snrggg,,,

hey Tyee! How about at least another cup of coffee if you won't spring for an edit function? And NO, Preview just doesn't cut it.

Say what jwstewart?

Are you reading any of this or do you just support anything these Tax and Spend Liberals do?

keep watching

next they're going to try (again) to ban imports of those gas-sipping, used Japanese micro-vans, probably on phonied-up "evidence" of right-hand drive being "dangerous". That and a new AirScare to condemn anything more than a year old off the road. As well they'll declare that anyone selling more than one car in a life time must have a dealer's licence.

Socred car salesmen scum they came from, and remain.

What kind of businesses Colin?

...small business owners who need to get vehicles valued over $55,000 to undertake their businesses.

Please, Mr. Hansen, lets see a list of small business folks who 'need' a $55,000 vehicle to run their operations.

This is just plain bullshit unless Hansen's friends are operating high-end prostitution outfits.

There are vehicles of every type and manufacturer which will meet ANY small business needs for a good deal less than $55,000.

Hansen and his colleagues have clearly decided that good practice and consistency mean nothing whatever to them. All they care about is rewarding their friends - this has, for some of us, always seemed to be the case. For a time the Campbell government took pains to create the impression that something else was the case - apparently that period is over and they've decided to stop pretending any longer.

This could be a lot of fun - if only we had an independent and responsible press and an opposition that wasn't afraid to start screaming OUTSIDE as well as inside the legislature.

Surprised?

Would byou like to buy my car; we'll say for $1000 to save on taxes!

The Liberals are actually pirates!

why even bother with these whiners? But protecting curbers?

Why even bother with GW and The Whiners?

Face facts, the curbers are not dealers. The guy with two or three cars in the yard with cheaply made For Sale signs isn't going to be the same as a car dealer, so why not even the field?

One has to really wonder why people whine against car dealers, and business when in the past the NDP favoured labour.

amd one wouldn't get much of a long haul truck for $55,000. You could get a heap of a city haul truck
for that, but for real owner operator long haul,
a leased new rig would do.

But keep on whining folks. It's going to be a long way ahead to 2013. Pace yourself and don't get worked up about everything you read here in The Tyee.

and work off your frustration by getting involved
with the anti-HST signature drive. The excercise
will do you good, and will get your fat ass off the chair and away from the computer.

Hey BC Boy, if you think the

Hey BC Boy, if you think the Labour Laws were favourable to the workers here in BC during the NDP days, go and work in Europe for awhile and get educated. The farm workers legislation here in BC is legalized slavery. Your above statement makes you look like an idiot.

hey bc "boy"

try reading for comprehension...I said that long haul trucks were an exception to the under $55K rule. Oh, wait...after reading the rest of your post, it looks like comprehension isn't your strong suit, poor dear.

It constantly amuses me how some posters think that wussy recycled personal insults actually substitute for facts in their rebuttals. I mean "fat" and "whining"? Come on. *yawn* If you can't do better than that, why bother?

Van Isle Farms

"Hey BC Boy, if you think the Labour Laws were favourable to the workers here in BC during the NDP days, go and work in Europe for awhile and get educated."

No need, but if you want to pay for my trip, I'd
love to go Switzerland for a few weeks, you pay for the hotels and car rental.

"The farm workers legislation here in BC is legalized slavery. Your above statement makes you look like an idiot."

Aside from the name label, go to the NDP and cry about it. The NDP has wailed on the topic for decades and when they were in government, never corrected the problems.

oh and Rhea darling.. good luck sweetie.

And Rhea, if you're out there.

Good luck on the canvassers, sweetheart. You'll need to collect 10% of the registered voters' signatures in your riding within 90 days, plus I'd say 10% to 15% more. Hope the quality of your organising is better than your whining, dear.

Remember cupcake, it's 10% in each and every riding, minimum. Not 5% in one riding, 5% in another and 20% in the third, but 10% in each and every one, minimum. All registered voters.

Within 90 days.

My guess you won't be able to do it.

Even if it is successful, it doesn't mean an automatic cancellation of the HST legislation.

Might be better off curbing that 72 Volkswagen sitting on Grand Blvd.

Be sure to be honest with the value and write it in on the transfer sheet. The buyer pays the HST
on it.

Good luck.

and a biased article? Sure it is

Talk about a biased article. Bill Tieleman, one of the major players in the anti-HST drive, former
operative with the Glen Cark NDP government.

No wonder this article of his is bent to the left.

and the Tyee is supposed to be "independent"? Read better stuff from Andrew The Tyee Journalist.

and no sense in wailing about unshaven curbers, folks. They aren't your friends. Most are shady and
a person has to be a fool to deal with them, if they don't do the homework first regarding the seller and the vehicle.

If you can't afford the tax on the sale, you can't afford the vehicle.

Forget the under the table junk, and be honest if you're selling. You're selling your vehicle at a profit and want to keep your good word. If you go under the table, some unsavory character is going to answer your ad.

But its your choice.

Going to be a long slog until 2013. Keep the whining in check.

and the curbers aren't exactly honest either

"Yep, we know this government's pedigree all too well, and that of its shills as well."

Same sort of thing happened no doubt during the NDP's time, so no big deal there.

Actually looked at a private sale a few years ago,
but the private seller's story didn't add up. No
sale there.

Dishonest dealerships existed during the NDP times
and will still be there if the NDP is as government next time.

A long haul for the whiners until 2013, and even then, they will have to whine against the NDP because the NDP isn't about to repeal the HST.

Posting on the Tyee...

...should require a skill's testing question.

Should require continuation

"...should require a skill's testing question."

which the previous poster would fail for sure.

It's "skill testing question" as in reference to
one item of interest.

not " skill's testing question" which is possessive. A skill is learned. A skill can't own anything thing.

:)

:) http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

overkill? nahh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Va9ull44yw

I hope everyone who voted

I hope everyone who voted for Gordo and his gang of misfits is hiding their faces in shame. Shame on anyone who voted for that piece of you know what..

Yammer

Ron, I'd like a little more from my taxes than the comfort that at least they're not going to pay for ICBM's.

Why BC Boy loves the new budget

He worked on a Liberal MLA's campaign last May so of course he'd defend it any way possible.

Doesn't matter if he loves being screwed ...

...it is the constant posts one has to wade through to get a sense of the debate. There should be a skills testing question to eliminate the juvenile mentality. Misspelling is infinitely more tolerable than the lack of thought.

This article by Bill Tielmann is dead on. I've had coffee with former business owners who are not only going to sign the petition but will be going to the anti HST rally. It is all an accumulation of issues having to do with who's hand is in your wallet every time you turn around.

"the best trick the devil

"the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

The best trick the SocLiberals ever pulled was convincing working people their vote didn't matter.

Thanks Re: HST ?

Thanks Adam M.
I still feel the kids of BC should have the right to vote against the HST.
Guess it will be a good lesson to never vote for the BC liberals in the future...
Campbell the guy who stole our kids lunch money, what a bully!

learn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

Car dealers and Campbell....

My opinion......car dealers, government, high end car buyers = ORGANIZED CRIME, we are #1 in the world for organized crime per capita....courtesy of the felon Campbell and his B.C. Liberal mob.

TAKIE...

PAB ALIVE AND WELL.

G West

Where do you suggest the opposition goes to be heard OUTSIDE of the legislature?

only if they are on the voters list in their riding

"Can kids sign the HST Petition?
There are thousands of kids under 19 that work and are about to pay the HST, just like everyone else.
Their vote against the HST should count!"

Only if they are registered voters in the riding they live in. Others can sign the official petition, but if they are not registered voters, their signatures
will not count. Period.

Where does the Opposition go? The NDP of course

"Where do you suggest the opposition goes to be heard OUTSIDE of the legislature?"

How about the next NDP policy convention. That's the more sensible place and is the place and time where any differenes are going to be made.

Contributors to the The Tyee can start with convincing the NDP to repeal the HST 100% if they
somehow win government in 2013.

Organized crime

In my humble opinion our governance offers nothing more than a template for organized crime. Our politicians set the examples and the gangs just emulate them. The only difference is that our governing party carries out their malfeasance without the use of guns.

I sorry? They aren't using

I sorry? They aren't using guns? I am quite sure I saw a machine gun on the streets of Vancouver during the last circus. It was carried by an armoured soldier type with the clear message that it would be used on the people there if they did not submit. This government is using guns and using them via police that have lost all legitimacy. The poor and insane have been summarily executed in the streets and the legal process corrupted at the highest levels. This is only possible by the display and use of arms. Oh yes, they are using guns.

nutsnbolts

It's a very good question.

No one listens to the debates in the legislature; the bought and paid for media don't actually cover those debates - therefore the opposition (and by that I mean everyone who disagrees with the sell off and rape of this province) has to find another way to make the necessary impression on the general public.

Dave Barrett used to do it by getting himself thrown out of the legislature - I'm not convinced even that would work with jaded scribes like Baldrey and Palmer and facile mouthpieces like Bill Good.

Marches and rallies are effective but their impact is muted because most people don't actually 'watch' the news or read newspapers much anymore and the so-called news media don't actually report about such things, they merely dismiss and diminish them.

Still, somehow or other the message must get out there or this province is lost - another four years of government which is neither democratic or representative will about do it for B.C.

The first real opportunity is the province wide initiative. There is NO Way that Campbell could ignore a successful initiative campaign on the HST - now's the time to volunteer and get involved in this symbolic rejection of the ways in which Gordon Campbell has stolen this province from the people and given it to his friends...

a General Strike would be a

a General Strike would be a good first step

It ain't a trick -

"The best trick the SocLiberals ever pulled was convincing working people their vote didn't matter."

It's right out of the textbook:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/376000.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative

If there is 'no alternative', our vote doesn't matter, obviously, and we can comfortably slide right into being run by the corporations. Follow this link and see that it has always been with us:

http://www.gangsofamerica.com/gangsofamerica.pdf

It is really a question of guarding the gate - or not. Can we be bothered? We have had discussions about how the education our kids are handed in public schools today serves to effectively beat the stuffing out of them. If we want something that can belong to us and not to the hegemons, we must get proactive, not just on the political front, but on several others as well, as in education and other fundamental aspects of the culture. 'The others' have all their efforts go hand in hand. We must manage the same. General strike sounds good, but it is a trap. Why? because it is exactly what 'they' expect us to do. We will not win the day by being so predictable. I have said it before, but it is so unobtrusive and humble a concept that people think it has no smack in it: Darning a pair of socks instead of tossing them and buying a new pair (not to mention knitting your own) is today a more subversive act than standing in front of parliament and throwing shoes and yelling 'eat the rich', or mounting a general strike. didn't anyone see and understand the Matrix? It's about introducing something that was never in the program before!

bollocks. A General Strike

bollocks. A General Strike is the last and primary power the people have. It is total abdication to walk away from the responsibility to exercise it. The question must be settled: Whose place is this anyway?

I for one am not leaving my share to the greedy bullies.

I think

You groosly underrate 'the people'. I believe in building a new model that mekes the old one obsolete. Isn't that called 'evolution'?

typo-fixes

I think
You grossly underrate 'the people'. I believe in building a new model that makes the old one obsolete. Isn't that called 'evolution'?

Sorry! (But I'm not apologizing for the viewpoint!)

HST initiative? Good Luck in getting that to finish right

"The first real opportunity is the province wide initiative. There is NO Way that Campbell could ignore a successful initiative campaign on the HST - now's the time to volunteer and get involved in this symbolic rejection of the ways in which Gordon Campbell has stolen this province from the people and given it to his friends"

The HST initiative? Good luck in getting that to happen. The legislation will be passed before the anti-HST signature drive is validated and goes to the next step.

Falcon headed up the "Have You had Enough Yet" protest movement, and that didn't get anywhere
except bolster his self-promoting profile.

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Go on.. get goin.

and remember it is registered voters only. Not just anyone you see on the street that likes how you smell.

They aren't going to let you

They aren't going to let you walk away from your place in their economic machine, Dorothy. Many have tried (and a few make it) but as soon as it threatens their cheap labour pool and tax base, laws are passed and examples made. On top of which, if you happen to have something they want, they just come and take it.

Take Weibo Ludwig for example. I find him and his beliefs personally repellent, but he did try to run off to create his own little reality isntead of troubling others. Made the mistake of being too close to some natural gas and look what happened.

Circular argument

"They aren't going to let you"

This kind of leads right back to the 'no alternative' postulate.

If you once and for all decide that you aren't going to live within the confines of what you think they'll let you do, then you get resourceful and take your chances from there. You've always got choices, you just might not be thinking you do. I didn't say it would be easy. But as for Wiebo Ludwig, his overarching problem was that he was weighed down by this big community machine he had created, lots of people he was and is responsible for, and that severely limited his choices. I think a couple of strategies he followed would not have been my cup of tea, but that's not to say he didn't optimize where he was; I wasn't in his shoes, and so we are comparing apples and oranges. I am not saying everybody can be a free man in the exact same fashion, but it is and always will be about priorities. Within the law, even the ones 'they' make to prevent you, there is lots of room for striving for self-sufficiency and small-scale cooperation with others, so that your only choice very rarely is 'a new one in a box'. It is believed that evolution happened through the power of accumulation of small canges. Why should we not continue to evolve in the same manner? You can and do influence the situation around you if you choose to add soemthing new to it. Learn to say 'why not?' instead of 'they're not gonna let you'. You'll be surprised.

Watch all Liberal MLAs

getting new vehciles after they 'retire' (hopefully het thrown out!) from politics!

you want to walk as a

you want to walk as a warrior, you can't carry a family. Same goes for monks.

It is amazing

It is amazing as to how many of the discussions on this venue as well as others tend to digress to nothing more than an argument as to whether the left or right is better. Then the personal slagging commences, which adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Very adult!

The political polarization we seem to be living under does nothing more than cloud objectivity in favour of rhetoric.

there is no "right" and

there is no "right" and "left"

Just stupid, greedy, short-sighted, selfish people - and the rest of us.

A few comments from someone

A few comments from someone who used to work for car dealerships.

The original article suggests that there's very few curbers out there. Both the dealerships I worked at had curbers who worked at the dealership as their day job.

The original article suggests that very few vehicles pass the $55,000 threshold. While that is true for base vehicles, any aftermarket work done at the dealership on a purchased vehicle is added to the cost of the vehicle to determine if it is past the luxury threshold. In addition, any manufacturer-to-consumer rebates are not deducted from the cost of the vehicle for purposes of the luxury tax (manufacturer to dealer rebates are). The aftermarket thing has always been a sore point with dealers, since they'd lose aftermarket business to third parties as a result. Why would a businessman want his new van to be painted with the company logo at a dealership with a body shop when the paint job would push him over the luxury tax threshold, versus going somewhere else and not having to pay that extra tax?

The original article also states that because of the HST being extended to private sales that there are no savings to be had buying or selling your vehicle privately versus through a dealer. The dealer pays wholesale (at best), and sells at retail plus markup for commission, overhead, etc. The private seller will still get better than trade-in value for their vehicle, and the private buyer will still find vehicles for less than at dealerships. To suggest otherwise is exaggeration at best.

Finally, the original article talks about a long partnership between the auto dealers and the BC Liberals. What it should talk about instead is how the auto dealers believe that the NDP is out to screw them, like they did when they first introduced the luxury car tax with features like the "aftermarket work done at dealership is added to cost of vehicle". This is a two-party province. The dealers don't have any choice but to support the Liberals if the dealers don't want to be hosed again by a party which regards all dealers as crooks. It's no different than labour unions donating to the NDP, which they do in amounts that dwarf that given by the NCDA. $554,000 between 2005 and 2009? The BC GEU gave $416,000 to the NDP in 2009 ALONE, and the BC Federation of Labour $388,000. I think the NDP is just jealous that they only got $10,000 from the NCDA in 2009 (their second largest corporate donor, by the way).

JamesG

You must be joking.

The NDP has been in power in this province for a total of 13 years since 1950. The BCLIBERAL/Socred alliance has been in power for the balance of those years. The way I do the math that's 13 out of 60 or about 21% of the time. CRY ME A RIVER.

You suckers simply bought the kind of special service you just got from Campbell and Co.

Neither the NDP or the neocons should be getting ANY contributions from business - the government should govern FOR all the people AND the good of the whole population. That’s the whole point of luxury taxes – that excessive and unnecessary consumption (and often gas guzzling) vehicles should begin to pay more of the costs they impose on the public sphere. The only problem with the luxury tax is that it wasn’t higher.

As for your aftermarket argument, please, spare me – you know perfectly well your markup on that shit is more than making up for the extra taxes – you just don’t like paying your way.

The BC Car Dealers are simply the worst example of the 'partnership' between parties who care for private enterprise and don't give a shit about the public.

Your little story about how dealerships use 'curbers' to give potential buyers the 'impression' that they're making a private deal is interesting though. You guys can't help but run sleazeball operations can you? You gonna bring all those curbers on salary now?

car dealers really DO

car dealers really DO believe that an ideal world would see every citizen driving round in ther less-than-two year old gas burners, loaded with accessories and locked into a lifetime of car payments. They really do. It's an ideological thing. They aren't big on things like science, social awareness or assigning people any intrinsic value beyond bank balances. Go on, talk to some of them, you'll soon see what I mean. It's as if they are a remnant of an American post-Second World War economy based on clean windshields and shoe shines. It would be piquantly tragic I suppose, if they didn't have such a pernicious effect when coupled with robber baron government.

JamesG

So a bunch of car dealers donate to the liberals who in turn change legislation to increase their profit margins. It goes directly into their wallets. It is like a bribe with political intent.

Now unions (some), support the NDP because it is more labour friendly. It makes things easier for them to unionize, introduces better labour standards, worker protection, maybe down the road it will result in wage increases for all workers. It might even result in an increase in the minimum wage. This is the same as a gift of higher profits to a select bunch of car dealers? Give me an effing break! Even if one could argue that the luxury tax should go and the government no longer needs it, what possible reason, other than an ideological obsession would think it was fair to make private car sales pick up the cost for the car dealers. That is pure bull.

Bill Tieleman drives by

Glad to see BC Boy and others trying to attack the Fight HST Initiative - Boy you must be worried!

James G's points are actually well made - and that's a choice for voters in the next election - those who don't want a small luxury tax on automobiles should vote BC Liberals along with the car dealers.

As to union donations to the NDP - no kidding! I'm sure many readers wish it was a lot more, because the BC Liberals corporate donations are mroe than double the TOTAL NDP donations, unions, individuals, corporate and other.

A more useful comparison is what percentage of total donations the BC Liberals get from business versus what the BC NDP get from unions.

But the telling point is this - the BC NDP support dramatically changing election financing by severely limiting both corporate and union donations - a position that would make individual donations the major source of funding for all parties - seems fair to me - and I own a business.

Responses

To GWest: the luxury tax is only loosely connected to the cost a vehicle imposes on the public sphere. Does a vehicle with built-in GPS, a backup camera, XM satellite radio, and running boards guzzle significantly more gas than one without? The vehicle with the added options can trigger the luxury tax, which is retroactive on the entire price of the vehicle.

Note also that your "markup" argument is worthless. The dealers do not pay the tax. They collect the tax on behalf of the government from the customer. It is the customer who bears the cost, and no markup on aftermarket equipment can cover the loss when a customer walks away rather than paying the tax.

You have also greatly misunderstood what I wrote about curbers. You should re-read my post. I did not state that dealerships use curbers as curbers. Dealerships do not like curbers, at all, because they take away from dealership business. I stated that curbers worked at the dealerships I was at to demonstrate that they do exist, and in numbers sufficient to cause concern for dealers. (As a specific example, at the first dealership the lot manager, who oversees the crew that cleans and moves vehicles, and who arranges for vehicles on the lot to be repaired, was a curber in his off-time and used his knowledge of how dealers price, cost, purchase (at auto auction) and maintain used vehicles to assist in his side business. Had he steered a single customer off the lot to himself he would have been fired on the spot.)

Skywalker, you're proving one of my points. If you place everyone in either the "us" or "them" category, you shouldn't be surprised when all the "thems" vote for and support the other guy. The NDP has never been friendly with business in this province in general, and have been openly hostile towards car dealers. You can't clutch your pearls and act shocked when the car dealers figure it out and support the Liberals.

On a personal note, I wish I had a serious party to support other than the Liberals. I don't want to vote for a party that undermines BC Hydro and ICBC, gives away public money in sweetheart railway deals, and conceals accounting losses by "privatizing, but not really" BC Ferries. But I know which side of the "us versus them" I'm on when the NDP talk, so I'm left voting for the lesser of two evils. If a third party, of moderates/centrists, existed in BC, I'd vote for them in a flash.

Skywalker, you've fallen for the rhetoric in the original posting. The HST grab on private sales is not being done to pay for the elimination of the luxury tax. It's being done so people can't dodge paying the HST by arranging a private sale. Conflating the two is done to create just the sort of "us versus them" thing I've talked about earlier, with those fat-cat luxury car owners and those dishonest buyers of democracy the dealers being the "them".

And for Bill.

Curse the 3000 character limit!

Bill, how generous of the BC NDP to support something which would hamstring their opponents much more than themselves! The very definition of "fair"! I'd be a lot happier, on a personal level, if advertising by third parties during election campaigns was eliminated and media (TV, newspaper, radio) advertising was limited during a campaign to free spots mandated by legislation, to take money out of the democratic equation as much as possible. But I think we both know what the odds are of that happening.

JamesG

Car dealers weren't "forced" to fight the NDP, the joke in this province back in the 60's was that every second Socred MLA was a used car dealer. The car dealers have been the political enemy of the BC NDP because they literally have been the people running against them.

Secondly, if you aren't against corporate and union donations then you don't support a level playing field unless you believe that the party of the rich should have several times more money than the party of the poor.

Thirdly, even if they did scrap union and business donations one can't overlook the fact that the Sun, Province, CKNW et al actively support the BC Liberals. If we had a real level playing field the media would be forced to remain neutral.

Fourth, the NDP already is a centrist party under James as any left-winger will tell you. What you want obviously is a party between the Centre and the Right.

In other words, you accused Skywalker of forcing a "us versus them" scenario on you without realizing your support of the Liberal's attacks on the people of this province forces that same scenario on us.

crankypants

I used to say the same thing on the Tyee years ago, but the fact is experience has shown there is no middle ground.

James G

First of all. Thanks for ignoring the main point I was making - that your argument about car dealers having no choice about supporting Campbell because the NDP would put them out of business otherwise. What a worthless contention. 13 years man - out of 60 - if we attenuated that ratio to the era of the first car dealerships it would be even more absurd - cry me a river. You and your car dealer friends pay for what you selfishly want and you don`t give a shit about the rest of us as long as you get yours - and you had the temerity to suggest that the union-NDP situation is in any way analogous - what a joke.
Every jurisdiction (and there are lots of them) with a luxury tax makes the connection between the cost to the environment and the cost of the vehicle - that`s simply a fact in many States it`s actually called the gas-guzzler tax (as you well know) - and, to deny that your add on extras don`t have a higher markup than basic vehicles is equally bogus. That`s why you try to sell accessories and worthless after market crap like undercoating and GPS. You just want to be able to lard on all that BS and not incur a luxury tax - and your BCLiberal friends just made that possible - ain`t bought and paid for politics wonderful.`

You completely missed the point about curbers too - why do you think I asked if you`d be bringing them all on board instead of `using` them after you get your level playing field - curbers are handy for you guys because you don`t have to pay them a living wage when they`re working for you....and moonlighting on their own at night and on the weekend.
Ain`t free enterprise wonderful.

Hansen's BS

Hansen has stated that this new tax was being imposed to combat curbers. Well lo and behold, there is apparently a law in BC against "curbers". They cannot practice the sale of vehicles without the approptiate dealers license. Our solicitor general, Kash Heed, must know of this regulation seeing as he was a policeman before entering politics and could have explained this little factoid to Colin Hansen. So explain to me and the rest of us why joe sixpack who wishes to sell his personal car himself has to deal with collecting extra taxes for the government? Well the answer is that it is a tax grab by the BC Liberla party and payback to their financial supporters. The curbers reference was nothing more than a red herring.

Maybe it's time Campbell, Hansen and the rest of the band of thugs realized that the electorate is not as dumb as they think we are. Now the big question is, why was the MSM incapable of finding out this information and broadcasting it provincewide?

redistributing wealth upward. again.

Don't like the way the Liberals are spending your money? Taking from you to give to the rich? Too bad, so sad. Blather all you want about citizen uprisings and letter-writing campaigns.

Cr@p like this will never change until we have some form of proportional representation. Next time you get to vote for STV, vote YES. Without it (or something like it) Your opinion - your vote - is ineffectual and will never be meaningfully recognized in Parliament.

you can bet Jimmy Pattison

you can bet Jimmy Pattison made curb deals at the start of his career. Even while working for a dealer.