Choosing the lesser evil

Bush&Co. lies -vs- the conspirationalist lies: what's the other option BTW?

Don't think we really know what happen on 911. Don't think we really want to know either. Ignorance is bliss, they say. Were these conspirationalists too?

Bomber Ran

A very funny video, and a succinct statement:

There will be many a sociology/psychology PhD thesis on the 9/11 conspiracy craze.

The madness of crowds.

This article is a complete

This article is a complete waste of time and space as it says nothing, except the usual ridiculing of "conspiracy theories".

So where is the wreckage of the Pentagon plane, where did the wings hit, how was Building 7 "brought down" a few hours after the "collapse" of the main buidings, without any structural damage, why were independent investigators not permitted on the sites, and why was everything shipped off to China to be melted down?

Why were people seen and photographed standing in the openings where the planes hit if the fires were so hot that they've melted the metal beams?

Why did the fire captain on the scene radio down a few minutes before the collapse that it wasn't a very big fire? Which was obvious, because the fuel in the wings broke into vapour when they hit and burned up in explosions and evaporated.

Wake up man, and unless you have something constructive to say, spare our time.

Ed Deak.

Right on, Deak. Truth is,

Right on, Deak.

Truth is, the evidence is very compelling (and I won't reiterate any of it here).

The Bush administration benefited enormously from 911. Those scoundrels have demonstrated an unbounded capacity for lies, deception and corruption at every turn. Why then, Mr. Struthers, is it so hard to believe?

The video is snappy and cute, but after viewing it, I felt like I had read yet another piece debunking global warming as a hoax.

Manipulation

Whether there was a conspiracy or not, what resonates for many is that it is not out of the range of possibilities.

Whatever facilitates the agenda!

Thanks, fiat lux. You rest

Thanks, fiat lux. You rest my case.
-Andrew Struthers

Anything goes

Well, with that attitude, anything goes. You can rule everything in. I think that, in fact, the WTC never actually existed -- it was a hologram created in the early 1970s when the planning of the Iraq war was begun by G. Gordon Liddy and Donald Rumsfeld. The aircraft crashing into the alleged building were merely a projection. The WTC "workers" were part of the conspiracy and are now under deep-cover, hidden by the FBI in Roswell. George W. Bush is not a Jesus-freak, C-student, alcoholic, but an evil genius, a brilliant actor, who can influence people's thought patterns by tapping into the "morphic fields". It's possible.

anyone that believes the

anyone that believes the american gov't was complicit in bringing down the wtc and bombing the pentagon is a sick fool and devoid of common sense.

alive

The conspiracy theories are believed because we do not trust Bush and his bunch of spindoctors.
We all remember the war to get the "weapons of mass destruction"!
as freebear said:
"Whatever facilitates the agenda!"

the religious mind

Whenever I hear conspiracy theories that start to sound more implausible by the hour, I think of David Ick's twelve foot alien lizards ruling the world through mass hypnosis and/or shape-shifting into Bush & company. At least that explanation is creative. Follow George Monbiot's article on the matter on his site by his name--as well, counterpunch.
Improbabilities are believed more readily than boring facts because most people already have had their baloney detectors damaged by religion. If I can believe a man talking to a burning bush hears the word of God proclaiming His rules, I can therefore have a mind willing to accept 12-foot lizards somewhere down the road.
As it has been said, we can have an open mind but not so open that everything falls out. Yes, there is evidence that 9/11 was a botched job, but let's not give Bush & company so much intellegence to believe that they actually conceived the whole plan from the beginning. They ignored. They covered up. They lied. But there is no evidence that they planned this event. If there are questions, they need to be answered, but let's not answer them in the same fashion that religion has done--speculation, pseudo-science, and unsubstantiated claims. The madness of crowds feed on this stuff.

Alive. Right on!

What is believable and what is not depends on the availability of truth. Most of the conspiracy theories are fueled by Bush's lies about WMD's and the subsequent evasion of truth. 911 has worked well for George W. After stealing one election the fabricated enemy gave him another on a platter. All that is enough to make people cynical.

Are the conspiracy theories on the mark? Who knows but the question will be George W's undoing. He won't be back, that we know, but he will go down as the worst President in U.S. history.

What reason?

I'm not a fan of the conspiracy theories but I think this article is a bit looney.

The reason there are conspiracy theories is because so much evidence was not released. So how do scientists come in on that? Science is about controlled experiments with all the knowedlge presented. 'Reasoning' from half the information isn't reason at all. Its just rationalizing.

I'd much prefer the conspiracy theorists and the scientific community band together to get full access to information on such events. An informed public has no need for fairy tales.

The word "conspiracy"

The word "conspiracy" originates from the Latin "cum spiro" or "breathing with, or together".

History is a thousands of years of chronicle of conspiracies by elites for some forms of energy control through the use of religious and/or ideological theories.

All wars have been and are fought for various forms of energy control by and for the benefit of ruling classes. Not by nations, but by the rulers of nations.

What we have today, and live under, is the biggest and most dangerous conspiracy in human history by a worldwide, international power elite, using the screwball theories of neoclassical market capitalism to extend total control over the world's resources and humanity.

In short, the biggest crime wave in history.

They will not stop short of committing any crime to achieve their goals, be it the manipulation of the stock and money markets, phoney free trade treaties to destroy democracy, the causing of wars, mass murder, or the free fall collapse of office towers.

This is not a "conspiracy theory" but well known and proven historical facts of conspiracies, going back 7,000 recorded years.

Now look for the politicians, all over the world, in the service and promotion of the "globally competitive market economy" and you'll see who the conspirators are and who are behind, buying and paying them .

Ed Deak.

*yawn*

*yawn*

Hyperbole

fiat lux wrote:

Jesus, Ed, get a grip. You think this is worse than say, World Wars I & II? What you have is a bunch of clowns and political hacks trying to line their pockets and feed at the public trough. You (and the 9/11 conspiracy lovers) give BushCo far, far to much credit. Molly Ivins had this crew pegged -- Bush is indeed a shrub, and a moron.

There was a great book about Joseph McCarthy called "A Conspiracy So Immense", and the whole red-scare phenomenon reminds me a lot of the 9/11 conspiracy fever (with the political poles reversed). This immense conspiracy has religious overtones -- a battle between the forces of good and evil, with Bush, laughably, in the role of Mephistopheles, and the 9/11 Truth Movement, also laughably, in the role of Jesus. And we of little faith just haven't seen the light yet. It's the same age-old story.

Who benefits?

Where did the thermite come from at the scenes of all three buildings? Why was wtc7 taken down with a controlled demolition and then covered up this very important fact? Who could be called to do this kind of work without planning besides the ones who already had it planned? Why did the Bush administration essentially do nothing in terms of investigating 911? And they did, folks, absolutely nothing. The 911 commission was a farce. The media of the day couldn't believe the lack of effort to find out what happened.

Who benefited? Which Corps benefited? Defense? Energy? Anyone shorting stocks? The Bush Administration? Larry Silverstein? The people of New York sure didn't benefit. They were told that the dust in the air was breathable and safe for weeks on end when clearly, this was not the case. Another big fat lie.

To many things don't add up. Just like Norwood. And Iraq's nukes. And Bush's justification for invading Iraq? 911. It doesn't add up like any other fight that the U.S.A. picks with lies for reasons. Andrew should wake up and try to ask a simple question... what do rich CEO's and multinationals really do with too much time and money on their hands? What do corps like Exxon who profit 37 billion in one mere quarter do with this kind of money? Maybe next, Andrew can get a job at a spin factory telling the masses how great a job corps like Exxon are for the environment.

I suppose if the writer of this so called story believes the U.S. is in Iraq for humanitarian reasons or for 911 or Iran must be invaded for humanitarian reasons... he can believe in Santa too!

Whats the Republican expression, "Got a forest? Cut it down!" No, thats not it. "Got oil? Drill it and burn it. We need jobs! Consume!". No, thats not it either. "The Iraqi's did 911 and have nukes!" No, thats not quite it... ah, here it is, "better to do business with the devil you know instead of the devil you don't", usually followed by, "you can't bad mouth our president, he's the leader of our nation". The nazi's thought the same way...

Here's some food for thought. George Bush was caught saying what he probably said over breakfast or the phone to the higher uppers, "If Iraq and Iran would simply allow a free market economy (world integrated stock market), we could all be friends." Imagine. If Iraq and Iran simply opened up their economy to foreign investment to be owned on paper by the U.S. born multinationals... we would have peace. But U.S. oil investors can't own these assets because there is no way to replace this government with a coup, so its war. Thats quite a revealling statement. Very revealling.

This is the second article

This is the second article I've seen on the Tyee that ridicules conspiracy theorists. Pretty lame.

On one side we have a group of people who investigate, using their minds and logic to ask perfectly sensible questions about 9/11. On the other side is the group of people who blindly accept the pronouncements of authorities, living their lives in deep denial about what the elite are up to on this planet, unable to handle the truth, and excoriating anyone who challenges the fantasy they cling to.

The anticonspiracy is very powerful. Those who believe it can be forgiven for succumbing to the relentless onslaught of its perception management techniques. But 9/11 should be the slap in the face. But if you refuse to look...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

Try this one for more

Try this one for more questions than answers:

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/

Take the time to investigate or your opinions mean nothing

Last summer I got my first taste of this conspiracy scenario. It was obvious, the whole world has been led like sheep to the slaughter by the power brokers inside the the USA running things from behind the scenes. Anyone who doesn't agree is either blinded or unwilling to face the truth. Some unmentioned items were, the 10's of billions of dollars of gold stored in the basement of WTC, and all the security exchange legal documents vaulted in building 7 stored for the trial in Enron and a few other high profile scamolas. How convenient that the gold items were carted off in huge trucks on that morning with armed paramilitary and the court documents destroyed to spare whom from embarrasment?

Not to mention the faked london and oklahoma city bombings.

The evidence is overwhelming period.
The USA spent 100times more money investigating Bill Clintons penis than the 911 fiasco.

As for all you who laugh at the possibility of an inside job, maybe you think your more schooled in political science than Noam Chomsky, have more awareness and insight than God Almighty and too proud to believe you've been hoodwinked by a bunch of ruthless souls satanicly influenced by greed at any cost. The evidence is overwhelming and just because you only believe CNN and mainstream media (gee I wonder who owns mainstream media) and are unwilling to look objectively at the facts, but are perfectly willing to numb your psyche and watch ads and buy toothpaste and hair colouring and listen to weather reports and hollywood studs and sluts and sports scores for 23 of the 24 hours in a day, day in and day out, doesnt make you wise or informed.

Make peace with your Lord and neighbour for the enemy is not fellow man, but the governments and corporations that have carved up this planet for profit and pillage. They have no second thought to murdering millions to achieve their deluded dreams of power riches and control.

Some videos on google or youtube for you..

Loose Change 2nd edition
In Plane Sight
Terrorstorm
911 road to Tyranny
Confronting the Evidence
Painful Deceptions
Coverup or Complicity
Truth and Politics
911 and the American Empire
911 Commission Omissions and Distortions
What I have learned about US foreign policy

That should keep you busy for a week.
if you still dont believe, then God has blinded you to the truth. I then suggest you pray like you have never prayed before.

Articles

Struthers's article above provides a link to the Popular Mechanics article that deals with the nonsense in Loose Change and other conspiracy sources. The latest issue of Skeptic Magazine also has a lengthy treatment of the issue (not available online).

If anyone has a reasonable refutation of either of those articles, they haven't come forward with it yet.

gawd

I rest my case.

me too

Me too.
Maybe I'd better look at my pet snake closer since he could be a Rothchild in disguise.

disbelief

I did not think that any of the 'conspiracy theory' materials were of any value whatsoever until the question was asked:

"What happened to the 100mm thick steel column in the center of WTC 1 & 2?"

This was the most telling question, when combined with the images of the 'collapse' made me start to take more of the materials seriously.

As Ed puts so well above, history says this has happened before...we are just rhyming with that earlier stanza.

Conspiracy theory?

Unless an accepted truth can be proven to be unequivocally true, thereby meaning no questions can be raised in opposition to it (which, in the case of 9.11 is absolutely possible), then it is not true. It is simply accepted.

Pentagon

There have been many documentaries on the events of 11 Sept but I have not seen one yet about what hit the pentagon.

It is not a conspiracy to notice there isn't enough debris for what was supposed to have happened there.

Try this site so far it's

Try this site so far it's the best one about 9/11
http://www.projectcensored.org

the Death of Evidence

BC Dude, uh, thanks for the link to David Ray Griffin, I guess he's "the best"...

Here's one to Alexander Cockburn

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11282006.html

He has a nice quote by a Canadian, University of Trent Philosophy prof, Michael Neumann:

This probably comes from the decline of Western power. Deep down, almost everyone, across the political spectrum, is locked in a bigotry which can only attribute that decline to some irrational or supernatural power. The result is the ascendancy of magic over common sense, let alone reason.

"

Prof. Neumann should try to

Prof. Neumann should try to read history.

One doesn't even have to read many books, just open up any encyclopedia at any letter and read the stories of regimes, of kings, emperors, war and religious leaders and any aristocracy. Always the same in any age.

The long string of conspiracies by all, the treasonous switching of sides, often on the battelfields, the broken treaties, the mass murders, the fraternicides, the conquests, the raping and enslavement of the conquered, always in the name of "Seigneurs rights", distributed by some deity to the chosen.

E.g. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were put into power, maintained and financed by the USA, until it was convenient to get rid of them.

Even the crashes of small planes are investigated for months, of airliners, like our Air India disaster, go on for years.

There was nothing of the sort after 9/11, the whole affair was brushed under the carpet in quick time and deep secrecy: "Now let's go to war against our former allies!"

Had there been proper, detailed and open public inquiries into why the planes were permitted to fly, independent examination of the sites and the wreckage, with bits and pieces still available for studies, etc. etc., there wouldn't be any conspiracy theories today. But there was nothing of the sort and a million questions remain to be answered.

I've spent 62 years, since I was lying in a primitive field hospital with a legwound, and then holding the legs of about 100 as they were being amputatated, seeing all the destruction and misery around me, looking and searching for the causes of how humanity can be willingly led into such idiocies as most wars, and for the common denominator of history's tragedies.

I'm not interested in the events and the years of history, only in the perpetrators and causes of these ever recurring crime waves, the religions and the ideologies, written off as inevitable events of history's constant repetitions.

Like hell they are!
The causes and the leaders are always the same predators and will be the same, until humanity comes to grips with the facts of elementary physical laws that can not be broken by any religion, or ideology, regardless what their priests and politicians claim.

In the meantime, the official whitewash of 9/11 stinks to high heaven for anybody capable of independent thought.

Ed Deak.

The Score So Far...

Andrew Struthers: 633 words
Ed Deak: 775 words

Dammit! I thought this was MY column.

-Andrew

CrazyTalk

For all those that missed this great thread.

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/09/20/CrazyTalk/

Should be enough content here to keep both 9/11 truthseekers and conspiracy debunkers busy for a few hours.

What are the elementary physical laws again?

Ed Deak:

What are the elementary physical laws again?

Please

Oh come on. The conspiracy cultists aren't interested in the evidence, of which there is literally tons. They are no more interested in evidence than a Xtian fundamentalist is interested in evolutionary biology. They are still saying that no one saw a plane hit the Pentagon, for Christ's sake, when there were plenty of eyewitnesses, not to mention the remains of the plane and the remains of the passengers. Debating it is like playing whack-a-mole. Prove one idiotic idea wrong and they just come up with a second; prove the second one wrong and they go back to the first again. George Monbiot is so right:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2017005,00.html

BBC reports some hijackers still alive

From September 23, 2001.

Hmmm, don't remember hearing an explanation for this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

And just who exactly made those stock trades?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=BOL20041218&articleId=320

Whack

kl wrote:

No, I don't suppose the coven would be reading about actual evidence. From Skeptic:

apollyon... Wealth is the

apollyon...

Wealth is the temporary control of energy.

Wealth can not be created only taken from other sectors, the environment and the future

Competition requires always increasing energy inputs, which also increase costs and ultimately burn out the systems.

Increased energy inputs, as necessary for war and hi tech, always cause increased and unwanted reactions, cutting into the benefits.

There's no "win-win" only "win-pay".

The higher the energy inputs into systems the shorter their survival and lesser and lesser the benefits. Newton's law on speed.

All empires go that one fatal step too far and self destruct.

I could quote a few more, but these should cover the spectrum reasonably well. We all learn them in highschools, then spend years in universities, being brainwashed to forget them.

The economics departments of universities should really be in divinity.
'
Ed Deak.

Double standards

G West why defend the Tyee when they arbitrarily remove commentators, arbitrarily censor commentators, this morning a comment I made on the Head scarf Hoola site regarding Quebec, due to what I felt was derogatory treatment of a Muslim female soccer player, was censored
Im not going to comment about what Y-A is saying over on the Free Speech. A True Test site.(I have copied and pasted the following comment for you)

[This portion of this comment has been edited for containing insulting content - Site Manager]

I will never stand up for the TYEE, who has proven tonight they have a double standards. Particularly after my treatment this morning I only wish I could undo all those people, that I suggested to that they subscribed to this site.

[This portion of this comment has been edited for containing insulting content - Site Manager]

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woody

With all due respect my friend, I've never much cared what other people call me. I have no power over their behavior.

There are a few things I believe in and I'll stand up for them as long as I'm alive.

One of them is that hate of any kind is despicable and must be fought at every opportunity. Whether it is hate of Jews or hate of socialists; hate of capitalists or hate of the French. What that creature has been doing there has nothing to with Tyee. Beers is apparently helpless to stop it because he hasn't got a technician on hand.

I think everybody has to stand up against hate wherever and whenever they encounter it.

I could care less what nightbloom says about a label I've given myself to keep my real identity a secret. The real test of each person’s humanity is what's in his heart and we show that when we stand up for what’s right – not when we slur and slander others.

Here is your evidence

Its called thermite, bozo's. Thats spelled T H E R M I T E !!! And there isn't a demo expert that will say wtc 7 wasn't demo'd after seeing the vids. And what, is there a one of you who can say GWB and Cheney are honest, loving and anything but hypocrites? For shame.

You speak it straight again, Ed.

History repeating itself and a bunch of "yes" men fanning the bad smells. Enough stupidity going around for everyone from the "there's no such thing as conspiracies, everyone in the world is nice, loving and sharing" crowd.

Elliot

Gulf of Tonkin
http://vi.uh.edu/pages/buzzmat/08972_text.htm
65,000 dead American military later........

Logic vs. Belief

The following website does a thorough job debunking the 9-11 Conspiracy Theories:

http://www.debunking911.com/

Not that facts or logic alone will be enough to convince any "true believer".

rotlin

All very well and fine, except it doesn't address the points raised by Fiat Lux in his first post.
Try again............

Crazy Analogies...

anyone that believes the american gov't was complicit in bringing down the wtc and bombing the pentagon is a sick fool and devoid of common sense

Gulf of Tonkin
http://vi.uh.edu/pages/buzzmat/08972_text.htm
65,000 dead American military later........

One cannot compare the Gulf of Tonkin to 911. If Bush had wanted to make senseless wars on the world, he and others could have relied on much less than what unfolded that day. The assassination of a single US official, etc. Maybe make up weapons of mass destruction in the country of choice.. . There are a number of ways that don't involve the death of thousands of Americans on US soil that has more often then not made the US gov't look ineffective and incompetent.

Not to mention the worst part of conspiracy theorists is they make certain governments look far more intelligent than they are. I think history presents a far better gauge of politicians and their motives than coincidence and conspiracy.

Quote:I could care less what

Correction: the multiple labels you've given yourself.

And it's not the guises in themselves, it's the dishonest way you've employed them on these threads over time, and in particular in some of your more strident exchanges with me in particular (though not just with me).

It begs the question: why?

I and most others here post under a single name. When people see a post by "Nightbloom", they know they're going to get a line of argumentation and critique that is recognizably consistent, which can be taken at face value, and which invariably stands on its own merits. If I were to follow your tactics and artificially create more bandwidth for myself by inventing multiple "characters" (your word) to reinforce my points, applaud myself, or tag-team and harass my opponents on these threads, then how credible would I be? What good would these threads be?

Just ask yourself what would become of these threads if everyone here with a strong opinion were to adopt your tactics on these threads. You've favoured yourself shamelessly at the expense of the quality of these discussions. It has nothing to do with your opinions, your ideology, or the labels you choose for yourself. It's your tactics and actions that I take issue with. You're a dishonest fibber and a stooge whose argument don't stand for themselves unless your oppenents are jeered and shouted down by a veritably muppet show of non-existant "characters".

This is the result when

This is the result when people are permitted to use nom de plumes, instead of signing their own names and take responsibility for what the say and do.

Newspapers have long discarded false names, so it is about time that these blogs do the same, so that people can't hide , especially under several names, for propaganda purposes.

Ed Deak, Big lake.

You're right,

You're right, Ed.

Conversely, there are some positive benefits to anonymity (and clearly a number of disadvantages, as Gwest/Alcibiades has unfortunately demonstrated).

The first is that those in sensitive positions feel more free to contribute their insights (although there is seldom any worthwhile "insider knowledge" shared on these threads).

The second is that it allows those susceptible to retaliation to express their views. This second reason might not be readily apparent to mainstream participants, but if you’re a Muslim woman criticizing patriarchal norms in your close-knit community, or a Vancouver gay man criticizing gay male drug-culture and the dealer-network that dominates Vancouver's gay scene, then anonymity is the only thing that permits your self-expression.

This is why I take exception to a bilious boob like Gwest/Alcibiades abusing the principle of anonymity for such petty and self-serving reasons. He has damaged the credibility of the forum itself.

There's no way to stop deceptive people from doing what he's done over the past couple years, so I think the best we can do is rely on moral suasion and common sense to appeal to the majority of right-minded participants not to abuse forums like this (and now thanks to Gwest/Alcibiades I can only assume that the majority of legitimate participants are indeed sound of mind!).

What story is the conspiracy?

It seems that people who believe the story put forward in the mainstream press concentrate on the physical evidence, and things that are far fetched, as evidence that non-believers of the offical story are wackos. However, one analyst of 9-11 said that concentrating on the physical was an impossible task since the evidence was destroyed or hidden and therefore the proof was difficult to attain. He said one should concentrate on who purchased the Puts on the New York stock exchange shorting the airline companies. In addition, he said one should concentrate on the four similtaneous airforce exercises occuring during the highjackings and specifically who was in charge.
Of course, those who believe the biggest conspiracy story, as put forward in the mainstream, conveniently ignore these questions and prefer to make character incriminations. It's an old trick, when the facts are not in your favour, smear the oppositions character.

Ed Deak

I think I may have done you a disservice the other day Ed when I stated that that only person who posts in the open regularly here at Tyee is Truman Green.,

I should have included you in that category and I apologize. There have been others from time to time I'm sure but to forget to include you was a mistake.

Truman ? Nana ?

I guess Truman (and Nana)took a pass on this...we all had a good debate going on the TYEE last September/2006 re: this " WTC 9/11 conspiracy " as the 9/11 anniversary approached.

Check the TYEE archives.

Conspiracy?

Well why stop there at 9/11?
Jimmy Hoffa disappeared about the same time as Disco appeared, not to mention Elvis "the King of Rock n' Roll " allegedly died soon after.

Hmm.

That nasty evidence

Worrywart

The physical evidence contradicts the conspiracy theorists, so yes, they don't want to look at it.

What I find most frightening is that so many people seem to not care if the evidence contradicts their beliefs. Their response is not to change the belief, but to ignore the evidence. If this kind of thinking is as pervasive in society as it appears, we are in deep shit. And as someone on the political left who has opposed the Rethuglicans directly (when I lived in the U.S.), I find it appalling that this 9/11 wingnuttery has become associated with the left. It does our cause no good at all to support far-out theories that have no basis in reality. Support for this idiocy is a gift to Bush & Co., just as the 9/11 attacks were a "gift" to them (it allowed them to bring in the repressive measures they so love, and to re-militarize American society -- and no, that doesn't mean they they planned the attack themselves -- they just took advantage of an opportunity).

Where are they?

Yeah, I was wondering where they were, not that I want them to be here...

booker:

Actually, I found much of the September 2006 TYEE 9/11 topic to be a good MOOT COURT platform to encourage and engage in debate.

The Pro - Conspiracy Side put forth their theories and premises.

The " evidence - suggests - it - was -NOT -an - internal - conspiracy " Side did likewise and rebutted.

Of course each side was adamant they were correct. So ?

However, every point made by one side encouraged a reasonable counter -point.

However, The "9/11 THERMITE - conspiracy fans" are really out to lunch if they knew anything about the demolition of buildings...which is always specific to the design. There are documentaries on TV that vividly illustrate it...and yes there are failures shown when things do not go according to plan.

Demolition via explosives is more a sophisticated harmonized orchestration with much less room for error than a Symphony Orchestra full of Yo Yo Mas and Yehudi Menuhins.

Errors can leave behind evidence, and a well - run conspiracy usually has a "lone gunman type" scapegoat(singular) not scapegoat"s"(plural).

Did Martin Luther King (or the previous Pope) have Thermite in the vicinity in the assassination attempts...?

C'mon folks....let's get back to reality.

Evidence

"The physical evidence contradicts the conspiracy theorists, so yes, they don't want to look at it". Nonsense, the vast majority of people investigating 9-11 concentrate on the evidence.
Again, who purchased the Puts? Who organised the wargames? The answers to these questions lead to the rabbit hole.
Not withstanding how WTC Tower #7 fell that afternoon after not being hit by a plane is a mystery to all, but those with their heads in the sand!

WTC # 7

Interesting link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center.

Also, every year between Dec. 24 and 25, presents are left under Xmas trees, hence verifying the conspiracy that Santa exists.

Next lesson we'll talk about proof of that long -eared rodent that comes 2 days after Good Friday.

Varmint

Excuse me a moment, I think I feel a sneeze comming on...ah.... ah....... AH....
"BLOW HARD".......

Rotlin rebuff

Nothing but an opinion link. There is no real footage of the damage to wtc 7 before it fell. Firemen were pulled out because it was stable, or because it was being wired for demo... take your pick. The photo "evidence" suggesting the undamaged section of wtc7 fell last, is not unlike any other photo of what a demo'd building looks like. The true tell to your link that puts it in its place as an opinion piece is the footage of wtc7 caught on vidio as it goes down. It goes down all at once on all sides, collapsing on the first or second floors, LIKE A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

George Monbiot

Sorry guys, but I'm with Monbiot.

"This neat story draws campaigners away from real issues - global warming, the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, privatisation, inequality - while permanently wrecking their credibility"

And Ed, I know my history too and even the Romans knew you could divert people's attention from the real issues with circuses.

911 conspiracy theories help Bush more than 911 did.

MAESTRO!

That's not a conspiracy! That's a warm & fuzzy fable!!

Now, if you want a conspiracy, just look at BC's "Liberal" government.....

Quote:Errors can leave

Or, in the case of the United States, creating an economic situation whereby the majority of people don't know if they are going to be working next week, would serve equally well to put WTC conspiracy(s) on a distant back burner.

apollyon

Read virtually anything by (the late) Richard Condon....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Condon

Pop quiz:

Ya'll notice who came right on cue when I mentioned rodent?

Blasphemy for the true believers

Here's some more focused links to provide answers to the questions brought up by the "true believers" so far in this thread. Some questions overlap so I refer them to the same link.

As Booker said this is a never-ending game of "whack-a-mole" and nothing can dissuade the faithful of their beliefs. If one of their conspiracy theories falls apart they have an unlimited number of others.

Q: where is the wreckage of the Pentagon plane
Q: where did the wings hit
A: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6

Q: how was Building 7 "brought down" a few hours after the "collapse" of the main buidings, without any structural damage
Q: Why was wtc7 taken down with a controlled demolition and then covered up this very important fact?
Q: Not withstanding how WTC Tower #7 fell that afternoon after not being hit by a plane is a mystery to all, but those with their heads in the sand!
Q: And there isn't a demo expert that will say wtc 7 wasn't demo'd after seeing the vids.
Q: There is no real footage of the damage to wtc 7 before it fell. Firemen were pulled out because it was stable, or because it was being wired for demo... take your pick.
A: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
A: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5

Q: why were independent investigators not permitted on the sites
Q: Why did the Bush administration essentially do nothing in terms of investigating 911?
Q: What happened to the 100mm thick steel column in the center of WTC 1 & 2?
A: http://wtc.nist.gov/

Q: why was everything shipped off to China to be melted down?
A: http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm

Q: Why were people seen and photographed standing in the openings where the planes hit if the fires were so hot that they've melted the metal beams?
A: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=4

Q: Why did the fire captain on the scene radio down a few minutes before the collapse that it wasn't a very big fire?
A: http://www.jod911.com/sounds.pdf

Q: Where did the thermite come from at the scenes of all three buildings?
Q: Its called thermite, bozo's. Thats spelled T H E R M I T E !!!
A: http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

Q: should concentrate on the four similtaneous airforce exercises occuring during the highjackings and specifically who was in charge.
A: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=3

Rick W

OK , howzabout this conspiracy fact.

The NDP , during their term in office, were universally acknowledged as " the 9/11 " of BC.

Do you realize, Rick W , that this Al Qaeda equivalent group in BC politics still held power in 2001..THE SAME YEAR AS 9/11 !!!!!

DO YOU THINK THAT WAS A COINCIDENCE RICK W....EH ? ..EH...!

WHAT ARE YOU HIDING RICK W ??

..AHA..I KNEW IT !!!

Where was Glen Clark and crew,they had lots of free time after getting their asses kicked out.

I heard they came " this close" to attaching some jet engines onto the Fast Ferries and heading " east".

WTC 7

Still standing as the BBC reporter describes its collapse. View it yourself...it's a hoot!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/280207timestamp.htm

You guys who have been hoodwinked have my sympathy, but it really is time to capitulate. The planet can't take much more of these crooks and murderers.
As to the Popular Mechanics piece, the editor
Ben Chertoff just happens to be Homeland Security's Michael Chertoff's cousin. Talk about "Coincidence Theory"!

Why No One Could Have Predicted The Collapse Of WTC 7
Building was specifically designed to have floors removed without collapsing
http://infowars.net/articles/march2007/010307BBC_WTC7.htm

Where does this lead?

Let's jsut say 911 was a hoax. A million people or whatever were in on it and they pulled it off. Fine.

Now, let's say they're all exposed. So what? It would mean nothing at this point in time except that the Repubs would have no credibility for about one election cycle. Time spent on it is a waste of time.

Watch WTC 7 fall

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Let's leave everything else aside. Somebody explain to me how 3 steel highrises collapse into their own footprints at free fall speed from fire....when it had never happened before, let alone at free fall speed. Nobody breaks the Laws of Physics. If the pancaking could have even happened, it would have to have been much slower.

The only explanation that fits the evidence is controlled demolition. Sorry, guys, you are just going to get your heads out.

Frank,

You have got to be kidding. Since everything that has been put into place from the SSP back to the War On Terror, is based on a lie, you don't think that exposing the fraud would make a difference?

No

Nope, why would it? Did exposing Gulf of Tonkin undo Vietnam? Did Watergate demolish the Repubs for more than one election cycle?

Did the knowledge that Churchill let Coventry be bombed or that FDR probably knew the Japanese were going to hit Pearl Harbour change anything?

No one ever cares years after the fact. If I was Bush I'd keep this conspiracy thing going for years. I'd pay for new websites to get set up and tv documentaries to be produced. Its a huge misdirection of people's interest.

Actually

Actually, maybe Bush's people are the ones behind the conspiracy theory websites :-)

He's still in office

and their Constitution has been gutted....on a false premise. In every instance you brought up, the knowledge of the fraud came out 20-40 years later or if it surfaced at the time it was promptly resubmerged.

Maybe you are just discouraged Frank. Maybe you are just overwhelmed by too many frauds to be able to think that pulling out the keystone of the latest series of outrages would make any difference in the stucture of the lies we buy into every day.

Frank, how come you're such a defeatist on this, yet you believe in the Afghan mission?

You buy into the whole construct. Weird!

Afghanistan

I realize some of the examples came out much later. However, Watergate didn't. It still made no difference. The Nixon era couldn't be wiped away, there is no do-over. I see the Bush thing being the same. If there had been a way to use this to get Bush out of the White House in the last election, great. But now we're talking almost 6 years after the fact. Bush will be gone soon anyway, the Dems are going to win the White House.

What could proving anything about 911 do now to change what's going on? In my opinion, nothing except that Bush will be even more hated.

Look at the Iran-Contra thing. Blatant disregard of the rules yet it meant nothing. The Repubs even won the next election under Bush's dad.

As for Afghanistan, I do buy into the mission but don't think that means I think we'll win. I simply think its the right thing to do, win or lose .

Defeatism and discouragement

I would admit to being discouraged. Canadians are no different. No exposure of criminal activity by politicians here ever leads to anything either. And in spite of all the promises the system never gets fixed. People vote based on their ideology, they don't care if the guy they vote for is Attila the Hun redux, as long as presses the right buttons.

I have hope

MaybeI'm pounding my head against a wall, but I think exposing 9/11 will make a difference.

Good night and let's have sweet dreams of truth triumphant....it couldn't hurt!

A few other things to ponder

10's of billions of dollars worth of gold bullion was stored under the WTC site.
There are eye witness reports of armed paramilitary type guards and a huge transport truck/s underground filling up with?? on that morning.

3 of the 4 black boxes were apparently found but not disclosed.

What are the flashes before just before impact on the WTC planes.

Weeks and months before 911 some WTC businesses were shuffled to different floors/locations of wtc 1 and 2 for "renovations". Interviews of some employees in the buildings reported loud noises like jackhammers etc. Also unprecedented power interruptions were occuring with regularity in the buildings whilst teams of "workers" were doing what?
Dont forget these buildings have redundant power and housed some of the most sensitive government offices and stock trading companys in the US, power shutdowns are not an option here.

George Bush's brothers company was in charge of security at the wtc site.

An unprecedented removal of the bomb sniffing dogs weeks before 911, these dogs were onsite 24/7 since the 1993 attacks on WTC.

Building 7 housed the security and exchange commission vaults where... all the documents for the ENRON proceeedings were kept, and conveniently destroyed. Who's butt was saved by this event?

As well building 7 was the command post nerve center for the mayor in the event of a disaster, it had recently been upgraded with bombproofing and its own air and water supply in case of emergency. The 2 SMALL fires on floor 5 and 12 were not enough to bring down the building in an exact duplication of a controlled demolition.

The mayor of San Francisco Willie Brown was warned the night before not to fly the next morning.

CIA Executive Director “Buzzy” Krongard managed firm that handled “PUT” options on United Airline Stock

Over $2.5 million is unclaimed on these put options.

On September 10, 4,516 put options on American Airlines were bought on the Chicago exchange, compared to only 748 calls. Again, there was no news at that point to justify this imbalance;… Again, assuming that 4,000 of these options trades represent “insiders,” they would represent a gain of about $4 million.

- [The levels of put options purchased above were more than six times higher than normal.]

- No similar trading in other airlines occurred on the Chicago exchange in the days immediately preceding Black Tuesday.

- Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Center, saw 2,157 of its October $45 put options bought in the three trading days before Black Tuesday; this compares to an average of 27 contracts per day before September 6. Morgan Stanley’s share price fell from $48.90 to $42.50 in the aftermath of the attacks. Assuming that 2,000 of these options contracts were bought based upon knowledge of the approaching attacks, their purchasers could have profited by at least $1.2 million. Merrill Lynch & Co., with headquarters near the Twin Towers, saw 12,215 October $45 put options bought in the four trading days before the attacks; the previous average volume in those shares had been 252 contracts per day [a 1200% increase!]. When trading resumed, Merrill’s shares fell from $46.88 to $41.50; assuming that 11,000 option contracts were bought by “insiders,” their profit would have been about $5.5 million.

- European regulators are examining trades in Germany’s Munich Re, Switzerland’s Swiss Re, and AXA of France, all major reinsurers with exposure to the Black Tuesday disaster. [FTW Note: AXA also owns more than 25% of American Airlines stock making the attacks a “double whammy” for them.]
On September 29, 2001 – in a vital story that has gone unnoticed by the major media – the San Francisco Chronicle reported, “Investors have yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits they made trading options in the stock of United Airlines before the Sept. 11, terrorist attacks, according to a source familiar with the trades and market data.

“The uncollected money raises suspicions that the investors – whose identities and nationalities have not been made public – had advance knowledge of the strikes.” They don’t dare show up now. The suspension of trading for four days after the attacks made it impossible to cash-out quickly and claim the prize before investigators started looking.

“… October series options for UAL Corp. were purchased in highly unusual volumes three trading days before the terrorist attacks for a total outlay of $2,070; investors bought the option contracts, each representing 100 shares, for 90 cents each. [This represents 230,000 shares]. Those options are now selling at more than $12 each. There are still 2,313 so-called “put” options outstanding [valued at $2.77 million and representing 231,300 shares] according to the Options Clearinghouse Corp.”

“…The source familiar with the United trades identified Deutsche Bank Alex. Brown, the American investment banking arm of German giant Deutsche Bank, as the investment bank used to purchase at least some of these options…” This was the operation managed by Krongard until as recently as 1998.

In all the hijacked planes the occupancy level passenger lists was about 60%, yet on every other flight on that day on similar routes the occupancy level was in the high 80's to 90%.

On the pentagon flight, the passenger list was made up mostly of CIA and military personnel.

7 of the alleged hijackers are alive and some have been interviewed post 911.

2 alleged hijacker passports were discovered/planted perfectly intact at the sites, when everything else around had disintegrated.

The pentagon plane made an almost impossible 270 degree turn to slam into the only part of the pentagon that was empty and had also been recently fortified. The plane completely avoided the most crucial offices in the pentagon where the most obvious high level targets were the secretary of defence and other high ranking military officials.

The pentagon plane hit at almost ground level going straight into the building, not even at an angle of any sort. Experienced pilots have stated its virtually impossible to manoeuver a huge passenger plane in such a manner, notwithstanding the shearing off of multiple lightpoles in the process whcih would have downed the plane.

The pentagon hole protruded through 18feet of reinforced concrete, only a missle could have done this paseenger jets are made of lightwieght metals except for the engines. The engine rotor at the site was too small to be that of a passenger jet engine and was found near the outside wall. This same size rotor is known to be of a type used in unmanned drones.

The pentagon, the most protected and video infested building in north america had no footage of the crash either inside or outside, even tho there are cameras every 50 feet on the rooftop.

67 times in the year previous to 911 the US air force intercepted aircraft within 7-20 minutes of an alert,with a 100% success ratio. yet on the morning of 911 they failed more than 4 times, even sending planes AWAY from the airborne targets.

Why were pentagon personnel and seen and filmed picking up small debris on the lawn? Debris that would be part of a crime scene and subject to evidence laws?

The 4 frames the pentagon did release of the supposed aircraft flying into the pentagon were timestamped the wrong day, and the aircraft is too small to be a passenger jet to be totally obscured by the tollbox in the foreground.

I'm not going to spend weeks typing out what is already available, checkout the videos I mentioned in my earlier post if you are seeking the truth. If you just want to spout personal accusatory rhetoric or love foxnews and american empire then you have already made and laid in your bed, and nothing will open your eyes.

As I've said before

On similar threads here at Tyee this same long litany of questions and hypotheses has been trotted out time and time again. Sometimes by the same people who're doing it this time, occasionally by someone new.

Occasionally there's the odd thing that's new and occasionally someone will post additional evidence from the investigation and analysis that's ongoing in refutation. I’m an agnostic.

And I'm also a skeptic. There are a lot of unanswered questions and there's no doubt that the administration in the US 'does' have a lot to hide.

What they and the civil aviation authorities are most anxious to hide - in my opinion - is their incompetence and potential liability. They are certainly guilty of egregious errors of omission relative to 9/11. Are they capable of being that incompetent? You'd better believe it - as everything that's happened since bears out.

These people are just not that smart.

On everything except Afghanistan I agree with Frank - although I respect his idealism - I'd sooner we expressed it differently. I think we could do a lot more to help Africa and leave the Americans to clean up their own messes in Kandahar.

WTC conspiracy logic

So....

If one recalls, The WTC building had an attempted "demolition" bombing in the 1990's , correct?

After that, a wee bit gun shy. ie now an offical certified terrorist target.

The terrorists realized after that that trying to undermine it like a tree and have it fall over would FAIL.

OK terrorists probably thinking ....what to do... what to do?

Something NEW.

OK Terrorists think "let's THERMITE the WTC building in a controlled terrorist demolition" ...(oxymoron..do suicide bombers place Legal Notices in the papers..or is it element of surprise? )

Given the WTC structure, and much of it unique open space design was based on the external walls as a crucial exoskeleton, there would be a need to strategically plant thermite on much of the external wall , as well as the internal core structure which bore much of the rest of the weight.

So, thousands of intelligent educated people who worked in the WTC every day , as well as security guards etc. YET ignored "people in various fake disguises " who were pulling out drywall , window washers, and other " pseudo- renovations " and planting funny looking devices on the buildings structural steel ie out -of -the- norm with either(i) wires attached or (ii) with radio transmission devices(NOTE: unlikley ...the doomed 9/11 emergency crews proved that radio-communication inside and out was poor or non existent)..... THUS back to "miles of wires" would be snaked all over the building and were "ignored" or overlooked , regardless of the odds and probabilities of that scenario .

To have the WTC buildings collapse as they did, pancaking vertically downward ( without any lean like a falling tree ) would require an absolutely perfect controlled demolition, NO mistakes, no margin for error. Like other controlled demolitions it would take months of work...with 1000's of sets of blind eyes ? ...and people willing to go to work to WTC that 9/11 day and die ?

Yep...the conspiracy logic is smooth and seemless, like sh!te through a goose.

HINT: When you Lefties and other conspiracy fans impress each other at societal revolution planning parties and squash beer cans against your heads...do you use THERMITE ???...please warn us first ...and drink the damn BEER FIRST !!!

PS didn't that first WTC bombing attempt in the 1990's have a terrorist leader captured and convicted who often wore a Santa Claus - like hat ? That means that either Easter Bunny or perhaps a Playboy Bunny is the 9/11 leader...using the same logic of Conspiracy fans.

Carry on, its still a free country .

The words "conspiracy

The words "conspiracy theory" are part of the same same string of buzzwords developed and constantly repeated by the professional mindbenders for the market economic theory, as: "free enterprise", "free trade agreements", "consumers", remember "throw away society" that went out of fashion 40 years ago (?), "prosperity", "wealth creation", "wealth creating foreign investment", "security partnerships", "globalization", "globalized marketplace", " competitive equilibrium",
"new government", "public private partnerships" , the fraudulent "GDP, Growth and Productivity" figures, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

As an old buster of communist propaganda, I could quote similar invented language used by them, but must admit, both the nazis and the comminists were kids playing in the sand compared to the neocon capitalist garbage now used to brainwash people.

With obvious, great success!!!!!!!!

There are no "conspiracy theories", only coverups for conspiracies by power elites on their way to world control.

I wonder when our neocons will start introducig the "electronic voting machines" to Canada, to " make more efficient and harmonize electoral systems with our great friends and biggest trading partners"?

After all, it is a tremendous task to manually count ballots, when it could be done and the winners declared by pushing a single button and then have all those unnecessary papers left for unnecessary recounts. (-:)

Ed Deak.

Maestro

Maestro, conspiracies about Whitewater and Vince Foster etc were the staple of right-wing radio and print right through the 1990's. And I won't even get into Glen Clark's deck.

No one can honestly claim the Left has any monopoly on conspiracy theories.

An excellent example how the

An excellent example how the the purveyors of the "theory of conspiracy theories" can get away with it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Ed Deak.

I must be crazy...

I guess I am a 'conspiracy theorist'. For example, in the September prior to the invasion of Iraq I proposed to my co-workers that I suspected that the US had decided to invade Iraq and were building up a case to suck the rest of the world into paying for it. I was faced with considerable anger. We were in grave danger from the WMD and terrorists from Iraq, I was told, and something had to be done about it.

It is noteworthy that I don't even have to define 'WMD' to anyone, even though the only WMD in Iraq were brought there by the USA in the form of Shock and Awe, and aboard their mobile nuclear weapons delivery systems (aircraft carriers).

Lucky for me, I am lazy. I am quite willing to let history play itself out. I don't actively investigate to see if there is evidence to support the theories. Those guys who do that are REALLY crazy.

I suppose I am a 'conspiracy theorist' simply because I believe that there are intelligent people out there who understand something important: If an outcome isn't going to go the way you believe it should go, there are tried and true methods for changing the outcome. These methods most often need the private cooperation of one or more people. That, I believe, fulfills the operational definition of a 'conspiracy.

Is it morally wrong to publicly state your suspicions of a 'conspiracy'? Is it morally wrong to publicly state that you believe a man is guilty of a crime, and/or to treat him as a criminal, even before he has been found guilty? I might suggest that both are wrong for the same reasons. Being pragmatic, though, society at large finds a way to overcome its compunction when it comes to the latter. And, of course, those who were suspected out-number the guilty by at least 10 to one.

I can easily imagine that I have been too subtle, but remember that I am lazy, as well as crazy.

Conspiracy theorists

Vernon, nice to see you. I happen to believe conspiracies happen all the time, its human nature.

But if you were George Bush or any of his Republican henchmen would you rather there were 65,000 websites talking about a 911 conspiracy or would you rather those 65,000 sites talked about things like what your government has done to the poor and the middle class, healthcare, schools, the climate change file etc?

Conspiracy fans

Who actually shot JFK ...( BTW a Left of Center Democrat ).

Was it Lee Harvey Oswald... or____.....or____....or____.....or_____

Do we at any point in time, given the UNcertainty, deem it a "conspiracy" ?

Or do we call it an "event" and let the truth and the facts ooze out over time.

In JFK's case 40+ years later, it still oozes out.

The evidence suggests " _______ " , not 100 % certain, but one can also EXCLUDE other hypotheses that have less credibility.

Juries are selected from all spectrums of society, "Just the Facts" mode please.

Seems like the same Lefties think God is dead, yet Elvis is alive, Al Gore( BTW: a Democrat) is " conveniently" a " truthful" expert, .....Gov't is smart enough to both create AND cover up WTC types -of -conspiracies, .....but Premier Gordon Campbell couldn't find a way to cover -up his DUI .

Yep!

( .....or as Comrade Frank implies, Ex- Premier Glen Clark didn't have the smarts to hire a Union carpenter WITHOUT a Gambling application pending when building his deck ).

It's almost always the Lefties that eat this conspiracy stuff up...even when its beyond the circumstantial evidence phase ...it's in fact a FACT they've lost, yet they still expand their even more bogus ideological fairy -tale societal revolution fix BS ......Lefties = "WTC is a neo-con conspiracy to foster______agendas" ...yet ignoring many of the past roots.

The Lefties come to these discussions in their figurative birthday suits , with only a jockstrap, and wear it backwards so as to protect their ass from getting kicked.

Yep !!!!

TGIF.

Jeez maestro.....you're

Jeez maestro.....you're getting really desperate with your "lefties this...lefties that...."

Can you imagine that there might be people who are neither, but try to use their heads and make their points based on logic, without constantly repeating propaganda buzzwords?

Are you guys getting paid for every time you say "leftie"/

Ed Deak

Ed: I K-N-E-W you'd be "

Ed:

I K-N-E-W you'd be " right" there when I used the " L " word.

How's the weather? I have had enough of this dragged out Global Warming " below zero " ...time for Spring .

Maestro

JFK was left-wing? Is that why he invaded Cuba and sent the military to Vietnam?

Its lefties buying tabloids that think Elvis is alive?

Clark "hired" his neighbour? And although you read my post you ignored the bit about Vince Foster and Kenneth Starr and Whitewater?

Your conspiracy theory is that only Lefties eat up conspiracy theories?

Hate to tell ya this maestro but in your few months on the Tyee you've served up one conspiracy theory after another about the Left. In fact, as conspiracy theorists go on here I'd have to give you the Oscar for most conspiracy theories put forward by a single poster. Its a right-wing trait, don't worry about it.

But I think you wanna turn on some lights, open the curtains, take off the standard right-wing issue tinfoil hat and stop worrying about the UN and black helicopters for an hour or two. Even the one-world gov't you guys are so afraid of take lunch breaks you know.

Bush

Frank wrote:

You hit the nail on the head. The Bushies absolutely love the "9/11 Truth Movement". It gives them good cover to do some real conspiring.

Frank: You asked moi....

Answers:

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

Vince Foster was hired by a Democrat(Leftie), and like most Lefties can't handle the pressure.

Yes

PS I think I'll stop there, don't want to be remotely condsiderd a " YES" person to Lefties. (Careful Frank...you show all the warning signs of a Leftie...)

Labels

To those who continue to label what they don't understand, remember one thing. Your maturity level will not develop beyond adolescence. Even when you do stumble upon an idea of some originality it goes unnoticed surrounded by the toxic winds of a blow hard. Refusal to change or act with an open mind is another sign of arrested development. You can't go straight to college from the sandbox. Of course I continue to hope for a different result by sharing wisdom. That's unlikely to happen, especially with the unaware. Just as Ed talks about certain principles in Physics that rule energy and matter, well the same applies to being a good citizen. Those who don't recognize this doom our society to fear and hate. Nice neighbourhood. Damn righties...... (That's a joke)
As far as conspiracy's go, I haven't liked the official government version of anything since they botched the JFK assassination. I use the lone gunman joke all the time. It's one of the big lies. We'll never know the truth and that's what is so depressing. The neocon agenda does explain a lot of the behaviour especially if you ask who is profiting, and I have no doubt that they will perpetuate evil to keep their power base. Thugs, thieves and organized crime, that's politics. I just don't understand why everyone keeps voting them in. It's obvious that the majority, and you too maestro, all inclination for independent thought has been eroded.
Go to your room and think abut what you've done...

Echo...echo...echo

Frank... Frank...frank...

Is there an echo in here...here...here....

clubofrome

Echo ? :

Only between your ear-skys.

OK Pot-Kettle -black-sky ?

Try again, there may be hope before school is out.

Yeesh.

Last Call

Drop the Lefty stuff and you can play with the big kids, otherwise people will ignore you. That's the message I'm reading. Echo...echo...echo...

club-sky

Typical Leftie:

Follow the(ir) rules...

Bye Lefty-sky(redundant)

Ed

Maestro is simply regurgitating his bible:

http://1984ministries.tripod.com/

Like the Aussies are wont to say: "No worries, Mate!"

I am especially fond of this one:

http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/bj050701-3.html

I am especially fond of this "coincidence":

http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/bj050701-3.html

Funny stuff

These conspiracy theories are better than the comedy channel.
The Viet Nam was was a hoax involving the sacrifice of 50,000 Americans and multi-billions of $$ just so "somebody" could get their hands on a few billion bucks worth of oil! Maybe!! ha And the anti war movement was funded by an oil company! ha ha.

Then there's the one about the world trade center being destroyed and 3000 people being murdered because somebody wanted to build a pipeline! ha, ha, ha.

Oh yes, and there was no evidence of a plane hitting the Pentagon! Except of course for plenty of eye witnesses, engines, black box, luggage remains, and remains IDing almost all passengers! ha No, nothing at all folks, must have been a missile! ha, ha.

Hey Brex, you forgot to

Hey Brex, you forgot to write "leftie" and now you wont't get a star!

You should take lessons from maestro ! Now, there's a guy who knows how to write "leftie" and the word "leftie" is included in every second, or third sentence, with brilliant logic, punch and emphasis that makes all the "lefties", who write on these "leftie" blogs, shiver and shake and wet their pants for having been found out being a "leftie".

maestro, I just wrote "leftie" 7 times, where do I get my good conduct medal and star? Campbells' or Harper's offices ?

Ed Deak.

A True Believer's faith must be strong

Major events tend to create a conspiracy theories. It's not the first time and won't be the last. The theories that the "True Believers" hold reveal more about their own wants and desires than reality. There are different sets of "True Believers" who each have their own
version of reality:

- The Holocaust didn't happen.

- Elvis is still alive.

- No Jews were killed on 9-11.

- 9-11 was a plot by the US government
to commit mass murder of its own
citizens.

With facts and logic against them the "True Believers" faith must be strong. Truthiness is a matter of the heart and soul, not the brain.

Any unanswered question is "proof" that the "True Believer" is correct and superior to any doubting infidel, who must be "hoodwinked" to not recognize the "truth".

In particular, if I point out an error made by "The Tyee Commentator True Believer"
(TTCTB) mopled that Ben Chertoff from Popular Mechanics is not
related to Michael Chertoff of Homeland security, as per statements from
Ben himself in the BBC video at: http://www.debunking911.com/links.htm

What will happen if I ask this particular TTCTB to admit that if she/he is
wrong on this "coincidence theory" then maybe she/he is wrong on other
theories as well? According to this TTCTB, if Ben and Michael are cousins
then that "proves" that 9-11 was a conspiracy. Does showing that Ben and
Michael are not cousins prove that only Al-Qaeda was involved? Or will she/he
only see this as a minor test of his/her faith and quickly come up
with more questions and theories?

If there are any TTCTB's out there that have an "open mind", with your
superior sources of information and knowledge of topics ranging from the
use of thermite, building design/demolition and aircraft crash wreckage
patterns, how about instead of asking questions you answer a few:

How many people and organizations would it take for the events of 9-11 if this was a consipracy plot of the US government?

If there was a conspiracy involving the US government to commit mass murder of its own citizens, how likely is it to have been kept a secret?

Ben's mommy says they are cousins

But who is Benjamin Chertoff, the "senior researcher"(at age 25?) at Popular Mechanics who is behind the article? American Free Press has learned that he is none other than a cousin of Michael Chertoff, the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

This means that Hearst paid Benjamin Chertoff to write an article supporting the seriously flawed explanation that is based on a practically non-existent investigation of the terror event that directly led to the creation of the massive national security department his "cousin" now heads. This is exactly the kind of "journalism" one would expect to find in a dictatorship like that of Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Because the manager of public relations for Popular Mechanics didn't respond to repeated calls from American Free Press, I called Benjamin Chertoff, the magazine's "senior researcher," directly.

Chertoff said he was the "senior researcher" of the piece. When asked if he was related to Michael Chertoff, he said, "I don't know." Clearly uncomfortable about discussing the matter further, he told me that all questions about the article should be put to the publicist – the one who never answers the phone.

Benjamin's mother in Pelham, New York, however, was more willing to talk. Asked if Benjamin was related to the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Judy said, "Yes, of course, he is a cousin."

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=66176

What's another lie, anyway?

Brex Baby

Have another laugh:
http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_nastybiz.html

is resistance futile?

if popular mechanics and chertoff are behind the 9/11 cover-up does that mean i can't trust the protective anti-rothschild powers of the tin foil helmet i made using the design from popular mechanics issue #466? is resistance futile?

Kurt, do your homework

If you are going to cite PM as an authority, you are going to have to look at this:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html

As Limony Snickets would say

A series of unfortunate events........

Ain't it amazing though, at how many coincidences (coincidii?) occur at these nexus points we call "conspiracies"?

When we talk about "true

When we talk about "true believers" perhaps it would be logical include people who believe in "free trade", "globalization" and that the Trilaterals, the Bilderbergers, the Davos WEF, the WB, the IMF, the SPP, the proposed NAU, the BCLiberals...otherwise known as the BC Reform and the Conservatives....otherwise known as the gegurgitated Reform... etc. etc. are not part of a worldwide conspiracy by a united, international predator class for global dictatorship under fraudulent economic theories.

To the best of my recollection, it was the Rotschilds who hired Zbigniew Brzesinski around 1973, to organize the Trilaterals, and force the the Chicago School neoclassical theory on the world, because "democracy was getting too strong".

We can see the daily growing results.

Ed Deak.

RickW

RE: Limony Snicketts

Actually, I preferred Jim Carrey in " Ace Ventura" and also " Left and Leftier" ...I mean " Dumb and Dumber" .

PS Stephan Dion should step down and let ol Jim be the Leader. Can you see him in action during debates, SRO eh! ...and not the SOL under the current Lib leader.

MOPLED: re: Controlled demolition

The "theory " of facts versus how about use some "real" facts ?

Silverstein(WTC owner) buys insurance...(gee a bit gun shy from the earlier terrorist attack in the 1990's) . Hey, we buy LIFE Insurance...does this mean we must have insider- info we are going to DIE ? Thus if we don't buy life insurance , we will be immortal ?

VERTICAL FREE FALL OF WTC = PROOF OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION ?
Controlled demolition often involves a specific orchestration of the explosives used . Many tall buildings are demolished whereby one side is demolished (via use of explosives) first, and then the other side is then weakened via use of explosives so as to "fall and fold" into the newly vacant area of the previously exploded side.

Pancaking methods (WTC vertical collapse)ie using explosives all at once is rarely used. It is a method probably the least tolerant for error and must be done perfectly.

MOPLED: Insurance Companies don't like to cut big cheques...if you have evidence that they were scammed, the pro-rata rewards " for -information -leading -to- the -arrest -and -conviction- of -guilty parties " on such things as $$$$ BILLION payouts are enormous... you could be a very wealthy person, screw the SUPER 7 or 6/49 tickets.

On the path to such $$$ riches....perhaps start with my earlier comment on how they could have "secretly" planted so much Thermite in the WTC building and then successfully sheared hundreds if not thousands of thick steel beams in perfect sequence to create an almost perfect vertical collapse. You are familiar with the WTC buildings ACTUAL design are you ?

My own personal "confession" is that for some strange reason OUT OF THE NORM of my daily morning routine , I decided to watch the News that 9/11 morning,...therefore I must have known something...I can't think of ANY OTHER reason.

Maestro

I disagree with your politics, but that line's funny.

Free fall

How they got the explosives planted is not for me to say, although there were numerous of reports of power downs taking place in the weeks before. What I find astounding is the inability of supporters of the official conspiracy theory to understand the highschool level physics of the imposibility of 3 steel high rises collapsing in their own footprints at about the time it would take for an object falling from the top of each to hit the ground if it were in a vacuum. Maestro, why act the fool?

The insurance part is fascinating. Two of the very biggest companies shared the risk out amoung smaller ones, leaving themselves free of liability. The re-insurance firm Marsh & McLennon was a major player and coincidentaly its offices were where the plane hit the North Tower.
http://www.8thestate.com/?page_id=45

falling

Perhaps you expected them to tip over like a tree? Btw, the debris was strewn far and wide -- they didn't collapse in the manner of a demolition. Regarding physics -- don't pretend you know any.

Such nonsense Booker

One of the things noted was that the top of one tower started to tip over....and then righted itself. What a miracle!
Here...educate yourself.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11_wtc_videos.html

After all the lies the Neocons have been caught in, the real miracle is that they still have defenders.

Don't you think it more than passing strange that Rumsfeld announces to Congress that
$2.3 TRILLION cannot be accounted for in the Pentagon on the day before 9/11.

That's much better than late on a Friday before a long weekend. How did he arrange that? Co-inky-dink again?

Mopled

Sorry, but many of us discussed this issue waaaaayyyyyy back on the TYEE in September 2006

While it is admittedly a good intellectual sparring/debating match, it is perhaps more a case study of why people believe..or more to the point why people WANT to believe.

A few years back, I read one of the Holocaust denialists' logic. It focussed on the Gas Chambers, which were one of the main methods used for mass extermination of people. Thus, the Denialist focussed on the Gas Chambers physical evidence ONLY,and took the stand that by putting reasonable doubt about the alleged gases used would lead to Holocaust denial. Ie such points as no evidence of the alleged lethal gases when the gas chamber bricks were analyzed.

It was an interesting read, but one could see that ones common sense was being bypassed and the OTHER massive amount of evidence was not being discussed.

If they caught Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh , most assuredly couldn't they trace Thermite purchasers? Can one purchase Thermite at Wal Mart aisle # 3569 ? The old National inquirer pays millions of $$$ for good dirt.

Nixon was impeached simply for a bungled Watergate Burglarly and WTC 9/11 conspiracy fans must admit their stretch of logic goes right up to the White House... which would indict Bush and Co..they hang em' high in Texas don't they ...?

The WTC was a "demolition" , the building was ultimately demolished, but semantically speaking, it was a terrorist attack that demolished it. Was it a controlled demolition ? ....well it was controlled via a planned terrorist attack.

Much like the Holocaust denial story I mentioned...because it may have looked like something, or appeared similar to something else does NOT mean it happened as such. One can be lead down a tunnel -visioned funnel -like path to the exclusion of some very basic facts, basic physics and even more importantly basic common sense.

If you and others WANT to believe 9/11 was a conspiracy other than the official reports , that IS your right. If you are trying to convince others...at least present a case that would stand up in court. Dots of separate facts exist, but they have to be connected. All I see in 9/11 conspiracy theorists is "Elvis lives" type of logic.

Homework: Do some more homework !

Specious Logic

The terrorists were not only in the White House, the Pentagon and on Wall Street, they were also in Langely and Tel Aviv. False flag operations have gone on for centuries. This is not new.

As to why people can not bear to recognize what happened with any conspiracy, is because life would never be the same. How does one sleep at night when one is dependant on the continuance of a scam. Wall Street folds if drug profits are no longer laundered. Everybody's pension plan depends on the scam not being uncovered. Close your eyes, it isn't happening.

Who is going to trace the source of thermate...the FBI...which continually ignored warnings from its own people in the field? You assume too much!

Here's the latest on the thermate planting in the towers.
http://www.rense.com/general75/thrm.htm

Since you bring in the events around WW2
read this before continuing. http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html

Re:Katyn forest massacre of

Re:Katyn forest massacre of Polich officers.

When the graves found and opened, I believe in 1943, the Germans invited an international group of medical experts, including from indpendent nations like Sweden, Switzerland who performed autopsies and came to the conclusion that the age of the bodies exluded the possibility of having been shot by the Germans.

Because the Soviets didn't sign the Geneva Convention on POWs, both the Germans and Soviets were executing and starving prisoners to death by the hundreds of thousands. Some 70% of the 400,000 Germans captured in Stalingrad died in the camps. I have met some who came back and their condition was incredible.

There were no pickups of the wounded trapped between lines, as they were on the Western fronts. We were ordered to shoot those we could see, screaming as they froze to death.

At one point we found our sister heavy machinegun squad lying beside a forest road in Silezia, with their throats, and we always kept our last handgrenade in case we were wounded.

Luckily, we were always running back by then and never caught any Russians, as I don't know what our NCOs would have done to them. The way some of them were talking of their experiences in Russia, they were sadistic maniacs, even in their behavour with us, their own troops.

It was a dirty war under dirty, criminal leaders on both sides and I shed no tears for the execution of the nazi leaders. The only thing I regret is that the same ranking officials and generals were not executed on all sides, as they were all criminals, regardless of nationality.

Read the autobiographies of Allied generals: "Orders were given that no prisoners were to be taken"

I've studied the history of the events for decades after the war and have no sympathy, or mercy for any of them.

Ed Deak.

Nuremberg was a Military Tribunal

That's the thing that struck me most about the article above. We've seen the Milosovitch and the Sadam versions of "American Justice", yet most of us have Nuremberg enshrined as some pinnacle of international law, when it was just another kangaroo court and just another set of nasties on both sides.

Moron the funny angle.

The only thing funnier than these conspiracy theories is the fact that so many doh heads out there believe in them. Its both funny and scary.

But while we are at it I hear that Saddam Hussien is actually alive and well, has had a sex change operation, and is living in Paris in a lesbian relationship with a "woman" who bears a striking resemblance to Osama Bin Laden. Hang on folks, this could be bigger than Barbara Olson being arrested in Poland for counterfeiting after being killed abourd flight 77!!! ha, ha, ha, ha ha, choke, cough, ha, ha.

mopled is tested but maintains his/her faith

The Tyee Commentatator True Believer (TTCTB) "mopled" keeps his/her faith and never admits any doudt.

"Evidence" from "American Free Press", is the best that TTCTB mopled can do against a BBC interview with Ben Chertoff himself where he states he isn't related to Michael Chertoff. Being a TTCTB means never having
to admit you are wrong about anything.

Using google, I find some interesting information about "Christopher Bollyn", the writer of the American Free Press article breaking the news about who Ben Chertoff is related to. Is this a reliable source? Not according to:

http://911review.com/denial/holocaust.html#bollyn

The American Free Press was founded by Willis Carto, believed by some critics to be the leading exponent of anti-Semitism in the United States in the latter half of the 20th century. Carto, widely considered a white supremacist, was co-founder of the Institute for Historical Review, which has championed Holocaust revisionism and has been accused of being a neo-Nazi organization. Carto also founded The Barnes Review, and the Liberty Lobby, best known for publishing the now-defunct paper The Spotlight. Carto and other editors from The Spotlight went on to establish the American Free Press.

But that's only one opinion. I Clicked on the AFP web site directly and see
where TTCTBs get their source of information that the mainstream
media all cover up the "real truth" with their "so-called facts".

Clicking on
http://americanfreepress.net/
there's a link on its front page saying:

Dig a bit deeper into the "Facts" that support the faith of the TTCTBs and you
uncover hoaxes and racists. But its all of us infidels who lack faith and are "hoodwinked" that require pity.

Unsurprisingly this TTCTB, along with the others, doesn't bother to answer either question that I asked despite my providing answers to their long list of repeated questions.

Sorry, that won't work

Bollyn was dumped by the nest of snakes at AFP last year. He seems to have been an honest but naive reprter who just wants to get at truth. Bollyn also thinks Duke is a phony.

I'm finding the attacks on the 9/11 Truth movement very interesting, from Monbiot to Michael Nenonen writing here in "The Republic of East Vancouver." They all seem to push the same point...Bush & Co are too stupid and the job was too impossible for them to coordinate, "They don't have the superhuman powers necessary to pull this off", says Nenonen.

So a man on kidney dialysis living in a cave on the other side of the world is more capable than a group of thieves who have illegitamately grabbed the reins of power twice and started two wars against totally innocent populations is more believable as the perpetrators?

Just who does Osama have inside? Why is Osama not even on the FBI's list as wanted for 9/11?

We really get to see who the left-gatekeepers are on this one.

Sorry Rotlin, I assumed your questions were retorical. How many involved in the conspiracy? I think Michael Meecher said under 1000.

Osama's best friend in the Pentagon

seems to have been Dick Cheney.

The timeline is important because if Cheney arrived at 10 a.m. it would have been about 20 minutes after the Pentagon was allegedly struck by a hijacked airplane at 9:38 a.m., too late for him to authorize the Air Force to shoot it down. Some 125 Pentagon employees perished in the attack.

Mineta testified "during the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, 'the plane is 50 miles out, the plane is 30 miles out.' And when it got to 'the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, 'Do the orders still stand?' And the Vice President...said, 'Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Since the airplane was not intercepted and destroyed, even though the vice president knew of it, "the orders" may have been to allow the plane to hit the Pentagon. All of this, and more, is contained in the March/April issue of "Tikkun" magazine, "a bimonthly Jewish critique of Politics, Culture & Society." The piece was authored by Dr. David Ray Griffin, a principal debunker of the accepted 9/11 dogma, and published by Rabbi Michael Lerner on grounds, "if his view is true, the position he articulates would provide adequate grounds for impeachment of the president..."

In Griffin's view, "the strike on the Pentagon was orchestrated by forces within our own government." If he's right, 9/11 was, indeed, the crime of the century, and what has been called a false flag operation involving the fabrication of evidence to make it appear the Taliban government of Afghanistan was complicit, paving the road for invasion.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/020307cheney.htm

http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/tik0703/frontpage/empire911

perfect demolition

Several commentators here discuss how difficult it would be to use thermite or other controlled explosions to create the perfect building demolition ie free fall into its own footprint. Odd how the random effects of a av gas ignited fire would result in that "impossible" to plan demolition.

Truman Green

Those who deny the obvious fact that 911 was orchestrated by a rogue bunch of traitors, including domestic and foreign intelligence agencies, continually trot out the old 'Bush is too stupid' pretense, straight out of the fakers' gatekeeping manual.

We know for sure that SOMEBODY did a conspiracy to destroy the world trade center buildings. The official theory is that it was Osama's motley crew of cave dwellers.

In order for the 'Bush is too stupid' pretense to make sense it is necessary to theorize that Osama's guys were smart enough to do it, but those who the so-called 'conspiracists' (including myself) accuse are NOT.

Personally, I believe sincerely that all of these anonymous mockers and fun-seekers know perfectly well that the buildings were blown up concurrently with the airplanes crashing into them and that the rogue elements of the American administration either orchestrated the event or stood by while it happened.

To suppose that the White House had no clue about the impending attack is not within the realm of serious consideration.

Although, Condileeza Rice denied it, there is ample evidence that the idea that planes might be crashed into buildings was not unknown by the American intelligence services.

And yes, Nightbloom and Ed Deak, your comments regarding G.West's identity charade (G.West-Alcibiades-Gerhardius--all the same guy) are extemely appropriate.
The anonymity allowed by this site has made it possible for cowardly people to make accusations without taking responsibility for what they have said, or allowing people with integrity to do any investigation of their personal or professional agendas--or even if they are members of the group which orchestrated 911. Remember IF 911 was an inside job, there will be a whole cadre of fakers and dissemblers appearing on forums to find out what the people have been able to figure out and to offer these stupid denials--including Andrew Struther's insipid film--which means exactly NOTHING, except Struthers thinks there is something funny about this issue.

And because of the anonymity of the mockers and commentors we know exactly NOTHING about any of them, with the exception of Ed Deak.

Anonymity is understandable only when the poster is bringing unknown important information to the forum which would in all liklihood put lives in danger.

Otherwise it's pure cowardice. Nothing said by such people should be taken seriously--especially all of the laughter and ridicule by Maestro et al.

The smoking gun will probably be the FBI's story about having all of the hijackers' names and DNA within days of 911, and, despite Bob Woodward's claim to have seen the names on the passenger lists, the truth is that there were NO names of the hijackers on the passenger lists--and all of the passengers have been accounted for.

For DNA found at any criminal scene to be evidentiary, it is necessary to have the DNA of familiy members with which to identify it. There's a very important interview between a talk show host and an "investigator" for Popular Mechanics in which the hosts asks the investigator about this. I've misplaced the link but I'll try to find it and get back.

Truman Green

I found the link. The site writer refers to the interview as: "Popular Mechanics debunker gets bunked." August 23, 2006.

Go here: http://www.truthcult.com/goyette_coburn_interview.html

It's bigger than Bush

and a long time in the planning.
http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair02212007.html

For a lot of these things, the left has a case of political Alzheimer's disease. That's the most gracious way of putting it--how they could immediately wipe from their minds every betrayal of Clinton Time, and heap all of it on poor Bush.

Brex Baby

http://www.rense.com/general19/camps.htm

More Whack-A-Mole with mopled

So Bollyn in your own words is an "honest but naive reporter". That inspires confidence. When it comes to his word vs. Ben Chertoff himself as to who Ben is related to I'll take Ben's.

Still not convinced that your faith is misplaced you come up with a new mole that needs to be whacked. In the quote from Dr. David Ray Griffin's article the appropriate context of what Transportation Secretary Mineta said to the 9-11 Commision
was left out.

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm

So, once again, another conspiracy theory relies on "shady" evidence using only misleading parts of testimony lacking the appropriate context. We get the answer but not the question. Dr. Griffen implies that Cheney was planning for the plane to hit, rather than the opposite, trying to stop the plane from hitting. Quelle Surprise.

So let's say there's a few hundred people involved in this alleged conspiracy. How likely is it that a few hundred people involved in a conspiracy to commit mass murder of their own country's citizens will
not have any whistle-blowers?

Truman Green and DNA

From this BBC story the FBI retrieved hijacker's DNA from the steering wheels of cars and hotel rooms. Two matches were
found from the 10 hijackers who flew into the WTC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2808599.stm

Not hard to find using google. Why didn't whoever is behind the conspiracy theory that the only way for the FBI to have any DNA samples of the 9-11 hijackers is if the FBI is also involved with the plot try using google?

Once again the True Believer's "evidence" is found lacking.

I dont like to attack individuals but...

Maestro,
attacking or mocking posters does not bolster the defence of your position, it only shows your level of immaturity. A point you seem to really want to drive home to the rest of us.

Brex, its obvious that you haven't even read or viewed any of the arguments that have been presented. If you did your comprehension level seems to keep you amused fitting the triangle into the square hole.

Lets not confuse the US government, with the military industrial complex (the biggest benefactor of 50% of the US budget worth $1,225 billions) and its cronies inside government, as well as the well positioned Bush family and all its past and present policy makers/neo-cons, and their corporate/global trade taskmasters.

These animals care nothing for the lives of ordinary americans or its army. The citizens are pawns and slaves to be enslaved, and the troops are the armed force of the corporate elite. The few corporate elite are now cashing in on years of consolidation with obscene gov contracts and ready to run with the money. US troops have been exposed to DU (depleted uranium) in Iraq and radiation poisoning is evidencing itself now in these troops.

Rotlin, serious replies please.

Yes, of course the FBI claimed they got the hijackers' DNA SOMEWHERE. Would you like one of your family members to be convicted because the police found his DNA on the steering wheel of a vehicle he rented?

The question asked in Mr. Goyette's interview with Mr. Davin of Popular Mechanics is this: How did the FBI match this DNA to prove that it, not only belonged to one of the hijackers, but also that the DNA was that of one of the people who they had identified as a hijacker.

That is: How do we know this person hijacked a plane, and how do we prove the sample found on the steering wheel belong to this person, who we have accused of being a hijacker?

For them to prove such claims in a criminal case they would have to prove that the DNA of the person driving the car was LOCATED at the crime scene--in this case ground zero in the world trade center rubble, after the planes had crashed into the buildings, suffered mechanical disintegration, and been subjected to fires of intensity sufficient to cause the collapse of the buildings.

After it had been established that the DNA was found in the rubble, the DNA must then be identified as that of a certain human being. It is likely that familiar dna sequences will bear sufficient similarity to suggest strongly that a subject belongs to a known family, and that such similarity will be accepted by a judge or jury.

The other possibility is that the FBI had, prior to the event, held DNA samples of all the hijackers--which had been previously been suitably identified--and it was this DNA, from criminal DNA banks which was used to identify the DNA found on the steering wheels.

Rotlin, I'm sure you're familiar with the Mainstream Media stories which appeared after 911 which claiming that several of the hijackers (identified by the FBI) had been found alive and well in various parts of the Middle East. The BBC, from whence you retrieved the 'steering wheel' information reported one of these stories. If one or several of these stories is true, the DNA samples found on the steering wheels would have even less evidenciary value than they do now--if that is possible.

All of which, Rotlin, begs the question: Is it not true that your description of me as a 'true believer,' might be just as appropriately applied to you?

So what?

First, I have problems with anything that comes from the FBI. An agency which was run for 40+ years by a cross-dressing queen with a gambling problem is not exactly to be trusted.

Second...what does the evidence( if correct and not faked) prove...that two of the patsies were actually on the plane? That's nice...it's a first, since they don't show up on passenger lists or CCTV.

Compare that to the pre-event announcement that WTC7 had fallen by CNN and BC...peanuts!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/050307yellowjournalism.htm

WTC+FBI+1993

Further to the unreliability of the FBI:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcbomb.html

Rotlin, I suggest you review this material:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11_wtc_videos.html

Unless you are a government sponsored troll, what I have posted should at least make you question the official story.

gordon:

Thanks for another discussion( ?) from that side of the political fence....aka another rant from the Leftie Bible( fill- in- the -blank).

I guess not only is Elvis alive, but so is " Vladimir L." the bald goateed Pickle in Red Square.

Maybe think again about JFK in 1963 ...the Zapruder film was the only real video record, was it not, ...it was the element of suprise, very quick action in a very short time, a few seconds.

The 9/11 WTC was also surprise attack, but it took a much much longer time to collapse and witnesssed via far more advanced communication methods available. (post Zapruder)ie almost 40 years after JFK.

News crews caught the WTC/ 9/11 action , as did many private citizens with camcorders et...as did millions of sets of eyes in the densest area of NYC which is one of the largest cities in the entire world. aka numerous witnesses.

Maybe they should have attacked some remote barn in Iowa...not the hot bed of media in probably the entire world.

Yep .....NYC a great place to do a 110 % perfect conspiracy. Lots of ears eyes and electronic recording devices...gotta cover all angles eh conspiracy fans? Gee all that audio visual evidence potential...where is all that proof?

Oh yeah....so well planned...covered their tracks with no evidence. Or, more to the point, avoid the facts, common sense et al stretch the logic....and drink the Leftie punch while doing it.

Onward to the People's Revolution to free the masses from the yoke of (fill in the blank of the Leftie Bible______).....eh comrade ?

PS Your lather n' foam is dripping out of the screen and onto the key board...where can I send the bill...which basement suite in the Republic of East Van ?

If you can't debate my points don't waste our time re-barfing the party line...many of us have heard it A-L-L before ad nauseum already, which further strengthens our case and weaken yours and those of other conspiracy fans.

Typical of "your" kind.

Conspiracies Closer to Home

http://www.eagleridgebluffs.ca/

79 year old Betty Krawczyk today (05 March), has been sentenced to 10 months in prison, not for protesting or obstructing the destruction of Eagle Ridge Bluff (so jet set skiers can get to Whistler without killing themselves as quickly on the Sea-to-Sky boondoggle we call a highway), but for contempt of court. Betty was sentenced, not for protesting the wonton destruction of the bluffs and the wetlands (so much for the green bandwagon our politicians have embraced), because protest is legal (so far) in this country, but for offending the "sensibilities" of the court! Talk about diversion and complicity! This follows on the death of Harriet Nahanee from pneumonia after serving 14 days in a men's prison for refusing to apologize to the courts for legally protesting rightista gestopo tactics.

Not a single paragraph is relevant, Maestro.

Maestro, in good faith I went over every single paragraph with respect and interest, and I found not a shred of intelligent rebuttal or even debate. This is quite strange because I know from past discourse with you that you are actually an extremely intelligent and competent person.

What are you doing?

Maestro, maestro, maestro......

All that is needed to refute your piffle is a single instance of collusion throughout the entire history of the United States, because one bad apple does indeed spoil the rest. And conspiracies abound in the history of that sick nation.

So quit wasting our time and Tyee space with your specious jabberwocky.

Some still believe in the lone gunman...

Even here on the Tyee, you will find the trained Zombies supporting all the official versions because to them truth means nothing and has no part in their lives.

Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at President John F. Kennedy. The second and third shots he fired struck the President. The third shot he fired killed the President.
President Kennedy was struck by two rifle shots fired from behind him.
The shots that struck President Kennedy from behind him were fired from the sixth floor window of the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository building.
Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle that was used to fire the shots from the sixth floor window of the southeast comer of the Texas School Book Depository building.
Lee Harvey Oswald, shortly before the assassination, had access to and was present on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building.
Lee Harvey Oswald's other actions tend to support the conclusion that he assassinated President Kennedy.
Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

Those of you who still support the official versions of these fabricated fantasies are just afraid that the rest of your pitiful beliefs are also wrong. You cling to these lies like you cling to the back of your mama's dress. It's all you have holding your life together. Once you admit it's wrong, your house of cards crumbles. The longer you cling to these beliefs the more pathetic and stupid you become. Then you'll believe anything. Like terrorists hijacked 4 planes, Crashing them into.... One the Pentagon, two others caused for the first time ever 3 skyscrapers to collapse by fire. 2 of them in about an hour! Where is the hanger where they are putting all these airplane pieces back together? When will that report be coming out? It's done?! The official story was written and it's not worth the miserly 40 million they spent on it. It doesn't matter what really happened. Be good like maestro, just keep consumming and doing as you are told. "As seen on TV." BAAAAAAAAAA

the truth

Look I don't understand what all this conspiracy fuss is about? I know Andrew, he has coffee at the local coffee shop and I talk with him now and then. I also know that he took flying lessons in the months leading up to "9/11" and went to New York on Sept 10 (that would be "9/10) and came back on September 12 ("9/12") and when he came back he was all burned up and had to spend time in a "hospital" run by the CIA where, miraculously came out looking much different than he did when he went in, minus the burns, of course... I also know that Mr. "Struthers" is a witch and frequently casts spells on people who come up with conspiracy theories; in fact, a number of people who I used to "theorize" with are now chickens...

as incisive as a butter knife

Sure Andrew, roll another sweet dungball up to the top of the heap of entertaining distractions about the evils of 9.11. But remember the sad part: there's been a million people (mostly "of colour") murdered in cold blood since (and because) that soap opera piece of false flag work saturated our fearful consciousness and penetrated our eyeballs with the sharp end of our greatest outdated edifices.

Are we just gonna let those slimey insiders all emigrate to Paraguay and pretend it really was just a forgotten footnote to Incompetence?? I'm not about to assist the real terrorists on this one, so I won't be adding another flick on Yu Tube.

Couldn't watch the stupid Struthers film

I tried to watch the stupid film but it up set me so much I couldn't watch more than a few seconds. (Not because I haven't seen worse, but becaue the Tyee would present it here.) It's an insult to everybody; those of us who sincerely believe 911 was done by a pack of rogue traitors with various agendas; those who had to jump out of the windows to avoid being burned alive; those who are sincerely shocked by the accusations of conspiracy; all the dead and injured, and the families of those who died in the infernos and airplanes. Of course Struthers, who thinks its all a big hoot and an opportunity to do some 'art' or business--and mock sincere people-- will probably never understand what I'm talking about.

Truman:

Truman old sparring comrade;

We have discussed this issue at length in the past, and you of all should recall this.

Why do these TYEE types re-hash it with the same old tired ILLogic?

What dost thou meanest via YOUR comments?

I 've laid out my case in rebuttal to the WTC- 9/11 many times...obviously they either aren't read or else it creates fear -and -loathing in Lefties, who seem to instead prefer stretches in logic and who also appear to exhibit a detest for any/all simple ,straightforward and reasonable explanations.

9/11 WTC conspiracy theories obviously have nothing that would stand up in court. If they did, many would be seeking remedy in Civil Court, as the Goldman's did with OJ Simpson when the criminal conviction didn't stick.

I mean, geez, what if the (2) plane crashes into the WTC towers had happened at night, then there would be far less recorded video evidence. I can then see people claiming any/all plane wreckage found later was planted, or placed there by Aliens etc.

Has anyone ever asked W-H-Y the alleged(?)WTC planes were flown into the WTC during the D-A-Y, surely they could have been flown at night...as night tends to be the best time to camouflage and hide things... much less obvious evidence, correct ? (NOTE: This question will probably stump the Lefties)

If TYEE posters want to rant on with bogus theories full of holes...that's one version of "free speech". However, once this involves "credibility", if they want to debate their own logic as well as others... do a proper rebuttal...or quit trying to convert the overly- preached to. This simply supports my own "theories" that Lefties cannot handle the truth, are often in denial, and change belief systems daily...and use all the aforementioned to rant on with other often hidden ideological agendas.

I mean, is that all the Lefties do, dream up conspiracy theories simply because they either don't understand the facts ,or are in denial of the facts and the reasonable conclusions derived from them...? Or else they simply try and explain the events in such a way that they now fit their revisionism agendas ? ...thus they must now change the facts and the theories till it fits their socio-political agendas ?

Truman..maybe the WTC was all about your Oil theories eh?(...and watch for those planes flying overhead , they are out to get you...with conspiracy comes paranoia ? ).

mopled raises another mole to be whacked

mopled - after your previous moles get whacked once again you bring up a new mole to whack saying with no citation:

Care to provide any credible evidence to support that statement? Preferably more credible sources than the "American Free Press" or Dr. David Ray Griffin that you relied on before.

As for the links you provided, I already have provided answers to many of the questions brought up already by multiple
"True Believers". Look at my second posting in this thread.

If all else fails, keep asking more questions to distract from your failed previous questions. So long as you can provide reasonable doubt then that must "prove" that 9-11 was a US government
conspiracy using "True Believer" logic.

You still have not answered my question regarding how a conspiracy to commit mass murder of their own country's
citizens that must have involved hundreds of people wouldn't have any whistle blowers.

Truman Green

My 'old sparring partner' Maestro. is capable of sophisticaed thought and flawless writing style. Instead, he (or she) writes this:

"I mean, geez, what if the (2) plane crashes into the WTC tower had happened at night, then there would be far less recorded video evidence. I can then see people claiming any/all plane wreckage found later was planted or placed there by Aliens, etc."

Why are you writing this nonsense, Maestro?

hundreds of people

Rotlin, it's interesting that your research draws you to the conclusion that an inside 911 conspiracy could have involved as few as "hundreds of people."

I agree.

No whistleblowers, Rotlin?

There are many whistleblowers. The case of Sibel Edmonds is a good place to start your investigation. Then go here: http//www.nswbc.org/press.htm

It's the site of the National Security Whistleblowers Council.

One of the tricks used by the government is to declare the whistleblowers' information 'classified.'

Of course, as usual Mainstream Media completely ignores whistleblowers.

And think about it, Rotlin. 99% of Tyee posters are afraid to identify themselves when commenting on this issue.

Imagine the fear factor involved if you have knowledge of wrongdoing by the most powerful agencies and people on earth.

Not to mention the fact that the conspirators don't think they've done anything wrong--only that they've acted to save the country or their agenda--whatever that may be.

Truman: C-A-R-E-F-U-L

Truman...old sparring comrade.

Careful...you are increasing suspicions that you A-R-E also G WEST... the patterns are becoming increasingly evident and the profiling evidence is also building .

Conspiracy ?

He has already exposed ie confessed his multi - personas one of which is G WEST = " ALCIABIDES ". (FYI Check out the current TYEE Topic on Boys in classrooms)

Many of us suspect more false TYEE multi- person personas trying to fool us.
Quite the TYEE scandal.

You posted a suspicion of G West = Alciabides, way back, didn't you..... but maybe that was a Red Herring ..the "least likely suspect" in order to divert attention. BTW Where's Nana ?

You are not reading into my 9/11 WTC " Flight at Night " comment (posted earlier) very well Truman. I hate to spoon feed Lefties ( not that I am necesarily implying that you, Truman, are one too...) but one has to time the inserted spoonful in sync with the Leftie ranting .

Maybe try again...Ignoring a reasonable postulation or a rebutted comment is not necessarily debating, (except for party line Lefties).

Lots to look up rotlin

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_911.html
will provide you with enough to keep you busy for years

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911flaw.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

Cry for help!

maestro.... how many people have to tell you that your blathering here is annoying? Personally I think you've had a mental breakdown, seek help.

Club-sky

aka The re-incarnated piss ant ...originally a ..d-r-u-m r-o-l-l..a piss ant!

Typical Leftie. Avoidng the overall debate...can't debate even spoon fed points.

How many fake TYEE personas do you have?
G West holding thine hand ?

Now , infinite piss ant...go take a flight to Leftie land-sky...and take your therapissed with ya. Remember, Kindergarten is only 1/2 days and try to get your diaper changed before they come to pick you up.

Ciao.

Clarity

One name one person. Get over your paranoia. I authorize the Tyee editor to confirm my one and only log in. clubofrome. That's it, freak. As far as debating goes, you don't debate. Anything you say is lost in a babble of leftyisms that are as incoherent as anything posted on the Tyee. Are you totally oblivious to what others write? Anytime someone mentions this you stand behind your mama's skirt saying we make up the rules!!!! This would explain why you are using the reference of kindergarden! Don't listen to me anymore, you have a blind spot as you mistakenly think you know something about me. You don't. So listen when others say:

Why are you writing this nonsense, Maestro?

Jeez maestro.....you're getting really desperate with your "lefties this...lefties that...."

Hate to tell ya this maestro but in your few months on the Tyee you've served up one conspiracy theory after another about the Left. In fact, as conspiracy theorists go on here I'd have to give you the Oscar for most conspiracy theories put forward by a single poster. Its a right-wing trait, don't worry about it.

...and that is just this thread, asshole.

Club-sky: Keep it comin'

Your mask is cracking and falling off in pieces , Club - sky:

Pretty soon we'll have another TYEE masquerader exposed....its becoming nauseatingly obvious.

PS: Conspiracy re the Left....sorry , but conspiracy INVOLVES INTELLIGENCE AND A GOOD PLAN , ya Moron.

Therefore, there is a MASS C-O-N-S-P-I-R-A-C-Y by the INTELLIGENT MAJORITY to keep the Lefties out and keep them out...BUT only trumped by the Lefties usually cutting their own throats or shooting themselves in the foot,whichever come first..usally its simultaneously.

You keep tipping your hat...Club-sky. Exposure day soon.

Lefties are only a mythological beast, based on no one could REALLY be that stupid as to be one...yet some feel a might testy when the word Leftie is mentioned..

BTW Club-sky ....are you a Leftie???

Club-sky

Do you actually beleive it is that difficult to have 2 or more TYEE identities ?

Don't try to throw a Red Herring about " you authorize the TYEE editor to confirm your one and only log in".

Who cares...and it means nothing.You obviously think its OK if its one of your like- minded peers. Still don't get it..eh laddy or laddy-ette ?

Typical Leftie.

Yeesshh!

The ultimate "leftie" site

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Mopled

Of course you are "correct" Mopled.

However, a FURTHER review of the link seems to indicate a conspiracy of " backside cover" .

Many of these IMPORTANT people are elected officials and military types...who were employed as such during 9/11 in 2001

This indicts them as "gee why didn't you higher ups know about it or stop it" Sorry the BUCK stops there, in their laps...but yet they are trying to pass the buck along.

Seen this stunt many times before....

Seems like most of them have read the TYEE conspiracy theories...given their desperate attempts to connect the dots.

Its simply conjecture, insinuations and suppositions..and I really couldn't find any new or (?) nuggets in those rather glib and surficial droppings.

One of the best sites, yet.

Very encouraging to know that this many professional, experienced patriotic Americans have stood up to be counted regarding the 911 Commission--and especially so many people who held responsible positions within the intelligence, military and security communities.

I'm working my way through the statements now and trying to cross check the identities, but it's quite obvious that Mainstream Media has been ignoring such people. It's starting to appear that big media as well as fake 'alternative' print and online media are doing their best to control information regarding those in high level positions who have questioned the official accounts of events of 911.

That's my take too

Truman:
Compare this example to the endless "Air India" - a fiasco in it's own right - but Canadians are digging and go on digging.

Somehow the Yanks should be happy with what they know to date about 911?

T'anks God some of them are willing to say something about what they see themselves!

I suppose Maestro and Struthers

must be thanked for supplying such a dumb opposition, but with those who can not allow themselves to see,it seems the quality of the evidence makes no difference.

this little Piggy

Karl Rove will not even be questioned in the Libby case.

No wonder so many Yank authorities are trying to make sense of 911.

It is very obvious that lower echelons will be "hung out do dry" if possible

Mopled - little to read

Mopled - It's hard to take anything you say very seriously when you post comments like the following:

not mine

it's not my style, rotlin

Libby's conviction could start the dominos

Cheney's chief of staff, Libby, was obviously the fall guy, but with luck his conviction will help expose the conspiracy to dishonestly take America to war in Iraq, and the willingness of the White House to endanger the lives of its own intelligence people if they didn't support the conspiracy. Hopefully, a domino effect is in its nascent stages.

I wonder, rotlin, if somebody in the White House was trying to frighten whistleblowers and people of courage and integrity.

Wilson and Plame are doing a civil suit against the government for its conspiracy to silence dissenters, as Wilson was, in his refusal to support the White House pretense that Saddam Hussein was seeking uranium in Africa.

mopled: WARNING !

I see no one took the challenge to debate many of my points...

Given that the dots are no closer than before, and the lines to connect them are perhaps even more fragile, why bother? I suppose this is why certain factions in society become irrelevant and ignored. They want to believe in certain things , come hell or high water, and follow the party line. aka Don't let conspiracies like the facts,logic and reason get in the way.

Such logic establishes the existence of Santa and the Easter bunny. Now be careful, Xmas is over, but that Easter Bunny may come disguised as a suicide bomber.

Rant on, but try not to insult the intelligence of those who see so many holes in the 9/11 domestic conspiracy.
T-H-I-N-K....and not rely on links and passing the conspiracy hymn book around.

Quit all the rope-a- dope crap....it got Ali rather punch drunk,look what happened, he can't think too clearly after it's all said and done.

Maestro's 'WARNING!'; 'be careful, Truman'

Maestro's comment to Mopled: "Warning," and his comment to me: "Be Careful, Truman," are veiled theats.

I believe that threatening behaviour is not condoned on this forum and I think that the Tyee editor should consider deleting such comments in accordance with the commenting rules.

Maestro complains that: "Noone took the challenge to debate many of my points."

Noone 'took the challenge to debate' Maestro's points because he hasn't made more than one or two serious debating points, only offerred a lot of ad hominem jibberish, which I think is a good description of his latest post.

Truman: Conspiracies in BULK AISLE sale today?

So Truman ....

Conspiracy rumours true ???

You are G WEST and vice versa..the TYEE's Lon Chaney?.

BTW: The " WARNING " is for the "Easter Bunny suicide -bomber" ...that's all....(not that you wouldn't want to start another conspiracy via purposeful misintepretation now, correct?...) just TYEE comrades putting forth other conspiracy theories that are in sync with others' ROTFLMAO ones.

Some people can't get enough of them...what's a few more ? You can tell they are losing when they scrape the very same bottom of the barrel they are also subletting.

C'mon Truman...the hard core evidence is suggesting Truman Green is also_________.
PS Where did you " bury " Nana ? or are you " her " too ?

PS: quit opening Mopleds' mail, it wasn't addressed to you Truman, that's an offence...unless the shoe, of course, fits.

Maybe one last shot...

I love it! You still see spooks! Oh my god, that's funny stuff. You see multiple personalities everywhere!!! Whew.... ouch... my sides hurt. I love a good laugh in the morning, gets those "endolphins" flowing! You are right out of the "Cuckoo's Nest." Doesn't it make you angry when people figure you out? Your attempts at acting normal destroyed and now you have to change your identity again or face constant ridicule. I'd say you have replaced Ron Erwin as the laughing stock of the Tyee. Congrats big guy! Go buy yourself another trophy for your wall of shame! Sit it right beside your best Blow Hard awards! Whew...... ouch.... You don't know when to quit! Getting up off the canvas every time you are KO'd is not a sign of intelligence!! The judges scored it unanimous, get out of the ring.

The US Left was castrated years ago

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

Criticism within the Democratic Party of AIPAC is carried out very quietly. The consequence for any Democratic politician who is identified as speaking ill of the powerful lobby group is a political death sentence. However, from Washington DC to California, the message is much the same -- AIPAC and its allies are wearing down the patience of a number of Democrats who see the organization as a Republican and neo-con Trojan Horse within the Democratic Party. Next week, AIPAC will be holding its annual convention at the Washington, DC Convention Center. The gathering is bound to create more angst among Democrats -- with both Democratic presidential frontrunners, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, tripping over themselves in seeking AIPAC campaign support.

The schism within the Democratic Party appeared when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi refused to allow ranking member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Jane Harman of California to become chairman. Pelosi was backed by powerful House Defense Appropriations Committee chairman John Murtha. That set off a battle for the House Majority Leader position between Murtha and Steny Hoyer of Maryland. Hoyer handily won the election while Pelosi supported Murtha. Hoyer's sister, Bernice Manocherian, has served as an executive president of AIPAC.

The controversy about Harman arose after she attempted to interfere in the Justice Department's investigation of AIPAC for espionage. Harman's links to AIPAC sank her chances of becoming HPSCI chair. Harman reportedly agreed to work with Republican chairman Peter Hoekstra to avoid an investigation of the cooked up pre-war intelligence on Iraq in return for the Bush administration going easy on the investigation of AIPAC officials Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, both later indicted for receiving highly classified documents from Israeli Pentagon spy Larry Franklin. After the Libby trial, the next major bombshells are expected to come from the Rosen and Weissman trial, set for June 4. The AIPAC conference next week will undoubtedly be readying for public relations spin for June's "perfect storm" -- sentencing for Libby is scheduled for June 5, the day after the Rosen and Weismann trial commences.

The last straw for some Democrats is quiet but firm backing from AIPAC-allied politicians and special interests for a presidential pardon for convicted former Vice President Chief of Staff Irving Lewis "Scooter" Libby. Even as Libby was being found guilty, the Libby Legal Defense Fund announced a new member had joined its advisory committee. He is Charles Heimbold, Jr., former Chairman and CEO of Bristol-Myers Squibb Company and a former U.S. ambassador to Sweden. Advisory Committee Chairman Mel Sembler, the former U.S. ambassador to Italy whose fingerprints are found on the transmittal of the bogus Niger documents from Italian hands to the Bush administration -- one of the incidents that led to CIA Leakgate -- said the following about the conviction of Libby: "Scooter is a good man and a distinguished public servant who has been wrongly accused."

Other Libby Defense Fund advisory committee members who continue to support the convicted felon include Mary Matalin, former aide to Dick Cheney and wife of Democratic Party insider and Hillary Clinton supporter James Carville; former Education Secretary William Bennett; former HUD Secretary Jack Kemp; former Attorney General Edwin Meese III; former Senator Don Nickles; former Rep. Bill Paxon; former Clinton Middle East envoy Dennis Ross; former Senator Alan Simpson; Hollywood straphanger and former Senator Fred Thompson; and former CIA Director James Woolsey. The one question that can be asked of all these and other Libby Advisory Committee members is: "Why do they hate America so much?"

Libby Defense Find features this photo of Libby with Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai. Libby once penned a novel titled "The Apprentice," which featured pedophilia, bestiality, and rape. Karzai is rumored by our Afghanistan sources to be an aficionado of "boy dancers," underage male strip dancers that are popular with Karzai's fellow Pashtun warlords. One reason the Taliban banned music and dancing was to eliminate the attendant sexual exploitation of boys by the Pashtun elite.

AIPAC has huge influence

It's not possible to judge the validity of any article, including the one above, (no references) but if one takes a long hard look at American politics it's not possible to fail to notice that the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee has had a very major influence on American politics. It's the number one lobby group in the country, and has consistently backed candidates who will ensure that the United States continues to align its priorities and interests in the Middle East with those of Israel, including continued hostilities towards Israel's enemies in the region.

Whether true or not, the often voiced impression is that it's very difficult for a house or senate candidate to be successful without the endorsement and financial assistance of AIPAC--the most famous lobby in the world.

King of Jordan

Spoke to the Joint US government houses this morning.
Aired in it's entirety on CTV and ignored by CNN.
Chenny sat with Pelosi behind the King and they all gave him at least two "standing Ovations"

As far as I could tell the speach seemed to paraphrase Bob Marley: "Lets get together and feel all right" but more informed folks seemed to think it was more than that

club-sky

There you go again..

Another psycho rant, this time against Truman and Mopled...probably others.

Truman and Mopled are at least reasonable...

Club-sky: Are you a homeless 2 year who is fed with a slingshot from about 1 Km away..ie healthy distance.?

If not, then maybe you should go back to after school care before the teacher finds out.

I knew it, Maestro...

All the times I said "I knew you were going to say that, Maestro," I was just kidding, but this time I really did know that you were going to pretend that Clubofrome's comment referred to Mopled and I.

He was talking about you, not us.

strange thing

So much of this space is taken up with one contributor dissing another or defending his/her previous dissing.
What is the point of all this? What does any of it have to do with the article above?

I attend other forums on the Internet and though few spend so much time whacking at other contributors they tend to post complex moving comics to repeatedly say: "Good Morning" or "Good Night" or some other trivia.

What do you imagine you are doing here?

I check thetyee for useful information and occasionally I am pleasantly surprised

doggone, stick to the topic, eh

Physician, heal thyself, doggone, ole buddy, eh.

You coulda put us back on track by coming up with your version of reletavia.

Okay, I'm whining here, but actually it was Maestro's successful ploy to derail the discussion that derailed the discussion.

What did Israel know of 911?

Excellent article posted on Counterpunch by Christopher Ketcham:

http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html

There are still a lot of unanswered questions.

Truman:

No Problem:

I accept your apology, and your confession, and I thus absolve you of your whatevers.

Remember we went through this same pattern the first go around on 9/11, in September. If you recall, you posted that YOU thought that I thought you were a flake...and I retorted, and I said that was not the case at all, I respected your opinions in the sense they were intelligent and you put much effort in them.

9/11 is one topic that will go on and on...debated for years. Let's accept that, and I have seen nothing to inspire me to change my opinion.

Other issues you have certainly enlightened me on aka the Oil issues. Much of what you provided on that issue makes a lot of sense. That is one "conspiracy" perhaps many of us had previously bought into.

The TYEE is a unique forum to discuss and debate various points of view...and we most certainly make use of it.

You knew I was going to say all the aforementioned , correct?

PS I will now call back the planes that were headed to the trailer park, (except for one I can't seem to contact...LOL)

What happened to all the slashes, hyphens?

What apology, Maestro? And what confession?

What happened to all the hyphens and slashes and inappropriate colons? Being, of course, paranoid, Maestro, I think that all your goofy writing is just a camouflage for a brilliant and devious personality. And oh, having a ridiculously good memory, I remember when G.West-Alcibiades pretended that I had apologized to him months ago. What a coincidence, eh!

Regarding threats: Maestro, as if you didn't know...For you to write,"Warning," and "Be Careful, Truman" are THREATS, and inappropriate and should be deleted according to the commenting rules.

Also: A couple of thugs hired by SOMEBODY did very seriously threaten me (as a warning) when I was on my way home from the library where I had just finished a post last year. I've pissed so many people off (both on and offline)that I don't know who hired them, but I'm posting it here as a notice that it happened. If the editors don't think this is appropriate, I accept their opinion and that this might be deleted.

And yes, fuel hydrocarbons are not 'fossil fuels.' But don't wait for any foundationalized fake scientists to explain it to you. Just go look at the photos of liquid hydrocarbons on Titan, photographed from the Casinni-Huygens flyovers. Of course, mainstream media avoids the whole issue by not showing the photos. (except of Saturn, avoiding Titan where the lakes are apparent) Luckily I'm in touch with one of the world's most famous astronomers who sent me the links. I posted them a few weeks ago. Requests? I'll post the link again. I don't have it handy.

Truman:

Tell you what:

If you have any proof of who those goons who threatened you are....post their names...even any remote evidence of their ID's.

If you think I am making quantifiable threats....well suffice it to say Truman, NO....I AM ON RECORD AS NO,I AM NOT.... you are making stretched inferences.......keep THIS post handy for future reference.

You yourself confessed to admitting you didn't know what I was going to say...hence not what I was actually trying to say. (aka I am politely hinting that you are getting a bit "paranoid", maybe its all those conspiracy theories....)

As a comraderie- based advice...I do think people should not let it all hang out...and stating their actual names. The TYEE assures us of confidentiality...and there are many very valid reasons for it.

This is a free speech forum...and often far more free speech than the tradional media would allow. One psycho wingnut with a grudge who reads a person's R-E-A-L name and can use publically available information and "hunts them down" would certainly make the TYEE and other media,BUT would also effectively shut this forum down while everyone bails . I think there is a bit of a TYEE peer responsibility to others to ponder such negative potentials.

My advice is you, Truman, C-H-A-N-G-E TYEE N-A-M-E-S...and I wouldn't say that if I didn't give a sh!t,correct?....there is no conspiracy in any of that, is there?

Please let me know if there is.

David Ray Griffen replys to Monbiot

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/080307Monbiot.htm

Almost beyond belief...

How any person with an IQ above l00 or so could possibly believe that the steel beams all failed simultaneously is truly one of the great mysteries of the entire issue. Nothing else would account for the perfectly vertical free fall which only exceeded the natural descent of falling objects by microseconds--or so.

Assymetrical descent would have been the only possible mode of collapse if the fires had truly destroyed the structural integrity of the columns as the bizarre Bizant-Zhou engineers'report claimed. (Is it even remotely within the realm of possibility that the fires had exactly the same effect on each and every single beam?) And for a truly amazing work of magic, Bizant and Zhou had their entire engineering report--(without a few alterations which they made a week or so later) in support of the official collapse theory--published within two days of the event.

Neither the 911 Commission nor Nist mentioned wtc7, of course, except to briefly say that the liklihood of fires weakening the structures sufficiently to cause collapse was highly unlikely.

Here's how the Popular Mechanics debunking worked: Dig up all of the unsubstantiated claims made by the conspiracists and proceed to debunk them--ignoring the important claims, of course, like the fact that none of the hijackers' names appeared on the passengers's list.

And get this: There were not even any Middle Eastern SOUNDING names on the passengers' list.

Bazant and Zhou

Read the Bazant and Zhou report here: "Why did the World Trade Centre Collapse?--Simple Analysis 9/13/01. Journal of Engineering Mechanics. ASCE

That's 9/THIRTEEN/01. These guys are fast, if nothing else.

all-time weirdest 911 interview

I saw and heard this with my own eyes and ears. The only interview that even comes close to this for hilarity was the Tavis Smiley interview of Chris Rock that I heard on KCTS this morning--except that Chris Rock is TRYING to be funny.

Evan Solomon, the excellent CBC guy had Lee Hamilton, co-chair of the 911 Commission on his show.

Solomon asked Hamilton something like: "Did the 911 commission mention world trade center building number 7 in it's final report?"

Hamilton answered something like: "Uh...I don't know. I can't remember. I'm not sure."

I've paraphrased the whole exchange, not having a transcript, but this is essentially what they said.

Here we have Mr. Commission himself, doing the 911 Commission and not being sure if the final report mentioned wtc7--or not.

found the entire interview on the web

I found the entire Solomon-Hamilton interview. I got the exchange basically correct. The relevant wtc7 section is about 85% down the page.

Here: http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/911hamilton.html

expecting this section to be closed at any time

I have found it most interesting so far.
Makes me wonder why there is no other source even playing with the topic (except, of course, some web sites provided here)
One comment in one of the links stays with me:
"Until we deal with 911 there can be no progress on the environment or (roadmaps to) world peace" (the quotation marks indicate what I retained from the published material, not exactly what it said)
I have spent many hours reading the sites linked here.

I'm about to go back and get lost there again.

cobwebs

100 year conspiracy by dumb scientists

Still on the subject of conspiracies, here's another one: that fuel hydrocarbons are 'fossil fuels'

Go here to see the methane lakes on Saturn's huge moon, Titan.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia09102.html

Then here for an explantion: "Fossil Fuel Theory Takes Hit With NASA Finding"

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2005/12/2/01046/8384

It's the corporate media, dummy...

No offence, doggone. There are at least a hundred million people in North America who suspect that there's something wrong witht the official 911 account, but big media pretends that only crazy people believe this. The problem is that media is controlled by the people whose interest it is to deny the existence of rational opposition.

The corporate control of information is the biggest scandal in the world today. In fact it's control of information is so total that even if 90% of the population doubted the official stories, it's doubtful that anything could be done about it. The web has been infiltrated by moles, spies, net nannies, dissemblers, people posting fake debunkings under numerous anonymous names--and even fake 'alternative' press sites which exist only to obscure and control the information about 911 and other major hoaxes such as the nonsense that hiv, a harmless retrovirus causes AIDS, which is a toxic--not a viral--trauma to the human immune system.

we are still here?

Hi Truman:
I guess it was your post of the link to Solomon's interview that had me busy. I'm a slow reader but that was very interesting.

Looks to me that the only personal action is to reduce exposure - less reading of newspapers and
No tv.

I did that quite a while back

Once news on the net was available, the newsprint I read became the local free monthlies like Common Ground and the weekly Straight. By that time, the G&M was no longer reliable and who would bother with the local dailies except for the classifieds.

The CBC has been putting neocon biased spin on the news for quite a while, but I still watch the National.... if there's nothing else to watch at that time.

Truman:

I knew you were going to say that, Truman.

Oh yeah, and that other thing as well, besides the thing before and after it.

They're out to get us!

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm#reporter

Sorry, i didn't mean to post that; THEY have gotten to me.

Remember conspiracy theorists, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

Hey, Gizzard

Just to refresh, all columns would have to fail simultaneously, an impossibility without explosives.

birdstomach, you've heard of resistance?

The debunking site you provided promotes the old 'pancaking' theory, which everyone from NIST to Bazant and Zhou have discarded for this reason:

It is absurd to imagine that if pancaking was the cause of the collapses, near free fall would have occurred. Pancaking, or collecting of floors with ever-increasing accumulation of energy, speed and mass would have required absortion of energy at every floor, and absorption of energy never occurs without the element of time.

As the floors came together on descent, energy absortion and the aggregation of intermittency would have produced a longer time period--and certainly precluded the possibility of a near free-fall.

NIST rejected the pancaking theory because it could not produce a model of collapse that accommodated a 'no-resistance' requirement.

In fact, the most likely scenario is that if pancaking was a contributing factor, there would have been 'stuttering' or stoppages of descent lasting from microseconds to whole seconds or or even minutes.

And the pancaking theory does exactly nothing to explain why the concrete slabs were completely pulverized into fine particles of dust. Noone has ever explained this pulverization without introducing explosives into the collapse models.

If you can locate an explanation for the fact that 100% of the concrete was pulverized into the huge dust clouds which rose above the buildings, I would be very interested in knowing about it.

As Peter Jennings said, while watching the video supplied by his camerman: (paraphrased) "It certainly looks like a demolition to me."

I'll find his exact words and get back.

Peter Jennings

Of course this doesn't prove anything, but interesting, wouldn't you say, birstomach?

Jennings, within seconds of the collapse of the South Tower speculated to his reporter, Doh Dohler:

"If you wish to bring ah...anybody who ever watched a building being demolished on purpose knows.. that if you're going to do this you have to get at the .. at the under infrastructure of a building and bring it down."

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/retractions/jennings.html

And more about Jennings' speculation

There is another very interesting observation to be made about Jennings' speculation that explosive would have been required to bring the buildings down.

Noone has ever suggest that Jennings meant to say that the destruction of the building was an 'inside' job and certainly, as far as I know, Jennings did not make such an accusation.

Certainly he was thinking that whoever had the ability to divert airplanes into the buildings, also had the ability to plant explosive devices.

Why has it been rejected out of hand that this is what happened--even if the official theory about Osama's people doing it is true. I would imagine that overcoming the air defences of the United States, as well as the intelligence serevices of the CIA and Mossad,
which in all possibility would have infiltrated the players in such a conspiracy, would have been at least as difficult as clandestinely planting explosives in the buildings.

time to get serious here...

The official theory relies upon the claim that the fires weakened the vertical structures to the degree that they failed.
The problem with this is that steel is an excellent conductor of heat and the 250 (or so) steel columns would have acted as a heat sink to the effect that, even if the sections of the columns adjacent to the airplane crash sites were glowing white hot (which nobody claims), the preponderance of the steel below the crashes would have remained at room temperature for a much longer time period than passed between the crashes and the collapses.

OK..Lets settle this 9/11 once and for all.

I think the only way to resolve this 9/11 conspiracy vs NO conspiracy issue is to create a reconstruction of the events. This method has been used in many crime scene investigations .

We can rebuild exact duplicates of both the WTC towers. We will have the conspiracy fans in each floor of one WTC buildingIe for a total of approx. 100 ... and fly a remote controlled jet plane into it and the conspiracy fans take notes from their given assigned WTC floor.

They can also see if there is any thermite going off when the non hologram plane hits the building.They can also listen for the usual 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1- demolition countdown which is proper demolition protocol for each floor, as this fits their controlled demolition theory.

My rough calculation is each countdown for each of the 100+ floors will be allotted .1 (1/10) seconds . (No stuttering, sneezing or bathroom breaks......you will hold up the experiment.)

The OTHER WTC building will have NON conspiracy fans watching from a safe distance and another remote - controlled jet liner crash into it.

Both groups can compare notes and report their findings. ( Well at least one group should be able to ).

That should settle it once and for all.

PS Truman, which floor do you want to reserve ? You are allowed a doppleganger.

Truman:

C'mon Truman:

Your QUOTE: " the fact that 100 % of the concrete was pulverized into the huge dust clouds " needs to be seriously clarified,

You are implying that explosives were planted in literally ever sq.in. Demolition is maximum "bang for the buck", (no pun intended). That is literally impossible to pulverize every cubic inch of cement into dust..we are now talking nuclear devices.

Pulverizing 100 % of the cement via explosives is simply ludicrous, virtually impossible, and especially using a contrarian argument etc. that it actually was pulverized into dust therefore it must have been explosives etc.

Explosives send shock waves and there would have been even more broken windows.... haven't you attended any Vancouver blasting demolitions ( I have personally witnessed 3 of them ). Windows in adjacent buildings would be shielded as a precaution to this. The WTC collapse would have had windows popping outward in sync with the alleged controlled demolition blasts.

Please get the facts, quotes and context straight if you wish to even remotely attempt to support your conspiracy theory.

how many times do we have to go

over the same ground...cutting charges don't explode...they burn the steel like acyetlene.

Again, you are asking for explanations which we don't have, i.e. how was the concrete pulverized. That it was is not in doubt That is exacly why a new investigation has to take place.

What has been emphasized is what is provable, and since the collapse of the towers defies the laws of physics...and common sense, it couldn't have happened without inside help.

And that's the truth, and you're just going to have to get used to it maestro.

Maestro, try googling: concrete pulverized.

Go here, for an example, Maestro:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/concrete.html

The pulverization of the concrete is probably the least contested and debunked fact regarding the collapses.

I can understand why you're shocked by it.

If you don't believe Fifth Estate...

http://www.cbc.ca:80/fifth/lies/

Maybe those who debunk conspiracy or don't should all just... play this video...

People who debunk 911 should watch this:

http://www.cbc.ca:80/fifth/lies/

People who talk about how the U.S. government could never have done this or that... just watch the video. Its telling.

I saw it last year

and caught the Seymour Hersh section again this week. What struck me was how wrong he was on the neocons being ideologically driven. After all the looting which has gone on during the Bush years, ideology has been proven to be a fig leaf for crooks.

9/11 WTC conspiracy fans :Calling all lemmings

Check this Link out:

(if you dare...)

http://www.jod911.com/WTC%20COLLAPSE%20STUDY%20BBlanchard%208-8-06.pdf

This puts cyber- thermite to many of you conspiracy fans and your theories...park it with Roswell, (at least they had an ALIEN to autopsy).

obscurantism and assumption

Much of the paper posted above is just that.

Below, we get back to basics:
http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/g/CraneAndCommonSenseByFrankLegge.pdf

Maestro, do you think we're complete idiots

I started reading your explosives experts until I got to the part where they claim that noboby asked them to do this expensive study of the possibility of explosive involvement; that they did it entirely on their own initiative and at their own expense.

The conspiracy theorists such as myself claim that the explosives were placed in the basement in order to take maximum advantage of gravity--which is EXACTLY what your experts say would have happened IF EXPLOSIVES WERE USED, but their argument is that of course no explosives were used so the explosives couldn't have been placed in the basement.

This study is for people who are not familiar with semantic trickery which is always available to obscurantists and dissemblers of information.

The Bazant and Zhou engineering study which was completed and published two days after 911 employs the same dishonest tautological argumentation.

Maestro, videos for a rainy Saturday

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/61.html

What do you make of this...from Fox, yet?

How could I forget this?

Maestro, you are going to love this one:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/Bollyn-Fuji-WTC.html

Question: what's the best spy agency?

Maestro, do you really think the Osamans could have organized this amazing feat of sabotage without the world's most fantastic spy agency knowing all about it?

You do understand just how good the Mossad is don't you? Nothing of this importance could have possibly happened without them knowing...as if you didn't know.

Then there is Ptech

We've never really discussed the software problem of 9/11.Here's something on Indira Singh, whistle blower on Pteck

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012005_ptech_pt1.shtml

Bolyn found out recently that the real owners of Ptech are Israeli although that does not let Saudis and the Bushs off the hook.

Think of the Mafia model. This is a global crime syndicate and they all accomodate each other.

And that mushroom cloud above...

www.cbc.ca:80/fifth/lies/

How many lies did we hear from George Bush to invade Iraq? Click on the link and there's 37 minutes worth of GWB lies and propaganda spin to keep those war drums beating. Its sobering when we hear the exact same arguement for the invasion of Iran with warships on Irans coastal waters...

You see, ever faithful in your governments, what gets it for me is not the way the twin towers went down. Planes obviously hit them. Wtc7 is quite another story that suggests insurance fraud on a grand scale. And since wtc7 had floors rented by the CIA amoung other government agencies, and the Bush family knew the Bin Ladens, and Osama was already once previously on the CIA payroll, the big question is, for an an empire that has lied its way to every single war its fought, some say even with pearl harbor so this goes back perhaps at least 55 years or more, for anyone to tell me I should just "trust" the government... just "trust" George Bush"... we had to go to war in Iraq, we had to make war in Afganistan, we had no choice...

One thing is certain. The Republican administration and quite possibly congress had more to gain financially and electorally with this "event" occuring than anyone else. And it would have had its corporate sponsors.

Someone above asked, "if you conspiracist theorists would have rationalized it, just how many people would it have taken to pull off 911?"

The answer to the question is this. How many people did it take to pull off the needless war on Iraq? People would never think the war on Iraq is a "conspiracy", but can it be called anything else other than this?

How many CIA agents would it take to wire wtc7? How many people worked on the worthless 911 commission? How many people would it take to pull off one of the biggest insurance frauds in history? When a good handful of CEO's and government officials of the highest are corrupt, the rest are simply yes men and if they go against the grain, they simply disappear or get blackballed from existence. What are we expecting... CIA agents to come out of the blue with stories to the media that will what? Publish or report it? Oh, I get it. A Larry Silverstein will just someday... admit guilt. Like the chorus of all of the inmates in San Quentin, "I'm innocent", were we really expecting a different tune?

It would take the involvement of hundreds, mostly CIA and military and some CEO's and banks in the loop... and less than 15 - 20 people would know the whole story. So while posters come on to this story and slam those who cry conspiracy, take a look at fifth estate's story. Or maybe fifth estate isn't quite... good enough to take seriously these days. They're from the CBC, after all.

Come to think of it, isn't the CBC going up for sale? Its apparently not up to Harpers well connected Republican standards...

Just watch the vid:

www.cbc.ca:80/fifth/lies/

Your link is worthless, Maestro:

Assertion #5 is what I find to be completely baseless from your link. Debunkers of thermite have claimed its traces have come from "melted computers" to "it never existed to begin with", to "arial photo's show major wtc7 damage" without any photos to back it up or any other proof otherwise. They sound as bad as conspiracy theorists with their "proof". At least the conspiracy theorists have thermite "as proof", never mind motive. Your link is smear, nothing more.

There are plenty of smears that are alive and well to this day. The war, excuse me, invasion of Iraq is the most recent. "They had WMD's." And now Iran apparently has them... or some day could you know, so lets invade.

You know, its funny. When you listen to GWB speak, sometimes you get an idea of what it is that he say's to his "friends" at the breakfast table or clinking glass with cocktails. "If Iraq and Iran would just open up their markets to the world, we would all be friends." Yah, he said it. About 2 months ago, GWB said this. And what he's really saying is that if the middle east opens up stock markets to the world for foreign investment so that the U.S. can own them on paper like they own us Canadians, everything will be just fine.

GWB is a corporate mouthpiece. Thats all he really is. A corporate spinner for hire. Dumb? Not much dumb about him. He's just corrupt is all. When Exxon profits (thats profit, not gross revenue) 37 billion in one quarter, does anyone here really think that a congress or whitehouse can't be bought? They bought his old man... like father, like son.

But hold on! Wait! George Bush is a Christian! He can be trusted!!

Just watch the vid.
www.cbc.ca:80/fifth/lies

Truman:

OK

You asked a very straight forward question:

..." do you think we are complete idiots " ?

(BTW : that wasn't a "threat" , was it?)

I will reciprocate with a straight answer.

No, I don't think you and your conspiracy comrades are C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E idiots.

Nobody is 100% perfect...well " almost " everybody is NOT 100% perfect.

There are INcomplete idiots...or NON complete idiots.....but then again that may imply a default premise, ie = 100 % Idiot...

See....Now you have got me really thinking Truman, such is what happens when philosophy meets conspiracy theories.

Thermite-ically yours

M.

Truman:Re: Mossad

Mossad is admittedly very sophisticated, probably one of the best intelligence agencies in the world.

It ALSO serves one of THE smallest countries in the world.

It can't stop much, it's also one of the " less -peaceful " countries in the world.

My point is...not a "feel good" bit of info re: national security and national autonomy.

So,.... your point is......?

stooge hijackers leaving tracks

As almost every one of the millions of 911 skeptics now understands that the stooge hijackers were running around the United States leaving tracks and hints that a sabotage operation was under way. Condaleeza Rice claims that there was absolutely no way that the intelligence services were alerted about an imminent attack with airplanes flying into buildings.

I've supplied this information on the Rothschild thread. Would you like me to dig it up again?

My point is that the tracks purposefully left at flying schools were SO obvious that a team of boy scouts could have figured out what was about to happen if they had been given the mandate.

Several of these people were under FBI surveillance.

These 'hijackers' were travelling back and forth between the Middle East and the United States. The FBI knew that Middle Eastern people were trying to learn how to fly large jet aircraft.

Does the term 'connect the dots' have any meaning for you, Maestro?

And we know it wasn't 'incompetence,' so what exactly was it that prevented the multiple intelligence agencies, including the Mossad, from preventing the attacks?

This question is one of the major loci of the entire 911 skeptics movement.

Truman

Maybe look at BIRDSTOMACH's link again...

Excellent photo of the WTC from a high vantage point.

Notice what's left at the bottom "after the event"

Re - read the last link I mentioned.

Connect the dots...its like constellations . The only one that makes remote sense is the Big Dipper and Little Dipper...all others are a real self serving stretch.

.....Like these conspiracy theories.

Brain

Brain:

Welcome back.

However, did it take that long to get it back from the shop for an overhaul?

Maybe see if its still under warranty.

Have a good one.

Truman: Conflict of Interest.

So its true.

You are being PAID to write all the 9/11 conspiracy theory stuff.

You stated my last link's author wasn't paid.

You did NOT state that you weren't paid.
This implies you ARE paid.

Whats all this about?.
This is a serious conflict of interest. You get paid, and this other guy easily refutes the har-de-har-har 9/11 conspiracies for free.

Who's getting better value ?

Is this your last refuge, Maestro?

Who the hell would pay me to write this stuff. I wouldn't take a penny for writing this. You're getting pitiful and desperate, don't you think?

Conflict of interest, eh. My interest is doing my part to bring some light to these horrible crimes.

What Condi knew and when she knew it..

Go here regarding what Condaleeza Rice knew and when she knew it:

http://www.ny911truth.org/articles/condi_knew.htm

"...Condaleeza Rice was warned on July 10,2001 by George Tenet and his counter-terrorism expert, Cofer Black, that a serious attack was imminent."

Now connect this to the fact that the FBI knew that there were Middle Eastern people in the United States trying to learn how to fly large jet aircraft, and warnings the intelligenvce community had received years earlier about plans to use airplanes as missiles and fly them into buildings.

And oh yes, Maestro...about me being "paid." There's not enough money on the entire planet to make me walk across the street. In fact, poverty is my greatest and proudest accomplishment.

Hey Truman

Thought you might like to see this little tid bit. It's from behind the subscription wall at the Times this morning...by Frank Rich.

I thought it had a kind of resonance for at least part of your theory.

Anyway - here are the money paragraphs, just for you.

Mr. Libby’s novel was called “The Apprentice.” His memoir could be titled “The Accomplice.” Its first chapter would open in August 2002, when he and a small cadre of administration officials including Karl Rove formed the White House Iraq Group (WHIG), a secret task force to sell the Iraq war to the American people. The climactic chapter of the Libby saga unfolded last week when the guilty verdict in his trial coincided, all too fittingly, with the Congressional appearance of two Iraq veterans, one without an ear and one without an eye, to recount their subhuman treatment at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

It was WHIG’s secret machinations more than four years ago that led directly to those shredded lives. WHIG had been tasked, as The Washington Post would later uncover, to portray Iraq’s supposedly imminent threat to America with “gripping images and stories not available in the hedged and austere language of intelligence.” In other words, WHIG was to cook up the sexiest recipe for promoting the war, facts be damned. So it did, by hyping the scariest possible scenario: nuclear apocalypse. As Michael Isikoff and David Corn report in “Hubris,” it was WHIG (equipped with the slick phrase-making of the White House speechwriter Michael Gerson) that gave the administration its Orwellian bumper sticker, the constantly reiterated warning that Saddam’s “smoking gun” could be “a mushroom cloud.”

I assume in your version, Libby's story would start a couple of years earlier, eh?

Truman

Well Truman:

I love Moot Court..

......BUT Not moot KANGAROO Court.

This is becoming a wee bit cult -like and paranoia ridden. That starts to get into a prostelytization process...and I think its getting way past that point .

Make the " facts " fit the theory....or the facts are wrong ,... dammit!!!!.

No, the facts are the facts, there are far more rational contrarian explanations to the conspiracy you allude to that TRUMP the conspiracy fans fairy tales.

Pretty soon the conspiracy fans will connect Lady Di's death and the Canucks recent success to 9/11. (Ah sh!te, now look what you made me do Truman).

You have heard about the " theory of coincidences ",( no really there is one !!!) haven't you Truman ? This probably cut the Psychic Hotline business drastically.

Hint Hint Hint...How about theory of thermite: " UNexploded thermite meets clean -up process ".

I really don't think you read that report I cited...seems you shut your mind down just on the remuneration issue. If the author isn't paid to provide their applied expertise, , AND you aren't paid to write your theories...what's the conclusion ? I think they trump many of your theories. You are simply commenting from an armchair perspective.

We'll being moving onto other topics soon, and discuss them.

Can't fool me. I'm fairly clever, eh.

I think both(?) of you guys know that 911 was an inside job.

And Truman, here's some more

Information that I, at least, found was worth going through:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB215/index.htm

There was a conspiracy my friend - I just don't think it was the one you're concerned about.

limited hangout, anyone?

Page 23A suggestion 12 of the dissemblers' manual reads:

(23A-1) has a complete demonstration of the 'limited hangout' technique perfected by Nixon's staff.)

"If debater makes too many reasonable points try doing a 'limited hangout,' in which you will admit that he is partially correct, but wrong about the really BIG issue which he has been (correctly) writing about."

Page 24 (continued): "If debater makes too many reasonable points trying making a big stupid joke about the whole thing." (see Canadian, Maestro's work)

See definitions: 1.limited hangout

2. big stupid joke.

I wouldn't disagree with that for a moment Truman

I thought you wrote the manual.

Truman:

No, Nixon and Elvis are with us as we speak playing video games.

Elvis was in NYC that day though.

James Brown RSVP'd and couldn't make it.

They are out to get you ahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha.

pass the pretzels... "I feel Good"....

are you sure it's not the same guy

again. West/Alci/Maestro too?

Anyway Mr. Hydra, time to watch this again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

Truman:

If your premise (ie 9/11 WTC conspiracy theory )which you " sincerely believe in " ,is, in an all seriousness , seriously flawed,...

.....and you use other conspiracy theories Ie " Tricky Dicky Nixon " ones to counter any critiques and contrarian explanations ... that does NOT make one's original premise (ie 9/11 WTC conspiracy theories ) any more plausible or legitimate. ie the two wrongs do not make it right or correct.

It's called "I didn't know they could stack BS that high" Law of physics .

The fact you have a " Disassemblers Manual " , Truman , shows what a mastermind aka " genius " you truly are. (BTW You are not typing this from a cave in Afghanistan are you and with a dialysis machine hooked up ? )

You are taking a so-called Nixonian deflective strategy, yet using it to foster a premise that you are correct, thus making it work for you instead of exposing the many flaws of your own 9/11 theory. ie an ass- kicking rebuttal of the Truman 9/11 WTC conspiracy shall be defended against using a Truman-esque force field of retro- Watergate conspiracy theories.

If you saw the film " The Prestige " you would see what I mean via the 3 stages to any magic trick.

You know...The A-M-A-Z-I-N-G Truman , and his assistant Mopled, will make this WTC disappear with thermite and "alleged" planes yet without any evidence of thermite and other huge gaps in logic.......step right up , there's one born every minute...step right up....

PS Mopled,I've seen the link....again..so?

to the hydra with Alzheimers

The fires in the ruins that were not put out until Dec.16,2001 and the slag analysed by Stephen Jones are both evidence of the use of thermate....but you know that already.

My question is for whom do you work? I have no doubt there is some intel agency lurking in the background...but then I'm such a romantic.

Stephen Jones ?

WTF makes this guy an expert ?.

http://www.stephenjonesmillinery.com/

Oh, I get it, the one you LEAST suspect.

Mopled...are you Truman?
He tends to tag team(...used to have Nana...an almost mirror image accomplice peer) like the recently outed TYEE Ayatollah G 'ster and his Sybill like - aliases.

BTW ever heard of a peat bog fires, or tire fires... or underground coal fires that burn for years...I don't recall thermite involved .

You answered my question, troll

'cause nobody but a troll would have dragged in the two stinking red herrings you did.
Peat fires indeed!

Prof. SteVen Jones hangs out here these days.
http://stj911.org/

West-Alcibiades uses limited hangout trick

The discredited West-Alcibiades thingy uses the old "Yeah, there was a conspiracy in Cheney's office to fool the American people and the world into thinking Saddam was involved in 911, and illegally take America into a massive slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocents, BUT these same guys would be capable OF COURSE of letting 3000 people die in the wtc collapses.

That's the classical limited hangout trick.

Maestro, of course, just gets stupid, to break any rational chain of thought I, or Mopled have presented with our assertions that something seems wrong with the official accounts.

Therefore, these two, (ONE?) people are just trying to wreck the discussion.

should be: "not" be capable

error: should be: "...these same guys would NOT be capable...."

Maestro, from your reference to the "outed Ayatollah, G.ster, (G.West-Alcibiades), with its Sybill-like aliases," can we infer that you agree with us that the comments of West-Alcibiades are useless and should be ignored? Or would you go with the "out of the mouths of moles a truth may be found" theory of truth-seeking?

Furthermore...

Also, Maestro, in the unliklihood circumstance that you and the outed G.West are NOT one and the same person--and your condemning of your own debating partner is NOT just a camouflaging 'methinks the lady does protest too much' technique, I offer a sincere bit of respect for your honesty--IF, of course you are really being honest, and not just tricky.

Oh, I forgot to ask, Maestro, but...

And one more thing, Maestro, could you please post your real name, phone number, and general area of residence in your next comment.

I forgot to ask before, but I'm sure you can understand why I would want to know exactly who I'm having this discussion with.

After all, it is quite unusual to partake in a conversation with someone who refuses to tell you who they are. Not the kind of person one would invite to telephone them or, heaven forbid, invite into one's home--even via the internet.

Mopled looked me up in the telephone and called me; even G.West-Alcibiades phoned me and left his/her telephone number and real name (I would presume) on my call display--which shall, of course, remain privileged information.

So, Maestro, who exactly are you, anyway?

Truman: Discussion has been 9/11'd

No: Actually....this 9/11 discussion has sort of flatlined...err pancaked ...Someome has flown a plane into the tower of common sense or kept it hostage.

Your theories are interesting, but are also easily thermitted(or thermitten?). You are into " I want to believe it so badly" mode. You are starting at the periphery in your theories, versus starting at the core, that's a bad way to even attempt to connect the dots.

Here is a photo taken by the CIA and Mossad at a 9/11 conpiracy theorists party . ....click on the link

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/certogrouperwin/detail?.dir=/62df&.dnm=e66e.jpg&.src=ph

Re G'West and the Sybill routine...the important distinction is the Facts and the Logic...ie even if the source has a credibility problem. G West has their own belief system...a right we all have... but the facts and the logic can be a separate facet. I hate to say it,but G West was less full of sh!te ie more credibility when he at least appeared to not use the 9/11 issue as a U.S. and George Bush bashing platfrom .

If you and other TYEE dudes want to get all personal and friendly, and personally call each other go ahead. The TYEE rules don't say we are obliged to make such efforts. When I first started posting, I noticed supposed real names, may indicate bravado...maybe also inappropriate. Most posters tend to have a unique handle-name, which are within the TYEE rules.

OTHERWISE No Problem Truman...we'll agree to disagree on this one, but likely agree to agree on many others. Like I say, moot court, good sparring, nothing personal.

Jesus

...save us all. When their are conspiracies of strikings home land.. where has the world gone to? Considering SINCE Bush has been the leader, world has went into WAR. He promised to not lead us into war. Where are the ones who voted him, and not Kerry? I mean, Kerry was honest when he stated he would try to keep things at a minimum. But people voted with their bibles, and not their brain when Bush said he would stop Gay Marriage, which who the hell believed that? Either way, Bush is an idiot, and he's sleeping comfortably knowing we're all in Hell.

More news footage of explosions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQqm8TTYAw

Osama confess and denies. Which is true?

The American government aired a tape which it claimed to be of Osama Bin Laden confessing responsibility for 911

Notice the chubbier Osama in the confessional tape.

Go here to view:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

During an interview with the Pakistani Urdu-language newspaper Ummat Osama Bin Laden denied having anything to do with 911.

Here: http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

Read the content of the newspaper interview denial and the content of the confession. Decide which one is genuine and which one is fake. And for further investigation google: Osama confesses to 911 or Osama denies 911.

I believe that the denial is genuine.

Study also the controversy surrounding whether the govenment has been forthright in supplying documentation about the acquisition of the confessional tape.

10,9,8,7,6,5,4,..3......2........1......

Thank Allah that this topic is going to be archived soon...hopefully in an cave in Afghanistan.

10,9,8,7,6,5,4,..3......2........1......

Thank Allah that this topic is going to be archived soon...hopefully in an cave in Afghanistan.

Now you parody yourself

Maestro has a big tongue in his cheek...perhaps a reference to your wonderful post above.

Today, more footage from 9/11 media seems to point to media response to the events as having been scripted.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/120307mediascripting.htm

An absolutely must see...

I believe that this video and commentary by the reporter is absolute proof that there was pre-scripting of the collapse of wtc7, especially in light of the fact that a building such as wtc7, which was not hit by an airplane, HAS NEVER BEFORE COLLAPSE DUE TO FIRES, and the collapse of wtc7 has never been accounted for and isn't even mentioned in the official 911 report.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/260207building7.htm

I admit this is pure speculation

I have always doubted the official explanation that a few hijackers armed with box cutters and plastic knives could have overcome the passengers as the official 911 commission claims. Especially since I think panic would have set in among the passengers who would have known they were going to die unless they attacked the hijackers en masse. The hijackers were outnumbered on an average of fifteen to one.

Afterall, people HAVE been known to risk their lives in order to survive--and especially in order to save the lives of their loved ones and children.

I think it would have required the presence of only one or two strong-willed, intelligent, courageous personalities among the passengers to encourage a mass attack on the hijackers.

Now, it turns out that the box cutters and plastic knives existed only in the minds of Donald Rumsfeld and John Ashcroft.

Here: http//www.edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid9.htm

Notice Donald Rumsfeld claiming that "...it was beyond anyone's imagination" that hijackers would have flown airplanes into buildings.

There is evidence that such an attack with commercial aircraft being flown into buildings was a well-known possibility.

I'll try that again

Perhaps this will work:

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/nether_foctoid9.htm

Truman and Mopled

BTW: What's with this prisonplanet fetish ?

A Thing for prisonLife ?

Of course, also just a "sheer coincidence " you both "tag team" post comments and overlap with similar links/sources,....eh? eh? eh?

PS Allah ,P-L-E-A-S-E, I will even sacrifice a goat if you will archive this 9/11 TYEE topic ASAP , this is worse than a root canal. OK, time to start the chant...

explanation re. 'prison' Maestro

The people who do the prisonplanet website believe that there exists in the world and particularly among the current neocon and New American Century cult in the United States, a bunch of people who want the Americans to be engaged in continual war; to destroy many of the civil and political rights guaranteed in the American constitution, and to accomplish these things by exploiting the fear and angst that began with the 911 attacks on the world trade buildings.

They believe, and I agree with them, that 911 was a 'false flag' operation designed by unknown conspirators, and that this fear and loathing is slowly converting the American republic into a kind of a prison in which dissenters will be regarded as traitors.

Your big rush, Maestro to have this forum closed down is very suspicious--at least to me--in light of the fact that between one third and one half of Americans are very cynical and suspicious of the offficial story of 911--including the official 911 Commission report. Not to mention that our own CanWest media wouldn't touch the issue with a ten foot pole.

So what's your big hurry to shut down the discussion? You could just ignore us, you know.

explanation re. 'prison' Maestro

The people who do the prisonplanet website believe that there exists in the world and particularly among the current neocon and New American Century cult in the United States, a bunch of people who want the Americans to be engaged in continual war; to destroy many of the civil and political rights guaranteed in the American constitution, and to accomplish these things by exploiting the fear and angst that began with the 911 attacks on the world trade buildings.

They believe, and I agree with them, that 911 was a 'false flag' operation designed by unknown conspirators, and that this fear and loathing is slowly converting the American republic into a kind of a prison in which dissenters will be regarded as traitors.

Your big rush, Maestro to have this forum closed down is very suspicious--at least to me--in light of the fact that between one third and one half of Americans are very cynical and suspicious of the offficial story of 911--including the official 911 Commission report. Not to mention that our own CanWest media wouldn't touch the issue with a ten foot pole.

So what's your big hurry to shut down the discussion? You could just ignore us, you know.

Poor Maestro

More root canal work for you.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7347491944410924647

Circumstances pointing to government involvment in the events and cover-up of 9/11.

Truman:

Likewise:

But then again...seeding and breeding subjective views via attempts at connecting scattered dots can be seen as inciting a mob mentality.

Like I said, there is:

(i) Moot Court

and there is

(ii) Moot Kangaroo Court.

I'm now even L-E-S-S convinced of a 9/11 conspiracy than I was in September when we last discussed this .

Remember the Challenger Shuttle tragedy explosion in 1986 had a Nobel Prize winning scientist as part of the investigation committee. He used as simple a model as is possible to explain what happened.

I won't repeat the oft used Tom Cruise quote... the one about handling the truth...

You're so funny,

you are trying so hard to hold up your side in the face of overwhelming evidence. Yes, they are dots, but like a pointalistic painting, there are so many dots....and even dashes, that a very clear picture is of complicity, at the very least, of parts of the US government.

The simplest model IS

.

Jibberish or what, Maestro!

Was that supposed to be a lecture on Occam's Razor, Maestro? Pretty weak, not to mention meaningless. The space shuttle you say. And something about the Challenger tragedy...

Yeah, Mopled and I are sure doing a Kangaroo Court here, alright, bullying the entire Tyee readership into accepting our version of 911. There's just thousands of Jim Jones-like brainwashing victims cheering us on here, just sitting at their computers all over the place waiting for a lull in the discussion so they can cheer us on.

I think you're a bit delusional, Maestro, but thank you so much for writing all that jibberish and allowing us so many excuses to present our points of view.

Did I mention the Fatty Bin Ladin video?

Sorry to be repetitive, but did you think about who the guy was in the Fatty Bin Ladin video? Here it is again. Remember that this confessor Bin Laden, plucked from the hinterland of outer Pakistan, (no doubt) supplies the ENTIRE U.S. government case against Osama Bin Laden.

Here, again--only different:

http:911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/binladinvideo.html

Notice how obsequious, frivolous and compliant this guy appears to be, not to mention chubby.

Oops, google has it.

Fatty can be seen by googling: "9ll Research, Fatty bin laden."

That's the entire case against Bin Laden, folks, honest!

Oh, except that CNN says he did it, of course--and the Washington Post, I think also, where ex-naval intelligence guy, Bob Woodward still works and who just convinced Mark Felt to be deep throat one day while hanging around a White House waiting room, and to divulge hundreds of CIA secrets to the twenty-eight year old wannabe big time journalist who couldn't write. But I digress...

Inside job, eh!

Allah: Will a silence of the lamb do?

Allah:

10..9..8...7...6...5..4..3..2...1

NOTE: THESE dots have a closer connection than THOSE dots that build Mopled and Truman's paranoias...err " theories ".

Remember Truman, we are not that far from the US border.., you could be responsible for a covert CIA operation that results in a US invasion and occupation.

If I see mushroom cloud around your neighbourhood I know you posted one TYEE comment TOO many.

Maybe add some " lead " siding to the trailer ,for the radiation hazard . I don't think the aluminum will hold up..low melting point.(Also the CIA or Mossad operatives who are everywhere...even under the trailer...BEWARE...)

THERMITE contains aluminum and thus evidence would be less apparent in Trailer parks.

However, I know you will come out fine Truman(not sure about Mopled, though) and you will continue posting on the TYEE...even when all else around you goes down the sh!tter (where the CIA and Mossad are most likley to hide). Cover your ass !!!

First Fifteen Minutes of September 11th

Within three hours of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, Robin Hordon knew it was an inside job. He had been an Air Traffic Controller (ATC) for eleven years before Reagan fired him and hundreds of his colleagues after they went on strike in the eighties. Having handled in-flight emergencies and two actual hijackings in his career, he is well qualified to comment on what NORAD should have been able to achieve in its response to the near simultaneous hijacking of four domestic passenger carriers on the morning of September 11th, 2001.

“There had to be something huge to explain why those aircraft weren’t shot down out of the sky. We have fighters on the ready to handle these situations twenty-four-seven. We have NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) monitors monitoring our skies twenty-four-seven. We have a lot of human beings, civilian and military, who care about doing their jobs.”

more at:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/120307firstfifteen.htm

More food for thought

Don't forget that the NHL and NFL season started up that time of year, and baseball was heading into the Playoffs.

The 2001 World Series winners were the Arizona Diamond Backs. Why ? Never before and haven't repeated. Coincidence ?

The NHL strike , soon after...can you see the connections? Sure the dots are miles apart but that's irrelevant if one wants to be irrational.

Colorado Avalanche won the Stanley Cup in 2001 ....get it "Avalanche" = code word for Thermite and what it does?

NBA champs.... the LA Lakers... hmm can't think of a connection...just need more time.

aha ....Shaq is now closer to NYC via on the Miami Heat roster . Sneaky eh...wait till he plays for the NY Knicks....

World's greatest Air Force stands down

Andrews Air Force Base is 10 miles from the Pentagon, yet even after first contact was lost with Flight 11 at 8:15 not a single plane from Andrews was scrambled soon enough to beat Flight 77 to the Pentagon. The first Andrews fighter made it to the Pentagon at 9.49--after the plane went into the Pentagon.

Langley Air Force Base is 129 miles from the Pentagon. It's three F-16s dawdled along at less than one third their top speed and didn't get to Washington until after the plane had gone into the Pentagon.

Did Norad stand down? Google it. Everybody except Maestro wants to know.

Maestro's handlers give directions...

"Stay with the jibberish. It's the best you can do."

explanation of passenger list puzzle

In my opinion the passenger list puzzle is the most obvious anomaly of the entire official story. To completely understand this puzzle go here:

http://www.rense.com/general15/perplexingpuzzle.htm

How did 19 Arab-looking men get on to the airplanes when it was necessary to show photo ID, without their names being on the official passenger lists of any of the airplanes. And why were there no Middle Eastern-sounding names on the list. It is possible to speculate that the hijackers used false names, but the passengers have all been accounted for according to relatives and families and none of them are Middle Eastern people.

I understand that this is hard to believe because most people would now just assume that the hijackers have been distinguished from the passengers and all have been accounted for. But not so.

If anyone has an explantion for this I would be very interested in knowing about it.

Hi Truman

Didn't we talk about this before? It's always been my theory that most of these guys were traveling on false ID. I've thought both about the obvious anomaly of the plastic knives and box cutters as 'real' weapons, and the identity issue, that the airlines and the government have been in league from day one to downplay and eliminate the possibility (read sure thing) that negligence law suits would have killed the airline industry in the USA. I think the manifest lists and their phoniness is another part of this scheme.

Given the fact that they could easily have been held responsible for multiple and egregious acts of gross negligence for their serial security meltdowns I've always thought that was behind the obvious and clear holes in that part of the Government story.

I also feel, additionally, that your points about Bin Laden's 'supposed' confession of responsibility are extremely well taken.

As I've said all along, there is still an enormous list of very good questions for which real persuasive answers have not been forthcoming.

Thanks for acknowledging the phone call. I appreciate it.

False names? It's not relevant.

Even if these guys used names like Donald Duck, Goofy, Jiminy Cricket and Mighty Mouse, these names would have to show up somewhere, and be numerically over and above the number of names on the passengers' list.

This anomaly is so amazing and obvious that it is breathtaking to think that the American people, by and large, have accepted this nonsense without being very suspicious that the government has been lying to them.

Of course the REAL conspirators had an ace up their sleeves and continue to have it today.

Mainstream Media pretends that these anomalies don't exist, and either feeble-minded or dishonest people like Matthew Rothschild and Andrew Struthers continue their pretense that all of the questions have been answered and those of us who see through all of the lies are just crazy.

Even goofier lie:

One of the hijackers supposedly had his passport in his pocket. Guess what? This passport survived the inferno and was found a few blocks away from ground zero.

Mind you, ALL of the black boxes were destroyed or rendered unusable in the collisions and building collapses, but the paper passport, no problem. Fully intact.

Believe it or not!

Another passport found in rubble.

Here for passport lies:

http://www.rense.com/general48/secondhijackerpass.htm

I just learned that Mohamed Atta's passport was found in the rubble completely intact.

The passport that was found a few blocks away belonged to Satam a-Sugani.

As the writer says they should have constructed the black boxes out of that indestructible passport paper.

More Canadian perspective

A very interesting critique of Matthew Rothschild's "Enough of the 911 Conspiracies, Already," which was published in the Tyee and in The Progressive, which Rothschild edits, appears on the Canadian online website, Vive le Canada, March 13, 2007.

This just in...according to CNN

Khalid Sheik Mohammed who's been in US custody at Guantanamo for four years, kept away from the press and WATERBOARDED confessed to being responsible for 911 at a secret tribunal.

CIA agents who volunteered to be waterboarded lasted only a few minutes (can't remember exact number) before agreeing to say virtually ANYTHING their torturers wanted to hear.

See: "waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed"
or similar heading.

Not 3 minutes, only 14 seconds, oops

I found the source of the comment regarding how long the CIA agents could withstand the waterboarding. I was wrong about it being three minutes; it was only 14 seconds.

Go here: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

Title: "CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described," by Brian Ross and Richard Esposito.

"According to the sources CIA officers who subjected themselves to the waterboarding techniques lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Queda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won even the admiration of interrogaters when he was able to last between two and a half minutes before begging to confess."

Unfortunatly, many of those hearing about his confession today will either forget about the torture or not realize the extent of it, and will therefore believe that such a confession is proof that Osama's guys did 911.

More background on the 'confession.'

See also: "CIA holds young sons of captured Al-Qu'eda Chief," by Olga Craig at the The Telegraph.co.uk site. Also read the 'related articles.'

I guess Maestro was 'pulled.'

Anyhow, thanks Tyee for allowing us (in Andrew Struthers' words) 'irrational' conspiracy theorists to have our say.

Truth comes out!

Coincidentally, apparently, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, just before another bout of waterboarding, allowed as how he suddenly remembered that he participated in the sinking of the Maine in Havana harbour in 1898.

All the facts here: http://kurtnimmo.com?p=800

Khalid Sheik Mohammed

Goes even farther back than that Truman.

Yeah! I heard he also directed the fire on Fort Sumter on April 12 & 13 1861.

What a bad guy!

With enough water boarding and threatening his family they could probably have got him for killing JFK too.

This must be the big comeback strategy for Bush's popularity I guess.

Wonder what Bush would confess to if HE were subjected to an uncomfortable procedure like water boarding for an few minutes? …seconds?...gotta remember that stuff ain't torture.

Disgusting - a once great country brought down to the level of a Manichaean bad joke.

With waterboarding anything's possible...

Waterboarding induces the sensation of dying. I know about it, not because I've ever been waterboarded, but because when I was sixteen years old I was strangled into unconsciousness by my older brother. When I 'came to' I was completely blind for approx 30 seconds and a loud siren-like noise was ringing in my ears. Those few seconds before unconsciousness when you know you are going to die, and when the trachea is completely closed off and the entire body is crying out to release CO2 and acquire oxygen, are so painful and frightening that anyone who experiences them will gladly confess to anything, to escape the possibility of it every happening again.

Wikipedia gets it right; Cheney fibs...

According to Wikipedia, Dick Cheney says waterboarding's only a 'dunk in water,' but Senator John McCain (tortured in Vietnam) calls it an 'exquisite torture, a mock execution.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Waterboarding is more frightening than the knowledge of imminent death becaue it punishes on so many levels--including spiritually--because you fear that god must hate you to allow this kind of suffering.

Jesus Christ Truman

I'm so sorry to hear that.

How awful.

I wish I felt McCain still had the strength fo speak up and speak up loudly against these freaks. God knows someone has to.

Peace my friend.