a strange disconnect? hey

a strange disconnect? hey how about this one - when I was a kid growing up inthe 70's, the right were the reactionaries...now it's the left. Very disconcerting.

But I liked your piece and the suggestions were amusing, certainly.

What if the NDP pass the Dirty Oil Act?...

Oh Murray, always the hack...

Too bad the Dirty Oil Act is going to get passed by the "left" to avoid the embarassment of losing seats in paliament for an election that is justified this time around (unlike last time)...

So here's one: what is NEW about the New Democratic Party. And if they are so democratic, why aren't they pushing for electoral reform?

The Greens are rising despite your antics of ill will towards them.

reframing

We can't do without Capitalism, so portraying it as the enemy only achieves shooting ourselves in the foot.

The problem is with the Capitalist, and his/her promotion of the variant of Democracy called Fascism (just as Socialism is also a variant of Democracy)

Is "Fascism" too outre, perhaps outdated? Then we have to find an equally descriptive word that conveys the same meaning, before we can mount a successful attack upon these crooks.

Remember how much coverage David Lewis got by rephrasing their propaganda with "Corporate Welfare Bums"?

Capitalism

Firstly, I'm not sure I agree with this. In BC, I believe we are pretty polar. Many agree with me, many agree with Mr. Dobbin - the are some urbanites in between.

The right hasn't had to frame anything. Leftist governments in BC, Canada and worldwide have made demonstrated that big government = big taxes, less accountability for tax dollars, massive budget overruns, pandering to special interest groups, more scandal, more broken promises, etc.

Time and time again, we've heard Liberal and NDP government talk big and promise!! Time and time again - they've fallen short! The NDP left us in the worst state BC has ever, ever been in. I know some people have short memories, but there is a reason by they won all but two east vancouver seats - in a province full of leftie havens....

I think Mr. Harper is the finest, most decisive PM we've ever had - and I look forward to years of the Tories governing this country!!

Further...

I agree that many Canadians like to think they are progressive. Thus, every once in a while they fall for Glen Clark style sound-bytes! Speaking of the master at framing issues.

Every so often, Canadians will listen some of the ideologies and visions of the left - and vote them in. They always hate what they see. Normally, the leftist party gets turfed heavily in the next election....

It's always been said that the left can get you to popsicle stand - they simply can't manage it.

Quote:big taxes, less

I don't know, this sounds more like GWB's America to me.

Re- Framing Tips for the Left

Majority of Voters : " Hey Leftie Ltd. , your nose is growing (again)."

Leftie Ltd. : " Our nose isn't growing...our face is simply receeding ".

OR New Improved Leftie Ltd. version:
" Our nose isn't growing...our face is receeding...much like the polar ice caps stop Global Warming ."

Why play the "framing" game at all?

"Titled" or "entitled", "left" or "right"?

When are we going to recognize that what is really needed is a new electoral system, people that represent the people of this country, a new kind of politician? When are we going to start putting our energy into the things we want for our futures and start going around and above the things we do not want?

Ignoring Harper, going around him, going above him depletes his energy. Focus only on those with the policies, character and integrity we would want representing our voice. Energize the positive. Reframing is just another way of saying "elephant".

We can find some more ...

Don't say the conservatives are for "traditional marriage," say they are "bigots."

Don't say they want "tax relief," say they "hate poor people."

Hey, it was the Conservatives that just released attack style campaign adds against Dion. It's time the left started to play the game to win. If I was Dion, the first thing I'd ask Harper during the "debate" that will eventually occur is why he is a bigot and hates poor people.

It's more than reframing

The problem with the left is that they have become marginalized as they are now catering to special interest groups, not to what Canadian voters wishes. Many a left leaning Canadian voter is turned off by the stands the NDP is taking. The NDP must completely rethink itself and soon, if they are to survive politically.

Layton is way too weak to address the issue properly and I see no one who can. This why the 'Green' party may become the new left party in a few elections.

Verso

Believe me when I say I can't wait for GWB's government to go away. It has made it all too easy for you lefties to point to as right wing failure.

I urge you to consider Raegan's record over Bush. Consider Clinton too! He presided over a Rupublican Congress and Senate. Remember, in the U.S. spending is earmarked by congress - it is congress' budget.

Bush has been a failure, because his once fine party, controlled by the Rockafellers, etc. is now controlled by evangelical christian groups. These people are rigid ideologues - they are the polar opposites of the far left. Both are consumed by social agendas....

Clinton did veto some of the proposed tax cuts, etc.

the Liberal "Big Lie"

"The NDP left us in the worst state BC has ever, ever been in."

- says Capitalism. Once again, he trots out the Liberal "Big Lie". The NDP left office with a SURPLUS. Get your facts straight if you expect anyone to listen to you.
The current Liberal "Big Lie": "The Olympics will only cost 600 million". The next Liberal "Big Lie": "I had no idea David Basi was doing all those illegal things."
Goebbels would be proud...

The " Frame Game "

The framing game simply indicates an inclusion of " X " and an exclusion of " NON -X ".

We are simply into political marketing.

The die have been cast decades ago..." X " is what will gain " Y " party an reasonably well - educated guess as to what will gain them the keys to Ottawa.

Canada's regionalization is too deep...and the country itself too large, ...and the population too sparse.

Urban concentrations of the relatively sparse Canadian populations seem to create a quasi-cage where a few shallow surficial issues can get FRAMED and the candidates simply exploit them.

Urban voters , at least in my experience are not the equivalent of smart and savvy Voters as far as the issues nor the candidates...,and if the isues are FRAMED properly, they will vote accordingly.

So, in hindsight, whose to blame ? ....self - induced Voter ignorance OR Political parties and their democratic right to "FRAME" etc. and take advantage of what the Public basically allows them or defers to them ?

" X" in the Poli- FRAME , as it currently stands will be Environment and Climate Change. The EAST has had about a 300 year head -start to the WEST with respect to enviro- etc. impact...yet one can read the poli-tea leaves that the WEST will pay the freight.

Perhaps time to formally acknowledge the Balkan regions of Canada, if not the Balkan states... err Provinces...and plan the next FRAMED "X" accordingly.

Very good..

Great article! I don't agree with everything said, but at least someone finally started talking about this whole framing/spinning thing.
Harper's incredibly good at it and everyone else is behind the ball...
Lets step it up.

Excellent

Well said Mr. Dobbin. It's important to remember why it is particularly difficult for the left to have its message heard: media monopoly. This alone accounts for a significant loss of the proper workings of a democratic society. Without a multiplicity of voices, we have little real choice in our debates. So we need to follow the advice given above, and we also need to embrace alternative sources of media. Like the Tyee!!

To hell with the truth....

...in other words, the systematic deception of anyone incapable of thinking critically about the message; by way of fallacies of relevance, straw men, or blatant untruths.

Facts, ethical arguments, or opinions stated with conviction are no longer enough, it seems, to succeed in modern politics. One needs to crawl into the same muckraking discourse as one's opponents and start slinging....

Right and Left are equally guilty of this. The right has just been a bit more up front about what they're doing....

JUST IN : Ol' Garth got " FRAMED ."

I see Garth Turner has now framed himself as a Federal LIEberal...too bad...the other two choice were far better , relatively speaking .

In ol' " Don Corleone meets Happy Hooker" ie a likely " offer he couldn't refuse " ....Garth gave into temptation ...probably enjoys the perks of MP office and sees that running as an Independent next time he'd be SOL.

Political prostitution IS legal, obviously.

Not surprising

It is not surprising that there is a disconnect between the progressive values of the majority of Canadians and the governments they "elect". When is the last time we had a government elected with a majority of the votes? Most often it is possible to get elected and have a majority governemnt with about 40% of the popular vote. We have 4 or 5 or 6 parties running federally with an electoral system that is designed to work best in a 2-party situation. Voters know that and in the past this has resulted in the marginalization of the NDP to the benefit of the Liberals. Paul Martin's poor performance interrupted this pattern to the benefit of the Conservatives, who had in the meantime discovered the advantage of unity.
It is obvious from polls that Canadians are more progressive than their government or the media, but the real power is with the media and business.
At least two actions are needed: - continue the reform of political financing that was initiated by Jean Chretien; - change the elctoral system to one that would reflect the intentions of Canadians. Don't hold your breath, and in the meantime support the political action groups of your choice that seem to be more committed and more effective at achieving change than traditional parties.

Way to demonize ...

"In ol' " Don Corleone meets Happy Hooker" ie a likely " offer he couldn't refuse " ....Garth gave into temptation ...probably enjoys the perks of MP office and sees that running as an Independent next time he'd be SOL."

Great job demonizing a politician who speaks his mind. He was thrown out of the Conservative caucus for it. I give credit to the Liberals for building a wide tent of opinions. Too bad the Conservatives won't let their MPs think for themselves.

Relayer

You gotta be kidding me....

The NDP did leave with a surplus - however the surplus was created by two things (1) an increase in debt underwritings (NDP doubled the debt from 17B to 34B in their time) and the Powerex windfall created by the California Rolling blackouts and Enron - which sent power rates exported 200x higher....

The NDP doubled our debt, left us with the lowest economic growth in the country (including newfoundland), the highest taxes in the country, some of the highest unemployment rates our province has ever seen, the lowest business confidence in history and a massive recipeint of federal transfer payments - i.e. handouts, which you lefties have no problems collecting...

I was working out in Ontario a fair bit back then and believe me when I say we were the laughing stock of the country! All the potential, the ocean, tourism, resources, weather - and nothing to show for it.....

Nowadays, we no longer recieve transfer payments (handouts), have amongst the lowest taxes in the country, the lowest unemployment rates in history (despite the rising interest rates, housing slowdown and falling energy prices), the highest business and consumer confidence on record, massive surpluses (which came at the expense of several deficits) and moderate debt reduction...

Say what you want about how the Liberals accomplished this....sure they were helped by interest rates and energy prices - however they were hurt by 9/11 and SARS. Sure, they drastically cut social services, etc. etc.

However, don't dilute yourself. The proof really is in the pudding - BC has NEVER been this fiscally secure....EVER!!

One catch phrase missed by

One catch phrase missed by Murray is "new government" used every time Harpo, or any of his stooges talks. The word "new" has been an old advertising gimmick for ages.

Other things they never mention is that "small government" means "big business".

Government can be questioned and held accountable, but business isn't, unless somebody wants to face SLAPP suits.

When Junior Bennett fired 10,000 civil servants, in 1983, to "reduce the size of government" the majority were hired back, including one of my neighbours as "private contractors", up to double of the former wages. They said, their firing was the best thing ever happened to them.

When Zalm privatized the road services, he threw the public at the mercy of private, cost cutting contractors, lousy road conditions at much higher costs to the taxpayer. I've just signed a large p[ublic petition against our newest "low bidder" contractor, dreaming about the srvices we had under Alex Fraser, fired by Zalm for protesting the privatization.

Also, small businesses have to be honest to keep their customers, but big business survives on cheating, lies and daylight robbery to increase their profits.

Profits are necessary for businesses to survive, but they must be rewards by the public for good service. This has long gone into the garbage can of corporate propaganda.

The banks are making incredible profits on freshly created, imaginary money, while conspiring how to fire more employees and transfer more costs on the public.

Big business, especially the multinational mafia, like oil companies and supermarkets, distorted this into a form of taxation without representation.

We're watching the prices leapfrogging each other and nobody can do a damn thing about it. Governments don't dare to question it, because that would not be "friendly to business", so they throw their citizens to be stolen blind by professional crooks.

How many times are "sale" prices in the flyers not marked on the goods and programmed into cash registers. On one occasion, we caught $11.50 overcharge. Translated province wide it amounted to tens of millions fraudulently collected on goods we didn't even know about in other products and markets.

So, how do we "vote out" supermarkets, when they all conspire to cheat the public with leapfrogging prices amd theres no choice between them?

Ed Deak.

Murray missed

Sorry Murray, your attempt to frame this discussion missed the mark......

Belief tank

Garry Trudeau in the Jan 28th Doonesbury comic strip reframed the term "think tank". The Fraser Institute is now a "belief tank" in my mind. Thanks, Garry.

Chris H

Sorry...you missed my point .....but Garth Turner should have perhaps done a Chuck Cadman and sat as an Independent.

The LIEberals will simply absorb him and his voice muted...LIEberals are based on any nail head that stands out will be flattened ...ie Party unity first...OR ELSE..no sh!te disturbers SVP.

Joining the LIEberals simply indicts Garth, he knows the deal going IN...how can he not?

BTW BC has their own Tory MP who speaks their mind...rather freely...even if its against the so called "party line"..so far so good...want to hazard a guess who they are?

Nowadays, we no longer recieve transfer payments (handouts)

Another blatant lie Capitalism.

Here are the figures for equalization grants to British Columbia from the Federal Government:

Transfers to BC from the Federal Government: (all figures in millions)
2003/04 Equalization 320
2004/05 682
2005/06 590
2006/07 459

In 2006-07, support through major transfers to British Columbia will be approximately $6.8 billion (about $1,588 per person).[Including the health and social transfer which is above and beyond equalization]

What makes you think you can get away with this stuff?

Alci

This is not a blatant lie - if you read the documents - BC is not expected to receive anything for the next fiscal year. In 2004/2005, some anomoly in the calculation increased what we were receiving.

Harper has said, BC isn't getting squat after this year!

BC and reframing

During the 1990s BC was hit by two setbacks: the downturn in Asian markets, and the cutbacks in Fed transfers. As we got into the election that first brought the Campbell crowd to gvt, everyone knew that the transfer payments were coming back and that the Asian markets were on the rebound. What provie gvt does is modify where the extras go; the ndps put it into their priorities, to the despair of Fraser Inst's donors, and what the Campbell crowd did was rearrange the channels so that Fraser Inst donors received the extras.
When them-that-has get government largess it is called ínfrastructure and incentives to investment. When parents and families get some gvt help it is called welfare and a burden on the taxpayer.

actually I'm thinking about

actually I'm thinking about stopping smoking pot and joining the conservatives....

Of course it's a blatant lie

This:

Is what you wrote.

Not this:
After fiscal 2006/07 BC will not receive equiliaztion payments under the current formula.

You were trying to make a cheap point at the expense of a government which hasn't been in power in BC since 2001. And you lied. Simple.

Capitalists do it all the time. It's how they stay in power.

'Yet we now have as prime

'Yet we now have as prime minister one of the most reactionary and radically right-wing politicians ever to hold office.' not much point in reading any further after that little piece of bullshit. blather on council of lefty canadians.

Not the Message, It's the Frame

Lakoff was a big noise in US lefty circles a couple of years ago. He provided the answer to the question which perplexed the DU/Koskids/netroots: "If we're right (and we know we are) how come John Kerry isn't President?"

The problem with the framing argument is that a bad painting with a good frame is still a bad painting. Put another way, lousy soap with great marketing will sell; but it will not sell as well as good soap with great marketing.

Politically, the new government of the Harper Conservatives needs to constantly remind people about the "old" government of the corrupt Liberals. This is not much of a problem because the new government is only a year old. however, substantively, the CPC has to demonstrate to the voters that it can be trusted with power and is capable of "getting things done."

This is why it is so entertaining watching Dion trying to pin the CPC to Kyoto. Every time he tries the Tories are given another chance to remind Canadians of the 13 years of inaction under Dion and the Liberals. It's like watching Charrlie Brown have the football snatched away by Lucy time after time: perhaps unfair but highly amusing.

The problem the Left faces in Canada is not framing; it is that the Left has been rendered irrelevant by its own obsession with identity politics and inherent anti-Americanism. (Trying to work Bush into every frame is getting very, very, tired.) In a robust economy where unemployment is low and inflation is low, the appeal of the Left is limited and no amount of framing is going to shift that.

Part of the genius of the now reviled Tony Blair and New Labour was that they were able to rebrand the left in England so as to reassure the middle class that they could be trusted to soften, but not destroy, the economic achievements of Mrs. Thatcher. Out went nationalization and kowtowing to the unions, in came neo-liberal redistributionalist schemes.

Blair did not change the frame, he changed the picture. He substantively altered Labour so that the "I'm alright, Jack." attitudes of old Labour were replaced with the hipper, more appealing and radically more realistic ideas behind "Cool Britannia" could prevail. For which a grateful nation elected Tony three times with majority governments.

Paintings are more important than their frames, substance trumps style and, to the consternation of the Kos kids, if you nominate a hollow man he will lose.

I said....

About 9 months ago, I said the Liberals will have their real test thrown at them. One shoe (commodity prices) has dropped and the other (real estate boom) has recently followed.

The true test of business and the economy of BC will be seen over the next couple of years. If you follow the phases of the economic life cycle, we should see 3-5 years of business investment, commerical and industrial real estate growth. Many of these companies are flushed with cash and will invest it over the next couple of years. They will invest the money, where they are confident they'll be able to capitalize over the next cycle.

If we see lots of investment in BC, that tells you that business is confident in BC. In the last slowdown, it took us a long time to recover. This is because businesses were fleeing BC because of the NDP!!!

Thankfully, those days are long behind us and BC will continue to enjoy prosperity.

Two Can Play

Oh Murray, you have been playing the framing game, you just didn’t know it. What about calling left wing thinkers “progressive”.
That’s what we need to help this country. Forget about coming up with fresh ideas that matter to average Canadians, we just need better slogans.
Brilliant.

Jay Currie says:

"

Could we have a list of those, please?

Blair a leftie?

So Tony Blair gets all red in the face and puts on his evil eye and he says to jay currie, he says,-Hey colony boy! who you calling a Leftie! You talking to me, colony boy?

Sometimes I thought that in times past that the left gave up its language and allowed the hucksters to define it all: all the hucksters had to do, and still do, is accuse a leftie of causing class divides, and the leftie backs off, as if talking about class exploitation is heresy. So the hucksters got to define socialism, working class, and all that...

...but then, I'm old fashioned to the extent that I don't really think that the bringing down of the Berlin Wall ended the struggle for justice for us all.

desperation on the Lieberals part

It displays desperation on the Lieberals part, in absorbing Barf Turner, desperate times requires desperate moves, this will wear good on them. On second thought, Barf does speak clear english, possibly he can interpret For Deeon, as I sure as dog turds can’t understand his pig english when he speaks.

El, I thought you were getting better

But after seeing this I guess not.

What in the world did the Coyote say to get himself banned?

Still not capable of anything but crude remarks.

You should get together with Cappy - she's into lies, obfuscation and avoidance - you'd get along swimmingly together. Maybe take a road trip to Vegas for a little R&R.

My Guess

"Party unity first...OR ELSE..no sh!te disturbers SVP."

Sounds like the Harper's new Conservative Party. Ask the press how easy it is to get any Conservative MP to answer any question.

"BTW BC has their own Tory MP who speaks their mind...rather freely...even if its against the so called "party line"..so far so good...want to hazard a guess who they are?"

Who? The old guy that gets arrested for fishing illegally? Whoever he/she is, they have pretty quiet about it since he/she become a sitting member of government.

AM I NOT THE GREATEST?

Garf do you walk about, with your hands clasped, looking up to the heavens extolling? ‘OH, How GREAT I ARE”.

Reframing

What a good idea, but it can work both ways.
Instead of "pro-choice", "pro-fetal snuffing"
Instead of "tolerance", "tolerance for those who think exactly like me"
Instead of "social justice" (see above)
Excellent idea.

Gavin

We both know I'm not a she.

What actually happened? I've seen the two of you exchanging personal e-mails. That's actually a rather scary thought - the two of you involved in one giant left-handed circle jerk - i now know how buildings get bombed.

you're so easy to rattle maybelle

It's not even fun anymore.

You see, I remember when and why you changed identities - you're a sexist and probably a misogynist too and you couldn't cope with the fact that people interpreted your original handle to mean that you were female. Bothers you a lot, doesn't it?

But keep it up with those comments:

And you'll get banned too. What Coyote posted was nowhere nearly as comprehensively in violation of the posting guidelines as what I've just bolded above here - your own words.

Let's hope Beers notices. If nothing else, it so clearly demonstrates the double standards of the 'tame one' - nothing feisty about this place anymore. Just crude remarks from guys who love getting “shit-faced”. And that’s your sentiment about yourself too, remember?

And no, you've never seen Coyote and me exchanging 'personal' emails. You really do have a problem with the truth don't you?

Clarity

To clarify that previous comment - it was an attempt at a metaphor to compare a gathering of you and your ilk to a cult...

I could only imagine the type of conspiracy theories and socialist anger that would be spewed.....

Don't read anything more into it. Man - you guys need to relax.

Socialist anger!

Is that different from Capitalist anger? Remember what you wrote about those kids from back east who darkened your path after your office Xmas party? I guess that was Capitalist anger and resentment, eh?

And conspiracy theories?

You really are a lightweight Cappy.

If you actually paid any attention to what I wrote - except when I'm responding to some lie or exaggeration or misrepresentation you've posted - you'd know that I'm the last guy around here who's into conspiracies. Ask Truman - he'll tell you.

The real world is more than enough to cope with without imagining things.

It always amuses me to read

It always amuses me to read about "our robust, booming economy"

These poor souls pretend to be "business friendly", but don't understand that the sale of capital is not an income, the GDP has no debit figures to show what the hell is going on, and the combination of the two fraudulent theories always leads to bankruptcy.

The USA is already bankrupt beyond hope and our righties are desperately trying to jump on the same bandwagon careening downhill, without brakes.

Ed Deak.

Chris H

Yes good guess...my sincere compliments.

BTW... he(JOHN CUMMINS) is STILL very outspoken...and was recently discussing the amalgamation of the two local ports Authorities that currently control our waterways.

There are two(i) Fraser River Ports Authority and(ii) Vancouver Port Authority ...and they are looking to creating ONE single Massive Ports authority, which will be another example of the GVRD behemoth.

He's warning that this is not a good idea...and become a bureaucratic monster, and will result in more centralized and far less local autonomy.

He is of the view that each Port authority serve distinct markets and that it would be in everyones best interests to keep the status -quo.

Chris H

Yes good guess...my sincere compliments.

BTW... he(JOHN CUMMINS) is STILL very outspoken...and was recently discussing the amalgamation of the two local ports Authorities that currently control our waterways.

There are two(i) Fraser River Ports Authority and(ii) Vancouver Port Authority ...and they are looking to creating ONE single Massive Ports authority, which will be another example of the GVRD behemoth.

He's warning that this is not a good idea...and become a bureaucratic monster, and will result in more centralized and far less local autonomy.

He is of the view that each Port authority serve distinct markets and that it would be in everyones best interests to keep the status -quo.

Some more terms

Don't say "privatization" say "corporatization"

Donm't say "think tank" say "stink tank"

Don't say "Free enterprise" say, "State socialim of the rich"

okay but it's good not

okay but it's good not smoking dope and being conservastives instead of lefties, right?

Just a thought

I would just like to point out that under this government's policies we now have people from other provinces sending us clothing to help our homeless people. I am so proud to know that the neocon governemt we have has created the image that we in B.C. can't take care of our own people. Thanks Gordo this must be one of your proudest moments to have achieved this level of pity from the rest of Canada! Mission accomplished guys. B.C. the best place in the world!!!!!

Let's avoid Theatre of Virtue

Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. Politics should be about good faith discussion of underlying issues, not slogan chanting, name calling, or simply pinning labels of virtue to one's own chest. I don't see that this proposal does anything to further civil conversation, which should be a process of bringing us together through understanding each other's views. "Framing" is just another way of circumventing dialogue and undermining democracy. George Orwell got it right in Animal Farm: How is one able to respond to "four legs good, two legs bad"???

Percy

Maybe you should let Bill Bennett know about that.

Would this meet your requirements?

From: Maarten Hart
Sent: 19 November 2006 19:52
To: Bennett.MLA, Bill
Cc: Kent Petovello
Subject: Big Game Allocations

Dear Bill:

I am writing to let you know that the proposed big game allocation process is an insult to the residents of British Columbia and insult to the rights of BC hunters. Giving Guide/Outfitters such a large piece of the pie and guaranteeing their rights is absurd. I know that your government bows to the almighty dollar and faces east three times each day (not to Mecca, but to Wall Street), but even given that bent, the fact is that the resident hunter provides 100 times the revenue that nonresidents do. Look to the south and see that guides take a distant second to residents in every state; as they should here. Please respond to the wishes of your constituency and let Minister Penner know that this is unacceptable.

Sincerely, Maarten Hart
Fernie Rod & Gun Club
President

***

From: Bennett, Bill SMIN:EX
Sent: 29 January 2007 20:55
To:

Cc:

;

;

;

;

Subject: Your email of November 19th

Mr. Hart,

I am in my hotel room in Vancouver tonight reviewing the wildlife allocation in preparation for a meeting I have with minister Penner and I came across your November 19th email. I have been reading through this stuff since 5 pm today and meanwhile downstairs in this hotel is the biggest mining conference in BC that I ought to be participating in. Fortunately, I am almost done with my review. Your email, mercifully, was at the very bottom of my pile of paper.
Let me be very direct with you, as you were with me.

* It is my understanding that you are an American, so I don't give a shit what your opinion is on Canada or Canadian residents.

* Our government does not "…bow to the almighty dollar and face east to Wall Street each day…", but we do recognize a fool when we come across one. How do you think you are representing the interests of your members when you insult the BC hunter's strongest advocate, yours truly. I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to sort out this allocation file. It is complex, something that you obviously have enormous difficulty with. You don't know who your friends are, which makes you dumb.

* Don't lecture me about "listening to the wishes of my constituents". As someone who has spent the past six years working my ass off for my constituents, I am not about to take that kind of bullshit from someone who, for all I know, is up here as an American spy who is actually interested in helping the US create a park in the Flathead.

I will continue to work for hunters and anglers in the East Kootenay as I always have and you will continue to be a self-inflated, pompous, American know-it-all.

Have a nice day.
Bill Bennett

Good for the goosed gander

Gee G'ster....

He (Bill Bennett) had many an "anti- American" diatribe...hence you and the TYEE Leftie posse' future Proxy vote support , right ? ,.. along with a nice tax deductible contribution, which is also in the mail .....right ???

==========================================

DEAR GLENNOCHIO:
(c/o Jim Pattison Ltd)

QUESTION : Hey Glen....What happened to the FAST FERRIES ....the one your wife swung the Champagne bottle at without safety gear on ?

REPLY: "*&%$#@ and " %$#@# - OFF "
&*%$# and %$#@* as well as
$#@ .

I guess i should keep

I guess i should keep smoking pot and being a leftie, then?

that bennet guy sounds like a blast, he shoulda stayed in office.

1984 - Orwell was right

Is not reframing, really 1984 'new-speak'; the ministry of war was called the ministry of peace, etc.

A think tank is in reality a policy committee; Chamber of commerce -> right-wing political group; board of trade -> board of free enterprise, etc.

Lefties smoke pot ???

Lefties smoke pot...???

What???

Man , we are getting into S-E-R-I-O-U-S libel and slander territory.

Next thing someone will say is they don't have RRSP's , don't eat meat , don't drive SUV's , are card -NDP ers', and think G West isn't a neo con.

Hey....Groovy, Man...
Yo...go hug yer nearest tree...or at least share the joint with it.

Capitalist Liar

Cappy you are a low down lying rat, I'm calling you out, ya piece of dog excrement.
Prove it or take a beating!

thanks I was looking for

thanks I was looking for guidance, but I guess this is not the best board for that...

seriously...no more dope, more conservative/liberal uptake - should I?

Nothing but the truth

I liked Mr Bennet's letter. For THAT he had to step down? I don't understand, was it for maligning the good ol US of A, or for being cheeky to a "taxpayer"?

But back to reframing, how about calling the Harper and Campbell retreads what they really are - REFORMers. They knew they couldn't get elected under their true colours, and calling them Reformers may clue people in to why and what they are so stealthily doing today.

Re: Bill Bennett

Answer is simple:

Honourable people resign.

However, No honour amongst Lefties....

Remember Colonel Schultz on " Hogan's Heroes " ?

"I Know Nottthiiiiing !!! "

Re Lefties, that's true, literally speaking , but when Leftie's hand is also caught in the Cookie jar, figuratively speaking, ..A Leftie " RESIGN " ???

LOL LOL LOL !!!

Me3

So, because his interlocutor once lived in the United States, Bennett is justified in calling him a spy? You must be joking.

Not very logical.

I think the problem stems from the fact that elected representatives frequently forget their job is to do the 'people's' business.

For a bunch of business types Campbell's 'directors' (remember who picks the deputies and the ministers in this ceo's government) often seem to forget that they aren't elected to feather their own nests and look after their friends' interests - they are meant to be PUBLIC SERVANTS and servants of all members of the public not just the ones they meet at mining confabs.

Perhaps Premier Campbell's memo about how much he loves his time in MAUI didn't get to the junior minister of mines. Telling the big boss about his screw up must have been pretty chastening, don't you think?

Bill Bennett

Haha!! Refreshing, I love the e-mail and I can't see why he would resign over it. I remember my wife sent an e-mail to Larry Campbell after Translink voted down RAV (the first time). She ripped into him a little and said she was ashamed to call him mayor! Though, technically we lived in North Vancouver at the time....

Anyway, you should have seen his 2AM reply! It was angry, direct and very, very impolite.....I loved it!! I am actually going to ask her if she still has it saved on her computer. All I remember is that he said, "I am ashamed to call you my citizen" - though I don't recall any swear words...

It was refreshing though. A politician who clearly cared and had a bunch of emotion...good on you Mr. Bennett!

yo cap, find that letter

yo cap, find that letter sounds great and yeah I'm with you on the Bennet email....

maestro.....don't you

maestro.....don't you realize that the more you use stupid cliches, like your constant repetition of "lefties", the more desperate personality you project and the less any thinking person will pay any attention to what you say?

This was one of the reasons people lost faith and interest in the communists, because the constant repetitions of their own stupid cliches. And the more they did it, the more ridiculous they became.

If you have nothing worthwhile to say, why don't you just fade out, instead of making a fool of yourself?

I worked over 40 years busting communist propaganda and am happy to see their twins, the true blue capitalists, falling into the same pattern of self destruction.

Subconsciously you people must know that you're fighting for a dead cause, heading into oblivion.

How long do you think the US can spew out imaginary money and get away with it? Except perhaps with Canadians. The US dollar is now only held up by speculators, trying to cover their losses.

This is just one of many similar analyses.
While their official debt is $8.6 tril. the real, overall figure is over $50. trillion

Ed Deak.
----------------------------------
http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/405/2/

The Great Dollar Crash of `07
Tuesday, 06 February 2007
By Mike Whitney

The massive equity bubbles which arose from artificially low interest
rates and the deliberate destruction of the dollar by reckless
increases in the money supply have shifted trillions of dollars from
working class Americans to the predatory aristocrats at the top of
the economic food chain. The gulf between rich and poor has grown so
wide that it now poses a direct threat to our increasingly fragile
democracy.

"Whatever future developments may prove to be, my best guess is that
the US will continue to maintain a façade of Constitutional
government and drift along until financial bankruptcy overtakes it."
Chalmers Johnson, "Empire V. Democracy: Why Nemesis is at our Door"

Cap:

I second MyBrainIsOnFire's motion !!! :

See if you can post Larry Campbell's e-mail

I seem to recall concerns of a bullying attitude at times exhibited by Larry to subordinates.

However, I often wonder if "reply" e-mails are written by those other than the intended recipient? Some parties must get 100's of them.

Speaking of RAV, it's rumoured that Larry was rewarded with a Senate seat for his work on stickhandling RAV.

Green

The picture we have here is a blending of Con blue and Lib red trying merge into green. I always thought of our $Business Friendly$ governments of the past as being a chamelion, changing colors in the tug-of-war of "First past the post." The frame is changing from colorfull Canadian to $Amarican$ green. There is not much hope for the the NDP orange getting into the mix.
Harpoon is busy finishing what "Bull"roney started. Getting us aboard the Thrasher.

You guys are so far out of it you're in orbit

What do you not understand about public service?

I don't care who wrote that kind of nonsense, Bill Bennett or Larry Campbell (though I'd have to say that if Larry had replied to your wife's provocation that since she lived in North Vancouver he'd politely ignore her would have been the correct answer) such uncivil behavior and lack of respect from persons vested with public trust is both stupid and irresponsible.

I'm not surprised to see the people who are cheering. Nice to keep all the Neanderthals together. How typical.

But pleasing to see you all keeping so rigorously to type. Thanks.

You make my job so much easier.

Trying a little 'newspeak' eh?

Dobbin would have us believe this:

I do not and never did during my adult life. If this, Canadians still believe in the principle that government is a force for good, is the case then Dobbin must point out the recent (at least past 6 months) poll that lies says this.

Otherwise Dobbin is only practising what he has preached, and trying some more 'framing' of his own.

Dobbin would now have us believe that it is just these incessant 'social programs' operated by very well paid and 'socially supported gold-plated and diamond encrusted union contracts' that are finally getting cut off at the knees (something that should have happened 35 years ago!) that are the reason for the growing gap between the rich and poor.

I say that it is precisely because these 'programs' do not encourage the 'poor' to get on with life on their own terms that is the reason for the gapping. The lack of financial education (something that the skool systim will never teach ~ since doing so would create a generation ready, willing and able to dismantle that systim) in our public schools and continued 'dumbing-down' of our entire society has left far too many primed to accept either side using these 'framing' arguments.

Start thinking independantly, then vote that way ~ the more of us whom do this the faster we will come to the conclusion that we need less of Ottawa than Ottawa needs of us.

Would you replace

Would you replace democratically elected governments with multinational corporations? Somebody has to govern!

In any case it is an easily proven fact that, on the long run, government services are far more cost effective. We can see this every day on our neglected, "low biddder" operated and more costly road maintenance, when we cry for the good old, government services days, or in our privatized old people's homes, with the helpless lying in their own mess, as to clean them would cut into profits.

And nobody's more "individualist" and "private enterpriser" than I am, with a long record to prove it.

An ecoomy should be patterned on the road system, where everybody, big, or small should be able to travel, with their safety, property and lives protected by impartially enforced laws. And not by the demands of trucking companies, or road racers.

The vast majority of accidents on the roads are caused by "free enterprisers", who ignore the laws. Like ICBC just showed, that 50% of the accidents are caused by 15% of the drivers.

Basically the same figures in economics, with the biggest destruction caused by a few, all in the name of "freedom".

Do you want to know how to steal somebody's business, without paying for it? Some of our biggest billionaires are doing it all the time and it happened to me.

I'll be happy to write it down the next time. Perfectly legal, like most of the present gimmicks to steal society blind.

Ed Deak.

Ed/Fiat Lux:

QUESTION: Have I ever called YOU, Ed, a "Leftie"...my personal recollection is I haven't,.... but please correct me if that is in error.

I'm not quite sure why you feel that at times when I mention the term " Leftie " you have to get a wee bit upset. I don't have a copyright on the term " Leftie " .....nor do I myself have a monopoly on the use of " Leftie"...as evidenced by others own TYEE comments.

Other than a few TYEE posters...and after themselves ....shall we say... beginning the ad -hominem sparring , I tend not to connect the (i) term to (ii) the specific person.

However, you are preaching to the converted about WWII, and the causes and effects of war, politics, et al...my extended family was one of the first DP's to land in BC....I am sure you know what "DP" means.

If the world monetary system collapses,tomorrow, next week, next year...etc... I haven't seen Einstein, Isaac Newton...Jim Pattison,Putin, Halle Berry , Greenpeace nor David Suzuki , or U2 et al correlate it with "the sun will not come up in the morning and the sun not set in the evening". There will of course be some pain, but like any " war " with guns or GIC's etc...we shall perservere and rebuild.

Your comment:

"If you have nothing worthwhile to say, why don't you just fade out, instead making a fool of yourself ".

......is a little UNbecoming of you Ed, given the many times I have ackowledged my respect for you personally and your contributions. I expect it more of the usual TYEE suspects who I do tend to tune out like a broken record.

Also who is "You people " ???... I haven't heard anyone use the term " you people" since Archie Bunker on " All in the Family ".

What "dead cause" are you claiming I am also "fighting for"...and that I/we am " heading into oblivion ". EVIDENCE SVP...?

So....What IS the CAUSE I am allegedly fighting for ? Sorry, I haven't enlisted, nor is there a conscription process, other than personal free choice .

The TYEE is rather a small "l" liberal use of free speech, is it not ??? ...whether one is " Leftie" ..." Rightie" ..."Center of the Roadie"..." Communistie " ...."Greenie" , " PINK-o ie " etc.

Like one of my late friends,

Like one of my late friends, who smoked himself do death lon ago, used to say "Call me anything, but don't call me late for dinner"

Whether you ever called me a leftie, or not, makes no difference, it is the constant repetition of this stupid phrase that ruins any rational debate. A person either makes sense, or contributes something, regardless of any ideology, that counts.

I will listen to a 5 year old with the same attention as I would to a professor and I know quite a few of both sides. My neck has been saved many times in fields where I was supposed to be an "expert", by somebody who asked a single question, I couldn't answer.

By the way, although I consider all ideologies, either left, or right, a waste of time, as they all can be turned into mass murder, I have been calling myself a "private enterpriser, social democrat" since my Cambridge days, over 50 years ago, where I discovered and got hooked on democracy. I believe in lifeboats on ships and parachutes in planes.

The only economy I now believe in is based on strict physical laws that apply equally everybody and can not sprout artificially created ruling classes.

I also know what DPs were, as I was one for 6 years after the war. Thanks to ideologies
both on the "right" and "left".

Ed Deak, honourary "leftie"

please educate us re: DP

please educate us re: DP

Ed:

That was good

.....at least we have that clarified for future reference.

PS Are the B - 52's still flying overhead ?

MyBrainIsOnFire

DP = Displaced Person/s...often war refugees, which my own family was after WWII .

thanks

appreciate it - some of my ancestors....Maternal Side fled Stalin in the 30's; Paternal Side, fled Hitler (family all killed) as a child in the 40's

We haven't seen any B 52s in

We haven't seen any B 52s in the past few days, the skies were also cloudy, and we can't really hear them unless we're outside, but there are days, when their contrails are criss crossing each other, just the North of us.

The other day we saw one flying in a diagonal direction, which was quite unusual. The North-South flights are using Williams Lake for correction, always making a slight curve over town.

As I mentined before, what they're practiciang is pinpoint navigation, which was my field in car rallies, on earth, so I can interpret their actions.

Ed Deak.

Ed;

Re: Planes overhead

As long as the side of the plane doesn't spell out

" E-N-O-L-A G-A-Y "

I wouldn't worry about it.

(If it does...duck ! )

What's the local lottery date for the Ice Break up...?

I know Global Warming screws up ice fishing...but sometimes the best fishing is right after ice break up.

Okay, Maestro, I admit it, that was funny.

I knew you were going to say that about global warming and ice fishing, Maestro, but it was still funny.

Enola Gay was good, too. (But kinda psychopathic)

Sorry, but I don't know

Sorry, but I don't know about the ice, especially because I don't fish, or eat fish. I hate the smell of the things and my wife's highly allergic to them.

I have survived many terror bombings in WW2, as the Allied air raids were nothing more, and my wife's family was bombed out, losing their possessions. So we hate bombers with passion, and cuirse every one we see, as they have nothing to do with "defence". Those damn cowards, sitting in their planes are practicing to kill thousands, or even millions if they use nukes.

Before Enola Gay took off on its war crime mission, Chaplain Downey read the following prayer:

"Almighty Father, Who wilt hear the prayer of them that love Thee, we pray Thee to be with those who brave the heights of Thy heaven and who carry the battle to our enemies. Guard and protect them, we pray Thee, as they fly their appointed rounds. May they, as well as we, know Thy strength
and power, and armed with Thy might may they bring this war to a rapid end. We pray Thee that the end of the war may come soon, and that once more we we may know peace on earth. May the men who fly this night be kept safe in Thy care, and may they be returned safely to us. We shall go forward trusting Thee, knowing that we are in Thy care now and forever. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen"

I'm sure God smiled and blessed them to kill some 100,000 unarmed civilians in an undefended town, with one single bomb.

Just as our preachers sent us to kill in the name of "Freedom, Christianity and Western Civilization under the Leader with the Cross on his chest" Adolf Schicklgruber.

The sob wasn't even my leader, but our satellite government, like this Harpo gang is doing now, sold us into his criminal service.

So much for ideologies of all kinds.

Ed Deak.

Maestro

"Re Lefties, that's true, literally speaking , but when Leftie's hand is also caught in the Cookie jar, figuratively speaking, ..A Leftie " RESIGN " ???"

True, Lefties like Harcourt would never resign over any hint of wrong doing ... oh wait!

The true joke is that email is worse, apparently, than drunk driving. Honorable people would resign in either case.

I never considered Harcourt

I never considered Harcourt a good premier, although about 100 x better then the present one, but what wrong has he done to have resigned for?

He screwed up by not going in a big way after the Nanaimo screwballers, but he, himself had nothig to do with it. His dithering was foolishness, but no crime.

At least he didn't give huge chunks of BC away to the multinational mafia for future directorships, or signed any secret treaties, like this coming TILMA crime wave.

Ed Deak.

'I never considered Harcourt

'I never considered Harcourt a good premier, although about 100 x better then the present one' thanks for the laugh ed.

Happy to oblige. How about

Happy to oblige. How about 110x for a better laugh?

Too bad we can't send pictures on this blog, or I'd draw you some funny faces.

I'm sure Gordie was laughing too, when he signed the TILMA treaty, selling off BC, happily counting the string of directorships as his reward.

Of course, he'll never beat Brian in his string for the FTA and NAFTA, or Harpo for the now negotiated NAU, selling the whole of Canada, but what the hell, a million, or two either way? Lots of Hawaii and booze still ensured.

Ed Deak.

Chris H

For point of reference:

In the good old days...which in some ways weren't really that long ago...I seem to recall an honourable politician of any political stripe would almost immediately step down, at least from a Cabinet post, if a "negative event" simply happened " under their watch"....even if something happened via a subordinates' action and no other connection to the politician otherwise.

An investigation would ensue, and if the investiagtion concluded the politician was not at fault... at the discretion of Gov't the politician would be re-instated.

Seems like Bill Bennett is part of this " old school"...

I've seen parties deemed responsible for, or guilty of, far worse sins than his e-mail, yet never quit, and often move higher up the ranks.

Clarification

Earlier in this thread, this was reported:

Alcibiades
1 day ago

Another blatant lie Capitalism.

Here are the figures for equalization grants to British Columbia from the Federal Government:

Transfers to BC from the Federal Government: (all figures in millions)
2003/04 Equalization 320
2004/05 682
2005/06 590
2006/07 459

In 2006-07, support through major transfers to British Columbia will be approximately $6.8 billion (about $1,588 per person).[Including the health and social transfer which is above and beyond equalization]

Yes, the figures for BC are correct. They include all transfers, most all of which are for Health Care. All provinces receive them since they are, essentially, federal taxes being returned. Even Albert receives these transfers, in 06-07 $5.140 billion and Ontario gets $19.362.

The equalization figure for BC is again correct $459 million but Capitalism is correct in writing that BC is expecting this to drop to zero in 08-09. This would be as it is in Ontario and Alberta which receive nothing, and haven't for a long time.

Total equalization transfers, different from general transfers, total $11.535 billion in 07-08.

It's all here:
http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/fedprov-e.html

No need for nasty words between the two posters, they are both right.

Where do you think I got the information

Now go back and look at what Capitalism actually wrote and what I responded - and the order in which they were written.

Cappy was not right. He started out with a lie and simply refused to admit it.

I know you can handle the research to go back and check Realisticman.

New-Newspeak.

Cute Murray but I see if differently.

Never say "Medicare crisis." Say the "corporate threat to Medicare."

No, say "Socialist Medical Disaster".

Never say "private care." Instead say "for-profit care."

No, say "Care by Choice".

Never say "defence spending." Say "war spending."

No, say "Canadian Peacemaking and Peacekeeping Spending".

Don't say "child care." Instead say "early childhood learning."

No, say "Child Raising Assistance".

Never refer to the Clean Air Act. Call it what it is, the Dirty Oil Act.

No, say "the Healthy Planet Act".

Never say Tories. Say "the Harper Conservatives."

No, say "the New Progressives"

Never say "decentralization." Instead, say "the erosion of universal social programs."

No, say "regional and local programmes-control".

Need a ref.

Yes, Alci you were right, BC is getting $459 million in 06-07 and he was wrong to suggest that BC is receiving no equalization payments in this fiscal year but he was right in suggesting that none are expected in the coming year.

The timing is everything

If you looked at the posts, you'll actually see that I phrased the answer properly for him. Gratis.

In fact, this was a nothing column. Stuff and nonsense.

RM..... I like "care by

RM..... I like "care by choice"

You pay, or drop dead. As they do by the thousands in the USA.

Ed Deak.

Come to think of it, this

Come to think of it, this brings back some pleasant memories.

In 1956, I was working in a custom furniture shop on Granville, in Vancouver, where the Pacific Press building later was built.

On a sunny spring day, 3 of us went for a walk during lunchtime, up to Broadway, when we saw a commotion in front of a baby carriage store. A guy was hit by a car as he jaywalked across Broadway and people pulled him to the sidewalk, where he lied on his back, half conscious.

We could hear the siren of the ambulance, that used to be a private company in those day, with ugly, Cadillac station wagons.

The 2 attendants came out and one of them asked the victim: "You got 35 bucks?" He was half conscious and didn't answer. So the attendant started slapping his face to wake him up:"Hey buddy! You got 35 bucks?", repeatedly....

Still no answer, so the attendant reached into the victim's inner pocket, pulled out his vallet and luckily, found the $35. took it out, put the vallet back and then they loaded him on the stretcher. This was witnessed by at least 15 or so people standing around with disgust on their faces.

This was also "care by choice" in the best Milton Friedman "Free to Choose" fashion.

It will stay etched in my head to the last day and I will fight any sob who wants to bring it back.

The same for privatized vehicle insurance.
The biggest damn crooks under the sun.

Ed Deak.

WOW!

The file photo at the head of this article looks an awful lot like Data from Star Trek......

Explains quite a lot, it does!

Good Health, man!

As you may know Ed, there are over 240 countries on this planet and three have a health-care system that is, supposedly, completely public-only. Canada is one of them. Canada has many differences from the USA and there is no reason why we should copy their medical system. How about the 'care by choice' virtually instant and choice system in France? No good?

The retention of Canada's system as it is, is unsustainable. Surely we all know that? Scare tactics, union posturing and ideology cannot last. We all know this. Technology is escalating costs at roughly 5% per year. The population is ageing. This country has central government, provincial, regional and individual hospital bureaucracies. This country also looses doctors and nurses to places where they hope to better their careers. It will have to change no matter what.

Not a pretty picture!

I guess the photo up top is part of the strategy. "Always show your opponent looking really nasty". SFX OK too. Can we see a snap of Steffy Dion all green?

Those ambulance crews...

Reminds me of another story about Vancouver in the good 'ole days Ed.

When those ambulance crews weren't picking up injured folks at $35 a pop - cash on the barrel head - they also 'moonlighted' as meat wagons to pick up corpses from accident scenes, or homes, or wherever the deceased happened to be. There were a bunch of private companies involved and they'd race to get to an accident scene if there were several corpses lying around. In rural Ontario they had a similar arrangement and for some reason most of the ambulance operators were also the town undertaker – and furniture salesman too. Guess they made or at least sold the caskets – would you call that vertical integration?

I guess they were paid by the morgue on a piecework basis.

Anyway, a friend of mine - both of us were students at the time - had a night job with one of these firms and he was on call on New Years Eve but decided to go to a Party anyway in the hearse/ambulance.

About midnight, and he was pretty well sauced by the time, he got a call to attend at a fatal accident near the west side of the Burrard Bridge. He got there, loaded up the corpse into the back of the Caddy and headed out at top speed for the morgue. He forgot to latch the rear hatch though and the corpse slid out and landed on the pavement.

Therefore, he turned around, lifted the poor bugger up and started all over again.

Good old days indeed. Anyone who says that professional, trained, competent and well paid public servants aren't a wonderful thing and a big improvement doesn't know what they're talking about.

I wouldn't tell the story but my friend died about five years ago and no one could possibly be hurt by it now.

On the news today

On the news today, while showing the students protesting about high tuition fees, it was pointed out,Quebec has frozen tuition rates since the 90s,this is directly due to Quebec being subsidized by Alberta, Ontario, and BC by way of equalization grants.

RM.....My American friends

RM.....My American friends are paying anywhere from $300, to 1,000/month for their coverage.

As OAPs here in BC, we pay nothing.

Also, our American friends are telling us horror stories of their friends and relations, some, even children, dying without medical care they couldn't afford.

When Peter Gzowsky was still on CBC radio, he interviewed a Canadian doctor, who was taking some years long, advanced kidney training in Baltimore. He was telling how he had to fight with private insurers to send an ambulance to pick up, or deliver somebody. The huge paperwork involved with every decision they had to make that cost a few bucks.

One day a young woman's $1. million coverage ran out while she was on some kidney machine. Her family went bankrupt from the costs. The insurance co. phoned the hospital and told them to pull the plug on her. They had to have an emergency staff meeting, trying to work out some funding to keep her alive.

We have very wealthy, American neighbours, still with large holdings in the States, who can't live there anymore because of such incidents and policies.

We had the opportunity to go to the States in 1951, with all the papers ready, but have decided, in the last minute, not to and have been blessing our lucky stars ever since.

Instead of givig more taxcuts to the multinational carpetbagger mafia, so they can take more out of the country, our goverments should spend the money on their own people. In, by World Bank figures, with Australia, the richest countries on Earth. The USA is nowhere compared to our wealth.

Look it up !

Ed Deak.

my canadian friends

I've been working in the states for ten years and have built a small fortune. I left BC in the 90's when the NDP turned the province into the clown of north america. I pay no health care premiums -the companies I work for pay them.

Peter Gzowsky -the nescafe-sipping, beret-wearing shmooze-puppet of the cbc. Oh, how I don't miss the state-sponsored, taxpayer supported cbc.

Your comments are biased, of course. You chose to stay in canada, and therefore have no personal experience of living in the states.

By the way, I am Acadian Driftwood.

Ted Tweak.

Care by Choice

I choose that we take care of everybody who is in need of medical care. I choose that we do it as a people. It is perfectly sustainable if that is what we choose to do. It is all a matter of priorities.

After all, spending the money on doctors, nurses, other staff, plant and equipment can (by and large) stay in BC. If health care is the growth industry for the future, we should become world leaders in manufacturing hospital beds, surgical equipment, etc. etc. If we do this right, we can bring our per unit costs down on many of the supplies and much of the equipment while supplying the rest of the world with quality products. If the government wants to put seed money out, they can offer tax cut breaks to those who wish to begin manufacturing hospital equipment, or medications in our province. The meds and equipment should, therefore, be cheaper for BC as the tax money that comes from the workers and management will return to BC coffers. Shipping costs should also be cheaper. In this way, BC can help private enterprise gain a stake in health care without privatizing what we have and going into partnerships in service delivery.

I'm so pleased

It's nice to know that Ted Tweak and acadian driftwood are one and the same - It's always nice when two of you guys turn into just one. It's so much easier to ignore you this way
and even nicer to know you've left Canada.

What consoles me is the constant movement of wonderful people like Ed's neighbours who are coming up here to build a fairer and more equitable society north of the 49th parallel.

Unlike 'former' junior mines minister Bennett, I'm really glad to have them.

Bye' TT

Drugs in BC

SharingIsGood; nothing wrong with your idea but if you want pharmaceutical companies in BC you'll have to lure them, nearly half of the Canadian biopharmaceutical industry is based in Quebec, and the bulk of basic and clinical research in Canada is conducted in Montreal. Québec gives great deals to companies for attracting talent in this industry, and others.

As the Qu´bec Government says,"

Life Sciences
Financial Solutions and Taxation
Financial Solutions

Investissement Québec can assist you with your expansion plans, providing consulting services as well as financing assistance. In addition to being an economic development agency, we are also a financial institution. We have several financial solutions for you.

Biotechnology Development Centres (CDBs)

Companies conducting operations involving biotechnology innovation and based in a designated CDB (Laval, Sherbrooke, Saint-Hyacinthe or Lévis) may be eligible for a refundable tax credit on:

* 30% of wages paid to an eligible employee;
* 30% of the cost of acquiring or renting eligible goods (specialized material);
* 30% of eligible rental fees for specialized facilities.

SMB Financial

We can provide a loan guarantee, i.e. a guarantee applicable to a loan, line of credit or letter of credit granted by a financial institution. We also offer loans. One component of our SMB Financial program is likely to interest you: Interim financing of tax credits.

Strategic Support for Investment Program

If your company is planning an investment or seeking to develop a new product, we can provide various types of loans, a loan guarantee or a non-repayable contribution.

The Strategic Support for Investment Program (PASI) favours investments that target diversification or consolidation of a particular sector, and product development that is distinctive because of its innovative nature and commercial potential.

Feasibility Study of an Investment Project

Financial contribution to companies that want to carry out an investment project in Quebec. The program is administered by the Quebec government's Ministry for Economic Development, Innovation and Exports and can cover up to 40% of the fees of experts to carry out feasibility studies to a maximum grant of CDN$50,000. Eligible activity sectors are manufacturing, recycling, business services, industrial research and development, and scientific services.

Emploi-Québec Employment Assistance Program

Contribution to the financing of economic projects meeting specific criteria. Financial assistance provided by Emploi-Québec, jointly with administrations in Quebec's regions, can go to sharing of the cost of training and recruitment of the labour necessary for project start-ups."

A critical mass is established there. Research and Development is possible through the BC universities but manufacturing is in the east, nearer the big market.

Manufacturing supplies and equipment is possible as long as subsidies are offered or taxes are competitive. Corporate, property and personal taxes have to make sence for a business plan to succeed.

While we are on the topic....

G W*st = Alci*bides = ........

so ???

2 for the 1/2 wit price of one ...such a deal!!!

OY!!!

bye bye GW*STALCI*BIDES unseparated at birth.

Please give generously for PISB
(Pseudo Intellectual Suicide Bomber-itis)

Shall we give them a holiday?

One point where the left and the conservatives converge is their similar reluctance to give tax breaks to business. Liberals do this though, even so-called 'progressives' like the Parti Quebecois did. Today.

Life Sciences
Financial Solutions and Taxation - Tax Holiday for Foreign Researchers

Foreign researchers employed by a company in Canada that does R&D in Quebec benefit from a provincial tax holiday on their salary for five consecutive years. It is a declining tax holiday computed as follows: 100% of employment income the first two years, 75% the third year, 50% the fourth year and 25% the fifth year. This measure also applies to other foreign experts; e.g., managers working in innovative fields.

No.

Of course it's a difficult problem in a nation with 10 provinces competing with each other for industrial development - which is why I tend to lean more and more toward a different system of governance where provincial governments either lose a lot of their power - or disappear altogether.

Added to that the current under funding of cities - where most of the social costs end up being incurred - and we have real problems.

I don't think Harper's fiscal imbalance formula is going to satisfy anyone but Quebec and his current approach certainly puts the lie to everything he's promised up to this point.

There are lots of positive cost benefit reasons for high-tech and chemical industry to locate in Canada as long as we keep and fix our single-payer health plan. The auto situation proves that conclusively - and the current negotiations with Boeing over the heavy-lift aircraft deal also illustrates that we can find other ways (than tax gimmees) to attract industry. A perfect example of what not to do is the Campbell government’s decision to go offshore for ferries.

There is a lot of basic research done at western Canadian Universities and medical research could be stimulated much more effectively by a change in the way we finance and train our doctors and medical professionals too.

Lots of interesting ideas - but the first point is that the corporate giveaways have to stop. Now.

Won't be easy and I don't think Harper has the jam for it anyway - he likes being PM too much.

Sadly, I think he'll win the election and it will be very bad for the people in this country who always need some help and fairness and never seem to get it.

Not that the Liberals would be any better. In the end, the only real hope is electoral reform and a more involved and committed populace. Otherwise, the idiots continue to rule for their own good and the profit of their friends.

As Frank says, we're screwed.

the first point is that the corporate giveaways have to stop. N

Yea, well, I'll agree on that if everybody else does. They won't though unless equalization is cut off and it's Darwinian, as it should be. One senses that Stephen Harper doesn't like it but he understands that to have the votes to run the country he needs Quebec and that means maintaining equalization and allowing the funds to go to corporate subsidies there. If the Liberals get back in they will continue with it too, since it was they that boosted it in spades.

I see no other way than letting Quebec go. It would be bumpy to say the least since the dollar will take a big hit and negociatiations would be painful and might necessitate independant arbitration. Canada would probably conceed much to maintain a land-link to the Maritimes and Newfoundland, since they would be in panic. Ultimately the benefits would be substantial with a true Canadian cultural identity eventually emerging.

A sad loss? Not really. Norway and Sweden get along OK. As does the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and that was quick! Ontario is terrified and it probably won't happen for a few more cycles. Perhaps it wiill be driven by Alberta.

Feedback

What a concise, lucid, instructive article. Bravo!!

Maestro

"I've seen parties deemed responsible for, or guilty of, far worse sins than his e-mail, yet never quit, and often move higher up the ranks."

True. But it is not a left versus right issue as you tried to make it. The very worst possible example in recent years has to be Gordon Campbell. That he didn't step down after getting arrested was a disgrace to all politicians. He, along with the political commentators in the media that excused his actions, sent a very strong message: drinking and driving is no big deal.

Bennett had to step down because of the message it would send to every public servant in BC. I salute him for realizing that and stepping down. It was the honorable thing to do. Perhaps politicians need a "code of ethics" like other professions have. Those suggesting that there was nothing wrong with his email might need one as well.

I'm not a bit surprised that

I'm not a bit surprised that some people are very happy in the States.

I've known a lot, who were very happy under aristocratic/Church fascism as some are willing to blow themselves up for Allah.

My family were arch-conservative royalists, who were dreaming of the return of the Hapsburgs, "When we'll send the peasants back to the farms and pay workers what we feel like throwing at them"

I was listening to people in Austria for 3 years after the war, bemoaning how happy they were under the nazis and now millions who were also very content under the communists, are still dreaming of the reincarnation of Stalin.

I wonder how happy they'll be in the States when the world figures it out that the US Dollar is worthless and the speculators have collected enough gold and Euros to let it drop, and when the last factory moves to China.

Of course, our puppet Harpo may just jump in to help, by selling Canada to keep corporate fascism alive for one more day.

Ed Deak.

Cap to Gavin

Fair comments Gavin and let's try and refrain from the insults.

I agree that Canada has two options (A) we can isolate ourselves, much like Sweden - a country with no growth, and attempt to become a socialist country. (B) We can join the Capitalist Gravy Train and enjoy international prosperity!!

I don't think we can have it both ways. We can't be an international force, yet maintain the socialistic society you covet. The competetive forces within our borders are very strong and the forces beyond our borders are even stronger, and will continue to grow in strength.

Canada is a vibrant place to live because we've embraced internationalism. To compete in this new world, we need to embrace capitalism...

Chris H

In some ways it is not a right versus left issue, but in some other ways it is.

I seem to recall that much of this transition for old school honour to moral relativism occurred when the NDP were in. Harcourt perhaps "honourably" took the first spear...maybe even welcomed the excuse to yell Geronimo....and if you include Dan Miller, the NDP had 4 Premiers in 8-9 years till their defeat by Campbell.

When Vander Zalm got into legal trouble, he paid his own way...approx. $500,000.

When Glennochio was investigated, my understanding was that legislation had been passed that if an elected party was brought before the courts, and it was deemed the public's business, the public shall incurr the legal costs, much like an Employer Employee liability relationship...ie the employer is responsible for the actions of the employee.

The irony , of course,and nouveau conveniently, is that
the Gov't at this point = WE the people, who are now deemed the Employer, and the Elected officials are now deemed the Employees. ( Most of the rest of the time the elected officials are effectively our bosses ).

Of course, it morphs even further into solicitor - client privelege...we pay for the Lawyer, but the bill we, the Public , receive is deemed none of our business.

I' m not agreeing with what Campbell did, but his NDP political peer predecessors apparently pioneered the slippery slope. I'm not sure there will be much going back, but my past posts are meant to reminisce a wee bit when Bill Bennett types and their old school honourable actions arise from time - to - time. Maybe a new retro benchmark will put the same onus by example on his current political peers of all stripes.

When did the last NDPer ever resign?

Maybe it is a left versus right issue.

Both Harcourt and Clark have

Both Harcourt and Clark have resigned, to the best of my recollection.

That was when the NDP convention was taken over by the "mobile voting force", we also have here in the Cariboo, who turn up at every Party's nomination conventions.

Which is not a left and right, but power politics issue.

Going back to the PC nominating convention in Williams Lake in 1984. A prominent member, president of both of local the provincial Socreds and PCs, personal friend of Mulroney, was running for the nomination and by his own admission, spent $30,000., a lot of money in those days

About 3 weeks before the convention, I was talking to another prominent PC member and said "Looks like X has the convention sewn up?"

He started laughing: "Like hell he does! Brian doesn't want him and it is arranged to have Y elected".

He never said how and why, but we happened to be in town that day, and were passing the hotel where the convention was just breaking up.....and it was immediately obvious how it was done.

For one thing, all the mills closed for that day and "gave an opportunity for the workers to go and vote"

Some left and right issue.......

Ed Deak.

Cappy....To the best of my

Cappy....To the best of my recollection, Sweden is in the EU, but Norway, with the highest living standards in Europe, voted against it.

By the way, what is "growth", when living standards and poverty are growing in leaps and bounds. The growth of Jimmy's 4,500 million bucks?

If we still had the same wage/price proportions as we had 40 years ago, the average Canadian wage should be about $50./hr.

We could feed our family of 5 for $25/wk.

Now 2 can hardly make it on $200/wk.

Have wages also increased 8 to 10 times?

Capitalism is a dead duck, hanging by the neck on the worthless US Dollar and can fall at any time.

Ed Deak.

saw glennocchio on the news

saw glennocchio on the news last night. he was appearing at a function with his capitalist buddy jimmy. what a joke! this is a guy that was going to tax basically everything that moved, on advice from his #1 socialist consultant, maureen maloney. i wonder if he feels embarrassed 100% of the time.

I doubt it, El

But I think you must - feel embarrassed 100% of the time I mean!

And here all along I thought it was the left that was supposed to be into class warfare.

Live and learn.

Keep skating down the right wing dude. You're about as effective as the Canucks were last night!

Cappy

Sweden is isolated? Norway and Denmark are isolated?

Have you checked their status on the latest UN development figures? Their levels of GDP?

Their measures of happiness? Compared to ours.

Or the quality of their environment and the sustainability of their forest industry?

That's the kind of isolation the 20 - 30 % of Canadian families who live in poverty would like Cappy.

Canada is the country that's isolated. Were caught in a sewer of garbage with the Americans. I wonder if you've heard Ben Bernanke's latest statement about social inequality.

Here's just one quote from a recent speech:

I don't think George Bush got the message and neither did you.

Now I know Bernanke doesn't really care and that nothing is going to stop America's slide into bankruptcy and/or total war, but it is kind of interesting that the situation has gotten so bad even he can't continue to pretend it doesn't exist.

another patronizing column from Dobbin...

Gee Murray how did we all ever manage to hold a conversation without instructions from you?

First off- your title uses the word "should".... this word tends to make people defensive and not want to listen.

Secondly-we are then instructed on the six "nevers"....are we back in "child care"..oh i'm corrected, i mean "early childhood learning"?

Unfortunately, again, Dobbin patronizes his readers and yes Murray, I and others are serious about "winning" discussions and can do this without rudimentary "framing' instructions from you.

Why should Clark feel

Why should Clark feel embarrassed? The guy has to make a living and he must be a good administrator, or Jimmy would have fired him ages ago.

I was building expensive furniture for some of the sleaziest corporate crooks, billing it to their companies as "office furniture" and even paid kickbacks to some. I looked them as the scum of the Earth, but what choice did I have with a half dozen guys to pay on Fridays ?

What I've seen in my 22 years, catering for them is one of the reasons why I hate capitalists with a passion. The same for nazis and communists

I could have made a fortune painting their portraits, but that's where I drew the line.

Making furniture is one thing, but glorifying them with pictures that last for hundreds of years, was a bit to much for my stomach, so I stayed a cabinetmaker and poor, without regrets.

Now I paint beautiful girls and give them the pictures. The model for my last show got 13 expensive paintings, marked NFS in the show, as I knew she and her husband would be happy with them. We covered our costs with the landscapes and my wife's florals, and that was Ok with us

Ed Deak.

Correction.... I was talking

Correction.... I was talking about the 1988 elections, not '84

Now, how about some praise of the "mobile electors", who promote "growth" ?

Ed Deak.

Maestro

So, your definition of doing the honourable thing is incurring all the financial costs? What a joke. While Glen Clark's legal defense was paid for, he was found not guilty. He should have been ruined financially because of his supposed friend? He did have to pay thousands of dollars to cover the costs of the conflict of interest charge - and that was appropriate. Having politicians being somewhat protected by attacks through the courts is reasonable. When they are guilty, the pay.

In my memory, there is not one elected premier that has not resigned or been disgraced in some way. Former Bill Bennett was convicted of inside trading, Harcourt steps down because of Bingogate, VanderZalm has to step down because of conflict of interest charges, Clark steps down because of a criminal investigation, Campbell is convicted of a crime. When have we had an elected premier that is isn't tainted in some way? Where are the honourable people? If honour is all about who pays for their defence then I guess only the rich can be honourable.

Nothing?

Gee, Ed. I guess that means that you pay no taxes.......

I'd sooner pay taxes to

I'd sooner pay taxes to peyfor our services, than the daily increasing, obscene profits to the multinational crooks controlling our economy, buying our governments.

In any case, as OAPs, we don't make enough to pay income taxes, except subsidizing our cattle from our pensions, so the feedlots can get them for nothing and then charge high prices to the public.

Last year we sold, at the auction sales, 2 perfectly healthy, organically grown, pregnant cows, 4 and 5 years old, for $295. each. Be happy to show the slips. Each of those cows had at least $1,500 worth of meat in her. Our calves did a bit better, but we lost about $100. per head, paid for from our pensions.

This is "free market" enterprise, while the crooks are importing beef and lamb from Australia and New Zealand to kill our farmers and ranchers, so they can steal their lands.

We do it as a matter of conscience, by growing food. Something people who have never experienced long term starvation can never understand while preaching criminal ideologies and controlling the ecoonomies, to force the same on millions, in the name of "globalized market competition", .

Ed Deak,

Addendum.... Very few people

Addendum.... Very few people realize, or understand the figures, that food and especially meat, prices the public pays, could be cut in half, while at the same time paying decent prices to the producers and plant workers, but the conspiracy of the stock markets will never permit it.

It wouldn't be "business friendly", "free market", and, horrors, cut into the profits of the middlemen, like our dear, Bible thumping BC variety.

This is why now Harper wants to kill the Wheat Board, so that Cargill and Tyson, et al, can play hell with farm incomes and raise their stock values.

Of course, the good, sucker Praerie wheat farmers may just go for it, being good Reform/Conservatives, yearning for "free markets", so they can be picked off one by one, as the ranchers of BC are now.

We're very small, but for the last 4 years, or so, have been paying $227/month from our OAPs for the loans we had to take out during the corporate, agribiz made, BSE hysteria, and not finished paying yet.

The US border was closed, and our cattle worthless, but at the same time their multinationals were still importing cattle from the States, where there were thousands of unreported BSE cases, but our government kept nice and quiet, not to disturb our "great friends and largest trading partners"

But then, this is wealth creating capitalism, so who can complain?

Ed Deak.

No taxes?

ED;
About 25% of all taxes collected in this country go towards the Health Care system. Not sure how you can break out specific ones for specific programs.......Funny how all multinationals are crooks and all governments are OK.......

All governments may be OK in

All governments may be OK in your ideology warped imagination, but not in real life.

We now have some of the biggest crooks in government offices right across the country, conspiring to sell us off to their multinational patrons for directorships.

What is TILMA by the Campbell gang, if not a secretly comnspired criminal action?

As far the multinationals are concerned, some of them have mile long conviction records right across the world, but governments are opening their doors for them to commit more crimes.

When did Union Carbide pay any compensation to their Bhopal victims?

When did Exxon pay a penny of the $1.5 billion fine for the Exxon Valdez disaster?

Why are individuals not permitted into Canada over small, long gone convictions, but Wal-Mart welcomed with open arms?

Why is one of the first clauses of so called "free trade agreements" specifying that corporations entering the country must get "national treatment", which means instant citizenship, permitting them to buy politicians, yet can not be kicked out for any criminal action without heavy penalties paid to them, as under NAFTA rules?

How about thinking before you spout your propaganda? You're not talking to the brainwashed faithful.

Ed Deak.

we all gotta' eat the capitalist sandwich...

Firstly, glennochio (note the lack of capital G) should be embarrassed 100% of the time. He spent his premiership spewing anti-americanism and corporate fat-cats. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if he dines on escargot and chocolate mousse every night. shameless opportunism at its finest! Who would you rather have - a liar like glennochio or Campbell, who at least gives it to you straight.

I doubt I am much different than you, Fiat Lux. I hate capitalism. But what do you propose I do? Should I park my car on the shoulder of I-5, get out and start waving at traffic, yelling for everybody to stop, let's start over and begin building a more just society? No vehicles would stop. No one would care.

Canada, like everyone else, is stuck with this new reality. We're slaves to international financial markets. As far as I can see, there is no way out. Everyone has to make an adjustment. The Romanian welder who used to be a shop steward with a pension under the old communist way is now 'european'.

As I said, I doubt anybody loves these changes, but they must be made until someone comes up with another way.

Ted Tweak.

Simple question

Sheesh Ed. I just pointed out that you claimed you pay nothing for your Health Care, therefore, you must not pay any taxes. In your follow up comment you inferred that you prefer government management of your money over multinationals. As for who’s brainwashed and who spouts propaganda – do they have mirrors where you are?

OK rightnut, show me one

OK rightnut, show me one sentence of propaganda in what what I've written.

Every word can be proven.

I don't suport any ideology, only human rights and ecological protection. All in danger by "wealth creation", otherwise known as daylight robbery.

Prove that daily growing supermarket prices are not fraudulent and could not be cut, just for one.

E.g have you watched the prices of condensed milk and milk powder, how much they went up in the last year? Do you have a logical explanation, apart from blaming transport costs, which are a pittance when spread over the truckloads.

How about meat and sugar ? Have the producers received a single percentage more?

Ed Deak.

Well Ted, Ghandi had the

Well Ted, Ghandi had the answer to your questions and he won.

Unfortunately, his successors went deeper into self imposed slavery by the financial markets, than under colonial days.

A jailer is a jailer no matter who, and native jailers are the worst. Just look how they treat their own ethnic peoples right here.

I've survived more sure death situations than I can remember, even sentencd to death once, hit by up to 20 rifle bullets, without a scratch, but I almost lost my right leg to lice bites.

Think about it.

Ed Deak.

Quote:Campbell, who at least

like when?

Propaganda?

Well Ed, you infer that every multinational is a corrupt gang of thieves, that all governments are fraudsters engaged in criminal actions and that people apparently involved in legitimate business activities are crooks and thieves.

Yep, I think that just about covers it………..

Right=Wrong

The discussions on this blog are very repetitive and seem to go nowhere. I hate these G West idiots and people like capitalism spewing nothing but garbage. They are ignorant to the extreme. I'm sorry that my tolerance doesn't extend to pure falsifications and lies. Ask the people in Guetemala what they think about Ronald Regan. I guess genocide is OK as long as some investor keeps making money. I suppose it has nothing to do with the climate in Guetemala that makes it such a great place to grow fruit, it's international investors.

By the way, the US is bankrupt and the only thing keeping their economy afloat is continuing Chinese and Saudi co-operation in continuing to hold on to vast amounts of American debt. If they stop doing that you'll all be scrambling to sell your US dollars for Mexican pesos. Now the right-wing lunatics want to hitch our dollar, backed by actual natural resources, to the American dollar? No thank you. Capitalism is unsustainable and will come crashing down as it did in 1929 and the theories of capitalism do not reflect economic reality. Capitalism is the natural evolution from feudalism, where power was transferred from land-holding classes to those who controlled capital and could use it to exploit labour. America is dependant on international co-operation to maintain its ever increasing deficits and military power to secure (rob) the resources that it needs. Why are you right-wing idiots complaining about NDP deficits? Your heros Regan, Bush and Thatcher all posted record deficits for their governments while giving away state assets to their well-connected associates. I guess Glen Murray's mistake was not declaring a genocidal war on natives which would have provided lucrative defence contracts. Now there's something an investor can sink his teeth into!

In short, propaganda is the

In short, propaganda is the rape of minds, now engaged in full force by the neocon ideology, with the captive control of the universities, the media to divert attention from important issues, like the secretly negotiated treaties for the sale of Canada, in our case.

Read up on the SPP, super NAFTA, GATS, FTAA, Amero, NAU, the NAFTA superhighway with its Canadian connections, etc. etc.
All big business conspiracies to defraud and enslave people.

Now show me where is any of these issues covered by the media?

There's nothing more I hate than propaganda. I've worked as an analyzer and buster of communist propaganda for many years, in 3 languages, and the day when I engage in any form of propaganda, I hope to drop dead.

The present problem is that communist propaganda was chickenfeed in comparison to the present capitalist crap. And if I didn't do my best to warn people of this fraud, I would again, deserve to croak in the most miserable way.

And I mean it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you think, for instance that the big business organizations, the Council of Chief Executives should represent Canada, or the Council on Foreign Relations, the USA, or the Consejo Mexicano de Asuntos Internacionales, Mexico, in the setting up of a "proto-parliament called The North American Competitiveness Council...to create a single energy policy for North America, and to identify measures to facilitate further the movement of business persons" , otherwise known as "cheap labour", in secrecy and without any public consultations in countries claiming to be democratic?

Who elected these bums and who gave the permission to our governments to bow to their demands and force them on people?

Ed Deak.

Chris H

Re: Courts costs and politicians

It's not nice to stack the deck before one goes in...at least one should be showing some intelligence if one wishes to engage is such dipping into the public purse and thus try not to make it look so damn obvious.

If the Sword of Damocles is hanging over someone at the start, they are far less pre-disposed to risk their reputation, personal assets etc.

If Glennochio did not have the pre-arranged backing to cover his legal ass he may have had 2nd thoughts. However, given that he had the access to the Public funds under the criteria outlined...there is NO risk...hence NO hesitation.

Sure, Glennochio may have risked losing the case, which may have meant he would have to re-imburse the Gov't ...LOL LOL LOL...C,mon....he'd declare BANKRUPTCY in a heartbeat .

( BTW I know someone who declared personal bankruptcy a few years ago and after the bankruptcy laws were changed, they are far better off after, given the apparently liberal allowances for what one is allowed to keep after declaring bankruptcy.)

Glennochio was simply self - placed in a legislated Win - Win situation either way,there was little downside.

In my view,...Change the law , and everyone pays their own court costs...and avoid future chicanery...and this will most certainly help clean up Gov't... WHOMEVER is in.

Second thoughts about what?

You think Glen Clark wanted to be slandered and dragged through that maelstrom of media and police bs?

To suggest that Glen Clark, relative to his stupid deck, was in a win/win situation is complete nonsense. From the moment that the police phoned up the media and told them to be in place in his alley he was screwed.

He couldn't win. And the fact the court found him innocent hasn’t made one iota of difference because idiots like you don't think, don't care and don't understand. Just look at what happened when he made a statement to the press about BC Ferries a few weeks ago - a couple sentences reporting on what he said; and five paragraphs about the irrelevant past.

Some winner. He's lucky to have a job because you and the cops and the bloody media have done your best to ruin the man and his family life to boot. You all ought to be ashamed. If he was in anything like a win/win situation he wouldn’t he the butt of jokes from people like you and Elliot who couldn’t run a snow blower without cutting your hands off. As Ed says, if he couldn’t do the job Jimmy hired him to do he wouldn’t be there. As much as I dislike Jimmy the P, he has a reputation for being absolutely brutal with his staff. If Glen couldn’t produce he’d be out the door and open for more of your stupid slander.

I didn't much like him as premier, but to suggest he was in a win/win situation is just garbage.

That's the way business runs things here in BC maestro. The few times that a government of the people (instead of the plutocrats) manages to get elected, the very next day the folks on Howe street begin planning how they're going to subvert them.

This isn't a democracy any more, it's a plutonomy. Money, and the very few people who have lots of it run everything. Everything. And they do it extremely badly except for a few smart and dishonest people at the top. With a fewer useful idiots like you, it might change. Unfortunately, you're either a paid agent for the plutocrats or you're too stupid to know what's good for you.

Your puerile sniveling response to Anne Cameron's post last night finally convinced me of that.

I'll ignore you in the future. You're not interested in cleaning anything up - you're just interested in spreading the garbage around.

maestro....Do you think we

maestro....Do you think we could, or should sue Mulroney, personally, for the damages done by the FTA and NAFTA and the millions in rewards he received in return ? I would love to, if I had the dough.

I know, Chretien signed the NAFTA, but it was negotiated by M.

Ed Deak.

Yeah ... right!?

So, if politicians aren't protected from the sort of legal problems that occurred to Glen Clark, who is going to run for politics? No one who can't afford good lawyers, that's for sure. Not one MLA would be making the argument you are making. Not Campbell, no one. There sure as heck wasn't too much win for Glen Clark. Why you can't be satisfied that he had to pay over $60,000 to the government for the conflict of interest investigation is beyond me. Is it because he's probably making more money now then you'll ever make? One thing we know, Jimmy loves him. One of the hardest working employees he's ever had. Must come from Clark's union background.

Chris H

Re: Courts costs and politicians

It's not nice to stack the deck before one goes in...at least one should be showing some intelligence if one wishes to engage is such dipping into the public purse and thus try not to make it look so damn obvious.

If the Sword of Damocles is hanging over someone at the start, they are far less pre-disposed to risk their reputation, personal assets etc.

If Glennochio did not have the pre-arranged backing to cover his legal ass he may have had 2nd thoughts. However, given that he had the access to the Public funds under the criteria outlined...there is NO risk...hence NO hesitation.

Sure, Glennochio may have risked losing the case, which may have meant he would have to re-imburse the Gov't ...LOL LOL LOL...C,mon....he'd declare BANKRUPTCY in a heartbeat .

( BTW I know someone who declared personal bankruptcy a few years ago and after the bankruptcy laws were changed, they are far better off after, given the apparently liberal allowances for what one is allowed to keep after declaring bankruptcy.)

Glennochio was simply self - placed in a legislated Win - Win situation either way,there was little downside.

In my view,...Change the law , and everyone pays their own court costs...and avoid future chicanery...and this will most certainly help clean up Gov't... WHOMEVER is in.

Speaking of word games

The new minister of the environment, if possible, looks to be worse than the person he's replaced.

Today in committee hearings he started his submission with a plea for a non-partisan approach.

Then, in virtually every statement he made after that - including a powerpoint presentation from hell - he did nothing but tear huge chunks off the record of the former government. Perhaps he doesn't actually know what the terminlogy non-partisan actually means.

This new government ain't new at all.

Has anyone read Chris Hedges' book American Fascists?

I'll include a short review because I think, given the tone being adopted by our Prime Minister, Stockwell Day and others, that Canadians should start being wary of similar tendencies in this country:

By Chris Hedges.

254 pp. Free Press. $25.

Of course there are Christian fascists in America. How else to describe, say, the administrator of a faith-based drug treatment program who bound and beat a resident, then subjected her to 32 straight hours of recorded sermons? Or American Veterans in Domestic Defense, the uniform-clad cadres who took former Chief Justice Roy Moore’s Ten Commandments monument on tour after a judge banned it from the Montgomery, Ala., judicial building? (American Jews, the group’s founder explained, are “a driving force behind trying to take everything to do with Christianity out of our system.”) Whatever one’s definition of this most vexed of “f” words, in a time when the chief of staff for United States Senator Tom Coburn tells a reporter soon after the Terri Schiavo crisis, “I don’t want to impeach judges; I want to impale them,” to flinch from examining the authoritarian impulses coursing through American life becomes a moral abdication.

Chris Hedges’ “American Fascists,” unfortunately, is not a worthy attempt. The examples above don’t even come from his book. The first two are from Michelle Goldberg’s penetrating and wise “Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism.” The third is from Max Blumenthal, a brave and resourceful reporter adept at turning over rocks that public-relations-savvy Christian conservative leaders would prefer remain undisturbed. Hedges was a longtime foreign correspondent, for The New York Times and other publications. But he writes on this subject as a neophyte, and pads out his dispatches with ungrounded theorizing, unconvincing speculation and examples that fall far short of bearing out his thesis.

In “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” (2002), Hedges’ classic meditation on the perverse pleasure human beings derive from visiting violence upon one another, he wrote, “It took Milosevic four years of hate propaganda and lies, pumped forth daily over the airways from Belgrade, before he got one Serb to cross the border into Bosnia and begin the murderous rampage that triggered the war.” Now he fears that Milosevics may be among us. They are ministers like Russell Johnson, who exhorts a few hundred people at an Ohio voter-registration rally in front of a banner that commingles the Christian cross and the American flag: “We’re on the beaches of Normandy, and we can see the pillbox entrenchments of academic and media liberalism. We’ll take back our country for Christ.”

Hedges’ conclusion: “The crowds are wrapped in the seductive language of violence, which soon enough leads to acts of real violence.”

To reach it, he relies on a body of thought devised long ago to explain the rise of totalitarianism in the middle of the previous century — ideas about how alienation, economic dislocation, the deformation of language and exploitative authoritarian leaders become both the necessary and the sufficient cause for imminent purgative violence. The problem is that he can’t point to any actual existing violence among the people he’s reporting on. This is an argument in the subjunctive mood.

Hedges is a serious Christian himself, a seminary graduate, and is best when he excoriates liberals who prefer to explain away preachers who say things like “Jesus was the most intolerant person in the world” (Hedges heard that at a conference aimed at “curing” people of their homosexuality). Instead, he insists, they must be fought — by anyone (which should be everyone) who believes in the open society. “I will not engage in a dialogue with those who deny my right to be,” his book concludes, “who delegitimize my faith and denounce my struggle before God as worthless.” He is right: they don’t want to share America with people who hold different values; they want dominion — for the Lord to make an America where other values are impossible to hold.

But unless I speak too soon, one notable thing about today’s Christian dominionists is how little recent violence they have unleashed. Not too long ago, during another high tide of a culture war, purgative right-wing vigilantism occurred at regular intervals. Just to take a few examples: in 1966, pacifists were found shot in the back of the head on a dirt bank in Richmond, Va.; in 1967, the New Jersey State Police, after subduing the riots in Newark, went on to terrorize innocent bystanders in what a gubernatorial commission called “a pattern of police action for which there is no possible justification”; in 1968, Cuban exiles bombed more than a dozen offices, both of radical publishers and of nations trading with Castro, in the New York metropolitan area; in 1969, in Chicago, a vigilante beat a radical sociology professor in his office and left him for dead. Self-identified evangelical Christians have carried out acts like this in the past. But virtually none have occurred in years.

There may now indeed be millions more Americans than ever who fantasize about the purgation of their spiritual-cum-political enemies. Readers have, after all, bought more than 60 million books in the “Left Behind” series, a pornography of violence in which the Almighty melts the flesh of unbelievers and wrong-believers off their bones. The message people seem to be imbibing from these novels and from their preachers, however, is not: Take vengeance. It is: Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. Hedges is worst when he makes the supposed imminence of mass violence the reason the rest of us should be fighting for the open society. We should be fighting for it anyway.

Rick Perlstein is the author of “Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus.”

re Capitalism

Ed, I'm having a lot difficulty understanding just what political system you stand for. Like the rest of us, you show a belief in Democracy, but just what form would it take ?

You've identified Capitalism as the root cause of our problems, but you've failed to acknowledge that any moderb society cannot escape the use of Capital - aka Capitalism - which is really only an economic system and not a Political one.

So which of the political systems presently available to control the Capitalist and his/her abuses of our basically Democratic system would you Chooss ? As I recall, you've rejected Communism, Socialism, Fascism, and have acknowledged the shortcomings of Anarchism.

But the Capitalists have not been so coy. They have come out front and center in favour of Fascism, holding that Societal control of Capital is "Government interference" and that "The Market" will deliver all of the various benefits we desire.

As it happens, I agree with your contention that the ability of the Capitalist-controlled banks (Fascism) to print money as they please, is simple theft from the commonweal. However, doing so is simply a misuse of the very valid use of interest, without which Capitalism would collapse.

Which then brings up the question of just how you you suggest we might restrain the abusive use of Capital without destroying the Democratic principles we believe in?

re capitalism

choose, not "Chooss", sorry

One alternative I'd like

would be bioregional economics. And a superministry of environment which would have veto power upon all proposed development. This superministry would be comprised of peer reviewed and well-respected scientists. All unsustainable and energy-wasteful development would, in my system, be vetoed before it ever got started. Total annual cut of timber in the province would be severely restricted, all log exports halted immediately. Surplus hydroelectic energy would be supplied to new, green sawmills. Solar kilns, non-timber forest product development, and community watershed protection and restoration would begin in earnest. Human values would trump those of mobile capital. Limits would be enforced on oil/gas extraction, along with massive duties on exports, effectively eliminating the steady stream of our resource wealth flowing south. (Hey, Venezuela are doing it..)

Sorry friend, this will have

Sorry friend, this will have to wait till tomorrow. I won't go to bed till about 11, but still have a lot of other things to do.

In short, I believe a physical laws based economic system, with many scientists who support my Principle.

As I wrote before, I'm an NDP member, as I consider it the only party that could make the necessary ideological changes, when the carboard castle of capitalism collapses.

Ed Deak.

Murray

In reference to the article, the best thing that could happen to the Left under the present electoral system is not "framing", its if the Libs and Cons merged.

The reason the Cons hardly ever form government in a 2 party system is because they talk out loud and scare the bajeezus out of everybody. So everyone votes for the right-wing Liberals because our system is based on voting for the lesser of two evils.

If we ever get electoral reform the political landscape will be unrecognizable.

Health care

NLN,
And if we didn't put our taxes towards public health care we'd pay even more money into health care.

RealisticMan, Only 3 countries in the world with totally public health care systems and you say Canada is one of those 3? Someone swallowed a sound-bite.

Apparently you don't believe the oft-quoted figure that 30%+ of our "totally public" system is in fact private?

And are you also saying that of your other 237 nations that none of them have health care systems where the private side is less than 30%?

Don't forget

then, Ed, to also include in your response a description of what you'd replace the use of Capital with. The barter system ?

Capital?

Don't confuse capitalism with the need for having a currency. Even the Soviets had money.

reposting

You have to love people who repost their same comment three hours later. Way to stay on message though Maestro! LOL!

for Frank

I'm not an expert on all the systems in the world, Frank. I thought we all knew how Canada's system is defined, so I used the words "supposedly, completely public-only". I also referred to France, since that country, among most all others, has a multi-tier system (various forms of private & public) that is also called a universal system, where patients do not have to pay.

Canada's multi-faceted care includes a variety, including importation of health-care. A friend had cancer and his doctor prescribed treatment, close by, in the USA, paid by the province. I presume the treatment was not available on this side of the border. In this case we are importing the care and you and I are paying for it through our provincial taxes.

The present government is spending lots of money on hospitals infrastucture, developments and construction. There is a shortage of doctors due to many factors.

Do you have some figures or facts or ideas to expand the debate, Frank?

Me3.... Let's not try to get

Me3.... Let's not try to get funny. OK???

Money is an important fact of life, provided it is under democratic public control, and used to supply people with their needs and not as a weapon of destruction and enslavement. We've lived in a society where money was worthless, after WW2, and it was sheer hell.

"With bank deregulation, money ceased to exist as an instrument of trade and became a licence for energy control, issued by a special interest sector for its own benefit, while transferring the responsibility for its convertibility on society at large." My definition.

I have spent 40 years, between 1945 and 85, searching for the "Common Denominator of History's Tragedies", beginning when I was an 18 year old wounded war veteran in a POW hospital in Austria, then 7 years at Cambridge, as a "farm worker". Figure it out.

As Dobbin also hints at it, the problem is that all religions and ideologies can be and have been turned into crime waves, ethnic cleansing and mass murder. Therefore, there's no point in quoting "prophets" like Marx, or Smith, or the Bible, or the Koran, because, beautiful as the thoughts may be, they have all been used for enslavement and mass murder by ruling classes.

The question is how to come up with a system that can not be misused by human predators, regardless under which flag they preach ?

I discovered in 1985 that the presently used definition of economic efficiency, which says "The biggest profits for the least monetary inputs", is a fraud, as it overrules all the laws of engineering efficiency, thermodynamics and all other sciences.

This definition is the key to all economic theories and when we look at history, we can see the same mistake, or fraud, committed by all past civilizations, leading to self destruction.

So, I spent 6 years, consulting with scientists and other free thinkers, to come up with a scientifically correct definition, which I copyrighted in 1991, to establish the date, not for monetary reasons. Anybody is welcome to use it and it remains unbroken on many worldwide economic forums, involving many thousands and used in PhD dissertations.

As far I'm concerned, I have spent a lifetime to come up with the diagnosis, now it is up to others to figure out what to do with it. I'm not in the prophecy business and/or willing to give instructions to future generations. If they don't listen and commit ecological, or economic suicide, it is not my problem.

The key to the solution is to use phyisical laws for economic decisions, because they can not be warped by ideologues, or used for "wealth creation" by crooks, although, some will definitely try, as they do now with the climate change findings.

I will continue in another posting sometime today. Now I have to feed my chickens and cattle, take the puppy for a walk and do some painting.

Meanwhile, "tommymore" came up with some pretty good input. Think about it

Cheers, Ed.

Expanding the debate

Actually realisticman, during previous discussions I've supplied more facts and figures and links on this topic than anyone else on the Tyee including columnists. Will be happy to regurgitate it all if necessary.

No, you were using a sound-bite that originated on the far-Right which suggested only Cuba and North Korea had health care systems like ours. This has been proved to be patently untrue. Even the Right trumpets the 30% is already private figure.

And if that's what the doctor decided was needed (I don't know why) then that's what should be done. Perhaps the only doctor available in that specialty was across the border. Its fine with me to import care when we have to as long as we are willing to take steps to decrease the need, for example by training our own people in that specialty for the future.

They're also spending a lot of money on managers. The number of actual people working in health care has seen a slight decline in spite of the fact that our population is growing. This is why there is such a strain on the system. We've cut the wages of people on the bottom rungs of the health care ladder but haven't saved the money because the private companies now doing those jobs have taken the difference out in profits.

We've increased the wages of the skilled people in the system but we're not employing as many as we need to. We are employing a lot more managers than we used to and at very high salaries. Apparently many of these people do not even have a health care background.

We also have a government that makes cuts and then says health spending is out of control because it eats up a greater portion of the overall budget. Which is like me saying if I lost my job my kid's allowance is out of control because it takes up a greater portion of my after-tax income. I'm sure you would agree that the only fair way to measure health spending is as a percentage of the overall economy? Unfortunately we have a finance minister who doesn't understand that.

Yeats was the greatest of all Irish poets...

a vote for the ndp provincially is like backing a ten year old in a fight against a 225 lb. boxer. We are a continental people now. NAFTA has sealed our fate. Carole James cannot save us.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: you want a more just society, kinder and gentler, slower pace? Then free trade has to go. period.

Ted Tweak.

There's no such thing as

There's no such thing as "free trade", Ted, only the legalization of who controls trade.

The only purpose of the FTA and NAFTA have been the "free movement of capital", colonization with freshly created, imaginary money.

As Prof.Emeritus, of Toronto U., John Crispo, said in a debate with David Orchard: "It makes no difference who owns the country, as long as capital is permitted to move freely".

NAFTA caused more damage to Canada than anybody can imagine, but it is kept a deep secret by our so called "economists". Stats Can classified the removal of machinery from factories closed by NAFTA as "machinery exports".

Ed Deak.

Exactly

Even the Globe and Mail published a stats can report that said 97% of foreign investment wasn\t actually investment, it was just the takeover of already existing Cdn companies. Being as in some cases some of those jobs are subsequently moved south, foreign investment has actually cost us jobs.

the european union was

the european union was created so that war would be made impossible in europe. Economies would be inter-connected. Is this not a good thing? It comes with a price tag, however. The French are afraid of the 'polish plumber'. (skilled trademen from eastern europe who will work for a pittance as the cost of living in poland is not as high as france).

What about North America? What say you, Fiat Lux?

Proof

Frank, I can't find any proof of a government that has "made cuts" in Health Care. Perhaps you have a link?

I can't

I can't provide a link because I didn't say what you thought I said. I was actually referring to tax cuts, not health cuts. The idea being you make the tax pie smaller and then say the things in the pie are taking up a greater percentage of the room inside. Which is what I went on to reiterate in what I said about a kid's allowance.

If you re-read what I wrote you'll see that your view of what I wrote would actually make no sense. Cut health yet its getting bigger? Sorry I wasn't clear.

Wages should be tied to the

Wages should be tied to the cost of living and imported labour, or goods, from low cost countries, are the real trade distortions. E.f. Chinese imports are not lowering, but increasing costs in Canada.

Also, something economists and politicians are unable to grip is, that in each society, from the ground up, people are born with certain talents, including born into trades and if these talents are not used creatively, they'll become liabilities and burden on society.

I was born to be an artist and cabinetmaker and although I have all the education, I left it behind and went into apprenticeship at 28. I have known people, who were geniuses in their trades, but would have become alcoholics, or drug addicts, or criminals, if they'd been forced into something else.

I would rather commit suicide than work in an office and even now, within 2 months of 80, I work in a variety of jobs every day, painting and making things, don't see doctors, take no pills. Not even aspirins or similar junk. Living in an apartment would kill me, or cause huge medical expenses to society, as it does in the case of unhappy millions, forced into unsuitable occupations

Now try to explain this to an economist!!!!
So, I'm using my education and research as a hobby to bust their stupid asses and I'm doing great.

Ed Deak.

Tax Levels

Frank - appreciate the explanation. As for "tax cuts" when program spending is increasing who's taxes are getting cut?

Tax cuts

You quoted "tax cuts"? Why? The papers announced it in pretty big headlines. According to even economists on my side of the discussion, let alone those who like the Campbell-Martin policies, tax rates for many people have fallen.

I would argue that taxes on the lower rungs have actually increased to make up for that but that's not the issue here.

From your reply I assume you're saying that program spending is on the increase so all must be well?

In my opinion it isn't but I'm more interested in your opinion. Do you think outcomes have improved? Do you think the health sector employs more people involved in patient care? Do you think people are happier with their healthcare system than they were 10 years ago? Are you?

Do you think that Campbell should be taking credit for the increase in absolute dollars or do you think, like me, that the increase should have been much more since in fact he is literally taking credit for the Feds putting money into health care? Remember their "Fix health care for a generation" jingle?

So if the population is both increasing and aging and the Feds have sent us truckloads of dollars to put into health care, even though they didn't force the province to actually spend it there, why hasn't the health care workforce grown? And if healthcare is sucking up every available dollar as our math-challenged finance minister claims, why hasn't there been a big increase in the healthcare spending to GDP ratio?

Frank

I referred to cuts as in “tax cuts’ because clearly our government isn’t cutting spending, particularly in Health Care. I don’t see taxes actually falling while program spending is increasing….more like tax policy changing while the government collects more money from us.

My position on program spending is exactly opposite of what you suggest. As long as program spending is increasing I’m (and probably most taxpayers) paying more taxes.

The quality of Health Care outcomes is hard to judge, my personal experiences have been fine, many anecdotal stories claim otherwise and the statistics are difficult to quantify.

I think there are systemic issues that should be addressed before we increase Health Care spending. I expect the dialogue to be high-jacked by the usual suspects.

I don’t see a clear connection between GDP and Health Care expenditures. It’s certainly one ratio that can be considered but there is no catch-all to determine what the appropriate level of expenditure should be.

We are spending significantly more on Health Care every year and if that trend continues it will eventually absorb every available dollar…….

Neither taxes, or costs can

Neither taxes, or costs can be cut, only the real costs transferred on other sectors, the environment and the future. Somebody, somewhere, some time must pay the full costs.

The present climate change, food bank lines, explosion of cancers and other medical problems, etc. etc. are transferred real costs.

Monetary taxcuts, and other so called cost cuts are nothing more than games to cover up the facts, because monetary values are not realities, but often, violence induced, temporary perceptions.

This is an important part of my "Principle for the application of physical laws to economics" , that remains unbroken in 16 years of wide exposure and has been used in scientific DSc dissertations.

Ed Deak.

Tax cuts

Its not that simple. When the feds are handing the province billions of extra dollars in various types of transfers you can get the result of increased program spending and lower provincial taxes.

Such as what happened to the Kirby and Romanow reports? The business sector and the media either attacked or ignored them. Which is generally what happens when reforms are proposed that don't call for privatization.

How? People are spending more to buy new cars every year yet no one is suggesting that at any time all of our dollars will go to purchasing new cars. Or movies or soft drinks or anything else.

Comparing health costs to GDP isn't perfect but it does make it obvious we are in absolutely no danger of seeing health costs consume a greater share of the economy, let alone all of it.

By the way

Just thought I should also add a note, that in relation to the overall economy the size of government spending is actually shrinking.

If one wanted to "pull a Carole Taylor" one could even boldly state that if this trend continues the BC government will one day cease to exist.

I don't know

I don't know where to post this story, or even if it's true. I check out National Review Online every now and again just to see how stanley Kurtz, David Frum and the rest of the gang there are getting on.

This, about what Karl Rove is meant to have said about the Republican immigration policy in the States, is pretty damning if it's true and it's even more surprising that it would be posted on this site. Maybe some of these guys are waking up to the fact that they haven't been 'framing' the issues ethically for the past dozen years.

Who knows, I think it says a lot about how morally bankrupt these people actually are.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTZhZDdiYmJlNDViYTAwOWExNmUyMmQ5ODlmMWYwYTU=

Rove + Rogue Leger Poll?

I was glad too, to see (in the non-right wing press)Rove get in hot water for his comment about "not wanting his 17 yr. old son to have to pick tomatoes...".
It's great to see right wing sites nailing him over it too!
*****************************
Odd Polling news out this week.
The previous polls I'd seen in the news in recent weeks basicly had the Cons and Libs neck and neck.

So, a new Leger poll out this week showing the Cons with 38% support over the Libs' 31%, gave me cause for concern, especially when it was a poll published in the Star, and not the often poll-rigging CanWest/Ipsos Reid.

Leger may be a rogue (wrong) poll, if another poll by SES published today in the
Ottawa Sun is correct (it gives the Libs and Cons a tie at 33% each).The article also mentions that "other polls" (without specifying)also out this week ,also agree with SES, and the article notes Leger's the odd one out.

I followed the polling closely last federal election, and SES turned out to have the most accurate polling calls nationally, and regionally, by the end of the campaign. And they never came out with far out (wrong) predictions along the way such as we saw at times in the Globe with Alan Gregg's polls and spin (recall Gregg and the Globe were mostly pro-Harper then).

The most glaring example came fairly late in the campaign, with a Globe/Gregg poll with a headline claiming the Cons still had a shot at majority - when all other polls showed the Cons momentum had peaked and was falling. It seems Canwest isn't the only media outfit capable of abusing polling for political agendas and spin purposes.

Next election, I'll remember to give more credence to SES polls than others.
Their track record suggests impartiality, and superior sampling and data interpretation.

Poll Links

I forgot to give links to the articles with the polls.
SES Poll: http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2007/02/10/3577619-sun.html
Leger Poll:
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/179796

Frank

So where do the federal tax dollars come from?

Not necessarily, unless you have data to prove that the net spending on cars is going up.

Perhaps not but it is continuing to consume a bigger share of the tax revenue generated by the economy,

And many people think that’s a good thing considering the waste, mismanagement and vote-buying bribery that most governments engage in……

Have you ever had any

Have you ever had any experience with big business and the huge waste they produce, the corrupt executives filling their pockets, the fraudulent invoicing, all written of as "tax deductible business expenses" ?

I could have written a book in what I have seen in my 22 years working with them.

The biggest racket was that my cheque was always in the mail, for weeks, earning interest for the crooks. The bigger they were, the bigger the holdbacks, fraud and cheating.

A big name capitalist came into my shop one day, remiscing about the beautiful woodwoking factory he used to have, ending with "....too bad I had to put it into bankruptcy" So, I asked him why he did it, if he enjoyed it so much?

He replied "I was making too much money in my other businesses and had to write something off to come out on top...ha..ha..ha"

Some of the biggest names I've known have put businesses into bankruptcies , while collecting millions, and opening the same businesses the next day with new names, and boasting about it.

I had friends who have been put out of business up to 3 times by fraudulent bankruptcies. Remember Comonwealth Trust and the numbers they put out of business. How about Enron in the USA? It almost happened to me, but their crowning glory was when they stole my business, without paying for it. All bloody legalized fraud.

You poor, gullible, brainwashed fools, who have absolutely no idea what is going on behind the scenes.

As a dedicated private enterpriser, why do you think I hate big business with a passion.

Ed Deak.

hyeena

I suggest you watch the film, A Simple Curve. Fiat Lux, you would enjoy that.

Fiat

Ed, as a matter of fact I have worked in Big Business. Therefore, I have a true understanding of how they work. That’s why I constantly challenge your position that they are all frauds and thieves, because I know better.

If not knowing what goes on behind the scenes is you benchmark for understanding then you seem to be the one that’s lacking. I guess that makes you the brainwashed fool…..

Polling firms

A link for Bob999 .
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=canadian+polling+firms&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D6b551a491c08d889%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Dcanadian%2Bpolling%2Bfirms%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmcsrt.org%252Fresources%252Fpolling%252Findex.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fmcsrt.org%2Fresources%2Fpolling%2Findex.htm

According to economist Hugh

According to economist Hugh Mackenzie, of the CCPA, widely reported in the media, the top 100 of Canada's executives "earned" more by 9:46 am of Jan. 2, than the majority of Canadians work for in a year.

This has not been denied by the corporate PR agencies, like the Fraser Inst. and all on public record, where he got the figures.

The lowest paid of the 100 will take home about $2.8 million this year.

A few weeks ago, the departing head of Home Depot, widely reported all over North America, received a final handout of $210. million US, which embarrassed even his peers, but still falls short of a Disney CEO, who, a few years ago, collected $540. million in one year.

Canada's banks have been making multiple and record profits last year, now they want to merge, so they can "reduce staff and become more efficient". Look at the "earnings" of their CEOs and executives.

All these come out of the public's pocket in the form of taxation without representation, in short, theft and robbery from their employees and customers, because nobody can "earn" these kind of payouts....growing every year.

Plus what they steal on the side by having their companies pay for all kinds of expenses. Even 30 years ago, I felt embarrassed when I had lunches on their expense accounts and had to charge my work to their companies, but I had no choice if I wanted to survive, while my wife worked as a part time gifwrapper at Woodward's, to feed our kids.

I even built some stuff for their girlfriends and some occasions, the luxury "hospitality suites", for the high priced call girls they used to entertain each other with.

Wake up kid, from your ideology induced hysteria, the life you're wasting, defending them, is the only one you have, so why waste it on garbage?

On the other hand, I've heard the same defence of nazi and communist bosses, so there's nothing new in the vocabulary of the faithful

Ed Deak.

Ed's got legit points

Thanks Hannibal for the link. I used to work for many of those research cos. listed, for many years when I worked in the polling field doing contract work.But I see my favourite political pollster, SES (who I never worked for), isn't even listed!
****************************
Ed's got legit points, despite what corporate apologists such as noleftnutter might like to fantasize as being the case.

Anyone who's followed the business news of recent years should be aware of the breathtaking breadth and depth of corporate corruption that has come to light, not just in the US but in Canada too. Hopefully, those who are aware of this, are also appalled by it.

...Where to begin...how about the Enron case, the largest case (in terms of money) of corporate fraud in history, based on
fraudulent accounting intended to hide the true financial picture of the co. (dire) in order to keep the stock price high so that co. insiders' generous options and shares would keep the gravy train flowing their way. When the co. went bankrupt (the shell game blew up), workers who had been conned into holding Enron shares in their retirement accounts, ended up losing all their money and their hopes for retirement.

I mention Enron 'cause several of the big 5
Canadian banks were involved in schemes to help Enron's crooked managers hide the cos. true finances. If the banks had been innocent participants ignorant of the true situation, they wouldn't have paid the massive reparations they did. Otherwise,they could have proven their "innocence" in court. CIBC paid out
over $2.6BILLION in an out of court settlement. Royal Bank and and TD also were
implicated (and faced class action charges of "aiding and abetting" Enron's frauds). They paid out smaller, though significant reparations, in the many $10s of Millions each. When 3 of Canada's big 5 banks are implicated in the largest corporate accounting fraud in history, it suggests
a systemic problem of high level corruption. It wasn't just one rogue bad apple.

The scandal in Canada and the US involving mutual fund cos. again suggested systemic problems, not isolated incidents.

Four of the largest Cdn. fund companies, AGF, IG, CI, and AIC, were all investigated by the OSC in '04 for so-called "late trading" schemes which violated the cos' own stated policies of each prospectus.

They were found guilty of breaching fiduciary duties to clients by running the schemes, which allowed favoured large clients (such as hedge funds) to game the system and remove and pocket profits that otherwise should go to all unit holders.
The 4 cos. agreed to pay $156.5 Mill. reparations to fund co. clients who'd been ripped off with the approval of their own fund co.

It's apparent there was a widespread culture of corruption in the mutual fund business that allowed this to occur as a kind of ongoing "racket". It's reminiscent of the kinds of racketeering stuff the Mafia are famous for.

In the US, another scandal involving the
Insurance Brokerage business came to light.
Again, a number of the very top, most respected firms, in concert with insurance cos., were found to have operated ongoing fraudulent schemes that victimized small clients (people using their services to find the lowest insurance rates).
The scheme involved phoney "bidding", to make it appear to the client that a number of different insurance cos. were offering a rate to them for a specific type of insurance they wanted.
It was all faked. The bids were falsified, so that a favoured ins. co. appeared to offer the lowest rate, and thus the client would be sold on that ins. co. based on false info.
It was out and out fraud. The brokers purported to locate the best rate for "Favoured Ins. co. X"'s rate looked the lowest!

This was systemic, a fraudulent racket widespread throughout an industry.

The most recent scandal is the so-called
"backdating of options" fraud, that hundreds of major US corporations, across many sectors, are currently being investigated for. Steve Jobs at Apple is just one of the better known investigat-ees.

Again, it appears to be a massive systemic fraudulent racket to remove large amounts money from the pockets of ordinary shareholders and place it in the pockets of the insiders at the top - as if these guys don't make enough money without using out and out fraud!
Is as if their greed is limitless.

The evidence is overwhelming that the corporate world has allowed widespread cultures of corruption to develop and thrive. It was almost a fluke that NY voters voted in an Attorney General, Eliot Spitzer, who, for a change, took corporate crime investigation seriously.

If it wasn't for Spitzer, it would likely still be largely "business as usual" for the corporate world: that is, practices
similar to Mafiosi rackets (but with fewer murders) continuing unabated.

The facts argue against the corporate apologists like the Tyee poster who's apparently lacking his left nut (they say Napoleon was a one testicled fellow too...Could "testicle envy" have been what drove him to want to conquer Europe?)!

Oops

A passage about the mutual fund scandal, above, should read;
It was out and out fraud. The brokers purported to locate the best rate for the client, but instead used fraud to make "Favoured Ins. co. X"'s rate looked the lowest!

Framing Issues

I am one who most emphatically does not buy the extreme position that the market "always knows best" and the the government "who governs least, governs best". However, I also don't believe (and to be honest I think it naive to believe) that the democratic electoral process is so perfect that the converse is true either.

I think the "left" will do much better when it recognizes (and not grudgingly) that there are spheres in which market provision is better, and spheres where public provision is better, and that laws and regulations can always be improved. I am not saying that "improved" has to mean "weakened", but they can often genuinely be made smarter if one keeps one mind open.

Right now, both "the left" and "the right" are demonstrating how lacking in open-mindedness they are by rejecting higher carbon taxes (in knee-jerk fashion) as a significant (and essential) part of any realistic strategy to deal with climate change.

The right is being closed-minded in arguing that carbon taxes necessarily amount to a tax increase (income taxes can be cut to offset the income effect) and erode competitiveness (they could improve it) while the left is being closed-minded to think carbon taxes are necessarily regressive (accompanying income tax reform can be progressive if the focus is on cutting low-bracket rates and raising the basic exemption).

To heck with "framing" - lets improve the quality of the debate on public policy by improving the real content, by being a little more imaginative than we have been up to now.

Michael Barkusky