@fish-counter

Ignore this PAB troll. Never waste time on obvious Liberal plants.

G West, I don't know

if you have some beloved family member who happens to be a teacher or something, but I have honestly had it up to the teeth with how 'thankless' and 'unrewarding' the job is. If it feels like that, sorry, but you ain't doing it the right way! All the work I have ever done with children and youth, I have found that you get paid back ten times what you give out. I don't know what kind of gratification others are looking for, or how they're going about securing it, but their equation doesn't follow the same laws of math as mine. I would hate to be under the care of someone who finds the job 'thankless', particularly being young and relatively powerless. I doubt that would do much in the direction of 'giving me a future'. I have said it before, and I am saying it agin: All jobs have some hidden intricacies, which you only know about once you're inside them. Teaching is not unique in that regard. I guess what I'm really tired of is people who think they're such a special case. maybe shucking the attitude would give them more support among the public.

WE are ALL in the shit stew up to our necks

The work of conservatism is our national agenda. I suspect every poster on this board is a 99%er. We are all being robbed ruthlessly, systematically, and without human concern by the corporate powers entrenched within state. We need to unite.

Here we are fighting ourselves, bickering about whether a BC teacher should make what an Ontarian teacher makes; whether the Greek people are lazy socialists, etc.

The facts are simple, just look. The government is in no way, shape or form representative of the people at large. it operates on an ideology that is inhumane and cruel to people everywhere, preferring to target people of colour in other locales so we do not see the crimes so clearly. But do not kid yourself that it will not use the guns it already has turned on you. If you do, you are woefully naive.

Canada is one of the world's top-ten military suppliers, yet we audaciously call ourselves peace keepers, not warmongers. And make no mistake, we are a warmongering nation. Every single dollar spend on the military-industrial complex is a dollar diverted from our human needs that benefit us all - school, food, housing, the arts, healthcare, the aged, athletics, etc.

Every war waged results in civilians accounting for 90% of the deaths. War is really no more than war against children. And yet we Canadians turn a blind eye by patriotically 'supporting our troops', by voting for the madmen who send them off to slaughter and murder the children of far off lands. Can it get more shameful than that?

We need a revolution of thought, not more refinement, more tinkering, more re-wiring of the destructive time-bomb about to detonate. Our government talks about threats to our nation, our need for security, and how it will protect us. But when it says 'us', it means the interests of corporatists. Anything the corporate bosses demand, they get. If not immediately, then as soon as the government has the nerve, gambling it can still wring a bit more from the people without revolt. That is the only check on government conduct -- take all it can without sparking insurrection.

The people can all rot in hell as far as the government is concerned. Even the very soldiers it hires to fight its war, to participate in the global crime-wave, are thrown in the trash. But this has always been the case. Sadly moms and dads are still proudly enlisting their children to be killers.

The very most government offers is to placate us with token words of concern backed with the return of some nominal amount of monies it 'legally' robbed prior (with threats of state looming everywhere if you do not abide).

Government play for keeps, and violence, if needed, is always on the table. Canada (irrespective of political stripe) has been involved in one war crime after another lately, and STILL we march to the polls, giving support with a beguiling, useless vote (offered only to keep us believing the charade of its democracy). (cont)

(con't from above)

We, and I speak most specifically about the middle and upper class, but not 1%ers, need to get our act together and see how we are the roadblock preventing the survivalist and systematic reforms this nation, this world, demands.

We -- the lawyers, the police, the army, the teachers, the doctors, the engineers, the ferry workers, the bureaucrats, the middle management, etc -- facilitate its crimes against ourselves everywhere. We are its guardsmen.

We accept its valueless bribes of flat screen TVs; of over-sized, decorative homes; of shiny new gas-burners of all sizes and makes; of the properly iconed clothing, and other worthless pieces of greed masking as success as payment in full for our consent to its horrors. It's disgusting, and we need to fundamentally change our way of thinking before we destroy ourselves.

The corporate sociopathic pursuit of profit is destroying the planet,and destroying humanity. Why are millions of people dieing from hunger, undetonated land mines left as trash after the invasions, warfare, exposure, or from poisons in our environment; why are we facing a shortage of what we all really need and want only to allow the destruction to be financed?

There is an uprising coming. The middle class is feeling the noose tighten as the dream of home ownership dies, and the guarantee of a successful job on the back of a university education evaporate. And a few (far too few at this time) of the upper class are seeing the problems of uncontrolled state as well. Soon, whenever it finally sinks in, they will all gladly join the homeless, the working poor, the under-educated, the Indians, the destitute, the people who have always borne the brunt of capitalist folly.

We must all start now and join the ever-bubbling insurrection against this sham called government and take charge of our own humanity, our destiny as people sharing a planet. The government you elect (regardless of Party) is the hangman. It directs the spectacle of crime as the shadow of socio-pathological corporations, not as representatives of human beings and citizens desires.

We are severely delusional culture, but our humanity remains inside. We must let our humanity reign over our world, not the dogma of madmen in bed with lunatics. We are the gravediggers created by the horror show called capitalist democracy. It's high time we got busy.

Raise the working class wages and watch the economy grow. No.

If only it were that simple. With or without globalisation, productivity governs real wages. This "pay me more and I will spend it" philosophy is exactly why Greece is in so much trouble.

You can double wages, and prices go up to defeat you. The GNP or GDP drives everything. If China and India are sucking jobs out of our economy, we can pay ourselves like kings but we will only to find ourselves deposed.

We are playing in a Zero Sum economy unless we actually increase productivity and profits. Give the teachers more and everyone else pays for it. I am no capitalist lackey, but I do understand and remember that much from my economics MBA classes.

If you think otherwise, go beat youself on the head with a saucepan. There is no free lunch. We all have to work for a living, and we rise or fall by our individual and collective efforts.

Unions were great in the days when people worked for a handful of gravel a fortnight, but they do not work as well when they turn the economy into a dogfight between the biggest dogs.

The old dogma is no longer valid. I don't care how much teachers in Alberta make; they can afford it. BC can't. It is as simple as that.

If you want to see how the other side lives, go to Greece and stay there.

dorothy

I was responding to a comment - one which I won't repeat - but it's still there if you take the trouble to look.

Teachers are a special case and the ones we have here in BC are being demonized and treated unfairly - both in relative terms and in respect of the importance of the jobs they do for all of us.

That doesn't mean every teacher is perfect - but anyone who has been in a class, of the type I described, lately knows that they are working under very difficult and trying conditions AND, they deserve to paid at least on a par with teachers in the rest of Canada - the fact they are now about $10G per annum behind Alberta teachers is as big a disgrace as the fact we have the worst child poverty rates in the country.

Fish-counter:
I won't even respond to that kind of comment.

Teachers are NOT a special case

Of course they are being treated badly by the government; everyone is. That is what governments do. I have worked for all three levels of government and they are all equally horrible in their way, but the money is good.

The only valid complaint that teachers have is class sizes, which are too big and just plain unacceptable. Teachers are fairly paid however and comparisons with Alberta are odious. Alberta has money to burn - and they do. We don't have to follow their example.

I don't see how paying teachers more is related to child poverty. In fact, there is no such thing as child poverty. It is a euphemism for family poverty or just plain poverty.

"Child poverty" is one of those terms that gets launched to signal some sort of sensitivity to the needs of children without addressing them one iota.

The problems in Greece stem from their low productivity and their arms purchases, which is just another expression of the fact that yopu can't spend the saem nickel twice.

My redneck comment about going to Greece is not entirely out of place. Many of the teachers I know do in fact take one or even two annual holidays abroad, a luxury the parents of their students cannot afford. So teachers who go abroad every year can't be that poor, can they?

The textbook definition of

The textbook definition of economics is:

"The science for the management and distribution of scarce resources"

Wages are part of the logical distribution system, democratic rights, and not some kind of a charity.

Get rid of the phony free trade treaties, get out of the WTO, go back to the tariff systems we had 40 years ago , "protecting" the Canadian economy and jobs, stop the buying up of the country and causing disgusting inflation, by foreign owners, in short: "Go back to democracy" and everybody can have decent jobs and incomes, as we used to have in the bad old days, before "free trade", the biggest "conservative" fraud.

I was in manufacturing and my non union guys all received decent wages and most of the owned their own homes, when the new lords of the country were still waving Mao's "Little Red Book"

Ed Deak.

Ed Deak.

Ed Deak

Reconcile capitalism with democracy for me, will you please?

Paying teachers properly

Paying teachers properly and keeping class size down and providing classroom learning assistance for the many troubled, disabled and autistic kids in classes these days; not to mention the kids who come from broken homes who come to school hungry each morning - these things are all part of the price we pay for a decent and civilized society.

There is more than enough money in the provincial treasury to pay out in excess of $220 million every year to PRIVATE schools - the suggestion that teachers in BC public schools should be paid less than teachers in Alberta is odious and offensive.

Teachers and education are the primary way that we can deal with poverty in this society. Period. In a great many schools in urban BC today there are a majority of students (in Kindergarten and Grade I) who come to school for the first time speaking little or no English....Disabled and troubled kids (who belong in school) often do not have the learning assistant help they need and are placed in regular classrooms.

Spend some time in one of those classes, please - then come back and we'll talk.

As for the Greek situation, I don't think you have much of an understanding of that either.

Fiscal austerity is not the answer - in fact, as the situation in Ireland has shown, it actually makes things worse.

In fact, fiscal contraction actually reduces output in the short run which means that part of the initial gain in terms of a lower deficit is immediately offset by reduced revenue and higher safety-net spending.

Laying off Greek workers won't help because reductions in output and employment will dampent the possibility of long-run growth. Capital investment will be further depressed, trained workers lose their skills, and so on. and all of this reduces future revenues.

The Greek problem today has very little to do with productivity and a lot to do with too many mega-projects and history - not to mention the fact that IMF-forced austerity has killed the tourist industry - which, in the last two years, has been in the toilet.

Would you suggest that Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Iceland are also products of the same 'low productivity' shortcomings that you throw at all Greeks?

Igby....capitalism is the

Igby....capitalism is the same kind of democracy as communism: A ruling class legitimized by ideology or rather some pseudo religion, to rule and screw any and everybody, while calling it "freedom" and "democracy".

Just as the nazis fought the war for : "Freedom, Christianity and Western civilization"

The ruling classes of history have always known that people will believe anything when giftwrapped the right way.

Ed Deak.

smelling fishy

"Unrealistic wage demands are a thing of the past. "

I'm not sure how realistic or unrealistic they are, given I haven't seen any demands from the teachers yet.

"So BC teachers want to be top of the ladder? Too bad!"

Yet CEOs and other top-of-the-ladder types insist on being paid top dollar for what they do. If you actually think that the teaching profession would cost less if there wasn't a union contract to average the wages down of all teachers - good, not-so-good, special ed, shop, and university prep - you'd be kidding yourself. Teachers that taught subjects that were valued - such as university prep courses - would command the highest wages. Those who kept remedial students out of jail by teaching them to read and giving them encouragement when their parents are too drunk or never home to do so, would command the least. And society would suffer.

But you never think through the consequences of your little love-bombs. I'd love to hear your rationales for David Hahn's salary demands.

Not only that, but I'm quite sure you skipped your economics classes while doing your MBA:
"You can double wages, and prices go up to defeat you. The GNP or GDP drives everything."

Second part: wrong. GDP plus effects of monetary policy drive everything. And sometimes the effects of monetary policy defeat the best efforts of GDP. Thailand, 1997, Sweden 1985, and Canada 1973 all found that out.

First part: partly right. Wages go up in a market that trades off (commodifies) wants against alternatives. Prices never rise as high as wages do, but because most people can't command the same wage increases as their neighbours, some become winners, and others losers in the price war.

Add to that the countervailing effects of an expanding economy due to expansion of credit (which you identified) beyond the carrying capacity of an economy (which you failed to identify); then you have a recipe for market failure.

No, Krugman notes in "The Return of Depression Economics" that expansion of the money supply through credit offers the best way out of an economic crisis such as we are now in. Wages may not be as good a thing to spend on as infrastructure projects, but they're certainly better than German-built ferries and German-built stadium domes.

Fish-Counter

Do you ever get lost trying to understand your own arguments?

I've heard better explanations of economics from Scrooge McDuck.

The Greeks work. Many of them didn't pay their taxes but they worked. Did you read the article? The problems in Greece are the result of wasteful spending such as on a future war with Turkey, the Olympics and as Van Isle points out, financial games.

Using your logic we all have to work harder and longer and do with less so we can make the rich richer. The thing is I want more out of life than to know my labours helped make parasites richer.

Thanks Frank, but read my last post again

Yes, part of the Greek problem is their military expenditure, but mostly it is their lousy productivity. We do need to work longer and harder, not for the arms manufacturers, but to pay for all the benefits we demand from our own governments.

Deficit financing of government operations is simply not sustainable. It is probably the most unsustainable thing they could possibly do, in fact. It puts the burden of current programs on our kid's backs, and that is akin to selling them into slavery.

All Canadian governments have deficit-financed themselves and they are 100% wrong. I believe the Campbell government passed a law prohibiting deficit financing, but it has been waived in favour of the stimulus package.

The healthcare industry now consumes the largest part of every provincial budget, not only because the feds are gradually withdrawing theirs, but because the workers want more, and so do the clients. How long is that sustainable? The teachers want more and so do the doctors, nurses and healthcare administrators. And why not ask for more, when you have a bloody big union to slug it out for you?

Meanwhile our schools are set to fall down when the Big One comes and we still pump raw sewage into the waters washing against the shores of "The Best Place on Earth".

Teachers and the healthcare professions are the spoiled brats of the western world. The line ups to join both professions tells it all.

A Revolution of Thought... Igbymac

"We need a revolution of thought, not more refinement, more tinkering, more re-wiring of the destructive time-bomb about to detonate. Our government talks about threats to our nation, our need for security, and how it will protect us. But when it says 'us', it means the interests of corporatists. Anything the corporate bosses demand, they get." ICBMs

First igby, an excellent analysis, in my view. What you get, that many from "the professional" stratas of the working class do not still, is a more precise understanding of what is going on within "current", not already "late" capitalism... (Which Ed also, more or less, gets.) ...Though in my view, Ed's thinking is still trapped in a now distant time, level of societal and capitalist/feudal economic development, related in some important ways to the present of course, but which is also importantly different. He still thinks, or seems to, that fundamentally, "any" suggestion of "moving beyond" or "transforming" capitalism equates to that world which indeed did corrupt and derail the "socialist/communist" revolutions of the day, and led to the corruption of "social democracy". (These were all feudal and semi-feudal societies, of mostly land tied peasants, or very early development, late blooming capitalist societies.) This country, the US and Europe are all "highly advanced" corporate capitalist societies utilizing an increasingly relatively highly educated working-class, knowledgeable of "modern" systems of organization, communication and production etc. Which presents a qualitatively different "opportunity" to people, especially all the various strata of the "modern" working-class, including professionals, who want to transform the "power paradigm" and "democratize" society and the economy "fundamentally".

Russia 1918 and China at the time of the events leading to WW2, still had populations largely tied to the land, knowing virtually little else, and virtually totally dependant on the economic and state craft knowledge of the nobility and the nascent bourgeoisie. This is NOT the situation in modern "Western" capitalist societies.

What we have here is a gathering total failure of the "advanced" capitalist system, though one of many failures over its history, now at a qualitatively different historical and material level of development. As yourself says, what is needed here is, fundamentally, a change in our "thinking", (and thinking does change like everything else) to see and understand that collectively we, all the strata of the working class, the 99%, can do it ourselves if we "co-operate". We no long "need" or "require" an elite class, as in the past... with which reality our thinking, now much still trapped in the past, must catch up. Being dragged, as Marx once said, kicking and screaming into the present. (My view strictly.)

Fish-counter

"We do need to work longer and harder, not for the arms manufacturers, but to pay for all the benefits we demand from our own governments. "

We don't get that many benefits from our governments. For example, it would be a tough for a budgie to survive on old age pension alone.

If you think we don't pay enough then advocate for higher taxes. If you think deficits are a problem then advocate for higher taxes.

Because if you cut services people will want their taxes cut.

Which would be hard to do since the working class hasn't had a real wage increase in 30 years.

So where has all the economic growth of the last 30 years gone if not to workers? Its gone to those at the top.

The deficits that have been run up were not because Campbell was helping the poor. You need to understand where the money went. Once you look at that you won't be able to say its because seniors, the poor etc have too much money.

Healthcare professionals are not overpaid. if they were then we should see thousands of doctors and nurses from the US, Britain, Australia etc coming to Canada. We don't.

You want them to work for peanuts yet you don't tell us how we can get people to become doctors and nurses or stay in Canada if we offer them low wages.

Deal with reality. Blaming healthcare workers and teachers is easy, a lot easier than understanding macroeconomics in an advanced economy.

People like you keep telling Canadians they have to do more for less and then complain everybody's too poor. Why not instead try and understand where the wealth of the country is and what its doing there?

Why not try and figure out why the country keeps getting richer while its citizens get poorer?

Frank: healthcare consumes 40% of the BC provincial budget

I agree there has been massive waste and corruption in BC, but that is no reason to give teachers an as yet unspecified pay raise.

Probably the biggest single waste of money was the $900 million spent on security for the Olympics. There was no 'legacy' from that when it came to dealing with the Stanley Cup riots, was there? The Vancouver cops were as clueless as Clouseau when they were confronted by a real security threat.

I actually understand economics, micro- and macro. In the last few years, the average family income has risen a lot less than teachers wages and the healthcare budget. Something has got to give.

Greece and its military incurred debt

Someone recently sent me an item called THE TIME LINE OF THE ROTHSCHILDS At the time I read it, shrugged and tucked it in the back of my mind 'til I read the Tyee article about Germany and other nations supplying Greece with huge amounts of military hardware and a debt that is guaranteed by the Government. I'm going to read the Rothschild timeline again.

Fish-counter

Would you tell Microsoft to lower the price of Windows 7 because you just spent a lot on the Olympics? Why would Microsoft care? Why would teachers care?

They're not concerned with your (the government's) budget. They're concerned with their own. They can't buy a house for the price of one in Carrot River but you want them to ignore their own expenses and instead think about yours?

What is their motivation for doing that?

Can we use that same reasoning on our trading partners? Tell the Americans and Chinese we're going to charge them more for wood and oil because BC Place needed a new roof? Again, they will pay what they're willing to pay. teachers will work for what they're willing to work for.

The government budget is the government's problem. If they can't figure out how to budget then step aside.

And you didn't address the fact that the economy is producing more a lot more wealth than it was 20 years ago. As the economy grows you can't tell workers they have to do with less. They deserve a piece of the pie and if you've given the pie away to your rich buddies instead then you better figure out a way to get it back.

Because people want to get paid for working.

Fish-counter

Take my challenge. Go sit in on a 5/6. o5 5/7 split class in a lower middle class area of Nanaimo - pick one where there are at least two special needs kids in the class...

Then come back and tell us what pikers teachers are.

As for health professionals: Get real.

I just watched my brother in law die of a very rare cancer - he entered hospital in late July and passed before the end of the first week in September.

His care was superb and worth every penny - the staff in two lower mainland hospitals couldn't have been better.

Something has to give all right - but it's not teachers and health care.

erratum

That should be 5/6 or 6/7 split - sorry.

Jerry Munro

You state about the Greek problem:
"And fundamentally, it stems everywhere from the greed that flows through capitalism...."

Correct me if I'm wrong. Greece is a welfare state that no longer can pay for its lavish welfare programs. It can't extract the necessary funds from its own citizens so it is required to issue bonds to whomever will buy them.

I acknowledge that there's greed involved but I would be looking at the Greek citizens who demand to be pampered.
Not towards the people who lent them the money for this undeserved lifestyle.

John Corman

Hey look, another guy that didn't read the article.

G West: I do work with elementary classes, in a limited way and

teachers have my respect. I couldn't do that job, but I don't get paid half what they do either.

You should try working for a boss who put four sales managers and three controllers out the door in four years. A boss whose greeting was "Why don't you take a sh*t at home in the morning before you come into work?" I got that guy fired and took a severance package myself to exit that toxic environment. You should try working in another career before you try matching war stories.

This thread is about Greece. The BCTF reference was an off-topic comment that belongs in another place. I have no doubt there are Greeks telling one another war stories at this very moment. The thing is; when the money runs out, the money runs out. It is the Dickensian McCawber Principle at work. The Liberals seem to have the majority support for now (but not mine, I hasten to add).

Good Luck with the split classes. You have my moral support, but you make more money than me, so don't ask me for more.

Loved this one -

"I've heard better explanations of economics from Scrooge McDuck." ~ Frank

Congrats to the Ontario NDP

Congrats to the Ontario Liberals (not real Liberals according to Luke and happy because they have adopted many socialist ideas) for keeping the Conservatives at bay.

And although the final results are not in yet it looks like the NDP have increased their seat count from 10 to 17 and may mean the Liberals only have a minority and the NDP will be in the catbird seat.

In spite of the Globe's scathing attack on the NDP leader a few days ago it looks the party did well.

Fish-counter, 2 points if I may :)

teachers have my respect. I couldn't do that job, but I don't get paid half what they do either.

You should try working for a boss who put four sales managers and three controllers out the door in four years. ...

Can you not see that we all need to unite? Do you not realize that the bottom 80% of people own just 7% of the wealth? [US figures]

We are, by fighting between ourselves and against ourselves, playing their stratified class warfare game. It works only in the interests of the 1%ers (and even that is questionable).

The teacher is getting screwed. The sales guy is getting screwed. The homeless, the poor, the under-employed, the disabled, the natives, the women, the mentally ill, the cabbie, the dentist, the doctor, the cop, the soldier, the lawyer, the road builder, the ferry operator, ad nauseam ... we are ALL being oppressed, and there is no need for it.

We are the majority.

We need to become the REVOLUTIONARY Majority.

I invite you and all to try to earnestly see that we must stop this desire to step on the 'poor slob one rung below' or to 'throw the ingrate standing a run or two up off' to sooth our inner sense of helplessness.

This social cancer of plutocracy, or bourgeois capitalism at all costs, cannot ever be solved using the same thinking we have been using.

The thing is; when the money runs out, the money runs out.

The money does not run out, ever. It gets redirected to the top, relentlessly if possible.

Where it goes from there is into controlling government to sell us on its legitimacy, propping up a system of division between the people, scapegoating phantom enemies to explain away the misdirection and larceny of wealth from labour, extensive and relentless propaganda campaigns, elite private pockets and into the hammer called warfare and all it entails.

The Liberals seem to have the majority support for now (but not mine, I hasten to add).

A majority is 50% plus 1. No Party or government in Canada has anywhere near that support. The governments are all pluralities, and ONLY offer rule of the minority.

When the people accept anything other than that clear understanding of the word 'majority', it only goes to blur their vision about what is going on. And for this reason it is abundantly obvious why the state propagates such nonsense.

Igbymac: I agree on the uniting thing but

Ontario just voted Liberal for a change, and BC is due for a change too. No one would be happier than me to hand the BC Liberals their ass on a plate. It still won't change things much, I am afraid. The public purse is only so deep and paying teachers more money does not constitute the redistribution of wealth.

In Nanaimo, the RDN did a demographic survey some years ago. The income distribution historgram was like a camel's back with two humps. One hump was around the $20 kpa mark and the other at the $70 kpa mark. There was a trough in between. That puts teachers in the upper end of the income graph. To redistribute the wealth, we need to address those in the $20 kpa zone, not those who are already at the top.

Sure there are people making more than teachers, but there are many who live well below the poverty line, myself included.

Someone in the education thread was invoking the proletariat ideal. Teachers are not proles, they are professionals. We do not live in the early industrial revolution; even the poorest of us has access to better healtchare and social assistance than our ancestors dreamt of. Crying, begging and demanding more is not the answer.

Anyone wanna buy a Greek battleship?

Igbymac: I agree on the uniting thing but

Ontario just voted Liberal for a change, and BC is due for a change too. No one would be happier than me to hand the BC Liberals their ass on a plate. It still won't change things much, I am afraid. The public purse is only so deep and paying teachers more money does not constitute the redistribution of wealth.

In Nanaimo, the RDN did a demographic survey some years ago. The income distribution historgram was like a camel's back with two humps. One hump was around the $20 kpa mark and the other at the $70 kpa mark. There was a trough in between. That puts teachers in the upper end of the income graph. To redistribute the wealth, we need to address those in the $20 kpa zone, not those who are already at the top.

Sure there are people making more than teachers, but there are many who live well below the poverty line, myself included.

Someone in the education thread was invoking the proletariat ideal. Teachers are not proles, they are professionals. We do not live in the early industrial revolution; even the poorest of us has access to better healtchare and social assistance than our ancestors dreamt of. Crying, begging and demanding more is not the answer.

Anyone wanna buy a Greek battleship?

Is a revolution in thinking on the horizon?

Although many folks realize that the course we’re on … depleting non-renewables, polluting the environment, focusing on economic and population growth, and waging war … is taking us over a cliff, they seem unable to make the necessary changes in their own lives that would help take them along a new path to the future. Individual inability to make these changes is driven by a reality that goes deeper than class, race and culture. It requires more than “ a revolution of thought” or a fundamental change in our way of thinking.

A change that wants to shift control of the economic system … capitalist or socialist … from the elite to the working class, cooperative or not, is not a change in the way we think, it’s simply a relocation of the seat of power and control. Once the working class has eaten the rich the struggle for dominance will begin anew. No doubt there will be a change, but it won’t be a change in thinking. And all of the problems that preceded the shift in power will still threaten our future.

Without doubt, changing course will not be a simple, painless event. It requires looking past the faulting and blaming of others in society and turning the mirror on our self. It requires solutions that place barriers that don’t interfere with fulfilling basic biological needs. It requires the acceptance of logical outcomes (we live in a world with a finite supply of resources), including the history that has determined those outcomes. But more importantly, in order to realize the changes we’re after we first have to understand the thinking that got us here and that requires understanding why we think the way we do. And nothing I’ve seen or read tells me that’s on the radar: working class or otherwise.

Fish-Counter

"The thing is; when the money runs out, the money runs out."

Where does it go? to the Martians? Venusians?

The money is still on the planet, it circulates. Its just in different hands.

KWD, as for the approaching change

... or ideas about it, I suggest you read the last couple of chapters of Howard Zinn's book A People's History*. It certainly lays out some ideas on this matter.

Further, I have to question your notion that "we live in a world with a finite supply of resources".

Matter can become energy and energy can become matter; resources are matter; matter is made up of energy; the sun emits a continuous stream of energy into our world; does it not follow that the resources of our world are not finite?

*the entire book is worth the read.

"Matter can become energy and

"Matter can become energy and energy can become matter"....something all religious/ideological/economic theories have been trying to overrule since the beginning, causing the horrible repetitions of history .

The ruling sectors of ideologies have always been "created by God" , now by the Money God, "created from the air, creating wealth"

Wealth can not be created only taken.....

Ed Deak.

We are moving into metaphysics folks

Where does the money go, you ask? Well it isn't going down a black hole, nor to a wealthy elite in Canada.

The wealth we used to enjoy is going to China, India and a host of other countries that have a 5-9% GDP growth. It isn't even a Zero Sum Game any more. Canada, the U.S. and European countries are surrendering their futures to countries where they are not afraid to burn coal for energy and pay their workers pennies per hour.

I do not like that any more than you do, but I recognise reality when I see it. Teachers are still acting out a 1950's-style game called Squeaky Wheel. Their demands were egregious and they have yet to state their wage target.

If teachers were arguing for their kids, and limiting class sizes to 20 students, I would be 100% on their side but that is not the case.

They want a month off every year for sick leave, and six months off to care for a sick person who may not even be a family member.

That is just plain sick. It is narcissism gone beserk. If they had been serious they would have been at the table all summer. There wasn't a peep about this in July and early August.

If I wanted to be totally reactionary and make a 1950's slur, I might say that the BCTF is run by women, and that they have lost it. None of which has anything to do with Greece.

Fish counter

You're right about one thing - this thread is about Greece....let's slowly look back up the comments to find out who brought up 'teachers' and the BCTF in the first place.

It was YOU my friend - and I'm really sorry about your work experiences - but, if you had any real 'respect' for teachers and their job you wouldn't have written the kind of bitter and vituperative things you have about a job whose difficulty and importance makes your little problems shrink by comparison.

Take the effort, go into the schools and find out - the challenge is still there. No offence, but you don't know what you're talking about - with respect to teachers and schools or Greece.

igbymac

Thanks for the ‘read Zinn’ suggestion. I will.

The idea that the continuous stream of solar energy will allow us to carry on with the life styles we’ve become accustomed to, even if we do manage to change our thinking, is problematic. It assumes technological change will solve the environmental calamity and resource depletion issues we presently face, and will also allow us to continue eating the earth to maintain those lifestyles.

The evidence to date tells me that is not happening.

However, if you believe a much-reduced global population, living less luxurious lifestyles, will survive by using direct and indirect methods of capturing solar energy, I don’t disagree. The big question is: How do we get there from here? The notion that we can rationalize our way to a much-reduced population with a minimal amount of pain must be viewed in conjunction with the fact that, globally, arms manufacturing and security are growth industries.

Elvis has left the building

and Icarus is awfully close to the sun....

Fish-counter

Fish-counter,

Our government is grounded on the ideas of neo-conservatism. To address the BC teacher issue here, keep in mind that the neo-con objective is to 'defund the left' for the poor have no say (or so they believe). The 'left' being anything for the 'common good' and state controlled or directed.

This 'defund the left' project was a very open plan within the halls of power entering the Reagan years. It began with Howard Phillips back in the early-mid 1970s; Jack Abramoff, lobbyist and convicted felon, being one of his disciples, FYI.

One of its approaches was to demoralize and privatize the bureaucracy (outsourcing); and to fill all the liberal-minded sectors of government like labour, education, environmental protection, health, etc with incompetent partisan appointees who would intentionally run these branches into the ground.

Once broken and incompetent, the state could point a finger and say 'look, government ruins everything; only the private sector can operate efficiently'.

And this remains the US government's goal: Privatization.

So we turn back to Canada, and we see it is invariably following the US approach to governance. The assault against the teachers in BC is part of the 'defund the left' program, allowing government to shift it toward privatization (much like it has done with BC Ferries, IPP Energy, BC Rail.)

Fish-counter, you talk about the double bubble, the $20k crowd and the $70k crowd and, from below, the $70k crowd looks pretty opulent. You are targeting the wrong people, for the fix is in at the top. The are eating their way north, starting at the bottom and gaining momentum.

The folks at the $20-70k region are feeling the bite - losing their savings, their job security, their hope in the future. The folks below have never had such luxuries. And now we hear rumblings of the same from the $70-200k crowd.
Everyone is potentially and invariably prey when business interests are both the owners and clients of government.

Try Thomas Frank's polemic, The Wrecking Crew. It goes into shocking depth about how conservatism has crawled into government and bought control. Cheers.

KWD, keeping to the maths :)

The idea that the continuous stream of solar energy will allow us to carry on with the life styles we’ve become accustomed to, even if we do manage to change our thinking, is problematic

I absolutely agree. My only point was your maths was suspect. ;)

[I admit it is easy to run with the idea that we have steady stream energy coming our way so. 'why worry?'. A huge error as you pointed out.]

Of course there is going to be a lot of pain to get onto a sustainable course of existence, but the alternative is far worse. We have to accept that reality, and to know the state will fight back with far more might that we have ever witnessed. It's what Empire's tend to do as they collapse.

A good article from the Portland OWS Rally, written by a public defender, warns the attending people about state power.

Part One: A) It Is Going To Hurt. B) Jail Deputies Will Be Looking In Your Ass. C) No One Will Care.

And this is just the start. But the more people we can mobilize, the less likely the violence can be sustained. Even soldiers have a hard time killing their friends and parents and brothers and sisters.

Much of the present energy

Much of the present energy use is going into, and demanded for the "creation" of waste, to jack up the GDP, forced urbanization, unnecessary commuting and the transport of goods that can be made locally with fractions of the energy inputs.

Decent living for everybody, based on local economies, can be achieved with much lower energy use and waste.

Let's not get into the claims that products imported from China and India are "cheaper", because it can be proven that, on the long run, they're far more expensive in physical and human rights, in other words in real and not imaginary monetary terms.

And once again, let's look at the crap being taught in our universities as "economics", nothing but ideological propaganda to mislead people into servitude based on beliefs and not on realities.

Ed Deak.

Nice job.

Great piece, Mitch. In fact, beyond arms dealers, a whole range of German firms have benefitted from Greek debt, loaned from German banks for the purchase of German goods and services. And, as you point out, we can rest assured that when the death spiral of austerity and ever-falling demand places the wreckage of Greece into official default, as it inevitable must, those banks will be bailed out in full, no strings attached. Germany has done very well having Greece on the Euro – the same Euro that now prevents Greece from taking the measures to repair its economy, such as devaluing of its currency – and now it wants to cut Greece loose in some bigoted narrative of teutonic prudence and industriousness versus Mediterranean profligacy and indolence

The bigger issue, of course, is why sovereign governments raise public debt exclusively through the private sector, anyway. Governments, through their central banks, loan to private banks (at zero percent or close to it) who then loan the same money back to those same governments – only at a far higher rate. Not only would it be far cheaper for states to borrow directly from their own central banks, it also would have the happy consequence that the funds would return to the public treasury, instead of further inflating the already overstuffed pockets of bankers and bondholders. The so-called “golden age” that followed WWII and lasted until the 1970s when neoliberalism took over, and which saw the greatest increase in the living standards of ordinary people in history, was to a significant degree fuelled by such a strategy.

I have a great affinity for Greece and the Greek people, and it kills me to see what’s those fucking vulture banksters are doing to that country.

Greg

Frank - What about Manitoba??

For some reason no one in this blog has congratulated the Manitoba NDP for their recent victory. I find that a little odd.

Perhaps it's because if you or the likes of GWest were to gloat about their success you'd have to address some of their policies which must make your collective blood boil.

For example. The vast majority of corporations in Manitoba pay over 18% less income tax than they would in BC.

The poor pay about 5% more tax in Manitoba than in BC and the rich in Manitoba pay about 2% more than those in BC.

Perhaps I've answered my own question. These aren't your kind of socialists, are they?

Good point, John Corman

"[N]o one in this blog has congratulated the Manitoba NDP for their recent victory ... Perhaps I've answered my own question. These aren't your kind of socialists, are they?"

No, they aren't.

They are, however, your kind of 'socialist'. The kind of welfare state capitalist you love to target as the 'bad guy' to move your neo-con conservatism further right. Your 'utopian Saipan' is just around the corner where all fascists are welcome. All it need do is just convince a few more dull-thinking fools how 'freedom' can only mean 'freedom for business interests'.

John Corrma

Three points:

1. This is not a blog;
2. The subject of this particular article is Greece;
3. The Manitoba NDP were congratulated on another story the night of their victory.

You should pay closer attention.
In fact, if you had paid some attention you'd have noted that G West made the point that the Manitoba NDP had actually gained a seat over their pre-election standing.

Try to keep up.

John Corman

"For some reason no one in this blog has congratulated the Manitoba NDP for their recent victory. I find that a little odd."

I find it odd that you missed it. We talked about it on another thread. Not sure why you thought a thread about Greece was the place we'd discuss Manitoba.

"Perhaps it's because if you or the likes of GWest were to gloat about their success you'd have to address some of their policies which must make your collective blood boil."

I did gloat about their success. And I don't have any problem with Maniboa's policies. All political parties position themselves to win elections among the people of a particular political entitity.

The Manitoba NDP is not trying to win elections anywhere but Manitoba.

"Perhaps I've answered my own question. These aren't your kind of socialists, are they?"

Are they your kind of capitalists? Because if you read Manitoba newspapers as I do you'd find angry right-wing Manitobans calling them socialists.

That's good enough for me.

John Corman

By the way, I assume the Saskatchewan Party isn't your kind of Conservative?

I'm sure the Alberta Conservatives are no longer your kind of Conservative since they're now moving visibly to the Left eh?

Premier Danny Williams certainly wasn't your kind of Conservative was he? He didn't even vote for Harper.

Hudak and the Ontario Conservatives had lots of nice left-wing policies in their platform too.

Is there a single Conservative party in Canada you're happy with?

Fish-counter says ...

"If you want to see how the other side lives, go to Greece and stay there."

Likewise, if you want to see how your conservatism plays out, the ideas you champion without ever thinking clearly through, go to Iraq.

There, in Baghdad, you will find the bastion of neo-conervatism and its imposition of free market thinking from top to bottom. This IS your sad and dangerous utopia of thought.