I dunno, but 25% doesn't really impress me all that much, eh. Have you heard of the "prosecutor's fallacy"? Comparing a 250 batting average to drug treatment success might be a new twist on that error. In fact your so-called "judeo-christian" comment is even less persuasive. Can you see a doctor giving a prescription to a patient and telling him that this has only worked for one person although millions have tried it? And as for your 25% return creating Canada's next billionaire. I'll remember that when I'm doing my taxes, because I have a little suite in the other half of my mobile home which I rent out for $500 bucks. I get a 30% or so return on my money because the trailer only cost me $18,000 bucks. I'm pretty well happily poverty-stricken now and I'll remain that way, again happily. No prospect of billionaire, millionaire or even serious thousandaire status on the horizon as far as I can see.

So you see, Berner, you're just not all that convincing, eh.

And what about all those heroin addicts that kicked their habits within 48 hours? Shouldn't they have increased your success rate to 100 percent.

I never saw a heroin addict take more than 48 hours to kick a habit. I never saw anyone have a fit, swallow their own tongue or walk through walls.

Your numbers don't JIVE man .

YOU SAY,YOU SAW HUNDREDS KICK THE HABIT ?That would mean thousands went back .

25 % = hundreds
? = thousands DO THE MATH ...

so much for the priviliged few in your CLIQUE

IT'S THE MANY THAT FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS IN OUR SOCIETIES THAT NEED THE HELP

not your anectdotal clique , and as an ex psychiatric child care worker the first thing i would ask is ,if you were so sucessful,where are the DOCUMENTATION LOGS AND STUDY PAPERS that are ALWAYS written in these exercises/studies ?

ANY REFENCE MATERIAL ? OR JUST YOUR ANECTDOTES ESPOUSING TOUGH LOVE ?

heraldkann, you've got Berner all wrong. I got this from the horses mouth. When he says he never saw a heroin addict who took more than 48 hours to kick the habit it's a reference to a ritual they had at the treatment place. You see they found some nun's clothes in the alley and somebody put them in the common room. It became a ritual, like kissing the blarney stone sorta, for the addicts to go and kick the nun's clothes, eh--which most did within 48 hours, eh.

Yeah,i know ...i have heard this guy off and on over the years and i always have him wrong.

Lets,see...he is as right winged as you can get and a professional AGITATOR for one of the SCUMMIEST radio stations in Canada.

NOW,IF YOU LEFT THIS HERE WITH A SCORE BOARD MARKING THE RESULTS ? AGREE...DISAGREE ?

but ,there are no records of the exercise/study/program ,SO WHY,WOULD I EXPECT ANY HONESTY HERE ?

Small wonder ,he has the fans that he does...

Yeah, I'm naturally skeptical when I read about junkies kicking the habit in 48 hours. On the other hand, I can understand that self-perpetuating bureaucracies and technocratic academic instituations are often as useless as we like to think they are.

Make Work Programs are a dime a dozen for those that make a living on the MISERY of others and the MONIES paid out to help the MISERABLE only falls into the well manicured hands of the ,doctors.lawyers,social workers,police,etcetra.

Once we legalise ALL DRUGS and control their use like alcohol,WE WILL SAVE BILLIONS over the time it takes to educate the next generations,so they will not fall prey to their own weakness or the INFLUENCE of others.

But i see that,NEVER HAPPENING BECAUSE OF THE MONEY MONGERS IN THE USA

The money mongers is the USA, please haraldkan't please come up with something original.
It seems the left ( I won't call them progressives, maybe regressives ) seem to come alive to ideas like live sex clubs and free drugs ?
You have to go back to the sixties. I was there. WAS there. Unfortunately some remnants of this generation are still out there, as you can clearly see by the rantings of the regular writers on this site.
To blame every problem on the USA is truly stupid. The streets are paved with gold if you don't screw up and make bad decisions.
I say bust drug users and their dealers.
Lock them up and throw away the key.
This enabling, appeasing atmosphere that permeates Vancouver thinking is dangerous.

IAMC
You really don't know very much about the size and the power of the drug industry that Harald was talking about.
Just a few facts for your consideration:

1.Drug companies are the most profitable industry in the USA. In 2001, a year which saw a drop in employment rates and a plunge in the stock market and failures of several huge companies, drug companies rolled right along as the most profitable industry according to Fortune 500.

Overall profits of Fortune 500 companies declined by 53%, the 2nd biggest dive in profits in its 47 years, at the same time the top 10 U.S. drug companies managed to increase profits by 33%

2. The 10 drug companies in the Fortune 500 topped all 3 of the magazine's measures of company profitability for 2001.

These drug companies had the greatest return on revenues, a profit of 18.5 cents for every $1 of sales, which was 8 times higher than the median for all Fortune 500 industries, easily surpassing the next most profitable industry, commercial banking, with a 13.5% return on revenue.

3. In 1998 an study in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed that 106,000 people die each year in American hospitals from medication side effects - about 300 deaths a day.
Deaths in major airline crashes in the U.S. average less than 300 each year. Everyone knows about the airline crashes but no one's aware of the epidemic of 'official' drug related deaths.

And that's only the deaths. Why do you think Harald says the drug industry is as powerful and dangerous as the street pushers? Why would he suggest the industry and the people who milk its victims and the government for money would never willingly give up the monopoly on drugs that some kind of regulated legalization of substances like cannabis, heroin and cocaine would entail?

You'd like to lock the drug executives and legal pushers up and throw away the key?
A lot of people would agree with you.

G West
You are not going to tire me out or hypnotize me with your deflections in the direction of the ridiculous. This poster is trying to justify the use of recreational drugs.
You are confused or dumb if you really want me to buy your argument.
Life can be most enjoyed without drug use.
You must be high to post these comments.
Clean up your act.

No IAMC, the point was made that the drug companies would not stand still for the legalization of the drugs that cause ‘some’ of the problems - because they want to be the only businesses with a monopoly on any kind of drug manufacturing and sales.
Again, this is what Harald wrote, read it carefully:

then he followed with this:

What could be clearer? Do you not realize that a very large proportion of the drugs prescribed in the US and Canada are meant to treat exactly the same kind of social maladaptation and unhappiness that induce people to turn to street drugs? Are you aware of the annual sales of Prozac and similar products? Surely you can't believe the only drugs these people market are aspirins?

I posted the material to illustrate how high the stakes actually are in this silly game.

You must be an IDIOT!

this piece is so inspirational. And then you read the next one *laughs*

G West ,you know as well as i,that a lot of these people have reading difficulties and some just skirt over the piece paying little attention to the material,they just go for the people they want to harass.

THERE ARE NO DECENT ARGUEMENTS TO CONTINUE DRUG PROHIBITION...ALCOHOL PROHIBITION SHOWED THAT LONG AGO.

and yes,WE STILL HAVE ALCOHOLICS

and yes,WE WILL STILL HAVE ADDICTS

AND WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE ,FRAGILE PEOPLE,WE ARE NOT PERFECT.

that is why there are people who will always FEED ON THE WEAK...for sex,for money,for power

Reading this thread, it seems that people with experience (first-hand, or in helping addicts) understand there's more than one way to get clean... and more than one roadblock to that goal. Not so, the advocates of self-help.

Certainly there are many addicts, addicted to many substances, from chocolate to crack. Certainly some people will be able to free themselves. Certainly, the will to succeed is a crucial first ingredient. But, to suggest it's the only one, or that those who can't rehab without a lot of help are suffering from a failure of self-control (duh!) is to show a lack of empathy and understanding of the issues so profound as to pretty much render any of their ideas about addiction and rehab as unrealistic.

Your "will to succeed"(sic) is one of those misconceptions that the layman commonly mouths and dosen't understand ,it is not the will to succeed,IT IS THE SURVIVAL INSTINCT THAT NEEDS TO BE REKINDLED.

Once the SURVIVAL INSTINCT is gone,you have nothing more than a vacant person wanting GRATIFICATION at any expense.

And knowing the differences between ADDICTIONS and DEPENDENCIES is something else the layman falls short on and if a person doesn't know the difference,then their comments are nothing more than empty rhetoric/wasted space/wasted time .

"will to succeed" why the sic?

Sorry, if my terminology isn't exact enough, but unless you expand on your comments and explain to those of us who might not know the diff. between an addiction and a dependency, telling us we're wrong without telling us why is an even bigger waste of space and time.

As pointed out the "will to succeed"(sic) is an error,the addict needs a will to survive if detox and other programs are to be expidited for his/her use and the expense justified by the bean counters.These are also the layman that singularly hold the purse strings and call the shots for the programs,lumping all druggies as addicts and ignoring those who just have dependencies,yet putting them in the same group.Dependencies are easier/more suceptible to detoxification and other programs...sorting out,who is who,is a moneypit in itself .

When people realize,some addicts are just not going to respond,you will see programs dying faster than they are now.They/politicians,will not gamble on lost causes and unfortunately those just dependant will be the biggest losers.

You've used (sic) incorrectly. There's no error in my statement except in your perception of it. I'm enjoying your sudden interest in grammar and usage. Other than that you make some interesting points.

Succes is an end product that only comes with a junkies/addicts death

Every,addict/junkie,that cleaned up is always in jeopardy of relapse,so where is the success ?

You are playing with the language,you used the term incorrectly.

[B]you can never succeed,only manage the disease[B]

You might know something about addiction. You don't know much about grammar or usage. Stick to what you know.

In Malaysia, if you are caught stoned or with a small amount of drugs, it straight to rehab. My wife said they had about a 15% success rate.

If you were caught with enough stuff to be considered a dealer, life was very bad or very short.

Stump,i have read your posts and you cannot teach anyone,any thing,about [B]grammar[/B,or,any thing else,from what i have gleaned from your offerings.

If you are ,why don't you spend the night correcting everyones ,supposed mistakes and give us all a break from your know it all attitude .

In Malaysia, if you are caught stoned or with a small amount of drugs, it straight to rehab. My wife said they had about a 15% success rate.

I guess that's why so many Malaysians live elsewhere.For a better life.

Putting some one in jail for being stoned is the same as being in jail for being a drunk like Gordon Kampbell.

Now how can a criminal still be premier of BC,i ask you ?

seems your thought process is a little fogged up there colin

What is it about this topic that makes everyone go so odd?

Can I suggest that these exchanges might be more productive and more interesting if we all refrain from personal insults and avoid such adjectives as stupid, retard, confused, dumb, or idiot. As soon as these objectionable terms start to appear in one of these threads, the quality of arguments invariably falls off sharply.

"(sic)" is used in parentheses to indicate that typos or misspellings are transferred from the original, not the product of the quoter. It's usually only used as an insult, by a snotty critic trying to seem superior. The effect is diminished when the quoter is using poor grammar himself.

Peter Sellers once played a working class clergyman mistakenly given a wealthy parish. He was criticized for a plan he had, to get the rich to give food to the poor for free, on the grounds that the poor would be spoiled by it.

"Oh, it's not the poor I'm worried about", he said, "it's the rich whose souls need saving"

25% is a good rate. All these programs help some, fail to help many more. The point is to try. Don't you see that? The reason for each individual success is the same. Somebody tried to help, and touched somebody's life.

If you see misery and you don't reach out your hand, what does that make you? Addicts will do what they can. Some will be saved, some lost, and that's just true.

What will WE do? It's a very important question. Who are WE really, when push comes to shove?

Berner's approach makes good sense on a number of counts. The program provides companionship and a sense of belonging to a purposeful community. The counselling and therapy sessions within the "micro society"of resident members provide support and insight, and everyone within the community is participating. Education and recreation are also key elements of the program, and I would hazard a guess that the education is probably viewed as relevant and necessary by the people in the recovery program. Finally, there is the practical application of skills in the jobs made available within this program.

It's been said that when one is trying to kick a nasty habit, one needs to replace the dysfunctional habit with a rewarding habit. Extending this principle beyond the personal, singular experience, it's interesting to see how the subculture of the addict can be transformed into a functional subculture, a micro society that not only replaces negatives with positives, but provides its participants with the skills to begin processing all of these changes.

Although I question the 48-hours-to-kick-the-habit assertion made by Berner, this model looks much better than the total medicalization (is that even a word?) of the problem that the government-business cartel would have us buy. And buy. Instead of looking for perfect solutions in a facile manner, let's start with a "good" program, and fine-tune it as needed. Gets my vote.

haraldkann
Let me remind you that Gordon Campbell doesn't have a criminal record. Your sanctimonious attack on this man charged with a misdemeanor charge is so tired, but I will continue to correct you every time you lie like this.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Misdemeanor? I worked with a guy who couldn`t travel to the U.S. because of an impaired driving charge. So what was the picture with the numbers under his chin? "charged with a misdemeanor charge"...hmm gonna have to chew on that one..
Wasn`t he jailed? So..you`re saying being charged with impaired driving is a misdemeanor?
In the U.S.? In Canada?...could you post a link or some factual information to back that up.
He was a drunk...now he`s a dry drunk..any alcoholic or reformed alcoholic can see that.

bob
Let me reassure you that everything I stated is true, and has been vetted many times on this site.
Haraldkann is a bit of a propagandist on this matter, but he may have some kind of agenda.
Judge not, let ye be judged.

The mans father was an alcoholic...and unfortunately a suicide.
When a young man grows up without a father..
a large hole is created inside him...that hole fills with demons.. ( the demons can be addictions, drugs, alcohol, misogyny, you pick your choice of poison)

As i said when you started posting under your new handle,you are just a RIGHT WING WACKJOB apologist for the KAMPBELL KLAN.

Anyone,arressted,printed,mugshot,jailed is considered to have engaged in a criminal activity,ask any junkie/addict.

GORDON KAMPBELL is a criminal,KNOWN TO POLICE,just like every other criminal that has A RECORD.at the border you have to declare that you have a record,a misdemeanor,is recorded,therefore you have a CRIMINAL RECORD.

And you are right,i do have an agenda and that is to show how brain dead most of the right wing are,how perverse,how cruel and totally pyschopatic,bean counters like you and your ilk are,especialy the KAMPBELL KLAN .

And how people on drugs/on the street do not get the special treatment afforded scum like GORDON KAMPBELL...

The homeless numbers have SKYROCKETED in BC since this SCUMBAG has ascended the THRONE to RULE .

and he is nothing more than a half assed teacher used as a puppet who got caught being a drunk while abusing the public trust,now if that isn't a good definition of a criminal,it certainly fits the definition of a politician.All you have to do is look at KLEIN for a example of a Drunk besotted with his own power...LIKE KAMPBELL .

Finally an argument for recovery that makes a lot of sense.
I was at a convention in Vancouver a couple of years ago for a twelve step program and there were over two thousand recovering addicts there. Recovery does work but there are those with their own agendas that have taken over in Vancouver and harm reduction and drug legalization is their mantra.
I have owned a business for over fourteen years that hires only addicts, most of who have either been homeless at one point or in conflict with the law and many turn their lives around.
The problem with traditional treatment is that most programs are geared towards treating only the drug problem when in fact the drugs are only the most obvious symptom of a much larger problem. In most cases an addict has completed the program in twenty eight days and they are returned to society to fend for themselves. For any chance of long term success they need a continum of support as they wrestle with livng in the community facing life on life's terms without the use of drugs. Many relapse when the reality sets in that getting a job isn't easy with no refernces and the same is true for finding housing. With support many more would be able to become responsible and productive members of society.
Sad thing is though is that with lions share of money going towards harm reduction initiatives there is no money going towards quality, innovative treatment approaches.
A fellow phoned me last week crying and he wanted help, he phoned detox and was number forty nine on the list. That same fellow could have went to a doctor got on Methadone the same day or went and shot up in the safe? injection site the same day as well. Something is really wrong with this picture, all kind of services to continue addiction, not a lot of services for someone who wants to quit though.
It's same old, same old at city hall and it will only get worse. Vancouver is becoming a mecca for those who wantall the harm reduction services and warmer climate.

Methadone is interim treatment for QUITTING,seems you are talking the same NONSENSE as DAVID BERNER...

i knew a guy ,who knew a guy,and this guy said that ,that guy said,that this guy said,that...

ANECTDOTES FROM ANONYMOUS ? AS GOOD AS BELIEVEING THE WRITING ON A BATHROOM WALL.

Actually Methadone is far worse than Heroin. The withdrawl from Methadone is excruciating and long term, up to a month. Heroin withdrawl is a few days and that is from first hand experience.
Its sad to walk into a Safeway or whatever and see teenagers up at the pharmacy counter drinking the orange colored Methadone, I know what the future holds for them. You say "Methadone is an interim treatment for quitting", wrong. It was about withdrawl when the Methadone "Withdrawl" program first came out in 1959 and was a treatment for quitting. They changed it from "Withdrawl" to "The Methadone Maintenance program" and since then it is about maintenance rather than quitting.
As for Antedotes from Anonymous, if you like I will give you my phone# and I will meet with you and introduce you to some of the anonymous folks I talk about.

I think it is time to bring in the Bristol experience because the drug situation is being presented as an either/or. Either legalization(medicalization) or[I]treatment...when obviously it's both.

In Bristol, UK, addicts have been supplied with as close to drug of choice for 35+- years. Most go home, watch telly with the family,get so bored that after 6 months that they go into rehab. Big sucess rate!

Get the profit out and the problem will disappear and so will the schoolyard pushers and one of the reasons I finally resorted to having bars put on my windows.

The "drug problem" was deliberately created not only because of Big Pharma's interest in maintaining a monopoly and preventing the medicinal use of out-of-patent pain killers and mood altering drugs. May I remind you all of the CIA/Mafia conections to all this?

this from barryjo

As usual someone who reads one or two posts and figures everyboody else is a neophyte.

WHEN I WAS THREE YEARS OLD,i watched a BOER WAR VETRAN injecting himself with morphine to kill the pain of a wound that injured his spinal column and constantly held him in pain.

When i was seven years old,our good friends lost their son to a heroin overdose,this was a little mining community in northern ontario in 1956,he was supposed to be babysitting my brother and me.

When i was in the military between 1966 and 1971.i lost a half dozen friends to OVERDOSES.

When i finished my training as a psychiatric child care worker/behavioural modification,i thought i could help.After 18 months of dealing with people,who just wanted their next fix,committed suicide,killed others and generaly did not give a shit about anything.I said,GOOD BYE...

every once in awhile,when i see something that could be made better for those unfortunates,i put my two cents woth in the pot.

I am also,one who is DEPENDANT on pain killers to live my life with out excruciating pain,thanx to a very bad motorcycle accident and the real lack of CARING in the HEALTH SYSTEM.

So save your RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION for the UNEDUCATED.

I ,been there, done that,you cannot tell me SQUAT .

HARALDKANN,
I can feel your pin from here and I'm not talking physical pain, you are really hurting.
I am not sure what your point is but I too have seen a lot of people die from overdoses, been to many funerals. I watched the life drain out of my four year old sons face as he died from complications following minor surgery (he was allergic to the anesthetic), it stopped his hear and by the time they resuccitated him he was brain dead.
I have had three back surgeries and was dependant on narcotics for pain relief until I realized there were other heahier ways for ME to deal with the pain. I've had Hep C for thirty four years, I got it before they knew what it was, they called it non A non B back then. I deal with my hep C with proper diet, vitamin B12 shots etc. and it is down to almost undetectable levels now.
I only mention the above to let you know we all have our difficult times to deal with.
I don't suggest anyone deal with there situation the same way I deal with mine, I do suggest though that life is what you make it. I am healthy and love life and I know many out there who were like me living behind dumpsters can change if they have the desire and the services are available to support them as they change.
I am only one of thousands who got sick and tired of being sick and tired. It is my hope that funding will be available for treatment so many more don't die needlessly as many now can't get into a treatment bed no matter how sick and tired they are.

Barryjo
There will never be real tresatment programs as long as organized gov't/crime syndicates profit from drugs! What motivations is there for politicians to go for real solutions if they are dependant on drug money, no matter how laundered to get re-elected?

See how it runs:
http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars1.html

Nana,
There will be real treatment progrmas they won't be funded so much by the government though, they will be funded by non-profit social enterprise ventures.
The trick is matching of entrepenurial minds with those with a social conscience. A social enterprise is a mix of a solid business plan and a charitable cause with one of the two never superseding the other.

Examples please?

Alcibades,
A couple of examples are Pioneer Human Services in Seattle, Homeboy Industries in L.A., Delancey in San Fransisco.
Businesses run by addicts or gang members and the profits go to furthering the goals of the non profit. The particpants learn job skills and the society makes money.
Closer to home Cook Studio Cafe, Pacific Labour and Demolition and on and on.
Social Enterprise is in its infancy here, you will see it significantly more in the near future.

Thank you barryjo for your valuable, informed, innovative and reasoned contributions to this debate.

All parties involved need to listen to experienced perspectives.

The difficulties that you have struggled with to achieve your calm and now happy life are an hopefully an inspiration to others that are suffering.

Best wishes!

barryjo
Are they for profit or not?
Most social services in BC used to be run by the church. Churches all have agendas. How do these groups avoid that kind of thing?

I've looked at the website for Pioneer Human Services. They claim to help 6000 clients each year. They admit 11% of their clients fail or are asked to leave within the first 30 days. The only information about long-term success is from a sample of 402 former clients. Hardly enough information to make a real judgment.

It may be a good program, but it's impossible to tell from the posted data. They claim to employ 45 employees who spend about half of their time bidding for commercial work, such as plumbing and roofing jobs. I can't imagine private construction contractors would be very pleased with the competition since much of the funding appears to come from funds provided by Washington State work release payments of $18,359 per offender annually.

They claim to earn annual revenues of $52 million for a group of individual businesses with average annual returns of 13% so its a long way from non-profit.

This is all very laudable, but hardly an example of a true non profit operation.

Without more information it's not clear exactly how successful the program actually is or whether it is a useful model for anything other than a few addicts. Most of the clients appear to be diversions from the criminal justice system and not debilitated and health challenged street drug users.

Alciiades,
If you think Pioneer isn't a true non profit you are very mistaken. Non profits that use social enterprise put the profit back into the society, they are not allowed to use the profit for anything but the society and is still a non profit in every aspect.
If there is going to be any hope for change the whole community has to play a role. In Washington and now in Vancouver many private contractors are developing a social conscience and realize the good these programs do.
I have run a social enterprise in Vancouver here for over fourteen years and we get a lot of support from private contracors. In fact, contractors have noted the work ethic of some of my guys and asked about the possibility of hiring that person as an apprentice.
Your statement " 'whether it is a useful model for anything other than a few addicts".
I suggest if you are seriously interested, which I doubt it appears you would rather debate, go down there and talk to the people involved thats waht I did. And thats what I'm doing next week in L.A. with Homeboy Industries.
Also you should understand, it doesn't matter so much if the person is an addict with criminal justice issues or if they are in a gang, the most important piece of the puzzle is how you get them to have a paridigm shift in thinking. You can pick program after program apart because this one doesn't do that or I don't see this but a site visit for a couple of days will tell you if it works, you get a feel for what is going on.

barryjo

Don't get me wrong, I said that I couldn't evaluate the program on the basis of the information provided. It may be wonderful but it doesn't appear to me to be directed mainly at helping the kind of physical derelicts who are, sadly, in a lot of cases, the kind of people Berner's piece is nominally talking about. In fact, I’m not actually convinced that the kind of thing Berner says he pioneered so successfully would work in the DTES either.

I think that getting former addicts involved in helping people find ways to change their lives is a positive idea and one that government ought to be supporting so I'm not against the concept - I just need more real data to evaluate what is going on. I've actually seen the 4 pillars progress report and I think, in terms of getting addicts off drugs, that it is not successful in more than a handful of cases - at least not so far.

Alcibiades,
The therapeautic value of one addict helping the ohter is without parallel in the fight to get addicts to come into recovery.
When an addict can see someone as addicted as they were doing well, it gives them a sense of hope that maybe it is possible for them too.
I have been researching various concepts and models for over twelve years and programs that have addicts helping one another fare better overall.
I was one of those physical derelicts you speak of, addicted for 27 years, hep C for thirty four years now, was skin and bone sleeping wherever on the street. I have witnessed many who were even worse off than me get clean and stay clean.
Most of these successes are addicts helping others.
Its sad that most of the money being spent in Vancouver is going to addicts helping addicts find out where they can get free clnical heroin trial dope, Methadone or where the safe injection site is.
Sam Sullivan believes addicts have a disbility, he actually is convinced that their disability the same is his, and they can't overcome it, in spite of the fact that many, many of us stay clean.
Because of all the services provided in Vancouver to enable addiction and with our warm climate, many of the street people I talk to tell me they come here for that. We are becoming a mecca for those seeking to live in addiction, with the least amount of inconvience
i.e. drug supply,nice weather, tons of non profits downtown with everyhting from free food to lodging.
Too bad, soooo sad.

barryjo
I suspect different things will work for different people - or at least can have a chance of working. There's no doubt a lot of the volunteer stuff isn't much more than do-gooders and the board of the Vancouver Foundation trying to make themselves feel better. Sullivan's nominal humanitarianism does seem a little pale in light of the fact that the city is busy closing down many SRO hotels without some clean safe environment for the evicted residents to move into.
I'd be interested to know what you think is the minimal three or four elements of a program that might be more successful in actually giving some of the DTES residents a fighting chance at fashioning a healthier happier life.

G. West,
To give the residents down there a fighting chance for a better life would require a mutli level social enterprise intitative. This would also support a revitalization of the DTES.
The first level would be low threshold where you would basically meet the participants where they are at. It could be a ligth manufactruing or recycling initiative whre it wouldn't be a big deal if Joe/Jill didn't show up for work or if they had a work related issue and needed some time out. The sole purpose would be to get them involved at whatever level they were capable of and start an ongoing relationship with them. Some will start to get feelings of worthfulness and perhaps the door in the mind will open enough to let them start to ponder the notion that they can be a productive member of society.
For them the next level would involve another social enterprise with more responsibilty for them as well as an entry level life skills component. At this point some will be feeling better about themselves and some might start to believe they can stop the drugs. There comes a point with added responsibilty that they will notice their drug use is a hinderance to them, some will consider quitting while others will try to use drugs and handle the added responsibilty together.
Eventually some will quit using and others that know them could be inspired because the mindset becomes they look like they are doing well, maybe I can do the same.
The next level would be include a bit more responsibilty and a more intense life skills course. This level could inspire others who know those who get to this level and know that they were as messed up as them, not that long ago.
By this time business people and trades companies would be invited to become social partners and interview and hire some of these folks as apprentices or whatever. And if they are hired the continum of support should continue and they should have mentors to be a support to them and be there for them, in times of difficulty or crisis.
This is a very simplistic layout of a complex project and there can be many variables involved.
Fast Track to Employment and BOB (Building Opoortunities for Busness) are attempting to support non profits and individuals who want to do something similar to what I laid out.
Anything like this has to be spearheaded by an individual with a keen business sense and a very big and charitable heart.
For fourteen years I have ran a social enterpise and it is a tricky balance between wanting the best for those you are helping and trying to keep a business financially successful.
It has to be a combination of a charitable cause and a business plan and I have found when one becomes more dominant it has a negative effect on the whole enterprise. So its a bit of a struggle but when you see peoples lives positively changed, afmilies get back together etc. it is so worth it.

barryjo
If I could put you in touch with someone who knows the ins and outs of the 4 pillars thing in its present configuration, would you be prepared to make a presentation and talk to someone my friend might be able to steer you towards?

I'm going a bit out on a limb here since I haven't told the person I know I'm doing this. She may (for reasons I'd have to accept as reasonable even if I didn't agree with them), tell me this is just not on. Still, if you're actually interested in pursuing this further, let me know and we'll see what happens.

Of course, if you’ve already tried to contact them and been frustrated or put off, this may just be idle speculation on my part.

G. West,
I am always willing to talk to folks about addiction and recovery, I have done a lot of public speaking on the subject of drugs and recovery. Example, in 2004 at the 12TH annual British Columbia Probabtion Officers Association Justice Conference (Caught in the Web) at the R.C.M.P. training academy in Chilliwack I was asked to speak about drugs, recovery and youth.
I don't know a lot but I know first hand about addiction and recovery and I have been working with addicted populations for a long time.
Most folks, however,that have been indoctrinated by the harm reduction message really aren't all that openminded when it comes to recovery. They don't believe addicts can recover in spite of the fact that many do.
What is needed is some innovative, out of the box programing that would provide a continum of support for the addicts right from detox until they are well settled in the community and steadily employed or in school.
Until such a program exists, recovery rates will remain low.
I'll be in L.A. from April 26- May 2 meeting with some folks about a program that is doing s fantastic job with hardcore gang members (Homeboy-Industries, but I would be glad to do a presentation when I return, just let me know. My office number is (604) 529-1011

what you know,may,or,may not be,addiction and if properly educated,probably,defined/assessed asA DEPEDANCY.

WHEN PEOPLE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE,WE CAN STOP ,WASTING,TIME AND MONEY...and I won't even get into the wasted lives of all concerned.

then again,money has to be made somewhere,if SOCIETY IS TO BE SERVED[B].

haraldkann,
You mention money being made over and over. It is almost unheard of to have a business like I do that employs only addicts looking to better themselves with no government funding.
I DON'T DO IT FOR MONEY. I do it because I care and I want to be able to make a difference.
You seem to have a lot to discuss, let me know where and when and I'll meet you for a coffee or whatever.

The timing for the right people to come together might be now. Today on page 1, the Vancouver Sun reports that the mayor has been offered $500,000 by an individual to try and bring a useful programme into being.

barryjo
Got it. Thanks. I'll contact you after May 2 and in the meantime will discuss the general idea with my friend.
have a good trip to LA and back.
GW

more fuel for the fire

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060423/sc_nm/science_choice_dc_2

studies and paperwork are the foundation for thought

And something for the crazy shopper too!
Ain't science wonderful?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2147760,00.html

same study,different writers,interesting ?

Had a friend who worked on the DTES who siad -- by my recollection -- that Safe Injection Sites have a 12% rate of success.

It might seem crass, but I wonder if the budget justifies the number of successes?

I guess I'm not Judeo/Christian enough.

I know I'm more forgiving than the germans I used to call relatives.

It might seem crass, but I wonder if the budget justifies the number of successes?

and one of the many offerings from verifiable sources,not the crap frm BERNER or other posters who offer hyperbole and anectdotes ...

http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/29/4/126

you can GOOGLE and get real info from anywhere faster and with reliable test results than it takes to read the bullshit articles by BERNER

something the TYEE should have done before paying for DRIVEL ...

"I ,been there, done that,you cannot tell me SQUAT ."

Wow, to be accused as a know-it-all by you haraldkann is rare praise indeed. Pot, meet kettle.

p.s. space goes after the comma. But you knew that.

stump sez ...

haraldkann sez ... In this format...I,could care less,I,LEAVE THAT FOR THE ANAL RETENTIVE LIKE YOU .

Nothing of import to post ? Try making some friends if you are not to busy with your lifes work here correcting CYBER CRAP ...

I am still waiting for that HACK BERNER to supply us with FACTS.

HE SEZ,HE DID THESE THINGS...but,i can't find any licenses for any housing/ADDICTION SERVICES,anything in his name...either in WINNEPEG OR VANCOUVER .

SO WHAT'S THE STORY,BERNER ? RUNNING IT OUT OF MOMMY'S GARAGE ARE WE ?

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:DtIQBGYKXscJ:www.library.ubc.ca/archives/pdfs/ubyssey/UBYSSEY_1970_03_10.pdf+company+of+young+canadians+david+berner+berner+%22company+of+young+canadians%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4

THE ONLY THING FOUND CONCERNING ARTICLE ...

this is the kind of parasite that feeds of the weak minded ...

: haraldkannposted: 1 Minute Agohttp://www.bhf.ca/history.htm

Quote:
1981 - Programs were undergoing reviews by senior staff as we moved away from the "my way or out you go" mentality of the seventies. We initiated a formal 90-day interview goal orientated process for residents preparing to go to school or to enter the work force.

Seems Berner was one of those on a power trip and the only two interesting benchmarks during his EMPLOYMENT/HE WAS SALERIED...WAS PHILIP J DICK'S STAY AND MONEY MISMANAGEMENT...
LINKS HERE...

http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly

Quote:
After delivering "The Android and the Human", Dick became a participant in X-Kalay (a Canadian Synanon-type recovery program), effortlessly convincing program caseworkers that he was nursing a heroin addiction to do so. This is portrayed in his 1988 book The Dark-Haired Girl (a collection of letters and journals from this general period, most of an achingly romantic nature). Presumably, this is a source for the vividness and accuracy with which the novelistic clinic is portrayed. It was at X-Kalay, while doing publicity for the facility, that he devised the notion of rehab centers being used to secretly harvest drugs (later extrapolated upon in the novel).

http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/HANSARD/...0315a.htm#01222

Quote:
I refer to the X-Kalay Foundation, which last submitted an annual report on June 28, 1971. It received something like $11,000 a month from the provincial government, and, as I understand it, has been in a considerable amount of financial difficulty.

So ,we got POWER TRIPS , MONEY DISAPPEARING AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE ... SOME GREAT EXAMPLE DAVID BERNER TROTS OUT...SMALL WONDER HE DID NOT OFFER UP ANY ...FACTS

Stump sez:

People that constantly refer to themselves in the third person are usually self-important blowhards. You've done nothing to disavow me of that notion haraldkann. Stop yelling at people, act civil, and maybe something you say might be taken seriously. As it stands, you're coming off like an idiot. Is that the impression your trying to create?

stump sez ...

hk sez ...

And my submissions of your ANAL RETENTIVE CAPACITIES still stand stumpy go get some fresh air , get a life ...I remember you saying you have a few bicycles , have you learned how to ride yet ?

This is ,as posted by many,A FREE FORUM OF THOUGHT,NOT A STUDY PAPER FOR THE ANAL RETENTIVES TO KORRECKT, HERR STUMPY

As to how i come off , I don't care ... read , don't read , I am not going to lose any sleep over some CYBER DISCUSSION/DEBATE .

And , i always liked that he sez ,she sez,they sed and I finally sed ...

Bite me stump !

stump sez ...

then stump sez ...

then I sez ...

heh...heh...heh...U is sech a kard stumpy
Even I cannot get that holier than thou then again you are a BERNER FAN trying to take a bullet for your man,aint ya dude .

Regardless the evidence of BERNER'S propensity to BULL$H!T is evident .

As I have submitted,addicts need real help,not self serving empty rhetoric that feeds on their misery .

Right on HeraldKann!

For more on who Berner is, read another of his articles on Tyee entitled "The Rabbi's Plugged In," in which he brags about calling in the Hell's Angels to deal with some small time drug dealers in front of his business.

Here is a real giggle,from that mental midget david berner...

READ THAT AGAIN...But, here they are, joined by modern technology, doing Good and doing Not So Good. Consulting their I-pods and to spread their distant gospels.

Whut duz it take in this day and age to PROOF READ A STORY...hey BEERS ... ya like throwing around money ...

You have POSTERS that WRITE better than that HACK ,DAVID BERNER .

Calling the Hell's Angels,means KNOWING THE PHONE NUMBERS OF CRIMINALS...HOW WOULD...DECENT FOLK ...KNOW THOSE NUMBERS...EH ?

no proof reading , no common sense , just BULL$H!T ...