Skywalker - send the bill here

Sure Skywalker, send your bill here. Add up how much provincial tax you paid out (sales and otherwise).

Divide by 365 (for a daily rate). Send in the per day amount.

We'll take that and fiure out what % is your contribution against the per day expenses of the Olympics, but factor in the other taxpayers who also contributed, the contributing sponsors, governments (Canada, the City of Vancouver) etc. etc.

You should be getting about 3 cents.

Minus any processing fees applicable.

Liars can sure figure.

Your convoluted calculations don't hide a thing. I wish I could, I'd send you my portion for the next 10 years and you could pay it all. Except then you'd run.

The best thing about the

The best thing about the Olympics being over is we don't have to listen to Chris Shaw anymore.

Sharing is Good

So the homeless have been moved out of Vancouver and are now where resources are limited. Funny how that 'moved out' story never made into any media, even the Tyee. Could be quite a story. Sharing, I gotta hand it to ya, that was right up there with the likes of Karl Rove for super-spin. Think a bit though, maybe they all left because it's becoming too much of a fun city. Maybe they're just fed up with all the options.

You should join up with Chris Shaw and do a speaking tour to sell his book in London. You know, "don't waste money on new Transit" and "spending on Security is stupid", "buy my book". You could be the straight-man in the crowds asking the right questions and telling everyone what an absolute disaster Vancouver is.

Except that I will add the cost...

of the Vancouver convention Center, the sea to sky highway upgrade, and all the other things that you avoid. Hell, I'll take your share of fast ferries any day in exchange. Your not as good at math as you think because a whole lot of your stuff never gets included. You are good at Campbell Math I'll grant you that.

BC Boy

Take my advice, don't try to do math. You just embarrass yourself on here every time.

Frank take your own advice

"Take my advice, don't try to do math. You just embarrass yourself on here every time."

Yeah right. So how is it that "Skywalker" thinks he is entitled to some returned money over anyone else?

Has there ever been any returned money Frank on NDPs projects such as the Fast Cats?

Look at the big picture, bud. Lots of BC taxpayers, lots of Canadian taxpayers, the sources of revenue for the Olympics from sponsors and those who bought tickets.

Skywalker would only be entitled to 3 cents, if that.

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Projects that were needed.

"of the Vancouver convention Center, the sea to sky highway upgrade, and all the other things that you avoid."

What's to avoid? They exist.

"Hell, I'll take your share of fast ferries any day in exchange."

In that case, you'd lose big time. The FastCats were a disaster right from the start. The first one
broke down two weeks into service, the second had
problems, and the third was never used. They never reached their reported design speed and ballyhooed
carrying capacity.

Add to that the CFI group was a disaster in trying to sell the aluminium tub design worldwide. Heck even the so-called lady business excutive from a major business group hired by the NDP forget her sales materials when she was at a Ferry Convention
in Boston one year. Pure genius.

Would have been alot better to continue with steel hulled ferries and continue an upgrade programme
after the Spirit ferries were finished, but the NDP didn't see that one.

"Your not as good at math as you think because a whole lot of your stuff never gets included. You are good at Campbell Math I'll grant you that."

So what's to be included? The Sea to Sky Highway?
Had to be done and not nessearily as a prequiste for getting the games. The highway except in a few spots was never upgraded since the last major upgrade done in the early 1980's. Much of that old highway was never touched since it was built in the 1950's, and there was a stretch north of Brackendale that was a very narrow paved over logging road.

Convention Centre? There has been a limitation on convention capacity, so the Convention Centre went ahead. The additional costs were because of materials, not design errors. The Convention Centre has many major conventions booked for the next several years.

Canada Line? Muchly needed as the current (non Olympic bump) has shown. Should have been completed ahead of the NDP's ballyhooed M-Line which was according to Clark was oringally supposed to be an LRT line along Broadway.

BC Boy

There would have been a better return on the sale of the Fast Cats if Campbell didn't decide to sell them quickly - on the day the verdict came down for his drunk driving charge. He needed a big news story to play against his bad news.

Re read the history

"There would have been a better return on the sale of the Fast Cats if Campbell didn't decide to sell them quickly - on the day the verdict came down for his drunk driving charge. He needed a big news story to play against his bad news"

Um no. The NDP first tried to sell the FastCats prior to their defeat in May 2001, and they weren't able to. The ferries were formally put to auction on March 24, 2003. The Campbell government
was formally established in June 2001.

So the concept of "selling quickly" doesn't hold.

Campbell was convicted of drunk driving in Hawaii
in January 2003, so there was three months between the two.

BC Boy

"Has there ever been any returned money Frank on NDPs projects such as the Fast Cats?"

Since the Fast Cats cost about a fifteenth of what the Olympics cost and you claim that's only 3 cents per taxpayer doesn't that mean you're complaining about a fifth of a cent?

"the sources of revenue for the Olympics from sponsors and those who bought tickets."

Does that add up to over $6.5 billion? Because I don't think it does.

"Frank you have been embarrassing yourself since you arrived at the Tyee."

What a comeback. Kudos.

Keep trying.

"Since the Fast Cats cost about a fifteenth of what the Olympics cost and you claim that's only 3 cents per taxpayer doesn't that mean you're complaining about a fifth of a cent?"

Not complaining at all. The premise is that there's no way anyone including you or myself, anyone would be entitled to a "refund" on perceived
"personal tax cost" on projects such as these simply because a person doesn't like them.

The point here is that there's no claim on your part, my part or anyone's part to "get my money back", since the perceived amounts would be so small, it probably wouldn't even reach 1 cent let alone three cents.

"the sources of revenue for the Olympics from sponsors and those who bought tickets."

Does that add up to over $6.5 billion? Because I don't think it does."

The tickets, no, but they are part of the total
revenue received for the Games. You'll see that in the financial statements (ticketing revenue). Plus revenue from sponsors, no. but we'll see when the audited statements come out where the revenues stand in terms of covering expenses. Such expenses do not include the Sea to Sky Highway, Convention Centre or Canada Line since they were not phyiscally part of the Games, but built for the use of the Games and well after that (as were
the Oval and the Vancouver Olympic Centre.

"Frank you have been embarrassing yourself since you arrived at the Tyee."

What a comeback. Kudos.

Thank you. and keep trying for that Gold Medal in
embarrasing yourself. You're in the win for that medal.

BC Boy

But what does all that "revenue" actually add up to? Not $6.5 billion, that's for sure.

"Such expenses do not include..."

That's like me declaring the price of the house isn't part of my budget because I get long-term use out of it.

Frank

Quit putting words in my mouth.

Do you really believe that any of the money spent on the Olympics would have ever gone to the homeless otherwise? If you do, do I have a bridge for you.

Use applicable comparisons

That's like me declaring the price of the house isn't part of my budget because I get long-term use out of it"

You also get equity and accumlative value from it something which doesn't exist with events such as the Olympics. So the two are not comparable.

snert

I didn't put any words into your mouth.

You don't believe the $7 billion we spent on the Olympics would have housed the homeless. Nor would it have alleviated child poverty. Nor would it have meant operating rooms operating for a great er number of hours. Nor would it have meant more special ed teachers or librarians or less closed schools.

"Do you really believe that any of the money spent on the Olympics would have ever gone to the homeless otherwise?"

Could have? Yes. Or towards other pressing issues where the answer is more money.

"If you do, do I have a bridge for you."

Perhaps the money could have been used to build bridges without tolls?

BC Boy

"So the two are not comparable."

Fine, it was your argument.

House was yours not mine

"Fine, it was your argument."

The point of the house entering the discussion was yours, not mine.

But getting back to the article, wonder exactly what it is that Chris Shaw has actually done for the homeless? Had homeless stay at his house? Is he on some kind of charity that works for resolution of homeless?

"The point of the house

"The point of the house entering the discussion was yours, not mine."

Don't be obtuse, you're declaring things like the Canada Line as not being part of Olympic spending because its a long-term asset.

Now suddenly you say there's no comparison with a house.

Fine.

So that takes us back to square one which is that Olympic revenue is about $5.5 billion short of paying for Olympic costs.

You claim that $5.5 billion is only 3 cents per British Columbian which is of course not the case unless the Olympics only cost $120,000. That leaves another $5.4 billion to be paid for.

Frank

You don't believe the $7 billion we spent on the Olympics would have housed the homeless. Nor would it have alleviated child poverty. Nor would it have meant operating rooms operating for a great er number of hours. Nor would it have meant more special ed teachers or librarians or less closed schools.

Yes, you did. My assertion, although not stated as such, is that that much money would never have been spent otherwise. You leaped to some other conclusion all on your own.

I see the figure has now risen to $7bn. What is this a bidding war to see how much smoke and mirrors can drive up the price?

Woo

hoo.

snert

I've always used the number $7 billion.

Unlike BC Boy who a month ago claimed the fast ferries were $400 million, then $500 million and now $600 million.

"Yes, you did."

No, I didn't.

"My assertion, although not stated as such, is that that much money would never have been spent otherwise."

Then you should have stated it.

Frank face the big picture

"Don't be obtuse, you're declaring things like the Canada Line as not being part of Olympic spending because its a long-term asset."

The Canada Line was a supplemental project (in parallel with the Olympics), not specifically inclusive with the Olympics as would the building of the Oval, upgrades to UBC, and the Whistler Nordic Centre. It was built in time for the Olympics as a supplementary project but was never part of the actual Olympic project manifestations as the venues were.

"Now suddenly you say there's no comparison with a house."

"There isn't. Its like saying the recent paving street is part of your cost of the house, which it isn't.

Fine.

"So that takes us back to square one which is that Olympic revenue is about $5.5 billion short of paying for Olympic costs."

Not so. You're including the Convention Centre, Canada Line and Sea to Sky which were built with the time line of completion before the Olympics, but are not part of the actual venue structures such as The Oval, Thunderbird Stadium, Whistler Sliding Centre, etc.

"You claim that $5.5 billion is only 3 cents per British Columbian which is of course not the case unless the Olympics only cost $120,000. That leaves another $5.4 billion to be paid for."

Sorry wrong. You're not including the contribtions of total costs proided by Canadian taxpayers, ticket purchasing, sponsorships, international ticket buyers and the like.

Your own personal contribution to the Olympics is far less then 3 cents per British Columbian when the total overall collection of source money is taken into account.

and even then there's no means to return that to you simply because you didn't like what your taxpayer dollar were used for.

There's many things I don't like goverment paying for with my tax dollars, but wouldn't get it back
simply because I don't like the spending on it.

We cannot choose indivudually what our tax dollars are spent on. Couldn't do that with the NDP, can't
do that with the BC Liberals, and certainly would not be able to do that if by chance the NDP wins government in 2013.

Learn to live with the spending. Many did during the NDP's time.

BC Boy

Campbell himself said the Canada Line, Sea to Sky and Convention Centre were necessary for the Olympics. They were all included in the bid, we wouldn't have been awarded the Olympics otherwise.

"Sorry wrong. You're not including the contribtions of total costs proided by Canadian taxpayers, ticket purchasing, sponsorships, international ticket buyers and the like."

I asked you for the number, you didn't know.

"Your own personal contribution to the Olympics is far less then 3 cents per British Columbian when the total overall collection of source money is taken into account. "

You haven't backed that assertion up with anything remotely resembling facts.

"and even then there's no means to return that to you simply because you didn't like what your taxpayer dollar were used for."

Who cares? That's your hobby horse.

Pro-Olympic nonsense

What happened to all the cheerleaders?

BC Boy time to Man up

That's just silly...you know perfectly well none of those projects would have been built absent the Olympics - to pretend there's no relationship and the costs aren't part of the same Campbell recipe is ridiculous.

In fact, ALL THE BLAME FOR ALL OF THIS IS CAMPBELL'S - the bid wasn't successful until 2003 - long after the NDP were gone.

The constant refrain of people here who aren't prepared to actually make Campbell accept the responsibility for the cock up he's made of things; the long term debt and obligations under p3 financing, the strangling of the of the forest industry and the manufacturing sector and the sell-off of provincial resources ARE NOT NDP problems - any more than the Olympic pay back is…these things, along with the ruination of public education, the funding crisis for higher education and the pathetic level of the minimum wage are.

Campbell has been steering the ship into a metaphoric Gil Island continuously for 10 years – wake up – it’s time to man the lifeboats.

THESE THINGS ARE CAMPBELL'S LEGACY TO THE FUTURE - YOU AND HE OUGHT TO MAN UP AN FACE IT.

The constant attempts at deflection are just lame and unworthy of a decent interlocutor.

A few years ago I took a youth soccer team to Europe. There was one young player in the team who simply could not shut up - for even a moment - the Campbell apologists here remind me of that young fellow...you need to start looking at the mess in the playpen NOW - because it's rising to a level that cannot be ignored any longer.

Still does not see it. Can't refund taxes what you don't like

"Campbell himself said the Canada Line, Sea to Sky and Convention Centre were necessary for the Olympics. They were all included in the bid, we wouldn't have been awarded the Olympics otherwise."

Nessesary, but again they were supplementary projects. Not part of the actual cost of the operations of the Olympics.

"Sorry wrong. You're not including the contribtions of total costs proided by Canadian taxpayers, ticket purchasing, sponsorships, international ticket buyers and the like."

I asked you for the number, you didn't know. "

Neither do you.

"Your own personal contribution to the Olympics is far less then 3 cents per British Columbian when the total overall collection of source money is taken into account. "

You haven't backed that assertion up with anything remotely resembling facts."

Have you? Consider adding up all of the BC tapayers, the annual contributions to provincial
taxes, plus annual accumulative fees which goes into general revenue, the total number of Canadian
taxpayers, total up the entire revenue stream federally from taxes and fees, examine the provincial and federal contributions.

Your own personal contribution is quite miniscule.

"and even then there's no means to return that to you simply because you didn't like what your taxpayer dollar were used for."

Who cares? That's your hobby horse.

Obviously you do, sport.

Time for spring chill and then summer thrill.

That's just silly...you know perfectly well none of those projects would have been built absent the Olympics - to pretend there's no relationship and the costs aren't part of the same Campbell recipe is ridiculous.

Wrong. They would have. The plans for the Canada Line were in the works well before the Games were awarded to Vancouver. There were studies on the alignment before the awarding of the Games in 2003.

With the Sea to Sky Highway, the highway would have
been rebuilt in stages. In many places such as north of Lions Bay and south of Britannia Beach, there were stretches that were never touched since the highway opened in 1959. Even before the Games were awarded, construction work was being done on sections north of Brackendale.

What the Games did is just accelerate the construction schedule.

"In fact, ALL THE BLAME FOR ALL OF THIS IS CAMPBELL'S - the bid wasn't successful until 2003 - long after the NDP were gone."

Partially correct. But remember it was the NDP that started the process. Without them, the Vancouver Games would not have happened.

"The constant refrain of people here who aren't prepared to actually make Campbell accept the responsibility for the cock up he's made of things; the long term debt and obligations under p3 financing, the strangling of the of the forest industry and the manufacturing sector and the sell-off of provincial resources ARE NOT NDP problems - any more than the Olympic pay back is…these things, along with the ruination of public education, the funding crisis for higher education and the pathetic level of the minimum wage are."

Kind of a long winded statement there.

"Campbell has been steering the ship into a metaphoric Gil Island continuously for 10 years – wake up – it’s time to man the lifeboats."

Not yet, the autopilot can be switched off and a new crew can easily steer the ship. We're still in
Grenville Channel about 10 NM from Sanity Point.

"THESE THINGS ARE CAMPBELL'S LEGACY TO THE FUTURE - YOU AND HE OUGHT TO MAN UP AN FACE IT."

Someone is yelling into their monitor.
"
The constant attempts at deflection are just lame and unworthy of a decent interlocutor."

If your going to get into interlocution, please do it in an enclosed room out of sight. But what ever rows your boat.

A few years ago I took a youth soccer team to Europe. There was one young player in the team who simply could not shut up - for even a moment - the Campbell apologists here remind me of that young fellow...you need to start looking at the mess in the playpen NOW - because it's rising to a level that cannot be ignored any longer."

Not me. Someone else can deal with it. April is coming up and soon it will be time to prepare for a nice relaxing warm summer!

Olympics - Convention Centre, ...

Credit where it's due:

"Vancouver trade and convention centre expansion closer
Last Updated: Thursday, February 15, 2001
CBC News

Vancouver's proposed new trade and convention centre is a tiny step closer to becoming reality.

Provincial Economic development NDP Minister Mike Farnworth says the federal government is ready to look at a new proposal for the project.

An earlier attempt to expand the convention centre failed when funding negotiations between NDP Premier Glen Clark and federal representatives collapsed.

Recently businessman Jimmy Pattison endorsed the new proposal and developer Peter Wall offered $2 million of his private funds to hold an option on the waterfront property.

Farnworth said, "For the first time the federal government has indicated they are taking the project seriously..."

Farnworth did not get a firm cash commitment from Ottawa, but he did get a promise from Environment Minister David Anderson to go to Treasury Board for some funding."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2001/02/15/bcconventionctr010214.html#ixzz0jiwq6lMr

Of course, if the federal Liberal had come through earlier the costs would have been much less, particularly since once it was started, late, the deadline was tight and it had to be completed during the recent boom when steel, cement, etc., etc., were escalating in price by the week.

BC Boy

You're falling back on old habits - they wouldn't have been built without the Olympics - PERIOD.

[PERSONAL SWIPE AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Do you even know what 'interlocutor' means?

Seriously man, give it a rest.

Re read the history/

"You're falling back on old habits - they wouldn't have been built without the Olympics - PERIOD."

Wrong. The Canada Line was already on the drawing board before Vancouver got the bid:

"From mid-1997 to mid-1998 various different routes for Vancouver-Airport/Richmond were evaluated for BRT and the preferred route and station locations were selected.

June 24, 1998, Minister in Charge of B.C.Transit, Joy McPhail announces plans to build Vancouver-Richmond ALRT. "The new line would link Richmond city centre, the airport and Downtown Vancouver—probably running north-south through Vancouver along the Cambie Street corridor

"For once in your on line life try to be a little objective."

For once in your life, don't get personal comments into the conversation and more importantly read the historical facts.

yes, and you're not very good at it.

"Seriously man, give it a rest."

Yes it is someone who explains the views of a government, and quite frankly, you're not very good at it. Not even close.

Are you trying for a research assistant job with the NDP Caucus?

Doesn't matter what drawing boards it was on

It wouldn't have been built when it was except for the Olympics... and certainly NOT THE WAY IT WAS BUILT.

Where have you been for the last 10 years, on Mars?

Wrong -

And it's clear you rely on wikipedia - which is usually a BIG mistake.

It certainly is in this case:
interlocutor
in·ter·loc·u·tor
 
–noun
1.
a person who takes part in a conversation or dialogue.

2.
the man in the middle of the line of performers in a minstrel troupe, who acts as the announcer and banters with the end men.

3.
a person who questions; interrogator.

BC Boy...

Ya forgot to mention the June, 2001 MoT report on the existing corridor upgrades/alternate route analysis for the Sea to Sky Highway commissioned by the NDP in preparation for the upgrades.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/seatosky/reports/Highway99_Corridor_Improvements.pdf

Now it's time to cue Badluck Shleprock ....

Would have been done anyway.

"It wouldn't have been built when it was except for the Olympics... and certainly NOT THE WAY IT WAS BUILT."

Incorrect. As mentioned it was on the design books
even before Vancouver won the bid, and would have gone ahead if Vancouver did not win the bid, but most likely would be in the middle of construction
right now. The 99B Line (Richmond/Downtown) was fast reaching capacity. The line was part of a larger regional transportation plan set in the mid 1990's as was the Evergreen Line.

and nothing wrong with the way it was built, certainly not from a ridership prespective. It is heavily used, even to/from the airport.

Wonder what you might have done if the NDP was in
pwoer druing 2005 / 10 when these projects were
underway? Still squeal against them?

End of story.

Where have you been for the last 10 years, on Mars?"

Obviously you've been out of reality for the past 10 years (since the NDP lost power, and magicially
will be in favour of everything the NDP does if by chance they return to being government, so what is new there?

The NDP was notorious for not keeping up with infrastructure (save for the M-Line) in the Lower Mainland, and their neglect of BC Ferries is legendary, we're still paying for those 10 years when there was no large vessel replacement project happening.

But getting away from that, what exactly did Chris Shaw and his ORN actully accomplish in a positive way for the homeless other than writing a submission to the Tyee to keep his name out there?

Sea to Sky goes back

"Ya forgot to mention the June, 2001 MoT report on the existing corridor upgrades/alternate route analysis for the Sea to Sky Highway commissioned by the NDP in preparation for the upgrades."

Not bad. That report would have been in several months in preparation, even though it has a June 2001 publised date. But the report does make mention of previous analysis of the route going way back to 1983 (including alternatives through Indian Arm). The road has been prone to slides and
previously washouts, so there was much research done on how to improve access to the Interior via Squamish/Whistler (major reason why the Duffy Lake Road was completed in the earlt 1980's as was some
improvements on Hwy 99).

The highway was improved in stages 1980s - 2000s in patchwork. In fact even many of the replacement bridges on the route (Sunset Beach, Lions Bay, etc to replace the wooden 1959 crossings) were deliberately designed to accomodate a future 4 lane highway, when finished in the late 1970's to early 1980's,

Interlocutor - A fancy label for a fine whine

"It certainly is in this case:
interlocutor
in·ter·loc·u·tor"

A fancy label for a fine vintage and aged BC whine.

Design books have dick all to do with it

The decision to build the line and the financing were functions of the awarding of the Olympics. The type of construction and the financing were all chosen under Campbell and what 'plans' may have been on anyone's books are entirely irrelevant.
Campbell and his government are the ones on trial here - not a government that hasn't been a government for more than ten years.

Anyone who thinks any of these projects would have gone ahead in the way they [EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

By the way .Luke.

[EDITED FOR ASSUMING KNOWLEDGE OF ANOTHER COMMENTER'S IDENTITY. -MODERATOR.]

Would have been done anyway.

"The decision to build the line and the financing were functions of the awarding of the Olympics. "

Functions of, but not specific to the operating costs and construction costs of Olympic events, and venues. One can build associated works, but those associated works are not inclusive to the actual event itself. The two are quite different.

it was stated by the IOC that the travel times on the Sea to Sky Highway was inadequate, so the result was moving ahead design work on highway improvements that would have been done over a longer period of time anyway.

Again, with the Canada Line and the Sea to Sky Highway, those would have gone ahead anyway. Both were in the design stages before the bid was won in 2003.

"The type of construction and the financing were all chosen under Campbell and what 'plans' may have been on anyone's books are entirely irrelevant."

Um, no. The type of construction for the Sea to Sky
was determined by highway engineering based on available funding for the project, and the configuration of the Canada Line was first establised by RAV. None were directly attributed to
Gordon Campbell directly. He personally did not decide what the Canada Line would look like, and he personally did not state as to what the Sea to Sky Highway should be.

Campbell and his government are the ones on trial here - not a government that hasn't been a government for more than ten years.

There is no trial regarding the BC Government when it comes to the Olympics and associated works developed in any BC Courts.

Was there a government that hadn't been a government between 1991 and 2000? Seems during that time there were four Premiers and one fudgit budget, and one project initiative that didn't work out.

Now then, let's take this back a bit shall we?
Glen Clark and the Fastcats. Who exactly was responsible for the overall design? It was not Clark himself, but rather BC Ferries and CFI which chose the final design configuration.

"Anyone who thinks any of these projects would have gone ahead in the way they did and incurred the public debt associated with them without Campbell and the Olympics is clearly an apologist for larceny and lies and living on another planet."

As is anyone who apologist for the FastCats? The overdesign (and yet incomplete at the time it was finished) of the Inland Island Highway?

If this is true, then enter Joy McPhail (Minister Responsible for BC Transit) who was working to get the then Richmond/Vancouver line started.

Wrong again

There were other ways to get the athletes and hangers on to Whistler that didn't involve the kind of highway contract gifts to members of the Road Builders Association of BC - Gordo started giving out gold medals long before February of 2010...perhaps you've forgotten?

But, don't take my word for it - maybe forget about the NDP for five minutes and read this - it's far from the only thing available that pulls the scab off the Olympic lie:

http://www.straight.com/article-93176/developers-are-the-games-real-winners

So how would have the athletes and hangers get to Whistler?

"There were other ways to get the athletes and hangers on to Whistler that didn't involve the kind of highway contract gifts to members of the Road Builders Association of BC - Gordo started giving out gold medals long before February of 2010...perhaps you've forgotten?"

There were two other ways. Rail and ferries, and both were not logistically viable. Both were explored, but the limitations of rail ruled that out (40 km/h average speed and there's only one railway track between Park Royal and Squamish, and from Squamish to Whistler save for siding.

Ferries would be a bit more flexible, but again it comes back to an 16 to 18 knot average speed and there would still need to be land transportion for the remaining distance to Whistler and that would require interchange from ferry to bus (time consuming).

The same scenario (highway) would still happen if the NDP had gone through 2001, 2005 made it to 2009, or even continued on to 2013.

The Roadbuilders are an industry representative/ advocacy group, they don't have any say on which projects get built and which don't.

You also seem to forget that for the most part many were pleased with the way the Olympics turned out overall.

Despite Chris' wailing, poverty would still exist even if the NDP was government at the current time,
and the NDP would still have the Olympics go ahead simply because they were supportive of it before the BC Liberal government was.

BC Boy...

You are indeed correct about the Sea to Sky Hwy.

And it's best to again re-iterate amny points that you have stated.

The Horseshoe Bay to Squamish section was completed in 1958. Alot of work was spent upgrading the section from Squamish north to Whistler during the 1970's including blasting and re-alignments.

The last upgrade (prior to the major works) was completed over 6 years ago through the Cheakamus Canyon, which essentially was a dangerous paved- over logging road with narrow lanes, poor sight lines, no shoulders and poor geometry. Potential head-on collision city.

The HSB to Squamish section was a sub-standard 1950's 2-lane design with poor geometry and sight-lines. Traffic counts are about 14,000/day along this section. Once traffic counts hit 10,000/day highway engineers begin to look at twinning/4-laning.

During the 1980's, many of the original 2-lane wooden trestles were replaced with 4-lane concrete clear-spans along the HSB to Squamish corridor in anticipation of future twinning as well as for safety reasons.

The M-Creek Bridge and Charles Creek disasters were the impetus for these bridge replacements as well as $hundreds of millions$ spent on concrete debris flow structures.

The NDP government during the 1990's commissioned several reports on upgrading the corridor for safety, capacity, and reliability.

Traffic "ponding" was a serious concern in that, at times, operating speeds could drop to as low as 50 km/hr, resulting in increased driver frustration.

The Olympics were the catalyst to improve the corridor (which would have been done within the decade in any event).

MoT decided to upon the "cheap" option, which was an 80 km/hour design standard with twinning only along some sections between HSB and Squamish at a capital cost of $660 million.

A full 4-lane freeway from HSB to Squamish with a 100 km/hr design standard (viaducts/tunnels/bridges/interchanges/blasting) would have alone come in at a capital cost of $1 - 2 billion along that terrain, notwithstanding the upgrades to the Squamish to Whistler section.

For comparison's sake, the HSB to Whistler upgrades, with a capital cost of $660 million over ~105 km, averages out to $6.3 million/km over the entire length of the corridor.

Compare that to the Kicking Horse Canyon upgrades along Hwy 1 in the boonies east of Golden, which has an AADT of 5,000 and an SADT of 10,000.

$1 billion over 25 km, which equates to $40 million/km (as opposed to $6.3 million/km for the SKS).

In any event, the SKS highway upgrades would have been completed with or without the Olympics as the corridor provides for commuting/commercial/and recreational needs and traffic counts will continue to grow, esp. with the substantial "decrease" in travel times.

At least you seem to be able to grasp these issues.

Rail

Period - like access to most ski hills in Europe - places where you don't have to be part of the West Vancouver SUV mafia to get to the mountains.

Of course, Vancouver is so stupidly fascinated by the automobile that no one has the beans to realize we are hopelessly backward in this province.

[PERSONAL COMMENT ASSUMING KNOWLEDGE OF ANOTHER'S IDENTITY REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

BC Boy

It has also accumulated the biggest and most unsustainable mountain of debt. To which the drunken party referenced above has been a huge contributor.

Drunken party? Fine Whines?

"It has also accumulated the biggest and most unsustainable mountain of debt. To which the drunken party referenced above has been a huge contributor"

A little worn in the pavement there, [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

As for the Europeans, railways have been the main
means of transportation, owing to the much higher cost of vehicular transportation than here.

But it was noted during the bid processfor 2010 that Innsbruck, Austria (a bid city in competition with Vancouver) had logistical concerns with the route from that city to the ski areas, that was equivalent to the then existant Sea to Sky Highway in terms of travel time, using an established federal highway. The distance from the city area to the ski area was about the same in Innsbruck as it was in Vancouver.

As far as drnken party goes, just how long is this drunken fest going to go on? the NDP was caught with the CHS, but that aspect didn't last as long as the perpetual "drunk fest". Again, the people had the decision on Campbell and his encounter with Maui's Hawaii Five O in 2005, and decided he was worthy of another term. The NDP didn't make it to government in 2005, and 2009 when they easily could have, so what does that tell you?

Tells me that the NDP didn't have much to offer in terms of alternatives, other than being a collection of fine whines.

Luke on the road

Review of the time time, M-Creek bridge, AADTs.

Not bad. Not bad at all. Did the homework.

five political lawn signs out of five for that one.

Commonwealth

You clearly know nothing about that either.

It tells me most BC people are stupid

A measure of intelligence?

"You clearly know nothing about that either. "

Alot more than the previous poster does, from the
engineering and project aspects.

"It tells me most BC people are stupid"

and the previous poster is one that all intelligence should be measured or achieve for?

not likely.

Yes, a measure of intelligence

The point about the Commonwealth Holding Society has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the NDP government - furthermore, that whole episode was little more than another disinformation campaign by the Campbell Liberals and amounted in the end - to taking advantage of one man. I could explain it to you with evidence but it's not worth my time. As I already said, you're a dishonest and irresponsible interlocutor and it's impossible to have a rational discussion with you. Time and time again the same thing happens – you’re simply not worth the effort.

As for the remark about intelligence...perhaps you're a very wealth man - if so, it's entirely rational for you to support the BCLIBERALS - they're your kind of government.

The vast majority of British Columbians are not wealthy and will never be - for them, a vote for Gordon Campbell is a stupid action - it works against their own self-interest.

Therefore, since we have elected 3 consecutive bad governments - regimes which rule for the few and not for the many - the people of BC are, by definition - STUPID.

BC Bouy

"Nessesary, but again they were supplementary projects. Not part of the actual cost of the operations of the Olympics."

Sorry snookums, but they were a part of the Olympics or they wouldn't have been necessary.

"I asked you for the number, you didn't know.

Neither do you."

What a comeback, the thing is sunshine, you want to use a number you don't know.

"You haven't backed that assertion up with anything remotely resembling facts."

"Have you?"

Have I what? Backed up your assertion? Please explain why I would back up your assertion. Since this will be fun you can even use all the crayons in your box.

"Who cares? That's your hobby horse.

"Obviously you do, sport."

Obviously not, poodle.

CHS Did in a way

The point about the Commonwealth Holding Society has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the NDP government

Um in way it did. Since CHS money was sent to the NDP headquarters and from there said money ended up in riding campaigns. That was documented in the money trail, so therefore any NDPer elected (Oppositon or Government) with a campaign of infustion of money from the headquarters was in some ways elected with CHS money creamed off by D. Stupich. That's a fact.

"- furthermore, that whole episode was little more than another disinformation campaign by the Campbell Liberals and amounted in the end - to taking advantage of one man."

Um, no. The CHS was first brought forward by a whistleblower in Nanaimo within the CHS itself. There was never any attribution that the CHS incident was manifested by the Campbell Liberals, unless there is citation of that fact.

"I could explain it to you with evidence but it's not worth my time."

No need.

"As I already said, you're a dishonest and irresponsible interlocutor and it's impossible to have a rational discussion with you. Time and time again the same thing happens – you’re simply not worth the effort."

So why the constant responses. This is the third or fourth time you have responded despite previously clearly stating that you would not

"As for the remark about intelligence...perhaps you're a very wealth man - if so, it's entirely rational for you to support the BCLIBERALS - they're your kind of government."

Being wealthy has nothing to do with it. There are
a few well off people who support the NDP.

"The vast majority of British Columbians are not wealthy and will never be - for them, a vote for Gordon Campbell is a stupid action - it works against their own self-interest."

So does voting for the NDP work for their self-interest? The small store owner who makes a comfy but not wealthy income? The teacher? Truck driver?
A lawyer? (remember all of these occupations have BC Liberal supporters). You're categorising the BC Liberals as only being for the very well off, which is not correct. I know many who aren't all that wealth who support the Liberals, but others who are well off have supported the NDP in the past. It depends on what you want from goverment, not what you make each year.

"Therefore, since we have elected 3 consecutive bad governments - regimes which rule for the few and not for the many - the people of BC are, by definition - STUPID."

So what about those consective governments from 1991 to 2001? Are BC people STUPID with electing those too??

NHS

I recall the Liberals milking municipalities for money. Money that would normally go to services that people need.

There's also a little scheme called BC Rail that's before the courts. Liberal party people all over that.

I'm not surprised however, that Liberal camp followers can remember what an operative in the NDP did 20 years ago but can't recall what the Liberal party has been up to in the last 9.

Nope still wrong

But, as I said, I'm a busy guy - I haven't got the time to try and 'educate' you and you seem to be a pretty slow learner. Suffice to say the CHS was a media fanned story initiated by Gordon Campbell - it had most of the same elements as the Clark/Pelarinos affair and, on balance, Stupich wasn't guilty of anything - except being a victim of Campbell's greed and lust for power. Had Stupich not had health issues, he'd have won the case just like Clark did because there was sweet bugger all to it.

I spent a good deal of time doing research into the facts of the case - but, in the end, it clearly had dick all to do with the Harcourt Government.

That, was my point, the BCLIBERALS govern for the rich while the working middle class and poor people who vote for them are stupid to do so.

Why, because the BC Liberals will never do anything but help the folks they identify with - trust me sunshine - that's not the small businessman.

The NDP has, give or take, about the same amount of support from generation to generation - from time to time they manage to get a government - less than 20% of the time since the last war.

Nothing much seems to change and it won't until a majority of people recognize what their own interests actually are.

A little too busy?

"But, as I said, I'm a busy guy - I haven't got the time to try and 'educate' you and you seem to
be a pretty slow learner."

Careful there. The previous poster is getting a bit personal, and I would add the word arrogant into the equation.

"Suffice to say the CHS was a media fanned story initiated by Gordon Campbell - it had most of the same elements as the Clark/Pelarinos affair and, on balance, Stupich wasn't guilty of anything - except being a victim of Campbell's greed and lust for power. Had Stupich not had health issues, he'd have won the case just like Clark did because there was sweet bugger all to it."

Wrong. Review the case and the events leading to it. It was brought forward by an insider to the CHS in Nanaimo. Stupich's health issues were not
a factor whether he was found guilty or not guilty.

"I spent a good deal of time doing research into the facts of the case - but, in the end, it clearly had dick all to do with the Harcourt Government."

It did, simply because Harcourt was leader from his
becoming leader in c. 1988 through to his resignation, but the CHS activity goes back further than that. As leader of a party, he had a fudiciary duty to ensure that such poaching of funds did not occur, but they did, and go back to Dave Barrett's days.

"That, was my point, the BCLIBERALS govern for the rich while the working middle class and poor people who vote for them are stupid to do so."

So how does this relate to (a) the CHS, and (b)
Chris Shaw? I gather the previous poster is not
an expert as to which party the poor and the working middle class should or should not vote for.

"Why, because the BC Liberals will never do anything but help the folks they identify with - trust me sunshine - that's not the small businessman."

Oh, and does the NDP help exclusively the poor and not anyone else, such as labour? The NDP has been
less than adequate in developing economic dyanamics
thay foster small business growth, even though Harcourt made reference to "the business cycle".

"The NDP has, give or take, about the same amount of support from generation to generation - from time to time they manage to get a government - less than 20% of the time since the last war."

and what does that tell you?

"Nothing much seems to change and it won't until a majority of people recognize what their own interests actually are."

and this has to be within the confines of the NDP does it?

I know where the case CAME from

I also know it was a fucking tempest in a teapot and not an attempt by anyone to 'steal' or poach anything. If you really knew about it you'd KNOW the same thing....As for fiduciary duty, give me a break, Harcourt has no fiduciary duty whatsoever in the matter. Nor did David Barrett or the other leaders of the Party.

It was a blown up issue from the time Campbell got a hold of it and started setting his hair on fire about it in the press. If the press had done one-tenth of the time on that issue that they spent on Clarks's deck the whole thing would have been dismissed with no charges whatsoever.

Coming from someone who apparently thinks it's fine for his 'leader' to drink and drive I'm not surprised you can't understand the distinction.

It tells me the majority of British Columbians are utterly stupid to continue doing the same foolish thing thinking there will be a different outcome next time..

And, don't blame the NDP for the stupidity of the voters - any population that could re-elect someone like Kevin Kreuger to a position with more responsibility than flea picker in a kennel and then not ride him out of town on a rail for his comments in the last week is too dull to know they've been cutting their own nose off to spite their face for most of the last 60 years.

I will say one thing though BC Buoy - you got the government you deserved.

Oh and by the way

What the hell is 'dyanamics'?

Don't tell me you're a follower of L.Ron Hubbard are you?

Still needs to see the big picture.

"I also know it was a fucking tempest in a teapot and not an attempt by anyone to 'steal' or poach anything. "

Um, Stupich was found guilty of embezzling funds
from the NCHS to the NDP in Provincial Court.

"If you really knew about it you'd KNOW the same thing....As for fiduciary duty, give me a break, Harcourt has no fiduciary duty whatsoever in the matter."

He did, and he himself said it was the reason for
his resigning from the leadership. Any leader is
responsible for the conduct of his/her party, including any subsets. However, that same leader
carries additional responsibilities as either Opposition Leader or Premier.

"Nor did David Barrett or the other leaders of the Party."

The scheme was going on since the mid 1950's, so
Barrett as leader from c.1968 to c. 1985 also had
a duty to ensure things were above the board. But
he had an out, as no one was coming foward during that time to launch a complaint about how the funds were handled.

"It was a blown up issue from the time Campbell got a hold of it and started setting his hair on fire about it in the press."

Um, no. It was an insider that first brought the issue to the attention of the media, it was not
Campbell.

"If the press had done one-tenth of the time on that issue that they spent on Clarks's deck the whole thing would have been dismissed with no charges whatsoever. "

Different circumstances.

"Coming from someone who apparently thinks it's fine for his 'leader' to drink and drive I'm not surprised you can't understand the distinction."

Um, wait a minute there. I never ever said it was "fine" for Campbell to drink and drive, ever.

"And, don't blame the NDP for the stupidity of the voters - any population that could re-elect someone like Kevin Kreuger to a position with more responsibility than flea picker in a kennel and then not ride him out of town on a rail for his comments in the last week is too dull to know they've been cutting their own nose off to spite their face for most of the last 60 years."

Well, within that 60 year span, then that would include the NDP (1972-1975, and 1991-2001), wouldn't it?

"I will say one thing though BC Buoy - you got the government you deserved."

Seems to bother the previous poster than it does me.

I would suggest to the previous poster that he tone down the language, and engage himself in chocolate over the Easter weekend as a cure for his tension.

Obviously _ it does bother me.

You're apparently happy with what happened the other 47 years - why wouldn't you be?

As I said before, you're obviously a rich man (the alternative is that you're stupid) - you like tax breaks and get out of jail free cards - why am I not surprised? You seem satisfied you can 'get out of government' whatever you need - why WOULD you support the NDP? As I said before it's simply a matter of self-interest.

I happen to be more concerned with the 80% of the population you and your kind are content to screw over continuously. Oh and the "previous poster" is pretty obvious, isn't he? In fact, he apparently doesn't have the wit to even use his interlocutor's name.

Furthermore, someone who could read might actually comprehend what was being said and been able to respond without constantly re-posting my words. Too tough for you to keep a thought in your mind that long or are you just aiming to take up a lot of space?

Kindly keep your advice, your ‘personal’ remarks and your chocolate to yourself; furthermore, I'll use language that's appropriate to the occasion and the company.

As Frank mentioned to me the other day, 'BC Boy has been around Tyee for quite awhile - but he takes long breaks from posting - and he hasn't gotten any smarter since his last appearance.'

BC Boy...

Remember the good ol' 1990's?

The Libs had up to a 50% spread in their favour and the NDP was battling for second place with Reform.

And the people finally had their say with a 77 - 2 historical wallop.

Again, once Dianne Watts or Carole Taylor takes over the Lib helm from Gordo another political dynamic will take hold - the unstoppable "speeding freight-train effect" as Will McMartin elequently once said.

But there will always be dimwits that will still follow a dimwit such as Carole James. Just a fact of life. :D

Again, re-read what was written.

"You're apparently happy with what happened the other 47 years - why wouldn't you be?"

Not exactly 100%.

As I said before, you're obviously a rich man (the alternative is that you're stupid)

The two are not comparable aspects. The previous
poster is also approaching the line in personal
retorts.

- you like tax breaks and get out of jail free cards - why am I not surprised?

So who wouldn't? It's not much more than the
previous poster making political contributions to the NDP and receiving a tax receipt that can be credited to the taxes payable in that year.

"You seem satisfied you can 'get out of government' whatever you need - why WOULD you support the NDP? As I said before it's simply a matter of self-interest."

It's also a matter of which party can better manage the economy and foster economic growth thereby providing the environment for employment in the private sector.

"I happen to be more concerned with the 80% of the population you and your kind are content to screw over continuously."

And this 80% of the population is whom? There are
different compositions of the population.

"Oh and the "previous poster" is pretty obvious, isn't he? In fact, he apparently doesn't have the wit to even use his interlocutor's name."

the label "previous poster" is reference enough.

"Furthermore, someone who could read might actually comprehend what was being said and been able to respond without constantly re-posting my words."

To cite references in an arguement. Nothing wrong with that. It's done in newsgroups.

"Too tough for you to keep a thought in your mind that long or are you just aiming to take up a lot of space?"

Again, the previous poster is approaching the line in personal retorts.

"Kindly keep your advice, your ‘personal’ remarks and your chocolate to yourself; furthermore, I'll use language that's appropriate to the occasion and the company."

One wonders who the previous poster is to set rules of debate engagement.

"As Frank mentioned to me the other day, 'BC Boy has been around Tyee for quite awhile - but he takes long breaks from posting - and he hasn't gotten any smarter since his last appearance."

Seems that Frank and the previous poster have a
sense of "community" within opinion strips of The Tyee. Is this that important?

Another post from Luke Skywalker aka .Luke.

Someone who was banned from posting at Tyee previously for his offensive and personal character assassination of Rod Smelser.

This guy has no pride, no sense of honour and no character.

The fact he's even willing to show his face here again after what he was involved in says all anyone needs to know about him.

But, sadly, it also says a great deal about the Tyee itself - and it's not good.

The Tyee's policies are arbitrary and inconsistent.

I've brought Luke Skywalker's (.Luke.) return to the attention of the editors - who haven't even had the courtesy to reply. Not that they could have been ignorant of his return.

A place which hasn't the courage to enforce its own rules and stand by its decisions and which has let this guy return here is in serious danger of becoming a joke.

A bad joke.

Yep, how true

Certainly won't accuse you, BC Boy, of having any sense of community.

And, I don't even have to bother

Refuting the utterly false contention that the BCLiberals are good economic managers.

gwest

You better read comment the Tyee guidelines again and the editor's/moderator's comments above in your posts.

Thank you Moderators

Much appreciated.

However

If I actually 'knew' what sort of person was behind these two names I'd contact him directly to tell him what I think of him - I wouldn't smear him the way he has done to Rod Smelser.

I don't know who he is. I idea that I do is offensive in itself.

I'd better read the guidelines!

Coming from you, that's pretty funny.

GWest

Those edits don't make any sense do they?

I don't recall reading you knowing Luke's identity.

Naw, Frank

Luke just posted them in from above - and you're right, they don't make any sense - As I said, if I knew 'who' the SOB was I'd out him the same way he did to Rod Smelser.