Only business could afford those tickets.

Even most labour unions couldn't afford dinner for $300 a pop. So the BCNDP should have shut their doors to business' that wanted to be entertained by Carol. I don't think so. The BCNDP make $ from BC business' the other night.

All you armchair politicians now think the BCNDP is in the pockets of big business because they bought one lousy meal from the socialists.

Bill, clearly you were looking for a cheap story and you got one.
But, who cares.

I rue the day my partner

voted at the NDP Convention to make James the leader. We still have the little yellow scarf hanging around.

The reason I was upset? Because she cut unions loose. She let the delegates know, IMHO, that she wasn't interested in the working men and women of this province. She wasn't going to be beholden to them.

And wouldn't you know it.....shortly thereafter my employer at the time brought in scabs to break the union. A large employer. They wanted to ship most jobs out of BC. They did it too. And not a peep out of Carole; because it would look like she was standing up for unionized workers.

Here's the thing: I will not donate a penny to the party as long as "that woman" is the leader.

Remember this story, Bill, the next time your email goes down. And you're talking to Manila trying to get it fixed.

Why is the NDP losing members?

Alienation:

http://politicsrespun.org/2010/07/building-community-as-a-tonic-for-political-cyncism/

Bill was a strategist for

Bill was a strategist for Gregor Robertson and Vision last election. They ran on the same approach as James is now and gained a whopping majority on Council.

But that approach is wrong for James? Let's see, they're at the highest polling numbers in two decades, paying down debt while the Liberals are building it up and most importantly relevant like no other time since Harcourt.

And let's talk about James' record in that. From two seats and talk of the need for a new party to 36 and odds on favourite to win next time. That took 7 years, a little less than Gary Doer in the same situation in Manitoba.

Oh, but she's weak and has lousy strategy? And class war is better?

I think all you guys just don't like a woman leader. You talk it, but don't walk it.

Carole James is incompetant................

............and as such, makes a wonderful leader for the NDP. Her removal as leader, would show a degree of competence within the party, which scares the hell out of Liberal strategists.

predictable writing

I have never voted NDP or Liberal. There has to be another way to look at politics in this province if we are ever going to join the 21st century.

Interesting to observe that ALL of the political pundits in BC, both on left and right, continue to promote the 145 yr old system that simply does not work for the people of this province and country.

It is sad but predictable to read the way that Tieleman continues to reveal he remains locked in yesterday; trying to get common folks to remain in this polarized system that makes fools out of all of us; both on the left side and the right side.

But it does work for them. With Shreck, Tieleman, and others on the left, Spector and others on the right, the promotion of this old biased system feeds their consulting fees for every election held in this province. So this story is about nothing more than Tieleman promoting his own paycheque.

I saw mentioned yesterday that Monte Paulson has been considered a Liberal mole; planted into the left side as some sort of subterfuge.
Any thoughts on Carole being the same thing, and serving it up to the Liberals on a platter?? After all, if you read and believe this story, is this not what is implied inside?

This is simply promoting more of the same old home cooking. Nothing new, no new ideas, this old FPTP is bankrupt on both sides of the equation.

Devil's Advocate

James is just taking a page out of Harcourt's playbook, which is now orchestrated by party prez Moe Sihota.

The key question that should be asked, after all of the Liberal foibles, is why the NDP is still polling at their May, 2009 election level of 42% or slightly higher at 48%?

If one looks back at the 1990's, the political scene was as follows:

Spring, 1994 (just 2 1/2 years after Harcourt became premier) Mustel voter intentions:

Liberal – 53%
Reform – 25%
NDP – 19%

That’s 3rd place for the NDP with a 34% spread in favour of the Liberals.

Again Mustel in early, 2001:

Liberal – 72%
NDP – 18%
Green – 7%

With the shoe now on the other foot, why can't the BC NDP achieve these glorifying heights of public opinion? Why can't the BC NDP break through the 50% barrier, let alone reach 72% in voter approval?

It's because Carole James approval numbers are well below her party's, the NDP is not seen as a government in waiting, and even a majority of NDP supporters want her gone according to an ARS poll from last fall. Her Lady Gaga/John Wayne comparison continues to re-inforce that perception.

Furthermore, unlike the Saskatchewan or Manitoba New Democrats, who act like New Labour Tony Blairites and are really 'orange' Liberals in disguise, the BC NDP is a coalition of too many vested special interest groups that can fracture the party internally when opportunity arises.

And finally, why oppose big business funding the BC NDP, Bill? As previously stated, you're a strategist for Vision Vancouver and Vision Vancouver is mostly funded by Vancouver's big business/development community. That's certainly a stark contrast from your current position viv-a-vis the BC NDP.

The NDP as the US Democratic Party North...

Regrettably, I have to head into town today, before we get locked in here for the winter. (I hate driving the highways in winter.)

In any case, suffice it me to quickly say, and maybe more later to wards evening, that I agree with many of the other NDP critics here. (And that Bill T. has come around to being one of these critics, is much pleasing to me and indicative that the NDP, especially under Carole's leadership, is either headed for electoral failure, or at least failure of any real content that connects with the working mass and principled intellectual citizenry of this province.)

As in the case of trade unions, the same goes for the NDP; there must either occur a movement within them to radically alter course here, and change the faces and content of their leadership, or leave their members and the rest of the working class no other course but to find a way around their sell-out obstructionism. Which ain't gonna be easy either, I appreciate.

The NDP has effectively and objectively, in my view, aligned itself with the forces of Amerikanization in this country. It is desperately trying to win the position ahead of the Liberals as our US style Democratic Party North and to work with and be accepted by the global business/corporatist forces that wrecked the BC economy and distorted its development, at the same time as selling off our resources and destroying the natural environment. They want either to win this position for themselves, or in some future realignment of ruling class dominant politics in this country, to be accepted into and become a part of the Liberal Party. This is clear from recent closeted inter-party talks between the two, and the entire line of development history, step by step, since its throwing over of its old Co-operative Commonwealth content and name.

This needs to change and/or "the masses" need to find a whole new way of organizing themselves, and outflanking the entire power structure of the status quo system. Meanwhile, it could get downright nasty and ugly.

Dinners at $300 a pop?

Ok, good for her. Now, why doesn't she have one for us, at say, $50 a pop with the usual silent auctions, etc. I'm sure she will sell it out big time and more likely have to rent the Colliseum. I bet she'll raise more money than the big business one. Once it's over donate the rest of the food to the homeless!

I believe for the NDP to win the next election they have to be more in touch with the people that vote for them. This will do it.

The Socios cannot be satisfied

No matter how far to the right a social democratic party goes, it will never satisfy the sociopaths who control the economy. This is the mistake of the Blairites. Furthermore, this tendency to become a light version of the right is dangerous for democracy. Politics becomes totalitarian with only two varieties of the same flavour offered and cynicism is engendered as masses of people cannot find an party or politicians to identify with.

"I believe for the NDP to

"I believe for the NDP to win the next election they have to be more in touch with the people that vote for them. This will do it"

I agree wholeheartedly! Carol is a nice lady, very smart and moderately presentable, but her head is in the clouds. As bad as Campbell is, he still has the support of the business community, and no matter what Carol does, that will not change. Carol would make a great minister of education, or health or any social services, but until the NDP gets back to its roots, be they socialist, communist, utopian or whatever you want to call them, they will not get the support of the majority of British Columbians.

I believe that people are more important than the almighty dollar. The Chairman of the BC Business council believes exactly the opposite. That is the plain and simple basic reason why we are on opposite sides of the political fence. Until Carol realizes that there are more of me than there are of him, she, And the NDP are in serious trouble.

Social democratic parties

Social democratic parties have sold out to big business all over the world.

Then again, what "business" are we talking about?

The real locally based and owned businesses, serving local economies by and for local people, or the multinational corporate mafia, robbing the world blind ? The two sectors can not be compared, or even mentioned on the same page.

As a small business owner in BC since 1957, I have seen a very large number of businesses ruined by the multinationals, collectivized in Soviet fashion. The destruction of the family farm is the best example. Not with bayonets, but witrh the control of the markets, price fixings and the perceived power of imaginary money, the main purpose of bank deregulation, introduced by pimp governments for global, corporate dictatorship.

The BCLib/Reform/CRAPP party is in no trouble at all. This is all a planned move to come back with a new leader next year, who will push a new, very popular platform and after winning the next elections, sell off the whole of BC on Fraser Inst. plans.

Anybody who thinks that the owners of the neocon/neolib parties will let the opportunity for total control slip out of their hands is dreaming. They're not amateurs who'd permit democracy to rule, but professional crooks, one step from world domination and they'll do anything to reach it.

The best proof of their plans is the invitation of Campbell to the last, top secret, Bilderbereger gathering to give him his orders. If he'd be in any kind of trouble, they wouldn't give him the time of day.

This is all part of a big masterplan my friends, and don't forget it.

Now let's hear the usual propaganda buzz of "conspiracy theorist" from the faithful suckers..............

Ed Deak.

not making waves

I don't hear Her saying in a loud voice gordo is killing our province, Many people who would like to work + are now disabled be cause injury or illness have died or killed themselves or are homeless because of gordo. Where is carole sick, injured or old age doesn't stop people from the need to be defended from the tyrant. Get out of the way and let someone else do the job or ther will be a new party to do the job.

You are right Bill.

Any support, if it ever came from the business sector, would be fickle and they would turn on the NDP just as soon as an NDP government made any changes to the legislation previously introduced by their friends the liberals. If you let business control the agenda they will stay on your side for a short time. They will always go back to their cohorts who give them all the public assets and resources for peanuts. The NDP can never satiate the corporate greed that marks their ranks.

Harcourt had the business sectors tolerance for a very short time. They turned on him before he was out of the premiers office because he tried to balance the labor code and raised the minimum wage.

The issue really is, which of the NDP caucus will "bell the cat" . They appear to be such a collection of useless seat warmers at present. You want to know why the NDP membership is down Carole? Look in the mirror.

Face Up To It...

"Social democratic parties have sold out to big business all over the world." Ed Deak.

Bang on, Ed. It needs to be said, and the appropriate conclusions drawn by the Left and Progressives.

Something needs to occur here soon within the NDP, or it needs to be outflanked and bypassed.

Loyalty to Business and the failure to win a clear "programme mandate" from the citizenry is why all parties to capitalism wind up vulnerable to its demands once in "power" (which is really a joke.) And this has included none more than the NDP with its "sneaking into power" view of politics.

There is a need to fight the big fight with this "Business centric" view of the world in fact, and to win a mandate from the citizenry, and their street and other forms of participation in getting control of Big Business first, and then boldly, as the Right does on the Business behalf, preparing the way for democratizing the commanding heights of the economy (starting with the big "foreign" controlled corporate sector.)

Timidity in leadership is the enemy of the people's interest, in that it leaves the way open for Big Capital and its winger minions to boldly intimidate and take charge. It needs to be challenged, not stroked.

The economy is the real centre of power in capitalist societies everywhere. Those who control the economy, control the politics AND the politicians. Face up to it. Steel yourselves to challenge it.

Now, I'm really out of here. 8-)

This Guy says he's Done the Math

...and he likes the cash.

" ...Over my lifetime I have voted for the federal Liberals, the federal PC party, the Socreds, the B.C. Liberals, the Ontario NDP, the Ontario Tories, the Rhinoceros party and, once or twice, “none of the above.” ..."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/your-business/start/tony-wilson/dear-readers-ive-done-the-math-and-hst-wins/article1729764/

The unforunate thing about our political system in BC

Is that there are no good choices. I will never vote for the Liberals in this province because of their lies and double talk. Who is worthy of our vote? I like the NDP, but Carole is not my choice.
No wonder there is such apathy in this province.

The problem is not

The problem is not necessarily the lack of choices, but that, when a party is elected too government, on the basis of a long string of wonderful promises, they can become unaccountable dictatorships for their term, and the public can not do a damn thing about it, or kick them out.

The same goes federally, with Harper's Reform Party itching to become a majority, so they can sell the whole country. As they are already doing it with a string of "free trade" deals, permitting the control of our economy down to the municipal levels, and the destruction of millions of people so that the corporate mafia can rob them dry.

In the name of "competitive efficiency", or course.

Ed Deak.

On the Other Hand

Sounds to me like the 'left' will do in the chances of the NDP a lot sooner than the Liberals. What is distressing is that at the time the NDP are within stiking distance of a victory, the knives come out. (Who really is behind this?) Here's a leader who managed to dig the party out of a hole most thought they could never get out of. And while like all leaders, she has her deficit, she needs to be supported by everyone who wants the Libs out. Does anybody really believe that changing the NDP leader now would make it more likely that the party would win the next election? Please. As Mulrony once said, "Ya gotta dance with the one what brung ya." Dumping her at this point would be the stupidest thing the NDP could do right now.

The idea of her talking to business is a good thing strategically. First, although she won't get their votes or support, she can mediate her image with them. Without the moderate overtures she is making, it would be easier for her to be dismissed as a socialist boogieman. When elected, these overtures will help her to govern more effectively than if she only created enemies.

One last thing...anyone who thinks we should hold out for some kind of socialist nirvana isn't paying attention. This is not going to happen in our lifetime, so let's step back and figure out how to be progressive in this crazy-ass world, without the dogma and positionning that so often grinds the left into dust.

heres how the NDP, or anyone, would get my vote

By getting out of public sector bargaining entirely.

Establish a non partisan independant comission agreed upon by all stakeholders, which includes the private sector who pays the public sectors wages, and let that comission arbitrate the contracts. They would be binding on the unions and the government, no recourse for either. No strikes allowed, period. The public sector has a monopoly on their services so the normal way of bargaining a new contract as is done in the private sector doesn't apply to them. If a private company goes on strike you go to their competitor, thereby applying pressure on the struck company to settle. When the public unions walk, the citizens are held hostage, no competitor to turn to. Our way or no way is the message that sends to the 70% of us who aren't government workers. Mob rule.

I know this is too radical a change to ever see the light of day but I can dream. We'll just stay with the present disfunctional way of doing it, public unions will keep telling us how hard done by they are, even while those Defined Benefit pension plans keep getting topped up by all those awful "business" people.

@happy

- 'a non partisan independent commission agreed upon by all stakeholders?'

You're going to have to come up with something a lot more specific than that my friend. And, since your suggestion is apparently little more than an effort to give 'the private sector' a veto over the price tag in public sector bargaining how in the name of heaven are you going to persuade any workers to give up the only bargaining chip they have - the right to withdraw their services?

What you're asking for is plutocracy rule - which is, in a lot of people's eyes, a hell of a lot worse than mob rule. Without the right to strike there is no labour democracy and without labour democracy the cats with all the cash always win.

The problem is that the public sector (and it's going to be a growing sector as we continue to sell off productive enterprises and resources) is soon going to be the largest organized sector of workers in this economy.

Other than a lot of minimum wage sales clerks - who are the real victims in the current mess - I don't know exactly who you're so concerned about.

The problem, from my vantage point, is that too many union executives and pension fund managers are wearing the same hats these days - management hats - while guys like Moe Sihota pretend they can serve two masters.

Labour relations need two opposing points of view to work well and right now too many union people have poured too much water into their wine.

Tieleman is absolutely spot on – business will not support the NDP – and if it ever does, it won’t be the NDP any longer – it will have turned into just another bunch of pro-business lackeys. Moe Sihota needs to resign as president of the party – he’s doing far more harm than good – having been involved in development too long – he’s useless as a representative and spokesman for the left.

James Too Nice To Business

Look no further than OBAMA to the south every thing he does is to appease the Repuglicans (Corporations) and what does he get for it. Slumping numbers lost of control and a insane reasoning to do even more for them.

She is never were she should/needs to be, and that fault lays at the feet of her handlers. You know the smartest one's in the room!

Rob Fleming now.

And the liberals chime in

When the BC Liberals support the ultra left on a call for James to step down because she's got too much common sense you know there's something wrong with it.

Bill's supporter, cool hand, actually makes the case for Carole's approach. There's more of them than us. The last person in the NDP who took the centre also won the party's biggest majority - Mike Harcourt. And he didn't do it by campaigning against business.

West

The makeup of my fantasy commission is something to be determined, I'm just floating an idea. Suffice to say, no single stakeholder would have a "veto"
The commission would base contracts on what comparable workers recieve in non government work forces, the majority of all workers, no more, no less. Is that not good enough? Are government workers "special"?
Then you bring up labour democracy. Whats democratic about a monopoly I say.
You can't apply normal labour bargaining rules in the public sector, its apples and oranges. The public worker wants both the job security that comes with a monopoly and wants to be able to use the monopoly position to force negotiations without ANY RISK. Thats completely one sided and thats what I consider non democratic.
When my company goes on strike no one outside the company suffers. No one. Take your business across the street. When the public union walks everbody suffers and thats not right.

So the options are. A proven

So the options are. A proven liar, promise breaker, convicted drunk or Carole James. No wonder so many citizens simply don't bother to vote, or vote where they feel the big pricey adds tell them to vote and let's face it, King Gordo has guys with deep pockets on his side and they are not about to go with Carole James. Gordo has ran up massive provincial debt but his business guys , as long as they personally are not getting shafted will stick with him. My God, the idea of raising the minimum wage, balance the Labor code, or fix the medical system, is enough for them to start burning their hair. Time to take a long walk in the snow as Pierre T. did years ago and move off to somewhere else. If nothing else, take a good look at your inner circle of advisors

@happy

My first point was simply that it can't be impartial if it starts off from the premise that someone who's not a party to the negotiation is going to determine the price tag – Jeez! I thought you believed in the market!

As for your other point, if you're really interested in ending the us vs them mentality then YOU have to recognize that public service workers provide valuable services and we all have a stake in them.

Remember, if a private employer doesn't do the job properly his business will, I hope, suffer and fail...if we screw up with public service contracts and service delivery a lot more people will suffer - consumers of health services, students, higher education, old folks, the courts, the police, the roads and the infrastructure.

Maybe those folks, considering none of them have to earn a profit, deserve a lot more consideration than some idiot welding chinks of pipe together so his boss can holiday in Maui.

If you can find a way to make a decent proposal that'll provide a 'real' alternative to collective bargaining and the right to strike I'll listen carefully – so far, I’m just hearing noise.

Cheers, as always.

And, DPL and some others make valid points

James is trying as best she can, to find a way to generate the necessary support to get elected in a province where the most voters - and every last person in the power elite - are right wing thugs.

She's hoping there are enough persuadable people on the fringes to win a few more ridings in the next election.

I'm inclined to think it'll work in the short term and she may even win the next election, BUT, if she pays much heed to Ken Georgetti and Moe Sihota and their ilk, the government she leads will not make the kinds of changes the people of British Columbia really need during the short period she'll have in power.

Anyone who thinks politics in British Columbia is anything like politics in Saskatchewan and Manitoba doesn’t have a clue – these comparisons are useless.

This isn't the market though West

You have a choice in the market. There are no choices in the delivery of public services - and I'm not arguing for that - so they can't be compared, thats my whole point.
OK then, no more noise from me, that was my only shot. I know one thing, and that the present way isn't working, Us against Them, just like you say.
So why would you want to sustain the status quo?

Welders provide a valuble service too you know. Hospitals and schools are full of welded pipes. And ferries.

@ Marshall

You said "Here's a leader who managed to dig the party out of a hole most thought they could never get out of." I don't know where you have been but "most" people knew that Gordon would do the digging, which he did. Her two attempts have failed and no party gives a leader two strikes unless they are in third-party status.

Some of us here have been saying she should go for a long time and party membership would seem to confirm that we are right. Almost every party supporter, not die hard members mind you, are saying that she doesn't instill confidence. Honest? Yes. More compassionate? Yes. A leader? No. These are the people who do not accept a party convention choice and stay loyal to it.

Then you ask, "Does anybody really believe that changing the NDP leader now would make it more likely that the party would win the next election?" I think a definite yes is the answer but hey I'm just one of the social democrats not constrained by party decisions orchestrated by the "inner circle".

The idea of her talking to business is a waste of time. She should concentrate on getting the message out to the people who will vote for her. Business will support the liberals no matter how corrupt and no matter how unpopular their leader is. She can stay true to the principles of social democracy without sounding like an arse kissing liberal light. She alienates her base by seeming to cozy up to the business sector. Anyone moronic enough to thinks she is a boogieman in this day and age won't give her overtures a second thought.

You last comment suggest that you are completely misguided if you think any comment here has been about creating a nirvana . That is the kind of stuff we can get from R/man or Cool hand who would not vote for the NDP if the leader walked on water. It is about making progress to a better world for more people. You know, the two steps forward and one step back kind of progress. So if it does not happen in our lifetime as with climate change solutions, you have to make some progress or what the hell is the point of an NDP government or Carole James. We can just take another drag.

I would suggest that Carole has provided no direction for her caucus on that last point. That is the tragedy of the past Campbell years of pain and suffering. If we continue without a compass the party will end up in the dustbin of history.

Last elections failure

A lot of talk about how James will do in the next election, but suppose NDP had a charasmatic leader all along, chances are they would be in power right now!
Try to argue that one.

Her main contribution (negative) has been to alienate candidates by insisting that a male candidate will not be replacing a female candidate ---no matter how she performed in the past.

Most members would prefer to see females enter politics, but James's solution stinks!

The very idea of brown-nosing to business is so stupid that one wonders what her agenda is?
Could it be she is a secret agent planted to keep the NDP split?

The Cross of Capitalism

"I know this is too radical a change to ever see the light of day but I can dream." Happy.

Nah. This ain't "too radical". It's just plain rightist and reactionary. It's the kind of thing Carole and Gang just might take to... Business friendly, as in bent over with drawers around one's ankles.

But what is particularly interesting here is this "notion" on the part of the rightist social democrats that it is all simply about getting elected. Hell, if it was all simply about "getting elected", we'd be nearer that Nirvana certainly than we are in this increasingly grim reality.

It's about actually changing society and the power relationships and dynamics of the class system, and curtailing, rolling over and democratizing Big Money control of the economy... such as they have wrecked, and are reducing to a basket case, and handed up to foreign "investor" interests in the name of being bootlick friendly to Business.

If it isn't about that, and it's just about serving the ruling class "investor" interest, why the shag would anyone waste their votes on you dudes and dudesses for? Eh? We might just as well vote Liberal or Socred... or sit on the sidelines and watch the mess you guys all make, as a best choice, awaiting a new opportunity.

You "sneak into power" freaks just don't get it. And it's why the times are turning against y'all here. Stop the bs. Beg the Liberals to just let you in, and do your "investor" friendly trip big time.

Follow Happy into the future. He's from "the other side", for all his protestations to the contrary, or really is dumb enough that he just doesn't know it. Which I don't believe. What I do believe is, he is simply trying to pied piper you over to where you really belong, and its becoming clearer. The Centre-Right... at best.

Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually understand that it's really about doing something, and making the effort to actually transform society... not just govern it for the ruling class interest while throwing sops to the working class, should continue to set ourselves up here. Somebody needs to pick up the pieces the social dem incompetents cast off from their old "progressive" shape shift, as they walk on their knees to their own new/old Bourgeois Nirvana pursuit. (Skywalker is right.)

Genuflect. Genuflect...before the electoral Cross of Capitalism, like it was really about something other than just opportunism. It's the Blairite Social Democratic style.

Choice???

What are you talking about?

There is only one public school system, one provider of public university education - the other ones are either market based or cater to a religious or class oriented ginger group and shouldn't have even a penny of public support. Free up $245 million from independent schools and there will be no serious problem with contract negotiations in schools.

There is no choice in the health care system - the government pays for the whole thing…and nobody with any depth of experience wants to turn that sucker back into a market driven madhouse. Both my grandparents died at home under that system because their families couldn’t afford the ‘private’ market based system in Canada at the time.

There is only one set of roads and bridges – paid for out of the public purse for the use of all citizens; one provider of healthy water, sewage services and electrical utilities...we all use these services and we all pay for them. The prejudice against workers in the public sector is deep and irrational – and most of the people who suffer from this form of short-sightedness wouldn’t want to live in the world the way it used to be..

Which is as it should be. I don't want the market to interfere. Welders do provide useful services – and so do nurses, teachers, doctors, police, the guys who work for the city and teach your kids at the university. Far from being the minority, public servants are everywhere – and we ought to respect them a lot more.

BC neds a new political party and a new police force

The Liberal/NDP slanging match has run its course.
The RCMP have proven themselves less than perfect.

Please give us a new political party and a provincial police force to keep everyone honest, including themselves. We need change.

Lucky...

BS unity is just that. Real Unity is not something that one can just declare or wish into existence out of the ether. It can onle REALLY exist around a programme and actions that create it, and a leadership and style that will actually fight for it.

False Unity is pointless, and serves nobodies good purpose... certainly not "the people's".

Why would anyone seriously elect the NDP to simply do what the Liberals have done? And many do, I know. For want of a real alternative.

Not this guy.

@happy

Ferries and welders?

German welders, eh?

Don't get me started.

BC Ferries used to provide a valuable public service at a reasonable cost - now they're little more than a failing profit centre for rightwing hacks.

I was on a couple of them on the weekend - they're now advertising 'spa' services for god's sake and they charge full price for a coffee refill.

Good Christ, what's next - SLOT MACHINES?

Time for a little more public service and a lot less David Hahn and Gordon Campbell.

Carole James ain’t perfect – but she will be better than this current crop of Campbell controlled bloodless zombies without even trying.

She Forgets the NDP's Traditional Business Support

she's wasting her time. Contrary to what the corporate media keeps raving about, the NDP has a very dedicated and established business constituency: most cooperatives and many credit unions, labour-sponsored and community-based ventures, employee-owned business, ecologically sustainable development and similar democratic-socialist type enterprise, as well as large numbers of progressive small cottage-industry businesses, innovative "green" venture types and self-employed professionals (like you & me Bill).

She should be focusing on building support and expanding the base among these types of businesses, which are clearly far more in line with NDP/CCF values and economics than any of the usual oppressive medieval corporate capitalist power cliques and their destructive economics and agendas.

The NDP was set up in part to try to free our economies and communities from these profiteering dictatorial elites by democratizing both our business and government models, much like the supportive businesses listed above.

That's what truly sets the NDP apart from anyone else. Carole James, if she's smart, should build on that legacy, not shy away from it by trying to endear herself to the very same power cliques and economics that have either kept or driven entire societies into poverty and slavery, war, dictatorship and persecution, crime, violence and ill health and illiteracy for the enrichment of a parasitic few.

In so doing she risks alienating the constituencies that have built the NDP into the major political movement it is while getting absolutely no support or respect from parasitic power cliques that exploit the public and would be just as happy to see NDPers jailed and murdered, like they have done in so many other countries.

Government Falls by Recall

Would be the best thing to happen in this province for a very long time. It is the reason many people signed that petition. So no, it wasn't just about the HST, it was a vote of non-confidence in the Liberal Party and Gordon Campbell (may he get lost in the Andes and eaten by an alligator; which is then devoured by an anaconda - so we can be at least hopeful that he will never return) And now this; Vander Zalm advises us that he likes to watch 'Survivor' so much that the only way he's going to relinquish his RIGHT WING CONTROL of the recall party and start the train moving is if we all buy blonde wigs and fake tits and profess to believe that the Return of el-VZ is just around the corner. How bogus!
Well, '...an individual who is a registered voter of the Member’s electoral district can apply to have a petition issued for the recall of a Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA).'
http://www.elections.bc.ca/index.php/referenda-recall-initiative/recall/faqs/
Meaning anyone registered to vote in their provincial riding. The MLA in my riding has flat out rejected the HST so there won't be a campaign here. But if I were in a riding represented by an MLA who did support the HST I would get behind anyone who stepped up and said, 'Screw Vander Zalm! We're going to have this recall now. Who's going to stop us?'
To which the answer would be Craig James (May his associates be so famous that every policeman knows them) now head of Elections BC, who has already annoyed everyone by trying to prevent the antiHST petition from being considered by Elections BC until after a right wing court case had delayed it long enough for the damage to be done to such a point that whoever was or came to be in power could semi-legitimately say, 'Oh, we took the the bribe money and the law is made - it would be too, too frightfully difficult to change things now. Oh dear, I'm late for the show at the Olde Vic!'
The point is that if Craig James were to deny an application for recall (and that is the last shot for many of them) it would play so poorly in the blogoshere that the liberals would be lucky to get half a dozen votes in the next election. Just appointing him to that post after his antics as the clerk of committees, and ordering him to fire the Deputy CEO Linda Johnson because she said no to the Liberal pro-HST mail-out pamphlet really smacks of facism.
If there were an election next spring, some would go further right, some would go green, and some would go NDP. Even a minority government would be preferable to what we have now. Especially with all the parties thinking of the next election. Meaning thinking of us; the voters, whether they like to or not. The message a recall would send to all the parties is that we don't like being lied to and played for fools.

We seem to have a disconnect here West

Thats what I said, there is no choice in the delivery of public services, nor am I saying there should be.

All I'm saying is you can't compare the public to private sectors, they are different animals and it is my opinion you can't (shouldn't) treat labour negotiations in the same way. Thats all. Don't worry, no ones about to implement anything I dream up, its never even come up for discussion.

And if there is a prejudice against public workers, then maybe ask yourself why. Could it b/c the public has just become bone weary of hearing endless claims of hardship from the unions when they themselves have none of the benefits the public workers do? And they are paying for it? Try to see the other side. Maybe the public workers could spare a minute to consider their neighbours too instead of just thenselves all the time. Works both ways.

Stuffs happening, gotta get busy here, have a good one.

Cheers

Oh just caught your last comment

No, not german welders, I was thinking of the good people at Allied shipyards that built the new boat last year for BCF

Bill A Thought....

Just a thought, this was a darn good piece of writing, is it a last chance for Carole James?, Clearly it is time for a change in direction for the NDP. This I think would shake up politics in BC in a big way. Carole is a nice lady and a professional. That is the key issue, she's too nice. Any oppostion party will tear a new one in a public debate or in any election. Carole hestiates too often. Also some clear concise platform debates might not only educate British Columbians but offer a real alternative choice or plan etc. If Carole runs in the next election the NDP will lose big time. Even the party brass I think suspect this to be quite realistic. It takes a big person to admit that it is time to move on, let Carole start by setting an example for Gordon Campbell.

The Reckoning

One can't decide whether it is sad or laughable when you watch the diehard "workers of the world unite", rank and file NDP diehards like Tieleman wheel out their tired old beliefs.

Of course the NDP will lose the next election- again. Their innate inability to adapt to the new labour and economic landscape is simply breathtaking. If you continue, as Tieleman advocates, to treat business as the enemy you will alienate many working men and women in BC. Where do you think most of your voters work- in govt or forestry unions? Voters just have to read articles from influential lefties like Tieleman to run for the hills.

Like any modern party, the NDP has to craft an economic and business platform and you can't do that without the input and a relationship with the business sector. Tieleman lives in the good old days of early 1980s BC solidarity, when unions had their last death rattle of power. Today's workers have changed; many are not unionized. The BC economy has changed. But, Tieleman doesn't care. Verily Tieleman believes that one day we shall all live in Marx's workers' paradise.

By resisting James' attempts to rationally balance the NDP's platform, Tieleman and other NDP insiders consign the party to not being a party, but a raucous political movement. The old NDP guard is tortured to even think it has to change into Blair's Labour party to take power.

The NDP is littered with dinosaurs who are hoping for the people to see their version of the truth rather than winning elections by showing voters they can responsibly govern the province rather than turn it into a mad social experiment run by social workers and union activists.

The voters already have a good example of what an NDP govt might look like- just look at Vision Vancouver. Mayor Robertson is a classic example of the dictatorship by the elite progressives. No one actually minds his political stripe, it is his incompetency and inability to understand the political process that is making Vancouver a laughing stock. No voter will believe the lefties are any more democratic than the Liberals. But at least the Liberals won't destroy the economy. Just think, many voters are burdened with big mortgages and can't afford the risk of losing their jobs if the NDP self-immolates with another Glen Clark, messiah, fire and brimstone, East Vancouver union thug as leader.

And like the poster above pointed out, why is Tieleman a Vision supporter given Vision's huge support from local property developers and at the same time a hater of BC business? Yes, there's no whore like an old whore, I guess.

Voters see through your hypocrisy so you had better urge your NDP elite to get behind James and create a business policy.

The CBPA

The CPBA - "The Community Business & Professionals Association" was an organization set up by Surrey New Democrat and women's clothier Leonard Friesen during the late 1970's.

Then NDP leader Dave Barrett attended events of the CBPA and proudly proclaimed that he listened to the business community. Carole James could always pull that stunt but according to their website "In recent years, membership of the CBPA has declined, as has our profile."

http://cbpac.ca/about.htm

But that's my whole point happy

There is no real alternative in a complex modern society that to have many, if not most of the vital and complex public services delivered in a non market, non competitive environment. But in fact, that's why your suggestion of giving the competitive, market driven sector a veto over the pay scales of the most important and vital workers in the society - the ones who keep the whole thing running and who do the thankless jobs of educating future citizens – none of it for profit.

Fact is, your market sector folks are busy cutting each other's throats (and conspiring to take more and more, often for less and less from the rest of us).Why should anyone look to them to make decisions about what's good for the rest of us. Fact is, if they can make a bigger profit somewhere else, or they can cash in and walk away – they will.

It won't and can't work - unless we create a new kind of organizational structure of real corporate and workplace democracy like they have in Germany and several other northern European countries.

BTW, there are members of the business community for whom the NDP has always had traction - especially in the service and cooperative sector - as steppenwolf points out accurately above.

If that’s who Carole James is courting - all power to her – but I think what’s going on is something else – something driven by guys like Moe Sihota and union pension fund time-servers and sell-outs.

Our system, as it is, only works when there is a balanced adversarial relationship and, nowadays, there are too many people trying to ride both sides of the fence. We either bring labour into the board room and give them some real power and responsibility (as they do in Europe) or we keep labour and management separate – no footsie and no side deals to enforce one party’s will on the other.

Don't Make Me Laugh...

"The NDP was set up in part to try to free our economies and communities from these profiteering dictatorial elites by democratizing both our business and government models, much like the supportive businesses listed above." Steppenwolf.

Good piece Steppenwolf. (There's no reason why Crown Corporations could not be "democratized" right now, and control of them given to their workers and the communities in which they operate, as opposed to their State ownership and bureaucratic direction.)

And Driftwood. Good piece.

Sounds to me, as an outsider but interested, like the NDP may be about to go through a little turmoil. Whether it be the right kind or not, with the right kind of result, from the perspective of beginning to get control of out of control corporate capitalism or not, and to seriously advance the cause of democracy, including economic democracy for the masses, time will only tell.

I am not optimistic, but neither have I written anything entirely off yet. 8-) Though I suspect the NDP leadership, much like the trade union leadership, is so far down the road of being compromised and bought off, that there is no turning back now. They would likely prefer to see the Party totally destroyed, and the union bosses, their trade unions, over them becoming serious organizations of the working class and/or the common citizenry.

Though it is too early to tell yet for certainty, like I say. Still, it MAY just be that both the broad working class and this nebulous and undefined electorate will have to find other means and create other organizations as the pathway to a more desirable, peaceful, egalitarian and sustainable future... certainly than any of these dudes have to offer. Which again, means more time in all likelihood.

Too bad.

But then, that's how the system works, isn't it? It just keeps buying more time with delay.

In any case, regardless of who gets the next election nod, nothing significant is going to change, and its going to be done over the absence of meaningful choice for at least as great a mass of the eligible electorate who say, effectively,"Screw it all." And like myself, simply walk to the sidelines, and in my case the "political wilderness" :-), to await new circumstance and opportunity.

Vote Liberal? Vote NDP? Vote Socred?

Don't make me freaking' laugh. They are all cut from the same cloth.

BC is still asleep politically

Calls for change, without a change in our thinking about the role of government, is only a shuffling of the deck chairs. We tend to vote for the promise of a better economy without a moment of thought about the society we construct along the way. We have the political analysis ass-backwards and we are unwilling, although probably more unable, to even recognize this obvious flaw.

Anecdotally, I wrote an email to Carol James on June 28, 2010 (she represents my riding), asking for five yes or no replies on a matter only she would know the answer. She acknowledged receipt of my mail, and then asked I jump a couple of systemic hoops. I did with two more emails going out. Three months later, I am still waiting for a reply.

Previously I wrote Bruce Ralston, NDP MLA and Opposition Critic for Finance; similarly, I am sill awaiting courteous acknowledgement of that letter.

My point is, the NDP party is in disarray at some fundamental level (it seems they really do like business more than people anymore). And yet it is a magnitude or two better than the Liberals if only because it will buy the population some time to get a clue.

But political evolution toward the peoples' interests is always slow, much like our cultural inability to get over the pagan and medieval theological stories which dominate our world. Maybe the truth is the vast majority would not know how to cope without someone/thing holding their hand, invariably paid for with their right to independent thought.

It is not hard to understand that as long as we humans gather together collectively and rely upon one another to live, we cannot make the individual paramount. But that is precisely what our economic-political system does. For example, the Campbell neo-con approach is to build upon our current horse and sparrow economic paradigm by feeding bigger and bigger meals to the very rich with promises a few extra scraps will hit the floor. It's just too bad we fell for the same old con.

Carole James' futile attempts to befriend big business

It's pretty much the same failed experience Obama's had with Republicans. He too took a long time to wake up to their mindless negativity.

trickster

In 2 weeks, I will have spent 5 years reading and sometimes commenting upon the writing, here, at the Tyee. In those 5 years, I have found no writer more provocative than the Coyote. Though he has shown us he can craft a metaphor as well as any William, it is often his plain language that gut shoots through PABlum and NDP naivete' to expose us to reeking truth.

Coyote's words like: "But then, that's how the system works, isn't it? It just keeps buying more time with delay." and "Vote Liberal? Vote NDP? Vote Socred? Don't make me freaking' laugh. They are all cut from the same cloth." undeniably define truth for us.

With the socio-economic engine that has been fired up, it doesn't matter who is running the freaken' train: the train is headed for derailment down the steep incline and over the cliff - doesn't matter if you drive it with full steam (BC Liberals) 2/3 steam (Socreds) or 1/3 steam (NDP) - we're all gonna hit the bottom. Unless everyone (you, me, the Indian, the Chinaman, the Brazillian and the poor fellow in Timbuktu) can get his or her narrow-minded head around the notion that we must work together for the good of everyone and every other living being, then we are in for a world of hurt.

The planet is diseased with our insanity, and we have but a generation or two to stop what we are doing. 20 to 40 years 'tis but the blink of an eye in the current universe. Yes, we are pretty insignificant in terms of the cosmos, but I like living, and I want my kids and grandkids to see some of the beauty I have seen.

Yep, the advertizers want us to believe that we are going to get what we need by buying Coke, Diet Coke, or Coke Zero. Truth is, they all make us sick; and though the packaging varies slightly in design, it is all sweetened carbonated water, delivered in the same toxic plastic. They are all Zeros.

Don’t blame James blame the NDP

Of course business can’t support Carole James, even if she is a nice person her party is anti business by being pro labour. Let’s face it if the NDP gets into power and there is a strike who are the NDP going to side with? Labour who bankrolls the party or business who will always be way down the NDP food chain compared to labour.
Unfortunately for the NDP until they shed the labour support many if not most of the voters in BC will be scared of the NDP getting elected because of the fact that business creates and pays for jobs. Labour unions don’t create jobs they only try to organize the jobs business has already created and provided. And forget about government jobs because they do not do much for the BC economy. BC needs jobs that create product that is paid for by the rest of the world resulting in their money coming into BC. Government jobs basically transfers money that is already in the province. Not an economy enhancer.
As well if business feels uncomfortable with the party in power it’s very easy for them to move or change focus to Alberta or points east which is exactly what happened when the NDP were in power in the 90’s. This in turn means bye bye jobs.
BC needs an alternative to the Liberals that is still business friendly (much like we have federally) rather than the public risk slitting their throats every time they want to spank the Liberals.
I don’t think that alternative is the NDP if they continue to be tied at the hip and shoulder with labour unions.

R-Man

The G&M article you refer to is just another in a long line of HST bs. And of course it originates from a business that is Liberal friendly.

Between 2005 and 2009 Boughton Law Group have donated $21,980 to the BC Liberal Party and not a dime to any other provincial party.

He is no different than all the other proponents I have either heard or read. He cherry picks certain facts to get to a point, but omits everything else that doesn't fit the conclusions he wishes to portray.

As a matter of fact, I think that many of the economists fail in their prognostications. I think that too many of them start with a conclusion and then search for data to prove it, while ignoring anything that may get in the way.

when all`s said and done...

decent people don`t like ass kissers or suck holes and carole james just can`t and never will garner the support of any majority of common working people who have enough pride to not even give their sworn enemy(what passes for a business community in bc) the time of day.

Future by Design

'Future by Design shares the life and far-reaching vision of Jacque Fresco, considered by many to be a modern day Da Vinci.'

This 90-minute documentary will offer some optimism to those looking at our uncivilized behaviour displayed in our institutions and in our behaviour.

Worth the time for the sofa-philosopher. ;)

Mad NDP World

Didn't the Liberals make nice with the govt unions and agree on wage hikes in a new agreement before the Olympics? I think the Liberals get along better with labour than the NDP does with business. I haven't seen the Liberal supporters vilify labour with the same dogmatic venom spewed by ardent NDP supporters.

Most of you anti-business radicals on this site simply don't care if business leave BC. Have any of you lived here in the terrible 90s under Glen Clark?

James is not "sucking up" or "brown nosing" to business. She is being realistic, she understands business is one of the most important parts of the BC economy. It creates jobs and a tax base that pays for all the social programmes.

Some of you are so sadly deluded that you think govt's main goal is housing the homeless or that the standar of living will simply improve if govt raises the minimum wage.

deluded, Bobby Peru...

is harbouring a worldview where business success is both the epicentre of a political strategy and the sole means of quantifying political success.

This doctrine is the preamble to the neocon political handbook; noteably, the Campbell-lead BC Liberal Party is a charter member of the neocon club of Canada.

I might add, belief in this dogma is as dangerously stupid as religion.

Let's Keep It Simple

Okay, let's drop the convoluted, class struggle dialectic out of this. No one except you diehard Marxists understand the babble. Plus, positioning every argument to transform the NDP in terms of left versus right always fails to yield creative solutions and impress the voters.

Answer this question: what does the NDP have to offer the working man and woman in BC? How will the NDP improve their standard of living?

Cranky, yes

"The final benefit of HST over PST is that we’ll become an even better jurisdiction than the United States to do business in. The United States remains the last country among all the OECD member nations to impose sales-and-use taxes (PST) as opposed to a value-added tax (HST).

HST gives British Columbia, Ontario and other HST jurisdictions in Canada a significant competitive advantage over the United States. If you’re a foreign company looking to do business in North America, with HST, British Columbia and Ontario suddenly become very attractive alternatives to Washington State, California, New York, or anywhere else in the lower 48 where business has to swallow the state and local sales tax and not get anything back for it.

Attracting foreign investment to British Columbia not only brings high-quality, well-paying jobs to the province, but for the provincial government, it generates tax revenues that help pay for education and health care and all the things everyone expects government to do.

As I promised, those are the facts. "

So, you prefer the US styled old system. Save yourself the grief, and your job. Face reality.

The hell it does?

"it generates tax revenues that help pay for education and health care and all the things everyone expects government to do." I guess that is why every fee has been raised since 2002 and we have carbon taxes and the HST. It is hardly the investor that is providing the tax revenue, it is the same bloody taxed consumer. The foreign investor is getting all the breaks. So Bobby how will the liberals improve the standard of living for anybody except their corporate friends. Deluded is right.

Yeah I remember the 90's. Folks in my region are longing for the good old days of the 90's.

Sharpening Our Understanding/Thinking....

"Calls for change, without a change in our thinking about the role of government, is only a shuffling of the deck chairs. We tend to vote for the promise of a better economy without a moment of thought about the society we construct along the way. We have the political analysis ass-backward and we are unwilling, although probably more unable, to even recognize this obvious flaw." samuidave.

Much good analysis and writing here from such as samuidave and SharingIsGood (Thank you for the kind words, brother.) It demonstrates to me that there is a clear enough understanding of where we are, taking shape out there, on the part of many and a growing body of folks. (Though I'm also sure that many of us are not young anymore as well, and are carrying our many experiences with other struggles, updating and upgrading our analysis still, to a changed time and circumstances. :-)

But sometimes, it is the briefest comments that are no less impressive, from such as insidebc, Circle A, and of course crankypants on his inimitable game. Good writing all.

I think we are successfully all, beginning to get at first, exposing the arguments of the "corporate business friendly" right in BOTH the NDP and the Liberals, and assisting folks in coming to understand that both are fundamentally coming from the same economic and political place. And consequently, neither will fundamentally resolve the increasingly serious economic and political problems of the nation, the working class, or the class contradictions within what passes for "democracy" itself.

The NDP in particular, is coming to an important cross-roads... if it is not already there... which I actually think it is. Depending on what happens here, which road they ultimately take, over the next very brief period will seal their fate one way or another. They will return to the "common citizen class" roots of their founding history in the old Co-operative Commonwealth or they will go the way of every other "investor-business friendly" Party to capitalism, eventually being absorbed entirely into that stream.

But more than this even, it will determine the character of the struggle for the interests of the mass of the citizenry for the foreseeable future... to build alternate mass organizations of influence at the street, workplace and political levels. Which from here appears daunting, for sure... but are certainly doable IF and WHEN there really is a significant change in the public mood and appetite for engagement. (Which was much damaged, and remains so I suspect, as a consequence of the betrayal of Operation Solidarity at the start of this historical period we are now well into.)

We need to keep our little grey cells active and up to date here. :-)

Peace and Solidarity

Not so wisemonkey

said:

Quote:

"As well if business feels uncomfortable with the party in power it’s very easy for them to move or change focus to Alberta or points east which is exactly what happened when the NDP were in power in the 90’s. This in turn means bye bye jobs."

Really? You're still sticking with that tired old meme? Maybe we should do a little comparison Hmmm?

From Kim Pollack-April 2010
(for the Tyee):

Quote:

"The disappointing results of the (Campbell) tax-cut strategy can be seen in both the tepid growth of output and the slow pace of job creation. The Liberal record in these departments actually trails that of the previous government. While the New Democrats were in office between 1991 and 2001, manufacturing output grew by 88 per cent. Excluding the forest sector, growth was 106 per cent during that decade. Since then, manufacturing growth fell to just one per cent, while non-forest sector manufacturing saw growth of just 30 per cent.

Job creation doesn't seem to have benefited much from all those tax cuts, either. Total employment across the B.C. economy grew by 2.8 per cent per year from 2001 to 2008, says BC Statistics. That's slightly higher than the 2.4 per cent annual average under the NDP. But with the loss of over 150,000 jobs in 2009, that average is now down to 2.1 per cent per year.

In manufacturing, the record under the Liberals' low-corporate-tax regime is even worse. While manufacturing employment grew by 1.6 per cent per year under the NDP, it fell by 0.5 per cent per year from 2001 to 2008. And with the loss of nearly 25,000 manufacturing jobs in 2009, the province has now bled an average of 1.9 per cent of its manufacturing jobs each year Gordon Campbell"

I suggest you read the rest of this article which can be found here:

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/04/21/FailedTaxCuts/

and then stop spreading the falsehood of the so called "Dismal Decade" of the NDP.
Seriously, I'm getting a little tired of constantly having to correct people on this matter.

@skywalker

NB...your interlocutor is back at it again - scooping quotes from someone (note the quotation marks) but not bothering to attribute the words.

This isn't simply plagiarism, it's deceptive and bordering on fraud as well.

As for the point about VAT being an equitable form of taxation - you're correct that it doesn't hold water.

The countries where VAT is a logical part of a rational tax system have extremely high rates of marginal tax, much better social safety nets and a much lower threshold at which high income taxes kick in.

Here, we're dishonestly rolling back income tax rates on higher income earners, cutting back on services and INCREASING the taxes all consumers pay to make up for the freer ride the wealthy have been getting.

Taxation should be based upon ability to pay and include as income all forms of income – no matter how it’s earned – all taxed on the same basis.

Stephanie T

"Seriously, I'm getting a little tired of constantly having to correct people on this matter."

You're right but you have to admit its funny seeing people post the same nonsense over and over again because its their only argument is it not?

Cool Hand, realisticman and Bobby Peru support the policies that led to the collapse in the financial sector. Nuff said.

@Stephanie T

Well put...the currency of the Campbell lie is old, worn out and - considering the last 10 years - easily refutable.

There will, of course always be a few old soldiers who hew to the party line...In 1972, I'm told, NDP canvassers in the election that forced Wacky Bennett into retirement happily worn buttons with the praise 'I'm a part of the socialist hordes'.

It's long past time we all quit hiding and apologizing every time somebody mentions the 1990s.

Epilogue

So why did you point to something irrelevant written by a researcher at the Steelworker's?

As a matter of fact, during the 1990's:

1. BC was virtually last on the economic ladder on every leading economic indicator, compared to other Canadian provinces;

2. 469 mid-sized businesses moved from BC to either WA or AB;

3. That 1990's 'hangover' resulted in BC becoming a 'have-not' province by late 2000;

Nothing to be proud of. The truth may hurt, but dems da facts.

And what region might that be? I suspect either Vancouver-Mount Pleasant or neighbouring Vancouver Hastings as they were the only two NDP seats to survive the 77-2 juggernaut in 2001.

Sheesh, I get the impression that many posters around here are social workers. :D

That's reality?

It's the same tactic used by people who initially put out all these spam chain letters. You know the ones attacking the U.S. President or another democrat making all kinds of strange claim and always accompanied with something about how afraid we should be or how chilling something is to the sender.

After you do a little checking it turns out to be all lies and the people who manufacture this stuff have an agenda. They have learned the Big Lie tactic - say it often and loud enough and some people will think it is fact. Just because a few people believe it, does not make it reality. Right UnR/man and Bobby?

Luke

I don't think you understand what a "have not" province is and why almost all provinces are labelled as such.

I'll happily compare BC's economic stats in the 1990's with Campbell's stats anytime.

Under Campbell economic growth is lower than when he took over from the NDP, the median wage has fallen and the burden of taxation on people making less than that wage has increased.

Meanwhile our debt has skyrocketed, making the NDP's debt look miniscule. Who set the record for biggest deficit? Campbell.

Not much to be proud of if you're a Liberal, unless of course those of us on the Tyee were right and all of that were Liberal goals. In which case there's lots to be proud of.

Frank

Aha! Federal equalization payments by the feds assist the 'less prosperous' provincial governments. Ya know, BC, AB et al paying more into the feds bank account than comes back to same in order to subsidize other provinces? It's something akin to welfare.

And the lead up time to qualify as a 'have not' province is several years. Same lead up time to get outta same.

Fer example, the top two recipients in 2010:

QC - $8.552 billion in fed assistance;
MB - $1.826 billion in fed assistance;

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

If either Quebec or Manitoba did not receive that generous assistance (partially coming out of BC taxpayer pockets), they would be muc further in the tank.

Frankly, it was an embarrassing shame that the 1990's BC NDP put BC into that same position for a while. Have some pride man. ;)

Luke

See, you don't. The only province that consistently remains in the "have" province category is Alberta.

Liberal-run Quebec and Ontario and BC have all been in the "have-not" category now and then.

If Alberta gets even richer you'll see 9 "have not" provinces because its based on an average and when you have a province like Alberta in the mix it skews the results.

If Alberta's tar sands were shut down there's a good chance more provinces, such as Sask and Newfoundland and perhaps even Quebec, would suddenly be considered "have" provinces.

Equalization is an averaging, it doesn't mean one economy is badly run and another is well run.

Luke

From your own link

How Equalization Works

* Equalization entitlements are determined by measuring provinces’ ability to raise revenues – known as "fiscal capacity".
* Before any adjustments, a province’s per capita Equalization entitlement is equal to the amount by which its fiscal capacity is below the average fiscal capacity of all provinces – known as the "10 province standard".
* Provinces get the greater of the amount they would receive by fully excluding natural resource revenues, or by excluding 50% of natural resource revenues.
* Equalization is adjusted to ensure fairness among provinces while ensuring that receiving provinces can get a net fiscal benefit from their resources equivalent to half the per capita resource revenues of the receiving provinces.
* Equalization is also adjusted to ensure that the total program payout grows in line with the economy. The growth path is based on a three-year moving average of gross domestic product (GDP) growth. This helps to ensure stability and predictability while still being responsive to economic growth and ensuring that provinces are protected against reductions in overall Equalization.
* The program also ensures that Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador maintain the benefits of the Atlantic Accords. In 2007, the two provinces were given the choice to continue to operate under the previous Equalization system or to permanently opt into the new program at any point prior to the expiry of the offshore accords. Having chosen the new program, Nova Scotia benefits from a guarantee that it will do at least as well, on a cumulative basis, as it would have under the formula agreed to at the time the Accord was signed. Newfoundland and Labrador remains under the previous system and will benefit from the same guarantee once it chooses to opt in to the new system.

BC, AB, and ON have always

BC, AB, and ON have always been Canada's wealthiest provinces and are wealthy enough not to require equalization. In fact, ON has never been classified as a 'have not' province, with the exception of the 2009/2010 fiscal year. Obviously, that recession stung ON big time.

In the early days, AB was a "have-not" province and the last time that BC qualified was during the 1961/1962 fiscal year.

BC, AB, and ON will continue to remain Canada's wealthiest provinces and if they ever slide into 'have-not' territory, it's time to look at the provincial administrations themselves. Perhaps it's also time for ON to have a PC gov't (today's ARS poll certainly bears that out.)

In that vein, wealthy provinces typically also elect centre-right guvmints. (Eg. Germany's wealthiest states, Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, have consistently elected centre-right CSU/CDU guvmints post WW-2)

Frank

"Cool Hand, realisticman and Bobby Peru support the policies that led to the collapse in the financial sector. Nuff said."

Sure, I've always been saying that big fat mortgages should be given to anyone that can fog a mirror, no matter if they have any income or not. Build another contemporary wing on that wood shack, we'll finance it and hide the mortgages in bundles and sell them to Iceland and the Royal Bank of Scotland. I also strongly believe that unlimited credit cards should be given away in the soup kitchens. What the hell, pay it back when you can.

The Good Old Days

According to some:

"British Columbia 1999
The NDP government under Glen Clark hangs by a thread. Having lost all semblance of socialist ideology and policy, the party faces electoral extinction. Returned to government by labour in 1996, after witnessing the results of the Mike Harris triumph, the BC NDP learned no lessons and stumbles from scandal to scandal.

The leadership follows the path of Blair-ism, the Third Way. The Glen Clark government has privatized provincial forests, expanded polluting fish farming, cut back welfare payments, failed to enact needed labour and environmental legislation, and cooped the former pro-business party leader Gordon Wilson into the provincial NDP Cabinet.

Meanwhile tens of thousands have become redundant in the forest sector, homeless people fill the streets of Vancouver, youth unemployment is epidemic, organized racism, sexism and homophobia increases, and labour threatens to break with the NDP. Still the leadership remains mute. Ranks are demoralized by the turn to the right, youth view the NDP as an establishment party, secondary leadership is silenced with patronage appointments, and hundreds of veteran members abandon the party."

http://204.225.123.146/Manifesto/Manifesto.html

Luke

I saw you say "Ontario has never..." and then you qualified it before I could point out they just were. Also, I've seen Ontario often be pretty close to the line. So close it doesn't matter because they weren't contributing much. Although the Ontarian would say at least they weren't taking.

As for those long ago days when Alberta was a "have not" province, don't tell me, tell that to Albertans that complain about the "East" full-time.

Wealthy provinces tend to elect right-wing governments?!? Like Newfoundland? Like PEI? Like Nova Scotia? Like New Brunswick? Like Manitoba? Like Saskatchewan?

All of them have a long history of electing right-wing governments and most of them have NEVER voted in a left-wing government yet they remain a "have-not" province decade after decade.

As for Bavaria, if you want to keep living in the glory days of your "Blue King" by all means do so.

r'man

Yep, that sounds about right. But you also left out the part about not having to pay it back at all, because the government will bail out the people doing the financing at taxpayer expense.

Its what you think taxpayers are for isn't it? Covering the losses of the financial sector.

r'man agreeing with BP?

As Bobby Peru says, government exists to provide a nice atmosphere for business?

Many of us tend to disagree as we think there's a lot of other things government is there for. Little things that tend to be ignored when a "business-friendly" government is in power like a good standard of living and a good safety net for non-business people.

Cool Hand Luke

Just like in the movie:

Frank to Luke: "You gonna get used to wearin' them chains afer a while, Luke. Don't you never stop listenin' to them clinking. 'Cause they gonna remind you of what I been saying. For your own good."

In this case, the chains are what has and will continue to befall BC citizens due to the policies of the BC Liberals. The debt load is huge, the consumption taxes and user fees continually rise and Gordon and his crew continually lower the costs for foreign entities and the uber-wealthy to rape and pillage BC for its resources. Yep, listen to them chains, Luke. Listen to them as they strangle the citizenry.

And before you, again, make ill-commentary about my still being in BC, I must tell our audience that I am still in the process of moving to Nova Scotia. I have purchased real estate and I have been developing that real estate towards my settling there full time. I have a wife and kids; they are involved in things as well. Being a thoughful father, I have not demanded that they reshape all of their plans and goals so that I might attain mine. You can help me leave the province a little sooner if you will purchase my energy-efficient, newly-renovated 3 bdrm, 2 bath single car bungalow in well-maintained, virtually crime-free neighbourhood.

Frank, and Stephanie T

RE: CH, RM and BP:
From Cool Hand Luke, the movie:
"Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he [Gordon Campbell] wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men [and women]."

Carol James

As long as Carol James is leader of the NDP, the Liberals could replace Gordon Campbell with a farm animal..and still win the next election.

NDP

In the past even if I was angry with them on an issue, I would vote for them because I knew who the were. Something happened to the party after 1980, they were sometimes the NDP and sometimes they were masked on issues like Zorro. Back in 97 I even ran as a candidate for the the party and sometimes they were out to shoot themselves. I have often said if the New Democrats were form a firing squad they would form a circle. The party should not ignore business but they should not abandoned the people of BC to cater to them either. I support the party, and I have a small business, the point is the party should stick to representing individual citizens and not
worry about supporting labels, like business, farmers and so on.Carol could be playing a dangerous gamethat could backfire.

Remember Have-Not-Status

Most of you keep asking the question "why won't the majority of the electorate move over and support the NDP when the other party is self destructing".
None of you are going to like having to address this issue but, the fact is that the NDP took control of one of the healthiest provinces in 1991 and made it into a half-not province in a few years. In other words, put BC into a recession while the rest of the continent was in one of the biggest economic expansions in history.

John Corman

You don't read other people's comments eh? As for the Socreds its hard to beat the economic growth they produced in 1982-83 isn't it? Only province in Canada that saw a mini-depression.

90s and the Asian Tigers - part 1

John Corman is foolishly removes the BC economy of the 90s from the setting. In the 90s the NDP were handed an economy in decline due to poor management by the Socreds of the 80s. They had tied too much of the BC economy to the production capacity and economies of Japan and the Asian Tigers.
From the Encyclopedia of Nations:

"To offset the negative impact of the stronger yen on the economy and to stimulate growth in the domestic market, the Japanese government adopted a financial policy in the late 1980s to bolster the real estate and financial sectors. During this period, which came to be known as the "bubble economy," the Bank of Japan reduced its lending interest rate and the government increased its spending dramatically, which raised the value of stocks and inflated the price of land. This in turn stimulated spending and investment by both businesses and consumers. By 1991, stock speculation and large investments in real estate pushed prices up so much that the Bank of Japan was forced to intervene. This burst the bubble economy, and contributed to a decline in the Japanese economy during the 1990s. During that decade, Japanese products became less competitive in domestic and international markets because of higher prices."

Read more: Japan Overview of economy, Information about Overview of economy in Japan http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Japan-OVERVIEW-OF-ECONOMY.html#ixzz10yHmE5k3

Japan and Asian tigers part 2

"The end of the bubble era initiated a period of sluggish growth and a loss of public confidence in the economy, both of which have continued into 2001. Although the government's deflationary measures (policies to reduce prices) triggered a decline in the Japanese economy in the 1990s, they did succeed in keeping inflation very low throughout the decade; annual rates were 1.8 percent in 1997,-0.3 percent in 1999, and-0.6 percent in 2000. The declines in the financial sector have resulted in higher unemployment through layoffs, once considered unthinkable in Japan. From its near-zero levels before 1991, the unemployment rate jumped to 2.2 percent in 1992, 3.2 percent in 1995, and 4.7 percent in 1999. The rate reached a record high of 4.9 percent in March 2000. Compared with many other developed economies such as Canada's, with an average unemployment rate of about 10 percent in the 1990s, Japan's unemployment rates since 1991 have not been very high. Yet they have been very high for a country which long prided itself on its traditions of "lifetime employment" for selected workers and strong employee loyalty. To avoid massive layoffs, many companies initiated a policy of reducing salaries, wages, and bonuses, thus lowering the living standards of many employees and decreasing spending, which, in turn, has prolonged the economic decline. Aimed at boosting the declining economy, Japan tried to restructure the financial sector in 1996 by introducing the so-called "Big Bang" reform measures. Its near zero-percent interest rate contributed to a short-lived increase in GDP (5.1 percent), but it failed to make growth sustainable.

The 1997 Asian financial crisis (which affected South Korea, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore) was the major external factor responsible for Japan's economic downturn. It affected many markets of importance to Japan and worsened the Japanese economy by reducing export demand. The collapse of 3 major Japanese banks and a decrease in consumption further damaged the Japanese economy, which registered a 2.5 percent GDP decline in 1998, though it increased slightly, by 0.2 percent, in 1999 and about 1 percent in 2000."

Read more: Japan Overview of economy, Information about Overview of economy in Japan http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Japan-OVERVIEW-OF-ECONOMY.html#ixzz10yHmE5k3

Back At Err

Not so fast. By October, 1991 the economy started to fall over a cliff. With a 19% prime rate and the demand + price for BC commodities also falling off a cliff, it's not hard to fathom why.

The big boys in real estate stated to fall - Daon (Jack Poole's company), Nu West Development, etc. Lumber mills closed everywhere. Mines closed. Unemployment rose to 15%+, housing prices tanked by ~50%, it was miserable foreclosure city out there.

And the 6% + 5% public sector wage restraint program was opposed by the BC Fed and the NDP. That was not a wise pubic policy position IMHO.

Same thing happened next door in Alberta. Oil prices tanked and people gave the keys to their houses to the bank. A very brutal economic time.

So what are ya really tryin' to say? A Barrett NDP government would have led us all to the promised land? ;)

Firstly, a government doesn't 'manage' an economy. It puts policies into place such as taxation rates, regulations, etc. that can either enhance or hinder an economy.

From 1985 to 1990 the BC economy was recovering and chugging along on all cylinders. The 1991 interest rate spike caused another short mini-recession, but by 1992 and 1993 things chugged along again. From 1994 to 2001 everything was flat. The housing market certainly was.

As for this Asian Flu, US exports accounted for 42% of BC exports in 1990, which rose to 70% by 2001 as a result of the slumping Canadian$ (in our favour) and the (despised) free trade agreement with the Yanks.

That still does not explain why BC was virtually last on the economic ladder on every leading economic indicator, compared to other Canadian provinces, during most of the 1990's - which later resulted in BC becoming a 'have-not' province by 2001. I understand and know why, do you?

Gee whiz Cool Hand..

...you just proved everything you have been claiming has been false. All of what you claim disproves you last paragraph. Way to go!

Luke

I don't get your point, you're basically defending what the NDP was given when they took over in 1991 and I know that wasn't your intention.

As for housing prices in the mid to late 90's remaining flat, so? They were flat in the rest of Canada too. I'm looking at a graph of the Toronto market going back to 1989 right now and if you're under the impression everyone outside of BC was experiencing a real estate boom in the 1990's you're mistaken.

On the subject of the Asian Flu, go look at the stats on GDP at BC Stats. The NDP's worst years were 97-98 which just happens to align perfectly with the Asian problems.

As for "every leading economic indicator" you're of course only including the ones you like. We've been over this, the NDP was doing better on GDP growth than the Liberals have done since. Population wasn't leaving the province it was growing faster than it has under the Liberals. Debt was rising but not as fast as it has under the Liberals and so on.

Frank

Heavens to Murgatroyd! '1991' should have read '1981'. Now I'm gonna exit stage left.....

1981 or 1991

Yep, things were bad in 1981. But the recession that hit BC under the Socreds was worse than anywhere else in Canada. Much worse. If you want to argue this point I'll oblige you.

Carole James

She took the job when no one else wanted it. Fact is she should have taken it earlier because it was obvious that Ujjal didn't want the job. In that election of 2001 he practically begged BC to not vote for him.

In 2005 Carole brought the part back from the dead.

She can be partially blamed for the loss of 2009 but the thing is, non-voters outnumbered the Liberal and NDP voters combined. Which means non-voters could have elected anyone they wanted to be premier. Instead they chose to keep Gordon.

So blame non-voters.

Bill Tieleman joins the fray

Friends and foes - thanks for the spirited and often enlightening discourse here - always gratifying for any of us fortunate enough to write for The Tyee.

I won't belabor - or is that be labour? - many of the arguments made but I do want to clarify a few points.

1. I am not anti-business - I own a business and have run it successfully for over a dozen years. I have business clients, and although they are in the minority to labour and non-profits, I obviously appreciate their perspective or they wouldn't hire me. My father was a small businessman as well.

2. I am not running for leader of the NDP or anything else. I would like to see a change of government to a more rational, reasonable and humane social democratic administration.

3. Nothing I say is personal about Carole James. She is a very decent human being, compassionate and dedicated. That I publicly disagree with her and her advisors, whom I know and like, is more difficult than some readers can realize.

4. Labour has always been a key partner in the NDP and in other social democratic parties. Business has never been, though their support is welcome and should be encouraged within an acceptance of party principles.

5. Confusing municipal and provincial politics is a fundamental error. The issues are different, the powers are different and the players are different. My well known support for Vision Vancouver and Mayor Gregor Robertson is in no way contradicted by my advice for the BC NDP.

6. Lastly, thanks for the many private messages of support I have received for calling it as I see it - this is an important debate - not just for the NDP but for the future of this province.

Refuting Barryeng

Barryeng said
"Carol is a nice lady, very smart and moderately presentable, but her head is in the clouds.”

He also said “As bad as Campbell is, he still has the support of the business community,”

First, isn’t it about time we looked at the possibility that a “nice person” just might be what we need in this screwed-up province – and country? I find it absolutely appalling that ‘being nice’ is a negative! Campbell was never, on his best day, called ‘nice’ and look what that got us.

Second, “Campbell has the support of the business community.” Sorry, dude, but I can’t believe that anyone believes that!
The business community will support the Liberal Party (but Campbell only by association) – until there is what they consider a viable alternative, and as soon as they feel they have found that party, Campbell will be a distant memory – languishing in some gold-plated chair in some invisible office. He will get his reward, but only because the next one anointed to do BB bidding will know that, if he/she delivers, they WILL be taken care of later. I can just imagine the backroom boys eyeballing the potential leaders a new party – already planning a coup that will make the recalls look like a school play.

The NDP's March of Folly

If James and the rest of the NDP had more substance to their platform and policies besides Campbell a drunk, liar and generally all around evil person, the NDP might be considered a reasonable alternative. All this vague talk about social justice and being kinder and gentler is so warm and soft, but what are the policies.

And without policy proposals to measure the NDP's position, voters will simply and smartly assume that the party is still controlled by the same clowns who ran it during Glen Clark's disasterous regime.

Although some of you think that the NDP should staunchly remain the political arm of organized labour, whose main goal is to advance the economic goals of unionized government workers, this is no longer considered acceptable by non-unionized BC voters. And that's alot of voters who are suspicious of the NDP.

One can easily imagine that if James and the NDP win, they will depose her like Harcourt and replace her with another former union leader. But, alas, the NDP won't win the next election. The Liberals' current unpopularity is only because of the HST. And so far, the NDP and James have done nothing to exploit it and advance their chances of winning the next election. So the NDP could very likely snatch defeat from the jaws of victory- again. And then another blog complaining about the voter's ignorance will appear on Tyee.

Tieleman's only explanation for his approval of property developers who supported Vision is that municipal elections are different ones (?). Like how?

It only takes a few of his/her posts ...

to realize Bobby Peru-asaurus is a dinosaur in the field of economics and politics.

Now Bobby Peru may have a good reason(s) for holding firmly to the primitive arguments he/she posts: I strongly suspect it is because this is how our real-time politics still insists on operating and, accordingly, the layperson learns by way of example; and/or because these views entail the age-old fundamentals taught to students in high schools and in introductory university courses; alternatively, it may be for a reason more sinister than that (i.e., he/she is a paid Liberal hack).

In short, Bobby Peru, the accounting used in contemporary economics is both fraudulent and intellectually dishonest. I am not going to rant on about obvious shortcomings such as using the GDP as an economic barometer, or how accepted accounting practices typically dismiss the social or ecological costs, or how we have learned to assess our standard of living through the propaganda campaign waged by government against the citizens, or the centuries old Role of Power having the economic-political tables gamed by design against the people, etc. These deceptions have been well publicized in Canada for decades.

All I can suggest, Bobby Peru, is that you pick up some books, perhaps start with a solid primer published in 1993 called The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken and give yourself a broader education; alternatively, if you know this information, then I suggest you check your moral and ethical compass.

And to close, and it is not much, but the little the NDP offers in advantage over the Liberals is the fact they are 'driving the truck toward the cliff a little bit slower thereby giving the population, much like yourself Bobby Peru, a chance to get up to speed with the inevitable disaster looming unless we change our thinking and the course we are on'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

re: Mooney "As long as Carol James is leader of the NDP, the Liberals could replace Gordon Campbell with a farm animal..and still win the next election."

You may be right but, if so, this simply illustrates how profoundly stupid the people in BC have allowed themselves to become. In the end, we only have ourselves to blame.

It's Called Shifting Blame I...

"She can be partially blamed for the loss of 2009 but the thing is, non-voters outnumbered the Liberal and NDP voters combined. Which means non-voters could have elected anyone they wanted to be premier." Frank.

Nah, non-voters simply didn't participate in the bs process. What difference there is between the Liberals and NDP, agreeing that the NDP "possibly" serves a delaying the inevitable end, which is tactically really more serving business than anyone else, did and does not justify making a choice between two or more redundancies. And one is always free to put their partisan slant on things, as you just did, of course. But then, one is equally free to disagree as well... and I do.

And delay, in some tactical situations is useful, no doubt, but in this time it is my own view, that folks coming to feel the full weight of the times is not without value either. And that is what is going to occur here sooner or later regardless.

Besides, conversely, this process of actually leading and helping to raise the level of understanding of "the electorate masses" would be better served by giving them more hope that a fightback was actually underway, with less concern for merely "sliding into power" sans concrete commitments or a clear reform mandate in this or that election. The NDP just keeps making the choice to come off more and more as any other party to capitalism, talking in vagaries and generalities, with its "investor" preoccupations the only real thing that can be counted on. In which case, one might as well vote for one of the parties of which the investor/business class approves. And if you are not prepared to do that, accept the fact of the absence of real choice and move, like I say, to the sidelines to await a changed circumstance and dynamic. Which we are both agreed is destined to deteriorate more or less slowly in any case.

No, the NDP lost the election as a consequence of its own failures, resulting from its shallow analyses of what is happening here, and chose as a result to move, along with trade unions, to a losing and shallow defencive rather than offencive posture. You can't blame those of us outside the current bullshit choice arena for what goes on there.

It is time to bring this bullshit to a head and resolve it, once and for all.

Continued next post...

It's Called Shifting Blame 2...

From previous post...

Meanwhile, we'll leave you folks to dance the dance with the partner that brought you to the ball.

And my bet is, you are right about one thing, current non-voters could still elect anyone we wanted, if and when there is ever a real choice out there. And only then, my friend. (Barring the unforeseen.)

In any case, the non-participatory eligible electorate are helping to change the dynamic already, rendering it increasingly illegitimate, forcing "some" retrospection into the system and helping to bring it to the crisis stage that must come in advance of any real solution creation.

As much as I respect you Frank, and many other NDPers here, you are continuing to attempt to play the game of "business as usual" when it is NOT in fact a business as usual situation. And y'all can simply not be allowed to pretend that it is, regardless of the good intentions paving the road to your own party Hell