and this is the kind of thing

Harper finds instinctively appealing.

I'm totally disagree with your view over the Pal-tinian conflict

It seems that you are chosing facts that "help" your cause and hiding much information that refudiete your claims.
In short, you're very manipulated observer who makes huge efforts to spread a Falsetinian PrpPALganda Shiite.

For the Israelis.....

....it is nothing more or less than lebensraum.

Bustagrill spare us with

Bustagrill spare us with your nonsense. Israel's regime should pay the price for their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

If you side with them, you're siding with war criminals. Let me remind you that.

bluerev

Israel MUST be demonized. Do you think that we should have been nice toward the last apartheid, the former government of South Africa?

Apartheid regime MUST be shamed, boycotted and actively demonized.

Dobbin is right on.

IranianDude

I agree with you... but then so should palestinians, so should you and so should I. Everyone can be demon in certain aspects, my point is we need to see more than who is right (because no one is).

A short video well worth watching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bznLR3-kCtU&feature=player_embedded

Anti-Semitic Non Sequitur

The distinction between legitimate criticism of right-wing Isreali policies vs anti semitism is pretty simple. Those who continue to confuse the two are either failing to read Uri Avnery's weekly columns on Gush Shalom, or are deliberately fomenting spurious rhetoric
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery

It remains a curious allegation that thousands of Jewish peace activists (like Uri Avnery, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein etc etc) who oppose the current anti-democratic Israeli regime are somehow excluded from this debate. And when they are finally quoted, they too are dismissed as anti-Semitic (self-hating Jews). This takes the misuse of language to a further absurdity.

For those curious about the logical difference between antisemitism (which many neocon Western elites still harbour)and critiquing Israel's foreign policy, the best source is The Politics of Antisemitism, a brilliant collection of essays which forever puts to rest the myth that criticizing Isreal is anti-Semitic.
http://www.counterpunch.org/poas.html

For those who are not curious about this persistent fallacy, perhaps they should begun studying some other topic besides international politics.

Great article from the tireless and courageous Mr.Dobbin, brought to us by the great folks at the Tyee.

Arber is a racist; Dorothy is of course a moron

"pay attention to the fact that the Muslim/Islamic/Arabic people are killing each other in Gaza, Lebanon, Egypt, etc.,"

Classic racist and isalmophobe.

And as for Dorothy, I wouldn't even dignify her extremely retarded "argument."

IranianDude

Well, you still have to argue with them, not call them names. The arguments are manifold and mighty, and there really are a few on the other side as well, you know. Calling names is what arch-Zionists do when their hasbara fails. And when the Jerusalem Post or Yehediot Aranot picks it up and runs with it, then it gets into the mainstream polluting thousands of otherwise fine Jewish minds. Argument is work, but it leads to a fine discernment of the goals and methods of individual people instead of the politicized propaganda. And sometimes you then discover the most amazing common ground.

Argue or call names - pick your side.

Zalm

Zalm

You're right. I appreciate your reminder.

"legal right to the country"

Now that we have a number of different views here, I will not write extensively on the topic. However,please remember that Middle East has a continues history of religious wars and civil wars dating back to king David. What followed after? Expulsion of the Jewish population on few occasions and destruction of Jerusalem! Today though, not even all Israelis agree on what indeed was or is truth and I personally eager to read the last book of Shlomo Sand on this topic(use internet to see what I mean). The creation of a new country in 1948 was collaborated by Big Daddies of Europe and USA, and considering Holocaust and wide-spread antisemitism, the nation without land happily moved back to their roots.
Ever since every Arab country bordering Israel declared a war on it at one point. Israel invaded Egypt ...was mentioned above! Well, USA and USSR had invaded Germany...for there was a reason, and later divided it by wall!!!!!!! Apartheid?
Road blocks on the border? Definitely,or else among ten Arab workers getting in, one will bring a bomb and on the way home will smuggle a stolen car to be taken apart in Gaza's body shop. There is about one million Arabs living inside Israel and glad to have access to health care and education and they do work government jobs too.
We speak war crimes? War is a crime. Sending a home made rocket on my yard is a crime with consequences
for both sides. Or, by the way, about settlers- from Hudson Bay to a El-Paso how would we call the non-native population?
Thanks for your time.

on ways to pleasure

Conspicuous by its absence is your failure to event mention Israel's illegal (see UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Fourth Geneva Convention, several binding UNSC resolutions, declarations of Theodor Meron, the legal counsel of the Foreign Ministry in June, 1967, the US State Dept. etc.) belligerent/brutal occupation and continuous confiscation of Palestinian lands and water resources (i.e., the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip) as well as Syria's Golan Heights and Lebanon's Shebaa Farms - all invaded and occupied by Israel during the war it launched on 5 June 1967 despite the fact that a diplomatic solution was nearly in hand.
Furthermore, every war that has taken place between the Arab states and Israel was either started directly or precipitated by Israel.

on ways to pleasure

"War crime? war is a crime"

We are not playing who is better in alliteration here! War crimes and crimes against humanity have legal definition. Use Google!

As extensively documented by UN, Israel has committed these unthinkable and horrendous crimes i.e. war crimes and crimes against Palestinians since its inception in 1948.

Please refer to Goldstone report on the recent war crimes committed by IDF (Israel Defence Force) murderers in Gaza.

An no there are not "numerous" views here. There is a global consensus that Israel's apartheid system should be dealt with proactively. We can't have a genocidal regime in the global community that constantly violates international law, mocks any effort toward peace and continually stonewalls any chance for peace. Of course along the way, the supporters of this genocide machine known as Israel throw anti-semtism charges to stall the movement toward boycott and sanctions against Isarel's regime. This tactic has been backfiring so rapidly .... even holocaust survivors are voicing their contempt toward Israel's ethnic cleansing and racist machine.

Bottomline is Israel has never been interesetd in peace. why would they? they are in the business of stealing someone else's land. Today Israel's court has approved 1500 HOMES TO BE BUILT IN EAST JERUSALEM - PALESTINIAN LAND!

To bring an end to Israel's apartheid and state sponsored terrorism, there is only one way and one way only: boycott, divestment and sanctions. It worked in South Africa it WILL WORK IN APARTHEID STATE OF ISRAEL.

Forgive me if someone has already posted this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8558850.stm
The Yanks dumping Israel?
What is next?

doggone

Yes, I saw the BBC item earlier and also on Al Jazeera. Glad you posted it. Such typical arrogance on Israel's part, such contempt for the hand that feeds and protects it - nearly $10 million per day funded by strapped US taxpayers, 365 days a year as well as $billions in tax deductible contributions from US individuals and organizations that serve Israel, the expansionist, occupier ethnic-cleanser state. The question is how much longer will Washington allow Israel to humiliate America. I predict the end is in sight. No matter how you slice and dice it, Israel is America's number one and ever-increasing geopolitical liability. Sooner or later, all nations must act in their own best interests. As of this year, there are 1.75 billion Muslims worldwide. In 20-25 years there will be three billion as well as 650-700 million Arabs, including about 12 million Palestinians between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea. The implications for US foreign policy, especially that of the Middle East are obvious. The handwriting is on the wall, but Israel still refuses to read it.

In The Litany

of the state of Israel's various offenses - which have nothing to do with the fact of being Jewish by birth or choice, or practicing Hebrew religious rites, or living anywhere else in the world - which many have listed here, I have not seen any mention of the common abuse by Mossad of using fraudulent documents to assist their agents' deception.

Canadian identities were used a few years ago, and just recently Australia complained that the same thing was happening there. I expect that if the Australian and Canadian secret services used Israeli documents our governments would be quickly advised to cease and desist.

Stepheh Hubris

Stephen Hubris should give Mossad some blank Canadian passport so that these murderers could go around the world and assassinate people with the mobility a Canadian passport offers.

Think about if we support war criminals unconditionally shouldn't we assist them to be more effective in violating international law?

Hubris and Kenny's support of apartheid regime of Israel is sickening. It's prime for Canadians to wake up to see what these Jesus freaks are doing to this country.

Stephen Hubris

Stephen Hubris should give Mossad some blank Canadian passports so that these murderers could go around the world and assassinate people with the kind of mobility a Canadian passport offers.

Think about it if we are going to support war criminals unconditionally shouldn't we assist them to be more effective in violating international law?

Hubris and Kenny's support of apartheid regime of Israel is sickening. CANADIAN GOVERNMENT IS IN THE WROING SIDE OF HISTORY. It's prime time for Canadians to wake up and see what these Jesus freaks are doing to this country.

what makes you think

he hasn't already?

everyday life in Palestine

To get an impression of the way the Palestinians are forced to live I recomend this site.

http://www.imemc.org/

It often makes painful reading.

Poh!

Thanks for the link, david hadaway. I'm glad to see this project got off the ground.

Scary stuff!

Israeli Ynet News obtained a video showing fundamentalist Jewish settlers celebrating the memory of terrorist Dr. Baroch Goldstein, and praising his crime that targeted Muslim worshipers at the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron in February 25, 1994, killing 46 worshipers and wounding dozens.

The setters were dancing and singing a special song meant to praise Goldstein and the way he opened fire at the worshipers killing and wounding dozens of them....

The Ynet News reported that the festivities of the settlers are similar to those held by fundamentalist settlers in the southern West Bank city of Hebron, where the massacre took place.

The video that was obtained by Ynet was filmed on Monday; it shows the settlers and their children, dancing and singing to praise Goldstein.

“Dr. Goldstein, Dr. Goldstein, we all love you, Dr. Goldstein there is nobody like you in the world,” the settlers sang, “he aimed at the heads of the terrorists, squeezed the trigger, and shot and shot….”

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=58127
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3857671,00.html

Yep. This is the population the "most moral army in the world" draws its fighters from.

And hey! Let's remember that Kach is illegal in Israel.

But not really....

To various detractors and such

"And as for Dorothy, I wouldn't even dignify her extremely retarded "argument."

- So why AREN'T you just ignoring it??

"I note you made no reference to the fact that while illegally/belligerently/brutally occupying and stealing Palestinian/Canaanite lands well armed Jewish settler/colonialists take their children with them, thereby exposing them to possible violence".

Well, do you hear them whining about every single child that perishes? No, they suck it up and then proceed to get even. Not the same at-all.

I can only repeat what I've said before: It is extremely hypocritical to spout these anti-israeli rants and never come clean about what you really mean! I take it that you do not want the evetually displaced, if you have your way, Israelis to come and live in your neighborhood? Then what are you imagining? Where do you think they should go, since Ireland didn't pan out? Why not admit that you want them to wither and die, or worse. I am so out of patience with this mealy-mouthed nonsense.

Actually

I, for one, have always called for Israeli immigrants who've made aliyah (for generally the most selfish of reasons) to come home where we can put their talents to work. Of the roughly 2-3000 North American Jews that make aliyah each year, most end up as settlers there on an ideological mission. Of the roughly same amount of French settlers, about half end up as settlers. These are the only ones who end up as settlers by choice, and generally on Palestinian-owned land in Hebron and elsewhere.

Argentine Jews, Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Sephards, Iranian Jews (yes, there are still about 25,000 Jews left in Iran, mostly in the big cities) and others who make aliyah tend to end up as settlers mostly because the government provides considerable subsidies to settlers so that disruption is not created to the rest of Israeli society by their entry.

And unfortunately, this barrier ends up sharpening the divisions in that society. Immigrants complain of racist treatment from native-born Israelis, and many move on, having gained that all-important first-world passport to other regions of the world - France, Great Britain, Germany and especially North America.

It's a weird thing. We're raiding the best of other countries to bring them here to contribute to our society, yet some of you are happy to see them leave. Sigh.

dorothy, I'm sure you're only speaking to one voice and not all of us on this thread, some of whom, like sharpshooter, are remarkably literate and well-read, but really, your own rant about hypocrisy is.... is.... oh, I don't know, hypocritical? itself. You've got this weird blind spot with Israel, and I don't know what brings it up. Too much snoggin' at the mug while reading Uris' novel Exodus?

Please, broaden your reading list. We'd be happy to help you with some authentic Israeli authors who've learned to tell a story unencumbered by the ritualistic distortions so prevalent in the political arena.

Prisoners of Zion

Whatever may be the truth of ‘the’ Holocaust, it is an inescapable truth that any time you make it against the law to question something, there is a good reason to question it. Whatever may be the truth about ‘the’ Holocaust, it is clear that it turned into an industry of intimidation and blackmail. It is the most dreadful of ironies that today the same injuries are being performed upon a captive population by the people claiming the same injuries to have been previously practiced on them.

There are no justifications and there are no arguments or excuses that can be applied in the defense of this evil behavior. It is what it is.

Do not trouble your minds as to how it is possible for human beings to behave this way. They are not human beings. The governments of England, the United States and Israel are in the hands of psychopaths and whores. It is true that there are draconian and malicious governments in other places. It is true that there are odious creatures in operation in places all around the world but… they are not threatening the entire world. They are not in a position to finance world wide terror and then blame it on the Muslims in order to systematically exterminate millions of people.

Why are the Muslims targeted? They oppose usury for one thing and… they do not go willingly into the fleshpots and amusement centers being operated by those seeking to destroy them and who use these allurements to stupefy and enslave everyone else. They do not recognize temporal authority as the highest court.

Are there corrupt and violent Muslims? Of course. The same could be said about Hindus and Buddhists. Christianity… as an organized entity, is already hand in glove with the temporal authority. Muslims are dangerous to the corporate and banking interests, employed in the effort toward world domination, because they don’t want to play ball. Besides the fact that The Saudis control Hollywood (snicker, nudge nudge, wink wink)) they pretty much stay out of those areas of sensory magic. They are not marketplace oriented. They are not worshiping the corporate gods. It’s more than that but you all know what the ‘more than that’ is so I don’t have to go into it.

Murdering members of a captive people… attacking your own country and killing the people you were sworn to protect in an effort to imprison them with fear of a manufactured enemy, for the purpose of personal power and personal gain are just some of the signs and wonders of the time. Then to attack other nations, which were blamed for the acts you committed, in order to not only plunder those nations but to also profit from the fruits of war and the sale of armaments are some other signs and wonders…but the greatest wonder is that it is just business as usual and the protagonists are looked upon as the leaders and shepherds of humanity.

Prisoners of Zion part 2

These days I marvel at those with so much more power, influence and opportunity than I who just don’t get it. They’ve got the benefit of those great educations and all those canny advisers and experts and they just don’t get it. They just don’t get it but… they will. They will.

The double standards

Calling Murray Dobbins article 'one sided' is akin to calling the Israeli/Palestinian conflict a 'war.'

A war is when two armies are fighting.

So you see, I think we can both agree.

Apartheid Article

Thank you Murray Dobbin for an excellent article, documenting the systematic and brutal oppression
of the Palestinians.

We have too long been lied to by the lobby controlled
media, and your article says you refuse to be intimidated.

Bravo,
jaydayrock

Well Tyee, I guess we will

Well Tyee, I guess we will see you next year for Israeli Apartheid week. Until then we wi

Censored

Two years and there is still a news blackout on the existence of Canada’s Israel Allies Caucus, an entity that exists within Canada’s Parliament - presumably to guide the government in a pro Israel direction - something which Canadians have certainly seen with Harper’s codling behaviour towards Israeli war crimes during the Gaza atrocity.

It is so hard to get news about the Zionist influence on national politics, that Canadians had to get this information from an Israeli paper!
It's disgraceful for Canada and an insult to Jews (not Zionists).

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Canadian-Policy-The-Jerus-by-Bahija-Reghai-100125-265.html

Really?

“..Too much snoggin' at the mug while reading Uris' novel Exodus?”

That fat book? Nah, I haven’t read it, it would be like…work.

Well OK, so I am buying that you want them to come home, or stay home, as in staying in Canada. Many people, however, didn’t and don’t feel the same. I think, as a matter of fact, that in 1948, when the state of Israel was proclaimed, Jewish people may have felt singularly unwelcome just about everywhere in the world, for instance in Canada, where they had been denied entry even though there were being killed on our doorstep more or less.

Maybe my blind spot comes from having grown up in Denmark, where I saw a synagogue in my home town at about age 9, never having noticed it before, and asking my mother if ‘mosaic community center’ meant the people inside were all artists, making tile decorations. So you see, I was not brought up to notice that people were in ‘them and us’ categories. I know now that at least three of my early classmates were Jewish, but I certainly didn’t know it then. Now the Jewish people in Denmark stayed home. In fact, when David Ben Gurion visited the country in order to broach the idea of going home to Israel, he was told politely, but firmly, that these people were Danes first and Jews second, and he would be hard pressed to find anyone of Zionistic bend there.

So, I am concluding from this, that the Jews elsewhere, who are minded to split and go for the ‘ascent’ may not feel at home where they are for reasons not entirely under their control. Now I can relate to that, being an immigrant myself and having been prodded and ‘looked over’ and pronounced acceptable for more times than I care to count. There are so many little ways one can put down, and no, I am not hyper-sensitive; in fact, I cannot fathom why anyone would not like me, as I am an outreaching kind of person, extremely tolerant of the quirks and hang-ups of others, and usually of good cheer through the darkest of adversities.

So, this is what I mean by hypocritical. We keep licking at that wound, the infamous ‘Jewish question’, but we are NOT willing to look hard at ourselves and our own frailties, and see it through to calling a spade a spade. And, I do notice that you, which disappoints ME, resort to the put-down of suggesting that I have my head in the clouds and my nose in the grog. If you think I need to know something more, just tell me in your own words! Don’t give me a ‘reading list’.

Dorothy

So many words and you say nothing of consequence. Address the realities of today and the past 62 years or move on.

Pot and kettle again...

"..Such typical arrogance on Israel's part, such contempt for the hand that feeds and protects it - nearly $10 million per day funded by strapped US taxpayers, 365 days a year as well as $billions in tax deductible contributions from US individuals and organizations that serve Israel, the expansionist, occupier ethnic-cleanser state. The question is how much longer will Washington allow Israel to humiliate America. I predict the end is in sight. No matter how you slice and dice it, Israel is America's number one and ever-increasing geopolitical liability. Sooner or later, all nations must act in their own best interests."

This is stuff 'of consequence'? More like listening to Blanche Hunt on the Corrie.

What makes you think the US ever has, does now or ever will, not act in its own best interests, or at least the interests of its movers and shakers? It is a nation of blue-eyed idealists, yes? When pigs fly.

At least I am telling a story that people didn't know before, and those who forget (or ignore) history are doomed to repeat it, but maybe some people don't mind doing the same dumb thing over again.

straightshooter

Dorothy is absolutely right, we are better off ignoring her.

This woman doesn't even have basic critical thinking skills to differentiate between facts and anecdotes.

Safe to ignore her incoherent and moronic rants.

Have a good weekend.

IranianDude

Agreed!!

Got the dictionary out just for you!

"IGNORE
v ignore [igˈnoː]
to take no notice of; to pay no attention to

[example] He ignored all my warnings."

Have you the critical skills to recognize that you’re not doing that, when you’re not only reading my posts, but also commenting on them, plus conjecturing on my mental faculties??

729

http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/9

Great link Takuan

Incidentally, I inquired about 'Israeli' wines at our local BC liquor store. The manager of the store told me that they haven't sold more than three bottles in the last 7 months! And this is fairly big store we're talking.

So obviously the movement toward boycotting Israeli's product is gaining momentum rapidly.

And please don't buy books from Chapters.

This is a good list of

This is a good list of companies that fund Israeli regime.

Source website: http://stopfundingisrael.com/companies.html

Warning: the website contains disturbing footage of a baby who was shot strategically in the chest by the Israeli defense force. You would think they would fight someone their own size, but killing babies and defenseless populations is more what they are used to.

List of companies that support the murder of Palestinian babies:

AOL
APAX partners + Co.
ARSENAL FOOTBALL CLUB
COCA COLA
DANONE
DELTA GALIL
DISNEY
ESTEE' LAUDER
HOME DEPOT
IBM
INTEL
JOHNSON + JOHNSON
KIMBERLY-CLARK
LEWIS TRUST GROUP LTD
L'OREAL
MARKS + SPENCERS
MCDONALDS
NESTLE
NEWS CORPORATION
NOKIA
REVLON
SARA LEE
SELFRIDGES
STARBUCKS
THE LIMITED INC.
TIMBERLAND

Boycott Chapters & Indigo stores

This is why:

http://www.canpalnet.ca/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=193&Itemid=1

Chapter has strong ties to Israel's genocidal military. So next time you're buying a book from Chapters, picture an IDF murderer putting a bullet in the chest of yet another Palestinian children.

Your dollars should not go towards financing war crimes and crimes against humanity.

How impressively non-anecdotal!

"I inquired about 'Israeli' wines at our local BC liquor store. The manager of the store told me that they haven't sold more than three bottles in the last 7 months! And this is fairly big store we're talking.

So obviously the movement toward boycotting Israeli's product is gaining momentum rapidly."

I wouldn't be so sure. I have seen any number of people buy plastic buckets marked 'made in Israel' from at least one Canadian Tire store, and that was no small store there.

Can we please get serious here! Show the subject the respect it deserves and write properly, so we don't have to put up with stuff like "shot strategically in the chest by the Israeli defense force", or "bullet in the chest of yet another Palestinian children."

On Israel Apartheid Week

List of Israeli wines at the BC Liquor store:

1. AUVIGNON BLANC - GALIL MOUNTAIN 07/08 KOSHER
2. CHARDONNAY - GALIL MOUNTAIN 07/08 KOSHER
3. PINOT NOIR - GALIL MOUNTAIN 05/06 KOSHER
4. CABERNET SAUVIGNON - GALIL MOUNTAIN 07/08 KOSHER
5. CABERNET SAUVIGNON - YARDEN 2006 KOSHER
6. MOUNT HERMON RED - YARDEN 2006 KOSHER
7. CABERNET MERLOT SYRAH - GALIL MOUNTAIN YIRON 03/05 KOSHER
8. KILLER TOMATOES & WINE
9. CANAAN CHARD. SAUV. RIESLING - DALTON, MEVUSHAL KOSHER 07
10. MUSCAT - YARDEN, GOLAN HEIGHTS 05/06 KOSHER
11. MERLOT - GALIL MOUNTAIN 07/08 KOSHER
12. CANAAN RED - DALTON 2006 MEVUSHAL KOSHER

Time to Boycott one Israeli products at the time.

Excellent news

http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/660

Phon van den Biesen and Adri Nieuwhof
10 March 2010 - On 25 February, the European Court of Justice ruled that imports manufactured in Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank shouldn't benefit from a trade agreement between Israel and the European Union.

---------------------
And of course we know that Hubris' government doesn't have an ounce of decency to move toward moral direction. Israel lobby anyone?

Check out these two

Check out these two informative videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bznLR3-kCtU&feature=player_embedded

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4824

For an analysis of how the world views Israel (before its slaughter of over 1,400 defenceless Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during "Operation Cast Lead), go to this site:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/for-israel-every-traveller-is-an-ambassador/article1479056/

I am wondering

I am wondering what's our Prime Minister's reaction when he sees Palestinians slaughtered by IDF thugs and Israelis genocidal regime.

What I am trying to understand is the level of financial support his party receives from the Israel lobby to be this blatantly inhumane.

We haven't forgotten when he shared the same podium with that sorry excuse for a human being Izzy fricking Asper.

Dorothy: "Can we please get

Dorothy: "Can we please get serious here! Show the subject the respect it deserves and write properly, so we don't have to put up with stuff like "shot strategically in the chest by the Israeli defense force", or "bullet in the chest of yet another Palestinian children.""

Excuse me... Miss. You are not giving the subject the respect it deserves. What would you do if someone bulldozed your home and shot your children dead, and told you to show some respect and get serious?

Yeah. I'm sure you would get serious, and some of us are.

Here is a documented and irrefutable testimony from the mouths of Palestinian mothers, fathers, and children who's unarmed families were strategically slaughtered by Israeli armed forces. Show yourself some respect and watch this series.

Goldstone Facts-The Real Story Behind Israel's Invasion of Gaza-Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIpA6sXksNw

Goldstone Facts-The Real Story Behind Israel's Invasion of Gaza-Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHDoH4hrFfs

Goldstone Facts-The Real Story Behind Israel's Invasion of Gaza-Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftfsGWdHU0A

Israel will continue to slaughter innocent Palestinians and steal their land until it is severed from all financial support. We can talk, and bicker all we want... but until we get serious and make them stop, the carnage will continue.

Revenise

Revenise,

Please never argue with morons.

dorothy

"And, I do notice that you, which disappoints ME, resort to the put-down of suggesting that I have my head in the clouds and my nose in the grog. If you think I need to know something more, just tell me in your own words! Don’t give me a ‘reading list’."

Now you're being insulting. My own library has two dozen books I could recommend, each of which addressed mostly different points in Israel's history - bombing of the King David hotel, early Palestinian settlement under the Ottomans, Israel's "settlement" industry, histories of Weizman and Ben Gurion, various histories of the Jews from self-laudatory to critical, other histories of the holy land, and I've read perhaps another two dozen more from the library.

And you want me to summarize those for you and give you the education you deserve just so we can have a proper argument in two 3000-character posts?

Insulting, I'd call it. Do your own homework!

"I think, as a matter of fact, that in 1948, when the state of Israel was proclaimed, Jewish people may have felt singularly unwelcome just about everywhere in the world, for instance in Canada, where they had been denied entry even though there were being killed on our doorstep more or less.

Wrong. As wrong as you can be.

Some of the late-comers may have felt that way, but the ones who formed the state of Israel had been there for more than a generation, working to take over large and productive parcels of land to form a Jewish nation, with or without the compliance of the native Arab population (and they got both). I'm not arguing Jews who sought to leave were turned away from many countries including Canada, nor am I going to bring up how Ben Gurion sought to leave Jews behind for the Holocaust in order to secure support for an independent Jewish nation - these points can only be argued when one has a solid and proper grasp of the history of the region from all sides. Which you clearly don't, or you wouldn't be quoting me your lines direct from Uris' novel, like you did above.

Sigh. Want that reading list now? Or must we maltreat you some more?

Zalm

You gave me an advice now let me give you one. You'll never ever win arguing me morons with delusion grandeur. Don't waste your time she isn't worth it. Because, Racist and ignorant folks don't have any interests to move beyond their myopic racist world. Let them die in their perpetual ignorance.

Stick with the Boycott movement.

correction

arguing with morons ...

On second thought

Why leave you hanging? Here's a sample reading list - certainly not comprehensive, nor covering all aspects - but it's fair to both sides, from the unabashedly Zionist panegyric (Cantor) to the scholarly (Hilbert and Bartov), the revisionist (Morris and Pappe) to outsider (Cook).

But if this list doesn't leave you in tears at the breathtaking stupidity of all sides in this dismal fight, then I don't know what to recommend next.

Norman Cantor - The Sacred Chain
David Ben Gurion - Rebirth and Destiny of Israel
Howard Sachar - A History of Israel from the Rise of Zionism to Our Time
Benny Morris - The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem
Omer Bartov - Germany’s War and the Holocaust
Raul Hilberg - The Destruction of the European Jews
Ilan Pappe - A history of modern Palestine
Donna Robinson Divine - Politics and Society in Ottoman Palestine
Tom Segev - One Palestine, Complete
Michael Palumbo - The Palestinian Catastrophe: The 1948 Expulsion of a People from Their Homeland
Bernard Avishai - The Tragedy of Zionism
Jonathan Cook - Blood and Religion

IranianDude

Just call me Don Quixote. Sometimes I agree with you, which is why I don't enter into some of the fights that aren't worth getting into on these threads. But this one is, and dorothy's worth it too, even if I don't always understand the tenor of her thoughts. The toughest thread battle I ever had with a Zionist took over four months on BCIMC and I had to bring every bit of my reading and analysis up for confrontation, and certainly got taken apart a few times in the process. It only made my understanding more complete.

See, I think most of us of a certain age (mebbe you excepted) grew up with the myth of Israel in our history books. Many of us learned the truth and swung over to Palestinian apologetics. Fewer still have explored the dismal history on both sides and returned to a more neutral position, which allows our social conscience to effectively advise us how to respond appropriately. Israel isn't going away anytime soon, but neither are the Palestinians. Let's get it together so we can advise Harper et all how wrong-headed and blind they are and how much at risk they're putting Canadian reputations and lives around the world.

Plus, that reading list applies to you, in case there are any you haven't read. In fact, everyone should start with Avishai - he's an easy read, and fair to both sides, and you'll all be inspired to clean up your arguments and drop the Zionist propaganda forever once you do.

By the way

don't ever argue with Mormons either.... ;>)

It is always a lovely thing

It is always a lovely thing in seeing a Jewish man and his Rabbi dancing hand in hand with the Palestinian man.

Jews against Zionism & Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNw8YrGH9E