That leading quote above (from another piece I wrote elsewhere today) should read,

Well written article on a very touchy subject! Often discussions involving Israel degrade into name-calling and historical grievances justifying current actions.

Harper has backtracked a bit after that statement of support of Israel's "measured" response saying events had escalated since he had said that. It would be useful to have a chronology of events and his quotes and how his position has shifted after the deaths of a Canadian family in Lebanon.

You know, I'm fine if the Mossad skips across the border and does in some key people after the latest stunt Hezbollah pulled. But Israel's hideous response is way out of line.

And its no coincidence that Harper, Bush and the Evangelical movement in the US are all on the same page in supporting these war crimes.

uhh unlike others I've been deeply critical of Israel and even it's formation many years ago, but even I in the past year or so have grown tired of the victim nonsense perpetuated by radical Islamists.

Israel is not perfect but one only has to read the philosophical underpinnings of the Islamists to see they are extremely similar to those of Nazi Germany. Why so many on the left ready to turn a blind eye to the ideas informing Hezbollah and Hamas is a mystery indeed?

Perhaps an addiction to Victim Politics shutters some from reality.

There is no doubt the extremists need to be dealt with before any semblance of peace can occur.

Enough already -disproportionate response?Gimme a break - you have rockets lobbed at you from your neighbors and lunatics constantly attempt to blow you and your friends up at the coffee shop/bus stop/parking lot for one month let alone many years and then tell me what you think.

OK, so there is this bully outside your door. He keeps bashing and bruising you every time you set foot outside the door. Sometimes he even throws rocks in through your window as well as shouts threats and obscenities through the openings his vandalism has created.

If you try to talk to him and asks what he really wants, maybe you can reach some kind of agreement, he tells you he doesn't care to make agreements with you, for some time in the not too distant future, he will see you six feet under, or, at the very least, fleeing your house, at which time he will move in.

Some time during these tribulations, you call the authorities for help. They arrive, and wag a finger in his face, and send him warnings, twenty or thirty, but since verbal stuff is all they send his way, he just goes on.

You wonder, how he can manage out there, he seems to be around 24/7. Then you learn, that one of your neighbours lets him sleep on his porch, and invites him for dinner every day. He complains mightily about this pushy guest, who overstays his welcome, but takes no action to get rid of him, and continues to feed him each day.

What are you going to do?? Is your set of actions going to be 'measured', 'civilized', 'respectful of innocent bystanders'? I don't think so. You're gonna try to get him, before he gets you, and if anyone stands in your way, innocently or not, too bad.

I do not take the taking of lives lightly. I only have one myself and know it for the most precious commodity I can lay hands on. It would be the same for everybody else. Unfortunately, we each of us have only what wits the Gods gave us, and if it isn't enough to keep us out of harm's way, we suffer harm. This is part of the human condition, and we can bemoan it, but calling down the legal heavyweights cannot really put up much against basic survival instincts. And that is what is at play here.

Until such time as 'drop dead or I'll drop you' ceases to be the only agenda point for those unwittingly supported by the bystanders through their non-action, I don't believe the Israeli people and government can do differently. It only proves, that putting any man in the position where he has nothing to lose is perilous.

Anyway, these victims are doing a pretty goddamned good job, on largely their own regional resources, and without the massive military and cash largesse Zionist Occupied Palestine receives from the real author of this New Middle East Colonialism venture underwriter, which is the US Empire.

Victim nonsence?

That all victims, here on our streets in this country no less, up against the same Neoconservative/Fascist world view and juggernaut, were acting with such committment to their own defence.

And yea, you were "critical of Israel" in the past alright-, no bloody doubt. When it fit that Nazi mentality time. Now the Arabs are the "new untermenschen" fuel for the furnaces of the New Holocaust, eh, and the Jews have been transformed into the new Christian Right cause celebre. Even wingnuts adapt to new geopolitical and ideological realities, nicht wahr?

Real history is real history, not simple "victimization" ideology. Hezbollah, and Hamas of Occupied Palestine, are responding to the new Holocaust being brought down upon the Arab peoples by now, in one of the greatest ironic twists of history, the European and US Zionists, in league with a rampaging US Empire venture in the Middle East entire. The wrong done them in an earlier time in Europe, the Jews, now being in turn inflicted by them upon the Palestinians, are not two wrongs that make a right either. And as that Holocaust in the end failed to wipe out the Jews, so this one is destined to fail to extirpate the Palestinians from their land.

The Arabs ARE now the victims of this New Western Colonialism venture, no doubt, but they are not the passive and entirely helpless victims to which you allude and would have them be. These victims are fighting back against incredible odds, Hamas and Hezbollah, like men with cojones, and not Neocons who fight only from keyboards while the working class and poor die like fools for their far off imperial causes.

There are victims and there are victims. These are not layabouts with needles in their arms, These victims have guns and rockets in their hands, and are not afraid to use them.

Get used to it.

And let me be entirely clear-, I have no religious faith of any kind. I am an atheist. So Muslim, Christian, or Voo Doo largely matters not a twaddle to me, and impresses me not in the least.

That said, I have been around long enough to have discovered that differences in religion, raised as a cause by this or that faction, often mask other political and economic issues which are the other more likely and real material underlying "cause that divides." When all else is equal and harmonious, it has been proven time and again, many religious faiths can live quite well and in peace with one another, side by side. And nowhere has this been more true for long, long periods of time than in the Middle East. At least as much as we, with our own historical differences between Catholics, Protestants, and yes, Jews, who are themselves divided into numerous sects again.

Religion, however, often becomes an "ideological cause" when there are other, often more real "material" issues that suddenly make it "seem" that what is at issue are matters of religion and faith.

Being an atheist short circuits all of that, of course, and would be the wiser course, and matters made more clear because of it. But people are people, we are still a relatively primitive lot really, and fall prey still to religious demagougery, charlatanism, bogeymen and fanciful religious notions.

The Arabs are raising the banner of their Muslimism, of course, because it is something historical amongst them and that still has the power to instantly rally them to a single flag, when necessary, as now. When, in fact, within themselves, they are as fractious as Christians, and as liable to fall upon each other. :-)

Still, for me, as Arabs, they have as much right as Canadians or Amerikans, to be left alone in their own land with their own resources, uninterfered with, and to determine the nature of their own ideas and societies. Left alone, they are as capable of "evolving" as we.

But to evolve, everyone, even they need peace, which can only grow out of their own sovereignty, no less than we.

Well, Coyote I think Israel has no choice but to act like a state derived only by virtue of military strength in the first place. And as such, it is creating even more hatred and thereby ensuring that future generations of Israelies will be living in the same fear of militants' rockets, until of course, the Arabs finally overrun the place in about fifty years from now and take Israel completely out of there.

300 million to 4 million are inevitably bad odds, (even with the smaller group having nuclear arms, which they can't use)and the mandate of numbers will finally prevail when the Americans decide it's not really worth having a military base disguised as a foreign nation, afterall--and someone manages to sneak the Mossad's secret files on all American politicians out of the Middle East, and AIPAC finally gets audited and dissolved.

Until then, look for more Americans raving about Israel's right to defend itself and just about everybody forgetting that 60 years ago Menachin Begin was running around the place murdering and guerillaing in the name of liberty--not a whole lot different than Hezbollah is today.

OK, so there is this bully outside your door. He keeps bashing and bruising you every time you set foot outside the door. Sometimes he even throws rocks in through your window as well as shouts threats and obscenities through the openings his vandalism has created.

If you try to talk to him and asks what he really wants, maybe you can reach some kind of agreement, he tells you he doesn't care to make agreements with you, for some time in the not too distant future, he will see you six feet under, or, at the very least, fleeing your house, at which time he will move in.

Some time during these tribulations, you call the authorities for help. They arrive, and wag a finger in his face, and send him warnings, twenty or thirty, but since verbal stuff is all they send his way, he just goes on.

You wonder, how he can manage out there, he seems to be around 24/7. Then you learn, that one of your neighbours lets him sleep on his porch, and invites him for dinner every day. He complains mightily about this pushy guest, who overstays his welcome, but takes no action to get rid of him, and continues to feed him each day.

What are you going to do?? Is your set of actions going to be 'measured', 'civilized', 'respectful of innocent bystanders'? I don't think so. You're gonna try to get him, before he gets you, and if anyone stands in your way, innocently or not, too bad.

Well you see, there's a distinction here. What you're saying relies on the fact that it's the Israeli's house to begin with. In reality the Israeli living there stole that house from the Arabian who was living there and all that man wants is to get the property back which was taken from him.

At first he thought threatening and trying to scare them off would be enough to make them go but when that doesn't work he tries something a little more forceful, a little extreme. If it takes his life to get rid of that person for his children so they can have the house back, that's a sacrifice he's willing to make. This is the other side of the spectrum.

Just like you think the Israeli has every right to kill him so he can get some peace and quiet in his new home I believe the Palestinians and Lebanese have every right to threaten and fight to try and get their property back. The major difference between them now is that one side has substantially more power and backing to do what they want, ie: The Israeli has a gun and the Arabian only has a rock and a stick. This is what allowed the Israeli to steal the house to begin with.

If the Arabian can get away with throwing a stone and trying to scare the Israeli off without getting shot to death, he'll do it. We know the Israeli's won't give the house back and, given the chance, he will obviosuly shoot the Arabian, even after stealing his house because he can't get away with the theft free and clear until the Arabian's gone but apparently he can get away with murder more easily.

And this is where things have stood for awhile, until someone makes a greater change to either murder all of the Arabians or allow them to reclaim their land. Or larger forces come into play which will cause real and drastic changes to life around the world due to the dependance on regional oil. Let's hope for the best but plan for the worse.

Scary stuff. Remember that this is BC and we are peoples from all areas of the globe. Those here longest are the many First Nations peoples. "Let's face it. We're all here to stay." I think the quote goes something like that from the Supreme Court of Canada Delgamuukw case. Same for the middle east, though, like here, many things can change for the better. I don't know what political-military details ought to characterise an Israeli state, but their people certainly have the right to live in peace. Talk of moving them to Germany, or Canada, or elsewhere is not the way we would talk about Canadians of various origins - Japanese internment camps during WWII -- not a nice piece of BC/Canadian history. Israel's response looks clearly disproportionate -- bombing areas with citizens in response to two kidnapped soldiers. The question for the International Criminal Court is who made the call and under what circumstances. "Establishing deterence?" There are other ways.

Coyote - Your posts reek of the anti-Semitism which now characterizes so much of the political Left today. "Euro-Zionist Cabal"? "Zionist Occupiers" in the Levant? Puhleeeze.

Everyone knows the Israeli response isn't just about the abducted soldiers (although Hezbollah knows they've always reacted strongly to this tactic for domestic reasons, and have brought this upon themselves - Israel is dependent on universal national service (conscription) and have to maintain its credibility in the public mind...and a big part of that is to demonstrably cherish the life of each uniformed soldier). The Lebanese puppet state has consistently refused to rein-in these elements within its territory, and allows its land base and infrastructure to be used as a platform for anti-Israel paramilitary/terrorist activities.

But back to the issue at hand - there is absolutely nothing to be gained by Harper publicly departing from the stated positions of our allies on this issue. Why would he?

Many good points Truman, and I agree entirely. The time frame this is all going to take is probably impossible to know, but like you say, in the end the massive weight of the numbers will tell.

As for shipping the Jews back to Germany, Russia and Amerika, I don't really know what is going to go on in that regard either. Many certainly will in the end-, and as the walked and boatloaded there with the aid of Britain, who then occupied Palestines, and other European interests in seeing the "Jewish Problem" gone, they are certainly no less capable of taking them back. And no one is saying that will be done willingly.

On the other hand, hopefully for very many of the Jews who finally come to their sanity nearer to the end of this dirty business, they will be able to work out an "arrangement" with the Palestinians-, once they've returned their lands and homes back to them. And I really do hope all this turns out to be possible.

As for nightbloomers playing the other rightwingers card to the "victimization" card leveled at Palestinians and The Arabs, the "anti-semitism" card, everytime anyone levels any criticism at Israel, or doesn't by the essential premise of their stolen statehood, there is no need to comment. He just blathers on anyway-, near incoherently, playing his own game of solitaire.

:-) "Puhleeeze!" he says, wrists flailing.

Everyone knows?

I think not. LOL

Canada is not a combattant in the Middle East. Therefore, its primary interest is the protection and welfare of Canadian citizens in conflict zones. Canadian citizens have the right to the protection of the Canadian state (that's what it says in their passport!), and to the assurance that the Canadian government, through its actions, wil not jeopardize their safety. That's why Mr. Harper is out of line.

Truman:

Make no mistake about it, the Israelis are hated in the middle east because of their religion. Don't give me that crap.

The hezbollah is a terrorist organization - though many of the lunatics on this site believe that terrorism is a conspiracy....

Somebody tell me what the Israelis are supposed to do. They are merely trying to defend their border?

Reading posts from ignornats including Coyote and Truman anger me, but they also make me feel good. We are lucky enough to live in a society, where they are so safe and protected and oblivious to war and danger - that they can actually form the opinions that they do!

An interesting read at Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=AlS8ZQbsYHwzdXii3vYeKECs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

But the guerrillas have been fighting back hard on the ground, wounding three Israeli soldiers Thursday, a day after killing two. An Israeli unit sent in to ambush Hezbollah guerrillas also had a fierce gunbattle with a cell of militants.

In another clash, just across the border from the Israeli town of Avivim, guerrillas fired a missile at an Israeli tank, seriously wounding one soldier. Hezbollah said its guerrillas destroyed two tanks trying to enter the Lebanese border village of Maroun al-Ras, across from Avivim.

Israel has mainly limited itself to attacks from the air and sea, reluctant to send in ground troops on terrain dominated by Hezbollah.

But an Israeli army spokesman refused to rule out the possibility of a full-scale invasion. Israel broadcast warnings Wednesday into south Lebanon, telling civilians to leave the region — a possible prelude to a larger Israeli ground operation.

"There is a possibility — all our options are open. At the moment, it's a very limited, specific incursion but all options remain open," Capt. Jacob Dallal, an Israeli army spokesman, told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

A pointed and thoughtful article that needs to be said. While the conflict in the Middle East has a complex history, some solutions are simple. Gush Shalom, the best of the Isreali-Palestinian Peace movements, has been articulating a moderate solution for years. And don't forget the peace movement in Isreal (and Palestine) is very strong. We just never hear about it from Canada's monopoly media. Thank you Tyee for continuing to lead the way in critical thinking.

Great article, thanks.

Interesting article at the Globe here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060720.wticktock20/BNStory/National/home

"Just like you think the Israeli has every right to kill him so he can get some peace and quiet in his new home"

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't believe I said anything about rights. I wasn't there, when the deals were made, so that part I wouldn't touch. My point was, that this is about survival, and everyone will defend theirs. The 'arabs' have the choice of getting down to work and building a life for themselves on the land they do have. Do you suppose every country in Europe got back what was theirs after the second world war? not so. Many had to contend with resources being lost for good, and bringing the restitution principle to bear on Germany 100% would simply invite another disaster. The US stepped in and sunk massive amounts of money into restoring those of Western Europe's economies that had not been able to get on their feet alone.
It has been my understanding, that there are 'arabs', who are muslims, who live peacefully within the state of Israel, and who are gainfully employed there. The thing that distiguishes them from the ones outside the walls is that these ran away and started, almost from day one, a campaign to six-foot the new state. They were supported by some of the neighbours like Jordan, who had its own political bone to gnaw, and so they lived like guests in camps around the place and spent the time grinding their axe, not to mention being fruitful and multiplying.
Everybody together have created a monster, and everybody must work together to fix the situation. If you look at the map and see the relative size of the state of Israel, and then the enormous stretches available to 'arabs' as a whole, you have to laugh. If you would say the land Israel sits on is better, it became that way because they worked their butts off, something that a number of Palestinians also demonstrated as rewarding, as many became farmers and did well. If they could just rein in their rock-throwing sons and and rocket-hurling cousins, things could have worked out. But there is something attractive about remaining enemy-driven, it takes the onus off you for how your life turns out.

Wow, the Rhetoric of the Retired is certainly vehement....

Harper is making a huge mistake here bootlicking the Americans again. It is all about the demographic shift. About 40% of Canadian voters were not born in Canada. That figure is set to increase. This is why the Reform party does so poorly in urban areas.

And the NDP, too.

"If you would say the land Israel sits on is better, it became that way because they worked their butts off"

With enormous resources and security behind the project. Ideology is also a prime mover in the equation.

Coyote, who's "limp-wristed"...?

We can add homophobic as well as anti-Semitic to your list of credentials.

In Spain, anti-Semitism is new leftist trend
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278919,00.html

I hope every nation who is frantically trying to remove their citizens from Lebanon sends the bill to Israel...or Washington. And nice PR move, Harper. Green-light the attacks then gain sympathy by personally flying home with evacuees. And I guess "Shrimper" Mackay is getting orders from his beloved Condi.

The middle east is a huge mess. There is no way Stephen Harper understands what is going on, let alone knowing the solution. He seems to think he does and can solve this.

He doesn't even understand Canada. He will do what the americans tell him to do.

Perhaps the following will shed more light:

From the UK Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/martinrowson/archive/0,,1284262,...

United States to Israel: you have one more week to blast Hizbullah

Bush 'gave green light' for limited attack, say Israeli and UK sources

Ewen MacAskill, Simon Tisdall and Patrick Wintour
Wednesday July 19, 2006
The Guardian

Excerpt:

The US is giving Israel a window of a week to inflict maximum damage on Hizbullah before weighing in behind international calls for a ceasefire in Lebanon, according to British, European and Israeli sources.
The Bush administration, backed by Britain, has blocked efforts for an immediate halt to the fighting initiated at the UN security council, the G8 summit in St Petersburg and the European foreign ministers' meeting in Brussels.

"It's clear the Americans have given the Israelis the green light. They [the Israeli attacks] will be allowed to go on longer, perhaps for another week," a senior European official said yesterday. Diplomatic sources said there was a clear time limit, partly dictated by fears that a prolonged conflict could spin out of control.

US strategy in allowing Israel this freedom for a limited period has several objectives, one of which is delivering a slap to Iran and Syria, who Washington claims are directing Hizbullah and Hamas militants from behind the scenes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Murder by proxy - wouldn't you say? And our home-grown sycophant talks about "measured response".

Article author stated:"Israel's reasoning must be questioned. The destruction of infrastructure will actually make it more difficult for the Lebanese government to exert control. The difficulty will only be exacerbated if anger about Israel's disproportionate response causes support for Hezbollah to rise. "

This has been my thinking as well. Was nothing learned in Iraq? One of the biggest problems was bombing all the infrastructure. How do people evacuate? Is it assumed, as in New Orleans, that everyone has the means to evacuate?

I like the suggestion of an earlier post. In order to eliminate the Hezbollah threat-send in Mossad-they have done it before.

As to the big picture, would a a Palestinian state, recognized by Isreal and the rest of the world, end the violence? If so, get it done. If not, then what? Cancel your plans to visit the Middle East?

I am disappointed in our P.M.s comments, but give hime credit for possible facing a long flight with angry and tired evacuees!

As to the rational of the conflict, what would happen if a group of terrorists started firing rockets into the U.S. from Canada? Would Bush send condolences while he was bombing Canadian infrastructure?

Have you heard the Christian zealots in the states describing, and I would suggest hoping for, World War 3 (Dubya, Dubya, III)?

I would wager, that at some point as reosurces become more scarce, increased incidents of terrorism, continued military buildup, that conflisct is in the cards for the future. I am glad I have no kids!

Then again, my perspective is not one who was born into the areas of conflict.

Imagine how you may think differently if you were born an Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese, and so on.

Sometimes it makes me think the issues we face in this country and province, and debate vigourously on this site, pale in comparison.

P.S. I am not religious, but do have a spirituality derived from natural beauty and the relationship of all things.

this is just crazy. i'm sitting here actually thinking that there's nothing i can do to stop this behaviour of our government. nothing! but, well, call him "Steve" (and just hope he'll be my friend?)

Hate, hate, hate, that's all what the middle east is about! Complain about Ireals murdering of children - you are branded an anti-semite; support the arabs - you are an anti-semite; complain about the USA's involvement in the middle east - you are anti-american; even moderate support for the arabs - you are both an anti-semite and anti-american.

Isreal has learned well from the evil Nazi's and employ many of the same tactics. Who cares if ghildren are killed; who cares if children starve to death, they are arabs, non christians annd they are to be laid waste!

This castration of Lebamon will lead to furhter hatred and vengance, in turn leading to more suicide bomb attacks on Isrealies, which in turn will lead to more death and murder to many innocents, in turn creating more to sacrifice them selves in vengence.

And now, our fearless poodle dog, good friend of anti-stem cell Bush, Harper is going to cypress to help evacuate Canadians. What the hell can he do? Steer a boat! This is pure media hype to cover up his government inept evacuation handling and those 3 murdered Canadian children.

Poodle dog Harper, doesn't give a damn about Canadians, just his political hide!
And this for all the world to see.

I also thought it was interesting and revealing that a Palestinian representative, or citizen, I can't remember which, said he would like to see all the other groups/organizations/states, doing things on behalf of Palestinians; or justifying violent actions because of the situation faced by Palestinians. It sounds like they have become sick and tired of the violence committed on all sides. Seems like an industry of violence!

OOOPS!!!!!

I meant to say:

I also thought it was interesting and revealing that a Palestinian representative, or citizen, I can't remember which, said he would like to see all the other groups/organizations/states, STOP doing things on behalf of Palestinians; or justifying violent actions because of the situation faced by Palestinians.

Hopefully we'll have an election soon after the Liberals have a new leader (and hopefully not before then!). I do hope Canadians start paying attention...If so, they might notice growing evidence of Mr. Harper's immoderate, even right wing extremist stance on more and more issues.
His one-sided position on the current Israeli attacks on the Lebanese people is just the latest example (So far a 10 to 1 casualties ratio: 10 dead Lebanese for each dead Israeli -MEASURED, you say?).
Add to Harper's list:
- His declaration of a "war" (of continuing neglect) of Canada's aboriginals in his non-support of the Kelowna accord, and his recent comments of non-support for traditional aboriginal fishing rights (despite the Supreme Court ruling in favour of such rights).
- His opposition to more rational drug policies, including safe injection sites (already proven in to reduce harm in a number of such programs in a variety of countries in Europe, as well as Australia.)
- His do little or do nothing approach to the looming Global warming crisis (hey, he doesn't want to offend Alberta and its oil interests, does he?)
- His apparent cosying up to the unpopular, distrusted George Bush
on Afghanistan, Israel coddling, and by
selling out Canada's lumber industry with
a giveaway deal favouring the US at our expense.

I hope others will notice the growing tally of Harper positions which I believe
are actually offensive to the values of a majority of Canadian voters, and will vote accordingly by making Harper into a short blip in history in our next election!

Author:

"One thing is certain: Stephen Harper is helping to polarize a world already divided over the "war on terrorism" and Iraq. Consider how upset Muslims around the world must be, watching the effects of the Israeli onslaught. Consider how upset some of them could be at our prime minister's one-sided statement. What impact might this have on our security at home, and our soldiers' efforts to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan?"

He also invited attacks against the world's emerging energy superpower!

Smel from Calgary and Nightgloom, twit and twot, sh!t and shovel.

Bobb999:

"- His
selling out Canada's lumber industry with
a giveaway deal favouring the US at our expense"

Remember David Emerson saying he walked across the Commons floor to ensure he could best represent his constituents' and provinces' interests. Isn't Gordo saying the deal sucks for BC?

Being neutral means standing for nothing.

I'm proud of Canada's stance.

Coyote: You sound like a terrorist sympathizer, which means you condone recruiting and strapping explosive belts on children. What kind of person are you?

Here's a much better article than this pap:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/07/onward.html

Now, there you go again, putting words into my mouth. :-) LOL I don't recall using the term "limp-wristed" at all. (And in reviewing all of my comments, I did not.) You are being "hearing delusional", yet again.

Get it through your wee brain bloomer, you are not the topic of discussion here. Your "heterophobia" is showing again. :-)

The topic is regarding this latest consequence of the artificial creation of Zionis Occupied Palestine.

And reference to a Zionist link about "leftist anti-semitism" is scarcely evidence of such anti-semitism's existence at all. Interesting, but scarcely carrying much weight in an objective forum, for reason of its partisan and self-serving character. Zionism is as legitimate a subject of deeply critical discussion and examination as say communism, capitalism, fascism, liberalism, conservatism or any other "ism".

Is it just me or dose there appear to be a disproportiante number of Lebanese-Canadians living in the region;said to be 50,000 ?
Britain had 4,000 as did France which are much closer and have much larger populations .
Why so many ?
The Israeli response has been,very,destructive to future peace initiatives .
I believe the response is because Hamas now controls the Palestinian territory and they find that to be untenable .
Hezbollah has become the whipping boy for now to show Hamas that Israel means business .
NOw there is talk of a ground invasion of Lebanon to destroy Hezbollah which will inflame both Iran and Syria and prod them into greater action .
For Israel to achive the high ground they must stop the bombing of innocent citizens .

Coyote, Yeah, I misquoted you - you referred more precisely to my allegedly flailing wrists. We all know exactly what you meant.

And you're right, it isn't about me, so don't try to personalize it (as you always do on every thread you weigh into).

freebear - good point ref. the comments by that Palestinian about not appropriating the Palestinian cause to justify unrelated activities.

The Arab states have had a huge stake in letting the Palestinian plight fester. The Palestinians have been their useful pawns, and the issue has been a terrific lever with which to manipulate their own subjugated populations, not to mention Israel, and the entire West. Arab countries have their entire populations convinced that their messed-up societies and totalitarian political system and cheated lives are solely the product of the Jewish people. Israel sees through that charade, even if the crypto-anti-Semites on this thread and elsewhere on the political Left do not.

Neocon, how is it conservatives are happiest when people are dying?

We need to understand the history of the region and both sides of the issue.

Canada needs to act as an honest broker, something few western countries can do. We have done it in the past we can still do it, if we stop being "yes men" for the U.S..

Unfortunately Stephen Harper needs to know Canadian history as well.

Funny neocon, were not the revolted americans in 1776 terrorists? Were not the Isrealies (Stern Gang)in the 40's terrorists? Or the Vietnamese trying to oust the French from indo china terrorists? Was Gahndi a terrorist?

Be careful who you call a terrorist aas history has shown that many of yesterdays's terrorists are today's heroes.

It takes a lot of guts to strap on a dynamite filled vest and blow yourself up. I do support it, but one must try to understand why these men and women are doing it.

What is happening in Lebanon is a war crime, murder of largely muslim innocents by the Isrealies who have tacit aproval from the Americans, the Brits, and our very own poodle dog Harper. Remeber that when a bomb explodes in Montreal's, toronto's or Vancouver's metro. Or when a aircraft flies into a building. The isrealies have set the precedent for retaliation up a notch.

A coarse and counter-productive generalization if there ever was one. Even mainstream TV offers docs and commentary from "the Arab Street" that suggests feelings are much more nuanced than this.

hannibal says

Yes it makes one wonder,just what is going on, and, again problems in the world due to, R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N-S.

Skip Tracer - If there is more nuance there, I have seldom encountered it, neither in the Arab media, nor in the anti-Israel flyers circulated on campus by Arab and Socialist groups, nor in my face-to-face discussions with Arab friends of mine. In the latter case, even the moderate and (seemly) totally assimilated ones betray a deep-rooted cultural animosity towards Israel and Jews collectively, not dissimilar to the ingrained family-inculcated anti-Semitism of some Canadian-born children of Eastern European parents that I grew up with. You can still occasionally find second- and third-generation Greek Canadian kids speaking hatefully of Turkish people, just to provide an alternate example. Such resentments & hatreds take generations to fade away.

Woody, it's important not to confuse religion with politics. When religion and politics ride in the same cart, the whirlwind follows. If you take a close look at the historical record, the major abuses have always occurred when political forces appropriate the religious sphere for political ends. Our own notorious example is the Spanish Inquisition (or the St. Bartholemew's Eve Massacre in Paris), which was actually a political purge by the aristocratic secular oligarchs who had usurped leadership of the inquisition (and the Paris massacre was engineered by the Royal family, namely Catherine de Medici and her sons).

I see much the same thing happening in the Middle East, where God is being invoked for political goals that exist quite independently of the faith traditions of that region. You would still have conflict there even without Islamofascism. You'd simply have another kind of totalitarianism.

The entire region is made up of artificial creations based upon colonial and imperialist administrative divisions. The Romans didn't start the process, but they did change the name of Judea to Syria Palestine after the expulsion of the Jews. The Romans also tried to change the name of Jerusalem, but that didn't take hold.

Israel's future? http://thismodernworld.com/3005
Just some Israeli children writing about the attack on Lebanon.

Hezbollah know exactly what Israel will do if attacked: they respond disproportionately with limited discrimination. Kidnap an Israeli soldier and it becomes completely indiscriminate. Given that Hzblh had to know how the Israelis would react, it follows that they accepted and anticipated the damage they would sustain. The real objective of this was to destabilise Lebanon, something completely counter to what Israel needs on their northern border, and return the state to chaos. Who benefits from Lebanon becoming an issue once again? Iran has the spotlight pulled off them to a "summer replacement" involving one of their clients. Syria may have some residual desire to get the hooks back in Lebanon. The US is upset that Syria has been relatively "obedient" and wish to invade something that is easier than Iran: find something to get the Syrians involved and then hit them. Ironically, Israel has the most to lose after the people of Lebanon but the predictability of the IDF guaranteed that the Israelis would eagerly get involved in Lebanon again without considering the consequences.

In all of this it saddens me deeply that Canada has lost its traditional role as a peace broker .
Harpo does not speak for me or for many rational Canadians .
Why would they listen to us now after those stupid"Measured response" comments .

There you go again nightbloom, with your broad, sweeping generalizations.

"We all know?"

Again, I think not.

Your narrow anti-Arabism is showing through its threadbare covering again.

Grumpy,

Many outstanding comments and observations from yourself-, and many others above, of course.

Another sweeping "coarse and counter-productive generalization" from this shallow and conventional thinker yet again, for sure.

Ignored, of course, is the long history of western colonialism in this region of the world, which installed and has since financed and provided military assistance to these "totalitarian regimes", and directed them towards controlling their own people's democratic aspirations-, led by the current leading colonial aspirant in their world, the US Empire. And if you don't think the Arab masses have a deep rooted desire to achieve "true democracy" themselves, then you understand dick shit about the region and these peoples, who, other than their particular religious predilections, are not a whole lot different in their needs and wants than the rest of us here.

Nightbloom has a serious and deep problem that is rooted in his intellectual, class, and anti-Arabist snobbery, and actual religious bigotry . He attempts to throw us off its scent, of course, with loose accusations of anti-semitism himself, but, I suggest, few are likely really fooled here.

He is here, defending the same actual positions as are occupied by such as neocon, Capitalism and all the other longtime neoconservatve wingnuts here. And one is actually identified with the ideas and political positions one advocates and defends for, not what one might actually think of himself, or what labels one might use as a personal cover.

If nightbloom is not obvious enough to you by now, then maybe taking one's head out of the sand might help.

Coyote

Thanks for clarifying your position that Israel has no right to exist.

Interesting article: An agreement by moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas with Hamas to nudge it toward recognizing Israel got lost in the Hamas shelling of Israel and its June 25 abduction of one Israeli soldier in the hope of freeing some of the 1,500 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.
Israel retaliated with bombs, sonic booms, the arrest of cabinet ministers and MPs, and the killing of about 100 Palestinians.
"It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament. A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization."
Israel has an inalienable right to defend itself against terror, with proportionate force and an obligation to protect civilians during hostilities. It has a right to exist, indeed thrive. So do the Palestinians. One is not possible without the other.
Despite all the militant Arab bluster of driving Israel into the sea, nobody can. Yet, for all its power, Israel won't have peace unless the Palestinians have it as well.
Harper is either ignorant of this reality or chooses to ignore it. Now that he has made his choice, Canadian voters will, too, in due time.
If the Tories fail to procure a majority in the next election, their failure to crack through urban Canada and Quebec may be attributable to this moment when their leader's Stockwell Day-like zealotry got exposed.
If the Tories fail to procure a majority in the next election, their failure to crack through urban Canada and Quebec may be attributable to this moment when their leader's Stockwell Day-like zealotry got exposed.

Harper's mistake is of far greater magnitude, both internationally and domestically, than that of Joe Clark in 1979 when he pledged to move the Canadian embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Harper may also be too ideological or too stubborn, or both, to recover, as Clark did by dispatching Robert Stanfield on a mission to the Middle East.

Quebecers tend to be more pro-Palestinian than English Canadians. That the Canadian family killed in Lebanon was from Montreal, and that most of the stranded Canadians there are from Quebec, can only add to that sentiment.

It is a mistake to see Harper's stance only through the window of our domestic ethnic politics, between the 350,000 Jewish Canadians and the 650,000 Muslim Canadians.

Half the Canadian Arabs are Christian, and not all Jewish Canadians agree with a military solution.

The issue also has wider resonance, as seen in the boycott call against Israel by CUPE Ontario and the Toronto branch of the United Church.

Finally, the struggle to keep Canada's voice distinct and separate from that of the United States is bred in our bones.

It is more urgent, not less, under a president whose deeply flawed vision has left even a majority of Americans distraught over what he has wrought, both at home and abroad.

Haroon Siddiquile

It is ludicrous to be on any side other than the side of innocent people who want to live their lives in peace. These people exist on both sides. Let's not forget Israel is also in the clutches of the reactionary right and within Isreal many Jews are are fighting for and believe in social justice. In fact social justice is/was a large part of the Jewish diasporic identity. The Yiddish word that speaks both of justice and identity is Yiddishkait. It is ludicrous to be on any side other than the side of innocent people who want to live their lives in peace. These people exist on both sides. Let's not forget Israel is also in the clutches of the reactionary right and within Isreal many Jews are are fighting for and believe in social justice. In fact social justice is/was a large part of the Jewish identity. I can't recall the Yiddish word that speaks both of justice and identity: Maybe someone can post it. And, some of us remember the murder of Anwar Sadat.

Really Jews and Arabs are both Semites. They used to be friends. Actually, they are related. To back one over the other is crazy. Also, because of the current murderous elements on both sides one can not have dominion over the other. This is only common sense.

Now, Canada. Oh, we are in trouble having just received a devastating blow from our own prime-minister. What message did his office just give to all non native born Canadians? You aren't Canadian at all. What will that do to our society? To some of us his betrayal will come as no surprise, but to many others it will. I think this is his Katrina. I think those words and lack of action awakened more than a few Conservative Canadians who do still believe Canada has an obligation to her citizens on the world stage at least! A whole family died! Canadian little children. I don't think his publicity stunt bringing our airplane and his photographer will mitigate it either. I think he really showed himself to be who he is. Just as the National post chose to show very upset Israelis on most of its front page and beside it a small two column report about the Canadian dad sucumbing to his injuries showed they also do not care about Canadians. This editorial choice was really bizarre because the victims were Canadian. If Arab only they could have gotten away with it.

Also, there is a theory that the actions by the Israeli gov't is to justify the US invasion of Syria (pretend open mike anyone? Who knows) or Iran which is part of the Neo-Con's plan and which otherwise can't be implemented because of Bush's loss of popularity. What clutches we are in! Let's recocognize it's decent people of all faiths and races vrs these indecent people. Very sad.

And, did you notice the Arabs we are seeing on TV are not adherents of radical Islam? I wonder how long that will last? I've noticed how in the first Gulf 'war' the Iraqi women were wearing Western dress. And, we know under Sadam they were professionals, held positions of authority. Now, they seem to be wearing full burkas! Sometimes I think the neo-cons invaded Iraq because they had universal health care and education!These people are sick.

To Nightbloom: The CBC did a radio doc a few years ago analyzing the early school ciriculum presented to Palestinian and Israeli children. In both cases, history was skewed, facts missing in order to portray their respective peoples as holy and righteous. That is repugnant. Stop letting Israel off the hook. I've heard enough anti-Arab sentiment from Canadian Jews to know it takes two to tango.

Sorry re typos and extra paragraph. As usual. lol

In case anyone (read nightbloom) imagines that my comment shows that I have some kind of preference for Arabs over Jews--or any other group on this planet...what I was basically pointing out is my suspicion that, because the existence of the state of Israel depends only upon its ability to wield a bigger sword, this necessity brings it in line as living proof of the adage: "if you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword."

And what does Israel's existence depend upon today? Is it not its massively superior military force along with being the secure (temporarily, perhaps) surrogate of the United States in that part of the world.

Certainly not upon the goodwill of its neighbours, as does Canada's, for instance.

This is a pathetic and sorrowful way to maintain a sovereign entity. And so it seems to me that given the population of Israel as five or so million Jews and 2 or so million Arabs, even a perfunctory look at the map might suggest that this condition of Israeli force of arms superiority will not last forever--and sooner or later, especially if America has a change of heart, and given the liklihood that the American people will come to understand that the Iraq war, for instance, was really fought in order to protect the state of Israel, it will have to face up to all of the hatred it has fostered among its neighbours.

No, nightbloom, I'm not Anti-Semitic or anti anyone. I feel just as sorrowful for the Jews who have gotten themselves into this pickle of military necessity, as I do for the Arabs whose lands and very houses were stolen so that a persecuted and tormented group of Europeans could have a state to call their own. If I believed in a devil I'd think the whole disgusting scenario was invented by it.

Nothing will change in the long run except that the toughest guy, with the best friends, will win.

And I doubt if I'm the first to notice that one person's terrorist will be another's freedom fighter.

See Menachem Begin, Irgun, King David Hotel bombing, Jerusalem.

Good one, Coyote. That's right - I was brought up in a Madrass school for white Canadian boys with fanatic tendencies. Now run along and take your medication.

Skip Tracer - I watched that documentary. I agree that their is prejudice on both sides. But you have to look at the real world results too: why do Arab protests at Concordia and elsewhere turn violent & blatantly anti-Semitic? Why was the Israel Day display at my Alma Mater literally torched and defaced with "Intifada" slogans overnight, while participants in the events were verbally and physically assaulted, and targetted with on-campus harassment for months afterwards? Who is manifesting a pattern of chronic anti-social behaviour towards women, other minorities, and gay people? Why are Arab boys raised to strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up in Israel and elsewhere in the world?

These are quantum differences in outcome which cannot be relativized away. If you're going to try to relativize the collective behaviour of Jewish and Arab citizens within the liberal democracies, you have to honestly to account for the huge differences in outcomes - We don't have to worry too much about what our Jewish citizens are up to. I wish I could say the same about the other demographic group in question. There are certain realities which can't be ducked here.

Just another "step" in the PNAC policy of endless war to mold the world into a more easily exploitable vessel in which to pour the corporate hemlock of the nouveau Amerikan Dream:

From the site, "Just Another Day in the Life of the Empire" by Kurt Nimmo:

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=466

"In fact, the mass murder campaign currently underway in Lebanon has little to do with Hezbollah, as our pro-Israel corporate media tells us, ad nauseam.

Instead, it has to do with “order out of chaos,” rendering Arabs and Muslims helpless, destroying their societies. It has to do with balkanizing the Middle East, reducing once organized societies to mutually hostile tribal and ethnic factions, forever at each others throats, and thus exploitable and malleable. It is an updated version of British colonialism, the time-tested divide and conquer strategy.

If you require and example of this, look no further than Iraq where “civil war,” externally imposed, works like an acid on the political and social fabric of the country, if indeed you can characterize what remains of Iraq a country. It is devolving into a patchwork of mutually antagonistic factions, tribes, religious sects, a situation created by false flag terrorism straight out of the neocon Pentagon.

Syria is next.

Enter James “World War IV” Woolsey, former CIA spook and Booz Allen Hamilton VP.

Following on the heels of Newt Gingrich and William Kristol, Woolsey told Fox News loudmouth John Gibson that Syria needs a heaping dose of shock and awe (see video excerpt on the Crooks and Liars website) and this will serve as a prelude to doing likewise to Iran. The irascible Gibson asked why the United States simply does not go after Iran now and Woolsey admitted such things are done incrementally, in steps.

First Syria, and then Iran, along with North Korea."

What we are witnessing is another bloodied step along The Yellow Brick Road of PNAC Sheer Madness.

"Reality in Lebanon", video slideshow:

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=463

Okay, lets have a measured response.
Hezbolla fires of a missile, and then Israel fires off a missile, hezbollah then fires off another missile and Israel fires off another missile. This is repeated until the second coming.
How stupid can you get. What kind of way is that to defeat an enemy and win a war. Stupid, stupid, woosey.
Imagine if some Mohawks from Ontario, crossed the border and kidnapped an American soldier. America asks the govt. of Canada to have the soldier returned and the Govt. of Canada says there is nothing they can do about it, because they don't control the Mohawks. What would you expect the USA to do ? Just forget about it ?
Nothing but total defeat of Hezbollah and Hamas is acceptable.
Harper has said he supports the right of Israel to defend itself. I agree.
The PM is scoring big points on this. Look for a majority govt. for CPC. And to all you Jew haters, I am giving you the finger. To Israel I say, give em hell.

Hannibal says,

Very interesting observation, is it possible that this is the driving force behind for Quebec to separate from Canada, creating a new Arab , Muslim state on our east coast, hum interesting.

So tell me, IMAC, after Israel has destroyed Hezbollah (which most Lebanese consider to be their protectors) and (Hamas), which was fairly voted into power...then what? Israel's still left with two or three hundred million neighbours who still hate them.

Right? Or Wrong?

If they were intelligent and competent and not interested in a wider agenda they would send in an elite force to keep the dust down and get what they needed done. They wouldn't start bombing the place.

And they always do this of course.

Um, the Russians? Poles? My Greek neighbour who's been here 40 years and hates women, Sikhs and anything else that moves or disagrees with him?

Um, because the US wouldn't sell them a fleet of Apaches?

From TNR:

On a day of remembrance for the gay teens hanged in Iran a year ago today, it is sadly worth noting a new United Nations report which adds yet another layer of detail to the horror that is Iraq:

16. UNAMI HRO has received several reports indicating that, since 2005, homosexuals have been increasingly threatened and extra-judicially executed by militias and "death squads" because of their sexual orientation. It is believed that such incidents are underreported, because families are unwilling to admit that targeted members were homosexual for fear of further abuse. It has been difficult to independently verify the information received due to the fact that members of this group maintain a low profile, preferring instead to go into hiding or leave the country.

17. From October 2005 to 30 June 2006 at least twelve homosexuals were reportedly killed in targeted attacks. Militias are reportedly threatening families of men believed to be homosexual, stating that they will begin killing family members unless the men are handed over or killed by the family. In March 2006, a 29-year-old man was kidnapped in Baghdad and his family threatened for allowing him to lead a homosexual lifestyle. The family paid a ransom for the man's release but the mutilated body of the kidnapped victim was instead found dead a few days later. In another case reported a homosexual man was allegedly victim of "honour crime." It was reported in the press that the man's father was released without trial once he explained that he had hanged his son after discovering that he was homosexual.

Here is UNAMI's Human Right's Report quoted above:
http://www.uniraq.org/documents/HR%20Report%20May%20Jun%202006%20EN.pdf

The many statements by politicians and in the media that Israel is a victim, and is therefore justified in killing civilians and flattening houses, bridges and power plants, demonstrate that international relations are still at the Stone Age.

Victims in a modern society under the rule of law are not allowed to retaliate against their aggressors by killing their relatives or destroying their houses. The state acts as third party and, through the police and the courts, keeps order and determines guilt, punishment or reparations.

A similar system is needed at the international level. While elements of it are in place, they are not yet well accepted by the international community. This conflict has gone on for decades. One can find victims, aggressors and accomplices on all sides. Choosing sides is not helpful, it just perpetuates the chaos.

mjf - How can you guarantee such a supranational policing system will not itself become subject to political forces and be co-opted as simply another tool in regional power-plays?

It's important to remember that liberal internationalism (and the mechanisms that embody it) has already failed the Jewish people once. They know that only they can ultimately account for their own security and survival.

mjf, Stephen Harper has chosed sides unfortunately it is the side that leads to more death and destruction.

Goddamn fine piece of writing and analysis, Truman. I wish I could have written it as well. (This time it was your turn to one-up me. :-)

I applaud the clarity of your vision here.

Though Lynn gets the big picture at least no less well, I think.

What is actually occurring in the larger Middle East is a joint venture of the US Empire and Zionist Occupied Palestine, or Israel if you absolutely must in order to understand. The latter could not exist without the largesse and active assistance of the former, and the US Empire desparately needs Occupied Palestine (Israel) to help it control and degreade the Arab masses and their societies, such that they are more amenable to their colonial control. It is a you scratch my back and I will help you endure in an unsustaining Arab sea, mutual dependancy.

What Lynn describes as a reduction of Arab society into total and complete tribal fractionalism is the aim, and will be the result if US imperialism succeeds at its current military "colonial adventure." And it serves Zionist Occupied Palestine's strategic aim and need as well, that this occur.

It is the underlying basis for what is occurring in the Middle East, only thinly wrapped in faux western style "democratic" trappings and rationalizations. And it is only the most cynical, convoluted and shallow "Western style" intellectualism, steeped and educated in its academic ruling class assumptions, who can actually manage to rationalize it as something progressive.

My wish is for a victory of the Arab resistance and peoples, and that there can at the end be a humane result for the long suffering, used and abused Jewish masses as well. For really, as others have pointed out here in one way or another, both have been near equally abused and used by the same fascist/imperialist forces.

Truman;
Right, there will always be hundreds of millions of neighbors that will still hate the jews. What's your point ? That they should just give up and affect a mass suicide ? Why don't they have the right to fight to save their nation ?

Right. I know you're interested in this subject for obvious reasons so you should also know that these are exteme expressions of what is going on in Eastern bloc "Catholic" nations as we speak. And you forgot recent developments in India and elsewhere. It is raw, primitive, backward behaviour that all peoples have indulged in at various points in their evolution. In other words: can the anti-Arab bias. Its boring and stupid.

Skip Tracer - Can the anti-Israel bias. Its boring and stupid.

Has Hezbollah released the soldiers yet? Has Syria and Iran disavowed Hezbollah? Have any of them reaffirmed Israel's right the exist? No on all counts.

That they should seriously sue for a peace with the Palestinians, by recognizing the injustice they have committed against them. Negotiate a "single state solution" with the Palestinians that recognizes the Palestinian right of return to their homeland and properties. It means that the Jews must be prepared to content themselves with a minority position within that new "single state entity" of course, but that's "democracy" and they are the newcomers. (And there may have to be some drawdone, repatriation back to Europe, Russia and the US of relatively recent Jewish arrivals, I don't know. That is for them both to work out.)

Such a course, which even many "non-Zionist" Jewish groups have long advocated, is the greater likelihood course to produce a quicker peaceful outcome here.

Too reasonable for you? Prefer instead the current militant Zionist-US Empire course?

Yea, it's working and is likely to work alright.

Crawl back into your little US crotch love nest, neocon bootlick.

And eh, Skip Tracer. A lot of good stuff you are writing in this thread brother-, unless of course you turn out to be a sister. :-) ("Though "I think" I hear a male voice." he said, just before he put his foot in his mouth-, again. :-)

Nightbloom: If your comments about Concordia University are as accurate as the rest of the "facts" you cite, then you are living in a fantasy world. Arab protests turning anti-Semitic and violent? I presume you are referring to one protest to prevent an accused war criminal and former Israelie PM from speaking. That protest was organizaed and attended by many left wing Jews. The so-called "violence" was breaking a window, which occurred because mostly Arab protesters outside a building saw police manhandling a Jewish protester (from Vancouver) and they broke the window in attempt to help him. Thus the notorious "anti-Semtic" event was really an example of cooperation between Jews and Muslims/Arabs.
There is more to reality than CanWest-produced propaganda films.

The author of this article, Michael Byers, is to be admired.
I assume he is, however he was prudent to begin his article with the declaration that he is a friend of Israel. The state of Israel has a way of exercising its own terrorism in the form of harrassment.
There is absolutely no doubt that Israel has overreacted here and it is a sad day for Canada to have a PM who condones this destruction of human life.
As Byers wrote, by aligning with the U.S./Israel, Canada has removed itself from a mediatorial position and further endangered the lives of our young soldiers.
The media reports that this has cost Harper votes in a next election. I hope it's true although we all know how short the voting public's memory is.

I think the answer to the whole thing is fairly obvious, if not easy.

Isreal must cease to be a religion-based country, and become legally pluralistic.

The Palistinians (and other Arabs and Muslims) must accept that all Isreali individual people have a right to live there too, in peace and free to practice their religion peacefully.

They both have to realize that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all technically warship the 'same God'.

Jeruselem must become a place of global celebration for people of all (or no)faiths, and an enduring symbol of peace.

It is that or nuclear halocaust. Take your pick.

Of all my spelling errors, I think 'warship' for 'worship' is the most ironic.

I prefer the current militant Zionist-US Empire to your lily livered, wimpy, misguided attempt to drag down our standard of living and plunge us into a dark Muslim dominated empire. You can shove it buddy. I am backing our fearless PM and shunning your stupid wish to advance poverty.

Here's how the Swedes are evacuating their nationals. Another example of how superior a socio-democratic state is compared to the so-called free-enterprise system that some so actively promote at the expense of all Canadians. The truth is leaders of the 'cult of the free-enterprisers' can't respond to any crises. They're too damned stupid. Which is why they are drawn to that system in the first place. Oh that and they get to express their bigotry and make money that under a fair system they couldn't because they can't really compete under any fair system.

If Harper wins another election we too can look forward to more Soviet style incompetencies. But, he won't. The neo-cons are on the decline. The other Conservatives have split with them in the US and it's only a matter of time, which is why they are trying to escalate this conflict into a world war.

http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelocal.se%2Farticle.php%3FID%3D4384

Historically, Palestine has NEVER existed as an independent state. As for more recent history, from Wikipedia:

The UN Partition PlanMain article: 1947 UN Partition Plan
On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. Jewish leaders (including the Jewish Agency), accepted the plan, while Palestinian Arab leaders rejected it. Neighboring Arab and Muslim states also rejected the partition plan. As armed skirmishes between Arab and Jewish paramilitary forces in Palestine continued, the British mandate ended on May 15, 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel having been proclaimed the day before (see Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel). The neighboring Arab states immediately attacked Israel following its declaration of independence, and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War ensued. Consequently, the partition plan was never implemented.

Current status

West Bank
Gaza Strip
Map of the State of Israel todayFollowing the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. It was divided between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

In addition to the UN-partitioned area, Israel captured 26% of the Mandate territory west of the Jordan river. Jordan captured and annexed about 21% of the Mandate territory. Jerusalem was divided, with Jordan taking the eastern parts, including the old city, and Israel taking the western parts. The Gaza Strip was captured by Egypt.

For a description of the massive population movements, Arab and Jewish, at the time of the 1948 war and over the following decades, see Palestinian exodus and Jewish exodus from Arab lands.

From the 1960s onward, the term "Palestine" was regularly used in political contexts. Various declarations, such as the 1988 proclamation of a State of Palestine by the PLO referred to a country called Palestine, defining its borders with differing degrees of clarity, including the annexation of the whole of the State of Israel. Most recently, the Palestine draft constitution refers to borders based on the West Bank and Gaza Strip prior to the 1967 Six-Day War. This so-called Green Line follows the 1949 armistice line; the permanent borders are yet to be negotiated. Furthermore, since 1994, there has been a Palestinian Authority controlling varying portions of historic Palestine.

Israel exists as a nation. There will be no peace until the various Arab factions around Israel accept this. With calls for "Israel to be wiped from the map," Israel has every right to defend itself as it sees fit. They have attack Irsrael repeatedly over the past several decades and they have lost.

It is incomprehensible why so many on the left support the rights of the Islamo-fascists to wage a terrorist war (and destructive to any credibility as a "social responsible" group) but expect Israel, a democracy, to fight a war with one arm tied behind it's back. The Lebanese are the authors of their own misfortune, by allowing a terrorist organization to wage a war against Israel from Lebanese territory. The Palestinians are the authors of their misfortunes by refusing to stop suicide bombers, etc. and by refusing to accept Israels existance.

Israel has the power to eliminate the Palestians, but it has not done so. Infact, the have unilateraly pulled out of "Palestinian territories," only to experience further attacks. If the Arabs had the same kind of power, what do you think they would do? As for Hezbollah, the sooner they are eliminated, the better, for both Lebanon and Israel.

And, if we need any evidence of the split which we don't because it is obvious watch this video.

What will hapen to Israel when the US stops backing them?

I don't agree that Jews can live as a minority in Israel. It is true that there are Arabs who would 'drive them into the sea' and thus a two state solution seems best. Peaceful and prosperous neighbours. It isn't as if we don't have enough challenges to focus on to keep us busy creating rather than fighting for the next 100 years. But, as we've seen when people on either side who really want peace they are killed or politically destroyed.

neo-cons and their shocking immaturity and lack of empathy are bad news for Israel just like they are bad news for humanity.

Well, soon Israel will be 'defending' itself without the US taxpayers help. Both in aid and in clout.

Nobody wins unless peace is the priority.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but that isn't what this conflict is about.

harper's cynical and transparent stunt has all the class of a straw-hatted carney selling tickets to a bearded lady exhibit.
instead of doing something real and substantive like chastising israel for it's heavy-handed, SS style, completely disproportionate response we get an insulting photo-op and poorly organized evacuation.
good work, republican, damage-control, media spin-doctors.
p.s.-did anyone notice how HOT it was yesterday? Jeez it's a good thing we have the crack staff of rona ambrose, gary lunn and the oil industry studying the global warming crisis!

Coyote said: "Negotiate a "single state solution" with the Palestinians that recognizes the Palestinian right of return to their homeland and properties."

Now you're dreaming in technicolour. If you want the conflict to last another fifty years and beyond, you stick to that line.

Truman why are you trying to engage IAMC in a rational discussion ?
The man is clearly blinded by neo-con zealotry as his statements clearly indicate a,very,disturbed mind .

But back to the point: what can Harper's yay or nay really accomplish, save the erosion of his own constituency and the placation the liberal-Left constituency? Nothing any Canadian Prime Minister says on this matter is really going to alter the course of events.

The real question is how does Israel (and the world) deal with the fact of actually existing millions of Palestinian people.
Seems to me there are three (broadly speaking) choices:
1) Get rid of them. This could be done by direct genocide or it could be accomplished by making their lives so miserable they leave their homes for other parts of the world. Or a combination of the two.
2) A two-state solution in which Israel exists as a Jewssh state inside its internationally recognized (pre-1967) borders. For this to work, Palestinians must be given a viable state, not little bits and pieces of land that Israel does not want.
3) A single secular, democratic state could be created in what is now Israel. Everyone living there would have equal rights. Both Jews and Palestinians could have "a right to return."

I leave it for readers to decide which one of the above is the most just and which scenario Israel is currently embarked upon.

Number three is a non-starter, as you should well know. Number two was rejected by Arafat in what was arguably the greatest mistake of his 'career'. And number one is pure hyperbole.

Given statements by Iran and others, and given the ongoing support by Arab countries of anti-Israel terrorism, it's possible we may have moved beyond all of the options you mention.

redrivergirl says,

Nothing like putting your own spin on things, there lefty, first Sweden is just across the street from Lebanon in comparison to Canada, second they only had 5000 people to transport, versus 40,000 for Canada, third they haven’t rescued all their citizens there are over 100 Swedish citizens still in the most dangerous southern region of Lebanon.
This is very large and difficult task to under take for Canada , easy for someone like you to sit on your duff in you little red boat and bitch, I would suggest that if you can do better, do it , other wise shut your 5 hole , in addition you still have your option to move to your so called superior socio-democratic state.

I think you've hit on something Cosmo - but that really is dreaming.

Nightbloom says "Given statements by Iran and others, and given the ongoing support by Arab countries of anti-Israel terrorism, it's possible we may have moved beyond all of the options you mention."

Ah yes, the real neo-con agenda. Militarily defeat the entire Arab world by turning the Middle East into a Lebanon-like battleground where Sunnis fight Shiites and Kurds fight both and Americans have bases throughout the region to incite more violence and civil war.
Or as the British called it: Divide and Conquer.
Those who live by the sword will die by the sword Nightbloom. I just hope you don't take the rest of us with you.

Great link redrivergirl. The Swedes effective use of technology has more to do with scale and cell phone infrastructure than their political structure. Sweden had 5,000 people to evacuate, Canada has up to 50,000 according to the CBC. You can take a cell phone from Sweden and use it in Lebanon without much problem because of roaming agreements. I have not been to Lebanon, but roaming in Europe and the US with my cell phone has often been a nightmare.

Lebanon is listed as available to Telus customers with some accounts, and that is probably the case with the other major providers. I think you need a tri-band phone, and those aren't standard here so you don't get it unless you ask for it. Would the system have helped if Canada had attempted it? Probably to a small degree, depending upon the density of available phones and the efficiency of the grapevine.

Hey I Am Clueless: "misguided attempt to drag down our standard of living and plunge us into a dark Muslim dominated empire"

I would suggest our dependency on oil will already do that, minus the muslim empire part!

G.Goodwin:

"Ah yes, the real neo-con agenda. Militarily defeat the entire Arab world by turning the Middle East into a Lebanon-like battleground where Sunnis fight Shiites and Kurds fight both and Americans have bases throughout the region to incite more violence and civil war"

Don't forget the use of neutron bombs so that the oil infrastructure is left intact! Unfortunately you may be right, this may really be the hidden agenda.

Sad and scarey!

Coyote wrote:

This reads like you advocating ethnic cleansing and deportation.

Redrivergirl... Get real! You should add up the amount in foreign aid the U.S. taxpayer donates. It has to be well over $1 trillion.
That, more that anything else, has caused the resentment in the middle east.

Re: a supranational policing system.
Some elements that operate beyond the traditional state system are already in place, even tough still weak and in their infancy: The United Nations, the International Criminal Court or the International Court of Justice. And let us not forget the much criticized European Union. Europe was in a nearly constant state of war for centuries until the fifties, when a few visionaries started a trading area made up of just a few states. Since then it has grown to cover most of Europe. It is very complex, but the greatest outcome in my opinion has been NO WAR in Europe for 60 years. I remember going to school there right after the war (Forties) and being advised to study German so as to be ready for the next war.
So the example of Europe shows that there is hope, but certainly not from continued aggression and retaliation.

"donates" should be "has donated over the years"

Jack:

"donates" should be "has donated over the years"

Actually I would also argue that those donatins were also used to purchase american made military hardware.

All of the state and organizational violence has served the arms industry well.

Why is it that anyone arguing that Isreal is bombing a country illegally is anti Jewish. Anyone suggesting the "Other side" might have a point is called a terrorist. In the mix is our Prime Minister, by a very narrow thread telling the world how Isreal has the right to defend themselves. A couple of days later his External Affairs guy Peter,( I talk to the family dog, ) said he was surpised the Isralies would bomb Beruit airport and most any other piece of infrastructure. Is that a government or a bunch of clowns. The airport is easy to hit, just aim beyond the down town core, past the old slums and the beach and there you are.

So now Harper is "allowing" the Airbus he has following him around, to go and pick up some folks. It appears to me that if the bloody airports and the roads and bridges, hadn't been bombed the airbus and the other ones we own( compliments of Brian Mulrony way back when) could have been hauling folks out of the area. That part of the world is pretty small in aircraft travel times.

Steve could have sent the aircraft while he was sucking up to George Bush and friends. Now we hear two ships in Halfax are on standby. My God a couple of phone calls could have stopped this mess. But George knows who supports him and a midterm election is coming up.
Harper is a bit player but could just as easily kept his mouth shut. He thinks he is world stage but clearly is not . I noticed a local radio station going on this morning how those people arn't really Canadians, should pay their way back and stop complaining about the scow they were hauled away in had no food, water or places to lie down. It's their fault for going to vist the relations. The boat even got stopped by the Jewish military making the trip even longer. Maybe some of the women and kids on board were terrorists and the dumb Canadain government allowed it to happen

Those Canadians are afraid for their lives so of course will complain to a reporter who sort of leads them in the direction of complaint. One poor woman has a daughter over there on her own now and her government can't seem to fathom the idea that , by herself who knows where she might end up. Maybe Steve can go and sponsor that kids safe return. This group sickens me. The area might be volitile but does that mean if you go there, its tough luck if the Israli government starts bombing the shit out of the place? Too bad Steve didn't have a relation in the area, or better still George Bushie

Israel has begun dropping flyer's and sending audio broadcasts into southern Lebanon, pleading for civilians to vacate that area, as Israel is about to mount an attack like mo other into that region. They intend on totally destroying Hezbollah. There are mere hours before they unleash unprecedented destruction on this rats nest of terrorism. I hope they succeed and then attack Syria. Of course the lefts buddies Layton and Graham voted against Canada declaring Hezbollah a terrorist organisation. I say bye bye Hezbollah, your days are numbered. That anyone would support a group who's sole intention is to destroy Israel, is disgusting.

Did you also see Harper trying to greet evacuees on board? Not everyone shook his hand!

I know if it would be me on the plane as an evacuee I would bend his ear on Canada's reaction to the violence.

If you do not support Israel you are anti-semitic; the usual response by those that do not care or realize that their are more than one perpsective. That same tactic is used if you also care about the environment and working for the greater good and a functioning and resilient natural world, as opposed to working for the good of only certain people and trashing the environment while doing it

I am Clueless:

"Israel has begun dropping flyer's and sending audio broadcasts into southern Lebanon, pleading for civilians to vacate that area, as Israel is about to mount an attack like mo other into that region. They intend on totally destroying Hezbollah. There are mere hours before they unleash unprecedented destruction on this rats nest of terrorism. I hope they succeed and then attack Syria. Of course the lefts buddies Layton and Graham voted against Canada declaring Hezbollah a terrorist organisation. I say bye bye Hezbollah, your days are numbered. That anyone would support a group who's sole intention is to destroy Israel, is disgusting."

Hopefully you will volunteer to do the job and go overseas to do your part!

You're so blind to your bias you can't even distill my position from obvious clues such as the first post wherein I suggested they should keep this fracas down to a dull roar. In other words I supported Mossad going in on a measured, tit-for-tat basis ergo I don't have a problem with Israel doing what it needs to do in some measure. Nor am I opposed to its existence. Nor do I necessarily disagree with you regarding some of your points about the Arab world...but sometimes you read like a CJC press release.

Like many of you, I am like a fly to honey when the Palestinian/Israel and neighbours stuff comes up.

Isreal to me is a European enclave planted there in Palestine over the past 100 or so years. Most of the info used to justify it's being there is suspect,but, like all kinds of other movements of people, they're there, so people have to work out what comes next. Unfortunately Israel is pretty much a militaristic community with little real strength in the people or groups who would work with their neighbours in a civilized manner; I think there is basis to the accusation that they are stuck with some racism that excuses their apartheid ways.

It's ironic that when in nations around the world, Jewish citizens of those nations have been in the forefront of struggles for decency, tolerance, democracy and justice, that this nation of Israel, claiming to be a Jewish state, has such a shabby record in these areas.

The settlements seem to me to make a two state solution impossible. The offer to Arafat in the early 1990s was a bad joke; if you ever looked at a map of what USA and Israel offered you would see that.

I figure they should consider a federal state, with provinces having control of culture and education and a capitol region in Jerusalem, like Canberra, one adult one vote.
They would be a great example not only for that part of the world, but for all of us.

Several things in the current round of violence strike me, but one that is completely inexplicable to me so far is Israel's refusal over the years since their pullout to give the Lebanese the maps to where they planted mines in Southern Lebanon. Our gvt worked hard the past decade on de-mining around the world, and for our gvt now to give a blank cheque to this brutality, when they wouldn't even give up the mine maps, irks me just a tad.

(By the way, we have a rough idea where Israel gets its weapons, where does it's oil come from? Those dozens of sorties would be using up a lot of fuel.)

I see Coyote is still as brain dead as ever. It is your right to hope for an Arab victory but to say that that will allow for a just and humane result for the used and abused Jewish masses is pap. From the majority Arab view, the just result would be death to the Jews and you have to be brain dead to have not seen this coming from the mouths of most Arab leaders. Ahmacompleidiot, President of Iran threatens to wipe Israel out on a weekly basis and just guess who is the founder and major supported of Hezbollah; Iran. Many warned that there would be death and destruction after the US left Vietnam and the estimates run into the low to mid 7 figures for the amount os people slaughtered after the US pulled out. In your view I am sure that this preferable to the US standing up against the biggest killer of the 20th centry, communism. Secondly, you claim the Palestinians should be given the right of return and be able to reclaim property etc previously owned (I am paraphrasing). Just one question. If some aboriginal came to your house and demanded right of return to his ancestral lands that your house sits on, would you then just sign over the title and move on?

Macsquatch:

"(By the way, we have a rough idea where Israel gets its weapons, where does it's oil come from? Those dozens of sorties would be using up a lot of fuel.)"

I'm guessing you are being sarcastic-difficult sometimes to tell 'tongue in cheek' in e-mails and postings!

I think from Arab countries, who just might use the $ to buy weapons, maybe even weapons of mass destruction!

I guess we are all addicted to oil in some way or another!

Oilbertan:

Nice moniker! Black gold addict!

"If some aboriginal came to your house and demanded right of return to his ancestral lands that your house sits on, would you then just sign over the title and move on"

I would try and negotiate a lease or rent!

Bottom line: you can't have a "Jewish State" in the middle of Palestine, just because you did a couple of thousand years ago. (Yeah, the place (including modern-day "Israel," has been known as "Palestine" for a few thousand years--(look at a pre '49 or so map--unless you're willing to kill and keep on killing and bombing and eventually nuclear bombing as your neighbours get tougher and more willing and able to evict you.

This is not really rocket science.

Most of the weapons are from the U.S. - which statistically is the biggest weapon exporter in the world.

What a bloody sad state of affairs! Harper looks like a fool, what an embarrasment. It looks like the Isrealies are starting ethic cleansing already, by giving everyone 24 hours to leave "dodge city". What then, shoot to kill and lots of collateral damage.

In 1946, in Nuemburg Germany, German war leaders, generals, etc. were tried and many convicted of war crimes. The same for the Bosnian/Serb/Croation civil war, many are standing trial for war crimes. What about the Isrealies? Is anyone there going to be tried for murdering 3 wee Canadian children? No, because Isreal has a free pass from 1945. It seems this US client state can do what it wants, kill whoever they want and not be held liable for their crimes.

The same should hold true for Hezbolla and Hamas, but the Isrealies have assinated their leaders without trial!

Isreal has become judge and executioner of its rivals and no one says a thing.

This will only inflame the utter hate between Jew and Muslim in the area, resulting in an ever increasing tit for tat reprisals between the two camps. with isreal being the stronger, massive force killing many will be used and the Palistinians will result in cheap but effective suicide attacks.

Maybe we should curtail Isreals massive reserve of arms and try to force a comprimise solution through the UN. I doubt it will work though, as many in Isreal think they are the chosen ones and have a 4000 year right to settle in those lands.

Misery, misery, misery, that all what I see, until someone detonates a nuke and it will happen, then the s*** will realy hit the fan1

Hannibal - very harsh analysis but you're in the right ballpark.

I thought all you guys already knew where Israel gets its oil. No freebear, not the Arabs. (A bit from Egypt maybe) Except clandestinely by way of the Yanks! (how could you think the Arabs are selling oil to Israel?)

They get it from RUSSIA. Hard to believe, eh.

The Israelis, want to rebuild the old pipeline from Mosul in Iraq (built by the old British Palestine Mandate) to the Port of Haifa, and wait for it, GET THEIR OIL FROM IRAQ.

Honest, you guys. google: Where does Israel get its oil?

Why do you think the Israeli mainland, better known as the US of A, wanted to get rid of Saddam, who said he'd sell oil to the Israelis when the moon could be proven to be 50% cheese.

Next on the Israelis search to throw over the Russian suppliers and get some cheap oil: Regime change in Syria, maybe even Iran--as long as AIPAC can arrange the new theatres of war, and Richard Pearle's been discredited and Wolfowitz is over at the World Bank busy doing usury on the Africans.

Surprise, surprise. Israel's in the mother of all oil crises right about now.

Not to worry, though. The Yanks have a huge oil reserve slated just for Israel should the Russians turn off the taps.

For sure the "two state" solution advocated by Israel and their US Empire sugar daddy looks like it is going to fly.

Better that Palestine/Israel be truly democratized and made inclusive of its original Palestinian inhabitants, though they would instantly become the maajority of course-, precisely what the current Zionist rulers of Occupied Palestine fear. Nonetheless, the US Empire certainly has the means to convince them of the wisdom of that, or face a never ending war with their neighbours, as Truman Green sensibly sees, eventually going down to an ignominious defeat anyway, once the US Empire is finally and inevitably, as surely as Vietnam, forced out of the Middle East region.

So, the reality is, a one state solution that includes both Palestinians and Jews, with a Palestinian right of return to their homeland and properties, from which they were driven by Zionist terror at the "founding" of Israel, or in the end, a "no state" solution anyway, as the weight of time and region demogaraphics works its inevitable final effect on the Middle East problem with the Jews.

Another outstanding piece directly above me, Truman, on the source of Israel's oil. It pisses me off no end that again, you got to it first. :-)

Take a break, eh.

If he was packing a gun and rockets, and was way more numerous than I, and determined to kill me, I might indeed be tempted at least to try and negotiate a deal with him before I was eventually driven from his house and land anyway.

But then I have more brains than the average Zionist or Neocon Retard from Alberta.

You can not have a majority of Arabs with dominion over Jews for the same reason it isn't working for the Jews to have authority over the Arabs well being.
Both groups have to have assured well being.

The point about Sweden was they looked at Katrina and because they still believe and act for the public good and the well being of their own country they had a plan in place. Because their government structures haven't been sabotaged to the extent ours have been and finally, because they haven't a neo-con Leaside brat, who did nothing for a week except flame the fires, as their 'leader', they were able to respond!

Just as a matter which may be of some interest to some of you, re Middle East population numbers. This is a 2006 estimate at:

Israel: 7,109,929

Total Arab pop: 182,974,232

OR: Israel constitutes about 3% of the total population of the entire Middle East (which does not include Afghanistan.)

Redrivergirl,

Well, outside of the fact that you no more than I cannot really know that, and are merely hypothisizing, then I would suggest that the only alternatives are (a) that the Palestinians and other Arabs submit to the status quo, which hasn't proven doable either, and is no less unlikely, (b) there is a never ending war state of war which the US and Zionists will have to be prepared to shoulder the blood and treasure cost of, or (c) the Palestinians with their Arab allies will simply have to defeat both the US Empire and Zionists.

On the other hand, at a time of future imminent defeat anyway, the Zionists may be simply persuaded to look at the "single state solution" as indeed a preferable alternative to the only other option they are likely to have. Which is what I really think is the more likely scenario. That or the complete and utter route of the Zionists from Occupied Palestine, shortly after or around the time of the final defeat of US imperialism in the Middle East.

The single state solution may not currently fly with the Zionists, but neither does or is likely the two state solution with Hamas or the regional Arabs. Which means that war is the only remaining option until one or the other is entirely defeated. As Truman Green said somewhere above, look at the numbers an extended frame of time. It is not rocket science.

Indeed there are Jews in Israel currently advocating for a single state solution already.

http://www.counterpunch.org/ignatiev06172004.html

And a lengthy article, but definitely worth the read.

http://www.jfjfp.org/karmi_twostates.htm

Interesting debate. Too bad I came in on it so late. But Coyote is doing a good job against the neoconazis - as usual. But I do have a question. Pardon my ignorance about these things, but there are SAM missiles and they knock down bombers. Why doesn't the Lebanese military have any? They have a military of 60,000 people, after all. A few SAMs and the isrealis would have a much tougher time bombing Beruit. Secondly, there are also Stingers which can take down helicopters and RPG's that can take out tanks. The Palestinians suffer regular assault by helicopter gun ships and tanks but never seem to take one out. Stingers smuggled in from Pakistan did in the Soviets in Afghanistan. Palestinian territories butt on Egypt, Iraq and Jordan. Surely some of these weapons could be smuggled in? does anyone know anything about this. The thing is, if the Palestinians had proper weapons and could fight Isreal toe to toe they wouldn't need to resort to horrific tactics like suicide bombers. Why haven't the Russians, Chinese or the France figured this out and had their secret services do a little arms smuggling? They could really screw the Americans this way.

I think, Truman, you hit the nail squarely on the head here....

Thanks Michael Byers for a good article. I was glad also to see letters in the Toronto Star from principled Jews who had the courage to speak out against the exploitation of the Jewish faith for a Zionist political agenda. We keep seeing the Jewish controlled media trumpeting for moderate Muslims to speak out - well lots of them have and are much more loyal Canadian citizens than many of the above posters who are anti-Canada, anti-Arab/muslim. aboriginal and are living in Canada but are loyal to Israel a country half way around the world that really doesn't have anything to do with us except its supporters seem to try inflict hatred and divisivness. If you hate everybody that doesn 't think like you - why on earth don't you live there, then you can get your kicks bulldozing down somebodies home or shooting a few Palestinians everyday, or you could bomb their power plant that controls their water and electrical supply, or I guess as Steve did leading the charge even before Bushie did to cut off all aid and steal their share of tax dollars and revenue so that their workers could not collect their salaries to feed their families, oh ya if thats not enough you could hold them up for hours at checkpoints to get to a destination to see a relative 20 minutes away and keep old people standing in the sun just to be mean. Then of course there is also closing all the borders so nothing can get in or out and have Palestinian produce for export rotting in the sun. If that isn't enough you can just shoot them like fish in a barrel. Oh, thats right that is exactly what has already happened. How can you defend what is indefensible - you can't so you call everybody names like anti-semetic and anti-Israel instead of taking a good honest look in the mirror. Yes of course Israel has a right to defend itself. But you have to realize that other countries also have a right to defend themselves and resist being occupied. Muslims/arabs don't occupy and seem to try to take over other peoples countries, they don't have huge military with tanks, fighter jets. helicopter gunships and nuclear bombs. The U.S. and Israel do. Does that tell you something? It always comes back to the core problem of the Israel/Palestine conflict that will never be solved until both parties are willing to negotiate a fair, even handed deal with EQUAL rights for BOTH sides. Until that happens there will never be peace in the middle east.

Actually IAMC the US did allow the Fenians to attack Canada from the safety of US soil. We and the British Empire didn't invade the US in return.

Obviously Israel didn't think talking to the Lebanese gov't about how they could resolve the issue was worthwhile. And it is hard to think of why the Lebanese would agree to consider having their people and infrastructure bombed.

So clearly Israel decided to engage in a war against a neighbour already too weak to control its own territory in the hopes that Lebanon would become even further weakened. Like the Romans, Israel feels safer with weak neighbours rather than strong ones.

So what it comes down to is, Israel believes it has the right to invade any of its neighbours at any time. And its not like this would be the first Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

Unfortunately, as pointed out, Israel's long-term prospects are not good. In that light I don't understand their thinking. They exist by having a military powerful enough to defeat weak neighbours but not strong ones and the goodwill of much of the world.

They should have played their cards better if they want to maintain that goodwill because I doubt they will remain militarily strong enough to counter the disparity in birth rate between the two sides. When in a position of strength facing bad long-term conditions negotiation and "getting along" seems the way to go. Unfortunately that's lost on those who think military superiority will last forever.

This recent outbreak of conflict was provoked by Hezbollah and Isreal is well within its rights to defend itself and create a more secure situation itself. Evidence is mounting that Hezbollah acts with the cooperation of the Lebanese Army and they operate from positions that guarantee civilian casualties if they are engaged.

I realize that if you don't think Isreal should exist that, or any argument, will not resonate with you but people need to know there is another perspective sourced in history, facts and reason. Despite the invective and ad hominem on this thread.

There is no territorial issue on the Lebanese - Isreali border, Isreal has complied with all UN resolution in that area, unlike Hezbollah.

It’s really disappointing to read the blinkered, one-sided opinions presented by some posters here. How can Israel reach any sort of peace agreement with neighbors that refuse to acknowledge Israel’s existence? Why is it “illegal” for Israel to retaliate when rockets are fired at them or suicide bombers kill Israelis? What gives you the right to determine what an ”appropriate response” is when you are not the one under attack? You are incredibly naive, stupid people for thinking that Islamo-fascists are interested in your pursuit social justice.

Stan, do you really think those of us speaking out for social justice are for Islamo-fascists?

I think they are the same as our own fascists. Horrid disgusting psychopathic creeps.

You ask what gives us the right? Our tax dollars being misappropriated for the neo-con war. Our PM speaking on our behalf who condoned Israel and the US actions, those Canadian babies who are now dead and their Canadian family who are here devasted and finally, our membership in the human race.

I am for all the children and people who want to live in peace. Israeli, American, Lebonese and Canadian, every country.

It's okay for you to kill Lebonese children is it? Just colateral damage? Well the Islamic-fascists think it is and we're supposed to be different aren't we? If we're not, we're doomed.

So you support constant war as an alternative? I don't think that will work out. The Arab countries can lose wars over and over, Israel only has to lose once.

Because the targets weren't firing any missiles at Israel. Hitting the Beirut airport wasn't a mistake. It was part of Israel's strategy.

One shouldn't rush to be an apologist for a military that thinks its okay for a country to plan and carry out a strategy of putting another country back 20 years.

International norms? History of conflict? Common sense?

Thanks, and how did Germany's strategy of attacking its neighbours until they cheered up work out?

Anyway, I'm so sick of our own Canadian neo-cons. They can try to twist reality all they like. What's wrong is wrong. Whoever is doing it. There is something called Justice and it has a lot of energy behind it!

I know the Harper crew want us to fight over who's right in the middle east conflict and even how late the Canadian response to evacuate Canadians was rather than look at their bumbling last fortnight. That's for sure!

'Muslims/arabs don't occupy and seem to try to take over other peoples countries'

Then you should have heard the talk going on in a Danishs mosque some months ago, when 'they' didn't know there was anyone present, who weren't one of 'them', but understood the language. The talk was of how to outbreed the Danes and secure their country for Allah.

Did you not hear a journalist say the other day, that many evacuees do not want to go to Canada, for they have 'no ties to the country in reality'. So I guess the Canadian citizenship is just a convenience that will get you fished out of the soup, if things get hot in the place where you actually prefer to live.

How often has Hezbollah dropped leaflets warning of an attack? The onus is on the Arabs who do not acknowledge Israel to start doing so. How often has Israel attacked Egypt since they signed a peace treaty with Israel? See...that's all that it takes.

redrivergirl you should rename yourself to Blondrivergirl

Back to square one. Whenever these flaky Governments, yes Governments, like Hamas are actually unable to govern, because they ran out of money, because the US cuts aid, Yes the US provided a good chunk of the aid to the nomads, the first thing they do is attack Israel. It's a last resort. I mean they are screwed anyway. The attacks come from the Gaza strip, which Israel just turned over to the nomads. They also come from Lebanon, who they previously occupied. So turning over occupied territories doesn't seem to prevent attacks in any way.
In all cases of war right now, the aggressors, those that started it are Islamist. We that have been attacked, who try to defend ourselves are considered the bad guys. This is BS. We will destroy these aggressors. They better run and hide, because they are going to die.

So if Hezbollah warned Israel they were going to launch missiles at them that would make it okay? In a sense they have unless "We have missiles! Death to Israel" can be seen as an muddied statement.

Israel doesn't want another war with Egypt because they might lose. 1973 looked pretty touch and go for awhile there. The lesson is not to sign a peace treaty, the lesson is become as strong as Israel and you won't get attacked.

As Fiat Lux has often stated... our very human history, sadly, is the cyclical history of "The Oppressed becoming all-too-easily The Oppressor"

IAMC, genocide would solve the Arab issue, no argument there. But it might be hard to maintain international friendships. Instead of genocide destabilization seems the preferred path. Wanna declare war on the Muslim Brotherhood next and go into Cairo?

I'm not calling for ethnic cleansing. I only want to kill terrorists. Terrorists are easy to identify right now. The are primarily those that wish for the destruction of us, and Israel. Now if you want to cozy up to those people, Frank, go ahead.
But I don't why your blind hatred of America could cause you such a lapse in judgement.
I recall that when Egypt attacked Israel, the defense was so effective, that the armies of Israel could see a clear path all the way to Cairo. They could have taken Egypt. They didn't. Egypt hasn't attacked them since.
Why fock with these guys ?

Yes of course, I always like to have baby killers as friends. I'm having some of the Hezbollah missile people and some of the IDF people over for dinner on Saturday. Sort of a "let's kill civilians like its 1945" kind of thing.

Please IAMC, when have I ever demonstrated a blind hatred for Americans? Well over half of my address book are American friends I've met through work that I correspond with regularly. I disagree with American foreign policy and economic policy. For what its worth I also disagree with Myanmar's and if I had any Burmese friends I'd tell them so.

Taking Egypt? Little Israel is going to occupy a country of 80 million people? Good luck with that. The fact is Egypt demonstrated that its fighting quality had improved. And when you have a country of 80 million with decent weapons and a decent quality army (for the area) I can see why it was the citizens of Israel who were more ecstatic over Sadat's opening than were the people of Egypt. There should not be any illusions that Israel would be acting very differently if they thought Egypt would have sided with Hezbollah and Iran.

Frank

Your argument is counterfactual and counterintuitive. The reality is that Egypt has recognized Isreal's right to exist and signed a peace treaty. Consequetly there is peace between Egypt and Isreal and no outstanding territorial claims. The other nations and organizations refuse to recognise Isreal and be peaceful with Isreal and the result is they don't have peace and Isreal has no resaon to address their territorial claims.

Frank:

You have answered my questions with more questions...which means you have NO answers.

Explain the “common sense” of blaming the victim. For how long does Israel have to put up with rocket or suicide bomber attacks on it’s civilians before retaliating? That has been the history. Which international norms? Where does it say it’s ok to use civilian shields for protecting rocket launch sites? I bet you would change your tune if terrorists were trying to kill you or say your country doesn’t have the right to exist.

It’s also quite pathetic how you try to equate Israel with Nazi Germany - First, you have invoked Godwin’s Law, and second, Israel is not trying to take over the Middle East and exterminate the Arabs. A minor point you’ve missed.

So it appears that your idea of ensuring peace is to have Israel wiped of the map. You are definitely one of the stupid ones that I wrote about earlier.

Well Frank, I appreciate that you said " Israel would have acted differentleyif they thought Egypt would have sided with Hezbollah and Iran "
At least you are a realist.

Gray,

Is it? Is it "counterfactual" to state that there has also been no open warfare between Israel and many other Islamic states in spite of the fact that there are no peace treaties with those states. Lebnanon, which is certainly not the poster boy for Islamic fundamentalism, has been attacked on more than one occasion since 1973. Yet Lebanon has not threatened Israel. Its simply a weak state that has been unable to control its southern territory. But Israel not only punishes those who use that territory as a base, they also punish everyone in the entire country via bombing and blockade. They do so because of military superiority, it has nothing to do with Lebanon somehow being an impediment to their right to exist.

Remember folks, Isreal can do no wrong and criticism of it is anti-semitism! Wonder what is going to happen when the American people get tired of this endless conflict and stop subsidizing Isreal?

stan,

They don't. Just as Canada had the right to shoot Fenians who crossed the border into Canada from the US. We didn't however have the right to burn Washington, DC. The response has to be measured. When Air India blew up Canada didn't have the right to invade and occupy India and Pakistan.

Do you actually believe the harbours and airports of Lebanon were Hezbollah missile sites? I don't.

The Lebanese gov't threatens Israel's existence? You're in error. Its not unknown for American citizens to commit crimes in Canada. We don't take out North Dakota in response. The actions of Hezbollah should not be used to declare the entire Lebanese population guilty.

And to return your juvenile dig, if I moved into your house and made you sleep in the backyard would I be the victim or the perpetrator if you decided to retaliate? Somehow I think you'd be outraged at the thought of someone calling me the victim.

Then perhaps Godwin should come and arrest me? Or perhaps your historical education should expand beyond Hollywood movies and go a little deeper than 1939 and you would become aware that history didn't start with Hitler. Or have you never heard of WW1 or the Franco-Prussian War or the war of 1866 or the wars against the Danes concluding in 1864 or the revolts in German occupied Poland in the 19th century? Its you that invoked Nazi-Germany. That'll be Godwin at your door now.

In other words more war is the only answer you have to the issue of the Middle East.

To me, this is all about saying to Lebanon, are you a country or not? Great pains by all sides helped you become a viable country again. But just like on Desperate Housewives, Lebanon is like the neighbor who has a dark secret hiding in the basement. Hizbollah. A dark guest, who is on a mission of destruction, and is not a friend or defender of the Lebanese people.
Defend from what? The Jews? Israel has no plans of taking over Lebanon. So why the Hizbollah?
They are redundant, so let their leadership be eliminated.

If a psycho is hiding in your neighbour's house and shooting at you and
i) your neighbour is not being personally threatened;
ii) your neighbour is not being held hostage;
iii) your neighbour is not doing anything to stop the psycho,
then it is reasonable to assume that your neighbour is aiding and abetting the psycho. Not really a good neighbour, is he?

Frank

No that statement is not counterfactual but it is also not the same statement you made earlier.

Your recent statement reinforces the notion that if states are peaceful then Isreal will be peaceful with them. Hamas and Hezbollah have refused to maintain a peaceful posture with Isreal so Isreal has responded.

Hezbollah has emplaced their weapons among civilians ensuring that if Isreal responded to Hezbollah attacks there would be civilian deaths. Do you find that worth condemning?

For what it is worth I have sympathy for the Lebanese goverment and people still there is growing evidence of collusion bewteen the Lebanese government and Hezbollah. Since Lebanon cannot enforce UN 1559 Isreal has had too.

Woody wrote:

This comment reeks of misogyny and braindead adherence to north american diarrhea culture.

Of course, stan, in that case when you retaliate (without a word to the neighbour first) by blowing to smithereens your neighbour's house, his wife and his children within it, his visiting cousins, the cat and the dog, the car, and the vegetable garden ...what kind of a neighbour does that make you?

Will the real psycho please stand up.

In other words, terrorism is only moral, not to mention perfectly moral, when it acts on your behalf.

Arab vs Persian. There is a divide here. It's been Saudi Arabia vs Iran and Iraq. The Arabs will eventually side with Israel, leaving the Persians to be relegated to oblivion. Arabia will supply Israel with oil. The Wasabi's' are condemning Hisballah.
I see a split amongst the Muslims coming.

Great to read ya again, redrivergirl. :-)

lynn:

If shots are being fired from your neighbour's house then I think that the message being sent is loud and clear. You are pathetically twisting my analogy to make it look like it's the victim's fault.

Israel normally tries to minimize civilian casualties, unlike Hezbollah or other terrorists, who SPECIFICALLY target civilians.

Israel knows that they are bombing to destroy key elements of their oppositions leadership or power base. Those firing on Israel cannot even figure out how to aim the missiles, and are not caring where they fall.
It's a sad state of affairs when I see all these terrorist supporters lining up to post views on this website.
How brave they are, when they are irrelevant.

inkioko, are we a little snarly tonight, maybe a little pms-e are we, take 2 midal and try again in the morning.Good night you sweet little thing.

Gray,

I change my argument when others change theirs. If someone wants to argue that the only reason Egypt and Israel aren't fighting is because of a peace treaty I say they're delusional. If those same people then declare that the Arabs can't be dealt with and the Israelis should kill them I say what about Egypt, they're peaceful. If the argument then becomes that there's only peace because Israel is stronger than everyone else then I again say what about Egypt? None of those arguemnts is being "counterfactual" because all have elements of truth. I could be accused of being argumentative maybe but then I don't believe the world is black and white.

ed.

And there's no shortage of anti-Israel talk from other Islamic states but the only one Israel invaded was the one with the weak governance.

Is this a trick question? Because I'm going to go with A. Yes. However, perhaps Hezbollah placed their weapons where they did because that's where they had to be to hit Israel.

IAMC, I think you have been at this too long, really!

The future for our Arab friends:
- the overthrow of the 'House of Saud' and Wahabi resurgence in the region.
- Oil supplies to the USA will be curtailed, causing a massive recession.
- Isrealie war against Syria, Hamas, & Hezbolla.
- Civil war in Iraq, with an invasion by Iran.
- All out retreating war by the USA, which loses much international credibility.
- Occupation of the Alberta and the oil sands by our Southern friends, protecting their oil supply.
- Break up of Canada, funded by the USA.
- Quebec joins the EEC.
- The USA and the EEC will view each other as the evil empire.
- The arabs get the bomb.
- ?

stan,

Then Israel is not acting normally in this case because they are targeting civilians and their infrastructure unless anyone believes the Beirut airport and Lebanese harbours are run by Hezbollah. Clearly, Israel is targeting Lebanese civilians and the Lebanese economy.

IAMC,

They have already had their divides, almost going back Islam's inception, many of us simply tend to see them as being monolithic. They aren't.

It has been often said that Can West is pro Conservative and NCC, and sometimes whispered that David Aspers Israeli owned media's unflailing support to promote the U.S. integration of Canada was politically motivated to drum up U.S. support for Israel... as someone earlier mentioned with Harper, "you can't bite the hand that feeds you." In Harpers case, its Israel.

This current blip in history is an excellent example of just how much of a puppet sellout Harper really is. If Israeli soldiers started shooting Lebanese civilians in the head, Harper (or "shrub", sometimes known as a "little bush") would still get up and defend Israel. What a robotic puppet. What a shallow, plastic embarrassment for the country to see. Again. I can't remember seeing a leader this weak and nutless... and on an international stage, no less. Bloody embarrassing.

Bobb999: In complete agreement with your points. Hope all is well, buddy.
:-)

Or maybe the whole lot put together.

:-)

Wasn't it Moses that came up with a pair of stones... stone tablets (as he was from the stone age, after all) and loosely said, "if you run into some people that are a little funny in the head, stone 'em. Give 'em the laws of the Father."

What do Israeli's do when they run into groups that don't think like them?

Chuck rocks. These days, the rocks have become rockets.

And in times of peace/occupation, Israelis build walls. Anyone with a computer faster than 650mhz can google earth and should be able to see the wall being built around Palestine for themselves. Man, this is not one of my top 10 places to want to be. What did they, expropriate 14% of Palestines land to pay for the wall to be built around them?

really stan...not according to Louise Arbour, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and not according to Article 13 of the Geneva Convention.

Closer to the truth, I think is this quote:

"Israel has fought a lazy war, both morally lazy and militarily lazy. It is work to surveil enemy shipments. So, you just blow up the airport and the ports and roads and bridges, regardless of whether you have reason to believe that any of them is used by Hizbullah for their war effort. Just in case. It is a just in case war. You bomb Shiite villages intensively, just in case they have military significance to Hizbullah. Maybe they don't, and you've just blown up a civilian neighborhood and killed whole families. Where blowing up things has no immediate and legitimate military purpose and harms innocent civilians, it is a crime. It can be prosecuted, especially in Europe."

Frank:

I think it’s you who is ignorant of history. And don't try to weasle your way out of Godwin-comparing Israel to Germany is very transparent.

Feel free to scroll up and read my excerpt from earlier. “Palestine” is a name that the Romans gave the territory after they expelled the Jews from Judea. There was a possibility for it’s existence after the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine (UN General Assembly Resolution 181), but because the Arabs declared war against Israel (and lost), it has NEVER existed as a sovereign state.

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. It was divided between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. But now, the Palestinians and other Arab states demand that Israel recognize the Palestinian state, while they, at the same time, refuse to acknowledge the existence of Israel. The Arabs still haven’t realized that they are in no position to be making demands unless they learn to compromise.

If you were paying attention, I said earlier that there will only be peace if the Arabs accept the existence of Israel. So far, the only answer to the war that you have given is criticism of Israel.

BTW: Israel is targeting the transportation infrastructure because this is how Hezbollah is supplied. And if Hezbollah is firing their rockets from apartment buildings filled with civilians then they are the ones responsible for any retaliation against those buildings.

lynn:

What about the human rights of Israelis being blown up while sitting in a pizza parlour or riding on a bus?

What the hell is wrong with so many lefties? Why do you constantly criticise Israel and yet choose to ignore the Arabs' violence and complete inability to compromise? Israel has compromised many times, even though it has held the upper hand, only to be rewarded with more attacks against them. Don't expect Israel to always fight with one arm tied behind it's back.

I haven't read all the posts, But nobody I read has gotten to the core problem: Religion.

Isn't it time we grew out of our need to feel special, to rely on the little lies we tell ourselves about death and eternity? What is this special need we have, this huge insecurity that we blindly accept old wive's tales, when all around us are the proof of a more rational existence?

If I go down the street in the US talking to Harry the Invisible Rabbit, people would think I was nuts, but talking to The Lord, another conveniently-invented character, makes me blessed.

All religions claim to have the Truth, although that truth has varied widely throughout history. How do we know our present idea of God is the right one? Maybe the next religion will be the really TRUE one, . . or maybe God is really Mithras, . . or Ra, or one of the horrible Mayan Gods of the past, and we're all doing foolish things making sounds and gestures, and solemn thoughts for nothing?

Doesn't sound like something to kill for, does it?

Let's be honest: The religious are mentally ill. Sorry, but the belief in secret pals, invisible companions, and magical personages contradicted by science is not the description of a rational mind.

It's the symptom of someone believing what they want - what is convenient, what is comfortable.

We have to stop killing for mental illness.

stan,

Stop it stan, you can do better than that. Don't worship at the feet of some silly internet law. I could care less how many self-proclaimed childish internet laws I break in a day.

And the fact is, the Prussian state, later German empire, did fight every neighbour it had until it got its comeuppance in the 1914-18 war.

And this is important because...? So you're saying that it belongs to who? The Romans? Assyrians? Egyptians? Crusaders? Ottomans?

How long do people have to live there for it to be considered theirs? 1,000 years? So when does it belong to the Israelis?

.

Disagree, its the Israelis who are going to have look at the demographics of the region and realize they are in no position to be dictating terms like modern-day Ceasars.

And clearly many don't want to. So unless Israel has a plan to grow its population faster than the Arab world and never lose a battle there will eventually be peace when Israel ceases to exist. Is that what you want? The alternative is to use the space provided by the current military balance to work towards peace, not invading neighbours.

This is a terrible argument. A variation of it can also be used to declare 9-11 justified and the blowing up of Israeli buses and civilians by suicide bombers. What you're saying is that total war against civilian populations is justified because the ends justify the means.

When has Israel compromised or fought with only one arm? If they are bending over backwards to compromise why does their country keep getting bigger and the Palestinians keep getting poorer? Luck?

I assume Israelis would say the ends justify the means. The bodycount on the Arab side seems to be much higher than on the Israeli side and I doubt those were all mercy killings. How desperate does your situation have to be to decide blowing yourself up is the best you can do in your life?

How many thousands of Iraqis are being killed while they go about their daily business? Do they now have the right to invade whoever they want too?

Nice to see you all too, Lynn. :-)

The neo-cons think they can harness the military might of the US, not only to steal the resources of the world, but also to subjegate the Arabs once and for all. So any argument that suggests the vulnerability of this premise is dismissed. They really don't understand. They ignore history which proves oppression never prevails. They ignore the human spirit. They are under-developed. I can understand those who are afraid. Those who have lost loved ones and I can understand the deep shock, PTSD that Jews have because of the history of the holocaust. But, these neo-cons, Jewish and not, have other problems.
I think no attack on innocent people is ever justified. No matter what. I can understand the rage. I can't understand the like action on either side and for any peoples.

There is not a unanimous Islam. There are the Arabs and the Persians. Right now, the Arabs are condemning the Hizbollah, who are Persian. The conflict will be resolved because Arabic influences will censor Hizbollah.

Woody:

okey-dokey wood-packin-man... it would be kinda interesting to be pms-e.... but alas, that particular facet of human experience is forever closed to me. being an adult male with a tough manly rod, a hairy ass and face, and stinky feet makes me wonder if my assumed understanding of the word "sweet" is somewhat awry.

seriously though, and i'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your reply was tongue in cheek, is it really of any use to humanity to further disseminate "dumb-blond" type trash? i think patriarchy has us all brainwashed, and it is up to males to de-program ourselves.

IAMC,

There's also lots of Moslems who are neither. Within the religion there are also different groups and sects. Shiites and Sunnis as one example.

Nice to see you again RRG!

Frank:

Do you have a point to make? All you do is answer questions with more questions, make ambiguous statements like "the alternative is to use the space provided by the current military balance to work towards peace, not invading neighbours" or make completely erroneous statements like "why does their country keep getting bigger and the Palestinians keep getting poorer?"

It's because of people like you, with your warped, one sided morality and confused knowledge of history, that problems in the middle east persist.

Due to the early twentieth-century inbred British upper-class intellect, its diplomacy a failure in every major test in a series of world-shattering errors taking place over more than two hundred years, Zionists (and not Jews in the world at large, I insist) were given permission to appropriate territory from a people for whom Britain was trustee, and whose trust was violated by the signing of the Balfour Declaration, to no obvious benefit to Britain.
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0897/9708018.html

The rest of the world now has to fix this stupendous goof-up. Again. Arguing about whether Israel should exist or not is futile. It does exist, and that fact on the ground must be dealt with one way or another.

It's as if all those Americans who bought property at Whistler a few years ago suddenly decided they wanted Whistler to become part of the US. If we hadn't patriated our own constitution, who knows? Major might have been stupid enough to sign it over to them!

So how do we fix this? Most of you are well on the way to figuring it out, if you ignore the "help" you get from the trolls like Clueless. Honestly, don't feed 'em and pretty soon they'll go back to Little Green Footballs where they belong.

Part II

The legal solution is to sign up on the 1948 boundaries as delineated in UN Resolution 181. The 1928 Kellogg-Briand treaty prohibited all signatories (currently most of the UN) from profiting by acquiring territory by military conquest. UN and other treaties since then have confirmed it (for all signatories, not just the K-B ones). The failure of K-B at the end of WWII does not alter its effect - all countries involved still have the right to appeal for their land back.

An excellent lecture and discussion at http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/israelborders.php identifies how this is so. It also identifies how the US and Israel particularly are not likely to comply with any court attempting to hear such a case, unless it were brought before Supreme Courts in the US and in Israel.

Let's get to it, boys!

Can't we settle this in the UN? No. No will and no teeth.

Appeals to the International Criminal Court are useless. Apart from the fact that Israel (at the behest of the US) withdrew its signature from the treaty, it has a long history of refusing to abide by any ruling that it feels could disadvantage it economically, culturally or racially, not to mention militarily. Anyway, both sides have histories of racism, double-dealing and terrorism in their pasts. It would be a fruitless exercise.

Far better for them to eventually go through a South African-style Truth & Reconciliation Commission when it's settled.

So what will bring the pressure to bear upon the USA and Israel to settle this thing?

Michael Neumann at York U had an excellent article a few months back that I thought should have received much more play than it did. Nobody I sent it to (including my one Zionist acquaintance) could poke a hole in it. See it at http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann11182005.html

Essentially, he points out that Israel has no strategic value to the US, and all it does is piss off Big Oil. It does not help the US control the flow of oil, and it raises the global price for oil, which pisses much of the world off. Neumann points out that leftists in the US particularly are responsible for perpetuating the myth that Israel helps ensure a stable supply of oil to the US, and so deserve the opprobrium the Reburplicans are heaping on them.

However, Neumann is hopeful someone will figure it out one day. Mearsheimer and Walt have given everybody the context. The emperor now has no clothes. The only need is for one child.....

In time of war the President/Commander-in-Chief is actually the Dictator of Amerika. e.g Lincoln, Wilson and Roosevelt. Make no mistake, these various escalations around the middle east will encourage George W to run for a third term.

Here is an interesting article for the neocons who insist on equating criticism of Zionism with anti-semitism;
http://stangoff.com/?p=328

Hey, but why are we talking about Israel as if in fact it only refers to that stamp-sized spot on the map there in the middle of enemy country? When we know, that according to the best conspiratorist authorities, the State of Israel is only a symbolic entity, and the real allies the US aims to please is the World-wide Jewish set, who have its tentacles into illuminati, if in fact it isn't the illuminaty - ask Texe Marrs and chohorts, who have the Rotschilds and the Rockefellers and such folks listed as owning half the world if not more, and pulling all kinds of strings behind all kinds of scenes. It is said the US owes these people billions of money and must live in their pockets and do what they say.
I feel sorry for the poor idealists in Israel, who jumped on the bandwagon and thought that one can go home again. They are taking the brunt for being symbolic and paying for it very dearly, and their lives and problems are as real as yours and mine, but they are only, according to the sources, the tip of a very big iceberg.
Don't get me wrong. I am not voicing any 'Jews are evil conspirators', as is always being immediately suspected of anyone who points out that Jewish people own anything other than a tricycle. Other people own things, but we're not discussing them here.
Would it not possible explain, together with the military industrial complex, who want wars for profit going on somehere 'not here' all the time, would that not explain why the US sinks so much into this enterprise?

New Leger poll shows most Canadians who have an opinion disagree with Harper's position on the crisis in Lebanon, and believe the gov't evacuation efforts have been too slow.
I predict even more Canadians will come out against Harper as the facts become clearer.
http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/news/shownews.jsp?content=n072091A

Leger asked respondents whether they "strongly agreed, somewhat agreed, somewhat disagreed or strongly disagreed with Harper's support of Israel's armed intervention in Lebanon?"

Forty-eight per cent of respondents disagreed, 30 per cent of them strongly.

Thirty-five per cent of Canadians polled agreed with Harper, 15 per cent strongly, while 17 per cent did not know or refused to answer.

Again, Quebec residents who took part in the poll were most critical. Sixty-seven per cent said they disagreed with Harper's position.

Quebec is home to the largest number of the 250,000 Lebanese-Canadians in Canada.
...Forty-two per cent of respondents in a new poll believed the federal government did not move quickly enough to evacuate Canadians from war-torn Lebanon.

Another 36 per cent in the Leger Marketing survey said the response was adequate, while the remainder said they didn't know or refused to answer….

Dissatisfaction was highest in Quebec, where 62 per cent found the government actions inadequate.

I like Rick Salutin's take in the Globe today (Sorry I have no link. It's likely subscriber-only. I found this excerpt at Norman Spector's site):

"It is obscene for our government to expend effort rescuing Canadians from a war zone while refusing to call for a ceasefire and working to achieve it. The same conditions threaten Lebanese civilians as menace ours. They are as human and as innocent as our own citizens, and we owe them a moral duty. If evacuation is urgently needed, then so is a ceasefire….

What matters now in the Mideast is not who is right, or why they feel right. What matters is who has the might to impose their notion of right. The bloody individual carnage inflicted by Israel's foes has never been commensurate with the vast damage inflicted by Israel on Palestinian and Lebanese society over generations. Spiderman may think that with great power goes great responsibility. But it is hard to imagine anyone who, like Israel, feels deeply menaced and morally justified, not using the power they have. In that case, great responsibility falls on those who endow them with that power, particularly the U.S. It is criminal to create a huge imbalance of power in a fragile situation. It is criminally negligent to then stand back and refuse to seriously try to moderate its use. But that is where I began."
[I]

Stan:

"It’s really disappointing to read the blinkered, one-sided opinions presented by some posters here. How can Israel reach any sort of peace agreement with neighbors that refuse to acknowledge Israel’s existence? Why is it “illegal” for Israel to retaliate when rockets are fired at them or suicide bombers kill Israelis? What gives you the right to determine what an ”appropriate response” is when you are not the one under attack? You are incredibly naive, stupid people for thinking that Islamo-fascists are interested in your pursuit social justice."

Do you think that this opens the door for any state to then strike preemptively at any Nation which may have terrorists within them?"

Or then be done with it and slay all of Israel's enemies!

Of course it is not easy to strike a peace agreement that hopefully settles the situation. I abhor the violence on all sides, and not all Israelis support their government's actions and the ensuing violence.

It would seem that this morning's Province editorial backs up Harper's Israeli endorsement.

The response from Israel was swift and devastating -- and perhaps not the response Nasrallah expected.

For a week now, Israel has launched air raids on the major cities of Lebanon.

These have not been raids of random destruction. They have targeted Hezbollah operations. And because Hezbollah chooses to shield itself in populated civilian areas, innocents have died.

Israel's critics cite the civilian death toll as justification for anti-Semitic rants and words like "atrocity." But if we are going to condemn civilian deaths, let's consider the following:

March 14, 2004 -- Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide-bombing at Ashdod Port in Israel.

Aug. 31, 2004 -- Sixteen people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide-bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba buses.

Oct. 7, 2004 -- A total of 32 people were killed in terror bombings at two Sinai holiday resorts frequented by Israelis. Among the dead were 12 Israelis; over 120 were wounded.

Nov. 1, 2004 -- Three people were killed and over 30 wounded in a suicide bombing at the Carmel Market in central Tel Aviv.

Feb. 25, 2005 -- Five people were killed and 50 wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the Stage club in Tel Aviv.

July 12, 2005 -- Five people were killed and around 90 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself outside Hasharon Mall in Netanya.

Oct. 26, 2005 -- Six people were killed and 55 wounded, six seriously, in a suicide bombing at the Hadera open-air market.

Dec. 5, 2005 -- Five people were killed and more than 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Sharon shopping mall in Netanya.

March 30, 2006 -- Four people were killed when a suicide-bomber disguised as an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva student detonated an explosive in a private vehicle near the entrance to Kedumim.

April 17, 2006 -- Eleven people were killed and more than 60 wounded in a suicide bombing during the Passover holiday in Tel Aviv.

In the last six years, in suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, 7,520 Israelis have been injured and 1,133 killed.

Now that's an atrocity.

Let's see - what we're saying here is -

It was OK to bomb the hell out of civilians because Hezbollah fighters were among them.

An eye for an eye is an accepted and civilized way to handle disputes.

In keeping with Zalm's comment above, we all know that the Israelis have always acted in good faith in border disputes and have gone out of their way in negotiations with their Arab neighbours. Hence the suicide bombings within Israel were entirely without provocation.

That is just too much double standard, Freebear.

It is hard to envisage someone taking the elaborate precautions for a suicide bombing under immdiate provocation. it would seem to me, there is a good deal of cold delibration and forks in the road, where one could take a different path. If these bombings are justified, then so is Israeli retaliations.

We keep discussing what came first, the egg or the chicken. It is interesting to see a few posts back, that Herzl proposed buying the land from the owners at 'exorbitant prices'. Can we then assume, that the original Zionists obtained the land by legal means, rather than armed conquest? If so, it would seem that at least some of the right-of-return advocates want to eat their cake and have it too.

Maybe we cannot do much about the situation in the Middle East, other than talk. We can try to see to it, that the same kind of situation does not happen here. Are we not in the process of seeing our resources, including land, sold at 'exorbitant prices'. Yet, I worked for someone years ago, who decried the surfeit of 'turbanheads' around the place where he used to have a farm. I asked why he no longer had the farm, and he said he sold it to a developer, who subsequently effected a subdivision. How shortsighted are we? Are we, in our haste to see 'development' of everything we can lay hands on, rasing the possiblity of our children or grandchildre becoming 'Palestinians', just like we have done with the original owners of this country?

Dorothy reposted from yesterday for you, better wake up and smell the coffee.

Hannibal says,

Quote:
Quebecers tend to be more pro-Palestinian than English Canadians. That the Canadian family killed in Lebanon was from Montreal, and that most of the stranded Canadians there are from Quebec, can only add to that sentiment.

Very interesting observation, is it possible that this is the driving force behind for Quebec to separate from Canada, creating a new Arab , Muslim state on our east coast, hum interesting.

Dorothy:

I am confused why you directed your response at me? I was quoting Stan and then added soome general comments.

Please clarify.

stan,

Your view is that Israel should keep attacking its neighbours until they agree to recognize its existence and then you tie yourself in childish little knots when someone points out that that strategy is doomed to fail.

Well too bad stan, that's life. Israel is in a bad spot that they brought on themselves. They used terrorism and outside pressure to create their state in the midst of people who didn't want them there. They've engaged in and won war after war and as their territory expanded and as they built their nuclear option they've become ever more aggressive and the price of their friendship has continued to rise. Now, as you say yourself, the price of security from Israel is for the Arab nations to sign treaties from a position of weakness that recognizes Israel as the supreme power of the middle east. (No other country will be allowed nukes, Israel will destroy the program if Jordan for example were to build them)

You of course see nothing wrong with this. Creating a state that its neighbours didn't want to exist required a strong hand at the wheel. It worked for Otto von Bismarck and you think it'll work just as well for Israel. (By the way, Bismarck was a historical figure pre-1939 so I realize you've never heard of him)

Germany was a growing power whose birth rate was high. Israel can't make the same claim. Like Israel Germany won war after war on every single front. It was the pre-eminent power and forced its neighbours to sign treaties recognizing the new German Empire and the annexation of countries like Bavaria that it had conquered.

Germany's neighbours however simply bided their time and waited for the right moment and when it came in 1914 they mobilized. Israel will face the same situation one day. They don't have the population to drive the Arabs out of the Middle East.

So whether you like it or not Israel will have to use its temporary position of superiority to make real peace with its neighbours. They can't rely on US-backed dictators staying friendly forever against the wishes of their growing populations. Israel only has to lose a war once.

If and when the day comes that the Arabs on the street don't cheer suicide bombers then peace will be acheived. Not from getting a dictator to sign a scrap of paper. Israel's fate is tied to the Palestinians. The worse it looks for them the chances of peace will be ever more remote.

Now please go back to your disjointed and directionless ranting.

On Tuesday CFAX Radio did an online poll that asked whether Canada's efforts to evacuate Canadians was sufficient. 90% thought it was.
Letter from The National Post today
regarding the UN Human Rights chief Loise Arbour
" So Ms. Arbour has suddenly decided that shelling innocent civilians is a war crime. Why is it that she and her predecessors never said one word about the decades of shelling by Hizbollah and the hundreds of suicide bombings by Palestinians that have been inflicted on civilians in Israel? Two generations of children have literally grown up in bomb shelters, but the United Nations never saw that as a crime.
She should be quiet. and let Israel do the job that the United Nations wouldn't. "
It's been too convenient to blame the Jews, rather than think through this. I find it amazing to see anti-semitism become fashionable in Europe. Where did we get so off track, and why have we been so uninformed by our media ? We can't negotiate with Hizbollah. They don't have a secretary of state or anything close. How do we deal with them ? Why don't they give back the soldiers they are holding hostage?
I hope Israel finishes the job and destroys both Hizbollah and Hamas. Israel should run the entire area. Let the desert bloom.

You know what - yo're right. I got goggle-eyed by these long columns and ascribed the wrong authorship! My apologies.

I believe it was Jack's who said this ironically about the suicide bombings being 'entirely unprovoked'. And I still think that's a double standard. Maybe I'll just go back to quotes and not be personal.

The Province's one-sided editorial is sadly predictable. It's a Canwest paper owned by the Asper family, and, as the Brain points out (Hi to you too Brain), the Aspers have a hawkish agenda with regard to Israel. Worse, they micromanage the reportage and editorial content of their (too) many papers, to reflect their own personal, I would even say racist, anti-Arab views.
It's frightening the amount of media control this pair of brothers has in Canada, especially in Vancouver, where
both city newspaper dailies, plus the National Post, are Asper owned and spun, plus Global TV stations, radio stations, many community papers... It is partly the government's fault for allowing this degree of media concentration.

The Province editorial's list of Israeli casualties leaves out a very pertinent point: the number of Arab casualties, tallied up over the decades FAR outweighs
a much smaller number of Israeli casualties. In the current crisis, the ratio is 10 to 1 against the Lebanese, that is 10 dead Lebanese for each Israeli death. This has been the story for decades. Israel's "the devil made us do it" defence does not absolve them of responsibility. As Lynn points out Canada's Justice Louise Arbour, an international law expert says: Israel's attacks on civilian
areas appears prosecutable as war crimes (and the same goes for Hezbollah's rockets targeting civilian areas).
The difference is the Israeli P.M. and his government is directly responsible for ordering attacks, whereas the Lebanese government did not order Hezbollah to attack Israel, and outside of the small number of Hezbollah gov't members, had no knowledge of Hezbollah's raid, and likely would not have supported it! Hezbollah does have a small presence in the Lebanese gov't because Lebanon is a democracy and Hezbollah won some seats.

The new Lebanese gov't is very fragile, and does not yet have the strength to simply crush Hezbollah in Lebanon. A domestic campaign to use force against Hezbollah (which holds some power, influence, and popularity) would likely
just revert the country to civil war.
It's a complex situation.

Israel has no right to destroy an entire country because of the existence of one unfriendly faction within it.

North Korea? I'm feeling more worried now that Israel is a rogue nuclear armed state with an attack dog mentality. Unlike in Iraq, Bush would definitely find WMDs in Israel, obtained illegitimately by Israel spying on its ally the US! If it was any other country, this would be grounds for a cooling of
relations, and sanctions against. Instead, the coddling continues, further inflaming Islamic countries against Israel and the West.

I guess my post was too much for most on this thread, who are still discussing the symptoms of the problem, and not the cause.

I understand - it's a tough one to face up to. But if we don't do it, we will inevitably face the end of everything, to the delight of the truly mentally ill.

gkam, religion is not going to go away. Calling for its end is tilting at windmills.

IAMC"

yu said: "It's been too convenient to blame the Jews, rather than think through this. I find it amazing to see anti-semitism become fashionable in Europe."

So if I disagree with you that makes me anti-IAMC?

I would say I am anti-religion, especially if it is argued, or presented, that one religion is better than another!

IAMC:
You cite a radio "poll" from Teusday, implying it actually has some relation to the opinions of Canadians on the evacuation efforts. (Does CFAX happen to be a Canwest station, by chance?)

Radio phone in polls are completely unscientific and unreliable. A scientific poll such as the one just out from Leger tells the tale: Most Canadians disagree with Harper's position on the current crisis and believe the evacuation effort has been too slow.

Evacuees now returning home are now talking to the media, and so far, their voiced dissatisfaction with Canada's disorganized evacuation efforts (compared to what other countries accomplished) is not flattering to Harper's gov't. The Cdn. embassies in Lebanon turned Canadians away from their doors, would not return calls, were completely unhelpful to desperate Canadians stuck there, as Harper apparently insisted on micro(mis)managing from Ottawa, not allowing embassy staff to do anything to help or even speak to people without Harper's pre-approval of every detail! That guy is a fanatical control freak to the point of incompetence to lead a country! The effort to get people safely away on ships was also reportedly a shambles. Other countries did better.As more and more information comes out, I predict even more Canadians will disapprove of Harper's position on this crisis. Next election, VOTE THIS INCOMPETENT ARROGANT P.M. OUT!

Gkam summerize the post that your referring to, then repost it, your observations in regards to religion are correct, once again religion has influenced its evil powers over people.

IAMC

Isreal should destroy Hamas and Hezbollah and then when the Palestinians have leadership that will negotiate in good faith about peace they should return land as they have done in The Sinai, Gaza and Lebanon.

Isreal's right to security does not include a right to gain land by conquest.

The current conflict isn't actually about religion - it only seems that way. It's politics and geopolitics.

Here is a re-post:
I haven't read all the posts, But nobody I read has gotten to the core problem: Religion.

Isn't it time we grew out of our need to feel special, to rely on the little lies we tell ourselves about death and eternity? What is this special need we have, this huge insecurity that we blindly accept old wive's tales, when all around us are the proof of a more rational existence?

If I go down the street in the US talking to Harry the Invisible Rabbit, people would think I was nuts, but talking to The Lord, another conveniently-invented character, makes me blessed.

All religions claim to have the Truth, although that truth has varied widely throughout history. How do we know our present idea of God is the right one? Maybe the next religion will be the really TRUE one, . . or maybe God is really Mithras, . . or Ra, or one of the horrible Mayan Gods of the past, and we're all doing foolish things making sounds and gestures, and solemn thoughts for nothing?

Doesn't sound like something to kill for, does it?

Let's be honest: The religious are mentally ill. Sorry, but the belief in secret pals, invisible companions, and magical personages contradicted by science is not the description of a rational mind.

It's the symptom of someone believing what they want - what is convenient, what is comfortable.

We have to stop killing for mental illness.

And, nightbloom, yes, it is about religion.

Frank is right - we will not get rid of religion. It's hard-wired into us as some kind of insecurity. We seem to need the comfort of believing what makes us feel good.

We are all spiritual to one degree or another. It is organized religion that is the problem, when some know-it-alls insist that others buy into their version of what they can't prove.

It is an insecurity we can't mention. I have written many letters to newspapers that regularly print my notes, but none will touch my letters on religion, nor the one questioning whether it is a good idea to glorify our servicemen for being willing to kill on command.

We are all open to discussion, . . as long as it doesn't threaten our own emotional or economic security, I guess.

"These have not been raids of random destruction. They have targeted Hezbollah operations. And because Hezbollah chooses to shield itself in populated civilian areas, innocents have died." From the provice editorial. What a load of crap.

Last time I looked, the international airport at Beruit was hardly a Hesbollah operation. Wonder how many of those briges and highways were just full of those Hesbollah terrorists? So where else are they hiding? Maybe the first baot got stopped a couple of times so the Israeli navy could look under the chairs and tables for "Terrorists" .

Safest way is to simply do what the Isreali airforce is doing right now. Bomb them all to death and ruin the infrastructure.

The article started off wondering if Harper and his side kick Peter Mckay were doing the right thing by supporting Isreal no matter what. So a few Canadains get killed. Hey they shouldn't have been on the same street as some, maybe terrorist. The saddest thing was watching our beloved PM standing in the doorway of our aircraft trying to make nice to some voters. Even had his other half there looking interested.
Mind you a number of folks don't consider them "real Canadians" as they have dual citizenship. which of course has nothing to do with the issue. They are Canadians, they arn't part of the plan to bomb anyone.

Get them out of the areas being bombed and let the BS start after not during.

re: religion

to expand gkam, religion is used as an easy (perhaps the easiest) explanation of the world and our place in it. However, it falls incredibly short because it religion explains only the "self" and not the "other". One thing that most religions have in common is the notion of salvation. It is this idea that we're doomed on this earth and only through a selfish religion can on be redeamed in death. I've always been bothered by the notion of salvation. Perhaps is we lived for our short time alive that we'd foster a deeper understanding of the other.

Bobb999 wrote..

Good post above. Very true indeed.

Approximately 50 years ago the Shah of Iran was America's close friend in the middle east. Regardless of all the financial and military help from the U.S., he was overthrown. It was during those days, Israel, through its American spy network, obtained a nuclear weapon. This espionage against the U.S. was covered very briefly in American media even though there was no mistaking about catagorizing it as espionage.
At the time, I concluded that the U.S. in fact wanted Israel to have Nukes and the espionage idea was a cover just to lessen middle east and communist reaction. I don't think it fooled the Russians because their expertise in espionage was unsurpassed.
In fact, since the beginning of the State of Israel, America has been its biggest foreign aid contributor - and, as far as I know, its only one.
With this in mind, one would think the U.S. could dictate Israeli policy.
But mainly because of AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee), just the opposite is true. AIPAC has America's (and Canada's) politicians by the throat.
The Arabs know this, as well as the Russians, and every other country in the world..... and hence the real resentment.

On the religion issue....

If the U.S./Canada/Britain were to go to war against Israel - what side would the Jewish community be on?

I'm just asking....

And it's crazy, ubiquitous. A perfect being without human faults would not need to be worshipped. And the idea that an unlimited Universe would be created just for us to occupy one little speck of it is astonishing in its self-centeredness.

But entire continents are preoccupied with this selfish nonsense, each group insisting that the others are dead wrong (and willing to make them that way).

We will never ascend or evolve until we can deal with this deep-seated insecurity, and refuse to give in to the call of irrationality for the sake of emotion.

Hey, Jack's!

You are absolutely right.

It seems, though there have been many good comments above since I was last here, some especially interesting ones from Frank, that "just about" everything has been said on the subject, especially the neoconazis, and they have emerged devoid of real analyses and ideas, and can but now regurgitate and insist upon only pro-US Empire and pro-Zionist Fascist shiboleths that have as their New Auschwitz target, the Arabs/Palestinians. It is indeed one of the great ironic twists of history, as Lynn has said, in the case of both the US Empire and the Zionist Occupiers, that their earlier histories as the oppressed has come full circle and moulded them into the new extremist oppressors of this time.

This is an extremely difficult time for some folks I know, to get their heads around, who still see the Jews and the Amerikans as they were, and for that, are having difficulty seeing what they have actually become in our time. It is becoming clearer and clearer however, all the new linkages and disconnects. With each new brutality and militarist/fascist arrogance, in Occupied Palestine, in Iraq, and in Afhghanistan, the cobwebs are falling away, even from popular western opinion, and these two entities are becoming more seen for what they have actually become, and the danger they pose to the entire world.

And with that process of course, there is evident even here, the glimmer of a new understanding about what the Arab peoples, however muddily it sometimes seems to present itself, are up against, and why their resistance has and is taking its current forms.

Going forward, this process is destined, in my view, to be another one of those elements destined to turn the current tide running for, against the Neoconazis, their beloved, even over their own nation, US Empire, and the Zionists with whom they are allied in oppressing the peoples of the Middle East. They are a problem for them and for us, in this country, and a part of this parallel dimensional process.

Has anyone in this thread read any books by Victor Ostrovsky?

He was an agent of the Mossad, Israel's spy agency, and his writings are both fascinating and chilling.

By Way of Deception is a good place to start.

Bobb999

This is an exceptional post. I sincerely wish you would send this to the Province editor in response to his editorial.

Stan, ohhh...I would think there is definitely violence on both sides, as do many here. Just don't moralize away US-backed terrorism on the part of Israel because it suits you to not face it.

Just have the human decency to face the fact that there is another side to this issue:

"A new study reveals that Associated Press Newswire coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict significantly distorts reality, essentially over-reporting the number of Israelis killed in the conflict and underreporting the number of Palestinians killed.

Significant findings of the one-year statistical study include:

AP reported many Israeli deaths in multiple articles, but failed to cover a third of Palestinian deaths
AP reported on Israeli children’s deaths more often than the deaths occurred, but omitted any coverage at all of 85 percent of Palestinian children killed."

gkam, frank - Interesting line of discussion. I accept that you might be right, and that the world sketched vaguely in Lennon's "Imagine" ("no heaven, only sky..." etc.) might be a more peaceable place.

But why not ban politics itself? Politics can just as easily be advanced as the principal cause of conflict (I argued above the religious excesses usually occur when the religious sphere is co-opted by political forces).

Or why not banish ideology, which shares much of the patina of religion, including a foundational Salvation Narrative (and Left ideology shares a particular isomorphic congruence with Christianity and Judaism through its ingenious - if disingenuous - use of Oppression Narratives).

So why banish just religion - why not politics and ideology? And aren't you really talking about enforcing a kind of authoritarian comformism, after all?

Jack's:
Perhaps you're right that the US secretly wanted Israel to have nuclear weapons, and "allowed" Israel's spying.

The US did take a hard line judicially on the actual spies caught. Israel continues to lobby (unsuccessfully)for leniency for its spies convicted and sentenced to life or very long sentences. Perhaps this suggests US hypocricy, and how expendable individuals are treated as, in maintaining "appearances".

I take your last question to be saying: How do you expect Iraqi and other middle eastern descended Muslim Americans/Britains/Canadians to react when they see the chaos, deaths and destabilization the US led war in Iraq has resulted in (or the Israeli attack on Lebanon, apparently supported by our own poor-excuse-for-a-P.M., has resulted in)? If Israel was so attacked, Western ensconced Jews would be outraged just the way Muslims are now. Good point.

nightbloom,

Are you sure you meant to direct that post to me? I might be an atheist but I don't see any reason to ban religion. The word "ban" makes me uncomfortable by the way. Sounds too jack-bootish.

Banning ideology, religion and politics is like banning human nature and curiousity.

I think its fairer to say Mohammed and Jesus are dead and what they had to say 1300 and 2000 years ago is all very well but can we respect them while still moving on and forging our own path in the here and now.

Oops - I meant ubiquitous, not Frank...

I never said religion should be banished nightbloom. I was posting one of the issues that I have with religion in general and in its current context, and why I reject religion. I will post more later but I have a meeting to run off to - my new religion ;)

I didn't say we should ban religion. Do authoritarians usually assume the most draconian interpretation of statements, . . looks like it.

My point was that we each have to realize our susceptibilities for emotion overcoming rationality. Emotions were helpful to us - they are the mechanism for instinct, the way for us to know what is good behavior for survival- but what was good for evolving species is not necessarily appropriate for those living in a world more of their own making, such as rational man.

If we do not overcome these needs, they will lead to our extinction, . . if the conservatives haven't beat them to it.

No one here has once suggested, to my knowledge, that religion be "banned". You keep wanting to put words into our mouths which have otherwise never come even near them.

To critique religion is as legitimate an intellectual enterprise as to do so of any other ideology, social formation or ideas construct. And yes, religion is an ideological construct,

But to proceed from one so much as daring to deny or question the underlying premises or manifestations of religious thought as being directly equatable with "banning" it, is not only ingenuous but outright deceitful. You folks have to take your licks the same as any of us must be prepared to do.

I, an atheist, certainly do NOT advocate banning religion, for example. What I do advocate is that folks simply walk away from it, abandon it as "unreal", and serving no good purpose. On the other hand, because of the intellectual/emotional frailty of some individuals, and because there MAY be some degree of hardwiring predisposition to "deity worship" in SOME individuals, I actually expect it is going to be with us for some considerable while yet-, at least until an extended process of scientific development and education, and natural selection maybe takes care of it eventually for us.

Short of that, I see no good practical or ethical purpose to be served by outlawing religion. Inded, it would but serve to martyr the ding-dongs. :-) And in their perversity, they like that. My view.

We will just have to put up with the bothersome twits, from their pulpits, ivory towers, and with their tracts and briefcases in hand at the door, insulting them away as need be. (Which buys them "persecution for one's faith" points in heaven, so is actually a favour to them. :-)

I'm away, dahlings.

My baby turns 40 tomorrow, so I have a baron of beef for 35 folks to cook and slice, and a keg of beer to procure from the brewery.

My baby! 40!

The injustice of it all!

nightbloom, religion is abstract, politics is concrete, can it be said any more simple.

On Tuesday CFAX Radio did an online poll that asked whether Canada's efforts to evacuate Canadians was sufficient. 90% thought it was.

This is a joke, right IAMC? Do you have any idea how easy it is to manipulate one of these, never mind how narrow the sample is.

Here's the scientific poll that was mentioned above...

http://www.legermarketing.com/eng/

...but then again, I know how much stock you put into science.

Lynn:

Just have the human decency to face the fact that there is another side to this issue.

Yes, there are (at least) two side to this problem, but it's you and all the other Israel haters that refuse to see things from all sides.

How am I moralizing? By saying that Israel has the right to defend itself. And who are you to say what the appropriate response should be? You don't have to worry about rocket attacks or suicide bombers.

As I've said before: How can Israel negotiate a peace settlement with a foe which refuses to acknowledge the existence of the Israeli state? It can't, unless it disappears off of the map, like so many here wish it would.

Thanks for clarifying this Clueless Neoconazi's misleading post on this Verso. He just never gets it right-, or the corporatist media he relies upon so much, as an article of pathetic faith.

I believe the penalty for espionage in the U.S. at that time was the death penalty.

I certainly agree with Lynn's point that
those of us critical of Israel's actions are NOT ignoring Arab violence against Israeli civilians (I'm sure we all find suicide bombings of civilian targets appalling). But the bare statistics point to Israel, on balance, being the greater villain.

-(Despite possible skewing of #s by AP and others), every figure I've ever seen which attempts to accurately tally deaths on each side over the decades, shows Israel to be by far the worst murderer of civilians in terms of sheer numbers of innocents killed. Israel tries to downplay Arab casualties,but I've never seen Israel attempt to claim that more Arabs have not died at Israeli hands than vice versa.

-It's Israel that forcibly banished Palestinian farmers and other inhabitants
from land they and their forefathers had
dwelt on continually for possibly close to 2000 years. Israel's argument often is they have a God given right to the same land because they have an ancient book that says so, and because once upon a time, 2,000 years ago their great, great, great, great, great, great (...etc.) grandparents apparently dwelt there.
So this is justification for the forced removal of all those Arab people who'd lived there for the past 2,000 years?
Again, as far as forcing people out of their homes and off their land, Israel is by far the greater villain.

- On standard of living: A new report has come out showing Israeli per capita GDP is one of the highest in the world, while
Palestinian Arabs suffer severe unemployment, comparative poverty, and lack of infrastructure.
Jewish settlements are guaranteed piped water and uninterrupted electricity, while Palestinians are often denied water (they are often forced to buy bottled water), and reliable electricity. Meanwhile,Israeli's are living high off the hog. So who's oppressing who? Again, the evidence points to Israel being the worst oppressors of others, while they live comfortable and affluent lives.

-Who has by far the greatest military might in the middle east? Israel, thanks to US coddling. Who has illegitimately obtained nuclear weapons there? Only Israel. Israel's been granted the might to bully others in the region, and they are not reticent about doing so, as we can see in Lebanon today, as Israel destroys the country's infrastructure on the pretext that one particularly unfriendly faction (Hezbollah) happens to exist there as a minority power and influence.Again, Israeli bombs, missiles, attack helicopters, and army troops have killed far more Arab civilians over decades than any Arab suicide bombers or fighters have ever done to Israelis. So who has been, and continues to be the greatest destructive force to human life, even threatening Arabs with nuclear attack? Statistically, Israel.

It's not the Israel critics who are ignoring one side of the violence (I don't think anyone on this board approves of suicide bombings or Arab/Islamic extremism). I'd argue it's some of the Israel apologists here who are the ones ignoring one side of the violence,
(statistically the worst side).
Israel has been and continues to be the worst villain, and greatest threat to human life in the region. They are more victimizers now than they are victims.

I have conclude the hawkish Israel apolgists have, for reasons known only to themselves, decided to side
with a predominant victimizer against Arab victims.
Such a stance I find hard to fathom.

Jack's: Thanks for your letters to the editor suggestion, but I'm convinced Canwest's agenda extends even as far as
rejecting letters that are critical of its position on its "A-list" issues, Israel topping the list.I understand Canwest's papers continue to lose money.
I only hope Canwest continues to bleed itself into bankruptcy!

Stan,

I have an old set of documents my family has been carrying around for generations that says I own your land. If I come over and throw you out, do I have a right to exist on your land?

verso problem is, of the Quebec poll which was 65% against Harper which in its self is not surprising, as most of the displaced Lebanese Canadians are from Quebec, the poll therefore is skewed.

gkam:

“All religions claim to have the Truth”

You are wrong there!

Not all religions claim to have the Truth. Only the Middle East monotheistic religions do. Many indigenous religions around the world have it built into them to constantly ‘seek greater wisdom’, clearly recognizing we are on a learning curve. Also, being mostly polytheistic, they have no judgments on other people’s Gods, since it is not part of their own religion, that there can be only one. Consequently, such indigenous religions, philosophies, or what you will, have never been employed as justifications for torturing or slaughtering other people. On the contrary, most of them clearly perceives the interconnectedness of everything and everyone as well as the cyclical nature of life – what goes around comes around.
Do not lump ‘religious people’ into one big heap, for then you are no better than those who count everybody not sharing their beliefs as ‘infidels’, ‘Heathen’, etc. Name-throwing of this kind accomplishes nothing. Judge a man on his merits, not his beliefs. If it works, don’t knock it. Being pragmatic is one step further than merely being ‘rational’. Of course, that robs us of easy categorizations, but so be it. Nothing worth having or being comes easy.

Dorothy,

You are correct. I was referring to Islam, Christianity, Judaism; the monotheistic, masculine, religions.

Not able to coexist, since that implies that others may have truths, too, they constantly seek to spread, like a societal malignancy.

Because they possess Absolute Truth, and are working for the Ultimate Good, anything they do is for the better.

Who the hell needs CanWest, now that we've got these excellent online newsmagazines? I say boycott it and maybe it'll go away.

Only one religion on the planet has never had a war fought in its name - Budhism .

Well, most of the good writers with good ideas on this blog never write to newspapers. Maybe that's what wrong with our society.

gkam:

You are oversimplifying. Perhaps you need to some research on how the creation of Israel came about.

In any case, the Palestinians had the opportunity to have their own nation in 1948, yet they and their Arab allies chose to go to war against Israel. They lost. Unfortunately, they still insist on this "all or nothing" approach to statehood by denying the right of existence for Israel. Until they change this approach, they will continue to have nothing.

Truman: Right! I boycott any and all Canwest products (at least as far as paying, and mostly even reading free online or watching), and will 2nd your motion to suggest others do likewise!

Jack's: You're right about the death penalty for espionage (as max. penalty). The Rosenbergs were executed, but then they were spying for the Soviets who were viewed as a serious military threat, while Israel wasn't about to use any stolen nuke know-how in order to attack its ally the US.
In theory, George Bush could pardon Israeli spies, as Israel would like, but it doesn't seem likely he ever will...it wouldn't "look right"!

Re:Israel nuclear program.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

"verso problem is, of the Quebec poll which was 65% against Harper which in its self is not surprising, as most of the displaced Lebanese Canadians are from Quebec, the poll therefore is skewed."

Woody, I'm not sure why this means the poll is skewed. The poll wasn't limited to Quebec or Lebanese-Canadians but, in all likelihood, random citizens.

Support for Harper was higher in Alberta, hardly surprising is it? Would you claim that the poll is skewed for that reason? The poll seems to reflect the differences in the political landscape... what more would you ask of it?

And anyhow:
"48% of Canadians disapprove of Stephen Harper's position to support Israel's armed intervention in Lebanon, whereas 35% approve."

My point was IAMC's poll is complete garbage, online polls are easily and often manipulated. Scientific polls aren't bullet proof, but I'd put more stock in this one than IMAC's.

I can't speak to Leger's methodology, nor will I claim to be an expert in the area... perhaps someone else could comment?

Here is the methodology, perhaps someone else could weigh in on it:

Methodology
This study was conducted by Leger Marketing among 3,040 Canadian adults on July 19 and July 20, 2006. The maximum margin of error for a sample of this size is ± 1.8%, 19 times out of 20. Using data from Statistics Canada, the results were weighted according to age, gender, region and mother tongue.

Stan,

Answer the question, please, instead of trying to dodge it.

If I take over your land, do I have the right to exist on it? That is the fundamental issue. We can talk about whether Menachem Begin and his murdrous gang were worse than the Palestinians from whom he was taking land, but that's not the point.

European and Asian Jews moved into Palestine and took it over, claiming to be a new nation. Those who were living there opposed them. Killing ensued.

The creation of Isreal was a mistake that even dwarfs WWII, for it could be the undoing of all of us in a war of religious zealots, killing for peace and goodness.

Would I have the right to exist on land that used to be yours?

Re. recognizing Israel's right to exist.

If Israel might start showing some respect to Palestinians, Lebanese and others of its neighbors ,then they would stand a better chance of being accepted. As it is, they continue to be the regional bully, making it harder, not easier, for its neighbors to accept, happily or otherwise,its presence.

Anyway, it's Israel who has been doing most of the ACTUAL on the ground DENYING of OTHERS' "right to exist". It's Israel who's done the most actual banishing of Palestinians off lands dwelt on for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been denied THEIR right to exist on those lands, and there is little chance Israel will ever allow them their "right of return" to their lands.

Again, I say the Israel apologists have it ass-backwards: It's Israel that's the greater oppressor, and victimizer, and denier of others' rights to exist, which naturally makes it very difficult for many Arabs to accept their oppressive presence. Personally, I believe it would be smarter for all Arab groups to
state that they will formally accept Israel's presence - if Israel can accomodate the legitimate rights of Palestinians, but I can understand why its hard for some to do this, especially when Israel has said a Palestinian "right of return" is a no-go. This Israeli position is tantamount to denying large numbers of Palestinians' their right to exist on their confiscated lands.

Israel is not the primary victim being denied its right to exist (it's existing pretty persistently as a militarily mighty, economically secure, affluent country). On the contrary, Israel is the primary denier of tens of thousands of Palestinians' right to exist as Palestinians on Palestinian land Israel forced them off of.

I can't help but find the hawkish Israel apologists' stance puzzling. They seem to identify with aggressive bullies...this appears slightly sociopathic to me.

Stan,

Read By Way of Deception. It's not either antisemitic nor anti-zionist. But it is an glimpse into the workings of Isreal, spawned by the horrors of the Holocaust, which has become not unlike the hardline, militaristic Nazis themselves.

Jack's

The US offered little support to the fledgling Israeli state. The Czechs, under Soviet direction, and French suppled the IDF with plenty of surplus and post-war weaponry. You will be stunned to discover that from 48 until the mid-60's France, not the US, was not the primary supporter of Israel. Under Eisenhower the US even suspended aid for a period of @ 3 years or so. US military support began in the early 60's when SAMs were sold under Kennedy, and an average of @ $15 million dollars per year had gone to Israel from US aid coffers from 1952 to 1967, but the aid was minor in comparison to French jets, tanks and other gear in the Israeli inventory. US aid for Israel went through the roof following the French decision to cut support for Israel and embargo IDF bound arms in the aftermath of the Six Day War. The US response was an aid package that increased to $76 million in 68 and $600 million in 71. US aid to Israel from 1948-1973 was just over $3 billion, with 2/3 of that coming after the 67 war.

Even if this is true simply acquiring a nuclear weapon accomplishes very little. Considering the size of the weapons around the period you specify it would be no small feat to steal a nuclear weapon. That, plus the fact I have found nothing remotely accusing Israel of this, even on lists accusing them of every evil under the sun, leads me to believe Israel did not "obtain a nuclear weapon" either at the time or in the manner you specify. When the French gave Israel a reactor with all the hardware and expertise necessary to build a bomb that is when Israel was truly on the road to Nuclear Power Land. The Israelis stole enriched uranium from a few sources, NUMEC being the US source, and combined this with all the French knowledge they had and foreign (mostly US) knowledge they had stolen to develop their own arsenal. The theft of uranium from NUMEC in 1965 makes a time line for Israeli nuclear capability in 1967 entirely plausible, and they certainly had nuclear weapons ready during the 73 war.

Sure was, but the US rarely executed cold war spies, except in the Rosenberg case. They were mid-level spies and that was more of a deterrent move than anything else, the US traded far more important spies back to the Soviets in some cases. The US also simply let some move abroad after harassing them: they had proof of espionage but couldn't reveal the source.

oops, that should be:

from 48 until the mid-60's France, not the US, was the primary supporter of Israel.

Gerhardius, It was not alleged that Israel stole a nuclear weapon. But thank you for elucidating how they stole the Uranium and secrets from the US to build their own, which they later tested in collusion with South Africa.

Well said, Bobb999 and gkam.

What is that old saying ?...about the ever-lurking danger of becoming the thing you fear the most.

Verso:
I once worked in the polling field,and from my recollections of national surveys, 3,000+ respondents is a solid, reliable sample size. Many national polls of various kinds use smaller samples (and are thus somewhat less reliable).

I believe Leger has a good rep. There's no reason to think their method of sampling to get a cross section of age groups, etc. is faulty.

I too would question Woody's assertion that the study was "skewed" by the Quebec results. Whaa? I'm not sure what he means exactly. Skewed how? As far as I know Quebec is still part of Canada, and a national poll would be skewed without Quebec!

The Quebec #s don't surprise. It's already known from previous polls that Quebeckers are the least hawkish on foreign policy of any province. For instance, they showed the least support for the Iraq war, and for Canada's military actions in Afghanistan. I don't see what's skewed.

Well, keep your eyes open for other polls coming out. I bet they'll confirm Leger. In fact I think the polling #s will go increasingly against Harper as more facts emerge.

Hannibal: Interesting link you posted on the history of Israel's nukes program. I didn't know France had been so involved. And that ambassador to Israel who saw his job as keeping the Pres. uninformed about
Israeli nukes. What an admission! I'm guessing the Pres. had ordered "don't tell me anything! I might have to act on it if you do!" So, it looks like the US tacitly accepted Israel's nukes program, yet is content to let the spies involved rot in jail!

Thanks for your input bobb999...

Does anyone find it interesting, or surprising that the Pope has not uttered a word (as far as the media I have seen/heard) on the violent situation in Lebanon and Israel?

How many more greetings at the airport will Peter McKay attend-all of them?

He looks like he is on the campaign trail, rather than offering a heartfelt welcome back to Canada!

They are on the campaign trail .

From Lynn:

... the abused becoming the abuser. Sad to contemplate, isn't it?

Forunately, the actions of the Israeli gov't don't reflect the wishes of all Israelis. There is an active peace movement in Israel, which includes some Rabbis, which believes in and persues respectful alliance/reconciliation with like minded Arabs - too bad such groups aren't more widely covered by the news media, because they may be the best hope for the region's future.

The apologists for current Israeli gov't actions might consider that not all Israelis support such hawkish policies. Some are actively working in the opposite direction, promoting non-violence on both sides.

Totally agree with your asessment bob999 .
That whole scenario reminds me of something out of Dr.Strangelove .
"No,I didn't hear it.It didn't happen."
"Please,never tell me anything ever again "
"I might have to do something you and I would both regret "
"Sssssh,quiet we might be being monitored by the CIA "

hannibal:
This stuff sure is fodder for black humour! And Strangelove was great.
Cheers, all.

Bobb999---verso----Of course its skewed the affected persons are mainly from Quebec, the poll results are from their friends , relatives and neighbors, in addition of this there probably a disproportionate number of Quebeckers that disprove of the Jewish state.
The poll disparity tells the tail Disagree Quebec 67% Disagree rest of Canada approx. 40%

Gee Woody, too bad Harper needs Quebec to win a majority. All the work they've been putting into Quebec dashed.

Hi Frank! Nice to see everyone here too.

Bobb999---verso---- one other tid bit I forgot to include with those poll results, a question put to a Quebecker in french can have a vast emphases on it, more so than a similar question in English , by the person conducting the poll particularly if they are themselves Quebeckers therefore have an influence on the out come of the poll, simply by the emphases they put on the question, any one who has had dealings with French Quebeckers will understand this.

redrivergirl you sweet THING you, ive missed you.

Cheers! Bob999 and everyone .

right on, hannibal..in that regard, Israel's ambassador to Canada is saying Louise Arbour, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, just "doesn't get it"... and dismissed her warning that war crimes charges may be warranted against Israel and Hezbollah if measures aren't taken to protect civilians.

He said she "fails to grasp the nature of the conflict."

Gerhardius

Nice reality based post. Too bad reality won't change too many minds here.

Bobb

Isreal is at peace with nations/organizations that offer them peace ie Egypt & Jordan. Hamas refuses to recognize Israel and sponsors violence against Isreal from territory that Hamas controls why wouldn't Isreal respond to that?

You noted how poor the standard of living is in territory controlled by Palestinians. Why not hold their leaders accountable for this?

Finally of course Isreal is the strongest regional military power. They have to be or they would have been destroyed.

Now there’s a stretch , we all know where to find Israel but where in hell would Louise find Hezbollah, I can visualize her now ,summons in hand, her hair all tangled and matted from crawling through the bushes, sweat beading down over her mascara, summons also torn from the brambles calling out in her french Canadian hackcent, Hisbula, Hisbula, where- r - u- I- hav a semens for u ,Hisbula, Hisbula, youwho, youwho.

Indeed. As time runs forward and the Arabs begin to finally zero in on how they can in the end defeat the Israelis, and time and demographics really is overwhelmingly on their side , these kind of folks, on both sides, are the best hope of a peaceful result which meets both community needs in the end.

That said, the Arabs really do have no choice but to fight on against the Zionist occupation, in my humble view, even if that element on both sides working towards a realizable and satisfactory final compromise are going to be encouraged into more numerous and vocal existance-, especially in Israel/Occupied Palestine. Majority opinion there really does seem to continue to be that they have the Arabs/Palestinians by the short and curlies. That mindset has to be changed on the "Israeli" side, and it is likely going to take serious bloodshed to do so. Too bad, but true. (Israel, and the West, need to, regrettably, be compelled to get over the notion that the Zionists, or the US Empire for that matter, have the right to steal anybody's land and call it their own. And doing so, they have no special "Right to exist". (It worked with North American aboriginals for special historical circumstantial reason, but will not with the Arabs/Palestinians.)

Peace.

This is a quick "sneak" in to see where the discussion is at and how much trouble the neoconazi bootlicks are being. They seem to have been overwhelmed though, and are backed off sucking their insecure thumbs.

gkam:

If I take over your land, do I have the right to exist on it?

That's a simplistic question. I would say "yes." I think that if you could prove it, then the courts would support you.

So? In any case, it doesn't matter what we think...Israel is going to do what it feels is necessary. No point discussing this anymore.

woody, Louise Arbour will probably find it just as difficult to issue that summons to Israel since Israel is soooo well-protected in high places as is all US-sanctioned terrorism...but at least she spoke up and did her job...and stood behind the principles of the Geneva Convention. And perhaps in the end world opinion will develop the same courage to stand firmly beside her.

What she did was a helluva lot more than most of the so-called leaders of the freeworld have done.

All quiet on the Western Front... as usual.

So? In any case, it doesn't matter what we think...Israel is going to do what it feels is necessary. No point discussing this anymore.

Never mind about the courts, . . what would YOU do?

And it does matter what we think. If we continue to not question aggression, we are all victims.

You miss the point: it's not a legal document, it's a religious document. My God gave your land to ME.

Do I have the right?

Alright, I think the neoconazis here have just about been routed, so can I tell you, on the sly, what the "self-interested" side of me really thinks? I mean, who the fuk am I, so what does it matter anyway, right?

I think it is necessary that the Arabs whup the ass of the US Empire and everyone allied with them, degrade them, humiliate them, humble them, and make them a less arrogant entity-, again. If that doesn't happen very soon, by fair means or foul, in my view of evolving events here, because this country, never mind Palestine, Lebanon or Iraq, is destined to very soon be absorbed, swallowed up by, reduced to a total non-entity by the forces of US Empire "free trade", "deep integration" or simple "imperialism", whatever the Hell you want to call it.

In my opinion, contrary to the neoconazis here, not a good thing.

I want this nation to survive, thrive, and secure its own self-sufficiency, place in the sun. That will not happen within the current dominant dynamic driving our relationship with the US Empire. It needs to be short circuited, and it thrown back to a simpler preoccupation with its own national survival.

I support the people of the Middle East, especially their resistance, whatever its manifestational form, first, because I am opposed to the imperialist drive of corporate capitalist imperialism as manifest in the alliance of the US Empire and Zionist Occupied Palestine, on principle, as not a good thing for them and all peoples. And I understand that imperialism and conquest is an ancient historical impulse within human societies at least from the time of slavery based Greece and Rome which, in my opinion, needs to be finally and completely overcome-, if we are finally going to have a "peace" that means anything other than a permanent state of war and conquest back and forth across further millenia between groups of the human family.

And the defeat of this tendency, currently manifest in the form of the US Empire, and its expansionist underpinning capitalism economic base and all allied with it, in my view, is ALSO a precondition for the continued existance of this country, upon which I place considerable sentimental and material value-, that it will finally be able to resist the forces of cannibalism which arise out of that economic and political base, which are fast already consuming this country.

So, as I see it, I have a stake in how this Middle East conflict currently raging, and likely destined to sweep across it, in the end resolves itself. If the US Empire and its Zionist ally comes out of it with even a victory that lasts another fifty years, as well it might, this country is burnt toast. It is history. The neoconazis will have won, at least to the absorption of this country, and for the rest of my life.

So I support the defeat of The Beast, by just about any means, as much for entirely selfish reasons as for morally purer notions.

There's a firestorm coming here. Don't be foolish. Don't, don't pick the wrong fuking side.

No, I think it's more complicated than that. They both form the basis of very different power structures which coexist in society, and which arrogate for themselves the authority to bestow legitimacy within their given spheres. Religion and spirituality overlap but they're not synonymous (the latter is abstract).

I've been tuning out Coyote's posts, but I just caught a line in which he refers to the defeat of "The Beast" - why does't he just come out and use the Islamofascist phrase "The Great Satan". Someone get that raving lunatic his meds.

It's predictable that Coyote would call for the defeat of the Western Empire, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. When I here complaints about the disparity between the standards of loving of Israel compared to her neighbors, I laugh, out loud. Blame the leaders, the useless, idiotic leaders these people have had. In fact compare the standard of living between the west and these despotic Muslim countries and it's obvious these people need a new course if they expect prosperity. A wealth transfer system as proposed by The Mangy Dog is not the answer. The money would be blown, and then what would we do. As a citizen of the American Empire, I say to you enemies, FU, we are going to win this struggle. Everyone knows that. But I guess some of you like to live in a fantasy world. One that won't even accept that CFAX ran an online poll that found 90% of respondents said that the evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon,was handled as well as can be expected. This, like Katrina, is not really a failure of the system. But let the spin begin.
I suppose we should have chartered all four of Harmony Airlines four Boeing's and flown everyone back first class , while enjoying Chef Rob Feenie's gourmet cuisine as they flew.
We should have ships all over the world, just in case some Canadians need help getting out of a disaster area.
Dream world lovers, here is your web site.

Two things keep floating around, which I think need to be clarified:

1) This is a religious war. Wrong. There never has been a religious war. Wars are always about turf, or lebensraum, as Hitler so eloquently put it. Religious zeal or any other ‘cause’ we put out is just an inconsequential label, which serves to somehow jutify us going for the jugular of our fellow man.

2) If the American/Israelis win, we will be overrun by the illuminati and our economy gobbled up, and our nationhood wiped out, while we somehow think we can handle the Arabs, should they become the victors. Wrong. They are likely all devils from our point of view, but the Amerelis are the devils we know. Have you any idea what zealous muslims would do with ‘us’. Can you even begin to imagine BC re-made by the Taliban set of values? Do you think the ‘moderates’ will have a voice in such a scenario? Look to Denmark and Sweden and Britain and find out how far they get there! Would you see our daughters gang-raped, because they didn’t swaddle up and hide themselves in sack-like floor-length dresses? This has happened in the Scandinavian countries. Wake up and find out, who you would be dealing with.

Then there is this strange postulate, that Buddhism is the only virtuous religion on Earth. Look up

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

and you will find a whole catalogue of religions, in which names wars have never been fought. Buddhism is among them, yes, but far from being the only one.

Now, this dipshit neoconazi lives in Victoria, B.C.. Read him very carefully. (Dorothyy is as well just about equally right fuking out of it, off over the deep edge.)

But I will say something for this seriously fuked in the head wingnut: He at least knows and acknowledges that he is a part of, resides in the belly of The Beast, US Empire. And this doofus is a Canadian, who consciously and willing sees his primary loyalty to this foreign empire.

He may be fuked in the head, but he is at least honest with us.

Too many of us are still hiding our heads in the sand about the state of our nation and where it is headed, let alone being prepared to actually do anything about it. He, at least, knows it and embraces the US Empire as his Lord and Master.

He does not equivocate. We know exactly where he stands and which side he is on.

Were the left, progressives and the forces for peace so clear and unequivocating. And in the conclusions they draw, about who their friends and allies are, and who are not.

Like I say, the Arabs are, in my view, right now at this particular moment in history, our friends, if we are Canadians who want and advocate for our nation against a foreign domination. The Zionist occupiers of Palestine are not. The former win, we win . They lose, we are all but lost ourselves.

As for the nightbloomer, he is nothing but a silly, incomprehensible twit, that neither side need be concerned with. I merely enjoy rattling his chain-, which ties him to the fantasmagorical and, at the same time, the entirely silly conventional. He is a source of constant amusement to me, especially when the neoconazis are running, or have become typically boring, and I'm feeling the need for entertainment-, to poke a stick in the Orangutan cage.

Cruel of me, I know. But the Great Satan makes me do it. :-)

Nighty-night, dahlings.

The thing is Dorothy, if the Taliban was running BC would we tell each other we want to elect a moderate leader to deal with them or would we want a firebrand? What would our reaction be if we were the victim of atrocities and told that if we would just elect leaders that were reasonable and accepted our new Taliban overlords all would be well? Would our moderate voices carry the day in case of such a scenario? Of course not.

The Arabs are on the losing end of one invasion after another and we expect them to act differently than we would in the same situation. Actually I think they're more peaceful than we would be if roles were reversed.

Informal Poll:

I would really like to know who approves of the actions of the Israeli government?
The actions of Hezbollah and Hamas are criminal, no doubt, but a 'show of hands' please , those who are for the actions of the Israeli government.

Of course the Arabs are our friends. And they are demonstrating it right now, by condemning the Hizbollah, and taking no active military part in this dispute. In fact I see The Arab League make no statements of condemnation to Israel , and a deathly silence generally. The Persians may be alone in this, which means that gutless Iran has been handed the ball. This is good for the West, as this country is far from a united, all on the same page country. They could be easily defeated, if that's what it comes to.
This war is over. Israel has been given the green light by the Saudi's, Americans, Canadians, British and almost all other sensible nations to get the job done, and destroy Hizbollah and Hamas.

At which time all the Palestinians will become content, docile even, and all will be well with the world. The Palestinians will simply accept their fate with a shrug of the shoulders.

Of course that's what will happen because Hezbollah and Hamas are not products of the Palestinian situation, they're the cause.

Damn sarcasm button got stuck..

To say that Israel upon destroying Hizbollah and Hamas, won't mean that hundreds of millions of people will not still hate the Jews is obviously stupid, and I am not saying that.
Hundreds of millions of people also hate us. Does that mean we or Israel shouldn't fight for our existence?
The Palestinians will never be happy, so what! We must be able to carry on with our lives.

in addition of this there probably a disproportionate number of Quebeckers that disprove of the Jewish state.

That's a matter of conjecture on your part, if not opinion. I can turn around and say Alberta's response to the questions are "disproportionate" (and yes I do realize the sample is smaller). Like I said, the poll reveals a diversity of opinion across the country.

Despite those two "disparities", the other provinces polled are close to evenly split. In fact, more provinces than not disagree with the question:

"Do you strongly agree, somewhat agree, somewhat disagree or strongly disagree with the decision of Prime Minister Stephen Harper to support Israel's armed intervention in Lebanon?"

Spin the poll anyway you want, it's still a more accurate reflection of what Canadians feel than the CFAX poll reveals... that being my original point.

Speak for yourself.

According to who? You? You decided that a government standing with less than 40% of Canada's support and falling, is a green light? What, your suddenly an ambassador and you know that the Saudi's and Brits and ALL OTHER SENSIBLE NATIONS have given the green light for Israel to bomb infrastructure and civilians? Sorry, man but your words resemble the ramblings of a nut who promotes violence.

Actually what it means is that you'll always have to. Never ending war.

no change here. same old lefty shite n'blather. same old blowhards babbling away about nothing. ho-hum.

We realize we're not up to the intellectual standards of the Elliot household where the only discussion above grunting is determining who controls the remote after dinner at McDonalds. I hope you at least thank your parents for paying afterwards.

Verso; the online poll I advanced was about the Canadian Govt. response to evacuating Canadian citizens from Lebanon.
It was not a poll that questioned Canadian support for Stephen Harper's endorsement for the actions by Israel to defend herself.
We have always been in an never ending war. No matter who we are.
Israel has already said that they are not into a long term occupation of Lebanon. They want to wipe out Hizbollah and turn the area over to the Lebanese Govt. or an international force.
The absence of a solid Islamic force like from Egypt or Saudi Arabia, is a sign that Hizbollha's actions are deplorable, and cannot be supported by Arabs.
Israel is only completing a UN mandate, that is because the UN can't do it.

That's not what their actions demonstrate. Their actions show they want to destroy the Lebanese economy and then leave without paying for the damage. I'm sure the smart people are lining up to buy up Lebanese vacation property or businesses right now. What is today's real estate value for a 2 bedroom bungalow in southern Lebanon? Probably less than a house in Weyburn.

Lebanon is not going to become a wealthy country capable of controlling its own territory if its economy has the spectre of an Israeli invasion hanging over it all the time. And unless it can that invasion's likelihood is all the greater.

I'm sure many Arabs do deplore the actions of Hezbollah, but generally its safe to say Israel is not looked upon as the victim here among most Arabs. And of course no country without nukes is going to challenge one that has them.

From the Ledger poll:

According to 42% of the entire Canadian population, efforts of the Canadian government to
repatriate Canadians staying in Lebanon are inadequate, whereas 36% think the opposite and
21% refuse to answer. 62% of Quebeckers find such efforts inadequate, while 52% of Albertans
think the opposite.

Here's the question as it was posed:

And you still ignore the fact that your poll is easy to manipulate. From the CFAX web poll:

How many times did you vote IAMC? I've now voted twice. Once from my home and once at a friend's.

I didn't vote. I only tuned into CFAX ( CHUM ) which is online. Say what you will, but acknowledge that most people polled by CFAX, were understanding of the impossible task Canada was into, and they supported the efforts. 90%

Interesting commentary on Hezbollah and the state of Lebanese sovereigny:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008681

...the 't' on this powerbook keeps sticking...I meant of course "sovereignty"...

IAMC all you'll get from me is that 90% of mouse clicks on CHUMS online poll were "understanding of..."

verso you better go find your back up buddy, I Bobb 999 times,as u pretty well lost this pissing match, as I watch the news(cbc)there are more and more people getting cheezed of with with all those whining and bitching,the vast majorty of the displaced people are greatful to be back and understanding of this vast under taking to get them back here safely.

An interesting quote from Ben Gurion, one of the terrorist founders of the so-called State of Israel, in the Letters To The Editor Section of yesterdays Globe and Mail.

I quote:

"If I were an Arab leader", Ben Gurion said, "I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural. We have taken their county..We come from Israel, but 2000 years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing. We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"

And they won't. That is the point. Like Frank says, the Jews make a peace with the Palestinians, including the right of Palestinian return to the homeland and properties, or they have to content themselves with a never ending war, of threat to us all-, until one day they are finally defeated.

The Arabs will only ever have to win once, and as the resistance of Hezbollah and Hamas is demonstrating, sooner or later they will learn how to do that.

I may be wrong, of course, but I don't think they are yet going to win this round. But guerrill's always have to be prepared to take higher casualty levels against a superior equipped invader enemy, whilst they wear them down and extract treasure and blood over an extended period of time. The secret for them is to endure, spread the instability, draw in the rest of the Arab world, but especially endure over the long haul.

And, of course, IAMClueless makes the classic neoconazi error of mistaking the puppet Arab state governments allied with the US for the Arab people. That will certainly get you a surprise discovery one day. :-)

Remember the Peacock Throne, IAMClueless. It was also allied with and endorsed US policy in the Middle East. Khomeni and the Iranian masses changed all that though, in a whirlwind moment, didn't they?

Surely you haven't forgotten already. :-) Quite a different Middle East dynamic as a consequence of that today, wouldn't you say?

"or they have to content themselves with a never ending war, of threat to us all-, until one day they are finally defeated."

And I say this ongoing soap opera, with all its posturing and mischief has become a culture in its own right, if not a cult. Other countries have experienced being diminished, justly or not, but they don't all react with frothing at the mouth and murder and burning nad blowing up. They get down to business and put a plow in the ground and feed their kids, instead of accepting handouts from people like the Saudis, who are simply exporting their own malcontents and paying the PLO and such entities for taking them off their hands.
What sticks out a mile is, that this ongoing war and holding on to an obsolete 'cause' is simply less onerous to these people than honest hard work and the daily grind, more glory and less gunk. Warlords and their followers are the worst escapists on Earth. Amen

Well Dorothy, at least you acknowledge the Jewish theft of Palestine. That's something. Not much, but something.

And many, like the Russians in WW2, England against the Nazis as well, China against Japan, Vietnam against the US, and many, many others do not. They hunker down and drive out the invaders who attemtp to steal their lands and drive them out. And they still manage to have and raise their kids, often in greater numbers, than say Amerika or Zionist Occupied Palestine does. (Interesting, eh?)

And what would you have advocated for had the Russians, during the time of the Cold War, actually invaded and occupied this country-, as was the claimed constant threat fed to us by the US?

You choose the course you would take darlin,. I know the course I would take, and it clearly ain't the one you advocate for here.

On the other hand, why don't the Zionists simply abandon their theft of the Palestinian homeland, and leave them in peace? Do you think they should do that?

Of course you don't. That is not what you are committed to.

You are guilty of what is known as hypocrisy, Dorothy, plain and simple. A double standard. Which will convince neither the Arabs or me.

This is a people thing Dorothy, not the male and female thing you would attempt to "culturally" reduce it to here. Remember Golda Meyer? And many women support both sides, and have been lowly soldiers and leaders in many conflicts across history and into modern times.

Your ladies are not quite so culturally "perfect" or different as we males as you attempt to toy with. And that is not to put women down, but in a more real context-, which I actually admire. You need a little reality brought into your perspective.

Dorothy, if people have a good economy and good prospects they can put history behind them, at least temporarily. That was the idea behind the Marshall Plan, nobody wanted a repeat of the in-fighting that swept over Germany and Russia in the aftermath of WW1.

But that isn't the case here. People need a future and the Palestinians don't have one. I've already said way up above, how desperate do you have to be to strap explosives to your back? How bleak does the future have to look for a kid who has worked hard in school and got good grades to decide it was all for nothing and to kill themselves by blowing up a restaurant?

And all the propaganda aside that's what it comes down to. The Palestinians have no future. No one is going to invest in a place where a gunship could destroy your business. Who would even invest in something as mundane as growing olives when Israel controls the transportation system and Palestinian business is, at best, not a priority and at worst prevented from being successful through constant checkpoints and intimidation?

If there was money to be made in Palestine private investors would flock to the place. They don't care what the gov't is, look at China. But they do require stability and the ability to sell to their markets and occupied Palestine provides neither of those.

Palestine will remain poor and a source of instability as long as Israel wants that to be the case.

All other religions are subsets of the 4,main religions .
It is correct that Buddhism has never had nor fought any wars anywhere on the planet .
Yes, there have been wrriors who were buddhist's Ashoka for one but he did not fight in the nam of Buddhism .

Well said, Frank. And it is the case. No where in human history has one country tried to build a wall around its neighbor for nothing other than a "permanent" occupation. And the thing is, on the concern of just "who" actually owns it (Israel certainly thinks God doesn't own it, thats for sure), Palestine is such a minority in terms of numbers and size when it comes to Israel, that Israel cannot be percieved, really, in any other way than what they are being percieved as now with their neighbors, particularly Palestine and Lebanon... oppressive and tyrannical, giving anyone who has watched Israels actions over the last 50 years, (never mind the last 50 days) as highly immoral and violent.

What I would like to see at this juncture is war criminal charges given immediately with those held responsible in both Israel and Lebanon, including ministers in the Israeli cabinet, if necessary.

Canada should immediately begin cease fire negotiations with Irael and use the threats of sanctions and other "measures" during diplomacy. Unfortunately, we have a rudderless government who is more interested in military defense kick backs from defense contractors, (usually done through directorships, although offshore banks can work as well, with Mulroney's airbus scandal as a good example of how one can steal with the sale of government intel and influence. note: Mulroney had 24 directorships at one point, a few being from defense with his own 91' military spending spree of 11.7 billion. David Emerson is the most active MP today in federal politics with 7 directorships, most of them coming to him while he was with Cambpell in BC selling BC Gas to Terasen, amoung other sales of the provinces resources) than they are in actually governing this country, especially on an international scene.

Getting a commission off of the sale of this country. Thats all this Harper government is interested in, and its high time people realized it by voting this bunch of rag tag theives out of office.

Hey! This is cool. Two things. Scroll down to Israel and Lebanon talking on the net article. There's hope.

Scroll down some more and read the 'right wing echo machines' response to the rescued Lebanese and we see where our nasty response is coming from. I was wondering what was happening to us after listening to some callers on a radio program and then read that which means most of the callers and some poll voters are just party operatives.

Finally, on the news last night one evacuee getting off our plane Harper used as a publicity stunt was outraged that Harper and his group told them that the reason for the screw-up was the ambassador was a Liberal appointee! How wasn't this a publicity stunt? They are just so ridiculous.

It would help if I posted the link,hmm?

http://thinkprogress.org/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22military.html?hp&ex=1153540800&en=3f2d5ce210ea0b64&ei=5094&partner=homepage

By DAVID S. CLOUD and HELENE COOPER
Published: July 22, 2006

WASHINGTON, July 21 — The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.

The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said. But Israel’s request for expedited delivery of the satellite and laser-guided bombs was described as unusual by some military officers, and as an indication that Israel still had a long list of targets in Lebanon to strike... SNIP!

Interesting link, redrivergirl. Good to read you again. :-)

Thank you, Brain. Nice to read you all too!

I tried the link and I'm having difficulty reading the added link to the JPost which is the full text to the internet communication. Perhaps it's too busy to get on.

Woody is still hammering away about his beloved CFAX pseudo-poll?? I say "pseudo poll" as a "measured response" to it, as no statistician (statistics, of course, forms the scientific basis of opinion polling) would recognize such a polling method as being even remotely valid, statistically.

Vancouver's CKNW has phone in polls, but at least they are honest enough to often point out "we should remind you this is NOT a scientific poll!" CFAX would do well to be honest enough to run such a disclaimer on their online polls page, and they might add: "for entertainment purposes only".

Assuming for a moment that the ONLY incident of "cheating" such as multiple voting was by Verso (good demo there by you Verso of how easy it is to bastardize such a poll!), the CFAX poll is a sample of CFAX listeners only (hardly representative of the entire country!) and specifically those listeners interested enough in the issue (or interested in attempting to boost Harper) to vote. We have no way of knowing if the sample contained more men than women (it probably did. I believe the demographic for current issues talk radio is mostly male); or if a proper sampling of ages, incomes, etc. occurred.
(again, such a station's demographics likely attract more older listeners, missing the younger groups). Victoria's average income level is quite likely above the national average, therefore the
sample likely overrepresents middle or higher incomes (and perhaps overrepresents Conservative voters).

The Leger poll, on the other hand, uses statistically valid sampling methods to interview respondents with a 50/50 male/female breakdown, a representative cross section of ages,geographical areas, and of lower middle and higher income areas using Stats Canada/Census Tract information.

Woody's apparent favouring of CFAX over Leger is laughable, as it only reveals his personal prejudices (he goes with the poll that supports his own view even if it's statistically invalid, and rejects the only statistically valid poll we have so far, Leger!) There is no rational argument he can possibly give for rejecting Leger over CFAX. He just betrays his own prejudicial ignorance!

I went to Leger's site this A.M. http://www.legermarketing.com/documents/spclm/060721ENG.pdf and noticed they give provincial or regional breakdowns of their results.
There is actually a morsel of "good news" for Woody: more B.C.ers did in fact say the evacuation effort was "Adequate"( BC: 40% "Adequate", 34% "Inadequate", 26% "Don't Know"). Still, this is a far cry from CFAX's 89% result for the "Adequate" camp, revealing just how questionnable CFAX is. Quebec and the whole Atlantic region had a majority "Inadequate" opinion, Ontario was about evenly split (40 Adequate/39 Inadequate), Prairies Alberta, and BC were the only regions definitely in the "Adequate" camp.

The sample is not "skewed" (biased, distorted), as Woody would have it, just because Quebec is heavily in the "Inadequate" camp. The sample WOULD be skewed if Quebec had been left out of a NATIONAL poll! The results merely reflect that different regions have different opinions. This is not "skewing".
Anyway, Woody's "Quebec skew" argument could equally be made about Alberta, which gave an ultra high "Adequate" rating, just as Quebec gave a very high "Inadequate" rating.

And the fact that different regions have different opinions is another strike against CFAX: A poll of listeners of a Victoria radio station cannot possibly reflect the broad range of opinions across Canada!
(cont...)

(cont...) Harper is now dependent politically on not only keeping his Quebec voters, but in growing his Quebec base. For this reason, Quebeckers' opinions about Harper
and Lebanon are VERY relevant politically. The Leger poll therefore should give Harper cause to worry.

...Of course those who are safely back in Canada from Lebanon are glad they are safely home, naturally. Of the snippets of interviews I've heard, there were a lot of "BUTS" after the "I'm relieved to be back"... Don't forget Canada had about 50,000 people in Lebanon when Israel attacked. We've so far gotten but a tiny fraction out, and I've heard interviews with desperate people still trapped in dangerous zones, with Canada's embassy again reportedly being not up to the job of looking after these people. Hardly a "success".

Give it up Woody. Your arguments are bogus and irrational, with no basis in fact or reason,lacking in common sense, demonstrating complete ignorance of the scientific basis of opinion polling, and of what a valid poll requires ! Take that.

We'll likely see some more polls come out, and I would bet my net worth that the next polls will not support the CFAX numbers! In fact, I'll bet the numbers will be even worse for Harper than in the Leger poll, 'cause more sordid facts will have emerged.
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Brain:
I agree with your critique of IMAC's distortions. If some countries criticized Hezbollah, this is a far cry from "greenlighting" Israel's move to destroy Lebanon's infrastrucure and destabilize the country!

I found your comments on polling very interesting, Bob 999. Woody is generally one of the wingers I get more of a "kick" out of, in that he is some less totally irrational, and actually has a sence of humour, but is clearly way out in the pussy willows and cat-tails on this one. My view.

If it's not in your news source favoutites, in my view, a must read during these kind of Middle East events.

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

For a slightly shifted perspective from the usual pro-US/Israeli slant.