"IF IT AINT BROKE DON'T FIX IT"

There is so much in the news about politics in British Columbia these days, ones head begins to swim. The media is having a field day as they speculate, on who could be the next " Premier" of our province. All the while "ignoring" and, or, "denying" the reasons behind the collapse of the "Liberals", the "N.D.P." and our present "political system".
Looking back to when the first "Food Bank" was started we begin to understand how governments have shifted from being a "socially responsible body" to being "responsible only to themselves and their party supporters". With B.C. sporting the highest rate of child poverty in Canada our provincial government has given the banks a permanent tax holiday to the tune of $135 million dollars a year. Was that the agenda of the people we elected, or of the "party" that they represent? Does that tax holliday feed our hungry children? Here in B.C. we have seen a mini revolt with the "Fight HST Campaign". The voters rejected the actions of their "elected" and demanded that they take direct responsibility. Even after it was established that the constituents were against the tax their "representatives" maintained that their "party" was more important and smarter than their voters. They refused to stand and be "counted" as "members against the constituents wishes". They instead threw it back to the voters in a costly referendum so that their "partisan stand" would not be "marked publicly" by voting in the legislature. Yes, the system is "broken", and the established political parties are not going to fix it.
Please, lets all of us look for an alternate system so that "food banks" become a thing of the past, child poverty in our province is only a bad memory and our elected "so called representatives" are held directly responsible,even between elections. It's called "Direct Democracy" and any party that does not support it, is supporting themselves as a "party" over and above the the citizens of this province.

Kevin Rudd?

Kevin Rudd was falling in the polls. Support for Carole James was steady.

With James we had a 21% lead, without her, we're tied with the Liberals. I'd rather be 21% ahead.

Before James resigned the party was split between people that supported her and those that didn't. After she resigned the party is still split but now its a lot worse. Split parties don't win elections.

People on various blogs say anybody supporting James is an elitist, a backroom person, a fascist or had a job with the party lined up. Whereas they are huge democrats, cheering dissent when they're not out in freezing temperatures helping homeless kittens.

If someone like Will wants to believe the current situation is exactly what we want who am I to burst their bubble.

Not to mention

There's a huge difference between the Australian example and the BC one.

In Australia we have a party IN GOVERNMENT - not in opposition.

The NDP changed leaders during it's period IN GOVERNMENT too - and it didn't result in losing the next election.

Opposition party leaders are not comparable with government leaders - they have no goodies to give out - they can't make caucus members cabinet ministers (or fire them) so they have much less leverage over caucus members.

In fact, James's only mistake - from a tactical point of view - was her failure to fire Bob Simpson months ago.

He was a problem then and - given the fact he apparently wants to be an INDEPENDENT now - what would have been lost by telling him to go.

Instead, James tried to deal with the situation in a different and more conciliatory way and look where it got her.

But, worse - look where it's gotten the party - whoever gets the tocsin now is going to have to spend at least half his time (and it won't be a woman - that's for sure) watching over his shoulder because he'll know that there could be other plotters in the wings.

Once you lose trust and loyalty and stop caring more for yourself or your clique than the team and the real target - THE LIBERALS - then you're in BIG trouble.

And the NDP is in big trouble.

Great common sense Will McMartin

Calm, no fatalism...."it`s a tough game"

And very perceptive, the sudden mainstream media love of Carole as soon as she came under fire...Indeed

Michael Smyth WAS HONEST in his assessment that Carole was done.

The only problem now is with the cry babies.

We can`t go back, we must forward.

There will be no do over....Get over it people.

__________________________________________

I must say I am surprised, regulars here who routinely talked of democracy and majority who now talk of vegeance on thy self...Bite off my nose to spite my face.

Good Luck Will McMartin in convincing the revenge thugs.

Gordo

Of course it is within the realm of possibility that the Liberal caucus, heretofore a lame group of cabinet wannabes, and the Liberal cabinet, heretofore an emasculated group of Gordo wannabes, could have stood up as one, stirred with collective courage, and asked a page to send a note to the premier suggesting he should consider whether his continued leadership may have an adverse affect on their pensions following an electoral defeat.
But, who knows, maybe it was Gordo's friends in the business beyond who offered a conciliator promise of boardships, directorships, executiveships or remunerative what-have-yous if Gordo were to see advantage in experiencing some better earning years prior to retirement fade-out, while some other slack jaw sought to keep this forlorn group in power.
Probably too far fetched. More likely of course that the feckless caucus invisibles found courage within their numbers and took up arms. Holy smokes, Gordo must have been surprised!

Ends Justify Means

There ought to be a few disheartened NP supporters, now that they realize there was no substantive policy or strategic difference between the dissidents and supporters of Ms James. It was all just about polls & perceived electability.

Bob Williams provided a good laugh when he opined that 'democracy has returned'.

After the 84% show of support for Ms James, her good friend Ms Kwan dashed off her letter and a Sunday summit was to be held.

The bakers' dozen had no intention of meeting unless their demand was met. They essentially told the party apparat that they'd 'hold their breath' until Ms James acquiesced - which she did. Thereby making a mockery of the Prov Council's 84% support.

The unasked question: "Rather than cave, why didn't Ms James speedily throw the whole mess back at the party?"

As it stands now, a new leader can be elected by 50% + 1 of the party, but can be un-elected by 40% of caucus.

frank.....

i disagree with You.....

" Even worse, despite the BC Liberals continuing woes, the New Democrats plateaued in public opinion polls, reaching only as high as 46 per cent in Mustel surveys, and 49 per cent in those done by Angus Reid. Those levels were far short of NDP support prior to the 1979, 1983 and 1991 general elections.

(Still, that didn't stop some of the province's commentators, notably CKNW's Bill Good, from repeatedly declaring that Carole James would "probably" and "almost certainly" win the next provincial general election. The mainstream news media's sudden support for James as she came under fire from her own party was one of the most remarkable, and strange, aspects of recent events.)......."

When Bill Good start taking about Carole James " wining" it was in my opinion time for Her to go He knows it was the best bet for Liberals to win next time .....
Now NDP will win for shure

I'm not used to seeing "spin"

...on the Tyee. Will, what you're trying to prove with this article is beyond me.

A small minority of people who actively loathed James managed to hijack the party from its relative somnolence. You're trying to support this group's argument with statistics that say... what? Higher voting percentages that don't lead to majority governments indicate only failure, and not success? That previous NDP governments shouldn't have won power because they garnered a lower percentage of votes than Carole did?

You don't once address the change in policy that James undertook to salve the hearts and consciences of those in the small and big business community that are uncomfortable with socialists, despite this being quoted as the reason for fragging the leader in the first place. I think if you're going to write an article like this, that you should address this issue, because many of James' supporters are saying that it wasn't the vapid personality that got them blown up, it was the change in policy. Even commenters on the Tyee validate that concern.

It's a valid concern. But it's the method of addressing that concern by the minority that is so concerning, and you don't even acknowledge that it exists!

"And that upcoming tilt...will be a no-holds-barred, take-no-prisoners battle between a centre-right, "free-enterprise" entity (the Coalition, Social Credit, and the BC Liberals), and a centre-left, social democratic party (the CCF, the NDP)."

It will not. It will be a killing field of own goals by inexperienced NDP candidates without finances, volunteers, or campaign and message support on one side; and ambushes by the natural allies of the far-right (not centre-right) Fiberals, whose only stated [i]raison d'être is to "keep the socialists from power" by spinning bogus reports and statistics through the Fraser Institute, delivering great gouts of shallow "analysis" and "editorial" from the likes of the Calgary Herald and Ottawa Citizen, not to mention paeans of praise for the efforts of the past eight years by a government whose financial and moral support are extended only to businesses and not children; and obscuring their illicit activities by cutting deals every time they come to the courts, as with Railgate.

This is no knife fight, Will - it's a slaughter, and the Fiberals will use any handy drone or helicopter gunship to slay the innocent along with the warriors.

David - send this back for a rewrite! Kevin Rudd's history notwithstanding, this is a very lame effort from a good writer who generally manages to edify nearly every time he set out.

More Independent Candidates Please!

Direct Democracy can work, if the people vote for it. I like Bob Simpson's attitude towards running again in his riding. I think he'd get re-elected as an Independent MLA. More of those MLA's in Victoria might be a good thing. Having some change is better than the choas that BC is going through. Too much political unstability is not a good thing for any province. I'd like to hear policies from both parties on issues like a poverty reduction plan, homelessness and the like. Not much from either governments. These issues that many British Columbians face every day. Why not for once I wish politicians would just listen to the people and do what the majority wants. Honestly folks it's no wonder that people don't vote. We have to work hard to encourage people to vote and get involved, that is the key to direct democracy, the electorate is involved. I like that idea.....alot.

Tommy Gunn

"There will be no do over....Get over it people."

Get over what, exactly? Be explicit. Don't just sling vague insults at people you haven't made the slightest effort to understand.

In all the threads about this disaster in the last few days, only one commenter has threatened to leave the NDP, and that was alcm way back on the first day. It's the rest of you hostage-takers who are busy spinning a story that the majority of the party is quitting because we don't like the result of your hostage-taking. You won't find that anywhere in our writings, because we know there's no other place to go.

Just as you suspected. You knew you could pull this off without cost to yourselves because there was nowhere else for a social democrat to park his or her vote.

Which makes you morally no better than the Campbell Fiberals who trade tax breaks for corporations off against health care and child welfare. The only difference is you're battling your natural allies - the centre, whereas the Campbell Fiberals only have one natural constituency - a corporate one - and scarcely any real people to authentically represent at all.

I'm calling you and your doctrinaire ilk out. Engage your brains now, because you're going to have to defend your stunning lack of logic for real.

Garth, zalm ...

My reference to Kevin Rudd simply was to illustrate that political leaders, whether they wield power (in the case of prime ministers and premiers) or have little (like leaders of the opposition), and whether they have been electorally successful or not -- and whether they're male or female, Canadian or non-Canadian -- all face the constant threat of removal by their own party.

Why would any party member want to keep a leader who had lost two elections back-to-back? What's the correct number of defeats ... Three? Four? More?

And if you don't like my Australian reference, look at Canada's major federal parties.

The Liberals have had three leaders who were cast aside after just two election losses -- Edward Blake (defeated in 1882 and 1887), Wilfrid Laurier (after winning in 1896, 1900, 1904 and 1908, he lost in 1911 and 1917) and John Turner (1984 and 1988).

No Liberal leader has been given a chance to lose three.

Stephane Dion, who led the Grits to a disastrous result in 2008, was turfed after that sole campaign.

Any guesses on how many chances the party will give its current leader, Michael Ignatieff? Does ONE sound about right?

The Conservatives present a slightly more complicated historical picture. Several Tories lost two federal campaigns -- Charles Tupper (in 1896 and 1900); Robert Borden (in 1904 and 1908, but he later won in 1911 and 1917); Arthur Meighen (1921 and 1926, with a controversial minority win in 1925); George Drew (1949 and 1953); and Joe Clark (after winning in 1979, he lost in 1980 and again in 2000).

Two leaders had three losses: John Diefenbaker (after winning in 1957 and 1958, he lost in 1962, 1963 and 1965); and his successor, Robert Stanfield (lost in 1968, 1972 and 1974). Both fought internal dissent throughout their terms as leader.

Being a party leader is a tough job. Win ... or else. Nearly everyone who has been involved in politics understands this, but for reasons that are difficult to understand, B.C.'s New Democrats currently appear intent on tearing themselves apart over something that is common-place in other parties -- and in other countries, including Australia.

Will

Direct democracy

Rantnik, among others, wants direct democracy, with the implied abolishment of representative democracy. Does any one of you know what that would look like?

- North Island hospital wants to rebuild its 1940's-era Emergency department at a cost of $4 million. This hospital has great need, but other hospital building projects (such as a new Children's Hospital to replace the 25-year-old one) have been awaiting funding for much longer. Please vote by next Monday or the contractors will raise the price.

- a clinic serving aboriginal women in the North is losing its tenancy, and the only other space they can find anwywhere near their target population will cost couble to rent, or approximately $1./5 miliion more over ten years, plus $130,00 in moving and renovation costs. Please vote yes or no on your approval, and state which budget the funds should come from.

- a mining company wants to start a acid-drainage gold mine employing 50 people near a town with an unemployment rate of 60% since the pulp mill was shut down three years ago. An environmental assessment was received, and requirements were met, but there is doubt about the company's ability to comply with the provisions of the assessment when the mine life dwindles. Please advise on your preferred method of approval - unlimited approval, company-posted bond for $7 million, or company share of gross profits of $15 million over five years. Note: approval of choice 3 may lead to a charter challenge which may require a costly legal defence which is not currently funded by the department.

- Citizens of Vancouver want more transit, while citizens of the suburbs want more bridges and roads. Please vote your conscience and specify the amount you are prepared to spend each year for 8 years.

- The Justice Branch has advised that preliminary estimates of a judicial inquiry into the BC Rail sale will cost in excess of $115 million over three years, and any litigation to punish wrongdoers or recover assets is estimated to cost in excess of $340 million , not including defense fees. Please advise on your preferred method of proceeding. Note: there will be a subsidiary vote after the judicial report is released to confirm charges and spending estimates.

_________________________

Are you really ready for direct democracy? Did you bone up on your briefing books? Can you read a balance sheet? Can you properly instruct civil servants with a subsidiary motion on spending estimates? Do you trust your neighbour to?

It's hard enough running a family. How many of you really, truly, honestly want to take on running a province as well?

If most of you were truly honest, you'd admit you just want to be king-for-a-day of your own little pet issue without taking any responsibility for the issues vast majority of people who are impoverished by all the countless bad decisions that are made every day, even with the best of information and and professional advice.

Will

The whole point is that your article demonstrates peoples' desire to predict future outcomes based on past performance. That doesn't work in mutual funds and it doesn't work in politics either. Churchill was a dismal failure at everything he tried except as a war correspondent, yet he turned out to be exactly the right person for Britain's extraordinary circumstances of the 1940s.

Selecting your leaders by the method you suggest is akin to climbing into your car, starting the engine and putting it in drive, grabbing hold of the rear-view mirror, and driving off down the road steering your mirror to see what the view was like where you've been. It would be a cartoon sight to watch if the consequences weren't so tragic.

There were problems with the NDP under Carole's tenure - agreed. Some due to a failure to explain, some due to a doctrinaire disagreement over policy and direction. Many were due to a perception in the MSM that presented the NDP as other than they were. If that excuses the actions of one of the backseat riders jumping in front and seizing the rear view mirror while simultaneously kicking the driver out the door, well, we have a different view of what constitutes "sober, considered judgment".

Not to mention "good driver".

D-K-D

You said you disagree and I read your quotes from Will but I didn't hear what you disagreed with me about.

Cry babies

Back in 2009 if those now calling for unity had voted for the NDP CJ would have been premier.

Back in 2009 if those now saying we should be standing up for kids and the poor and the homeless had stifled their proclamations that CJ's stance on the carbon tax meant they couldn't vote for her, kids, the poor and the homeless would be better off today.

All well and good to declare history irrelevant once it becomes embarrassing for you but I kinda like to remember it.

Will McMartin

And how often do parties with a 21% lead in the polls get thrown out in the same month?

I don't recall Stephane Dion having support in the high 40s when he was turfed.

Maybe Laurier did?

Direct democracy

I think you make important points Zalm, but unfortunately, with revolving door minister-ships and people like the BC Finance Minister claiming not to read the briefings they are given (re: HST) there's a clear problem with the ways things are currently (not) working. I see no indication that any cabinet minister is particularly suited to their position as a general rule. I think we need to find a way to better protect our civil service, so they can take on the role of informing the public when elected officials are dropping the ball.

Liberals not all happy campers

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/canada/article/715571--page0

David Schreck

I hope David Schreck reads this article. It seems he, and others, are torpedoing the NDP by making emotionally charged, negative comments rather than moving on.

I've voted NDP for about 40 years, but last summer I wrote my MLA Lana Popham stating that I would not vote NDP if Carole James was at the helm. Then, from my perspective, after a very poor 2009 campaign and an embarrassing non-performance with the anti-HST revolt, I was worried that the NDP would blow the next election too under James' leadership. All the BC Liberals had to do was bring on a nice, shiny, new leader. Recent events have proven that scenario might happen. The NDP have not been a "government-in-waiting." James had to go. I was surprised that there were not more than the Baker's Dozen asking for her to step down.

The NDP need renewal. Just what do they represent right now? In my opinion, they need to build a visible platform which will fill the vacuum that exists in the political centre of this province. David Shreck has to get a grip on his destructive public comments and to start looking forward... if he can. He could start by listening to Will McMartin.

More Democracy!

Much of the turbulence around the world can be ascribed to a rise in democratic expression. In case after case, citizens' views are prevailing over the elites desire to tell us what to do. Gordon Campbell's humiliating resignation recalls Mulroney's identical departure. Wikileaks has brought a trove of government documents out of secrecy and into public light; Taseko Mine was turned down; Potash Corp was saved from sale to Australian mining giant BHP; Carole James resigns.

All share a common thread. The public is engaged and wants to be heard. As we deserve.

Direct democracy is an ill-defined concept but more democracy is a very, very good thing. Can we ever have too much democracy? Extremely unlikely, but certainly not something that we're even close to having.

Great to see people becoming engaged in our economic, political and environmental policies. Power to the people!

Frank

I'll forego the opportunity to make the same point over and over again, and defer instead to one of the pollsters (and their mid-term numbers) in whom and in which you seem to place so much trust.

Here's a few paragraphs from the Sept 23 edition of the Globe and Mail; specifically, a story on the 23 percentage point lead Carole James' NDP then held over Gordon Campbell's BC Liberals.

'In short, Mario Canseco says that, given Liberal troubles, the leader of the B.C. New Democrats should be doing better on the personal popularity front.

‘Mr. Canseco, public affairs vice-president for Angus Reid Strategies, says Ms. James' approval numbers should be closer to the level of support her party has from voters. His company's latest poll has the NDP at 48 per cent, while Ms. James's approval rating is at a 30 per cent.

‘"Almost half of B.C. decided voters are willing to support [the NDP], but considerably fewer see Carole James as a leader they approve of," he said. "If this gap remains, the B.C. Liberals stand to recover some of their lost support, particularly if Campbell steps down."'

Well, Campbell has stepped down ... and the BC Liberals have recovered much of their lost support.

The current polling numbers not only were predictable; they were predicted.

Shreker's

I am shocked that the Shreker's commenting here are so parsimonious with the truth that they can't admit the NDP's 40 something percent in polls with El Gordo in charge meant absolutely nothing . Once Gordo was gone that support would evaporate. In fact all the polling said that before James gave Simpson the boot.

Think being way ahead in the polls years before another election means anything? Think again.

A year before the 2005 election the NDP was at 45% in the polls and Canwest/Gordo was at 33%. James blew that one.

Late in the fall of 2008 the NDP was at 44% and the Canwest team at 38. By mid Jan that was done to 47 Gordo to 33 NDP and by mid February 53 to 36. Yup James blew that one as well.

James is one of the most disliked incompetent politicians BC has seen in years. She has no experience, talent or education that qualifies her to run a 7/11 store much less the province. Like the bang on highly effective Canwest/Gordo ads said - she just wasn't ready and never would be.

The BCLiberals could have run the town dogcatcher against her and won. That was the dissenters point - its irrefutable.

The Shrekers commenting here love to claim the 85% support from delegates appointed by the leadership faction now in control of the party was democracy. Yup just like Jimmy Hoffa's Teamster union rep system, always supported Jimmy.

In Canada democracy means one man one vote, not the notorious delegate/rep system that the mob uses to run labour unions. The Shreker's, James and her handler/programmers all knew she would lose by a one man one vote survey by a huge margin.

Gordo had the same 85% support by party brass and a similar sized group of outspoken dissidents. Because unlike James he actually has a brain and some education to go along with it, he realized his goose was cooked and he resigned. With James being too stupid and stubborn (her most noteworthy character traits} to take any hints, the group had to use the nuclear option.

Now, of course Gordo will be getting millions in salary, consulting fees, board of director stipends and pirate power stock benefits from various Howe/Bay/Wall street entities as a reward for his faithful service.

Carole James on resigning would get the only job the BCGU has that she is qualified for - a receptionist at union HQ,. That would have certainly made her want to stay and fight.

Just like in Gordo's case, James' total caucus supporters were a small minority, with a bunch more dissenters hiding behind the skirts of the outspoken 13. These didn't want to be targeted by the thugs that run the party - Sohita,Shrek and gang. A few of them will want to run to take her place and don't need the baggage.

Given the vitriol being dumped on the 13 by thugs like Shreck and his pals at the MSM. it's no wonder other critics chose to go along to get along. This is one of techniques used by third world regimes that want to silence critics - go nuclear on them.

It is becoming obvious

That none of our 'leaders' regardless of what political party hat they put on, has any real idea what in hell they are doing.
This is not just a provincial issue, it extends to governments around the globe.
The 08 meltdown was never actually fixed, and while we have fared better (so far) than some there are huge issues, simply not being addressed.
Massive government debt can not be ignored forever, and yet that is all that is really being done. Underfunded pensions are giving the illusion of false security.
Think the unrest in Greece and England can't happen in Canada?
You are just kidding yourself, and there are NO politicians who can deal with it.
That fact is the underlying cause of the political carnage you are seeing now. Campbell proclaimed he hated deficit financing, yet had NO idea what else to do. He did not commit political suicide with the HST if he thought there were any options.
The NDP have put NOTHING on the table that would show they could do anything different, and finally, just maybe the electorate is waking up to the fact that NONE of these Clowns knows what they are doing.

NDP's Great White Hope

This is the NDP's big chance cuz they have a star waiting to take the reins of power. This is the reason the MSM has released it's wolfpack on the NDP. They are terrified of John Horgan.

Those who have heard him in the Leg or on the air, know John will wipe the floor with the Christy Clarks, Kevin Falcons, and Bill Good's of the BC scene - and do it with humor,class and charisma.

You wait and see!!

Thanks Seth....

Welcome aboard....

Your words are wise.....The MSM is scared shitless of Horgan!

Nailed it!

Will's comments and electability

Will,

In your article you state:

But then in your most recent response (three or four before my post) you state:

So which is it? Was the problem Campbell or was the problem the liberals.

Recent polls have the liberals and NDP dead even, there are only two possible reasons for this:

1) Voters were never mad at the Liberals, they were mad at Gordon Campbell, now that he's gone they're moving back to the Liberals (lends credence to Carole was a crappy leader).

2) Voters were mad at the Liberals, but they now see an NDP just as fractured due to their internal struggles and wonder if a party that implodes like this can govern (does not lend credence to Carole was a crappy leader)

In other words, if the problem was Campbell then I think most pro-Carole people would admit she needed to go. If the problem was the Liberals then Carole should have stayed. The problem (ugh - bad pun) is that the dissenters within the NDP never waited to see which of the above scenarios was accurate and now they have surely handed the next election to the Liberals.

Me.

Inside the polling numbers...

The latest polls are telling...And great news for the NDP...Nice try PAB!

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2010/12/inside-polling-numbers.html

So What's Next?

Yes, Carole James' approval numbers were low and she was past here best before due date. She should have stepped down after the May, 2009 election.

But the optics of this beer hall putsch to the public are not great either. The ball began to roll with the removal of Bob Simpson from caucus, which was CJ's own undermining. And Moe Sihota had his fingerprints all over that one. More on him in a minute.

So who replaces CJ? The NDP party base is not centrist or centre-left. I'd wager that they are more leftist than the typical NDP voter that they need to attract.

So who replaces CJ? Adrian Dix? He's more to the left than Carole James, has a dour personality, has his "Glen Clark" links, and is known for his fake/fraudulent memo to file to cover-up Clark's back.

According to Ipsos, he's the favourite of NDP voters. I doubt he will give the NDP much of a bounce.

Farnworth is a nice and likable guy but is on the right of the party and I doubt the party base will elect him if he even decides to run, which is doubtful. Furthermore, he doesn't bring anything "fresh" to the political scene and I doubt that he will provide any bounce to the NDP. He was a staunch CJ backer BTW.

According to Ipsos, other potential NDP candidates are so unknown to the public that they are off the radar screen. It takes years to establish a presence with the public as leader of the opposition.

And then we have the high profile name of Moe Sihota as NDP party prez. According to Ipsos, he has a negative -41 rating with the public. He's another elephant that remains in the NDP room.

Can anyone here visualize the optics of a more left Adrian Dix/Moe Sihota combo to the public? The Libs would have a field day painting the discredited 1990's Clark gov't label all over these guys. It's just political reality.

The Gang of 13 should have been careful for what they wished for. The current dissent could further boil over during the heat of a leadership race and rip the party apart. Time will tell.

Shreker's down one

On the latest polling numbers showing the BCLibs and NDP tied, pollster Mario Canseco states

"I have a feeling that, if we had done this poll without Carole James resigning, the numbers would have been very similar. It's more a case of people who were disenchanted with the Liberals, who are now coming back."

Hard to argue

Thanks Will McMartin

Another reasoned piece. I for one am getting tired of the same old arguments against but you seem to be holding your own very well. I will say that the fatalists like Ramsey and Schreck must really think that the NDP has no greater talent to lead than James. Which says something about them rather than anyone else.

I do agree that the MSM were supporting Carole James for nefarious reasons. They wanted the liberals back in power. Now that she is gone they will unleash their dogs on the NDP and its new leader more viciously because they have lost their ace in the hole.

Horgan?

http://www.straight.com/article/ndpers-campaigned-for-slots

NDP still has good chance to win

but only if the likes of Schreck and Ramsey quit taking shots at their own party. Will's great article and further comments show leadership change is the norm for all parties after two election losses. But those loyal to the discarded leader have to button their lips or else the leadershp change becomes a political disaster for the party.

An even more disturbing trend in my view for the NDP is they are taking much too long to choose an interim leader. Most political pundits agree the next BC election is coming soon, and the NDP must get themselves prepared for it. The first step in the process is choosing an interim leader, but the party doesn't seem to have much of a sense of urgency about that task. I must say, I am extremely surprised by this since the still possible NDP election win obviously depends on getting organized for the next election in a timely manner.

Oh RMAN my BOY......

Trying to attack Horgan on the NDPs wanting a slight increase in slots is a dead issue..

I am sure with Playnow on line, casinos everywhere, a $900 million dollar retracable roof expenditure to woo BC newest giant casino..At taxpayers expense....

[UNFAIR CHARACTERIZATION REMOVED. MODERATOR.]....That argument is moot...

Or perhaps you forgot about Kreuger and Campbell`s statements...

And I quote.. from Kreuger

"There will be blood of families and children on the hands of MLAs who vote for expanded gambling"snip

From Campbell "Gambling is for loser, those who gamble will always be losers" snip

You want to play Rman, Cool Hand...You will have to do better than that...

HA HA

couple of points:

David Schreck is dreaming if he thinks that people will contribute at this time, Once we know who and what the NDP will stand for, then we can talk about helping and contributing!
We have blindly assumed that a new leader would lead us where the NDP usually was heading, but James made a skeptic out of us all.

Next, taking the long view, perhaps we should realize that whoever gets to be the next premier will have a very tough time trying to bring BC back from it present disaster status, in other words it will be another one-term effort because nobody can fullfill the hopes that the voters have.

Maybe, just maybe we should let the liberals take the fall?

Chances are that "smiley-face" Clark will end up representing the liberals, and that she will wind up with shit on her face!
Now isn't that enough to pray for?

How about we just try to get the new NDP leader to reorganize and begin to assemble a plan for the future, instead of wasting time blaming other parties for screwing up?

Will McMartin

Canseco's quotes don't undermine anything I said. Carole was not well regarded by people IN the NDP. That was obvious when you read the blogs.

According to Mustel the high level of support for the NDP didn't drop immediately after Gord resigned.

According to ARS it nosedived after CJ was ousted.

Tommy Gunn

Why didn't you "get over it" and support the leader when CJ was still the leader? Why didn't you put aside your dislike for her and simply support her? You didn't so its hypocritical for you to tell me to support the leaderless party now.

Besides, should we remain leaderless or just ask the 13 who they want as leader since no one else is entitled to an opinion on that subject?

seth

"Hard to argue"

Its hard to argue because there's no evidence at all backing up Canseco's stance. The only evidence that is available, the Mustel poll, completely contradicts Canseco.

Skywalker

"I will say that the fatalists like Ramsey and Schreck must really think that the NDP has no greater talent to lead than James"

Strange comment coming from a guy who couldn't say if there was anyone he liked to replace Carole.

airwin

"NDP still has good chance to win but only if the likes of Schreck and Ramsey quit taking shots at their own party"

We had a good chance to win in 2009 too but lots of Dippers thought it was a great time to attack the leadership and proclaim loudly that they wouldn't vote for her because of her stance on the carbon tax or other issues.

There's no election campaign going on at this moment so I think its a better time to hash this out now than it was during the 2009 campaign.

The answer is simple Frank.....

We can`t afford another BC Liberal Government!

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

"Get over it, Carole is no longer leader, she will never be leader again"

And any argument you or Reid put forward is moot...

She`s gone!

Tommy Gunn

And the constant attacks on CJ never got "tiresome" eh?

Its wishful thinking to believe that everyone that supported CJ will support whoever the 13 pick as leader.

When people go into

When people go into politics, especially when aspiring high places, they want to, and are, playing with the lives and futures of millions of people. So, when they are kicked out, for any reason, the got what they've asked for.

Look at the millions of lives ruined by politicians, around the world , every day ,before crying over them.

No "leader" got killed, or had an accident or became sick. There's a string of big bucks directorships waiting for Campbell, CJ is healthy and so on. So, what's the beef ?

When will this idiotic yammering, accusations and finger pointing stop and people get back to work and positive thinking ?

The NDP is far from dead, in spite of what some "insiders" would love to see, to prove their point.

If the new leadership can come up with policies, like the "Sustainable BC" plan, buried by the leadership for 3 years, and communicators who can explain to the public how they're being stolen blind, enslaved and screwed by the present system, there can be a great comeback for everybody's and not only for the benefit of a few.

Saw a speech by the US Senator Bernie Sanders the other day, claiming that 1 % of the US population is "earning" 23.5% of the incomes.

This is about the same here, but this racket is not some kind of "earning", it is daylight robbery, enforced by politicians and governments.

Why do people put up with this fascist system anywhere on Earth, especially here in BC, the richest area anywhere on Earth ?

Ed Deak.

Will

I would discount some of the commentary of Canseco based upon his comments about Gregor Robertson's personal approval ratings in the latest ARS poll about the Vancouver civic scene in the Sun:

""This is great news for an incumbent," he said. "What's fascinating is that Robertson has such a high approval rating. It is rare for someone in Canada to be over 40 per cent, so having someone at 43 per cent is something of a phenomenon."

The problem with those comments is that personal approval ratings for mayors are typically in the 60% - 80% range in their relative "non partisan" political environment.

Robertson's disapproval ratings were much higher and only 33% though that Robertson deserved to be re-elected. That's the real story behind those numbers.

As for yesterday's ARS poll, going from a 21% spread to a dead heat in the time frame of just one month is unprecedented outside of an election campaign. Certainly a seismic shift in public opinion.

That's akin to the federal Tories holding at 40% one month with the federal Libs at 20% going to a 30% dead heat the next month.

The current political climate is also reminiscent of Bennett stepping down in 1986 with the NDP far ahead in the polls. Along comes Vander Zalm who is later the MSM darling and the Socreds reach 58% after his crowning.

Christy Clark = Vander Zalm 2.0?

I still recall your 1996 newsletter during the Clark coronation and the weekly polling therein. And I further recall your statement to the effect that "Clark is like a speeding freight train - the political momentum is unstoppable".

Vander Zalm, Clark, and now another Clark experiencing the same dynamic?

History does have a tendency to repeat itself.

Democracy Is Coming I... :-)

"Yes, the system is "broken", and the established political parties are not going to fix it.
Please, lets all of us look for an alternate system so that "food banks" become a thing of the past, child poverty in our province is only a bad memory and our elected "so called representatives" are held directly responsible,even between elections. It's called "Direct Democracy" and any party that does not support it, is supporting themselves as a "party" over and above the the citizens of this province." rantnik.

The ENTIRE system is broken, the political AND economic systems, and this is becoming increasingly apparent to anyone with half a brain... outside of the established ruling class controlled "party system", which has to be seen as including the NDP and well as Liberals. And more and more this is seen and will be understood in its implications.

This morning, dissident and ousted NDP MLA Bob Simpson, announced that he will not return to "party politics", announcing that it, the party system, is at the root of the problem with current politics and participation disenchantment. He actually out and out advocated the evolution of a "non party" democratic/electoral system.

Good for Bob. He has clearly been reading and influenced by the discussions going on here on Tyee, in my view.

You Party system hacks and apologists need to pay attention here. The sands and winds of time ARE changing, and about to seriously buffet your comfortable and unimaginative assumptions about politics.

Though I would sound one small warning here. As important and profound as this move away from the party system has "the potential" to be, even more importantly what still needs to be secured is, the awakening and movement of the citizenry, particularly the working class citizenry.

continued next post...

Democracy Is Coming II...

from previous post...

That, and the evolution of this new democratic movement in the direction of taking up the cause of the extension of democracy into the economy and especially its large scale enterprises. For without democracy there, shoring up and supporting a new "formal" democratic political order, the potential for ruling class corruption of even the changed order of things continues. To eliminate this threat and corrupting potential, the private ruling class needs to be gone as well from the commanding heights of the economy... and a new financing order/mechanism put in place to bring equality and fairness into the non-party electoral system that needs to be.

This latter is going to be the toughest aspect of this democratic change for people to understand, and find the courage to support, I know that. But it gets taken up now, or it gets uglier and has to be fought out later, in any case. There will be no escape from this need to democratize the economy along with and parallel to the "formal" political democratic system.

I had some doubts about yourself Bob Simpson, but you have been elevated a notch for your courage and principledness, at least in my books. Good luck to you. And good luck to us all. :-)

The only reason history

The only reason history keeps on repeating itself is because people are gullible, stupid , too lazy to think for themselves and want to have "strong leaders" who lead them down the garden paths to their destruction.

Ed Deak.

Fiat Lux

"When will this idiotic yammering, accusations and finger pointing stop and people get back to work and positive thinking ?"

Sounds like "dissent" to me.

Like the old saying goes, what's good enough for Harry Lali is good enough for me.

Frank, would you like some cheese with that?

Let's see who runs and then I'll tell you who I would support. All you wanted to know is who do dump on before the race even started so you could justify your continued support for the leader who exited. How productive would that be? Let's see what they all stand for, let's see which Campbell policies they will undo first and then we'll see. Nice try though.

Skywalker

You don't want to have to defend anyone, fine.

Winning Support

"Its wishful thinking to believe that everyone that supported CJ will support whoever the 13 pick as leader."

Frank's point is a good one.

The concerns about how James was ousted and what that means for future leaders are legitimate and need to be addressed. Insulting James' supporters or pretending they don't exist save for a few "backroom elites" is counter-productive and does nothing to win them over to potential leadership candidate(s). In fact, it will likely have the opposite effect and rally them to actively campaign against whoever the dissenter's support.

That's not to say everyone will be converted or able to get "over it" but surely the effort should be made.

BTW, do we have a better term than "dissenters" yet?

Strategic sense?

It dosen't make any sense and certainly wasn't thought it and will take away any chance of victory for the NDP. I will get over it and am and certain so will James as the democratic process is once again unnerved for a few.
And the timing couldn't have been worst just when the Liberals are holding their leadership race old party members decide to fry their leader in public because members don't think she can win? Trustworthy Carol had a real chance at victory and so did the NDP but no longer can see it happening but what the heck time to move on because its a done deal with a spring election coming up no doubt.

view from the boonies

http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/pique/index.php?cat=C_Frontpage&content=Fenton+on+ndp+1749

Frank said

"With James we had a 21% lead, without her, we're tied with the Liberals. I'd rather be 21% ahead."

Incorrect. The party had a 21% lead; James' rating were well below what the party was polling.

For the sake of the party, and the province, James had to step down.

Politics is a mean business. Brings out the best and the worst in people.

The NDP needs to get on to selecting a leader instead of dithering like Ms. James did.

David Schreck and Paul

David Schreck and Paul Ramsey, two prominent former NDP MLAs, have separately predicted (see here and here) that James' departure assures the BC Liberals of a fourth consecutive electoral victory.

That view is echoed by Kennedy Stewart, a professor at Simon Fraser University and one-time federal NDP candidate (see here.)
=========

they would of gotten a 4th term if Ms. James stayed too. As long as only two main parties the NDP never will win, they need another viable party to split the vote in order to win.

If Carole James

If Carole James were leading the NDP party going into the next election then for the first time in all of my voting life I would have had too find someone else too vote for or not vote. Carole James might be good at something but not running a NDP party she has already lost 2 elections was she hoping for a 3rd too lose. Like Jenny Kwan said she is too wishy washy.

two wrongs don't make for a win

I don't know what the 13 where thinking but they certainly weren't doing the party any favors coming up with whatever dirt they could and now the dirt will stick like glue.

With James we had a 21%

With James we had a 21% lead, without her, we're tied with the Liberals. I'd rather be 21% ahead.
==========

oh? The last poll with Ms. James the NDP were only p 5%. http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2010/11/19/MustelPoll/

Lost two elections?

History of a party left with two
Then along comes Carol James how do you do
Another election and a receission no doubt
puts the NDP on the outs
The Liberals can't be trusted and that is where Carol wins out.

Well done, Will.

"Why they -- and many other New Democrats -- believe this to be so is puzzling. How can it be that the party that has been competitive in nine of British Columbia's last 10 general elections (the exception being 2001), and formed the government on three occasions, is so badly fractured or paralyzed by James' departure that it won't be able to compete -- even with a shiny new leader?"

Great analysis by Will as usual.

And you ask a good question above.

I think there are a lot of insiders who want the public to believe the bicycle is broken.

The public doesn't feel that at all.

The insider guys and gals sealed within the party apparatus and wrapped up within a cocoon of constant polling and trending, no longer hear or see the people anymore ....nor do they apparently want to.

My view is an independent candidates system has some appeal but that it also has its own specific problems, ( that it is power that has to be addressed in whatever system is taken on) but I would agree with Jerry Munro that the world is changing at warp speed right now....and that the Status Quo Inc. is being taken on big time - from the outrage expressed by individual citizens as they try to survive through these difficult times to the global dissent of Wikileaks that is welding the world in common purpose.

Dan the socialist

"oh? The last poll with Ms. James the NDP were only p 5%."

You'll also notice that poll showed no decline for the NDP in spite of it being done after Campbell resigned.

You will also notice that if you want to use Mustel, CJ's approval rating was always over 40% (from June of 2008 anyway) until the knives came out for her in November when her approval suddenly nosedived to 33%.

offended

"Incorrect. The party had a 21% lead"

Well, whatever, but the party without her has no lead at all.

Terrys_Hot

So if you'd vote for someone else if we had kept CJ I hope you're not going to tell us to rally around each other and go after the Liberals.

Liberal Strategy

Call an early election while NDP party trys to come together with their new leader and unite.
Because there is one thing certain the Liberals are a united front even when their leader is at 9%.

Where, Oh Where.... And How, How, How?

Reality: Carole James AND Campbell are ancient history already. And both parties are lurching along behind, pillar to post like disoriented drunks, in the dust of real world development and politics. Both you sets of Party system folks have some serious and fast catching up to do, if either one of you is going to be even half relevant come the next election.

Do either of you even understand, for example, where the "potential" for the majority governance you both desire is to be found? (Hint: Nancy Kwan "seemed" to understand in one of her statements.)

That said, I think this "potential" is beyond the reach of both of you, even if you understand it. The disaffection and cynicism with the Party System is just too great right now. And the distrust of both Parties.

C'mon Frank, quote us one of your famous polls that y'all put so much faith in, in place of real understanding, analysis and progressive vision. (Even the dissenting NDP faction seems to lack it overall. At least thus far.) Amuse us. I haven't had my daily laugh yet. :-) Just a smile. It's all I could muster.

James ousted because party was going to win

Not the other way around as James stood at 36% and even with Clark, the media's darling doing her coming out James still topped her.
It is my theory and I'm sticking to it only problem is now the party has to win or the few members actions it will drive the party farther apart and that is why it dosen't make any sense. No I believe there where those who seen a victory coming and felt they could do it better like egg head Simpson telling the NDP members what they need to do next.

coyote

Who is Nancy Kwan? Is that an example of "real understanding, analysis and progressive vision"?

Here's the thing, I use facts available to all, not ones I make up.

If instead of polls you want to tell me what the guy next door or the woman at the local Tim Horton's thinks, then by all means do so. Their opinion is valid but they don't represent anyone but themselves.

Anyway, I'm on the edge of my seat to learn where the potential for majority government lies. I'm assuming its by appealing to those who are too pure to vote but I'll wait and see.

Pardon me, but with respect

What kind of dream world are you people living in?

The NDP has elected 3 governments (and in one of those cases they did it with less popular vote than their opponents had) in the period since 1920. That's 90 years. The NDP ONLY forms government when the existing power structure is, for one reason or another, temporarily weakened.

Folks, that was now - and we've blown the chance to take full advantage of it by turning ourselves into a dog chasing its own tail.

And it doesn’t have anything to do with the government’s record – in fact, the NDP record in the 90s (a much more difficult time, at least so far, than the current decade has been) is, in almost every respect, superior to the Campbell score sheet.

You can confirm that by talking to Will McMartin (or you can read his columns on the subject in the Tyee archives).

So, the simple declaration that the Liberal ‘record’ will bring them down hasn’t much evidence to support it either.

Of the two actual NDP victories (Barrett’s and Harcourt’s) you can only say that Barrett’s was fashioned by a strong leader – Harcourt’s certainly wasn’t.

So, where’s the evidence that the NDP ‘needs’ a strong leader to win?

On the other hand, there is ample evidence to support the contention Frank and zalm and I have advanced. To wit, that:
a) The NDP is always attacked for a tendency toward internal struggles;
b) The media will NEVER give the NDP an even break;
c) The right wing will always have more money and support than the NDP does because it is THE party of the establishment; and so,
By failing to support the current leader and by fracturing the caucus, the Maoist 13 have – on the basis of the balance of probabilities – made the job of whomever leads the Liberals in the next election – infinitely easier than it would have been.

That Ms James not winning (you can't logically say she lost because the NDP was not in government when the writ was dropped - in other words, only the governing party could actually 'lose' an election) in 2005 and 2009 is hardly exceptional. That's the normal thing that happens in this province. One may not like it – but there it is.

Look at it in another way and the NDP has really only won two elections in 90 years: 1972 and 1991. They hung onto government in 1996 but they didn't win the popular vote.

Therefore, in only two cases since 1920 has the NDP or its predecessor actually 'won' elections and yet, Tyee people who nominally support - Tommy Gunn actually 'guaranteed' that the NDP would win the 2009 election - the party are excited because the current version of NDP caucus has managed, arguably, and in the space of a few weeks, to make the job of beating a wounded BCLiberal party a lot more difficult than it could have been.

I think he may also have ‘guaranteed’ that Harper would lose the 2008 election too.
As a prognosticator, my friend, your record ain’t that great!

Moving to the left

Who ever wins the leadership must move the party back to the left...this centrist progressive garbage won't do... democratic socialism...that is what I voted for in 1973 (I still have my "socialst hordes button) as a first time voter and what I would like to vote for in the next election....so whoever can deliver a platform of social justice and pushing back against concentration of wealth to a more egalitarian system...will have my support...

So, how much longer is this

So, how much longer is this self destructive yammering going to go on ?

How about committing mass suicide like the faithful followers of the Rev.Jones have done ?

Now, there was a great leader, if there ever was one. I'm sure, some of the people on this blog would have been happy to follow him.

On the other hand, I also seem to remember a certain world war, as I should because I was fighting in it, lost by Germany and Japan, because of their "leadership".

The best thing that ever happened to both.

Ed Deak.

No more leaders

I didn't realize Germany, (Italy, Finland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania) and Japan were defeated by leaderless collectives.

I noticed here in BC that independents have very little support. People seem to want parties with leaders.

I guess we'll just have to wait for Harry Lali to start his own party where there's "collective leadership" to see how that turns out.

Ed

It'll go on for a while yet.. My contacts within the NDP (unlike you I haven't had a membership for at least 20 years - although my support for the party during that period has been undivided) tell me that caucus is a mess - pretty much reflecting what you read here at Tyee.

I've tried to spell out what I see as the history of electoral success for the NDP in my post a couple of steps back above us.

That's the background here in BC - a reality you know all too well - and that's the context against which the current drama must play out.

Which was why - and I did it plainly and often here long before this crisis - it was important for the party to do whatever had to be done in such a way as to avoid giving the public the impression that the caucus was falling apart.

They failed in spades...and, after failing, through what seems to me to be both a lack of logical thought and sensible tactics, it is now a stretch beyond comprehension for many supporters (especially among women) and an even larger segment of the population - not to mention the media and the Campbell government (not one leader of the BC Liberals is an outsider or a break from Campbell) – to suggest that this won’t be the dynamic in place for at least the next 6 – 12 months.

Party support has – exactly as predicted – plummeted.

And, at the same time, the people who post here at Tyee have the effrontery to blame people who said the Maoist 13’s caper was a dumb idea.

I know you’re not doing that – and I respect you for it. But that doesn’t mean this mess won’t deepen and thicken – it is, sadly enough, simply human nature.

exactly...

"Politics in British Columbia is a rough, tough and often nasty business. As it is elsewhere."
What a vision of hope - inspiring it aint. But go on now, go on and ask any member of the public who doesn't belong to a party what they think of these antics. Of course, that would hardly be scientific, but there is a great deal of research to show what citizens are actually looking for from their elected representatives. Little point in repeating it here, but the 'next great leader' is not even on the radar - if the voters are truly stupid they appear to be smarter than some posting here.
As some have said, the effect of the coup against Carole James raises serious questions about the nature of 'leadership' and integrity. Dismiss these fundamental concerns at your peril, because the voting public simply is not as indifferent as you believe.
Frank, G West, zalm...thanks.

Take a few deep breaths

and read these two important essays by Corky Evans. Then shut off you computers for an hour and think about what you really should be saying and doing:

The Big Lie:
http://richardhughes.ca/politics/the-big-lie-corky-evans/

Thoughts about 'what's next":
http://richardhughes.ca/politics/the-big-lie-corky-evans/

data and source please:

"Party support has – exactly as predicted – plummeted."

What is being achieved with

What is being achieved with the continuation of this name calling, crying circus ?

I'm disappointed with the Tyee for bringing on these endless, useless and needless opportunities for more of this crap.

I have it from a good source, that the sun is expected to rise tomorrow and perhaps even next year and people will need food on their tables and beds to sleep in, and there are powers sharpening their "investments" to steal them, with the help of certain politicians.

Fighting this, the biggest crime wave in human history is far more important than the hot air pushing, going on here.

Well, shall we get another article with CJ's photo featured, tomorrow, so the arguments over past history go on endlessly?

Ed Deak.

toppling Carole James

Question for the Baker's Dozen: Where is your Plan B? Just like the old nursery rhyme, there is nobody ready to put the NDP together again.
Jennie Kwan needed a planning manual before she
pulled the rug out from under us. What do we do to be ready to form the government? If Kwan knows, she isn't saying, beyond the same old platitudes of "renewal" and "vision". What fools these mortals be!

kmdyson

"Who ever wins the leadership must move the party back to the left...this centrist progressive garbage won't do"

If that's reflective of the NDP membership, then the NDP are in big trouble if they elect a leader on that basis.

And if the leadership candidates begin to utilize leftist rhetoric to appeal to the NDP membership base, as they surely will, the MSM will pick up on it further disenchanting centrist voters.

And that's another one of the dangers that lurks with a leadership race.

The only guy that could give the NDP a shot is Farnworth just due to the fact that he's well known and on the right side of the NDP. The other contenders are either left of Carole or have no public stature at all.

If the NDP goes for somebody left of Carole the typical NDP provincial vote of 42% will shrink. Is it any wonder that the further left federal NDP only received 26% in BC during the last federal election?

It also looks like the current NDP troubles are affecting BC's federal vote intentions based upon an Ipsos poll that came out in the last half hour:

Con: 44%
Lib: 26%
NDP: 18%
Green: 12%

data and source - as requested

http://www.angus-reid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2010.12.09_Politics_BC.pdf

Getting back on the bicycle

Again, there are those who want you to believe the NDP bicycle is broken.

It isn't....so far....but they are trying real hard to make it so.

Wonder why?

It's the cower and duct tape strategy of the Insider Club....who seem to like to make the NDP into a losers club.

Sorry....it's not working.

The true strength of the NDP has always been its democratic socialist roots.

We just need to honour and stand by them.

These are times of great risk and great opportunity....and usually in life , you don't get one without the other...

Carpe diem, folks.

Thanks for the link, G

Thanks for the link, G West.

Campbell's resignation has to also be factored into those results.

Williams Lake Tribune

Choosing to Represent You by Bob Simpson

December 9th, 2010

This week I resigned from the NDP and will sit as a true Independent in the BC Legislature.

My experience with party politics has not been a positive or productive one. An experience, unfortunately, that is shared by the majority of British Columbians who either do not vote, or who feel they have to hold their nose when they vote.

Political parties were meant to be organizing tools, not ends in themselves. They were meant to allow like-minded people to come together to organize for elections and then work together in the Legislature with all of the other elected members to provide good government.

Today, the prospects of the “Party” overshadow the needs of the electorate. Petty partisanship and one-upmanship create a cycle of perpetual electioneering which prevents our Legislature from being used to address the critical issues confronting us. Scandals and rumours of scandals are the fodder of Question Period, not issues of substance. Debate in the House is used as an opportunity to discredit the other party as unworthy of the public’s trust at the next election rather than an opportunity for informed debate leading to good governance.

Voters want MLAs to speak the truth, act with integrity, and always put the public interest ahead of their own or the interest of their political party. But this ideal is almost impossible to achieve within the current Party system where MLAs are muzzled and required to put their Party’s political interests ahead of those of their constituents.

I believe having more Independents in the legislature will provide an opportunity to create a climate for democratic reform. As an Independent, I will be free to raise issues of sustainability, social justice, and progressive economics in a proactive manner which will challenge all Parties to address these issues rather than simply fight with each other.

With Carole James’ resignation, some have asked me to remain within the NDP and join those who will be using this as an opportunity to renew the party. However, I believe that directing my energies toward the internal fight within the NDP is the not the best and most productive way to serve my constituents or to drive a public call for true democratic reform leading to good governance.

I will be setting up an Independent Riding Association soon and will be looking for people to support me in preparing to run in the next election as an Independent.

However, my main focus will continue to be representing Cariboo North to the best of my ability and to advocate for good governance and a sustainable and just society. I will be your independent voice in Victoria.

seth

I'll enjoy embarrassing you here but then I do it on such a regular basis its getting old.

From your own link which you didn't bother to read obviously :

"The Mustel Group poll, taken between Nov. 4 and 15 in the days after Premier Gordon Campbell announced his resignation, had the NDP at 42 percent"

If you go to the Mustel poll itself you'll find the previous Mustel poll back in September ALSO showed the NDP at 42%. Which means the resignation of Campbell had absolutely no effect on NDP support according to Mustel.

Therefore my earlier point stands, the only data point we have between Campbell resigning and James resigning contradicts Canseco.

As you used to say word for word about Carole James, you're pathetic, shrill and a know-nothing.

They All Suck!...

Cutting to the chase.

I think it is clear enough, even while I personally favour a non-party electoral system, with caveats that Lynn and I at least "seem" to share, that the far greater likelihood "in the time frame" is... that the next election is going to be fought along "Party System" lines.

And, contrary to whatever other views of myself may be out there, I am in fact a realist. And I am fully prepared to vote along Party lines, if I have no other option. But, likewise with the caveat that I am convinced it will actually do some good. There will be some point to the exercise. And I will not "vote" within any context, just to be able to say, "I have voted."

The problem is, still, I see nothing out there in "any" Party that has me convinced that there is any point voting. Libs aren't even in the running from the get go. I am an anti-Capitalist. But neither have I seen or read anything coming out of either faction of the NDP that has me convinced it is worth my time and effort to get out and vote for them. (And I understand the role and usefulness of compromise... as necessary.) But all I see is a bag full of losers, kicking, screaming and roiling like a bunch of cats in a sack, not a one of them with an analysis, a serious progressive idea, let alone a thought out vision or programme of action, ideologically or otherwise piecemeal cobbled hurriedly together.

You can kiss the ass of all the polls you want. The point for me is, I see nothing out there as yet actually worth bothering myself in the least voting for... and I will not vote on empty, pointless mere "principle" alone.

So, you NDPers want my vote, cash and or participation, as a Serious Left Winger, and thus far I only get a sense of "contempt" for my perspective, then you better start doing a whole lot more sucking than blowing between here and election day. Otherwise, you are going to have to do it on your pathetic own.

At this point I continue to urge, Don't Vote. Walk Away From The Assholes All.... While the Alternative Continues To Be Built.

Then get out and help build it.

They All Suck!

Chris Keam

"I think we need to find a way to better protect our civil service, so they can take on the role of informing the public when elected officials are dropping the ball."

Excellent comment. We need something better than the pale and helpless "whistleblower" legislation we already have. However, along with that, we need to ensure that the civil service remains non-politicized - this despite the best efforts of Gordo, Dobell and the Fiberals to make it an extension of the "natural governing party". Whistleblowing for political ends is stillaa travesty, something I'm sure the hijackers with all their pure morals would agree with.

It's a particularly evil thing when either side - any side - politicizes the civil service. Any ideas?

coyote

As I said the other day I'm not begging for your vote. I think pleasing you would lose lots of other people.

Its the other faction that thinks they can please both you and the centre.

Jeffrey J.

"Direct democracy is an ill-defined concept but more democracy is a very, very good thing. Can we ever have too much democracy? Extremely unlikely, but certainly not something that we're even close to having."

Direct democracy is very specifically defined.

And I see no evidence whatsoever of the citizenry being any more engaged than a decade ago. They do want to be heard, though - in fact, all I see are a lot of complaints without substance or direction on twitter, facebook, or other blogs, but no real action or effort by anyone except perhaps the Kielburgers to actually change anything.

I will know that there is change in the air when I see the Christmas retail sales figures dropping year over year. Otherwise, everyone you claim is actively engaged with you in building a brave new world, is actually consuming their brains out, and one of the things they're consuming is your thoughts. Then, when they're sated, tired, fat and happy, if they have any energy left before bedtime or clicking a DVD into the idiotbox, then you'll get some of their attention, but never their commitment.

Half the bunch here is the perfect example.

Crystal clear, pootle

...and unfortunately, quite accurate. Hopefully someone comes out with an answer that envisions a different future....

Fiat Lux

"Look at the millions of lives ruined by politicians, around the world , every day ,before crying over them.

No "leader" got killed, or had an accident or became sick."

One small quibble. Lech Kaczynski paid the ultimate price with his cabinet and scores of others - and it seems it was due at least in part to his own bull-headedness about where to land the plane. So, every once in a while, there is some justice, at least, according to your view of it.

More seriously, you've long been known for hating all "isms" including the current bunch of NDP masquerading as socialists. So forgive me for being utterly confused, when you say:
"When will this idiotic yammering, accusations and finger pointing stop and people get back to work and positive thinking ?

The NDP is far from dead, in spite of what some "insiders" would love to see, to prove their point. "

This sounds like you want the NDP to re-form, and whatever "ism" they represent to you, to compete in the political arena for the right to govern the province.

So which is it? Direct democracy, or party politics? And how could I have misunderstood you so badly?

I think Bernie Saunders

I think Bernie Saunders articulates a good platform for the NDP. It is the old one! Aren't we a socio-democratic party?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5rcnAWaC64

Right now he is filibustering the tax cuts. And, this from a 70 year old man! Would everyone be so true to their values.

If we are not this, then we are nothing really. Or, at least, anywhere I'd be comfortable. It's the Canada I grew up in, even if it wasn't always, BC's formally unique politics.

We only have to look to Washington to see how the 'center' is faring for the Democratic Party. Their very loyal base has just turned. How weak can a president be to need a former president stand up with the WH insignia behind him in pushing yet another 'compromise'?

As one astute blogger said, there is no center anymore. We're too polarized. The center is now a myth.
As a poster mentioned, do we really think that what happened in Iceland, Ireland, Greece, Chile etc is not going to happen here?

We don't really know when the election will be held. A lot can change in a very short time, as we know. So, polls at this stage are irrelevant.

I sometimes wonder if CJ promised to bring in the STV the way some are so disappointed.
I can't remember if you are a supporter, GWest. I remember, Frank was.

Anyway, here's hoping that CJ's, after some rest and perspective will do the right thing for the party, and let her supporters off the emotional hook and work at mending fences. If she really can't forgive and forget, then perhaps she will leave outright. That will go a long way for the party. If she intends on remaining as MLA, as she has stated, or plans on running again, it would be the wisest thing to do.

I have expressed already that I feel she has had a large part in this dissention. And, I feel annoyed about it. I don't know her personally, but, I assume she is basically a decent person.

Thanks for the

Thanks for the clarification, G West.

There are lots of points on which to agree. I don't trust Simpson at all and am assuming the 13 MLA's decision was not manipulated by him because they could see through him, but rather other issues, including electability and leadership and democratic policy.

I am hopeful that the NDP have a really good opportunity to pull together and come out much stronger.

Brutal? Seriously?

> Making Sense of a Brutal Political Season in BC <

There is nothing brutal about the divide et impera circus. A few annoying personages are retracted, only to be replaced by the fresher ones. The puppeteers will stay safe, stable and happier than ever—until we realise our role is to be screwed no matter who heads which party.

Quit-yer-bitchun

1-anyone who thinks the 13 did what they did without support from their local party members & constituents doesn't know much about politics
2-Carole James should have resigned gracefully in 2009 & this fiasco would have been avoided
3-Carole is gone, if you truly are a social democrat stop undermining the NDP & that includes those writing insulting columns

When Ujjal was elected leader, I thought it was a huge mistake, but I sucked it up & did my part in 2001. I phoned 22 of the 23 polls by myself in my riding, it was brutal. I have a long-term disability which is aggravated by stress but I did it anyway, because I believed it was for the good of the party & the good of the people of BC. Took me months to get my health back & left me with a slight aversion to the phone. If those of you doing all the carping are as dedicated then I'll shut up, if not...

The whole world is in danger, this is no time for wishy-washy politicians or politics. There is much work to do & little time to do it. Like the old poster from the 60's or was it the early 70's said, "IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM."

The Tyee...

Is working very well.

I have tried for years to get someone in the NDP to take some advice, the only one who ever actually listened was Shreck.

Now we have a forum where progressives can have some input into the party we vote and work for in elections.

CJ was bounced because progressives want to win the next election; they know too well the Socred/Liberals are selling out our province and want it stopped, NOW.

The Tyee is an excellent resourse and should on the desktop of every progressive in BC.

Time to stop fighting and get working.

I would expect the liberal backroom boys would have more than one ''plant'' on this forum

Solidarity, Organize, Fight Back... Screw The Parties All.

At one level, even with all the name calling, this has been a fairly fun thread. Though mostly, for the young and old poor, the unemployed, union workers disgusted with the endless retreat going on in their working lives, and working class women and men generally... up to their assholes in debt and ever falling behind, this thread has been a demonstration that there is no solution to the problems of our lives and society right now within "formal" politics. It is a dead-end, embroiled in its own incestuous manoeuvring and gamesmanship.

The other fact is, the Bank of Canada says in a statement being reported on the media this morning, that a major financial meltdown of the Canadian economy may be looming, arising out of the meltdowns in Ireland, Greece, Spain and spreading across Europe, including England, like a contagion. All of which has huge implications in the US as well, of course.

The point being that this socio-economic mess within all capitalism right now could very well suddenly get much, much worse... AND, there is no hope of solution within current politics of any stripe, for us right now... not within Canada. Out of which arises the other point that needs to be drawn by our struggling working class citizenry: Screw the "formal" political system. Period. If you do not organize yourselves, start to look after and stand in solidarity with each other, organize to fight for economic and power share against the ruling class and its dominance... this is likely going to be long and increasingly brutal for you and your families.

Food banks and such are necessary, but they are not enough, in and of themselves. There needs to be mounted by working class folks, by students and others, a major and militant counter to the ruling class monopoly shaping the period and your lives.

In this context, the next election doesn't matter a twaddle. No matter who gets in power, it will resolve nothing and ameliorate very little. All the vanguardist Parties, without exception, are irrelevant at this point.

The real key to it all, to turning it all around and making sense out of it is YOU. God is not coming down from his Heaven to save you. Organize, build your own class solidarity, resist and begin to fight back... or submit to the increased brutalization of your lives. Aided and abetted by all the Parties to Capitalism. None of them has a plan for anything, and even if they did, are still subject to the ruling class economic veto.

Thanks for your post, Zalm.

Thanks for your post, Zalm. I just lost a long one to you. Suffice it to say, I'm aware Canada has it's shortcomings. It has had it's fine moments too. We don't hear about those, however. After 30 years of being around anti-oppression dogma, I now believe, that it is the same old, 'we're okay, you're not okay. And, believe more in heart connections, now.

I was talking about a Canada that during my formative years, worked for the acceptance of other cultures and part of the public,discourse, included, taking care of others less fortunate, 'we're as strong as our weakest link', learning and being open to other cultures etc. Canada was a pretty rural, unsophisticated place not that long ago and things must be taken in historical context and in the context of what the world was doing at that time. Not to deny nor minimize big injustices and very real and personal hurts.

I agree that the NDP vote may improve things somewhat for those receiving the brunt of this 'brave new, old, world'!

Have a good day! :)

Zalm may Slam

Zalm made some well written points, about how he believes "Direct democracy" could "not" work.

He seems to have the idea that the "representatives" presently affiliated with "parties", must have more knowledge and more understanding of the issues than an "independent".

When we have a coalition government, we are closest to having a true "direct democracy".
Only when there is a "minority" or "coalition" are the the "representatives" and their "handlers" forced to respect the will of people.

"Referendums" are not a necessity of Direct Democracy, they are a "tool", that insures faux pas such as the "Liberals" had with the HST, would not have happened. Further, Referendums, do not have to be expensive, unless purported by those against them.

Is it true that the "Major Parties", with their "better" funding, can pick smarter people, with prettier faces than the "public" can?

Might I suggest, that at the bottom of every ballot there be a "None Of The Above" and that should that "vote" win we have a by-election with none of the previous candidates allowed to run. That we we will not be forced to settle for the lesser of the evils. "Evil democracy" rears its ugly head against the people.
Hope?

A victory for democracy over centralized power

Good riddance. Long overdue. The mainstream media tried to come to James rescue because they like a sure thing. (A sure BC Lib win).
It sickened me that James was the only MLA who had a vote in the 84% show of power.
What is the point of us electing ndp mla's if the mla's have absolutely no power to do or say anything?
You can lead the MLA's to the trough but that thankfully does not make them all sheep.
It is time to change the ndp party constitution to give the mla's back some real power. Otherwise, in one or 2 elections, the ndp will be replaced by another party of the left.

Politics:

The Brutal Political Season is over: Onwards and upwords, lets move forwards. Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Dazed and confused

In the last couple of weeks I have noticed that the comments of seemingly pro NDP Party types have escalated from mild disagreements to next to full-blown warfare. I don't know if the roughly dozen of you are card-carrying members and get to vote on the next leader of the party or not. And, from what I have read, the membership of the NDP Party numbers around 10,000 people. This means you all represent less than 1% of those that will vote for the next leader.

You may ask why I bring this up. It is a given fact that the MSM looks for any news that supports the BC Liberal Party and de3nigrates the NDP Party. The Tyee seems to take the opposite view of the MSM, and as such, is a good source of information on how the NDP supporters view the temperature of the Party faithful. In other words, you are assisting the MSM in predicting the ultimate demise of your Party.

The messy resignation of Carole James as leader was bad enough, but the constant vindictive diatribe just keeps adding ammo for the MSM to draw from, which seems to be counter-productive.

I suspect that the official entry of Christy Clark into the race for the leadership of the Liberals will not only liven up their race, but likely ceate a few rifts within their seemingly smooth running machine. She is the loose cannon that could well put the focus back upon the incompetence of Gordo's reign of terror as she uses every dirty trick in the book to achieve her goal. It would be best if the NDP faithful took their internal disagreements underground.

The NDP may not have ingratiated themselves with the electorate lately, but the Liberals have given the new leader of the NDP so much ammo, that even if the new leader of the Libs decides to call a snap election, he or she should have a decent chance to become victorious.

If the NDP is the Party of social conscience, as they profess to be, then it is time for them to put their petty ideals aside for the better good of all of the citizens of BC. As a volunteer at our local Food Bank, I see a lot of people that are in dire straits, and their only hope is for a change of governance.

The ball is now in your court. Are you up to the challenge?

Indeed, On This Tyee Ship I...

"lynn...you`re the last one standing? Wouldn`t surprise me at all.
Jerry...one of your best ones yet just above.
John Greg..always enjoy your posts." bobthecat.

Thank you, bobthecat. And I will but echo GWest above in saying how good it is to see your moniker on here again. Best wishes to you and yours.

Otherwise, again, I find it very interesting to see all the really insightful comments of many on here of late,, even of those with whom I much otherwise disagree. :-) There seems to have been an explosion of interest, certainly participation in Tyee over the course of this particular discussion. Which is a good thing.

Examples of which, for starters:

Brian White, whom I take it to be an NDP supporter at least. "It is time to change the ndp party constitution to give the mla's back some real power. Otherwise, in one or 2 elections, the ndp will be replaced by another party of the left."

And you are right, I think, Brian. The winds of change are blowing ever stronger and more insistent, and coming on at an accelerating pace. The NDP will get this, or be carried away into history by them. And at this point, I am not optimistic for them. (Though there are certainly very many good and progressive people in the NDP.)

And then in the two following paragraphs, Rantnik packs a whole bunch of, in my view, powerfully relevant observations.

"When we have a coalition government, we are closest to having a true "direct democracy".
Only when there is a "minority" or "coalition" are the the "representatives" and their "handlers" forced to respect the will of people.

"Referendums" are not a necessity of Direct Democracy, they are a "tool", that insures faux pas such as the "Liberals" had with the HST, would not have happened. Further, Referendums, do not have to be expensive, unless purported by those against them."

I would only add that, again in my understanding of the social and economic evidence arriving before us, the economic system is going to have to change, be "democratized" as distinct from State "nationalized", which is going to more and more be made clear by, interact with and help drive the parallel need to fundamentally change our "formal" democratic system as well.

continued next post...

Indeed On This Tyee Ship II...

from previous post...

The logic and hold over the people of the Old Order is indeed rapidly fading... and becoming ever more obvious to more people. (Even if it manifests itself, I think, in a "seeming" negative way thus far... as a declining "participation rate" in the status quo.

It seems "the system" must first fall into simple "disuse" before it becomes fully clear and engaged in to build something that will more actually work, and be more satisfactory to us, to replace it. Which hence, is why I advocate, right now, unless something dramatic changes to indicate otherwise, and this "could" still happen, that we simply in greater numbers start more consciously and with purpose, walking away from it... withdrawing our support for it, from which it draws a self-perpetuating, unfair and inequality serving legitimacy.

All down the line

The "Old Order" or some sort of order will always remain. The people of BC won't buy into your Marxist, Maoist hopes for revolution or some epiphany by the people. As we've seen in Communist states, the cost of the people's revolution is too high, especially when it comes to the number of dead people.

The NDP is fighting for it's life. It's gasping for its last breaths of relevance. It's a struggle between the union thugs who are too busy thinking about winning the election, but who have ignored they are destroying their own party. They will have no choice but to form their own far left, activist, pro-union party. Then whoever is left over can form the centre left.

There is definitely a need for a economically responsible, pro-business, centre left party in BC. The remaining union dinosaurs have consistently over rated their attractiveness to today's BC voters. Sometimes you have to destroy the village in order to save it. In this case, the NDP is staging its own Zippo party.

Some Participation Studies... for starters.

"Voter turnout is the percentage of eligible voters who cast a ballot in an election. After increasing for many decades, there has been a trend of decreasing voter turnout in most established democracies since the 1960s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout

"Also, from this same study regarding Parties:
Over the last 40 years, voter turnout has been steadily declining in the established democracies.[1] This trend has been significant in the United States, Western Europe, Japan and Latin America. It has been a matter of concern and controversy among political scientists for several decades. During this same period, other forms of political participation have also declined, such as voluntary participation in political parties and the attendance of observers at town meetings."

From another study of under thrity participation, including in political parties: The year 2000 is the earliest I could find a stufy of the subject from.

"Canadians currently under the age of thirty appear to constitute a qualitatively distinct political
generation. This distinctiveness lies not in their ideological orientations, but rather in their disengagement
from formal political processes and institutions. The manifestation of this disengagement that has caught
the attention of political scientists is low voting turnout: only one in four Canadians under the age of
twenty-five voted in the 2000 federal election (Pammett and LeDuc). Probing more deeply, it becomes
evident that Canadians under the age of thirty are less likely to perceive membership in a political
community – whether it be national, regional, local, or based on language or gender – to be a salient
aspect of their political identity (Raney 2004). It is also evident that young Canadians have lower levels
of knowledge about politics and interest in politics than do older generations (Gidengil et al 2004).
Given the low rates of voting, political knowledge and political interest among young Canadians,
it comes as little surprise that few are joining political parties. In our 2000 Study of Canadian Political
Party Members (SCPPM), we found a remarkable dearth of young Canadians involved in federal
political parties. Our data indicate that the average age of a member of the five major Canadian federal
parties in 2000 was 59."

http://www.ucalgary.ca/iaprfiles/technicalpapers/iapr-tp-041005.pdf

It is extremely difficult to get participation rates in "Parties" per se. But what evidence there is suggests strongly that since at least 1960, this figure has as well been in steady decline.

crankypants

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but once the party was ripped in half its too late for party solidarity to be imposed.

Its like shooting a family member and then trying to get everyone together for a reunion.

Like it or not this is where we are now.

coyote

Its naive to believe that if all political parties went away tomorrow a new system of democracy would take root where everyone works together and everybody participates and everyone would be left-wing.

As soon as parties disappeared new groups (parties) would form.

bob the cat:

Brubeck is still warming our home in Desolation Sound thanks to your generous soul.

We read he turned 90 last week....and still going strong.

(Apparently he just had a pacemaker put in and remarked that there was a cartoon that had him saying: "Hey, Doc -- can you put this thing in 5/4 time?" )

All the best to you and P.

lynn

Parties vs Community Democracy Systems I...

I would certainly expect the same divergence of opinion as exist now, to carry over to a "non-party"system. What would change is, the manner of selection, ie, I would at least expect the a community/riding would be divided into a number of critical "citizen sectors."

1.) Organized and unorganized labour.
2.) Chamber of Commerce representing small business. (The large scale enterprises sector would be "democratized" itself, no longer existing as a corporate sector.) At least in my ideal world. :-)
3.) A number of other community/riding sectors covering the population as a whole, such as NGOs... Recreational interests, Environmental etc..

In any case, however that is finally decided, each sector would meet amongst themselves (their memberships, delegates whatever) and select candidates from amongst themselves to put on a ballot to the upcoming provincial/federal election, where they would be voted on by the entire community/riding, selecting say, one MLA out of the advanced list.

There would be no Parties allowed, strictly controlled electoral financing in the run-up, my preference, coming from a public electoral financing oversight and provider, and guaranteed equal media time etc.

The candidate finally selected would be beholden to his community/riding, not any particular Party, and subject after a time, say two years, to a workable Recall provision, in the event...

No doubt there would be competing interests, but all arising out of a particular community/riding, each equally treated by way of finance and media etc. An electoral oversight commission would be required to police all expenditures, with no "third party" funding coming from business, individuals or labour organizations etc.

So, I think you are wrong Frank. There is no problem to it that cannot in one way or another be resolved, more fairly and equitably in all regards than the current "special interests" system.

If you wanted to run, for example, you would have to seek the support of your sector: union, chamber of commerce, ngo sector etc democratic selection process to advance. In the end, you would have to win the vote of your community/riding as now.

I understand that "Party" interests, hostile to the new system might attempt to corrupt and/or sabotage it, for which new laws would be needed to prevent and punish, of course. As there are electoral laws now.

continued next post...

Parties vs Community Democracy Systems II...

from previous post...

All these problems as would arise, are as capable of being resolved as must the current system deal with.

So, don't give me that "Party Spin", Frank. :-)

The principle idea to be, to wind up with representation fully free and beholden to speak for a particular community/riding citizenry, rather than, once in governance, to a narrow Party selection process and "whipped" into submission Party discipline that serves the Party interest over a particular community/riding.

There are other issues of course, which I have previously dealt with here. But we can deal with them one by one again... for those that might wish it.

The critical element however, that I see, is that corrupting "private corporate sector", or "private large scale enterprise". It must be dealt with at the same time through "democratization" of the commanding heights of the economy.

My view. And I understand the difficulty current Party Loyalists will have seeing any other possibilities. It is the same for any major change in a thing or way of doing things, that has been for a very long time. It is the problem status quo interests have had with major social and economic changes as have occurred across likely the entire sweep of human history.

Still, we are entering such a "need time".

politics - by any other name...

"...data on membership (and not simply participation) in voluntary organizations and activities tend to confirm that youth are scarcely present in political parties and political action organizations, but that this trend has been ongoing since the early 1980s (Table 8). Their membership in these organizations has also been lower than individuals in the 50+ group since the early 1980s. Over the past thirty years however, there has been an increase in the number of youth that belong to art, music and cultural organizations, as well as groups interested in protecting the environment and/or defending animal rights, and to professional associations. In all other types of organizations, youth involvement has not changed significantly. It should be mentioned that in 2000, youth were very involved in art, music and cultural organizations (25%) and in sports and recreational organizations (34%), in significantly higher numbers than the 50+ group."

The quote is from some data on a Government of Canada website, and there is much more to be found there. Voter participation is declining, but that should not be mistaken for lack of interest in politics.(This report discusses this, there is obviously much too much to quote). The research really is required reading for everybody, but most particularly all those who are firmly convinced that the 'next great leader' or a shift to the 'left' (insert your choice here) etc. etc. will revive any parties. Our problem, for those of us on the 'left' side of the spectrum, is to prevent the likes of the Liberals from getting elected, and as zalm has pointed out there is no where else to go, and thus we are so badly torn as to contemplate not voting at all.

The excerpt I've chosen here is indicative of a wide range of research available.If you truly are interested in politics, please go off and find some: not political punditry, opinion, or yet more ranting.The most common complaint I have heard for example,is that youth are uninterested in politics, but this is far too simplistic to be true (and boomers are opting out of politics to a greater degree than youth.)

If we look at the hard data, it would seem that the generations under 50 are actually doing the practical work of building their communities, whilst those over 50 are by and large waiting around for the next great leader.

Politics by other means than Parties...

"The quote is from some data on a Government of Canada website, and there is much more to be found there. Voter participation is declining, but that should not be mistaken for lack of interest in politics.("

My point precisely.

Otherwise, with maybe a quibble or two, I agree near entirely with everything you have written here. (Though other studies indicate that both participation rates in elections and parties has been declining since the 1960s... throughout the major advanced western or capitalist world. The 1960s being of course, the heyday time of the baby boomers. :-) (Which I actually predate.)

But especially your point about politics taking more forms already than simply "party politics" is, I think, an entirely valid one. Which, if true, indicates that already Party politics is outstripped as a participatory activity, by a wide range of other forms of political activity. Which I think is a good thing.

VivianLeaDoubt

"If we look at the hard data, it would seem that the generations under 50 are actually doing the practical work of building their communities,"

Is this true? Because to my knowledge participation by people under 35 in things like manning food banks and other forms of social work are in decline.

Frank, your supposition may be true:

Frank ~ "Its naive to believe that if all political parties went away tomorrow a new system of democracy would take root where everyone works together and everybody participates and everyone would be left-wing.

but it is even more credulous believing the Political Party exists today other than as a tool for its corporate masters. Support for a Party is evidence of effective social conditioning, despite the warm and fuzzies in the belly for fighting the good fight.

Until we individually take responsibilty to free ourselves from the propaganda, the cutural myths, our one-sided versions of history and our manufactured consent, we will never be free to think autonomously. And without that, are we even free?

When all we see is narrowly confined by the parameters laid forth by those in control, we leave ourselves no option but to be lead, exploited, mistreated and ignored. Call it whatever you wish, Frank, but your idea of democracy sure is enslaving from my point of view.

Capitalism's faceless machinery has colonized our very souls. If the political was not personal to begin with, it's personal now.

Some Americans believe we can collectively triumph over the monolith we presently fear and worship. Others believe the best we can do is to find the personal strength to endure and go forward on lonely inner plains of the self.

Doing either will take inner moral, spiritual and intellectual liberation. It all depends on where you choose to fight your battle. Or if you even choose to fight it. But one thing is certain. The only way out is in.*

*Joe Bageant citation from AMERICA: Y UR PEEPS B SO DUM?

@ Frank

I think you are thinking of "Bowling Alone" and related research...voluntarism is on the rise in the younger cohort, certainly. That does not translate to joining the Elks, though.(Or the NDP) The boomer community is more fragmented because traditional community involvement has gone by the wayside, but younger generations have by and large found their community on the internet regardless of geography... which argues that smarter social media use might be in order by political parties.

I no longer know what is true, do any of us? I think that is why it is so important to read and assimilate all we can, before we form our opinions. Most of the volunteers at my local food bank are a bit older...but there is proportionally much more unemployment in those over 50 here. Younger people seem to be doing community kitchens and the like. It's a different vision of what works to create community, maybe?

VivianLea Doubt

Thanks, certainly encouraging comment as I was under the impression the under 35s weren't doing much for their communities.

samuidave

"Call it whatever you wish, Frank, but your idea of democracy sure is enslaving from my point of view."

Actually I don't find your idea of democracy to be substantially any different than mine.

You want to see citizens that are active, informed, engaged but who don't form into groups with others of like mind.

I want to see citizens that are active, informed, engaged and who do form into groups with others of like mind.

As for an earlier comment about socialism, I was pretty sure you said that's where you stood but if you don't, no problem.

Maybe we'd agree in person, Frank ;)

And I do not take issue with like-minded groups, per se. Heck, I am involved with a few myself. But Party groupings are simply dangerous entities for numerous reasons which I do not feel necessary to delineate but here are a few obvious ones:

entrenched power hierarchy;

take it or leave it group-think;

sacrifices asked to be made for the Party;

dominated by often unacknowledged, outside forces;

secrecy rather than openness prevails;

play into the hands of Main Stream Media's message - the Two Horse Race;

ineffective in representing various factions within own party let alone society; etc

I try to stand on reason, Frank.

How does that saying go...

"I would never join a club that would have me as a member"

The problems with groups and group thinks...Someone is always in charge and the best ideas most often are ignored.

Frank, do you believe that the BC Liberals are united?

They gave Campbell his hail mary pass, they gave him the tax cut announcement on TV...

When that failed to turn public opinion he had to go...And believe me, if Campbell didn`t step up and resign, he would have been thrown out.

Carole failed to do the same thing(resign), someone advised Carole to push back ....We know who it was..

With a snap election coming the party couldn`t wait.

And Frank....It wasn`t the dissidents, it was the grass roots and the general public that removed Carole.

Grant G

Campbell resigned because his party was at 26%, if the Liberals had been at 47% do you think he would have gone? And it was the dissidents, not the general public that removed CJ.

"Frank, do you believe that the BC Liberals are united?"

Not fully, no. Do you think they are?

Who is the next NDP leader?

When you take down a leader you have someone in mind and who that is has me kinda curious.
Lets face it wasn't anybody but Carol for leader that dosen't add up and am wondering who the thirteen felt was fit to be their next leader but so far its all hush, hush?

Death of Liberalism

Jerry..I do find your description of Frank as a "liberal" unfair...I would agree he, GWest and zalm are classical Liberals..intellectuals if you will.. and not at all bearing any likeness at all to the market investor class crazies ruining our B.C. and to refer to them as such is most unfair. As you yourself have said ..the NDP is now ..more like a true Liberal party (or was)...I think Franks dilemma now with the death of Liberalism..as a true Liberal is where to go..obviously the rightwing is not appealing ..and if the NDP moves to the left..a more radicalized NDP..that too is not appealing to Frank and others. I would say "Radicalize" but each must decide..though I don`t really think there will be much choice. Traditionally , Liberals have not been "the enemy". The attached little Chris Hedges piece says it far better than I can..and I do agree mostly with Hedges here..and wonder if it is not true with Frank and others present political dilemma.

http://real-economics.blogspot.com/2010/11/chris-hedges-on-death-of-liberalism.html

bob the cat

Its more based on simple realism. Winning an election trumps ideology.

For example I hope the Liberals select Kevin Falcon because he's more to the Right than most of the population. Therefore his selection as leader makes the Liberals less likely to win an election.

Lots of BC Liberal supporters would no doubt say that he should be the leader anyway because his ideology is closer to their own beliefs but that's just being silly. If his ideology makes him unelectable then who cares what his ideology is?

So my point is why bother selecting a Kevin Falcon of our own? Because if you're not trying to win the election then what you believe in is irrelevant.

Select a leader based on whether or not the general public is willing to vote for them. That means not selecting a leader based on what the party base would like.

Right now only about a third of the people in BC are likely to vote NDP, 1/6 if you count non-voters. I'm willing to bet increasing that likeliness is a better path than decreasing it.

bob the cat...thanks for the kind words

Small point of clarification though.

I'm a socialist - died in the wool - and socialists share a good deal with classical liberals...on that point I agree with what you've said. I honestly don’t see how anyone with a heart and a functioning brain could not be a socialist.

But, I'm also pretty radical and more than ready to push the boundaries whenever possible...I just try to be realistic (or pragmatic) about when that's a logical and realistic thing to do.

I agree with Frank's point about changing the electoral machinery and I supported the STV as the best practical hope for doing that just now. I'd have preferred a mixed-member proportional system with, say, a five-percent threshold for getting into the house..but it's a minor quibble since the chances of changing from first past the post are somewhere between nil and none just now.

So, since we're stuck with the FPP system, there's no practical alternative for a party that wants to form government except to try and appeal to the broadest spectrum of possible supporters in each election...

And that's why the NDP is in its current dilemma. Instead of sticking with the broader appeal that a leader like Carole James represented (whether we liked her or not) a minority of caucus (which ought to have little or no say about the matter according to the rules) has forced her out.

To be replaced by God knows what.

Except, that this gambit tends - again whether we like it or not - to decrease the wider appeal of the party to non-traditional supporters (read folks who voted for Campbell and Co).

It may seem to the more radical elements of the dissident group's members and their supporters that the coup will mean a swing to the left by the party...if it does, I'm enough of a realist to know that won't broaden the party's appeal among voters who are less left wing.

In this province, with its history and dynamics, that means the NDP will lost in support what it gains in leftist purity.

And that's not what's needed - except for folks who have already given up on the system like Samiudave and Jerry.

I'm not dissing their experience - I'm just saying it won't work. AT least not yet...the rot will have to penetrate the good wood a lot further before that happens - if ever.

I'd sooner, in the short and medium term, have a chance at forming government than I like to hava a chance to win a loving cup for socialist purity.

Appeal from Barrett

Did you get the appeal from Dave Barrett for donations?

"We could face an election early in the new year, and we'll only win if we raise enough money to fight like hell."

Yours Sincerely,
Dave Barrett

Nope. Nothing from Barrett - or anyone else for that matter

Strange.

Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if all this kerfuffle about an early election isn't a little silly.

Why would the Liberals throw away two years of a four-year mandate?

It doesn't make any sense to me - the only way the new leader can get some traction for the Liberals is to govern for those two years.

After which they can claim to be 'different' from Campbell.

Seems to me the prognosticators who say there will be an early election may very well be very wrong.

I mean really, why do it?

oh the ironies...

I, too, am a socialist, bob the cat. With respect, I think you missed another point with regard to the coup, which is that anyone who believes that politics 'has' to be brutal has been listening to Mr. Campbell for too long. Brutality, whether in politics or elsewhere, is always to be abhorred. There is such a thing as integrity: removing a leader by any means other than democratic simply plays into the dark forces.

I largely agree with G West, although I am not sure whether a broad appeal is neccessary so much as an ability to keep all of the diverse players in the game, and I believe this is important not simply for reasons of winning votes, but because it mirrors real life. We all have to work with people that we do not see eye-to-eye with, but more importantly, a diversity of views is always a strength. There is far too much history, as the article points out, of division between people who appear to have lost sight of the larger goal.

But then, we haven't even figured out what that larger goal is, perhaps...

Coup that disregarded the NDP constitution. . .

The revolt against James was a powerplay by party operatives and a minority of caucus, an undemocratic coup that disregarded the party's constitution, actions so injurious to an egalitarian organization that full recovery will take time.

How can the next leader or the membership feel comfortable when consent to a common set of rules does not exist? Never did NDP members contemplate a small caucus group selecting or rejecting the elected leader and publicly slamming the Executive and Provincial Council.

There is no uncertainty about that issue.

Just as Stephen Harper was accused of...

...pretending to be a moderate centrist just to get elected but was/is really right-wing extremist with a "Hidden Agenda". So too are our friends here suggesting hiding the 'real' agenda because it just will not sell.

Repackage, re-brand and learn from Stephen and Tony Blair. Put the socialist manifesto in the back drawer for a while, keep your fingers crossed and behind your back, wink to your left wing buddies and reassure them that you are really, "...also pretty radical and more than ready to push the boundaries whenever possible...", say niceties to business if that's what they want to hear and, hopefully, get 'Power'.

"Winning an election trumps ideology."

"...there's no practical alternative for a party that wants to form government except to try and appeal to the broadest spectrum of possible supporters in each election... I'd sooner, in the short and medium term, have a chance at forming government than I like to hava (sic) a chance to win a loving cup for socialist purity."

Whatever it takes.

Realisticman, how about

no pretending. Let the radical left gather with those who share their ideas. Let the moderate centrists gather together in their group and the righties in theirs.

The centrists have trouble with both radical right and left wanting to gain their agendas by pretending to be something else. That is the root of voter dissatisfaction. The present system as it operates is based on hypocrisy because, as Campbell demonstrated, he said one thing and did another. he didn't sell his right wing agenda to voters, he sold something else, then acted for the benefit of the one percenters.

Maybe, the NDP comes out of this divided but with the centrist group stronger. As it is now, a divided party opens the road to the right wing phonies supporting Falcon or Clark.

http://northerninsights.blogspot.com/2010/12/liberals-gain-more-than-ndp-from.html

r'man

Agreed, it worked for the Right and it'll work for the Left.

Harper doesn't go around quoting Hayek on the campaign trail. He wears sweaters, sings "Share the Land" and talks about economic stimulus.

He decided being the spokesperson for the National Citizen's Coalition was not going to mean change, at some point he realized its all about getting elected.

Carole James will be quickly forgotten

Sad perhaps, but almost certainly true, that Carole James is already slipping into the past, and none too soon if you have any hopes for the NDP.

Where is the sadness at her leaving? Only in a few NDP supporters who probably liked her personally. In the general public I see little reaction except indifference. If there is any outrage, its about the process it took to get her out. And that was basically why she had to go, and should have gone after the last election. She had 7 years to make a public impact, become a real alternative to the Liberals and she couldn't do it. Not because she wasn't a good person, and maybe even potentially a very good premier, but because she couldn't get that idea across to enough people. Even with the Liberals in a mess, her personal ratings remained low.

In politics that's a losing hand. The future is impossible to predict, but at least to my eyes, it looks a bit brighter now.

If the future is impossible to predict...

Then the whole raison d'être for getting rid of her as the leader is dishonest and absurd.

Wise words

Very interesting perspective. Thanks for writing this.

"Seems to me the

"Seems to me the prognosticators who say there will be an early election may very well be very wrong.

I mean really, why do it?"

I think anyone making an outright prediction may well be wrong. The Libs will call an early election for one reason and one reason only - they think they can win.
I can't say if the polls will encourage or discourage them once the smoke clears. One thing you and I largely agree on, G West, is Christy Clark - I believe she has come into the scene like a frag grenade rolling into a room, and noone knows where all the flak will go - least of all Christy.

If, at any time in the few months after Feb 26, the Libs seem to have a secure chance at an election win ie a decent (or indecent in my eyes) lead in all the polls, I would say it is better than 50/50 they will go, figuring a shot at 4 years beats a sure two. In a deteriorating economic and social climate the hawks in their party will be pushing to strike while the iron is hot rather than risk falling back into Campbell territory as the public realizes they are the same gang as before.

So - I am not predicting an election, but cautioning it is a possibility we must be ready for. It is a "Pascal's Square" situation like taking your umbrella in case it rains rather than assuming it won't.

What we can all do to ensure an early election doesn't happen is to contribute whatever way we can to a positive alternative.

rantnik

Zalm made some well written points, about how he believes "Direct democracy" could "not" work.

He seems to have the idea that the "representatives" presently affiliated with "parties", must have more knowledge and more understanding of the issues than an "independent".

Perhaps when you explain to me how an independent is able to make use of the power of the party to pay for research and talking papers on policy points that he or she knows nothing about, I will agree.

After 23 years in health care, I'm not nearly an expert in the institutional side of it, although I'm a helluva lot more knowledgeable than our last heath minister, who has mercifully decided that leading our province is better suited to his many relevant and lauded talents in real estate development.

For me, on nearly every other subject - BC Rail, IPPs, social services, aboriginal affairs, finance, and more - I'm one sort of ignoramus or another, ranging from "moronic" to "bottomless". That despite devoting the hour or two a day (on average) to reading well-chosen words on all these subjects and more. I defy 85 tried and true British Columbians to do better, in a province where drinking our own bathwater is the preferred pastime.

"When we have a coalition government, we are closest to having a true "direct democracy".

Spoken like a true aficionado of the 'party system'.

Voting

Somebody once said " The trouble with voting...the government always gets in"

another: " I don`t vote..it just encourages `em"

But I`m going to vote..NDP...hell I sent Dave Barrett a hundred bucks the other night...yikes..still scratching my head over that one. I hope it wasn`t a scam thing.
btc