Damn! I thought for sure that I had the italics thing figured out. Oh well.

While I agree Chretien bungled the 1995 referendum, one has to give him credit for championing the Clarity Act in 1999. Wouldn't this attempt to create a legal framework for the referendum count as referring "the legality of the process" to the courts?

If Quebec goes and it will given enough chances, what will happen then? Canada will demand a land bridge connecting to the Maritimes. The various native tribes will want to stay with the Federal government, mainly because that's where the money comes from. New Foundland and Labrodour will demand all those Quebec power dams in their territory, in fact they may well demand a lot of Northern Quebec.

The West will demand a new deal, anarchy will reign supreme because our present political parties are so bloddy clueless about the situation.

Canada may invove itself in a bloddy civil was abetted by France and the USA. Ethnic cleansing will be a fact of life- bye,bye to aboriginal title. BC and Alberta may very well leave as well, washing their hands of the mess.

Don't believe me? Just wait!

The problem is that it would cut off NB, NS and to a great extent Nfld, virtually throwing them into the hands of US annexation. This would give the green light for Bible belt Alberta separatists, like both of the Mannings, father and son, to start campaigning to join God's country to the South. This would cut off BC, with also a large content of business separatists, also urging to join the USA, as the road to "wealth and prosperity". In short, Quebec separation would mean the end of Canada and the final stage for the establishment of the US Empire of Manifest Destiny. To hell with that !

Personally, I'd prefer to live my life out as a Canadian. So, what is the solution to pacify Quebec to remain in Confederation and so save Canada ?
Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I personnally see nothing wrong in a massive decentralization of Ottawa powers into the provincial legislatures. No this is not selling out to the US "taking us over".

Ottawa is broken beyound belief and there is no credible federal political party ready to carry on. I would much rather fight canadian sovereignty while breathing on my Premier's neck) from 10 different legislatures than from a central one of incompetent clowns. I would love to see a federal Canadian Sovereingty party that commits to dismantling the central state. Call it étapisme. In a very ironic way, the PQ was successful in doing just this democratically (Lévesque was the first one ever to clean up political parties financing!) and perhaps the ROC needs to give it a second look. Ottawa to me looks like false nostagia of our former british colony days. The country must further decentralize in order to survive. The feds are in a conflict of interest to do just that. BTW, as a gaulois, I have lived in Western Canada for over 25 years and consider myself a full fledge Westerner.

Why the failure to consider Aboriginal Nations as a part of Canada and the constitutional process? Elijah Harper ring any bells? Doesn't the existence of First Nations in Quebec suggest problems considering this in binary terms only?

I see no help from the courts given that if a province decides to leave Canada what difference does it make what a Canadian court says? Would Canada then send in its army and fight a civil war just to uphold a court decision and force people to remain Canadian? Would Canada call for UN troops for support or just US troops?

Despite Quebec separatism, the greatest risk to Canada is "deep integration" and the fact our corrupt politicians are already owned by profiteering corporate capitalists. The greatest risk to the Western provinces is the corrupt opportunists who govern in the interest of corrupt CEOs and multinational profits.

Davey-Boy wrote:

What about a nine member country with 50% of the population residing in Ontario? Federal governance would require radical changes to ensure regional representation. Not easy....

I lost my first post, so here it goes again.

Canada is unraveling because forces for neo-liberal economics, both within, such as The Fraser Institute etal, and without, are manipulating our prejudices and natural vulnerabilities to promoting regionalism in order to weaken our democracy and steal our assets and resources.

They have convinced our politicians by corruption, indoctrination, or both, to betray our country and Canadians.

That is the real issue. A massive betrayal of a people and of democracy. Sure will be nice when the mainstream media finally starts talking about it and our politicians finally start taking direct action against it. It will happen, eventually. Of course, our assets will be cleaned out by then.

trudeaumania = the beginning of the end.

redrivergirl makes a really good point about regionalism (as promoted by neo-liberal economic groups such as the Fraser Institute and crew) being used as a constant wedge to disturb our democracy and to ultimately work against it. They play Canada into foreign hands through their endless disparaging pitch that the cards we hold as a country are not worth much and so work constantly to betray our genuinely royal flush hand by selling us out.

This is where I disagree with Rafe on western alienation, it is largely part of this same tired card game that the Fraser Institute types like to play. Canadians have a lot stronger feelings towards this country then we are given credit for... and though the west can sometimes whine, Canada, comes first in the hearts of many of us. Loyalty and love of our country comes first. And I am not talking about a kind of american patriotism... but a quieter, stronger and often unspoken bond.

Look at the results of Romanov's Royal Commission on medicare, across this country Canadians supported this most Canadian of our institutions, the belief in it like a railway that binds. Then look at who is most intent on selling off our health system to privatization - as symbolical a move as our railways disappearing into foreign hands...it's the same neo-cons-neo-libs...all really the same gang of rustlers...all wearing the same black hats.

Mr. Mair must be aware that Canada as a member of the UN has signed on to a charter that respects a people's right to self-determination.

But that is bluster because the Canadian state doesn't even respect the Original Peoples' right in this regard on their own territory.

hey, it is quite obvious for all to see that the current set of legal relations that constitute Canada have disempowered many regions and peoples of this country. What we have in Ottawa is highly centralized political power in the PMO's office, an entrenced group of senior, elitistt bureaucrats, an outdated division of powers - between provinces and the federal government, with nothing there for cities and rural regions of the country, a farcical unelected senate, First Nations sitting on the outside...on top of which is layered cronyism and corruption ---ALL OF WHICH comprise the Canadian capitalist state established to essentially sell whatever natural resources can be sold to Captain American and its permanent and unsustainable war economy. We have, or soon will lose what little soverignty we have left at the hands of the 'deep integrationist/ continentalists"....why in God's name would Quebecers want to remain part of that 'ship' is beyond me. Indeed, unless we want more of the same elitist executive dysfunctional federalist pablum, it is high time the people of Canada & Quebec wake up, empower themselves...and demand a Citizen's constitutional constituent assembly ...elected by pro rep, with guaranteed seats for First Nations, and parity between women & men at the table, and a place at the table for non-provincial forces.. No back-room boys - deal-making Premiers and only a small proportion of MP's should be involved in that process -most MP's have vested interests in the current set of legal relations that provides them their pensions, high tax-free salaries, and sundry other benefits, including an inside door to corporate Canada board rooms once they leave Parliament. What is going down, and Raif is right in that regard...are the 'existing set of elitist, colonial, ultra-centrist legal relations' that comprise this country...and I say...so be it...we will reconstitute ourselves...but if we want a better democracy...the power elites better be cut out of the deal-making and citizens & independent media better get reporting and discussing these matters...or the issue will hit slumbering Canada from the backside. bcpolitics.ca/peter dimitrov

Rafe Mair makes excellent points, but it's odd that he missed a big one: 158,427 Québecois voted NDP last June, 108,660 Green, and 301,539 Conservative, tgether more than the 460,435 BC voters who voted NDP. Without influence? Without seats in the House, yes, thanks to our skewed voting system, as Rafe Mair knows as well as anynone. If they had 12 MPs between them as they should, would he say they were without influence? Especially considering that polls in Quebec show federalist voters switching to the NDP and the Conservatives, not to the Bloc. Quebec has alternatives, if we would just let them vote for them.

Lynn

You are so right on with your comments in my opinion.

Rafe's been hammering away at this wedge for nigh on 20 years now. Now and then something pops up somewhere that he thinks will grease it a little so he whacks away at it again for a while.

Rafe has very little regard for this country. Never has had. He's like Harper that way. Thinks the place is a third rate socialist state and the people are fat, lazy and stupid. And only he, Rafe Mair, can possibly save it from itself.

It's time to retire the hot air balloon Rafe. Really, it is.

Go fishing. Take Wendy on a long round the world trip and enjoy yourself.

It may well be that this country needs an enema. And while it might be difficult in the short term, yes vote may be just the ticket. I watched a fair measure of the Lisa Moore documentary on Newsworld the other night - it compared the progress of Newfoundland and Iceland since the 40s. The implication was that Newfoundland would be a lot better off as an independant country, as Iceland has been since 1944. Although they are similarly sized rocks floating our there in the North Atlantic, there is in m view a great deal of difference between the two places, and the documentary was really rather superficial. More of the same old "woe-is-me-what could- have-been jig" from St.John's. Still, there is discontent with the state of the nation out there too. And in Nova Scotia - a province that started regreting signing on about 8minutes fater the deal was done. There are many contented Canucks in P.E.I. Oh, and Kingston Ontario too. Elsewhere I'm not so sure.

I suspect that if Quebec voted for independance the federation would fall apart in short measure. Eventually I suppose some new co-operative arrangement would emerge, negotiated in the context of reality rather than hypothesis and blather as has been our recent constitutional history.

If anyone is interested today June 20th on Lou Dobbs on CNN he has a great segment with Bill Moyers as his guest telling the truth about what's happening in America and if the Campbells and the Fraser Institue will happen in Canada or already is. I think Bill Moyers is probably one of the finest and most patriotic Americans living today, and I wish we had someone like him to speak up for Canada's unity and greatness insstead of the constant critism and fuel for its disintegration.

I have heard Rafe say he doesn't want the country to break up and yet all he does is rail against Ontario and Quebec and Ottawa using editorials deliberately fueling anger and divisivness and encouraging western alienation. Another thing is his favor of STV voting method and using his show to promote it - then we hear Michael Campbell talking about getting STV through as a good way to get a Separation Party started - so what's that all about?

Come to think about it I can't remember Rafe ever saying anything positive or favorable about Canada, or any government so I'll be interested in seeing what his solution is.

ps - with all his whinging about being shortchanged all the time I never heard ONE word about all the trips Martin made to BC this year and all the money he through at BC in an effort to improve relations. No - dead silence on that and Campbell took the credit for the economy using the federal money that came our way.
Ahh well.......

We need an overhauled constitution and real leadership to bring it about. There are many of us who care about Canada but don`t know how to go about reforming the political structure. Perhaps Rafe will be one of those people who can and will show true leadership - we`ll need him and many more like him to save this country.

First consider what this country will look like without Quebec. That`s a good starting point. The provinces have more cultural powers but the feds have more monetary powers. I`m more of a federalist myself.

Now consider the alternatives, Gordo as president? along with Ralph, McGuinty and all the others. One of those interesting countries is Slovakia - why did they separate? Personal ego and nothing else. We could easily go the same route.

Oh, if we separated all the dynamics would change and without a mitigating federal governement most would vote 'left'.

Re STV, check out Gordon Gibson's pro STV articles at the Fraser Institute website. Yes, the same Gordon Gibson involved in the socalled independent citizen's assembly. lol
Yet another scam brought to you by Campbell and crew.

Politicians have been using 'Western Alienation' for years to get elected and for political traction. It's a new low as the invaders use it against us.

Quebec may vote to separate but when push comes to separate I believe they will have a very hard time walking away from Canada. Like a rich couple divorcing, too costly for both sides.

If Canada was the country it could and should be, neither Quebec nor the west would be considering leaving. It's not. As for those posters that think there's no basis for seperatism in the west you'd better take another look. We can get very tired of being ridiculed by people with their heads in the sand. It's long been obvious that all central Canada wants from the west is our money. For most of confederation, it's all gone one way.

Western aleniation is little more than artificially created hype and propaganda by a special interest sector bent to have Canada broken up and annexed by the USA.

A good number of those MPs in Ottawa are from the West, so, what are they doing there? They represent not much more than a lunatic fringe of Reform/Alliance/Conservatives, or whatever they call themselves today, bent on the same purpose by their great leaders like Manning and Harper.

Ontario and Quebec may have more weight, because they have more people and in a democracy it is the number of people who cast their votes for their own benefit. Even as it is, the benefits from Western resources are not feeding Central Canada, but far more into the bank accounts of mostly US based multinational gangsters, stealing us blind. If the West would separate, it would be a free for all for them to colonize us completely, with the jubilating approval of our so called "Conservatives" and "Prestigious conservative economic think tanks", like the Fraser Institute, nothing more than an pro US, neocon advertising agency. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

In my view it is not as much about Quebec of the West "leaving" ..but about the need for new "legal relations" betwen that which comprises Canada. The provinces under the current system perhaps have too big a role...and what is especially missing in additon to First Nations, are the voices of municipalities and cities...all creatures of the province...with zero constititutional rights or competencies. Also, the entire fiscal framework needs to be re-worked...way, way too much tax money flows to Ottawa...and the budgeting process is entirely 'autocratic'....no sense of 'participatory budgeting' at all. So, Raif's article in my view doesn't at all address this concept of legal relations.

Talking about Western aleniation and corruption. Parliament is going to sit through the summer, because the Western MPs of the great leader Harper want to stop a $4.6 billion benefit package included in the budget going to Canadians, instead of to their favourite big business friends. US multinationals need it far more than the people of Canada.

The Liberals only handed out $200. million to their friends, bringing crocodile tears into the eyes of the Conservatives, but they applaud when Campbell hands $2. billion every year to his friends and want Ottawa to do much better, so they stay and demand more and more.

Of course, there's also the non issue of the same sex marriage to be fought for months..

Who the hell cares? A civil marriage is nothing more than a contract, and nobody's forcing Churches to marry gays, so what ? Ed Deak, Big Lake.

lots of people in the west say, "go, good riddance", but they have no idea. It is just a spur of the moment reaction.
There are lots of quebec people all over canada. Many who dont speak french anymore. One thing they bring with them is a very varied culture and that enriches everyone. Western alienation is real but it probably started as a slogan in a magazine.
I know newfoundlanders who are highly insulted by how the rest of canada sees them and would happily succeed from canada.
As Wilf Day says, there are plenty of hidden ndp, conservative and green voters in Quebec.
Any form of proportional representation would give them voice and probably help quebec stay part of canada.
I am getting sick of people relating stv to gordon gibson.
That is too stupid for words. I used it for years before i came to canada. It works just fine and it was around before he was born.
The guy who really did the most to convince the CA that STV was best for bc was Julian West, who gave one of the final presentations. He is a mathematician and he also works for the NDP!
Anyway, if people got the representation they actually voted for, there would be a liberal-NDP coalition right now. Stephen hareer wouldnt even get a look in. I personally dont care what electoral system quebec gets as long as it is proportional.
Same with the other provinces. Almost any system is a lot better than first past the post. The key to keeping canada together is proportional representation.
It is more likely to keep the leaders honest.
Martin is a lost cause and he has no clue what democracy is. And the liberals should dump him. Harper is worse. Divide an conquor is his way. He wants to form a majority government on less than 40% of the vote and he has a decent chance of succeeding. What an odd way to run a country.

It would be very easy to lose patience with fiat lux. Is Big Lake in Ontario? Come on, Ed - think for 10 or 15 seconds before your next response.

The western alienation/seperatism I'm familiar with has nothing to do with a move to the U.S. The big irritant is lack of representation.

I would see proportional representation as a red herring offered up by frustrated members of small parties unable to elect members. It will further disenfranchise people outside the big centres.

The present system or proportional representation would work for a country the size of Lichtenstein, but are disfunctional for a country as big as Canada. What's needed is a second house that's regional to deal with the concerns of the people who live away from the centre.

Even at a Provincial level, the larger provinces are poorly served by the single house dominated by the big population centres.

There's very little that's attractive about dictatorship no matter who's doing it to you.

You might be surprised how many people would at least take a look at separation here in the west. It deserves rational discussion, not a thoughtless rant.

For the record, I've been living in BC for 50 years, 24 years in Vancouver, 26 in the Cariboo, a registered voter for 49. I'm also a British trained intelligence analyst and a close observer of the political trends, with a long paper trail in BC, anti free trade, advocating democracy and self sufficiency.

Western aleniation is mostly a red herring, used and exploited by opportunists like Preston Manning. When he was raising his head in these parts with his Reform hysteria, a lot of people were saying that "The trouble with Canada is that we have too much freedom. What we need is a benevolent dictatorship and Preston will give it to us". We had letters in our local papers openly threatening "Indians, gays and socialists, when we take over". We had militias being organized with Chinese made assault weapons, that may still be hidden in the woods, waiting for " Preston to give the signal". Yes, the RCMP knew about it, also the names of the organizers, usually fundamantalist religious maniacs of Manning's creed, and the financial backers, because they were talking out in the open. The whole thing died down and went very silent with the Oklahoma City bombings, but the people are still around, quietly fomenting hysteria, now for Harper, using the gay marriage excuse. I'm not suggesting that Manning may have been behind this madness, I give him that much credit for brains, but such actions showed what kind of people he and Western aleniation was and still is attracting.

If people in the West feel under represented, they should demand their rights. Perhaps your idea of another level of government is the answer. But would people put up with it, when the scream is for "less government" ? It is pretty obvious that the main aim of Western separatists is not independence, but to join the USA. This area is solid "right wing" fundamentalist, Reform country. After all these years everybody knows everybody. I've been talking to many over the years and the answer is usually "I wouldn't have any problem with joining the US !"

Does anybody know who takes more out of BC ? The federal governemnt, or the multinationals ?
There are no such figures available from StasCan. So why don't we hear complaints against the corporations stealing our wealth ?

You'll have to forgive me if I take Western aleniation with a large pinch of salt. There's always some special interest group behind such ideas, as is behind the concentration of powers in hands anywhere. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

On the quick, I pretty much disagree with Rafe entirely on this one.

First, what we have, which both Trudeau and Mulroney danced around, is a general failure across the "Canadian State and populace outside Quebec", to recognize that we are a "confederal" state, not a "federal" one. And for that failure, recognized at the time of confederation, but over subsequent history as a result of the military sugjugation of Quebec and its unequal status within what came to be, we have had a troubled and deteriorating state of relationship between the two "founding nations" to the Canadian "Confederation". (Folks really do need to understand this difference between a "federation" and a "confederation", for without it, especially in Anglo-Canada, Quebec, in my view, will eventually be driven out as a consequence of our own (anglo) intransigence.

So, my starting point is that Canada is, in fact, a "confederation" of "two nations" within "one state". Then, within that, each has whatever other provincial or regional "sub-divisions" as they may have historically chosen to create. (Not unlike current Scotland and England, within current Great Britain.A model we might wish to study.)

And because we, again, especially in Anglo-Canada have failed to understand this "two nation reality within one confederal state" concept, we have failed to properly and adequately resolve the precise two nation within one state dimensions and character of our two nation union, which Quebec is fair begging us to do, and periodically threatening us over, short of outright separation, and will do eventually in my view. Instead, we continue to intransigently insist that Quebec is merely a "province" like any other, rather than a distinct nation, one of two, within a Confederal Canadian State.

All of this is being compounded in our current Neoconazi times by social and economic policies coming out of the ruling class and the anglo-dominant Canadian State which, as Redrivergirl and Lynn correctly point to, I think, which are serving to exacerbate not only class and and all other internal relationships within Canada, such as with our Aboriginal Peoples, and to drive divisive wedges into all our "potential" fracture lines, which includes Alberta, to my mind, but to further deepen the divisions between the two founding nations to Canada as well.

And I do not think we should continue to fool ourselves. If we do not turn soon enough away from this Neoconazi, national chauvanist and racist direction of development, we are not only setting ourselves up for deteriorating class and Native race relations within this country, but we are also going to leave Quebec no other than the "separatist" choice, and we are going to drive other potential Balkanized/Provincial-centric parts of Canada, such as Alberta, and likely even the Maritimes, into the arms of the USA. (Making ourselves more vulnerable to an eventual US absorption.)

It is time we all, in my view, smartened up, turned away from national chauvanisms, cut a new "two nation within one state" deal with Quebec, rejected the social harm and divisiveness of Neoconazi-capitalist economic and social policy, asserted our national state independence in our economic and political relations with the US, and embarked on a course of first, enhanced economic self-sufficiency-, to underpin and strengthen the two nation Canadian State and the harmony producing well-being of its, in fact, THREE founding peoples; Natives, Quebecers, and Anglo-Canadians, with ALL the other blended "immigrant" elements which have modified all three.

Doomsday predictors such as Rafe always have to take as their starting point that Canada is a finished piece of work. That stasis has been reached. That everything that can be done has been done and that history has somewhow closed the file on the creation, or if you'd rather - re-creation, of this confederation.

Even a cursory backward glance demonstrates that any such presumption is erroneous at best and downright foolish at worst.

I much initially agree with Fiat Lux above, as well. Perhaps I can read his views at greater length and respond more later.

One thing that never seems to get mentioned regarding Quebec, is the youth aren't big separatists.
Separatism is seen as an old man's way of thinking by young Quebecois. Because of this the chance of them separating is fairly slim.

It is Stephane Dion who deserves credit for the Clarity Act.
Let's remember that average Quebecers have a different idea about independence than the elites. A clear question will focus the referendum campaign and it will be harder for the elites to manipulate the debate. Quebecers support separatism less and less the more they find out what independence from Canada really means.
Western separation is equivalent to annexation by the United States. The most vocal Western voice, the Conservatives, espouses American ideas, ie. mixing state business with religion, joining illegal wars, and adopting the US dollar. Fortunately, the Clarity Act applies to any party wanting to remove a province from Canada.

Neither are they big federalists either. On average however they remain more separatist than federalist. Their youth is about as disenchanted as ours.

Do not underestimate the impact of the new arts scene with groups like Loco-Locas and Les Cowboy Fringants. These groups are certainly not federalist and are heavy into independance. If Quebec does not separate, it will have more to do with the Walmart consumerism culture that also threathens them.

"If Quebec does not separate, it will have more to do with the Walmart consumerism culture that also threathens them."

That was what we always used to say, "What the hell is separation going to do to help preserve the culture?"

Unless the separate and become a cambodian-like state, there's no way they can fend it off.

It's heartening to read many of these comments and a really excellent piece by Coyote especially in regards to the real meaning of confederation. What I like the most about his piece is it is, in the end, such a strong, hopeful take on the idea of strengthening, in reality, our "three nation state"... rather than the constant negative natterings of the neocons who are determined to bring us down, in order to sell us out.

Which of course is the neoconazis modus operandi when it comes to privatization...this time their scheme just applied on a national scale to divide this country...whatever you want to sell out make it appear unsustainable, inefficient, and unprofitable... in effect a worthless Canada...then keep repeating the propaganda until enough people believe the lies to make them so...meanwhile underfund our important structures and withdraw critically needed support...weaken and de-stablize... to the point that their waiting pet vultures have an easy and docile meal to consume at their own pleasure.

Banquos ghost makes a very good point as well, Canada ain't perfect but it also ain't no finished piece of work. There is much hope for our country in that belief... IF we can prevent those who would all too easily rip us apart from doing so.

Thank you, Ed. I guess it depends on your exposure. I haven't encountered that broad a idiot fringe here on the Queen Charlotte Islands. Likewise, federally I didn't see the second house as another level of government - I liked the elected senate, because we're already paying for it and getting very little return. Provincially, it would need a lot of thought.

I don't think there's a moment's doubt that the multinationals take more from us than the feds, and if you were here you'd be hearing a lot of it. We've had a number of years of the major timber licencees like Weyerhaueser taking our resources away and leaving very little opportunity or benefit in our community.

This is an area where both the feds and the province have totaly failed. It's also obvious that neither level is even concerned, and this has not changed markedly with the appearance of Gordon Campbell - only that things have gotten a lot worse for wage earners.

I was in Alberta for the National Energy Policy, and I was in Saskatchewan long enough to see the effects of the wheat board and the end of the Crow Rate. Any of those, if you think about them, would make you at least examine the seperation option - and I say again that the seperatist movement I'm aware of has no plans to join the U.S. Especially not after the Byrd Ammendment and the softwood tarriffs.

Anyway, thank you for your response. I'm sure we could better solve the world's problems over a cup of coffee.

Actually gang, the youth don't vote. They don't care, they don't get involved and they won't participate in any numbers to amount to a damn anyway.
That's why the greens and NDP fail at the polls all the time. They, especially the greens, cannot get the full support of thinking adults, so they stretch out to the dumb ass kids and fail there.
In my zeal to extend an olive branch of compromise to those of you who are die hard lefties, I have failed to see that you people are no different that the separtist zealots of Queer-bec, who simply won't quit no matter what!
You cannot compromise and you cannot reason rationally.
have a day.

'Die hard lefty' has become to mean 'loyal Canadian'. Or, perhaps, in reality it is the opposite. 'Loyal Canadian' has become to mean 'die hard lefty'.

"In my zeal to extend an olive branch of compromise to those of you who are die hard lefties, I have failed to see that you people are no different that the separtist zealots of Queer-bec, who simply won't quit no matter what!
You cannot compromise and you cannot reason rationally.
have a day."

IT's the conservatives that haven't given up with their lame attempts to take power.. and they fail miserably every time. Even today in BC, they are DOWN in the polls. Any other opposition party in the world coulda turned the Gomery inquiry into a success. But the COns are so dumb they can't even manage that.

freebc your party seems to have a problem getting the full support of thinking adults, most of us have a pretty good idea what the right wing is all about and chose not to support them.

If the conservatives under harper offered a rational alternative to the liberals I believe he would be our PM instead they scare us with their pro american right wing christian rhetoric hidden under a veil of deceit so they do not get our support, I despise harper!

Jack Layton fights for the underdog not the corporations and I like that, I despise our premier for giving a tax break to the upper income earners and at the expense of the elderly and poor.

Paul martin has been attacking our social programs and giving to the rich for years now and people like harper applaud this while our Cities fall apart hospitals close and working mothers cannot afford decent accomodation. This is what you support! You must be all for two tier health care as well eh, all this on a cabbies wages, that makes a lot of sense!

Yup I am a loyal Canadian who has a lot of family buried in Europe fighting for this country so the likes of harpy martin and gordo can give it to the corporations, I don't think so!!!

Coyote, looking strictly at the legal relations between the provinces and Ottawa, as well as looking at the fiscal/taxation arrangements, I sorry to say Coyote but we presently have a federal state and NOT a confederation. By defination federalism (from the Latin word covenant) is a system of government in which power is distributed by constitutional right between national and local units of government in various regions of a country. On the other hand a Confederation- which we don't presently have in Canada when one regards the existing 'legal relations' - relations which are highly dysfunctional- a Confederation is an association of sovereign states..a confederation is usually created by treaty but tend to later adopt a constitution. Sovereign states within a confederation tend to keep various sovereign powers while delegating such matters as defense, foreign affairs, foreign trade, and a common currency to the centre - being a government required to provide support for all sovereign members.

Certainly Coyote and I have on many previous occassions agreed on the terrible dysfunctional status of the current 'rule-making' 'set-up' that privileges Capital over Labor, that tends towards continentalist/deep integration with Captain America, that disempowers via executive federalism the peoples and regions of this country --we indeed do need to revitalize this democracy...but it does us all no good if we mix up the meanings of 'federalism' and 'confederation'--lets get it straight--where we are at now--is crony, dysfunctional federalism that privileges Captial. Indeed there are three founding nations - French, English and First Nations (Quebec, ROC, and a multitude of First Nations)...and any re-working of the 'legal relations' that bind us together must, in my view, occur at the perogative of the people of Canada with whom sovereignty vests...and NOT the Premiers, the PMO, The Fraser Institute, The CD Howe Institute, the Boards of Trade, and the Corporate Media.

I don't disagree, Peter, that what was initially spoken of and characterized to be a "confederation", of which we still "formally" speak, has in fact taken "legal" shape as a "federation" that reflects the Anglo military conquest and subsequent domination. Entirely correct. In terms of relations between Quebec and Anglo-Canada, that is the problem nonetheless.

Which is not only well described, but the direction in which I think our, Quebec and Anglo-Canada's relationship needs to evolve.

We declared a "confederation" but in fact created a singular "federation", which Natives and Quebecers have not only, not forgotten, but will continue to refuse to give up on. (Quebec also has its own problem with understanding and accepting the "Native" view of themselves as also one of the "founding people" to this Canadian "confederation", as Lynn so correctly underlines. They will also, along with ourselves, have to swallow a bitter pill or two, if the object of this is truly a national unity, which all the main parties can accept and sign on to, and hence have the potential to be more than a hollow declaration of but one of the three actual sides.

Outside of that, Peter knows that I agree with him near entirely. Along with this struggle to hold ourselves together as a Canadian State, against internal disolution and external absorption, we also still have, in my view, a social and economic revolution to carry out, or "evolution" if that makes you feel less threatened, much along the lines which Peter describes here, and he and I have championed for from the beginning of Tyee.

We need a revitalization of democracy generally within this country, politically and economically, from the ground up, as well as in the simply "formal" terms of the relations between our three "main" national founding groups. In my view, it is all part of one and the same struggle that has to be waged against the Neoconazi view of our Canadian state, its peoples, our internal relationships and dynamics, as well as their readiness to betray us to their foreign "imperial" US masters.

It really ain't all that complicated, I think. It only gets complicated when we contemplate continuing on the same "national groups and class betrayal" course. Then there really is only the national option of deepening class and national group conflict, with no resolution in sight, but that of Captain America's.

The use of the word 'confederation' was a trick, a ruse, by the Prime Minister of Upper & Lower Canada (under the Act of Union (1840) who used the word 'confederation' to encourage those from "French Canada" and the maritime colonies to come to the talks to establish a strong central government in a federation called Canada. Anyways, Coyote, we are on side with this ..and I would agree likely the 'loosening of current legal relations that bind this federation' will perhaps result in a Confederation of Sovereign Canadian States...in the same way tha the Russian Federation dissolved legally, then re-constituted itself....we shall see, but shall we be protagonists of a new future, or merely 'objects' to 'toyed' with by Capital and the allies of Capital So, that is the question, which role will Canadian citizens adopt...one of "creative subject' making their own history in this Century ...or will they be 'passive, consumer-like object's --thereby guaranteeing their continual enslavement to Captal and Captain America's corporate war machine?

ps...that was a ruse of John A. MacDonald...no confusion with the John A. who appears here sometimes.

What a pleasure to have an honest, clear appraisal of how we Canadians screwed up, and I'm looking forward to part 2. Right on, Rafe!
Lorna

Well said Peter.
However, we should not forget, that it was in fact IN BC that the then ruling NDP, screwed the electorate with it's version of the sham of 'Recall and Initiative'.
With the instituting of this insult to democracy and intelligence, they declared first, "VOTERS ARE STUPID PEOPLE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL AND INFORMED DECISSION MAKING." They didn't actually use those words, but the NDP is still all that and hasn't changed one bit.
In all fairness, the LIARBLES, the CRAP hasn't been any better in at least offering to change things either.
However, the laws stand today as a monument to elctor stupidity and forgetfulness.
Thank you to the NDP (No Democracy here Party).
After some considerable debate on this web site, I am of the conclusion that the blatant lefties are really not proud Canadians at all. But really they are Communist leaning socialists whose aim is for Canadians to never see real democracy ever be instituted here.
Why? Fear of intelligent men and women who can see through their vail of righteousness. And see them as they really are.
Until Canadians are freed from the tyranny of undemocratic governments of any kind, and brought into the promised land of real power over politicians (which by the way is the source of power for the multinational corps), NOTHING CHANGES...
But the readers of this page in general won't have that, they don't think voters empowered by democratic rights and freedoms can be trusted.

Kinda makes me ashamed to be left handed....I could change I suppose...

What are you smoking freebc you been hanging out in the Reid all day, lol!

Raif, you're an idiot.

Trudeau didn't kill the country, Mulroney did. The Mulroney legacy is being continued by the current half-with of a Prime Minister leading this country: the man hasn't had the nerve to follow through on an idea since he stole the Liberal party from the real Liberals, let alone since he got elected.

Chretien was a leader - Martin is going to let our country go to hell in hand basket, he's so usless.

ursus is a bear. A majestic creature all things considered...
However, the Reid is a bar. A slimely little joint here. The kinda place you might call home.
I don't drink, smoke dope or screw other men. That would make me a loser of a leftie.
My neck is gettin' redder by the day though.
lol? What the hell is that? Last time I saw that used it meant lots of love. In the context of your message, it surely can't mean that.
And finally jini...that francophoney Pierre is the reason our country is so screwed up! Exclusively the reason. He just had to make a name for himself, to make the history books show he really accomplished something. Well he did.
He dragged our feeble waste of good paper called the BNA Act back into debate, repatriated it, then fiddled with it just enough to emasculate the voters of this country completely, then got his ass kicked out of the PM's office.
Too bad we can't roll the clock back a few years before he got in.
I hope the queer-becers vote to dissolve Canada once and for all. Maybe we will end up with democracy for a change.

Freebc - crawl back in your cage and play with the other children.

When you grow up, you'll figure it out.

If you need help changing your diaper, I can play your mother for a few minutes.

Hey Freebc..I must agree with you that it was the BC NDP that screwed up the Referendum & Recall legislation; I also agree that the solutions for what ails this democracy are not going to come from the NDP, Liberals or Conservatives. However I am not as pessimistic as you when you state that "... the readers of this page in general ... don't think voters empowered by democratic rights and freedoms can be trusted.".....There are lots of problems with citizens & electorate - such as apathy, disinterest...their being passive consumers rather than vigorous subects on the Canadian poltical scene...and in my view, part of it is due to a deliberate strategy by corporations to brow-beat and endlessly & shamelessly entertain their minds with utter 'junk -food", and part of it is due to the 'cool' nature of Canadian politics versus the 'hot' poltical culture of latin america....but ultimately leadership will emerge that will trust the people of Canada, that will dialogue with them, get them to develop a more self-reflective poltical consciousness in the manner of Paulo Friere's 'pedagogy of the oppressed'...which spawned such events as 'Theatre of the Oppressed' and the work of Augusto Boal....there is lots on the horizon, freebc, while I empathize with your pessimistic state of mind...I hope you don';t hang out there too long...but there are small victories along the way...and the Haida Nation protocol agreement seems to be one of them! We are in the belly of the beast, but so was Venezuela just a few years ago...and now the 5th Republic of the Bolivarian State with an absolutely fantastic constitition written by a people's constitutional constituent assemby, and now being implemented ...is indeed not just tacking neo-liberal Capital ...but building a progressive, democratic alternative. Check it out...!

Peter, it is indeed unfortunate that some of the readers, and submitters of the drivel unleashed by the moron ahead of you, are in fact anti-democracy.
To that end, they are unwittingly fallen into the hands of the same corporate giants that they hate so much. The same ones that you have mentioned.
I am not nearly so optimistic anymore. Especially after trying in vain to suggest an end to the fighting betwixt left and right.
If they won't drop their rocks...fine. I will pick up my "Better dead than red" rocks.
I will never be beaten into thinking like the wasted left does. If I wanted to think like that, I'd have to have a sex change and over dose on estrogen.
Commie Pinko Fag Junkies! The lot of them!
Undemocratic to the core, and so unhappy that their ideas are unelectable because they are unreasonable and unworkable, that they will stop at nothing to ensure that neither you or I enjoy the fruits of a productive working life.
I'm tired of welfare bums and government handout 'workers' telling me what I can or should be doing with my life.
I work hard at a real job, and I want to enjoy the fruit of it...unfettered thank you.
jini.singh. Have a bath, get a haircut, and lose the chip. Everybody in this country is a DP. Deal with it!
Even the 'first nations aren't. They came in and cleaned house on the caucasians that were already here. But because they won the war, it's theirs eh?
What a screwed up world we live in.

Amen, to that brother.

I don't think Freebc is listening, and is, in fact, more likely, a new guise for our old friend, Sirj, but he/she really does need to be paying more attention than evidenced in these ravings. But then, all these Brownshirts sound so much alike.... Yawn!

Much concerned about queers however, he/she is. Makes one wonder.

Feeling insecure, are you dahling? Check out your equipment, check out your real feelings, then use that info to sort out your real attitude to life and love. :-)Then just accept the result, Don't fight with it. :-)

Whatever, can I watch? :-D

el coyote...give me a call at my law office 604-684-4446 - we ought to chat, time to time, eh?

I like your expression, Peter, of the role of a Canadian citizen as "one of 'creative subject' making their own history in this Century" ...it really is a wonderful one.

Most people though, (probably through that consumer-driven culture of passivity you refer to) just do not believe we hold that kind of power in our hands. Hopefully inspiring leaders worthy of the idea will appear...there certainly is a lack of them presently in politics.

I'd be quite happy to vote for a number of people that write on this site... some of those damn lefties that freebear refers to. :-)

Oh well, just hope it doesn't take toooooo long and that I'm I'm still here, and still walking this rocky shoreline when the tide finally turns.

Correct me if I'm wrong Peter...but doesn't Venezuala and Bolivia exist without the needlessness of both federal and provincial governance?
However, I admire the starry eyed dreamer that you are.
The fact that after all of Canuckistan's history of eastern oppression of BC, and the rape of our resources for their good, you can still hold out hope of a wonderful united and evenly powered federation, is amazing to me.
In my mind, either Queer-bec has to unilaterally separate, or BCers need to develope a spine and a will to fight back and do it ourselves, before easterners will finally get the message that we are serious and want fairness before the federation continues on, or we leave and cut the ties that bind us to uncontrolled tyranny.
More likely though, the no guts lefties who don't really want democracy anyway, will sit on their beaches and protest everything democratic like the commies that they are.
I on the other hand am now resigned to the fact that the lefties who post here are representative of their contemporaries who will not drop their commie ideals.
I for my part am picking up my 'better dead than red' rocks again.
It is clear that there will never be compromise enough to reach concensus in Canader. Better it die it's death quickly and be done with it.
jani.singh, take a bath and get a haircut and a real job.

Grumpy:

This would be a classic example of: "What would happen if they threw a war, and no one showed up?"

redrivergirl:

Touche! But an out-of-control central government without built-in brakes, may be manipulated by these same forces, which is what I believe is happening right now. Classically, the "brakes" on uncontrolled centralism, was supposed to be strong regionalism, a confederation of regions(provinces), working in cooperation (not contention), and represented to the world by a central government. However, our centrtal government right from the beginning, actually represented the vested interests of southern Ontario and English-speaking Quebec, and all the laws passed in Ottawa reflected this. The provinces, over the next 100 years, elected governments that were increasingly at odds with Ottawa, and increasingly at odds with TROC as well. And the increasing myopia of these all these governments has come to equate governance with economy. The Fraser Institute et al is exploiting this quite nicely.

"el coyote...give me a call at my law office 604-684-4446 - we ought to chat, time to time, eh"
Peter.

I will indeed, my friend. Over the next couple of days, for sure.

Well, this Brownshirt's real attitude and ideology has been thoroughly and finally fleshed out here, in all its anti-Canadian, pro-US Empire and racist dimensions.

He is the real beating heart, the ideology that dare not speak its name, that lurks in the breast of "this type".

When Lou Dobbs on CNN starts talking about the emerging reality of "class warfare" in America, his exact words, if you missed it, you know that something is starting to turn. He and Bill Moyer just about blew me out of my socks in that conversation. It was inconcievable for CNN!

Indeed, my wife turned to me during the course of it and said, jokingly of course, "Have you been talking to these guys?'

I share your hope, Lynn. There's more than one or two of us need to begin to move towards meeting and "chatting" together from here.

Hey freebc I know exactly what the reid is tho I haven't been in there for a while, I am a Norhterner from the area living down south because of work. LOL means laughing out loud and my point is you must be on something if you believe the crap you are spewing.

You should lighten up pal!

Every human made disaster in history, all the wars, conquests, slavery, mass murder were caused, based and executed on "FAITH" in screwball wealth and power creating theories. The Campbell and Bush governments are prime examples of what uncompromising, blind "faith" can do to the human mind. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I commented on Layton fighting for the less fortunate and mike summers(freebc) attacks the provincial ndp. Well mike they are not the ones responsible for the cut backs which have hurt our elderly and less fortunate, martin and mulroney did that!

harpy supports giving tax breaks to foreign owned corporations money needed to support our infrastructure which is falling apart. Money badly needed for health care etc do you really think you will be able to afford a two tier system on a cabbies income in Vanderhoof?

I seriously doubt it! It really is sad that you can't see beyond your ideology or idiotology.

Coyote, I did happen to catch Bill Moyers on Lou Dobbs, thanks to a post by rebel here on this site... and I agree, you had to check what channel is this, not CNN?!

When Lou Dobbs talks class warfare, as you say, and asks what in the world is going on with the national media in the US and questions their critical judgment... then says that both the Democrats and the Republicans are owned lock, stock and barrel by corporate interests...well, the magnetic poles must be reversing or something... guess you gotta hold on to these hopeful signs "wherever" you find them. :-)

freebc: you need to dance and play more...if you're lucky, you might jiggle out some of those constricting stereo-types that have chained your soul ...

Rafe, please give us a break on this classic hand-wringing stuff.

It's all just cheap myth, pandering to the lowest common denominator and as an educated and realatively bright writer you ought to be ashamed for dipping so far into the shallow end.

Canada has been going to break up since before it ever actually got together. Go and find something original to spark some interest and perhaps we'll get more than these buckets of cliches that have rolled back in wave-after-wave, since your final word.

Alberta will separate when it's friggin oil and gas runs out and Quebec will separate when federal politicians and dumb (mainly red-neck voters stop the bull shit and end the scare stories.

In the main, Quebecers appear brighter than the averge Canadian and especially the westerners who think history started on a Leduc oilwell.

They have managed to come up with the most progressive social legislation in Canada and, I suspect, if asked, they would confirm they are the happiest group of Canadians there is despite the angst you and others attempt to dredge up, and they really have little desire to become meat in a USA/Can. sandwich.

Funny how that never quite hits the media for TROC..............

Freebc wrote: "More likely though, the no guts lefties who don't really want democracy anyway, will sit on their beaches and protest everything democratic like the commies that they are."

Obviously, you haven't been reading the comments here. Peter, Coyote, myself and numerous others have been promoting direct democracy and community control for months. The only opposition we encounter is from righists like yourself or the occasional right-wing social democrat who still thinks the NDP's shit doesn't stink. Furthermore, while still a minority current, the direct democratic-libertarian-populist left, is the growing tendency and the old authoritarian left has either become the smiley face of neoconservatism, (like that swine Blair) or like the ML's, has slid into permanent historical irrelevance. In future, try to write about something you understand. If you have questions about these matters, there are plenty of people qualified to answer you, but please give up on the BS.

I agree with the problems with present day Canada being traced back to Trudeau, and his own "vision" of a strong centrist government. We will continue to pay for his follies, until this country does something about it, or declares bankruptcy. He was the primary reason I switched allegiance to the Tories, especially Joe Clark, who did try, unsuccessfully, to do something about our mounting debt. After Joe was evicted by the Mulroney forces, I still voted Tory, once, but really became disenchanted with them, after one term. Ok, so now, I'm a "leftie", the NDP is by no means perfect, but at least they are pro-Canadian, and are not influenced by the power brokers, whose subtle brainwashing is evident in the Fraser Institute, CanWest communication, etc. Provincially, the Recall issue may not have been perfect, but was a far cry from doing nothing, which the neo-cons would have much preferred. Remember, it was they who put their people on the firing line, for two terms.

I don't believe that Canada will dissolve, because Quebec may talk separation, but they want "sovereignty association" with the rest of Canada, including a common currency, what more can they demand of us, without a clean break? The Western Canada Coaliton is strongest in the oil patch, ruled by anti-union American style free enterprisers. They are also the bastion of the new Conservative party, Harpy et al, who are the bane of the "red Tories", and probably a lot of dissension with those centrist thinkers. I predict Harper will not last until a proper election is called, the hand writing is on the wall, he can't win. That's why I agree that, with the sponsorchip scandal being front page news, on a daily basis, the vast number of Canadians would rather the devil they know, than the one they don't, he's feared that much.

Don Faulkner
Savona

anarcho:

I find it quite hilarious that, when the subject of direct participation in the democratic process comes up, it is the "righties" who oftentimes present the greater objections.............the whole notion of putting power directly in the hands of the people means curtailing the power of The Corporation (all hail the Corp), and we can't have that now, can we?

I've been in business in BC since 1957 and have owned 3 small corporations, but I've never known of a "democratic corporation". Although I've always involved my employees in all major decision making processes, like working out major estimates, buying new machinery, etc, where even the apprentices had equal say, the final decision was always mine and not by vote.

Major corporations, especially the multinationals, are little more than legalized Mafia, organized as planning economies to mislead, cheat, lie and dispossess others of their properties and lives. This is called "wealth creation" in neoclassical market economic parlance, pushed by governments.

People will one day have to make up their minds on whether they want to be governed by elected politicians working for the common good, or for the profitability of a few monster corporations, because, regardless of what some pointed headed economists preach, in the hi- tech age there ain't no such thing as "trickle down". Only trickled on. Right on our heads and we're supposed to applaud and be thankful for the generousity. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I say our politicians are already working for the corporations! Why people would support the likes of gordo martin or harpy when they favour giving huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy at the expense of our social programs is beyond me! I know gordo used millions of our dollars in his feel good add but people didn't have to buy that crap!

A true Canadian in my opinion does not favour the wealthy or the corporate dogs, they fight for the underdog not the spoiled brats like martin and his friends in the board rooms of vancouver toronto and new york, screw them!

I remember reading how one of the talking heads at the vancouver board of trade was upset that we didn't send our troops into Iraq, he was afraid the americans would be upset with us and that it would hurt business.

I read that as real Canadians should die invading another country for their oil, die so business men in vancouver can make more money? Excuse me, if he is so concerned why didn't he enlist his kids or go himself. Doesn't work that way does it, maybe mike summers (freebc) would like to go and fight for the elitists! Yeh right!

These people are running this country and have been since mulroonie opened the gate. These are the people summers supports.

http://www.ceocouncil.ca

http://www.ceocouncil.ca/en/view/?document_id=406&area_id=1

unfortunately ursus we're promised big personal gains if we just let the corporate elite dictate our economic system. and unfortunately, way too many people fall for that false hope as if somehow a good economy is for the greater good; in reality, the ecnomic indicators that determine the state of the economy do not benifit the whole, just .05 of the parts.

mbraun, great point you make... We should be asking... a good economy for who? Who really benefits?

Lynn, as long as we insist on agreeing with the crooks and the others who work for them that the only thing which counts is the economy, we'll always be chasing our tails.

It's a sad goddamned joke that reasonably bright and educated people feel they must have two incomes, an SUV, maxed-out RRSPs and a pension that would make most in the world extremely rich in their own environment and still they do not feel secure.

We live to feed our own vanities while applauding the messengers who praise our vain efforts to outdo the Jones.

As long as most of us don't even question the need for most of the consumer crap that fills the Wal-marts of the world, we will continue to serve as little more than fodder for those who feed at both ends of the food chain.

Economy is like big-stick. It has various meanings, but it's overall message is the same scary warning to toe the line or else.

It's the same message the gods' disciples delivered to the unwashed, and that our masters of a different age used to beat our ancestors into submission or war, but now that we are all free to chose our own course, we again opt for the first option available.

I think there is one thing that no one is considering: that Quebec's separation would be economic suicide and most Quebecers know it. The only reason that the 1995 referendum was as close as it was is that Parizeau's vague phrasing of an "economic association". As if the federal government would sit down and negotiate a favorable deal for splitting up the country.

As much as I hate to agree with Preston Manning, I pretty much have to go along with what he said after the 1995 election - that the major error on Chretien's part was not to make clear the consequences of separation. Economic association? Forget it. Any "deal" made would be horrifically one-sided, with Canada getting the best part and Quebec the worst. You're not going to negotiate a good deal if the other side wins by having you walk away from the table. It's just not going to happen. That's the message we need to be sending.

Civil war? Doubtful, to say the least. Not a single person has died in the cause of Quebec independence since the FLQ crackdowns. One could argue that there is more military support for the separation of Montana than Quebec.

Western separation? As one poster pointed out, the goal is not so much independence as it is joining the US. I don't think this is going to be a problem either. I think that given the US's own problems, in the decades it will take to make any headway toward separation it will be clear that joining the US would be like rats jumping ON a sinking ship.

+

I think my comment is agreeing with you, allan, though maybe I've had too much sun today and my writing is reflecting that. I was just agreeing with mbraun that the "good economy" of the elite is sold as nirvana for the masses when it fact it is only their idea of a good economy because it is good to (benefits) them, the privileged few.

I agree with you, it definitely is the big stick... and was certainly the big lie used over and over again by the BS Liberals in our recent election.

It is very muggy here today, and I have been working on the beach all afternoon "trying" to make a breakwater. I am going to make myself a long cool one with a sliver of lime. Cheers!

Jees I hate to openly admit this, but I must agree with Allan's last posting (even though he has poor judgement estimating speeding trains)

Gone fishing with the son-in-law. (Must pack a wee lunch, some gangi, and some tea.)

The kokanee are running, and the promise is of a bit of sunny weather. Screw "their" friggin' economy. May it bite them in the ass.

Some things are more important and eternal than evenpolitics. :-) Like sins of the flesh and fishing. It's a Zen thing. :-)

And I have allowed the sun that ripened the grape to have far too much influence as I try to reply with something resembling clarity, Lynn.

0f course, we follow the same course on this. I was only hoping you would allow a broader discussion on your question "who really benefits?"

Enjoy that long cool one and good luck on the breakwater, but remember, it's nature you're trying to tame.

Woody, what can I say? I'm always late when I get to the station.

Coyote, you are the only guy I know who goes fishing late at night, but go for it. Zen or not, with Solstice upon us it's well time all who can are out there breathing in the essense of our budding super-natural BC

As for Quebec; Nations and tribes all over the world propagate myths and avoid facts. Hitler was a master myth manipulator. The Americans hold their myths dear, i.e. Washington crossing the Delaware, Lincoln at Gettysburg, Roosevelt and San Juan Hill, Camelot and Uncle Ronnie. For Quebec it`s `Je Me Souvien` or Parizeau losing the referendum and blaming `Les Autres` Economic facts don`t stand a chance against mythmakers. If anything Canada has too few myths to bind the country together other than blaming Ottawa or Toronto for everything that goes wrong. The myths no matter how fanciful are the glue that this country sadly lacks.

You're right on the importance of myth creation by srewballer politicians and false prophets . This is how every religion and political system is born, grows and survives.

Propaganda is built on the fact that people want to believe in something, especially when they experience hard times. The more the desperation, the more people go for the kookiest ideas. The nazis were still "winning WW2" when the Russians were halfway across Berlin. The main reason for alcohol and drug use is to block out realities. When people say "I need a drink", meaning alcohol, of course, in reality they say " I have to knock my brains out, because I can't handle facts!"

The answer is not more myth creation, or more drugs and booze, but the capability and ways to present realities in forms people can understand and become empowered with the knowledge and realization of how to solve problems to help themselves. Can this be done? Of course! But first we should educate our politicians to accept realities, which means the shedding of a lot of the empty platitudes political ideologies are built on. Not to mention university economics departments, the biggest bunch of kooks in history, who completely lost any contact with realities. As we can witness even on this forum. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

In our opinion particularly after our polling on the subject, Rafe has identified the problem Canada faces with Quebec precisely how it is. His assertion that the west doesn't care anymore (about the Quebec situation) exposes an additional problem for the federalists this time around. Westerners won't help when Ontario starts calling on us to 'keep the family together'. Westerners may be tired of deals with Quebec, but they don't trust Ontario anymore.

Rafe is articulating reality, our politicians, the mainstream press and the 'spinsters' that aid and abet them are in deep denial. The stakes for the 'means of production' are huge. If Quebec moves to more nationalist conditions, what happens to the national press? Corporate institutions like CanWest and others (think about the National Post) will dissolve. From what we are learning, at the rate the public continues to see through the (pretty transparent) propaganda that is Canadian media, in two years time 80% of the public will be ignoring the press altogether. It's infuence on an important issue like Quebec leaving will be zero.

Rafe is correct, you cannot solve a problem until you admit that one exists.

So it boils down to this:
1. Quebec won't go...no matter how much we hope it will.
2. Civil war won't happen here either. Remember? The federal liberals took the right to legally have a gun away from those who would like a civil war.
3.Lefties will never change. In their zeal to achieve pro-rep, they will think they have finally achieved legitimacy with the voters. They haven't now and they never will because they are all undemocratic flakes whose ideas are so out of touch with those who just want to own their own home and keep the bills at bay.
Lefties are not growing despite their best efforts.
In fact, if you disect the numbers without predudice, you will find that people are really tired of the same old worn out poplitical correctness of the past and are becoming more radical towards clearly defined 'RIGHT and WRONG' and want jail terms that reflect this.
Human rights are only to be extended to those who obey the laws of the land.
Lefties want child molesters and thugs to be able to vote for their party, beit NDP, Green, Communist...whatever, they are all the same.
I want child molesters in an unpleasant jail for a very long time. I want thugs to have no fun there as well.
And I want the right to defend my stuff from theives. If that means blowing their asses of as they are coming though the window...cool! Oh, and I will pull the switch on those who deserve the death penalty. Another thing over 80% of the people of Canada want back.
Oh yeah, you whacked out lefties are nothing but anti-enterprisers who don't want me or my family to get ahead, and don't want me or my friends to have a meaningful vote.
I have a real job. I think I'll go to it now.

Wow!
So many comments on this subject!

Have any of you lived in, or visited Quebec?

Separation is a political industry! It keeps peole employed-sometimes as governmnet and sometimes as opposition! Quebec will most likely never be an independent country, and the same can be said of the other provinces. I do not think a majority of Canadians, whatever their political stripe/bent would want to be annexed by the U.S.

Yes, Quebec is distinct, just like the other provinces, yet we have many things in common!

I think The Feds should allow one vacation a year to be tax free so that people can visit other parts of this country.

I was born in Montreal and eventually left, an economic refugee. I still consider myself a Quebecois, but Canadian first.

I wish all of your energies were directed at something else rather than the perpetual motion machine that "Separation" whether it be in the east or west!

I would love to see all of these opinions in comments about whether we will be abvle to sustain

Are any of the commentators on this thread from Quebec? When push comes to shove

Freebc, I truly hope you get your wish and that some dumb American border guard allows you permanent entry into the US.

You are finally catching on, however, that most of us want Quebec to remain as it is, a part of Canada where redneck gun-totting assholes who openly espouse hatred are not really welcome.

Bon voyage, mon ami!

Wow! mike summers (freebc) your true colours are showing more and more these days. noone on this site has ever said that they didn't want child molesters not in jail. Also, noone on this site has ever admitted to wanting to "blow the asses" off thieves; that is until now. Who's the real nut case mike summers? (Hint: the one who admitted that they'd have no problem shooting a person - last i checked that isn't in line with the laws of the land; would that mean that we'd get to lock you up for a long time?) Did the reform party of bc ask you to stop identifying yourself with there organization or somthing? if so, then that's troublesome. Peace be with you!

Freebear;

"Have any of you lived in, or visited Quebec?"

Yeah, I went to the University of Quebec in Trois Riveriers. Here's an interesting story. I was roomed with four guys, a guy from France, one from Ivory Coast and one from Laval.
About a year after having known each other my roomie from Laval told me, "When you first got here I was a separatist. Now I am not."

He went into how he had realized he'd been brainwashed over the years in Quebec society to believe all these terrible things about how Canada views Quebec and how separation was the only answer..yada yada yada.
But he said after meeting me, a British Columbian, he realized he knew nothing about Canada or its people. THen he began to open his eyes wider and realized many of the things you mentioned.

I should add I was there for five months for French immersion and we had this talk when I came back to visit.

Free BC

"2. Civil war won't happen here either. Remember? The federal liberals took the right to legally have a gun away from those who would like a civil war."

Yeah that's just what we want, our nation turned into the next Lebannon because you hate seeing french on your ceral box.

ALso, Free BC

"Another thing over 80% of the people of Canada want back." That is such a crock of crap I don't even know where to begin... where did you get that figure? Seriously?
The funny thing about your statements is simply by looking at who is in control of the House everything you say is de-bunked.

jam-ez...
Over 80% of folks want execution available as a retribution for murders. Plain and simple. Obviously you are far too simple to get the drift.
NOT EVERYBODY ON THIS THREAD IS AS THICK AS YOU SEEM TO BE SO I WILL TYPE BIGGER AND SLOWER SO YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO READ IT!
MURDER SOMEONE IN COLD BLOOD, DIE FOR IT!
Pretty easy I thought. Oh well some folks can't handle facts.
By the way, I don't own a gun. After reading this drivel I think I would like to own one...but no I don't.
And, amazing but true, I can live quite nicely apart from the USA. We don't need to be annexed by them to live free and strong.
I also don't need to smoke dope, live on welfare as a bum, protest again men and women who legitimately go to work to pay for welfare bums, and I am not s@xually disoriented like most on this thread seem to be.
You shouldn't be allowed to marry and you shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Yours mine or anyone else's.
How did you people have kids anyway?

Oh...I have never been to queer-bec.
I have also never been to France or Communist China either. But I have zero desire to afflict myself with them either.
Viva queer-bec libre!
Isn't that what Chuck De Gallstone said in the 60's?

Polls show only a minority want revenge killings as part of the so-called justice system. Maybe it was 80% back in the 1950s - where you belong, by the way freebc. Generally I don't like to use such terms as "racist", and homophobic" but these describe you rather accurately. Furthermore, it is folks like you who are in decline, not the liberatory movements. That is why you are so full of hate. You fear a society that is democratic, egalitarian and libertarian. Lets face it fell, you'd be real happy if the fags, frogs, spear-chuckers, and broads knew their place right? The thought of all those Quebec nationalists, feminists, gays and Native People, standing up and demanding their rights is a real scary thing for a little fella like you. I' m sure the KKK is still accepting applications...

Free bc

"Over 80% of folks want execution available as a retribution for murders. Plain and simple" Where did you get this? You made it up... that's where.. Just because you make something up doesn't make it true, you mendicant.
If everyone is as rigth wing as you say how come the Liberals are in power?

What the US has these days is not freedom. You can't even burn the flag now... sad sad state of affairs.

I bet you'd love to get married, too bad no woman would take your sorry arse.

By the way freebc...without France, you wouldn't even have any free world these days.

freebc I was born near Vanderhoof my family has been there since the turn of the century and none of us are as right wing or fanatical as you, including my father who spent years on the front lines of Europe.

Any idea how many innocent people have been executed in the states, how many have been killed by bush when he was governer of texas, it is all out there! To kill someone for breaking into your home is bit drastic don't you think.

I have never lived in Quebec but sure have had a good time partying there on several occasion it is hard to find more fun loving and happy people anywhere in this country. I was pissed at the east until I spent some time there and now feel that all of this Country is worth saving and protecting against rednecks like you!

The one consistant fact I have always noticed about the people who call for the death penalty etc is they are very fearful and cowardly, they feel that they must yell and bluster to scare away the boogey man who might be awaiting them around the next corner.

Spend some time in the u.s. to see how fearful life can be when every whacko extremist and crook can carry a sidearm and are quite quick to use it, you might not fare to well in that environment so maybe you should stay in nice safe little Vanderhoof where you can bluster and get away with it.

Where it is safe to beat up on the odd native from stoney for not having correct cab fare and to much alchohol in system to remember who did him!

Since when is being a cabbie a real job, did you go to school or train for years to become one can you afford two tier medicine on your wages. Or a civil suit for shooting some kid for climbing in your bedroom window thinking it is his when high on over the counter booze that was sold to him by a bootlegging cabbie, that is how we got our booze!

I don't mean to bag on all cabbies just this one particular fellow by the name of mike summers with his incredible logic, a throw back from the days when missipi was burning!

France? What has France done to liberate the world? I suppose by being such a militarily inept nation they have shown an example of might-as-well-be-pacifism.

"France? What has France done to liberate the world? I suppose by being such a militarily inept nation they have shown an example of might-as-well-be-pacifism."

One of the first democratic nations AND they helped the US defeat Britain, a piece of history the Americans love to forget.... they owe France for the creation of their very nation.

Oh, that. Sure. And to the Iroqois Confederacy, for a model of stable constitutional government and the image of an eagle clutching arrows.

But you can make a counter example of everything (if you're hanging out on the computer instead of rearranging the furniture like the wife thinks I should be doing); if we're talking about the last hundred years, then France has had its ass handed to it a few times, was a model of non-democracy in places like Congo and Vietnam, and collaborated with the Nazi regime by using its domestic police force to hunt down and remove Jews.

If we go back far enough in time, everyone looks good (or bad). I'm sure that some country can also lay claim to the formation of nitrogen in the atmosphere.

It is interesting how many people I have spoken to who really enjoy Quebec. An associate of mine who achieved his MBA at McGill University (and who now resides in Burnaby)married a French Quebec girl from there. He absolutely loved it there. Montreal has been known to swallow sports teams alive with its party life (no-one showing up for important games the next day).

I also recall when I was young, two young Quebec girls coming to our home in Victoria, B.C. after two of my four sisters had been to Quebec. These two girls were great fun. I have never forgotten how happy they were coming into our house of seven children, not knowing us, but laughing and singing for no particularly reason except that they were happy.

One of my researchers just back from the suburbs of Montreal says that the locals knowing he was from BC wanted to make it pretty clear that separation was coming, and that he should tell everyone. My researcher was originally from the United States, and although living here for a few years, found the experience a little unnerving.

I expect he wasn't used to that type of liberte
of expression back in his original doman.

I don't know how many posters here have actually travelled to Quebec but few have mentioned that the impetus for grievance in the West is economic. The media has made much of Quebec's benefitting from Canada economically but the push for separation in Quebec (which is not as strong as media reports) is cultural, not economic. Many Quebecers assume it means leaving with the same priviliges as now. The actual number of hard supporters is in the 30% range.

FREE B.C. :

I have re-read some more of your posts to this stream and concluded that you are very possibly one of the sickest sounding individuals I have ever encountered in any way. I am concerned that you may hurt yourself or others. Come out from under your umbrella of ignorance and simmering anger, face the world with courage you don't know you have and begin to heal.