Don't know about your thesis, Bill...

...but it's fun to speculate. I think Ameilia's got it right.

But for now, we'll watch the circus in accord with another quote from Yes Minister:

"Politicians must be allowed to panic. They need activity. It is their substitute for achievement."

Another bit of wisdom..

...from Yes Minister:

"Ministers have an enviable intellectual suppleness and moral maneuverability. Translation: You can't trust them further than you can throw them."

I think we're watching that moral maneuverability right now with the minimum wage proposals. Imagine! Servers get a lower wage scale than everyone else living below the poverty line - for what? Because they might get tips? Because they're Martians? Because they don't eat? It can't be because of the work - I've seen servers put more work into an 8-hour day than some housebuilders, scientists and politicians.

Anyone who's visited a McDonald's in the last few years let me know how many tip jars you've found.

McDonalds isn't licensed

The 9$ an hour applies to liquor servers only. Same as Ontario and Quebec.

happy - you missed the point

Here it is again:

Servers get a lower wage scale than everyone else living below the poverty line - for what? Because they might get tips? Because they're Martians? Because they don't eat? It can't be because of the work - I've seen servers put more work into an 8-hour day than some housebuilders, scientists and politicians.

Anyone who's visited a McDonald's in the last few years let me know how many tip jars you've found.

Tell me my friend, how does someone like you justify paying liquor servers less because - as the sell MORE booze - they might attract a few tips?

I thought right wingers were into the 'responsible' use of alcohol.

Apparently not.

As for what Ontario and Quebec do - give me a fucking break. This is meant to be the 'best place on earth' remember?

Fact is, in very many ways - especially in terms of how working people are paid relative to what it costs to live here - it's the worst place on earth.

This has to be the most schizophrenic government I've ever heard of.

On the one hand we reduce the blow level to .05 - pile on the HST - decimate the restaurant and hospitality industry AND THEN CREATE A SITUATION (which isn't a temporary training wage) to encourage servers to flog the stuff in order to try and make ends meet.

FUCKING unbelievable!

Mr West

You certainly can put words in peoples mouths.

I merely point out that the lower rate was for one particular group of servers, not all as zalm appeared to be implying. I didn't advance an opinion on what I thought about it period, nor try to justify anything. You did that for me, but I'm used to it and pay no attention.

And your argument makes no sense. They will now be making MORE than they used to, so how does that translate into "encourage servers to flog the stuff in order to try and make ends meet."(?) That seems backwards to me.

Lets just cut to the chase shall we. This (minimum wage) could have been one of the few "wedge issues" the NDP could have exploited come election time.
Now that rugs been yanked out, including the training wage.
And thats the real reason you're pissed off.

Or is that putting words in your mouth?

happy

I think zalm's point was entirely clear and transparent...

The other point you seem to have missed was that the $6/hr slave rate had one tiny difference - IT WAS a TEMPORARY - so-called training wage.

The $9/hr rate is permanent. Servers - who want to keep eating and paying their rent are still being asked to supplement their wage slavery by 'pushing' booze ....Is that so hard to understand?

NOBODY CAN LIVE DECENTLY ON THAT WAGE!

On your last point - hardly. Ms Clark's government is going to have to run on its record - relative to providing decent wages for anyone other than the BC Liberal's friends and handlers it isn't going to be hard to make that point in the election - whenever it comes.

Had Clark the balls to raise the minimum wage to $10.25 tomorrow - you might have a point.

Fact is, she's still pandering.

Zalm understands that - others, apparently, don't.

BTW - I guess you're overjoyed by the fact that our former national carrier seems committed to moving more maintenance work off-shore. I assume you noticed that too?

rug pulled?

Somehow I don't think the NDP minds being proven right and the Liberals admitting that all their blather on the subject for the last 10 years was just bs that they didn't believe themselves.

GuyInVic posted on the Hook a quote from the Liberal website that is pretty funny to read in light of the change :

According to a recent article on the BC Liberal government website: " the NDP’s proposal to increase the minimum wage would result in up to 52,000 jobs lost. The report goes on to say that “Increasing B.C.’s minimum wage to $10 per hour will have a profoundly negative effect on employment opportunities for young and low-skill workers, and will have almost no effect on those most in need of income and a job.” Only the NDP would think adding $450 million in new costs on small business, destroying over 50,000 jobs and introducing polices that will have a “profoundly negative effect on employment” would somehow “stimulate B.C.’s economy.”

Somewhere "Winston" is writing that we're at war with East Asia, not Eurasia, and that's always been the case if you look at the revised history books.

Oh good lord

"pushing booze" Such drama. So somehow customers will now be forced to swig a few more than they would have before the servers got this dollar an hour raise. They won't be able to say no thanks anymore, I've had enough.
OK then.
Then you go to demand the rate should have been raised to 10.25 immediately or she's just "pandering"
Yet in your previous post you accused the libs of "decimating" the hospitality industry.
Yet now you declare that that same industry which is decimated should be forced to increase thier payrolls by over 25% overnight, yet somehow that won't have any detrimental effect.
Again. OK then.
Tell you what, get your new alpha male NDP leader to make that an election issue. I dare ya.

Hey Frank, you know its all politics. Just like the NDP tries to promote that they are "business friendly" these days, which was started under CJ. Does that mean the libs were proven right? Same thing. Politics.

Not at all.

I've been pushing for an increase in the minimum wage here at Tyee for years...Clark promised to do it in her campaign for leader and now she's come up with another idiotic two-tier program like the 'training wage'.

Plus, she hasn't shown the balls to actually make the increase NOW, remember?

Of course the Libs have decimated the hospitality industry - you can't have missed this?

Ian Tostenson, President of the B.C. Restaurant and Foodservices Association said on CHNL radio today that, “You could see a net decrease of restaurants, and I would say anywhere from 10 to 20 per cent of that 12,000 could just evaporate in the first quarter of 2011.”

As for alpha male NDPers - don't think that dog will hunt...I was at a Mike Farnsworth event the other night and, if he's the leader after April 17, don't expect any fireworks from that department.

If I had any influence with the party the leader who got us to 47% in the polls would still be in charge.

What a joke!

But, it ain't just politics, it's peoples' lives and childrens' futures and the Liberals have NEVER put those values on a par with helping their business friends increase their profits.

I take it you've noticed how bird dog Christy is chasing the "Prosperity" mine bone all the way to Pee Wee's Playhouse?

And, I hope you've noticed Pee Wee doesn't think government's should be building sports palaces (or removing their roofs) either.

How's she gonna square that circle?

So what do you want then?

You want the min wage increased to 10.25 NOW, for all workers, then post a blurb from the hospitality industry claiming the increase will cause undue hardship.
So which is it? Choose one.
You also mentioned the new drinking standards helped decimate the industry. (I remember the same thing being said about the smoking laws)
Do you think the drinking level should be raised back up then? The only province that still uses .08 is Quebec.
I agree with you (!) about Carole. At the same time the only person in the NDP hunt that is the slightest bit palatable to myself, and therefore most likely to gain market share among undecideds, is Farnsworth. He's your best bet.
Yes, I noticed the Prosperity mine. What you left out was that the mining company is now saying they won't drain the lake and a more expensive option for the tailing ponds is now on the table. I read numerous comments here prior to the cons denying the application saying we aren't against a mine, just against wrecking the lake. So.....
And finally....you truly do make me smile. If Harper had gone to Quebec City and promised millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars to build an arena for privately owned professional sports teams I can just hear you now. You'd be singing the complete opposite tune, that public funds have no place being wasted on millionaire atheletes and thier billionaire owners who can damn well pay thier own way or get the hell out. Right?

Pandering

Telling voters converstiaon to HST was not on the radar before the election, but rolling out the plans 3 days after.

Lowering corporate tax rates, despite a drop in corporate and resource revenues, and a corresponding increase in expenses.

Passing an environmental review of a mine proposal that even the most right-wing national government Canada has seen in nearly a hundred years rejected on environmental grounds.

Voting en bloc in the affirmative to every deranged proposal to issue from the mouth of ones of the nastiest premiers this province has seen since James Dunsmuir.

Using tortuous logic to justify raising the minimum wage from the lowest in the country to... the lowest in the country, except for servers of alcohol who remain... the lowest in the country.

I think pretty much everyone who's lived here a few years recognizes pandering when they see it. The only question is, how thick do the Coke-bottle glasses have to be for the few die-hard neocons left in this province to see it too?

Nobel Prize-winners

Here's a (short) list of Nobel Prize-winning economists who say that minimum wages in a variety of jurisdictions are too low, and can and should be raised to the general benefit, rather than detriment, to the economy:
- Kenneth Arrow (Stanford)
- Lawrence Klein (U of Penn)
- Robert Solow (MIT)
- Joseph Stiglitz (Columbia)
- Clive Granger (UCSD)
- Paul Krugman
- Amyarta Sen
- James Tobin
- Elinor Ostrom
- Edmund S. Phelps

I'm sure there are more, if anyone cared to look.

Someone's out of step, here....

happy

What's sauce for the goose my friend. I was simply trying to illustrate the disconnect between Pee Wee's policy of NOT PAYING FOR sportspalaces at exactly the same time that the Clark/Campbell government IS PAYING a hell of a lot of taxpayer dollars for a removable top for BC Place...

As for the other point - nobody's going out of business because of the minimum wage - they are going out of business because of the .05 AND the HST.

We'll soon be rid of the HST...

You're right I'd slam Pee Wee if he finds a way to pay for Quebec City's new skating rink - but don't expect me not to slam Campbell/Clark for not having the tiny bit of good sense Pee Wee does.

Give the son of a bitch a majority and all bets are off.

We need an Edit function - and not just for my spelling mistakes

Ater I posted West I realized that was what you meant. But too late.
The two aren't a straight comparison though, apples and oranges, your point is taken. However you can't just say the NDP wouldn't have done exactly the same thing. They aren't shy with that type of mega project, nor big casinos either. Remeber the plans for the Wynn casino where the new convention center now is? And it was they that initiated the Olympics.
The .05's not going anywhere, like I said the only province out of step on that one is Quebec. I love the place but....I've been scared silly driving there too.
I'm not so sure Harper will get a majority, they keep shooting themselves in the foot too. Seems to be infecting a broad range of politicians lately, as we have seen locally also.

Examples, please?

Of Projects comparable to BC Place and/or its stupid roof.

I'm talking about building infrastructure for the sole purpose of assisting privately owned business to make or increase profits.

As for the .05 thing - why would it need to 'go' anywhere? Polecat Coleman made it clear he wants people to ignore it anyway - my understanding is that the promotion of that whole idea came from Margaret McDiarmid in cabinet.

And you know what Miss Christy did to her.

heh

There is absolutely no chance of this passing as long as the Liberals are in power. This is just a ruse by the Liberals to make you think they care and to try to garner your vote. Don't be a fool.

Already gave you an example

Olympics. NDP brainchild. That they didn't complete the job is beside the point. If re-elcted they would have. And would have with gusto.
BC Place is, of course, publically owned and is rented out to the private sector for many events, not just football games. Trade shows, concerts, etc, etc. Theres no free ride like you are trying to imply.
Coleman toldd us to "ignore" the new laws? Oh I gotta see that.

Another quick example

Just off the top of my head....how about Laxton?
That "infrastructure" wasn't even in this country for crying out loud, never mind this province.

And besides West

I'll keep thinking on it, but in the meantime...you never had issues with spending on big infrastructure projects before as long as the money was spent in province.
Yes, the ferries. A great deal of the money sqaundered on the cats wasn't spent in this province. The biggest single expense on them was the engines. Manufactured in....Germany.
The ROI on them was pretty much net zero.
BC Place has ben generating revenue and providing jobs since 1985.
The roof had to be replaced no matter what. That they chose the most expensive option could be debated, but not the fact it had to be done. And if you'd like to explain how the roof could be replaced without involving the private sector doing it, and yes, actually wanting to make a profit on it rather than out of the goodness of thier hearts, and how the NDP would have done it somehow differntly, I'm all eyes.

last shot

As I'll be checking out after this...
You wanted examples of:

"building infrastructure for the sole purpose of assisting privately owned business to make or increase profits."

Well, apart from Laxton there isn't really anything that falls within those narrow paramaters. As BC Place is a public asset I assume you are referring to the construction firms as the private business making a profit. That would be PCL contractors, an Alberta based firm.
The same PCL contractors that built the new Island Highway, and the Mellinium line?
In the 90's.
The same PCL that CUPE and the HEU hired to build thier new Burnaby offices?
Is that what you were getting at?

outa here, Cheers