That's OK

Realisticman, Wilfrodo and BC Boy and going to pay my $3,500 tax bill for the Owe-limp-ics. No problem!

Those who voted for this

Those who voted for this fiasco should be the ones to bear the brunt of these costs. Instead, those of us who had no choice in the matter will be paying an equal share while not having received ANY benefits.

That's theft. Pure and simple.

[COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]...the only satisfaction I get while I watch my wallet getting raped again.

hmmm, remember when the BNP membership list

got leaked to the web? Posted on Wikileaks yet? Maybe some membership lists here ought to do similar and the right people be made to pay for a change.

seth

I'm interested in what you're saying about hydro rates - and I might have some additional information you'd like to look at.

Send me an email:

discretion guaranteed.

Maybe Tieleman should check out

Just kidding, just kidding, you take a lot of shots and roll with the punches better than most....

But just one question about the bill. What is the bill? Theres been lots of angst over this, yet don't you think we should wait until Vanoc releases the final figures and THEN an objective discussion can take place? Aren't we putting the cart before the horse here?

seth on ROR's, etc

Good call. Everyone seems to be sporting a question mark over their heads regarding hydro rates, when anyone who bothered looking at the big-money issues surrounding privatization and natural resources in BC would be ripping their hair out about rip-off scumbag private power projects. These projects are a pure scam and ANYONE - and I absolutely mean ANYONE - involved should consider themselves anti-BC and anti-Canadian. Ignorance is not an excuse.

@happy

It's not just the bill total that is interesting, but the breakdown of the spending. Salaries don't annoy me much, they are just going to recirculate into our economy. Advertising though, that is kind of money being burnt IMO.

happy

The auditor general said that Olympic related spending is hidden in so many different places even he couldn't tally it all up.

But given that, I'll trust whatever the auditor's numbers say over anything the Campbell crowd gives us.

Will the HST actually pay off?

For all of the hype of the opponents to the HST, I am very curious as to whether or not it will actually be a win-win for the government.

We don't even know, as of yet, what the HST will be fully applied to, or not.

All governments, of all parties, get a little bit cocky; they tend to eventually fiddle with the numbers.

But, with a reduced voter turnout, what is there to actually stop them?

The one thing I disagree with Bill' headline, is that there is no correlation between the end of the Olympic Winter Games and BC's fiscal problems; Those problems go back to fiscal deceit that was practiced by Campbell just before and during the last Provincial election.

With our system of politics, that is fully allowed. When the NDP eventually do come back to power, they will play the same old nut shell game.

Frank

I'd agree that the Auditor General would be the best authority to deliver a report on this subject.

Camero409, speaking of the

Camero409, speaking of the BC Liberals, exclaimed, "Spread the word, lets VOTE THEM OUT next election!"

I'd love to. But Carole James would replace corruption with incompetence. She was a school trustee in SD61 and was poor in that role. For her to become premier of this province would be a travesty. For the NDP to have her as a leader does not say much about the party in general.

Camero409, you're right, but we have a political crisis right now. There's nothing to vote for.

Taxpayers???

Bill, I find it extremely irritating when citizens are referred to as "taxpayers" in commentary relating to government spending. This is a term popularized by organizations like the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation who use it to demote the citizen to the role of consumer of government services. Use of the term carries the implication that people who pay more taxes should be more upset at government waste or worse, should get a greater say in what the government does.

In fact, the people who should be most upset are children. They've had no say, most of them have gotten no benefit and yet it's a sure bet the debt will still be there for most if not all of their lives.

I love "taxpayer"

I love BEING a taxpayer.
It is not the only or most important (I hope) thing that defines me, but it is part of what I do.
Being upset at government waste is a part of that, but I am also proud to be contributing to public services. It is good to be working, and good to live in a country with a high standard of living.
I am well aware of what the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation thinks, but their ideology is their business. It clarifies public spending to think of what they are doing with the money they siphon off.
Look at all the lively debate about the "Owe"lympics.
What is bizarre is the debate in the US about health insurance. The same characters who object to public insurance have no problem with their country's tax money being used to purchase 46% of the total military spending of the entire planet!

disgracefull lack of critical thought

"The reality is that BC's economy is in the tank - and not from the Olympics."

Bill T: I'm glad you cleared that one up. Your headline suggested a much different slant that you obviously could not support with fact. Shame on you.

Best explanation of why one ought to be proud of paying taxes

Comes from Heather Mallick.

You can read it here:

http://www.heathermallick.ca/books/cake-or-death.html

The line I like best is this one:
I’m a fan of civilization, and taxes enable civilization.

G West.... kind of depends where taxes go

Public Good: Yes
The Proverbial Trough: No

Example:

Tax money for modern defensive and peace-keeping (in the Lester B. sense) military. Sure.

Tax money for bombs, jet fuel and logistics to bomb the crap out of people "over there". No.

Let me add a caveat to your quote:

Taxes enable a civilization to destroy another civilization.

Let me add another thought to yours. Proud to being paying taxes, and proud to charging royalties on natural resources.

Dr. Alex

Agreed.

Taxes are, at bottom, a method of redistribution and re-allocation in order to assure at least some of the promise about equality of opportunity and fundamental fairness is actually grounded on reality.

Right now the folks with the piles of cash are pretty happy about how the system keeps redistributing the booty to a smaller and smaller group of so-called 'winners'. Taxes, especially taxes on income and profits, get in the way of that process.

The debate about health care in the States right now is probably the clearest demonstration of this that I've seen in my lifetime.

Historically your connection between taxes and wars does seem to hold true...but, I think the record of what happened in Germany after the Allies achieved control of continental airspace indicates that there's another dynamic at work when we're talking about wars. Sometimes, taxes notwithstanding, people just continue to fight - long after any hope of victory has flown - because they see the exercise as one of simple survival.

The German economy was wrecked long before the war ended - and it sure wasn't taxes that kept them going.

Yammer

You're missing the point. Of course paying taxes is important. It allows the government to correct the inequities of capitalism. But we all have multiple roles and we should be engaging our government in the role of citizen, not the role of taxpayer. When Bill and the anti-tax right-wing crowd that monopolize the term address taxpayers and speak of "taxpayer's money", they are denigrating and sidelining the people who pay little or no taxes.

Language is important. I'd think that a "communications specialist" like Tieleman claims to be might recognize that.

The reality.

"The reality is that BC's economy is in the tank - and not from the Olympics." May be so. but what kind of bird brain goes out to spend a net of $5 billion on a 14 day party when they have an economy that is in the tank?

Some of the US lawmakers are

Some of the US lawmakers are beginning to wake up to what this "free trade" racket really is about and there's a movement going on among them, involving both parties, to kill the NAFTA and seriously consider getting out of the WTO.

I hope they succeed and we all can stand on our own feet again, instead of having to sell the land from under our feet to "foreign investors".

What's the point having an army and scream patriotic songs on "guard for thee" , when the country is up for sale to pay the bills we could easily pay ourselves, if we'd be permitted to do.

Ed Deak.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6233MS20100304?type=politicsNews

U.S. lawmakers launch push to repeal NAFTA

Doug Palmer, WASHINGTON
Thu Mar 4, 2010 4:35pm EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A small group of U.S. lawmakers unveiled legislation
on Thursday to withdraw from the North American Free Trade Agreement in the
latest sign of congressional disillusionment with free-trade deals.

The bill spearheaded by Rep. Gene Taylor, a Mississippi Democrat, would
require President Barack Obama to give Mexico and Canada six months notice
that the United States will no longer be part of the 16-year-old trade
pact.

Where did the Greeks taxes go?

How long before our streets are filled with real protest, rather than the black cladded poseurs!

G West... The German Economy was wrecked way before the war

Thanks to what happened in Paris in 1919.

Actually, I am not connecting taxation with war-making per se. What I am saying is I am against my tax tax money going into waging war. Many countries have a lot of taxes and they do not spend that tax money on waging wars. Many countries have essentially no taxation and are constantly in a state of war. What is ironic is those no/little taxed countries are usual pawns in proxy wars.

I lived in Scandinavia for a number of years. I was taxed up the ying-yang. However, there was evidence of where my tax money went all around me. Plus there was a tangible lesser degree of class envy in that society. Plus, I didn't see any of my tax money get spent on war mongering, or sent to various countries that claim they are victims, yet have a penchant for invading other countries.

Caveat: Although we did produce the despicable and notorious "Raufoss" ammunition.

skywalker

Uh...the Ian Thow of the political arena?

Yep

I'd gladly pay that level of taxes if we had the kind of country you're talking about....w/out the wars to boot.

"The BC Liberals are so

"The BC Liberals are so incompetent that they can't even raise money with new taxes - unbelievable."

Yes it's unbelievable, so why do you say they are? Will you analysts and pundits please cut it out? "They" are not incompetent or stupid. They know exactly what they're doing, secure in the knowledge that any published "analysis" of their actions will fail to acknowledge their willful intention to screw the people yet again. The implication is that they're good people doing the best they can, it's just good intentions gone awry.
What poppycock. After so much evidence, year after year and generation after generation, describing the elite and their puppets as "incompetent" is delusional.

@Cynic

I see where you're coming from and I don't, basically, disagree...

But, the implication is horrendous nonetheless. Who provides the 'intelligence' for this operation? Who's the mastermind behind the wholesale 'theft' of resources and impoverishment of the working poor and the vast majority of the middle class?

Which one of the gang of ciphers in Campbell's cabinet has the intelligence to pull this off?

Because, if we're going to accept your 'analysis' then 'somebody' has to be in charge - somebody must be calling the shots.

Isn't it possible that we're just watching a 'cult' in action and that most of these people will one day wake up and realize what a mess they've made of things?

I see that small petty

I see that small petty heartless monster is now cutting money for the most vulnerable. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/03/05/bc-budget-cuts-welfare-homeless.html

Gives banks more tax breaks. What about the huge raises Campbell gave himself and MLA's along with the pension being restored, stocked up and made retroactive?

If this was in Europe people would be taking to the streets in huge numbers.

The major media from newspapers to radio and other tv networks is so pro Campbell it is sickening.

Yet if the NDP were in, the screeching would never stop. At least with ferries and skytrain cars the NDP kept those jobs in BC unlike Campbell. The convention centre over runs and yet nary a peep from the media. But if it was NDP it would be front page news.

The problem in BC is so much of the media is owned by the same organisation and that many of the people that follow that media do not look into things themselves and believe all the spoil they are told.

I think it is time for a

I think it is time for a change of government here, even by physical force if necessary. There will be nothing left come 2013. Recall or revolution, either work for me.

Reality Check

This article could have been written before the Olympic Circus commenced. And, it's nonsense to suggest that the Olympics is not a big part of the real story.

I drove between Vancouver and Whistler many times during the entire Sea-to-Sky highway construction project, so I don't need to examine the accounts. Someone should have video'd what we saw - a huge fleet of shiny, American owned construction machines, and the real purpose, as everyone knows, was to create opportunities for massive profits from real estate deals.

The partying that I witnessed in Vancouver night after night was like a scene from a Fellini movie. What was the message? Fitness? National pride?

So, the party's over and now we start to face reality. Why don't we take a shot this time at doing that with our eyes open. Who thinks getting rid of Gordon Campbell and voting NDP in the next election is the answer? Hands up!

I'm not saying there's nothing we can do, but swapping one band of idiots for another is not the answer. The political system itself is broken, but sadly the public doesn't have sufficient knowledge of the system to understand how it is broken.

What was once called the press corp should have been able to provide that kind of understanding, but we don't have a press corp today. Instead we have spin doctors of various hues.

There are no political parties in Canada today that deserve the public's support. Let's start with that obvious fact.

BC Lib "incompetence"

Cynic has is right, G West, horrendous implications and all. The Campbell government knows exactly what it is doing (Harper gov't too). And it is extremely competent.

G West asks "who's the mastermind" - the neoconservative idea about how society should work is the mastermind. All of the relevant people believe in this idea, so they don't need explicit orders from evil masterminds any more than officials in a competent socialistic government would need explicit orders about how to do their jobs.

The very clear neocon agenda simply involves transferring public assets to private owners. This is done by undermining public assets through funding cuts, then selling them off to the private sector because of their "inefficiency".

The general public gets duped into believing there is nothing sinister going on because they believe columnists like Tieleman who rant about supposed incompetence.

ChrisB A Fellini Movie?

Actually, that is a brilliant description.

Living in BC is quite surreal.

khed67, You're talking Conspiracy Theory.

Of Course.

What else would you call the Bilderberger or Davos or Council of Foreign Relations Meetings.

Don't know about Gordo, but Steve-0 has been to them all.

Dan the Socialist. If you want the media to pay attention:

All you have to do is screw up Bill Good's ferry route. It is the only thing he cares about. He will rant and rave about it until the cows come home.

You know, life is good (no pun intended)

As long as the trains (oops), ferries run on time.

Dr A and conspiracies

It's not a conspiracy, it's just group of like-minded people with a vision. And as they pursue their vision, the financial rewards they reap reinforce their conviction that they are doing it right.

Anyone who believes in the power of the "free" market will agree with the logic of this vision, and support the means/methods used to further it.

GWest

You are ever the optimist - working on the assumption they are asleep, and just need a good poke in the proverbial ribs. :~)

GWest

Psychopaths (Snakes in Suits?) will never care about others, all they care about is themselves.

The people affected by BC Liberal policies should react in a way that will ensure their tormentors equally feel the pain.

I think they'd have a lot of public support.

Thanks for the suggestions - all good ideas and analyses

I guess I'm just skeptical about the 'idea' of a conspiracy...I just don't think any of these guys are THAT smart - perhaps Frank hints at the best answer - That there's a certain kind of sociopathic personality which finds its most perfect match in a particular kind of business/corporate reality. These guys, when shuffled from private enterprises into government enabling and facilitating (which is, after all what Campbell is all about) manage to turn both democracy and humane social policy on its head - without ever considering the cost to the majority of the populace.

In other words, these guys haven't really planned to be selfish bastards - they just can't help themselves AND, for them it's second nature anyway.

Why, though, do we let them get away with it without putting up a more spirited fight?

How to Challenge Malfeasance

"Make them feel the pain." I agree ... and I think it can be done.

Some years ago I was the victim of some government sponsored abuse which continued when I tried to challenge it in court. Eventually I realized that a key part of the story behind the abuse was a conspiracy. Yes, an actual conspiracy! In this case it involved a surprising number of people, most of them lawyers, and they weren't particularly smart. In fact the conspiracy doesn't appear to have been planned. There was no real plan, just a goal - to deceive the victims.

There's now quite a lengthy record of my efforts in court. Next week I'm going to commence another action that will add to that record. This time it will be a criminal proceding. Someone made the mistake of committing perjury in the last proceding.

If I can prevent the Attorney General's crown counsel from seizing control of the process and then staying it, then the accused will in due course have to enter a plea. I think I can do that because I do have a plan, and because the accused works for the A.G.

We'll see if the truth and a plan can trump stupidity and arrogance.

let

the hoople heads pay.

G West

You have to be one in order to climb the political ladder. I am sure no other qualifications are required.

khed67 and conspiracies

"It's not a conspiracy, it's just a group of like-minded people with a vision. And as they pursue their vision, the financial rewards they reap reinforce their conviction that they are doing it right.

Anyone who believes in the power of the 'free' market will agree with the logic of this vision, and support the means/methods used to further it."

“No no no… there’s no conspiracies. It’s just the 'logic' of a group of likeminded capitalists’ folk who are making a little extra cash by pursuing their misguided beliefs in the powers of what they call the 'free' market. What’s needed is the sound logic a few socialists-commie folk who will make promises to take some of that extra 'free' market cash and give it to the simpleminded constituents who lack the 'means/methods'. Conspiracies do not exist…. just the occasional overreaching of a few incompetent capitalists' folk who are misguided by their convictions. Now go back to sleep”

What Olympics legacy?

"...The reality is that BC's economy is in the tank - and not from the Olympics...."

Yes, Bill - but that is precisely the point. It's one thing to consider hosting the 17-day Party Of the Century when all your bills are paid, your credit's rosy, and you have money in the bank. It's quite another thing to be sweeping the party guests' Doritos off the carpet in the cold hard light of the morning after while asking: "WHAT WHERE WE THINKING?"

And yet you still stand by that 2009 comment: "I still support the Olympics...if only for the job creation, economic development and international profile..." ?! I'm surprised.

Bill, every sports economist on record will tell you that, except for the brief 17-day blip of 'international profile' media attention, there IS no job creation or economic development post-Games.

Dr. Jeffrey Owen of Indiana State University, for example, who has studied Olympic host cities all over the planet, wrote recently in the journal, 'The Industrial Geographer':

“To date, there has not been a single study of an Olympics or other large-scale sporting event that has found empirical evidence of significant economic impacts.”

More at: Why The Olympics Are Bad Business' at: http://www.ethicalnag.org/2010/02/14/olympics/