Should be easier

I believe it should be easier to recall MLA's. If they are part of a government that LIES, CHEATS, IS DECEITFUL, like this current LIbERal government, then they, if they support the lies, cheating and deceit, deserve to be recalled. They weren't elected for those reasons. They were elected because of the party platform. If they uphold the platform they shouldn't fear. If they don't, then I say "watchout"!

yes it should be much easier

If anyone in BC, or Canada, for that matter, had doubts about the assertion that politicians serve only themselves, here is proof, in the form of admissions in public, revealed by former politicians themselves, that this is indeed the case; politicians do not give one iota about any constituents. The party system clearly does not work for ordinary Canadians any longer and most likely never did function very well.

This is clear evidence that we cannot expect change in our voting system to come from politicians themselves; we the voters will have to force the issue. This political revolution will come either peacefully through debate or civil unrest; one only needs to look at history to see which is the more effective solution. One way or another change will come…..

The long outdated British Parliamentary system we refuse to change, or even debate changing, creates this mindset in the politicians we vote into power. Unless change comes forward, or we have serious debate on change of political structure, within a generation this country will not be worth living in any longer.

Whether politicians like recall or dislike recall is a moot point; they are in the position to serve us the voters. Wages for these people? Perhaps tied to performance. A pension for these people? Sure the same rate of pension as the voting public receives.

A soon to be senior, I

A soon to be senior, I contrary to the words of our MLA ,I' fond of direct democracy and from down here in the trenchs;as long as our other MLA is'nt around it's safe!Yes I'm from Kamloops.An observation from ANIMAL FARM ,when the pigs say"Some animals are more equal than others "May be take it with a grain of salt and sharpen up the carving knives! Recall ,vote ,it's your RIGHT as a citizen

BC's Boston Tea Party

History tells us that "taxation without representation' eventually leads to revolution (as the Boston tea party did) How can Ida Chong be a 'good MLA' when she is imposing taxation which she, through her party promised not to do. Recall and initiatives could be next election's big issue. At least we can question what a politician's 'promise' means.

Hello!

Under the arguments presented by the folks against recall in the article there would never be a case where recall was valid. If supporting an offensive government policy, as judged by your constituents, and then failing to do anything about it when your constituents express their opinion isn't a personal failure to do the job, what the bloody hell is?

Recall and Initiative legislation were approved by the people under the Socreds. The NDP simply followed the directions they received from the electorate. Who is now going to reverse it and pay the political price? It would be better to live with it and make sure that each MLA understands that whenever the kiss the leaders butt, they may be held to account.

That is what is happening to Ida Chong.

Recall changes the political system

There are arguments for recall, but the argument that it somehow empowers "the people" is phoney. "The people" aren't political actors - groups of people are. What recall did in the HST case was to allow a retired politician, Vander Zalm, and a columnist, Tielman, both unelected of course, to form a group to frustrate the will of the elected provincial parliament. Maybe that's a good thing in this case. But it also allow lots of unelected groups - industry groups, union groups, church groups, etc. - to organize and limit the legislature. Look at California. I think you get better results sticking to a pretty pure parliamentary system - that is, more peace, order, and good government - than you do by throwing unelected lobby groups (and that's what they are) into the mix. But be clear: referendum legislation doesn't empower "the people" in any direct way; it gives groups power to appeal to (or manipulate) the people.

Manipulate DNA?

You mean like the PAB with our tax dollars? Isn't recall just organizing and making orderly a protest movement? Isn't that Democracy in action?

This Is The Most Idiotic Thing I've Read In The Past Hour

"We brought it in with a very, very high level, hoping that, well we sort of did it but they won't do it. I think it should be restricted to very serious, like fraud, criminal acts of an MLA," Waddell said.

I would like to think that if it were a case of fraud or a criminal act, that laws already in place would take care of the offender without the need for the nearly impossible to achieve recall process.

Adrian Dix was very clear

Adrian Dix was very clear about the HST yesterday. when he wins the job of opposition leader , then forms government, the HST will be gone. I like over 700,thousand other citizens voted against the HST and the government started to stick handle, and continue to try to manipulate the fact that the tax payers didn't like getting blindsided, and treated like sheep. If the politicians, and ex politicians don't like the idea of recall, lets not forget it was they who voted to have it. Mind you Ujjal and the rest of the committee made it as difficult as possible to have it work. Gordo is gone, the referendum has been moved forward but nothing says the next Liberal won't change Gordo's decision so expect to see more recalls till the HST is finally GONE. Politicians seem to believe they had some divine right to do what they want , ignore what they want and drop by once every four years to get us to vote for them. Rest of the time, well folks don't bother us.

what a rant!

I've never liked Miller, or Smith, or Ramsay, or Waddell for that matter. But how nice to see them effectively pricking Tieleman's recall balloon with solid arguments against this widespread recall movement.

We have representative democracy in this country -- not government by plebiscite. Government by plebiscite, rather than empowering the people as Tieleman suggests, empowers only the demagogues. The anti-HST fight is a classic example of that, and it scares me that so many people couldn't see through that. Carried to its extreme, government by plebiscite results in paralysis, just like it has in California.

I wonder if Tieleman and his cronies have ever considered that government by plebiscite might bring back such progressive policies as the death penalty.

what democracy?

Either the elected politicians perform the tasks as wished by the voting public or they don’t have a job period.

Can anyone here go to their employment position and lie and cheat their way through the day? You’ll be standing in an unemployment line of you do.

In British Columbia we are going to continue with the Recall. If one does not like this step aside and watch.

British Columbians are fed up.

British Columbians are angry.

British Columbians want this fixed; not tomorrow, not next week, TODAY…. NOW…….

Call it whatever you like; government by plebiscite, demagogue groups, whatever label you like is fine.

Paralysis of government is good too. Maybe once paralyzed, these idiot politicians and the majority of asleep voters will finally get the idea. Now go back and read what I stated in my previous posting. Either change comes or change is forced…..take your pick but it is going to happen.

Two main issues made the BC voter angry. The HST and the BC Rail deal. Lots of other issues too but these are the ones that got under everyone’s skin.

Representative democracy? Who are you kidding? Read Canadian political history from 1832; the same names come up all the time; Mc Donald, Thompson, Campbell… you live in an oligarchy not a democracy.

You can be a part of it or you can remove yourself.

Hmm, let me see...

I don't do my job, or don't make my clients happy (or if I screw up big time), and I don't get paid or get fired/disciplined. No waiting or "well, you signed off, so you have to keep your job." I'd bet money that most people's jobs are similar to this.

So what the politicians are effectively saying is that they should have free rein and no accountability to their bosses, the public. Riiiigggghhhht. Lying scumbags.

recall more valid than election, based on numbers

For those opposing the validity of recall, including the politicians mentioned in the article or those who consider recall to be a "plebiscite", please take a look at the following:

2009 Elections BC Oak Bay/Gordon Head results:
66.86% of eligible voters voted (25645/38415)
of which Ida Chong received 46.53% (11877 votes).....which represents 30.91% support from eligible voters.

A successful recall to turf Ida Chong requires support from 60% of eligible voters in the riding: this means there would be two times as many people wanting Ida out now as voted her in.

So: which carries more of a mandate and is more truly representative of the wishes of citizens? Someone who spews false promises and is being elected by a low minority of the population, or that a solid majority turf an MLA out due to their actual track record or the actions of their party?

Does it not seem absurd that twice as many people are needed to remove someone from office as are needed to elect them in the first place? Of course the recall legislation was designed not to succeed - and a lot of folks who thought themselves untouchable are quaking in their shoes that we the citizens might be turning the tables on them.

I sincerely hope at least one recall succeeds - for many reasons, but mostly to prove to our elected representatives that they will be held accountable for their actions.

@ blackie

Solid arguments? I think Bill Tieleman blows all of them right out of the water. One would think that if the media held all governments accountable throughout their mandate we might not need a recall option. With the complete lack of scrutiny by the corporate media (they even donate to the liberals) recall is the best insurance because it is all we got.

In the above piece and in the quotes Brian Smith, Dan Miller, Ian Waddel and Paul Ramsay all forgot about that. Currently in BC, if you are a right-wing government, you get a four year mandate to do as you please and then get help to get re-elected. Now you want to get rid of the only other method the public has to keep them honest?

As Bill states: "Those politicians who fight all day in the legislature close ranks quickly to oppose any threat to their privileged existence." How true it is.

just thinking....

Lot's hope this controversy does not become the focus of attention in the next election. This could be used as a red herring, allowing candidates and the public to avoid really big issues like child poverty, homelessness,and privatisation. Let's get and keep the Liberals record front and center.

There is one really positive thing about Recall.

It is that those clowns, like Kevin Falcon, who abused the process back in the 90's when there were no specific grievances against those being recalled, other than they won by slim margins, are now getting a taste of their own medicine. This time they have cause to squirm because the HST is a lightening rod.

It couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch of sanctimonious hypocrites.

DE-MOCK-RACY

That's what we should be calling our present" representative System". Our reprehensible, non-representing MLA's must follow the edicts of the "party" they were elected under. When that "party" breaks their promise to the voters, the "voters" representative must what?

"Recall" is a tool that works very well in Switzerland. Why does it work? Because their politicians, going in, already know that the citizens have control. That is why they don't do anything stupid like our "Lieberals" have done here.

Even though Swiss recall is so much easier than "our" draconian legislation, how many recalls do they have?

Not many, their politicians know off the top, when their elected, that they must do their job for the voters, "not for the party". The party should only represent a fundamental ideology that our candidates subscribe to, not an "oligarchy" that our candidate must obey.

Blackie said...

"We have representative democracy in this country -- not government by plebiscite. ... The anti-HST fight is a classic example of that, and it scares me that so many people couldn't see through that."

What scares me, perhaps more than that, is that so many people couldn't see through the Liberal agenda, and voted them in not once, but twice.

Bill

You were making sense until you said:
"Oh, I see. Politicians who are better than voters, smarter than voters and more committed than voters will decide major questions for us"

No you don't see anything. Politicians who study the issues, take presentations from opposing sides, will weigh the costs and benefits to each, and then act with their own constituency in mind will decide major questions for us.

Yes, there will be some dishonest ones among them who act not with bias, but with prejudice. I think we're all stocked up on them, so I've less trepidation about this initial foray into so-called "representational democracy" you so ignorantly persist in marketing, than I will twenty years from now when every succeeding government has fallen two years into their mandates by willy-nilly and vengeful recall campaigns organized by well-funded lobby groups.

Democracy does not consist in saying "No, no, no, a thousand times NO!" to every legislative proposal that comes along that you don't happen to agree with. Yes, lying to the public should be a crime, but as long as you can't get any agreement on what constitutes lying to the public, we'll all simply have to go back to the drawing board and elect a better class of representative from a different class of people to give voice and vote to our collective wishes. You own thumb-fingered assistance notwithstanding, some form of prop-rep makes a better case for legislative reform than anything you've written here.

Meanwhile, happy goldfish bowl to you - you've earned the right to be on display, and so have we all. Let's just not be too smug about those who oppose us - sometimes they have more self-effacing reasons than you might expect.

rantnic

""Recall" is a tool that works very well in Switzerland. "

I am not aware of any recall legislation operating in Switzerland, nor of any politicians so recalled. Your source, please.

Our real enemy

...is apathy.
I'm in favour of giving 16-year-olds the vote too - they might exercise it more responsibly than we think.

For sure, over half of you aren't exercising your vote responsibly at all because you're not voting. Ignorance of the issues or lack of interest is no excuse, like ignorance of gum disease or lack of interest in your mouth is no excuse for not going to the dentist. And general claims of "disgust at politicians of all stripes" is simply dishonest, and should have been outgrown somewhere around Grade 10. There is always someone who can speak exactly to your issues. Your mission: find her, or run yourself.

I'm for a revision to the voting order, including heavier taxes on those who don't vote or otherwise participate in the governing process.

Obviously the innocent MLA,

... (though there in no such beast in the bobble-headed, non-representatve Party politic of Yes men and women), will be targeted by this recall idea -- it is the only avenue in which it can work. It is an 'aren't we a noble lot to offer you plebes recall?' piece of legislation, without much teeth and never seriously designed to be effective, but it is better than nothing.

The paramount problem we face in this province and nation is the Party machinery, operating for the business community at the expense of the people. We get a single vote and it must be put to better use!

For example, Adrian Dix made a speech about strengthening and levelling the economy, much the usual rumble from politicians. But he did not say a word about increasing democracy for the people, or about returning the Commons back to the people. How can a community of people survive when they do not own their own resources?

More amazingly, how can any politician be taken seriously when he/she does not make this a front-burner issue, if this is an earnest campaign on behalf of the people? Are you beginning to get the picture, folks?

Of course corporate-coerced political Parties, and those who help advance their exploitation of both human and natural resources acting deceptively as your local MLA representative, never serve the people. [I digress to add that typically the MLAs do so unknowingly as the political slate is awash in ignorance about politics, history, economics and philosophy]

The Party simply campaigns on bribes to the masses of promises of returning some of the money it previously extorted under threat of force.

The political machine, operating under whatever banner, is guaranteed to fail the people, again. Its few advantages are far exceeded by its obvious disadvantages, but we fail to even acknowledge this reason why due to the state propaganda shaping our thoughts.

If we all found an honest local Independent candidate to support; and if we all sent them to Victoria with a specific agenda -- free votes in the Leg on all matters, effective recall, independent bodies to investigate all corruption, harsh penalties for political breach of trust, monies set aside for all districts for bi-annual townhalls, etc -- we could use our democratic right to vote and turn this province on its head politically, setting the table for our future.

zalm, there are some very real reasons...

for voter apathy. I suggest you read Bertrand Russell's short book called Authority and the Individual (1949).

I despise your idea and even the notion of giving more power to the state, centralizing its control over us even that much more. That fact, the centralization of power which diminishes our natural need to help shape our own world in an effective way, is the parent of most the apathy you memention.

You can pick up about a third of the book online here on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0-_9hiVc70

samuidave

Bertrand Russell? Why not look at the actual stats compiled to find the reasons people don't vote?

Canada :
http://elections.ca/content.aspx?section=res&dir=rec/part/tud&document=reasons&lang=e

USA :
http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-556.pdf

California :
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepoliticalsystem/a/whynotvote.htm

From the California article : "The survey found that nonvoters are disproportionately young, single, less educated and more likely to be of an ethnic minority than infrequent and frequent voters."

Safe to say that most non-voters grow out of it. Age matters, which is what zalm said.

Government by Plebiscite

Recall was approved by voters in a referendum held in tandem with the 1991 provincial election--a parting gift by Vander Zalm's Socreds. There was virtually no debate on its merits at the time as the vote was overshadowed by the provincial election. Recall just seemed like a good idea to most voters. The popular understanding of it was that local constituents should be empowered to remove MLAs who, because of personal misconduct, were failing to discharge their duties as local representatives.

In the recall petitions that ensued, the only cases that met that test were the Paul Rietsma case in Parksville-Qualicum--in which the Liberal MLA wrote forged letters to the editor praising himself and slamming his NDP opponent--and maybe the Val Roddick case in Delta, although in my view Roddick could not reasonably be held personally responsible for the curtailment of emergency services at the Delta Hospital.

The other cases were effectively efforts to re-fight the previous election by targeting MLAs in marginal seats--that includes the current HST recalls. The BC Civil Liberties Association launched a Charter challenge to the Recall law on the grounds that by authorizing the removal of an elected member of the Legislature it vitiated the democratic rights of those who had voted in the previous election. (By the way, it requires 40% of registered voters to remove an MLA, not 60% as a previous commentator erroneously claimed.) It's my understanding the case was withdrawn because the BCCLA lacked sufficient funds to see it through.

When the NDP was in power, recall was used by its long-standing political opponents in an effort to overturn the government--which had a 3-seat majority in the Legislature after the 1996 election. Kevin Falcon even tried to launch the "Total Recall" of all NDP MLAs.

Tielemann is right about one thing: in strict legal terms no grounds--rational or otherwise--need be given to undertake a recall campaign. In Point Grey in the late 1990s one voter sought to demonstrate the absurdity of the law by filing a recall petition against the local MLA, Gordon Campbell. The basis for the petition was that Campbell had lied during the 1996 campaign by claiming the Liberals would win the election--an election they in fact lost!

Real democratic reform requires a voting system that produces a truly representative Legislature. Recall is a band-aid at best on a flawed first-past-the-post electoral system. At worst, it's a way for disgruntled groups--and retired politicians--to settle old scores.

Gustav

I submit that Recall is made necessary by the lack of informed decision making at the ballot box. It has little to do with FPTP. Recall is the sober second thought process of the votter. You know the, we made a mistake, we didn't know they were going to do this or they lied to us so we want to take back our vote. I blame the whole new age journalism for entertainment trash that does not inform the voter. We are manipulated by a corporate media that has no intention of exposing the truth or giving an accurate account of the policies of the options. They promote one ideology over another and so Recall is a necessary option. Even now the media is doing its usual number on Recall efforts. They were silent on the merits of recall when it was the NDP on the spit.

In the current situation with the media failing to do its job (the Tyee excluded of course) Tieleman is dead on.

Now you can argue that it is not part of our democracy as Dan Miller does, but then our democracy is depended on impartial journalism and an impartial media. Without that we have no real democracy.

'Why?', Frank, it is a question you need to learn to ask

Frank ~ Bertrand Russell? Why not look at the actual stats compiled to find the reasons people don't vote?

Stats aside Frank, there are reasons for feelings of alienation and individual disenfranchisement from the system deeper than the numbers. The Bertrand Russell book, available to read online, Authority and the Individual, offers some insight in the historical context of what is happening. The stats simply illustrate the problem, they do not offer a reason why the problems exists, particularly over and over.

Frank~Safe to say that most non-voters grow out of it. Age matters, which is what zalm said.

You call it 'growing out of it', Frank? Let's call it what it really is: a general acquiescence to the status quo; a more fully infected population with state propaganda which increases over time if not defended against.

As we age, we have less and less time to bother with matters such as understanding politics, power and the workings of empire. The status quo capitalist machine insists that it be exactly this way. You are clearly just another victim of its insanity accepting the absurd despite the warnings, let alone the obvious shortcomings of Party which have increasingly worked against the people.

The general cycle of power goes like this, Frank: Tyranny, Revolt, Liberty, Abuse of Liberty, and then back to Tyranny again.

One guess which part of the cycle we are currently in.

So Bill Tieleman....

QUOTE:

"And they want a future government to eliminate both recall and citizens initiatives, so campaigns like that against Premier Gordon Campbell's Harmonized Sales Tax or any other issue can never happen again.

Sound crazy? Insulting? Offensive?

You bet it is."

You want to know what else sounds ceazy? Insulting? Offensive? No free vote on all issues in the Legislature

It would be nice to hear a single politician in my lifetime actually take a stand for the democratic fundamental of representation of the people.

They had the power to prevent the HST and didn't use it

The MLA's being targeted for recall are all members of the Liberal Party of BC. They were all sitting in the House when Colin Hansen and Gordon Campbell announced that they were going ahead with the HST.

That means they had the power to say, "NO!", and vote against it. They chose not to do that, even though they knew full well that just days earlier, the promise had been made to the electorate that the Campbell Liberals would not introduce the HST.

In my view, lying to the electorate is a very serious offense, one eminently deserving of the use of Recall.

The colossal arrogance of Smith, Miller, Waddell and Ramsey and all the others, like Hawes, who have spoken out against Recall is extremely galling to most British Columbians to whom I have spoken.

It is this arrogance, the lies, deceit and lack of caring about the taxpayers and the electorate in general that makes British Columbians want to kick politicians out of office.

A recent poll showed that politicians are the least trusted of all Canadians. No wonder!

All of those opposed to effective Recall legislation,not just the grotesquely difficult legislation we currently must deal with, should remember that in other jurisdictions in the past, where there was no such legislation, when leaders, despots and their privileged cronies have failed to listen, revolutions have resulted; the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution and many more.

Yes, Revolution is a bit extreme. I neither suggest it nor condone the idea. On the other hand, history has shown that those in power need to listen to the electorate and the taxpayer.

Mr. Tieleman is 100% correct. We, the people, are thoroughly annoyed with the BC Liberals. They have lied to us. They have imposed unfair taxes. They have behaved arrogantly.

Personally, I am very glad that Bill Vander Zalm, Chris Delaney and Bill Tieleman decided to lead the charge to get something done about the HST. I will be working on the recall campaign in my home riding. Yes, I will canvass for signatures -- door to door -- even though I am on a disability pension.

How close did we come to either a revolution or armed insurrection? I have, on several occasions, overheard others talking of taking the law into their own hands and shooting MLA's. Gordon Campbell's constituency office was fire-bombed. That is why I am pleased that Vander Zalm, Delaney and Tieleman brought a cooler-headed and probably more effective approach forward before it went to bloodshed in the streets.

There are two real problems:

1) the structure of governments in Canada. Whether Federal or Provincial, both lack effective, meaningful checks and balances, and
2)the "party system". No person can serve two masters.

Under the party system, once elected, an MLA or MP now ignores the electorate and backs the party. That is fundamentally wrong. Our elected representatives MUST listen to the electorate.

Roll on RECALL!!!!!!