Perhaps the day will come ...

... when we will turn to brain neuroplasticity to rewire the mind for such behaviour. In the interim, we still don't know if we are trying to solve a physical urge, a psychological urge or both.

We can easily recognize the differences between the sexual molestor and the violent rapist who targets adult women out of anger and a need for control. But ham-fistedly catgorizing such criminals, at best, moves us a little nearer the appropriate treatment.

For me, castration seems to be the starting point. It may be a blunt instrument but some illnesses need to be removed. From there how we buttress this with psychologial treatment is best left with the experts.

News flash

If one has read history (and many have not and rely on Hollywood's version) castration is not a remedy for sexual crime. Only if castration happens before puberty, will the male be unable to have an erection.

See "Castratos"

In ancient and non too ancient times, adult male slaves were castrated to provide the owner with pregnant free sex. The castrated slave was able to maintain a full erection, thus pleasuring 'who ever'.

This practice was continued in the southern United States until the Civil War.

As Rafe stated, it is the brain, not the testicles that make a predator.

As for Daphne Bramham, I wish she concentrate more on corrupt politicians and corrupt political practices.

Maybe we should castrate all corrupt politicians?

sigh

I would think that castration might 'cure' one particular form of crime, whilst encouraging others.In the meantime, if as a society we would at least attempt to treat such criminals, we might learn a great deal...in contrast to the present situation.If we cannot understand, we cannot change it...

In our society we don't look

In our society we don't look for remedies to fix a problem we react with our basic animal instincts to get revenge. Guess who's there to accommadate our gut reaction? Yer right, the politians because they know that they could use the old tried and true method of getting votes; 'to be tough on crime', slap them in the slammer and through away the key, that'll learn 'em. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is basic insanity.

Some gaps in Rafe's argument

Rafe, your argument presupposes that this "illness" can be successfully treated? You need to exhibit some data to this effect. I personally don't know of a single treatment that 'cures' this mental condition.

Second, your mental illness argument could be made for just about any deviant or criminal behaviour, so if you permit pedophiles to get treatment at the "Queen's Pleasure" - why not sociopaths, psychopaths and the rest. Surely, they too suffer from bad brain wiring. I think you are on a very slippery legal slope with your argument because there's a big difference from pre-meditated sexual abuse and acts in which suspect is deemed criminally not responsible because he/she was truly under the influence of hallucinations and other mental states that clouded judgment (the bipolar-mania of Kim Noyes, who killed the autistic boy in the interior come to mind; or the Chinese guy who decapitated the young man on a Greyhound bus). Somewhere in this quagmire is the tricky question concerning free will.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, we accept your strategy. Let's say, unlike other mental "diseases", that sex abusers are in a special, unique category and deserves a unique mental and legal approach. Well, you'd better have the resources in place to deal with the long line of people needing help, and that means money, TAXPAYER money. You will need institutional space, trained experts in the field of treating this "illness" and the other resources associated with such a strategy. And this goes without mentioning the legal barriers you will face in Ottawa. What politician in their right mind would float this balloon to voters? Unless all political parties are on board, suggesting this radical policy shift would result in certain defeat of any candidate putting it our there.

I think your overall sentiment is right. The status quo fails, and fails hard. There must be a better way.

put the skinners in general population in jail

and your problem will be solved, end of story , no bodylikes a skinner

but we're saying no to cures?

Interesting coincidence that Mair is saying treat molesters like sick people, but then we have the Campbell government teaming up with BC Liberties to take away approved, effective remedies such as the penile plethysmograph. Many child molesters are children themselves - or youth - and the PP is one way that these "sick" molesters may be cured. It works for adults, it works for male children. Whats Turpel-Lafond's problem? Pretty soon, the BCCLA will get the PP off the approved list for adult molesters. We're moving backwards, not forwards.

castrate them

And give them female hormones. Hormones can change the brain, and thus the 'sick' desires of pedophiles. if that doesn't work, hang the bastards.

Institutionalize them!

Simplest way to treat sociopaths is institutionalize them, not in prisons - the idea of punishing people is almost as depraved as the crimes committed - but in institutions for the criminally insane. Make them work there to help pay for their upkeep. And while we are about it, institutionalize the other sociopaths - right wing politicos and the corporate CEOs they whore for, for criminals like Campbell and Harper cause more sufferering than any run of the mill regular psycho,

Some additional comments

1. There is a vast difference between what happens to sex offenders in terms of treatment, depending on whether they are in the federal, or provincial systems. There are well-established SO treatment programs in the federal system and much more in-depth psycho-sexual assessment. Provincially, for adults, there is virtually no treatment at all, including within the Forensic system. In many respects, sex offenders are simply being warehoused until they get released on an unsuspecting public because they've been under lock and key until the Review Board cuts them loose.

2. The Criminal Code finding, made by a Judge, is "Not Criminally Responsible on account of Mental Disorder" (NCRMD). Then their disposition is deferred to the Review Board, which decides on whether they will be released into the community, or detained. Some sex offenders may receive a NCRMD finding, but usually it is because they have a psychotic disorder that influenced them to act out in a sexual manner while in a psychotic state. The majority of sex offenders are simply not NCRMD. And if they used drugs, or alcohol prior to the offence, they should not qualify for a NCRMD finding.

The most important part of being found NCRMD is whether the individual could appreciate the moral wrongness of their actions. Most SO's can appreciate and _know_ their actions are morally wrong. However, they still make a decision to act, perhaps based on a compulsion, but they do decide to act, rather than say, seek help (if they could find it). Most theraepeutic treatment programs for SO's are CBT-based. It aims at unravelling the cognitive distortions that facilitate the decisions to commit sex offenses. Here's an example, "well, what did she think was going to happen when she wore something like that? She was just asking for it."

3. There is much, much more sex offender treatment necessary for every age group. Children who demonstrate early signs of precocious, and/or intrusive sexual behaviours. Adolescents who are already offending against other children, or even adult victims. And of course adults. How easy do you think it is for most individuals, who recognize their sexual deviance, to find anyone to enter into therapeutic treatment with? This is an area that requires clinical expertise that is very hard to find, or afford unless someone has been adjudicated and still is not easy to access even then.

4. Not all, but many sex offenders have been victims of sexual abuse themselves and they never got any help, or counselling to resolve this trauma. I've known males with the most horrific sexual abuse histories and children who've literally been taught to abuse other children because this was what their abusers also got off on. Then that once innocent child has a switch pulled that interrupted their normal sexual development and left them as an offender. Where is the help for those children, the next generation of SO's?

prisons

How many mental illnesses can be prevented ?? How many people would be well served by a political system that cares for the people not use them for cash cows or objects to be kicked for the entertainment.
What would happen if we started by making sure that kids are safe at home?? Lets support the parents - lets give parenting classes, make sure they don't suffer family violence. These will be difficult considering the lieberals have cut back on almost all programs that supported families. Lets start with the welfare system and how shabby that is. Trying to get income assistance is hard - for those who how it truely works its called legalized abuse or forced begging

There must be many ways that prevent many social problems - especially the problems that are in fact when kids become adults. As adults these problems are criminal -
denial is the last thing our society needs

Rafe Mair's suggestion isn't as costly as it appears

I disagree with one comment that said that putting pathologically motivated sex offenders in jail was too expensive. The cost to society and all the therapy necessary to rehabilitate victims(not all of whom come forward or are revealed) is immeasurable. If money was the main reason we can't lock these people up, would'nt execution appear to be the least costly? You could do like some nazi general did and just line them up and see how many you can kill with one bullet? Or, we could farm out for things like medical experiments or the sale of their body parts? Should money or morals be the driving force behind our justice and medical system, and our laws?

oops

I meant we should put pathologically motivated sex offenders in psychiatric institutions, not jail. sorry.

A necessary and useful discussion.

There seems to be agreement that the abusers can"t be "cured".
Too often, that is the end of the discussion.
There are plainly many different things that do reduce recidivism.
Treatment helps.
Close supervision of offenders in the community helps.
Supporting safe family and community connections helps.
After release, continuing support to maintain a healthy low-risk lifestyle helps.
Some of these characters have complex issues, but we are getting better at understanding them.
If there ever is a "cure" for these people it will most likely come out of our efforts to actually use the tools at our disposal today

Putting Molesters in Jail Won't Fix Them

Since there is no cure for sex offenders, I say execute them. Why should decent citizens have to pay for their upkeep while they have all their needs taken care of?

And, don't give me that crap about their human rights - when you violate children you aren't entitled to anything, let alone rights!!!

Indeed, putting people in

Indeed, putting people in jail doesn't fix them. Prison can't rehabilitate people. It punishes offenders by relieving them of their civil liberties but that's not much of a deterrence. In fact, it's not prisons and the nature of the punishment that deters offences, it's the likelihood of getting caught in the first place. Prison doesn't "help."

What prison does do effectively is isolate offenders and keep them away from the rest of us. If someone is too messed up to function in society, we should just be honest with that person (and with ourselves) and simply say, "Sorry, we can't handle you. We're shipping you off to Saturna Island where we have a nice quiet facility. We'll check in with you periodically and when it looks like you'e got it together you can can rejoin us."

Castration works best

Preying on small children and stealing away their little souls is as sick as you can get. These guys know they are doing wrong as cops, lawyers, Indian chiefs have been caught with their hands in little children's pants along with the pictures to remind them off the prized events. What is the cure zapping the predators parts as apparently the sicko that was doing that was let off the job in BC. And what about the pig farmer, sick or not as officers who have been exposed to child porn could end up being as sick as the rest.
Some of the treatments available include the following:
Castration- Drastic, yes, but it is also considered very effective. However, it isn't used very often.
Depo-Provera- This drug blocks the hormone progesterone.
Celexa, Luvox, Lexapro, Luvox, Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft- These drugs have met with minimal success in some cases.

Therapy combined with some type of drug treatment has met with little sucdess.

The successful treatment of pedophilia is very difficult and once most get to prison the only treatment received is being locked up in a cell.

12 Step program

It is not the workings of God but a program for offending priests as the church has more than its fair share of pedophiles hiding behind the pews as troubled Roman Catholic priests receive treatment from church for their sickness.

15 months of individual and group therapy, a 12-step addiction program, fraternal support and spiritual direction is supposed to make the priest as good as the rest.

Vianney Renewal Center, 30 miles southwest …

Savage Spawn

The truth is that the medical profession still has trouble distinguishing btwn psychosis and psychopathy, which are two very distinct illnesses. Psychosis is treatable to a large extent, anyway, but psychopathy - nunh-uh. We just don't know very much about its causes and nothing at all about treatment. All we do know is that there's no cure and that psychopaths almost invariably continue along their terrible paths, escalating their crimes.

Psychologist Jon Kellerman and many of his colleagues argue that psychopathic criminals should be locked up. Forever. At least until we have a reliable treatment for their violent mindset. See http://www.bcdisabilities.com/bcdisforum/viewtopic.php?t=107 for the skinny.

There used to be a program in Winnipeg, Man. for sex offenders and the guy who headed it had this to say about his patients: "When you say the word, 'victim,' to these guys, they always think you're talking about them."

Sex Offenders are ill

I agree with Rafe that there are two determinations in a trial...(1) did he/she do it (2) what mitigating factors were present at the time of the crime. It is a matter of justice...to put a patently mad person into jail is absurd and not a matter of the cheapest cost to the taxpayer. Psychiatry is the step child or the least developed of the sub disciplines we call medicine and much is yet to be learned about the deviant. Brain research on psychopaths shows different functioning which explains their lack of empathy for their victims. As Rafe describes compulsions, they will eventually be found to be faulty functioning in the brain, I am sure. The court system in the future will just have to be wiser as it decides how much a person is responsible for their bad acts. To put the Kleptomaniac in prison is unjust but if treatment is possible and a cure is effected, restitution which is so often ignored is appropriate. To fine a finance company several million dollars when it has illicitly stolen several billion dollars flies in the face of common sense.In the literature on psychopathy the scientists seem to ignore the probability that it fits the curve of normal distribution. That is why the advances in brain research are so important in deciding how much we are sick and how much we can be deterred from bad acts by the threat of fine, restitution and incarceration. Rafe's heart is in the right place...he is just a little ahead if his time!!!!

There are big differences between psychotics and psychopaths

ASKBiblitz wrote:

"The truth is that the medical profession still has trouble distinguishing btwn psychosis and psychopathy, which are two very distinct illnesses. "

Psychosis has a very well known set of symptoms, both positive and negative, such as hearing voices, holding delusional beliefs, hallucinations (seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing things), increased irritability, decreased hygiene for some, isolation, changes in eating & sleeping patterns, thought-form and disorganized thinking, word salad... many more.

Psychopathy is still a construct in progress, but both personality and character are key components. I was able to attend the most recent Intl. Forensic conference and was actually struck by how much research has been and is being done on psychopathy and how little we still understand it, or what to do about it. There are also different types of psychopaths, some are very successful, think Enron folks and the big banks and many more, who are rich, ruthless and powerful. They've mastered a mask of socialization. Psychopaths invariably leave a trail of wreckage behind them, but I don't think we have enough money in the world to lock all of them up forever and there would be a whole lot of jobs available in the corporate world if we did. hahaha

Back to the original topic at hand though, it would be incorrect to assume that all sex offenders are psychopaths. They simply aren't, but what I've recently come to the conclusion about is that ALL SO's are narcissists, because, if you can appreciate the moral wrongness of your actions (psychopaths do not in any way subscribe to moral codes at a very core level, but can intellectually understand them, perhaps) and still act to sexually abuse, or offend against another, be they a child, or adult, then you have put your own sexual and other gratification and needs before the needs for safety and security of the person you are offending against and, to continue the cognitive distortion piece, you will find ways to convince yourself of the rightness of your actions (Ie. "they were asking for it" thinking).

It also must be said that SO treatment can and does help people. Not everyone. But some. I would ask anyone who might be reading this if they can consider whether they ever knew someone who was rumoured to date rape someone, or a teacher who was known to have sex with students, or someone who was known as the creep in the neighbourhood, or someone who has been caught looking at deviant porn. There is a continuum of sexual behaviours we humans engage in. I'm not convinced that some individuals cannot work through what may be considered deviant, at best, and harmful to others at worst. For some, they should be locked up forever because they will always pose a risk to others. If you're not clinically treatable, you should be in jail, because that's where you belong. Over time, it's not hard to assess that someone is not treatable.

Advocacy BC ...

You bring up some interesting points.

Nonetheless, I think one really critical thing that must be kept in mind when discussing sex offenders is the simple fact that, outside of certain extremes, society changes what it defines as deviant behaviour on a fequent basis. So that many behaviours that are deviant today will be acceptable tomorrow, and the reverse is true too.

Not to mention the even more complex issue of different sub-cultural definitions of deviant/norm. What's deviant to a hardcore Catholic is almost certainly not deviant to a quiet atheist, and so on.

Ultimately, my point is that much of this discussiopn tends to focus with far too much lazy ease on set ideas and specific plans to fix a problem that is to a large degree not fixable simply because the target keeps shifting; the goals posts moving.

You may not agree...

But I am living proof that treatment for sex offenders DOES work.

I know this may bring retribution from society on my head, but I do not fear that, as I have paid my debt to society and am attempting to do what most rehabilitated criminals hope to do: Live a normal life.

I was released in 1999 after almost 6 years in the Paul Dojack Youth Center, In their Sex Offender Treatment Program(SOTP). While in their care for my original two-year sentence for various offenses, I admitted to further offenses through my therapy and was charged for those. I did so willingly, so that the people I hurt could also get help. Does this make me a saint? no, but it does show that these programs do work. Not everyone who goes through the programs succeeds, but I do agree that, given sufficient time and effort, even the worst sex offenders can be rehabilitated. Was it hard? yes! Was it worth it? absolutely!
I am now a married man in my early 30's, with a wonderful wife, a god-given family, and I also work in the non-profit sector helping people who are homeless and at-risk for homelessness. Going through that program, while it challenged me in every conceivable way possible, also taught me how to deal with my impulses and emotions. I have been offense free since my release from the program.
The only issue that I wish they had addressed with me while I was in there was my problem with lust and pornography. As that is largely a religious conviction, I can also understand why they did not.
In short, say what you will, treatment for sex offenders does work and it is out there. My only wishes are that this would help someone else get help, and that as a result of that, there would be less people hurt by sex offenders.

Criminal Justice Doesn't Work for the Mentally Ill

America uses its prison system to handle the mentally ill with predictable results. A close friend of mine has a thriving law practice representing the mentally ill back East. In many criminal cases he seeks to have his client found guilty while the Crown argues for not guilty by reason of insanity. My friend wants to get his client the briefest possible sentence followed by return to the outside. The Crown in these cases wants an indeterminate sentence that would, in most cases, be far longer and uncertain.

Responses

adamvan2000, thanks very much for writing about your successful treatment and rehabilitation. You were a courageous person to walk through that and to take responsibility for your actions to others and try to prevent more. You and the world are a better place because you did.

John Greg: I agree with you that sexual behaviour is culturally relativistic. In some cultures people marry child brides, have anal sex with children (who are less likely to have HIV/AIDS) and mutilate the genitals of girls. From my Western stance, I believe all of those things are barbaric and inhumane.

Rd: NCRMD verdicts are not always what they're cracked up to be, ask some of the people trapped in forensic hospitals about that. But for some, it is what is needed - more long-term treatment, stabilization and opportunities for rehabilitation.

It isn't great for people to spin through the forensic & jail systems, get a little bit more stable on some meds and then back out onto the streets and off meds again, with some back to their drugs of choice to do the cycle all over again. Homelessness, marginalized, desocialized...

In my observation, these people who cycle often get more and more ill, until they end up sometimes committing pretty terrible crimes. Sometimes they become chronically ill, with psychotic disorders,less able to bounce back, more permanently delusional. They also burnout their family members and supports and become more and more isolated.

Tyee, thanks for allowing this dialogue.