Memo to Dion: It's Not Working

should have done it in french, since Dion is hopeless in english, worse than Cretien ever was; I could actually understand Cretin when he spoke...Dion mangles the context so badly that I cannot follow what he is speaking about.

The LIEberals have chosen a place holder leader while they have a few nights of the long knives in the back rooms.

After the bloodletting is done there will be a call for a new leader, sadly for those whom desire a united canada it will all come too late I think.

Chris H.

It is an insightful article. He is not claiming that the Tories will win. He is merely saying that Mr. Harper is not the boogey-man the Liberals claimed he was. In fact, he has a higher approval rating than Mr. Martin did.

Furthermore, he is about to provide a voter friendly budget filled with tax cuts and environmental spending. He never said that the Conservatives are going to win a majority government, or that they'd win at all.

They are running neck and neck with the Liberals, which is where they want to be. The last two elections, they've performed very very well. Martin was forecasated to land a massive majority, Harper pulled him to a minority. In the last election, they ran a smart, efficient and targetted campaign.

Mr. Harper is not the boogie man and Canadians are warming up to him. There is no doubt that there is a very large portion of the Canadian population that WOULD NEVER EVER EVER VOTE Conservative. I don't know if it is the 55% you speak of, considering they received roughly 37-39% (can't remember) of the vote last time. That means, pretty much every Canadian that could vote conservative - did.

The true telling point is whether Harper pulls the upper middle suburban class in the GTA, GVA and Montreal. If you look in Vancouver - West Van, North Van, Richmond and Coquitlam were very close battles. More votes tipped towards the Liberals because people were concerned about Harper's hidden "social agenda", and respected Mr. Martin's tenure as Finance Minister...

These same people see Dion and a Liberal party which is considerably left of where they were 5 years ago...

Harper will win the next election. Canadians are speaking loudly - they want tax reductions over spending - they want accountability and honesty. They want balanced budgets and they want international significance. Mr. Harper is the only PM that can offer this.

He has his uphill battle to win a majority though. Like you said, there are enough Canadians who won't vote Conservative under any circumstance.

Cap to Murdock

I think Conservatives accross the country jumped for joy when Dion was elected. One word sums him up; pathetic. He looks like the type of kid I used to shove in lockers in highschool.

He has little experience. He has little charisma and even less conviction. The guy is weak. He's flip flopped on several issues already. Harper is going to crush the guy.

Layton is a leader. He is charasmatic, truthful, etc. His problem is that he is left of where most Canadians sit - and urban-centric.

Duceppe is a great leader too. I was scared of Ignatieff and Rae for that matter. Rae is a populist much like Glen Clark, very outgoing and likeable. Ignatieff's resume speaks for itself!

Dion was a gift.

PS

When I said "He looks like the type of kid I used to shove in lockers in highschool." - I wasn't being literal.

I never shoved anybody in lockers. I was actually very friendly with everyone! It was little more than an expression, which I am sure the lefties will jump all over - calling it symbolic of a right wing stance.

I am trying to say - the kid who wins the science fair rarely gets voted class president.

Beholden to Social Conservative Base

Social conservatives haven't seen any inclination on Harper's part to pursue the types of policies that interest them. There is no action on abortion, a limp wristed vote to protect traditional marriage (he didn't bother to show up for the debate), and quite a few small investors lost a bundle on the income trust broken promise.
Harper is a pragmatist and a shrwed strategist rather than an idealogue, which has impressed the electorate, as the latest poll appears to indicate. But to imply that social conservatives are happy with him wouldn't be accurate.

That's Not Fair!

As Stephane yelled during the Liberal debate, it just isn't fair. Well, too bad Stephane. You may be a nice guy and sorta brainy but you're not a born leader.

Good article by Ross and well said Capitalism.

Seems that Harper's hidden agenda has actually bought forward another left-confounding announcement:

OTTAWA (CP) - Feb.20.2007- Prime Minister Stephen Harper and billionaire philanthropist Bill Gates have announced a multimillion-dollar initiative to combat the virus that causes AIDS. Harper says his government is committing up to $111 million to a new fund called the Canadian HIV Vaccine Initiative, while the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has pledged up to $28 million.

If the Conservatives bring forward a plan for culture development and another for social housing it will be a slam dunk. The Liberals won't have a slate to scratch on.

Memo to Capitalism: I don't believe you.

I am trying to say - the kid who wins the science fair rarely gets voted class president."

sez Cappy

I don't believe you Cappy. I think you wrote the truth and then realized how it actually sounded.

You're the same guy who also said he hated the French, hated people from Quebec and anyone from 'eastern' Canada, hated homeless people and I can't remember who all else.

I think you're pretty typical of the compassionate conservative type pee wee has being painting both himself and his party as being. I don't believe it and neither does anyone with a modicum of good sense.

That being said, I think he'll win the next election and Canadians will have four years to regret it. Sadly.

Last think I'd ever want is having people like you make decisions about the lives of folks with no power.

Dolphin

Good points - firstly, Evangelical Social Conservatives are not their "base" - i.e. supporters of abortation.

Their base is rural and suburban voters of all varieties - primarily in Western Canada and Southwest Ontario.

These people generally support lower taxes and government spending, because they don't really ever see the benefits of such spending.

Garth

I admit I am not the biggest fan of what the French have let themselves become. They were once a great nation, now they are a laughing stock.

I don't hate the Quebecois. I resent the fact that they are unappreciative of the contributions we've made to them. We've paid for their exhorbitant social programs, yet they "hate" us.

Define Eastern Canadians. I think the maritimers are lazy. There is little doubt about that. Their productivity is a joke, and I know they've been dealt a blow with the fisheries - however, they've been unable to diversify their economy. They've had their hand out to the government too often, for far too long.

I have nothing against Ontarians. For the most part, they work hard. They are a self-centric but that happens when you represent 1/2 of Canada's population.

I don't know anybody from the Nunavut.

Yawn

Capitalism, why don't give Garth a gmail address so he sent those volumous invectives to you there and therby concentrate on the subject here?

Realisticman

"If the Conservatives bring forward a plan for culture development and another for social housing it will be a slam dunk. The Liberals won't have a slate to scratch on."

This is precisely where the Liberals would have lied and trumpeted to Canada that they had a vast plan for social housing and cultural development. They'd earmark billions of dollors for each, yet proclaim that they'd balance the budget.

Chretien is no fool. He realized he was 80% there (much like the Tories are right now) - he's make up the other 20% - and voila! you have your majority!

We'll see what path Harper takes. Though, I hope he doesn't lie. I like the think I can trust the guy - even though he burned us on the income trusts. I'll chalk that one up to not knowing what he was getting himself into. Not knowing the facts. It might be the best decision in the end.

He has no excuses this next term.

'Those that continue to

'Those that continue to label the government as neo-conservative are not only out of touch with the current dynamics of public opinion, but do so at their own peril.' did you neo-commies hear that?

Trust

I suspect Harper was naive on the Income Trusts. Once he looked at it deeply he realised that the scheme was a wrong one and that it would snowball, so, being decisive he pulled the plug immediately and braced for the hit. ( Even our dear friend Garth thinks it was the right decision. ) At least there was no investigation needed. It was all transparent. He's smart guy and I'm sure he's studied diligently to ensure that he doesn't goof again.

Realisticman - Great Point!

I remember Liberal supporters up in arms - asking why there wasn't any notification of this. They were actually angry that this came as a complete surprise to the market.

Flaherty did what he should and confined this knowledge to about 12 people, including the PM. The Liberals on the other hand, leaked their findings to all sorts of staffers, who in turn leaked it to insiders who profited greatly.

I still remember the day when Gooddale announced that he wouldn't tax trusts AND he'd reduce the dividend tax. He made his announcement after hours, yet - at around noon that day volume went bazurk! Every trust and dividend paying stock went on a tear!! The little man missed out - Liberal insiders didn't.

Everything around the Liberals always smells funny, doesn't it?

Harper's HIV/Aids initiative

Haven't noticed much action on this one:
http://www.cccb.ca/site/content/view/1881/1214

And the promise was to spend up to $111 million over the next ten years or so to build a facility to do research into an AIDs vaccine. I'd be surprised if this is new money. Like so much the Liberals and Conservatives do - it's just shifting funds from one budget line item to another in order to make a bit of splash in the media. Especially when Billy Gates is in town with his cheque book.

Don't hold your breath.

Talk to me first, OK?

It's no secret that there are/were some very powerful people behind the Liberal scenes, and they almost certainly had to be consulted and advised before any substantial alteration to the financial services industry. Rae was their guy and somehow they lost the plot at the Lib convention.

Harper and his team may be a bit hickish but they are not beholden to a boardroom clique no matter how much the scribblers from the Beaches and Cabbagetown might like to try and link them back to the Bow River cowboys. In fact, a few of those Spadina pundits are raising their eyebrows lately and muttering praise, although still partially covering their mouths.

I hope he doesn't lie

So you'd say Harper wasn't lying when he called Global Warming a 'socialist plot'.
Which means he's lying now.

Harper has done nothing but lie since he decided he wanted to be Prime Minister of this country. You are right about one thing, he and the Liberals are no different.

And that bit about accountability and electoral finance reform. I guess you haven't been following the debate about election financing and political donations have you?

Harper will win the next election. And the people will suffer for it.

As for you Capitalism, anyone who'd pay any attention to anything you write after the kinds of ad hominem attacks you've levelled at a wide range of your fellow human beings isn't worth discussing anything with. I wonder what your employees really say about you when you're not around.

Dion

Dion was clearly a mistake. Not so much because of what he is but because of the dishonest way he won the leadership and because of the BC Liberal connections that won him delegate support from people who should have been shunned. That and the essential split in the Liberal Party that has existed since Paul Martin became the leader.

Harper is doing exactly what I expected him to do and people are reacting exactly as foolishly as I thought they would.

It gives me no pleasure to remind all of you that I said months ago that these things would happen as they have been happening.

Several things that must worry Pee Wee Rambo are now on the horizon. Not least of which: a resurgent Taliban offensive in southern Afghanistan and the need to deliver a basket of plums for Quebec in the budget. Even if this brings Charest a victory in the provincial election it will be a mixed blessing because of the criticism such a ‘solution’ to the 'fiscal imbalance' will engender elsewhere.

On the fundamental issues of affordable housing and decent child care, not to mention the continuing slide in average personal incomes relative to the real costs of living, Harper has done worse than nothing.

But he has looked after his base.

If Canadians don't want a Harper majority government, they are going to have to unite the diverse forces that have the ability to send Stephen back to Calgary - the 60% of the population who know he, and what he represents, is not in their best interests.

Sadly, it won't happen.

Iggy and Dion?

When the Libs chose their leader I was all for Dion. He exuded honesty and integrity - whereas Iggy didn't.
After hearing listening to him spar with the opposition he appears almost comical - whereas Iggy doesn't.
Dion's lack of fluency in English is not his only problem and he certainly doesn't have the smarts of a Trudeau or even a Chretien - in my opinion.
Hopefully Afghanistan is enough to defeat Herr Harper.

your desk is smarter than

your desk is smarter than chretien.

great story in the sun today

great story in the sun today about harper speaking to and pleading for support from the sikh youth federation in 1990. they had already been designated as a terrorist organization at the time and were responsible for several terrorist acts. what a shameless piece of shite this guy is.

my first mistake ever:

my first mistake ever: obviously talking about mr. paul martin and not harpo.

My desk might be

But yours isn't El. ‘Cause you sit there.

The first mistake you made, El, was posting here in the first place and it has been just one long continual compromised list of blunders ever since...LOL

what took you g? i was

what took you g? i was getting worried about you. thought you were going to be able to ignore me this time, but i should have known better. you're a beauty!

fooled

Harper has been very effective at shutting up his MP's - ninety percent of whom are religious fundamentalists (aka whackjobs) mostly Colorado based Alliance, Southern Baptist, and Pentacostal.

The conservative riding associations are owned by the same people. Nomination meetings are generally closed with locations and dates known only to the religious homey's.

All works out well in a minority government but if the incompetent media allows Harper and his gang of religious thugs to win a majority then Canadians are in for a world of hurt.

Harper will quickly lose control to his religious MP's who will quickly move to create heaven on earth.

'ninety percent of whom are

'ninety percent of whom are religious fundamentalists (aka whackjobs) mostly Colorado based Alliance, Southern Baptist, and Pentacostal.' where you getting your facts seth? co-op radio?

18 minutes for someone like you El

Is pretty much the same as instantly...they haven't covered telling time yet in Grade II I guess. And besides I was busy finishing a contract.

I had no idea you were such a Harper critic.

Ignore you? Trying to help you advance your awareness of reality and teaching you to actually discuss issues and the role of truth in the world is my idea of a good deed.

I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

Perhaps you're lacing your skates too tight.

Finishing a Contract???

Garth's attempt at trying to sound important:

Are you a lawyer Garth?

oh no, back to the tedious

oh no, back to the tedious hockey analogy. spare us garth.

You're the tedious one El

You just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

I guess you've never read de Tocqueville have you Cappy. But then of course he's French.

Oh, and Cappy, on the new Harper plan..

The AIDS initiative with Bill and Melinda that everyone's so excited about.
I haven't got to the actual nuts and bolts of where they're getting the bucks from, but the impression they wanted to give that it's something new and original.

Well, not so much; here's the details - it's a program that you and your buddy Elliot actually started:

You do remember who was in power in 2005 don't you?

Canada's New Government? Pretty much like the old one.

And as for Pee Wee's thoughts about Aids in general, and treatment in particular...remember that conference in Montreal last summer? Yeah, that's the one, the one Harper was invited to speak at and he wouldn't even attend.

Some commitment!

correction

before the quote (from the Government's own website by the way) I'd meant to write:
...it's a program that you and your buddy Elliot should know actually started quite some time ago:

actually alci i know it

actually alci i know it quite well. gates is now working on his foundation full time and has tremendous influence over other corporate moguls as well. harper can't miss by supporting this worthy initiative.

Gavin

No I haven't read de Tocqueville. In fact, I have no clue who he is. Nor do I care.

What does he/she have to do with these contracts you've been finishing?

Puleeze!

There is never, ever going to be an AIDS vacine! Over $300 billion have been spent on this scam already. What kills me is the psychopathology of it all. For those of you who think I'm off the wall, check out:
http://aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm

The misdirection of our energy and funds into scams by constuction of false consensus has been a 20th Century hallmark and shows no signs of abating any time soon.

I was glad Dion got the nomination, but he does have that green elephant around his neck. I really think we are also being led astray on the anthropogenic origin of climate change/global warming. Since half of the population, both here and in the States agree with me, going heavy on Kyoto will tend to work against him.

Yaddering ad nauseum

Quote:

Alci, the difference is; like child-care, accountability, funding the military, recognising Québecers and doing something about the environment, the Liberals just yabbered on, and on, promissing but doing nothing. By comparison the conservatives are positively decisive.

Then I assume Elliot, that the next time Harper takes credit

for today's little announcement, that you'll be that little fellow in the back row waving his hand and yelling that this is nothing more than the continuation of a program that the Liberals, under Paul Martin, actually started.

Harper is such a hypocrite.

Real sportsmen actually belive in fair play El. DO you?

I know you don't Cappy so I won't bother asking. You should read de Tocqueville, you profess to have an education. No one with an education of even the most cursory type would admit to not know who he was or what he wrote.

realisticman

That's nonsense and you know it. Without an understanding of where this money's coming from and what it'll be spent on, there is absolutely no way to know that it isn't just more of the kind of smoke and mirrors that the Liberals specialized in. The announcement is actually for a spending committment of 'up to' 111 million. Whether or not that's just capital cost or a combination of capital outlays and operating funds is unknown; as is the time frame. Furthermore, that much money in direct R&D funding for existing programs already in place might well be a far better and more productive use of funds - something else you must know if you know anything about medical research infrastructure and the cost of new facilities.

You might be able to pull that over on the Elliots and Cappys of the world but people who actually understand how government works know better.

It's all just talk for the moment and part of pee wee's undeclared election campaign - just like his dishonest attack ads that wouldn't be allowed under the current election rules.

The man hasn't got an honest or genuine bone in his body, in my view.

Cap and Elliot et al:

Don't sweat it.

It's just the Leftie rope- a - dope...just don't enter the ring and simply avoid the black - hole booby trap.

They still haven't changed " the punch " since last time either .

"Contract" ???
......hmm they still haven't found Jimmy Hoffa, have they?...and look what happened to the Vancouver Real Estate blogger on today's other TYEE topic.

Somethings up...the circumstantial evidence suggests...

To see if 111 million's a wise expenditure..

Plus Bill Gates' 28 million of course. I almost forgot.

Okay, I've got a question for you guys. No googling. How many people do you think contracted Aids in Canada in 2005 and 2006?

Play fair, eh. Whadya think?

And how many do you think died of Aids in Canada in 2005 and 2006?

Guess

I would guess 18,000 contract AIDS/HIV. I would guess 1,500 die.

Complete shot in the dark.

death rate from HIV is 1.3/100,000 of population

That's the figure for 2003 as I recall. About 1/10 of the incidence for death from Alzheimer's disease that year and only slightly more than for the flu (1.0/100,000)

Don't know the figures for 2005 and I doubt the ones for 2006 have been published yet.

I'd say anyone who says they know how many people contracted AIDs in Canada in any year is kidding.

anybody else?

Incidentally I asked one of my best friends who is a psychiatric nurse this question and she quessed sbout 2500 deaths in 2005.

flu deaths in Canada are unknown because the diagnosis is ambiguous. It's somewhere between 500 and 2500 in Canada with about 30-36,000 in the United States.

You're disqualified, G.West, because you googled--or looked up anyway--the l.3 per one thousand. Why not just guess, G.West?(not that you're right, only that you cheated) I'm trying to find something out here about people's knowledge of Aids in Canada.

By the way the death rates refer to death rates that were reported to Health Canada, which all must be according to the law.

Like hell I did Truman

Why guess when I knew the information.

Pure unadulterated drivel

Who the phuque is this clown ?
Sounds like a neo-Nazi apologist to me .
You think we aren't aware of Harpos Straussian indoctrination ?
Or the fact that Harpo's closest adviser Tommy Flanagan is a hard core racist'First Nations Second Thoughts'
We know exactly what a neo-con looks and smells like.
Look in the mirror you phuquing goof !

ah yes, hannibal's back, and

ah yes, hannibal's back, and as eloquent as ever. just might be good old sleepswithangels/deepforbiddenlake trying his very best to restrain himself so he doesn't get booted off again. whoever he is, he's still full of shite.

and the two of you

Make lovely bookends.

Next

I wonder what the Liberal platform will be. What's the branding key word? Can't be the economy, or the military or foreign policy. If Charest wins it won't be national unity. I wonder if the Libs are so devious they would angle to have the PQ elected just so they'd be able to weasel back in under the unity logo? After the next whitewash will Iggy and Rae bother to stay on just to twist the blades, or will they move on with their lives? If it's close Stéph will want to hang in for another chance.

On Jonathan Ross's site he suggests that the Bloc might want to force an election after the Québec one. I don't think so. The same machine that will go full tilt for Boisclair will be needed for the Bloquistes and they will be spent for a few months, at least.

Pollsters must be perusing Mercedes brochures as they salivate.

bookend for a shnookend...

what does de tocqueville have to do with this, numbnuts? why don't you and Goof West do some homework and try to comeback from your drubbing at the hands of GKL, the guy who destroyed you both in the Crozier debate.

I'll be cackling as only a hyeena can.

Bye.

Harper is a leader

of irrelevance.
of smear.
of blame.
of lying.
of NAU.
of SPP.
of corporate welfare.

Harper is the leading "arse-liker of Satan" (as Mary Walsh would say).

I want a leader that believes in peace.
I want a leader that actually cares about the environment we are living in and leaving behind.
I want a leader that understands that it is only a myth that our elected officials are in some way more powerful than those they work for and therefore can disregard their input.
I want a leader that believes in funding national healthcare, daycare, education and security while leaving the rest of the tax dollars to the municipalities we all live in and know where the dollars need to go.

Screw the provincial governments, who needs them?

In other words the Liberal and Conservatives are both passe and need to take a back seat to a real change of policies. Vote Greens.

I see you haven't read de Tocqueville either.

And you used to call yourself Acadian Driftwood.

He, de Tocqueville, understood America better than you do, apparently...and he was only an 'honourary' citizen, so to speak.

Anyone who calls herself hyeena would cackle, wouldn't they?

I'd say GKL wouldn't have felt that way about the debate you're referring to. And I'd be more than happy for anyone to go back there and check:
http://thetyee.ca/Books/2006/12/05/LornaCrozier/

Honest men, you see, have nothing to fear from such as you hyeena.
Bye

thanx for the link. I had

thanx for the link. I had no idea clubofrome got his ass kicked, too.

4Cryinoutloud

Screw the provincial governments, who needs them?

I guess you like TILMA which starts to remove the power of individual provincial governments. Have you considered how the country will respond to your suggestion that all provincial bureaucracies be disbanded and all is run from Ottawa? Is this the Green Party platform? Scrap all the provincial judiciaries too? Do you know how this country is structured?

Disband Provincial jurisdiction? Run it all from Ottawa? LOL

California apparently has the 5 th- 7 th largest economy in the world.

However, BC itself is almost twice the size of California.

Sorry, but people continually take this (i) " Provincial jurisdiction " vs (ii) " Ottawa = THE ONE AND ONLY GOV'T WE SHOULD HAVE " matter out of context again and again.

Quebec all by itself is about 20- 25 % of the size of the US. Florida is barely bigger than Newfoundland.

Canada is a huge country made up of the sum of its' parts which are called " Provinces " , each of which ,individually, are huge separate jurisdictions .

There is not a country in Europe bigger than any of the Non -Maritime Canadian Province.

Formal Centralization of a Federal Gov't in Ottawa (and accomplished by eliminating Provincial jurisdictions) will effectively turn anything East of Ontario back into a colony...to be plucked and plundered, or at least centralization will make this "de -facto" reality more official.

Ottawa needs us, but we don't need them. The die were cast years ago..." Ottawa Head Office " caters to the select group of voter-shareholders in Central Canada.

That's OLD news and nothing has changed, and nothing will change , and there is really no sense making it worse with MORE centralization in Central Canada. In my view, such a move would actually encourage and expedite separation. Why anyone would even consider an even more entrenched version of the status - quo is truly bizarre.

Error:

Error:

should read ....." will effectively turn anything WEST of Ontario back into a colony .....

Getting rid of provincial governments

Wouldn't necessarily mean that the people outside of Ottawa would be ignored. In fact, done properly - with some real electoral reform - the exact opposite would be the case.

Lame Duck Liberal Leader!

As I have said before, Dion is a lame duck leader, who will be hamstrung from previous Liberal government inaction and grandstanding - no actual action. I also think though that it would not make a difference whether It is Dion, Rae or Iggy - all would be lame duck leaders.

The Liberal opportunity will come after a majority Conservative government is elected and subsequently defeated after the majority of Canadians realize what the real Conservative agenda is.

As noted earlier: "Even though Bill C-288 (an act to ensure Canada meets its global climate change obligations under the Kyoto Protocol) was passed in unanimity by all opposition parties last week, images of Pablo Rodriguez getting a standing ovation from the Liberal caucus immediately afterwards could come back to haunt the party in the ensuing months."

Exactly, why didn't the Liberals do such a private members bill when they were actually the government? Fools!

I will vote NDP as the Green Party will not win a seat (except maybe the Leader though I still doubt it) in my riding (urban and rural predominantly resource extraction), the Conservative (last) candidate had/has a prescribed agenda, and the Liberals do not have my respect (all talk)

Centralization? The leopard doesn't change their spots.

You are already experiencing URBAN versus RURAL demarcation W-I-T-H-I-N Provinces.

Read Fiat Lux/ Ed's comments.

The News just reported 54 out of 60 BC School Districts are experiencing declines in enrollment.

Society in general is undergoing both massive and expeditious changes.

Urban Centers are becoming quasi/mini Nation states...they are densifying and likely one " self -serving reason " for doing so is so as to NOT lose out to their neighbouring jurisdictions who would otherwise gain, and to also at least maintain their proportional political influence. ie MLA's MP's etc.

Vancouver is apparently the epicenter...but Surrey may challenge for the title/crown in the foreseeable future. Further growth may result in greater representation in the Provinical and Federal Gov'ts ie more MLA's and MP's .

Canadian political culture is so entrenched, past history shows any/all change will benefit the East and also, if it doesn't favour the East, no change will happen, Canada's own poli-CATCH 22.

There is no major cry for further Centralization except perhaps by whimsical socialistic Yankee - hating ideologues (aka LEFTIES )who obviously can't read or else simply ignore domestic history , but there most certainly is more of a cry for separation from either a Centralized Federal Gov't or a centralized style of Federal Gov't.

Aka....Start talking about reduced Provincial powers and concurrent increasingly centralized Federal powers ??? , THEN Quebec may be the last to separate and turn out the lights, ie it didn't get in line FAST enough.

dion, Christmas gift to Harper!

The liberals just put the last nail in their coffin with the private Members bill on Kyoto and handed the Conservatives the hammer to pound them with. Barring some unforeseen event, a CPC Majority is just around the corner. Dion is a lightweight who can barely communicate in the majority language of the country. He is also tainted by his service in the previous governments. The Liberals were to busy playing internal politics and missed what was needed. I suspect that Iggy was the only candidate that could go head to head with Harper, even Rae would have been dogged by his record in Ontario.

If the CPC wins a majority, I suspect both Dion and Layton will be looking for a new job. I actually hope a couple of the rural Greens get in, just to make it interesting.

Getting rid of provincial governments-Alcibiades

Let's run this by some of our Québec friends. "We're wondering if you guys might like to join us in a plan to shut down all the provinces, including the Québec National Assemply and all they control. Everything will be decided in Ottawa and at the muncipal levels. What say you?".

I'd say you'd have a better chance of breaking the bank at Monte Carlo!

colin just hit the nail on

colin just hit the nail on the head. the worse thing that could happen to any gov't would be to actually follow through with the kyoto protocol, and then have to explain to the public why they're giving $300 million dollars to russia so we can pollute more. brilliant.

This is news Elliot

Colin's hardly the first person to suggest pee wee will win a majority government. If you think the developing world is going to reduce pollution (we all breathe the same air) while we whistle past the graveyard like there are different rules for us) you haven't been paying attention to what spokesmen from China have been saying to the press lately.

Time to wake up.

Provincial extinction

Realisticman.
I always love it when people like you pull two words out of context and turn it to their own advantage.

How about replaying the whole quote?

And, as long as there were the proper guarantees for Quebec's unique institutions - a kind of sovereignty association if you will (which I've never understood what the rest of Canada was so exercised about anyway) then I don't think there would be much problem.

Quebec is a separate entity in UNESCO and in la Francophonie now, thanks to pee wee and other federal politicians, and it has social and cultural services that the rest of Canada can only envy - including a much better system of electoral finance and professional child care than the rest of the country.

I can get you the data if you can't find it yourself.

It’s always a good idea to know how someone’s going to answer a question before you assume you know what they might answer. Permitting the people of Quebec to realize their legitimate aspirations within some kind of union with the Rest of Canada has never been something I was willing to light my hair on fire over. Quebec is NOT a province like the others. Never has been – never will be.

What's so hard to understand re Stephan Dingdong?

The Federal LIEberals past finally caught up to them..BRUTUS Martin fell on his own sword which he had previously employed on Jean Crouton's back and backside.

Power -lusting Martin quit, and rather quickly ...too embarassing. The LIEberals hold a leadership convention as is REQUIRED.

These conventions are often full of surprises...but once the " Favourites " or front- runners lose favour, Dion types move up the middle. In my view Dion was the "political paramedic" or E.R.- M.D. used to stop further internal bloodletting and calm things down.

Dion is simply a transitional leader, a band-aid...a stop -gap measure and he won't get a second chance. The LIEberals may or may not be re-loading.

Regardless, the die have been cast.

This becomes more obvious as time goes on.

Thanks, capitalism for doing the survey

Thanks Capitalism for being the only one to do the survey.

Anyhow, to evaluate Harper's recent 111 million dollar grant to the would be hiv vaccinators, here's the stats for Aids deaths since l980. I'm sure there's errors here, but the main thing is the the trend is to zero Aids within a few years from now--in Canada.

You can find these figures at 'HIV/AIDS Survellance Report Canada 2006' or try this link:

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/aids-sida/index.html

Go to the bottom of the first page and click on the pdf version.

Aids Deaths 1980 to June of 2006

l980 2
81 5
82 13
83 28
84 80
85 175
86 341
87 528
88 622
89 822
90 913
91 1105
92 1292
93 1413
94 1470
95 1501
96 1065
97 472
98 281
99 272
2000 262
01 201
02 144
03 152
04 78
05 72
to June of 2006 17

Reported Aids cases show a very similar pattern. Hiv infections are quite steady at around 2900 to 2500 per year from l995 to the present.

Guess who Harper and Gates'new l39 million bucks will be going to. You guessed it the vaccinators. And they won't find a vaccine either because it's all a hoax. This new money will join the other 40 billion or so doled out to the hoaxers. Aids is caused by a toxic syndrome, not a stupid 9 kilobase retrovirus, which could harm a flea, like hiv.

oops, another dumb pre-senior moment..

should be: 'couldn't harm a flea' in last sentence. Also, the numbers had several spaces after the year when I wrote them.

Oh, well.

stephane the fart's done.

stephane the fart's done. he'll be replaced at the libs next 'lack of leadership' convention and sail off into the university/academia/intellectual welfare world, never to be heard from again. kind of like andrew petter.

FN's and Quebec

Alcibiades
If Quebec ever did separate, do you think they would extend those same rights and expectations they enjoy as a “distinct society” to the First Nations within their midst’s?

It would also be interesting to see Quebec pay for it’s own lifestyle without the rest of Canada’s help.

RE: Apologists and appeasers

Appeasers and apologists, often amongst the so-called " intellectuals (?) " have often been used as the " Useful Idiots" to foster and hide agendas.

These types never seem to see nor admit the peripheral inequities and discrimination they claim to be against,.... yet would likley occur IF their appeasement and apologist path to resolution was actually chosen ... along the lines of "two wrongs don't make a right".

Perhaps it would be more useful for 30 million Canadians to pony up say $40 per person, and create a war chest of over $1 BILLION and go to court and clean up the old AMBIGUOUS B.S. that lingers.

Let's seek some C-L-A-R-I-T-Y and quit this Lawyers Cash Cow and suspended sense of reality aka ideology and irrational arguments and issues while Rome burns . One day the old " sh!tie or get off the pot" will beckon big time.

(NOTE: .....I seem to recall there are (2) legal demarcations on the Plaintiff ie the Courts acknowledge the Plaintiffs " ability to pay" if (i) the plaintiff is the Private sector (citizen) .....but apparently when the Plaintiff is (ii) the PUBLIC SECTOR ie Gov't, there is apparently an assumed UNlimited ability to pay, ignoring that non ideological FACT, of course that the GOV'T is made up mostly of Private Sector shareholders called " Voters and Citizens " . )

PS Also...if we structured this " Citizen Legal Fund " correctly, we could have it as "Tax Deductible"...a type of irony that comes FULL CIRCLE.

Colin

On the basis of the much more egalitarian and fair society that they've created in Quebec today - when compared with the rest of the country - and not excluding a great deal of credit for the deals that have been worked out with the James Bay Cree - I'd have to answer your question with a resounding 'yes'.

As to your other point, I think the level of criticism in the west over what Quebec 'costs' the rest of the country is absolute nonsense. Alberta, BC and the rest of western Canada seems to be full of people who don't know a damn thing about Canadian history over the past 100 years. Most of them have never lived in Quebec, Ontario or, for that matter the Maritimes.

I wish every Canadian cared as much about our 'culture' and history, our art and our music as the people from Quebec I know and love actually do. If the country breaks up, and I agree there's a real danger it will - not least because of the man you voted in as PM the last election (or the idiot who preceded him for that matter) - it will be as much because we here in the west can't see the real world beyond the lip of out own fat navels.

Quebec will be a big success - its' the rest of us I'm worried about.

"Ooo Eee ride me high...

...they ai'nt goin' nowhere." (Apologies to Counting Crows)

The Cree might not want to go with Quebec, if they were on the way out, and I beleive there is an understanding that they may not have to. The Mohawks wouldn't want to go either.

Quebec currently receives $15 million per day in equalization. The Canadian Federal debt is around $500 billion, of which Quebec should be responsible for around $125 billion. Add that to Quebec's own debt which is over $100 billion. Quebec recently boosted its credit rating to AA2 by using Draconian laws to freeze public-sector wages and restrict stikes but that added debt would cost Quebec dearly in terms of interest payable due to a ratings drop because of the added debt-load. Lavish programmes would suffer.

The only way they'd come close to going is if there were a friendly administration in Ottawa that would write them a comfy ticket. That would almost certainly only come about were a Quebecer the Canadian Prime Minister. The added problem then would be whether the Rest of Canada would tollerate a Quebecer nogociating for Canada with Quebec.

Even though it sounds like fun to have your own country most of the recent leaders, both in Quebec City and Ottawa, have been lawyers and when they begin to contemplate the complexities and challenges of the finacial aspects, as well as the transfer of Federal assets in Quebec, the years of litigation under an uncertain business climate - with the attendant disastrous general upheaval, they abandon the idea. The only practical next-best thing is a EU-type federation with transfer payments rolling across borders but then another whole level of bureaucracy would be required, so why bother since the ROC would be in no mood to support a government in Ottawa that proposed such a plan and they'd be voted out tout-de-suite.

We haven't even talked about the geography.

No Thanks...SVP

If I was a First Nations person...and currently located within a " certain Eastern Canadian Province " , and simply based on Past Practices within this Province, ...ie the " Language Gendarme " etc. etc. ... the absolute LAST place I would want to be would be this same Eastern Province if and when it separates.

As other TYEE posters have alluded to, and some rather bluntly, First Nations status in this Eastern Province would be one big mess, " Separated Province = New Country = NEW Rules " , and likely no grandfather clauses carried over whilst still part of Canada...or why else separate ?

Separation would be instigated so as to foster a single UNI- culture...all other cultures are secondary , if not in fact deemed " illegal " .

Oui ?

Realisticman

Have you ever visited the Czech Republic?

I've spent a fair amount of time there - I'm very fond of Prague and its architecture and the people.

Eggs can be unscrambled.

Besides, the other solution - some kind of loose federation, is much more likely between Canada and Quebec.

The Slovaks don't want to go back either - I've spent time in Bratislava as well.

Westerners are the really selfish ones, considering the way the east propped up a bankrupt Alberta in the 30s and fed a starving Saskatchewan. Trouble with Albertans...no memory...not much culture....too many transplanted guys from Denver.

And everybody forgets what Quebec itself was like for Francophones before the war..I’d call it a case of voluntary collective amnesia.

If I went back to live in Quebec, knowing what I know of the prejudiced attitudes in the west toward Quebec, I'd probably be a péquiste - if they'd have me.

Ahoy!

Say Hi to David Payne. Sure, go for it.

Westerners have been quite tollerant and the ebbing and flowing of cash has been generally accepted. I merely point out the facts involved were they to be a rift in the country. Yes it happened quickly in Czechoslovakia and it worked very well. It is much more complicated here because of equalization and etc..(I am not against Quebec going but merely suggest that the logistics are profound to the point of impracticality to most intelligent people.)

As for Quebec before the war. Well, I worked on a project with a multi-generational Quebecer that had a very famous father in the cultural field and he and I researched historical documents that repeatedly pointed out, as he frequently said, that Quebecers were nowhere near as badly treated as is proported by the recent crop of Nationalists. I also worked on an historical piece related to the founding of St. Catherine Street, with a decendant of the first family to set up on the street. Francophones were completely accepted and the French language was absolutely accepable and utilized at every juncture of business and comapny relations. Which is, again, contrary to what the seperatists will preach.

Fed's assistance for Alberta in 1930's

I seem to recall P Herr trudeau dredging up that ol' Alberta assistance comment...seems to be an old political ass -covering stand used by Eastern entities masking as Federal parties.

Link:

http://www.answers.com/topic/united-farmers-of-alberta

Alberta became a Province in 1905.

Alberta (and Saskatchewan) had no control over its natural resources when they came into Confederation, while the Eastern Provinces apparently did have control over their natural resources SINCE Confederation.

Alberta was able to acquire control over its natural resources in 1929...The Depression hit shortly thereafter and the Alberta Wheat Pool went bankrupt in 1929 as well.

Seems to me that the Eastern Provinces had a hell of a head start with more rights ie approx. 60 years of established control over such things as their natural resources in a country that has natural resources as one of its MAIN economic drivers/catalysts.

One wonders why , as more Provinces were welcomed into the Confederation fold, that once they joined Confederation as Provinces they should have also acquired equal status and the same priveleges with their other Canadian Provincial brethren.

Of course, one rebuttal would be that they may not have had the resource extraction infrastructure in place, but then again, what incentive is there is the Feds effectively own them and hence benefit....and likley repatriate the fuds to ditribute disproprtionately in Eastern Canada?

Oh yeah "almost" forgot P. Herr trudeau NEP...a retro version of Alberta post 1929...the FEDS quasi- own it again.

Seems like the Feds back then wanted to keep Alberta as an agrarian backwater for approx. 25 years till Alberta was able to negotiate an equal footing with the Eastern provinces on the natural resources front. Again, why was this denied at the start, and why was it only after Alberta's Pro-activeness that the Feds gave in?

If one is kept in a Provincial economy dependent on one main facet ie agriculture and moreso grain...one is vulnerable. The Feds of course, would have to intervene and assist one of their Confederation members in time of need, that's their role.

However, why they, the Feds, would take credit for helping Alberta in the 1930's is bizarre, that's Ottawa duty, but it's even MORE galling when they literally handcuffed Alberta economically for decades. A strong case could be made that this Ottawa- based inequity may have exacerbated the hit Alberta took in the 1930's , because it couldn't diversify its economy...all its eggs were in basically locked -up in one basket thanks to Ottawa.

Ottawa switches its Snidely Whiplash black hat for a white hat at the proper moment,when the sh!te hits the fan , and YET has the gall to say it helped. No , it helped cover its own discriminatory biased anti Western ass.

Nice try.
It's typical of the Ottawa smoke and mirror tricks we have become used to.

Apparently...The seeds of discontent were set LONG ago...

Realisticman

Well, I dunno about that...I was actually more concerned with making the point that Quebec - and especially Montreal - was the centre of Canadian commerce (and with respect to whether unilingual French Canadians were as much a part of the management of that commerce as unilingual English Canadians were prior to the war - is a question I think I could adduce plenty of evidence to support my cause) and contributed very greatly to the settlement, development and growth of the west during the greater part of the first 80 years of this country's history. Not just during the depression either. Certainly, when I worked in the head office of a major Canadian corporation in Montreal there is no doubt that the vast majority of management positions were filled by English Canadians….and that was many, many years after the end of the war.

The current ratio is that the economy of Quebec would suffer great harm as a result of a potential separation from the ROC. I think that ratio is over played and, although I'd much rather Canada find a way to accommodate its three nations within one national umbrella, I think that those who suggest a country's history - and the contributions each part of that country makes to its cultural and economic life - can be captured in a snapshot or a moment of time are naive.

Taken over the long run the idea that Quebec is, and has always been, a sponge sucking up the vitality of the rest of Canada, is just plain nonsense. A federation ought to be a collection of the whole country and all its difference and diversity.

We in the west behave as though the only thing that matters is the size of our personal fortunes, the size of our personal tax bill, and the inflation of our own egos relative to the contributions and needs of the rest of the country.

I prefer to be a little more honest, and appreciative, of the fact that - if this country fails - it will be every bit as much a consequence of our own greed and selfishness – and our inability to discern the forest from the trees - as it is because of the fact that marginally more dollars move across the Ontario border in one direction than they do the other.

All in my opinion. I do at least appreciate, realisticman, that it is possible to have a rational discussion with you. Unlike most of the folks here at Tyee who espouse the cause of ‘western’ rights, you at least are a worthy opponent.

you already are a pequiste

Go back to Quebec, Goof West. We don't want you here.

See what I mean realisticman

This is a individual who used to call him or her self 'acadian driftwood' who is actually an American - not that it matters - but it puts these comments about Canadian issues into a certain context. An individual who, a few weeks ago, was crowing about the kinds of relations he or she, as the case may be, was enjoying with members of the opposite sex in a certain far eastern country.

Pay him or her some mind if you wish.

set my compass north -I got winter in my blood

if you knew your history, you would know that acadian driftwood refers to the expulsion of the acadians, who wound up in Louisiana. I was a young man in british columbia in the 1990's who found themselves unable to join the job market -the boomers hogged it all. From 1993 to 2003 the unemployment rate was 12%. Check it out if you don't believe me -I haven't forgot. So I used my american citizenship and haven't looked back since.

I have no time for you Goof West, and your leftist leanings. I presume you are a boomer, the most self-absorbed generation in history. You've never had to look for work elsewhere -it was handed to you on a silver platter, just like all the other baby boomers.

Enjoy your retirement, Goof West, along with all the other spoiled, pony-tailed, wine-sipping boomers. Write me back when you really know what acadian drtiftwood means.

In addition, those years of

In addition, those years of double digit unemployment in BC, some will ascribe to the provincial NDP. While this is partially true, it is only part of the story. It was those years that led me to belive the only solution was in decentralisation, or more power to the provinces. Who is more informed in all things british columbian -victoria or ottawa?

Mr. West, Sir, you are the minority here. Most BC folks agree with me: Ottawa doesn't understand. The Irish called it Home Rule, that is, Dublin decides, not London.

Everything Maestro wrote in the previous post was accurate regarding Alberta. How dare you say Western Canadians are selfish and petty. Central Canada has held the axis of power since day one.

Like I said before, go back to Blvd. St. Laurent, you'll be happy there. Don't come back until you regard BC as an equal partner in confederation. Either way, leave. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

G'nite.

Keeping Canada together as CANADA:

It's really quite interesting when these Federalism vs Separatism debates unfold.

If our starting point is " YES ,we ALL likely agree that keeping Canada together is the MAIN objective"...where do we go from there?

However, there seems to begin a divergence into the Apologist/Capitulator/Denialist Camp ie "ACDC" vs the Pragmatic Camp ie " PC"

Here is where the irony starts.

The ACDC is often loaded up with Left- of- Center (see.... I didn't say Lefties !) who defer to Head Office mega-corporation aka OTTAWA " Ottawa can do NO wrong ". It's like so-called neo-con support for Bigger is Better..like GM " What's good for GM is good for America" is now " What's good for Ottawa Ltd. is good for Canada at large ".

Us so -called " selfish redneck westerners " ironically , are acting much like UNION Reps and Shop Stewards,( dare is say quasi- Lefties?) and saying whoa...Canada first !!!...but Canada is FIRST the sum of its parts, oops forgot to say EQUAL parts.

The Federal LIEberals had their poli-Waterloo, it was inevitable, chosen their chosen path of what they defined as "Canada" . That is FACT. They are on the same path as the NDP, potential oblivion, neck deep in the rising septic tank...it finally caught up to them. Something called reality and justice which "ACDC" types can't see nor admit.

Borders change all the time, last years maps become increasingly redundant. There comes a time that everything has to be re-evaluated objectively. Old Habits die hard...and the ACDC factions live on old idealism and ideology. They seem to think that leopards don't change their spots...and that those that set the seeds of discontent years ago will change, and all will be well?

Sorry, if the seeds set long ago cannot be re-sown, the harvest stays the same...we may have to accept that the status quo is maintianed on O-N-E side of the equation..but the OTHER side says, fine, all things being equal, there are other options available, once the scales get tipped to a certain point of no return.

There is ALWAYS such a "Critical Mass" catalyst in most things...maybe this one would best be named " Political Bankruptcy " the status- quo is like any empire, doomed to collapse...QUIT using the poli-Duct Tape ....time to move on...and quit being in denial. " We caught you in bed with Eastern Canada ...AGAIN!!!"

Its simply much like a divorce...which often starts with a separation due to " irreconcilable differences"....and can still be amicable afterwards....simply that diverging paths far overwhelm converging ones.

The ACDC types seem to be mini- libertarians...Pro-choice, minority rights, etc etc. which is fine...and of which there is much overlap with PC types, yet the ACDC types don't wish to even remotely entertain the same BASIC rights on a macro scale...ie apply to the entire country equitably from coast -to- coast.

In essence, do the ACDC types = Lefties on a Micro scale ....but ACDC types = neo-cons on a Macro scale ?

Is the converse true for "PC" types = Lefties on Macro scale etc.?

Seems to me...prior to Trudeau.... at least it was masked better/less obvious......but it appears Trudeau , when in power, wanted to entrench it , expose it, publicize it and rub it in certain "so-called equal" peoples' faces.

The "ACDC" types conveniently ignore it , and avoid the responsible Western Union (aka Canadian citizen UNION )Shop Steward " advocacy approach to try and maintain a balance in their Western Canada Union "LOCAL ". The ACDC types really should adjust their programming.

Perhaps if we all in the West maintained a Maritime accent peppered with a little Jean Chretien Francais(?)...we'd confuse EASTERN HEAD OFFICE the Left -of- Center "ACDC" types seem to blindly worship...and the equality would flow OUR way.

Worth a try.

PS Pass the "hooch" and salted cod...Oui !!!

re: HOUSE OF CANADA.

QUOTE : ''Write me back when you really know what Acadian driftwood means.''

Perhaps I can offer an explanation .Simple and straight forward.As a way to get my foot in the door, here. (*In these discussions that are condemned to be repeated time and time again due to a deep, DEEP - I was going to say integration- but actually wanted to say IGNORANCE... ) THAT IS TO BE FOUND RIGHT WITHIN OUR MIDST .

UN ACADIEN* ERRANT., I would suggest offers to an open mind a beginning framework to eventually get at a meaning such as ACADIAN DRIFTWOOD .. would in effect mean.

But the question of meaning depends entirely on the individual that poses the question , and even more fundamental goes to the very core of the INTENTIONS behind the reasons of that ( the individual) in question raises..

The question of meaning also goes to the INTENTIONS also of the individual who chooses to attempt or give an answer to the question at hand.

THUS , I would hope that I bring a window of opportunity for a DIALOG that will open windows rather then shut them.. and in doing so will achieve a worthy cause such as the title.. , which one other uses to blur his very own intentions..( WHICH IS PERHAPS NOT INTENTIONAL BUT STILL VERY MUCH THE RESULTING '' cause and effect '' syndrome of reaching UN CUL DE SAC.. when he (maestro ) speaks of...

Keeping Canada together as CANADA... :

Village:

Hello again Village:

I see a bit of a style change in your last few posts.

The basic premise again is when one walks through the door, is it equality as a given ? , or does one have the acquire it as part of the process, ie one has a handicap, much like golf, at the interim.

Hence my "UNION" etc. model. Models work well in discussion, especially if they parallel the situation quite closely they can also strengthen ones argument and simplify things down to the basics.

As you say, this discussions are condemned(?) to be repeated time after time. However, what clouds these types of issues are parties that at the interim make unsubstantied claims as to ones agenda or accusations of biases....ie" you are a redneck"..." selfish westerner"..in a sort of sandbox fight.

That type of "rebuttal" no only goes nowhere, it indicts the other side even more. Apologists and denialists abound throught history, and live on and live off perceptions and stereotypes.

Canada as CANADA ,, effectively, is a strong CHAIN dependent on strong LINKS between them ... not an assumption while it rusts slowly and is pulled in many directions.

CHAINS indeed ! , rust and all...

OUR MEMORIES ... ( Our understanding , our ability to actually admit our VAST IGNORANCE of this LAND..., called CANADA*)

Ships and Anchors coming to mind on that one Maestro.

quote :

''The basic premise again is when one walks through the door, is it equality as a given ? , or does one have the acquire it as part of the process, ie one has a handicap, much like golf, at the interim.''

Let's use the analogy of you walking in your HOUSE... ( then think : HOUSE OF CANADA )..

Ask yourself the question you ask above .
When you walk into your house - apartment or condo - do you EXPERIENCE '' equality as a given ? OR as you put it so well.., do you acquire it
( EQUALITY) as part of the process itself..

of course your very unique and personal lifestyle and family history- if there is one - will determine how you respond to this question. and me thinks it is the same of the HOUSE OF CANADA and all of it's inhabitants.. (HABS and all).. , who clearly with whichever frame of reference you wish to approach this analogy will shed some light to the very question you raise..

( which by the way I think is a very valid question and needs to be pondered by one and all.., who dearly seeks an answer to the questions you raise ).

QUOTE :

''Canada as CANADA ,, effectively, is a strong CHAIN dependent on strong LINKS between them ... not an assumption while it rusts slowly and is pulled in many directions.''

So what are we to do Maestro , to put an end to this GOING NOWHERE'S ?

Do you not feel that we could get ahead by opening up the DIALOG in ... much like one would by attempting to get at the RINGS OF A TREE AND STUDYING VERY CAREFULLY IT'S UNIQUE AND PARTICULAR LIFE JOURNEY..... ( you know , as we've learned to do .., by studying the age and periods that are clearly etched within a tree's cycles.., ),.and through it's full life cycle , detect it's strengths and deficiencies.., so as to take corrective action to prevent ... deterioration ,to in effect bring about a rejuvenation ... if the results of that obvious deeper analysis points to what ...,event in the tree's life cycle that impacted on it's integrity.., on it's DNA IDENTITY...

What I'm trying to say is.. can we not break the very cycle of people wanting to clash.., wanting to create waves, wanting to churn up a storm.. indeed, coming back to your CHAINS and the RUST that accumulates..,

Each ship travelling ( passing in the night of ignorance ) in unchartered waters..,

Having sextant , maps ,and tools of navigation.., in hand.., as ISLANDS UNTO THEMSELVES.. yet not fully aware of that universal foundation of needing to connect up with other ISLANDS.., thus
seeking a resolution Maestro to a repeater like syndrome..

Let's try to chart a course Maestro for a 21st Century Canada... (are you up to it?)

Do we and can we not in CANADA.., go deeper within our very BODY POLITIC and CULTURE to get at the very core reason for the existence of the KNOT.., within..?

Of Trees and Forest and Roots..analogies and ALL.VILLAGE.,

QUOTE: ''Hence my "UNION"

QUOTE:

''Hence my "UNION" etc. model. Models work well in discussion, especially if they parallel the situation quite closely they can also strengthen ones argument and simplify things down to the basics.''

If you replaced one word in the above quote you would get at the very core essence of communications . This is my contention.

Let's try it :

'' ''Hence my "UNION" etc. model. Models work well in discussion, especially if they parallel the situation quite closely they can also strengthen ones OBSERVATIONS and simplify things down to the basics.''

The very communications grid you place to the viewer will, in effect, provide the EITHER '' OPEN ARCHITECTURE '' OF COMMUNICATIONS or ..., ( well we all know the other )..

I'm away for most of the day.. but will look for your very astute observations on a very important matter. ( or is it MIND?)

VILLAGE .

VIRTUAL CANADA .

Time for a '' REALITY CHECK ''. Any and all comments are welcomed.

Thanks ,
Village.

Village;

Each situation is unique....but ultimately when it involves a group ie group= "2 or M-O-R-E " , in this case millions in a country that is regionalized into unique links in the collectivve chain.

It's basically " How are the Masses kept at Bay"....or distracted/detracted for revolution and maintain this link.

Not persoanlly a big beleiver in divorce at many different levels, but in the bigger picture, sometimes going ones separate ways benefits all concerned, to do otherwise is of greater ultimate cost. All Empires crumble, and even various variations of that within a so-called peaceful nation.

Perpetuating that which cannot be reconciled simply exposes poor leadership as smoke and mirro charlatans,who have failed us, and their life support is the assumption the Masses are ignorant and not simmering.

History has shown us that.

maestro

What ARE you saying?

QUOTE : ''There is ALWAYS

QUOTE :

''There is ALWAYS such a "Critical Mass" catalyst in most things...maybe this one would best be named " Political Bankruptcy " the status- quo is like any empire, doomed to collapse...QUIT using the poli-Duct Tape ....time to move on...and quit being in denial. " We caught you in bed with Eastern Canada ...AGAIN!!!"''

How about[i] : ''There is ALWAYS such a "Critical Mass" MOMENT OF EPIPHANY BECOMING THAT MOMENT OF EUREKA . THIS BEING A catalyst DYNAMIC AND FORCE in most things ( THAT MATTERS and MINDS..) ...maybe this one would best be named " a COMMUNICATIONS approach to Bankruptcy ". The status- quo IN ANY THINKING APPARATUS CONTEXT AND CONSTRUCT is like any empire, doomed to collapse...QUIT using the poli-SCIENCE101 Duct Tape ....time to move on...and quit being in denial. " We caught you in bed with THE NO ( READ DENIAL OF)Canada ...AGAIN!!!"''

[i]Food for thought. , from one who believes that IMAGINATION failure is not an option .

VILLAGE ,

Alci:

Maybe open thine mind a bit...

VILLAGE and I seem to carry on a pretty good dialogue on this and related issues...We seem to take the cues from each other which leads to interesting tangents and perspectives.

Village and I are perhaps on the same wavelength and overall objective, but we approach it from different angles.

I look forward to Villages comments, they encourage and inspire different takes and perspectives. Our whole discussion waaaaay baaaack months ago seem to have started on how and where did this(ie Quebec and overall Canadian unity ) all start 100's of years ago ? Right from the genesis of New World North America and Canada . It has evolved from there.

My stand is simply IF it is broke, fix it....IS it broke?

....OR is it meant to either (i)stay broken or even worse(ii) made to look broken or perceived to be broken,propogandized as such, which then serves the interests of a few.

Much like an arsonist who is also a Fireman.

Canada seems to be a country that exists on the exploitation of old issues, and NOT actual resolution and finality, and however resolution and finality it is to be achieved by the grassroots stakeholders on both sides, is apparently NOT in the best interests of the " Powers that Be " for this to happen. Hence my previous "Chain and Link" analogy.

Chain links also have enough room for wedges...as another analogy. Divide and conquer, and how many times can the Country be "saved" from perceived problems ...and the Masses still lap it up. Issues such as these show how truly bereft of true leadership we really are.

Borders don't really exist, they are simply beholden to abstract pen strokes and signatures.

However, whether the problems are real or perceived at times can be a moot point, they are effectively the same , the " Reality" vs the "Big Lie" are indistinguishable, and delay = denial. A point of no return often creeps up, and a fix is no longer on the radar screen, it becomes irreconcialable.

Again , open your mind...

maestro

This is not, in my view, a question of an open mind.

You may have good ideas; so may Village. The point is that, hard as you both may try, you write poorly and your prose lacks the clarity and incisiveness necessary to engage a reader in this format.

You both tend to use analogy and anecdote - perfectly good literary and rhetorical devices in a longer format but neither of which, in this kind of forum, have much chance of being effective: Sometimes they work but not often and often not very well.

Furthermore, you, and village to a lesser extent, seem to have a strange and rather pathetic longing for 'strong leadership' in a time when - at least in my opinion - that kind of solution has been found both wanting and deficient. Perhaps we come from different backgrounds. Perhaps that's why you and he can have a discussion of sorts and find it somehow satisfying - I don't and I can't be bothered to read it most of the time.

Moreover, although the three of us analyze the solution to many problems in a modern well-educated and engaged society in fundamentally different ways, if I had to choose an interlocutor to discuss issues with it would be village and not you.

Despite his discursive style I find his heart more engaged in what he writes than than yours is. Subsequent to what you said in response to Ann Cameron and the issues she was discussing - (similar issues to those of three current threads above us here upon which I see you have voiced no comment) - I think your heart is either non-existent, or in the wrong place.

Sorry, but you asked for it.

My mind and my heart, I hope, have been open all along. All this is tempered by the observation that these are nothing more than my opinions.

ONE + ONE = THREE.

What of the knot itself ? ( Surely in the years of our seasons and cycles.., we in a tree like fashion have endured various forms of obstacles and obstructions that invariably has shaped our collective MINDS...)

My fascination with the DIAL- A - LOG ... stems from the power of the forest and trees and roots metaphor. We are what we imagine ourselves to be..( each and everyone of us ) .

And as we reach out to others , in the fashion of one, two and tree , WE CREATE A MOMENTUM FOR TRANSFORMATIVE CHANGE in our mutually different and diverse modes of thinking*..

I truly believe that contributions way above from Gwest for instance , as he keeps a steady course in his interventions brings hope for the kind of breakthrough that I am certain we (COLLECTIVELY ) are all secretly pining for.

The HOUSE OF and MIND OF ( CANADA ) language that I prefer , is a way to offer up a '' communications grid '' of mutually satisfying EXPLORATIONS and eventual DISCOVERY of the ignorance we all suffer from. ( due to vast distances and disconnect ).

Hence my interest in expanding this kind of exchange to another level.. where we would in a different context and setting move up the COMMUNICATIONS CHAIN and LADDER ( if you will) .. , ( if you want also )..

Thus my interest to see eventually a conference style meeting of the contributors of these FORUMS that are interesting by and of themselves.. but could become more MIND EXPANDING and MIND EXPLORATION and DISCOVERY through a meeting of not only the MINDS.. ( as we attempt this in these virtual chambers );

But more interesting would be for all of us to agree to take these initial forays to another level..by agreeing to meeting face to face and in a PANEL LIKE FORMAT , if that makes you more comfortable .. to in effect take our COMMUNICATIONS ...,further in the hope of a breakthrough..,

So that our HOUSE of CANADA .., stands it's ground.., as global communications forces.. bombard the individual AND collective minds of this planet..

IT IS AFTER ALL ... , A BATTLE ROYAL... for the HEARTS AND MINDS... of every living soul on this earth...*

( this is what we are faced with..., as an experiment )..,

As to the trees .....

THEMSELVES...

yes , all three of us . ( making an interesting beginning of a tiny hint at a forest - so to speak - creating along the way a modus apparatus for bringing about COMMUNICATIONS... ) as a means to an end AND BEGINNING.

In this land of STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND.

Who knows perhaps even Gwest would join us in the thick of it all...

How about ...

at a Philosopher's Café.?

With a provocative title... such as DOES CANADA EXIST?

Village,

P.S. ( I still hear Peter Newman's brilliant punch line.., when giving his lecture at UBC..., entitled ..: WILL CANADA SURVIVE. ? - or something to that effect .)

HIS REPLY , TO HIS VERY OWN CONCOCTED QUESTION WAS ... STATING WITH A STRONG LINE THAT BOLDLY STATED..,

'' A DEFINITE!!!!!! maybe . ''

At that lecture I raised the CANADIEN* dimention to him and it was clear to me from his reply that he had a very shallow understanding of that particular DNA IDENTITY of ours.

ACTUALLY IT WAS :

'' A RESOUNDING maybe''

Well Alci:

My experiences is that your condescending comments re: " Her Majesty's English" is simply a desperate attempt to mask a closed mind ( if you can understand that) and deflect things away from the core points .

Anyone can rant that ad - nauseum party line that the Worlds problems were created by European Imperialism /Expansionism and the subsequent advances of the Industrial Revolution. So, now what? , and should we explore "guilt" elsewhere and reach a global verdict? Probably end up "a wash" anyway?

Re: my anecdote and analogy use???...sorry, you would perceive Einsteins "E = MC squared " as an anecdote.

You seem to cling to whatever subjective facts fit your agenda/views...or you are easily swayed by the same party line ideology and its own Unifying Theory, whichever comes first(...gee is that using an analogy?).

Anne Cameron???...what a JOKE.... that was truly a TYEE classic. I think I was too polite with her...did you and G West contact her with the Ouija board ? Her ranting comments full of unsubstantiated insinuations on a rather delicate topic are something to be seriously avoided with a 10 km pole by most people ...eh Alci..yet it seems that obviously you support her and her views..right Alci?

Ugghh!

It's been mentioned by others the Leftie ambush that often seems to happen . You and your possee' seemed to dreg up comparisons with some other TYEE comment (which I never read the original by the way) by someone which was rather extreme, yet feel it was equivalent to the conversation we had at hand...something about " 12 years old girls are___? "

Huh?

If Ms. Cameron wishes to be considered the re-incarnation of Ma Murray...go ahead Annie...she reminds me of the " higher purposed " Canadian Braintrust we have all come to know and ___???

Either separate yourself from that posse' Alci, or keep hanging yourself.

You ARE an very intelligent person Alci,no doubt, but what purpose you and your posse' members serve in many of these TYEE discussions makes one suspect you are contracted by the TYEE to generate traffic, but certainly not to engage in anything remotely resembling debate.

The sad thing is that , often , after I read a TYEE topic, I should " Bet the Farm " on the all- too - predictable oft program-like responses by the usual TYEE suspects.

Thank you

Thank you for providing just a little more fresh evidence of what I was saying.

It's nice when you do that.

It obviates the necessity of my having to make any further comment.

I sure would like to hear ANNE CAMERON ...

respond to this Maestro. ( I am not privy to what you are referring to and I would need links or referencing of some kind or other to make any assessment of what I'm reading at the moment. )¸

Both yourself and Alci have - obviously - a long history of '' to and fro '' and I cannot fully grasp what either of you are really talking about at this moment . ( not being privy to the background discussions that could perhaps throw some light on your obvious DIFFERENCES...

I thought your earlier reply Maestro had an interesting angle to it..., as you responded to Alci's earlier comments. However the very last comments you make and Alci's approach create a certain animosity at the moment that simply is not necessary.

I also found Alci's reply worthy of reflection in many ways in that HE WAS FORTHRIGHT in his observations and gave his thoughts on the WRITING STYLE and further observations of MEANING AND CONTENT.. (and these I found interesting..)

I am not at all offended by reflections that bring about a genuine held belief of whatever nature...,from anyone who genuinely believes what they have to say ( for one will always learn of HUMAN NATURE itself... , if nothing else, by carefully listening to what another interlocutor has to say...)

SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS HAVE BOTH OF YOU BACK UP JUST A LITTLE.., AND TAKE IT WHERE THE OBSERVATIONS WERE '' LESS ANTAGONISTIC TO EACH OTHER AND MORE CONCILIATORY TO THE LARGER PICTURE OF IDEAS*. ( EXCHANGE )...

My own views on all commentators in this FORUM is that we are all groping for some kind of TRUTH .., or CONNECTION ..,( engaging ourselves in a societal project called COMMUNITY (*) BRAIN THRUST ,if you will where as thinking animals - all - we are taping into the genius of the homo sapiens.. ESPECIALLY WHEN HE OR SHE DECIDES TO USE IT TO SOME POSITIVE END...

Can we then BEGIN anew..? ( the discussions ) . From a less personal angle and more from an exchange of ideas and intelligence itself..?

I appreciate both of your strengths and would hope that you can see also your respective weaknesses.., ( As I acknowledge my very own .., ( writing style , that is )_

In my case .. I write the way I would speak in front of an audience or in a room full of people.., or if I sat on a panel...

(*I acknowledge Alci's comments in that I am aware that I might be difficult to read. I also appreciate that he can see the effort and the heart that I put into it .)

I also enjoy your very expanding mind - Maestro - when you apply it to ideas.., rather then tactical communications strategising .

We all could learn from each others approach and skills honed over a life time of passionate engagement in our surroundings , neighbourhoods , or community*..

( and even if this is the only community that any of you have ever engaged in... I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I AM VERY PROUD TO RECOGNISE THE COURAGE AND THE DETERMINATION THAT EVERYONE OF THESE CONTRIBUTORS MAKE.., bringing a contribution RATHER THEN STAYING ON THE SIDE LINES...

for this I thank both of you and others who might want to add to these comments *

Take Care,
Village .

Anne Cameron

Village:

The piece is near the end of the comments on this thread

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/01/30/Charter/

I hope it works for you. I think she's a fine writer and I'm sure you'll enjoy reading what she has to say. I certainly did.

Village:

Well...

....as another reflection...

One enters a door much like the old Twilight Zone show used to allude to.

There was a past comment on a past TYEE topic on how the TYEE is like the CHEERS show...we all come and go into this communal cyber pub and cyber debate.

If one follows TYEE topics...they start with a written article and then we cyber pub patrons make comments.

Unfortunately, it appears that some TYEE commentors seem to enter this cyber-Pub with various closed minded agendas and wish to bless us with their presence by preaching a subjective 'party line' they feel the rest of us must believe in or else they deem us as unworthy ignorant infidels ....OR else they more often leave in a condescending hissy fit...the usual COWARDS way out.

I invite you to look at the current " Costco vs Wal Mart" TYEE topic before it gets archived soon. You will notice one notorious TYEE commentor using their all- too -predictable political leanings to attack an organization Wal Mart ...or use their detest for this organization to hide their political leanings...whichever/whatever.

One can often empirically filter out a basic detest for the society we live in by some TYEE posters, which admittedly has its warts. However, Wal Mart does assist a facet of the socio economic spectrum.ie There is an upside to its size. However, Wal Mart has not wiped out the competition, it simply fills/fits a niche'.

I try to either accept the "warts" , or pick and choose the ones I feel can be addressed and possibly changed.

To be continued...

Village:

It is unfortunate when this form of cyber communication has to have side- bar issues ...but it is , shall we say, often a form of " self defence ".

Much as our mutual discussions are into exploration...from two different paths....the First Nations issue was not unlike the Canada "post First Nations" we often discuss.

Unfortunately my own path on the Pre "Canada" , ie First Nations has, shall we say, been quite interesting.
I have done a fair bit of research on it.

My own Canadian roots are as a First GENERATION Canadian. My ancestry is European and Canadian citizens since Post- World War II.

However in the Anne Cameron rant...somehow I and my own family am perceived as part of the blame for the treatment of First Nations. Sorry we had no part in that. I resent the implication and the other parties are typical of some TYEE commentors who are somewhat delusional and deflect issues and create the blame game.

There is a far greater likelihood that these TYEE posters ancestors are to blame for the First Nations issues. I fail to se why many more recent Canadians should even remotely be tarred with the rest...any jury would come to the same conclusion.

This is typical of their tactics. These types tend to be in denial of their own false gods...yet also mount petty shallow attacks with various bogus and unsubstantiated insinuations.

I could care less of Ms. Cameron's so called status in Canadian society, she had no right to engage me in the manner she did. In my view her credibility is below zero, but forewarned = forewarned for next time.

I am puzzled and perplexed by your reflections Maestro,..:

Could you expand on the subject matter of how you can feel personally attacked or whatever you experienced when you read her REFLECTIONS*..

I Personally thought she expressed with some eloquence her position and it seemed to me very thought out. Yes , I would think ELOQUENCE speaks and describes well what I experienced in reading her contribution to what is a very complex and emotionally laden - obviously very well exhibited by your knee jerk reaction - ISSUE.

And for whatever reasons you feel personally attacked by this - again - very ELOQUENT PLEA for her position..., I truly fail to grasp your stance on this matter .. ( or is it MIND ? ) ...

Take care , and expand a bit more so that a better understanding ... (* innerstanding and outerstanding ) of your very own MIND UNIVERSE can be more fully grasped within this FORUM..,

Your skills are very much in evidence at times.., and more of that particular attribute would advance further the process itself of IDEAS EXCHANGE .. which after all is the journey we are all on .., isn`t it!

Of course , having missed the full article and comments , prior to being made aware of it's existence above.. I must say that I'd have reflections and observations to contribute... HOWEVER .., that will be for another time.

( Contractual obligations are now calling ) ..

I will look for your comments Maestro..
AND thanks ALCI for providing the link..

Overall I'm gratefull for the debate that occured on that subject matter ( FIRST NATIONS ).. and as I take in the various points of view ., it is clear that there needs deeper reflection and a better grasp of HISTORY itself.., (not as it was necessarily passed on to us) .., but as to deeper evidence that emerges as we refine our probes...

A case in point is how DNA has become so critical to get at a deeper truth and EVIDENCE... when taking in a crime scene..

And since the Picton Farm was mentioned , obvious connections can be made to that , and of course the horror story that has yet to be fully disclosed , on matters , minds and attitudes that could have created such an occurence..,

Village ,

As to your Ancestors, and the FIRST NATIONS... in our quest for

IDENTITY...

The very nature of the Homo Sapiens to congregate ... to in effect share the '' thinking animals ''propensity to ..., well THINK.., ( not that no other animals think ) , it's just that we haven't been smart enough to stop the chatter going on in our ever imaginative brains to take the time to learn the simplicity of NATURE'S COMMUNICATIONS and CODES...

And as a matter of mind and fact.., every time we did that very thing.., we learned to copy her millions of years of engineering*.. We called this INVENTIONS*

Thus it is with thoughts of a BODY POLITIC and it's COLLECTIVE MIND processing...which ends up creating a SOCIETY.., such as ours..,be it , cities , villages.., or provinces , countries and what have you..., that I've decided to offer up certain observations.

This MIND - that we all possess - for better or for worst - , Maestro..,has a way of capturing all of our individual thoughts in so many ways.., why with the governance model we adopt for instance.., finding a way.. as it does.., to tap into what I call the COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE*..

This is the secret of our success as HOMO SAPIENS..., lording over the earth.. as if we are the only intelligence around.., all the while having simply learned to mimic, for the most part , what nature had developed over billions of years..,

Thus what does this have to do with ANCESTORS and FIRST NATIONS ? ...,well.,
the source and the well itself.. is very deep..,

( a way of stating that we pool our memories , our ideas and intelligence.., we've found a way to perpetuate and transcend space and time.., via a communications feat that no other living entity on this planet has.., ( at least in the material form)...

COMMUNICATIONS... be it writing , invention of paper.., then on to printing, telephone , television , film.., computers , satellites... AND on and on..,

Our ability to learn from our mistakes , to be able also to grow with each step we take in the unknown.., as we devise tools for probing and in a way.. . divining.. IMAGINING the path that will see us achieving PASSAGE.., as we get on with our journey..,

EXISTENCE, ITSELF...and the '' I think therefore I am..'' self awareness and consciousness are the very reason that we need to not only open up our minds to others ELOQUENT thoughts and feelings.., but we need to listen very carefully for it's veracity and ..above all.. .

INTENTION*..

I would say Ann Cameron's contribution was all of that , and more..,

As to feelings of being under attack and possible guilt associations to a well expressed and ELOQUENT plea.. , I would say.. ,

let's celebrate the heart and mind that shared her thoughts with us..,

I did not see any attempt at blame.., nor did I feel any other intention on her part but to contribute her well thought out experience and feelings.., as she opened up her MIND UNIVERSE ... for one and all to see..

Thank you ANNE CAMERON. ( MAESTRO.., LOOK AT THE ROOT ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATIONS in all of this..,

and neither the forest of confusion nor the simplicity of the tree itself.. will get in the way of going deeper and exploring along with discovering the very ROOTS of thinking and communicating itself..

This is the gift that she has given us..

As to ALCI, and Gwest .., both eloquent speakers from all or ( most of what I've seen so far.., well researched.., or at least well presented with what I feel has an undertone of and modicum of RESPECT..*

Congratulations gentleman..,

Maestro..,. your genius.., is not being afraid to speak before you think at times.., ( and guess what , there is a certain advantage- in appropriate situations, which creates the very context and at times content for an enlightened COMMUNICATIONS to happen...)

You become at times a catalyst , and a spark for igniting the engine of ideas..., (* when you focus on the IDEAS themselves .. rather then on the suspicions that people are attacking you personally..., ) I will always remember that you were one of the first to engage with me., on issues that I was offering..,and this goes a long way in explaining why I appreciate the role you play in all of this..,

Do not take anything personal on observations made within this forum.., ( firstly because our respective minds.., at one time or another plays tricks on all of us.. WE ARE AFTER ALL..,in fusion and in fission... caught into a cauldron of ideas.., ( and much like fire itself.., there are many ways to interpret it's power and intensity )...

Thus is the brain in it's capacity to imagine whatever you wish it to IMAGINE.., (* and all of us .., harness that capacity and option... and at times..,find ourselves other times lose ourselves.., in a well of , and stream, river .. what have you .., of very abstract thought itself.. Thus don't be blinded by the thought that every criticism made your way is personal.. IT SIMPLY IS NOT ! * ( instead what I see are people who appreciate your quick mind and yet at the same time.. would like to see you tame the beast within..,- so to speak - which at times wakes up .. the demons.. in all of us..*.. ( be it in whatever forms.., ALL IMAGINATIVE BEINGS...are caught with a double edged sword.. that can create or destroy... the very source that attracts us so.. (INTELLIGENCE*..)

You should see .., instead that the art of communications.. asks of all of us.. to battle the ideas AND NOT THE INDIVIDUALS nor their PERSONALITIES...,

and so.., keep up the good work.., Maestro.., just become aware that in effect you do misread other people's intentions when they intervene.. on any chosen matter.. ( and MIND ) issues..

There , I'm aware that this is very lengthy and perhaps .. difficult to read.., ( as I am on what I call.., a stream of consciousness , as i write..)..

Wanting to see in the way how far this MIND wants to take this particular stream..*

Hence with snow and nature calling.., I will go for a walk now.., and await reactions to my attempt at communicating a frame of reference for further exploration and discovery...,

»I remain,, a stranger in a strange land.

In good spirits and
putting out my hand.
Village.

Give it Back!

The first thing Anne Cameron has to do is give back the land that she says her ancestors bought that was misrepresented.

If it's lost to history then give back in-kind. If I buy stolen goods they are, technically, not my property. Anne would be making a magnanimous act that other could emulate.

If you buy stolen goods that are technically ...

???????? ( not your property ) ... realisticman ? .

THE KEY SENTENCE YOU LEFT OUT OF YOUR OBSERVATION WAS THE FACT THAT SHE STATED:
IT- THE LAND- WAS NEVER CEDED BY THE FIRST NATIONS PEOPLE..,

so in effect it's like if you go to the pawn shop , realisticman , and discover that what's for sale, is your very own property that was stolen from you...,

WHAT WOULD YOU DO..? ( especially if you buy without realising at first, or better yet, discovering later that it belonged to you and that -in effect- you'd bought property that was yours to begin with...*

I guess I'm trying to tell you that your suggestion at the end of your observations seems to reach a very STRANGE CONCLUSION..., to say the least..*

Would you like to give it another try?
I can't seem to make any sense of it all.
*i.e.( your conclusions ).. WOULD YOU CARE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF TO THE READERS ..?