HST Seems To Be a Dead Duck...

Yeah, today's release of the latest Angus Reid Strategies poll, taken after the HST vote in Parliament, shows the Cons in BC have taken a massive dive of 2% from the 2008 election:

Con: 42% (-2% from 2008)
Lib: 23% (+4% from 2008)
NDP: 26% (same)

http://www.visioncritical.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/2009.12.14_Politics_CAN.pdf

And if the federal NDP had their way in opposing the GST reduction from 7% to 5%, BC would be facing a 14% HST, not a 12% HST.

Yeah, and the BC provincial results are as follows:

NDP: 33% (-9% from May election)
Lib: 29% (-17% from May election)
Con: 18% (+16% from May election)
Green: 14% (+6% from May election)

http://threehundredeight.blogspot.com/2009/12/new-british-columbia-provincial-poll.html

Bill Vander Zalm and BC deputy Conservative Party leader Chris Delaney's "Fight the HST" campaign is certainly having an effect.

It's apparent that the "right-wing" issue of "opposing taxes" has voters flocking over to the Conservatives in both BC and Ontario.

And the left-wing/labour-backed Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives came out with another "positive" study of the HST and concluded:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/hst/article/738403--hst-won-t-hurt-much-report-says

And the new NDP government in Nova Scotia is also on the verge of raising their HST by another 2%.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotia/1157058.html

The 12% HST has now been enacted at the federal level.

When the BC government brings in legislation to repeal the 7% social services tax and if the NDP votes against the bill, the NDP would, in effect, be voting in favour of the 12% HST + 7% PST for a total BC rate of 19%.

Sigh.

Why is it that some

Why is it that some politicians seem to think that what they say is always right and to heck with the peasants? The voters they claim to represent. Right here in the little town of Victoria we have a council member, who used to be a NDP MP telling the folks that they have no right to try to get a referenda on the most expensive thing the town has tried to push through regardless of opposition. Hunter has the weird idea that , even though a 63 million plus bridge was not mentioned in the run up to the municipal election( sort of like Gordo's HST) we should simply roll over as we had elected them to run the town. And folks keep asking why bother voting as the elected ones will do what they want anyway. I see a lot of town council folks losing a job next time around if they continue to take the position that , they are alwasy right and to hell with the rest of you. So now we have a so called Liberal provincial government trying to ram a tax not mentioned prior to a provincial election and a ex NDP MP town council chastizing us for actually wanting a say on a huge expense. Gordo and Lynn Hunter both seem to feel the peasants have no right beyond voting now and again and we should leave all the thinking to them.

r/man

The CCPA was talking about the Ontario numbers which are different than the BC numbers.

You'll also notice that although the CCPA admits that the people on the bottom will be hurt the most they support it anyway. Which does seem somewhat subjective. I guess they're not really on the side of the poor are they?

Protest the HST

Old Gordo has that smug look on his face again knowing that with his majority government he can and will force the HST on all of us. It's a personal issue because all of us will be hit hard right in the pocket books. So turn about is fair play. I say lets make it personal for him too. His beloved Olympics are coming up soon. Everyone should refuse to work for the games. Boycott them, protest them at every opportunity while the world is watching. We're already going to have to pay the debt for generations so why not give old Gordo a real good political black eye in return for his arrogance and mistreatment of the people he's supposed to represent.

Frank

Well Frank, if the CCPA like the Ontario 14% I guess they might become favourable to the BC 12%.

r/man

There's other numbers involved besides the difference in rates.

But to reiterate, why am I not surprised that you like the CCPA's findings that the lowest rungs will be badly hurt and that's ok?

Conductor274

"why not give old Gordo a real good political black eye"

Well I could order a miniature plaster cathedral from Milan...

hi george

Oh no, not the "Elites"! Who are you, George Bush?

And here, despite B.C.

And here, despite B.C. Liberals insisting that they too will ram through the HST, the public will not "shut up."
==========

Uhm for the most part people have shut up here. It is not as if many did anything but complain to friends and post online.

Unlike European countries, Canadians won't take to the streets in large numbers.

But...

would the BC NDP reverse the legislation? And haven't the BC Fibs and Fed Cons purposefully written in a hevty penalty clause if the HST legislation is overturned?

A Bunch of Bullies

Like it or lump it and most are feeling the lumps as BC Government governs over its people like they were ITS. What is that all about? Well lets get IT straight then BC citizens say no to the HST. It is a time for change or at least leave some loose change in the pockets of British Colombians as they are also hard pressed with the HIGH COST of living. I do believe the Federal NDP will have a significant win in the next election because party is against HST implementation at this time.

The Conservatives are Bullies too!

The people have written in their Own Clause As Harper finds himself written out of the history books as prime minister of Canada as he plays Santa with big investors. Like he has done the country any justice anyways as BC is a fine example of that as Freedom of Info guy is so good at his job anything is possible for Campbell and that is a fact. DELETE! And all slept through the night as not a IT was stirring as the cops have cleaned IT all up.

Will they shut up?

Well if they call an election we'll find out. If we have to wait another few years after paying the tax at every purchase They will remember. That much is clear on the coffee circuit.

Dan the Socialist

The "Voice" of the people should never be undermined and although taking to the streets in large numbers may not be the norm, just wait until election time to see who shows up. I think you will be surprised on how the Vocalists has his say on election day as this isn't something that is going away.

Brad

"Yeah, today's release of the latest Angus Reid Strategies poll,"

Of course you said last year that Angus Reid's polls aren't worth the paper they're printed on and that's why no other pollster uses their "online" methods. I guess you've changed your opinion of ARS.

"And the left-wing/labour-backed Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives came out with another "positive" study of the HST and concluded:"

If you bothered to read the study you'll find it was about a province called Ontario. Home of the Maple Leafs, the Argonauts and the TigerCats. You may also find that they didn't study Campbell's implementation here in BC to see if the result was what you've already claimed it was via some strange logic.

Perhaps in your world the McGuinty tax credits to Ontarians will also apply to residents of BC? Please provide a link to an actual Ontario government website claiming cheques will be sent to people with a BC address.

Passing on the HST savings to ME!

A businessperson will pass on savings to ME, if they make more money via them using the HST. Ya right and cows can fly, how about cows have flies!
Lets see most of the crap we buy is made in China and we know their workers make .25 per hour, (corn is 9 cents per doz. there) So a bird bath at the store is listed as $249 “BUT” is now on sale for $149 “BUT” it was manufactured for $5 and shipping was $8 so the total cost is $13. The profit will be $136 now add the HST of $17.88
Now lets see that HST of $17.88 is a tax right? So the business person mush forward that money to the government right? So how exactly do I save anything?
Like I always say prices are make believe. Lets see Jimmy Pattison a few years back was worth $1.6 billion, that was on TV, today on Google Jimmy is worth $5 billion. Wal-Mart is a lot cheaper yet they are far richer than Jimmy. Guess Wal-Mart sells more stuff from China hell they are just giving the stuff away LOL.
I love how business people want us to lower our wages to compete with Chinese workers. That’s another Ya right moment.
I think the real lesson with the HST is the fact that 82% of us said no to it, and we are totally ignored by our leaders, proving we don’t live in a Democracy.
Proud Canadian, I use to be.

It is REAL DEMOCRACY

I guess it is real democracy - the government says you pay and we pay.
Well, you know what! Even a Communist system was more honest then this.

Which politician in its right mind will think that this will benefit the people? Those who make about $40,000 a year or less (and I even venture to those who make about $50-60,000 and support a family) and in addition live in BC?

Did you party leaders and the rest in politics fail Math in high school?

Did you people totally lose your minds?

I am not a big spender and only buy what is necessary for my household. I don't have credit cards debt and I don't spend my weekends at the mall. So bring on high tax because you won't be making money on me.

But...unfortunately with this HST major basic needs will be affected and people will cut back spendings on basic items like food and clothing.

Not to mention public services. So my questions is

WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GUYS SPEND MY TAX MONEY IF YOU CAN'T BALANCE THE BUDGET AND ALWAYS ASK FOR MORE? I AM THE HIGHEST TAXED PERSON IN THE WORLD AND YOU ALL POLITICIANS ARE A BUNCH OF CORRUPT CRIMINALS. YOU SHOULD ALL BE IN JAIL!

BC Conservative Party - Tax Elimination Agenda...

Ok, folks forget about the "tax and spend" NDP and the "tax less and spend less" Liberals. They are either increasing the HST (NDP government in Nova Scotia) or introducing it (BC, Ontario, and probably Manitoba NDP government later).

If you REALLY want to eliminate the HST and the carbon tax to keep more money in your pockets, then the BC Conservative Party would be your only answer.

And their policies include:

1. "We believe that the government must commit to the reduction of taxes."

2. "Will ensure that BC will have the lowest provincial personal taxation rates in Canada."

3. "Will eliminate the BC Property Transfer Tax."

4. "The carbon tax will be repealed."

5. "The provincial sales tax at 7%, will be reduced to 6% shorly after we are elected and will eventually be eliminated entirely."

http://www.conservativesbc.com/downloads/policies.pdf

Taxation heaven!

Thats' why Bill Vander Zalm and BC deputy Conservative Party leader Chris Delaney's are leading the "Fight the HST" campaign.

And that's why voters are now moving dramatically to the right in both Ontario and BC with the latest BC polling results:

NDP: 33% (-9% from May election)
Lib: 29% (-17% from May election)
Con: 18% (+16% from May election)
Green: 14% (+6% from May election)

Luke! No thanks.

The conservative plan is to have no one paying taxes, and just borrow or print money as needed. (for pay raises) Government runs on tax revenues, even in Roman times!
No taxes. No services!
What to do with the poor? Jail them all, start work camps, pay them less than Chinese workers so we can compete. Follow the USA into wars so we can kill off the surplus of healthy canadians. We don't want people that are free thinkers that don't own companies.
Don't you see how our leaders are operating, gag orders for teachers, $10,000 fines for signs saying the Olypics suck, the HST when 82% of us say no. No homes for the poor just warehoused. More jail spaces are being built. Importing 45,000 foreign worker into BC alone and then bitching like hell when paying welfare to our own discarded citizens.
Conservatives won't change this mess, just more people like me will be Gaged and Jailed... at no savings to the tax payer.
A police state is not my dream...

HST

Fock the HST.....Fock Gordon Campbell....Don`t forget,families in Ontario are getting 1000.00$ to "help" adjust to the HST!

I can hack the tax,the economy can`t, wait and see,double dip recession...HA HA..

And remember what the LIAR gordon campbell said last year in his televised 10 point economic plan....In prime time on all the news stations...

Let me remind you...A quote from the Focking Liar and law breaker gordon campbell..

"The best way to stimulate the economy is to put more money in the hands of the public, reduce taxes to consumers, it`s the public with confidence and money that will drive the recovery"

The man is a compulsive liar, and, I hope the Fedral liberals, Ontario liberals,BC Liberals believe with all their heart that the tax is good,because the BC Liberals will be reduced to under 20 seats, Good luck Tim Hudak as premier of Ontario...Great showing Jack Layton, you have now moved up to official opposition status, Federal liberals....

You mean a northern version of the Whigs..Who?...Whigs...No one will remember the liberals either!

Cheers

Brad

and the "tax less and spend less" Liberals

Who would that be? Because the Liberals have spent far more money than the NDP. We're on the hook for payments for decades. And for much of the population taxes have increased under the Liberals.

HST

Thank you Bill for your feisty article.

To win we need not use their language.

Here is my suggestion for a one-syllable nickname for the three syllable tax acronym

Rather than calling it the HST, I recommend referring to it as the
HEIST

Boy have you got this one backwards Luke!

"tax and spend" NDP and the "tax less and spend less" Liberals.". What planet are you on? It was good for a laugh though.

Skywalker...

Extra, Extra, Read All About It!

The NDP has never seen a tax that they didn't like. The Nova Scotia NDP government is geared to increase their HST rate by 2%!

As for the BC NDP tax, spend, and debt policy you already read it here on the Tyee...

http://thetyee.ca/News/2009/04/10/NDPPlatform/

There ya go. The "Tax and Spend" NDP at work. :)

Ya better hold on to your wallet if these characters ever get in. ;)

Hear ye hear ye

BC Liberals hold the record for largest deficit in BC history!

They've raised our combined debt and contractural obligations to over $100 billion in less than a decade!

Median incomes have declined unlike every other province in Canada!

The bottom half of the population is paying more tax!

BCers are paying more taxes and receiving less services. This was brought to you by the BC business community via their puppets, the BC Liberals.

"The NDP has never seen a tax that they didn't like"

More like you've never seen a tax you didn't like. James, Hampton and Layton all oppose the HST. You support it.

Garbage man Luke

Not this time Luke....We argued pre-election, I told you the BC Government(gordon campbell) was going to run a $4billion dollar deficit,and they did..
Don`t bother talking about a 2.8 billion deficit, a billion from the HEIST tax bribe has been applied, anything the NDP are doing in Nova Scotia is because Liberal`s everywhere cooked the books, the NDP won in Nova Scotia only to discover the provincial debt was 10 times what the ousted liberal party said it was.

$20billion dollar bc debt in 2001 in BC and now that debt has risen to $43 billion dollars, go crawl back under your rock manure breath!

Cheers

FYIs...

a) The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives recieves many gov't grants so is therefore going to eventually get w/ the program.

b) Mary Polak spoke out in favour of the HST: http://bit.ly/5HSTsh "We know it's the single biggest thing we can do to spur economic growth". Let's see what we shall see.

Frank...

Is that your buddy Brian Gough who just crawled back from the grave? :D

salty dog

Surely you weren't surprised by Brad's (Luke) somehat questionable math skills that led him to making that $4 billion dollar mistake?

Even if he hadn't been counting oodles of wiener schnitzels at the time we knew he was going to be off by a few billion anyway, he's the only one surprised by how bad his numbers were.

Brad

Grave? You mean the same grave where Brian dances on buried Liberal financial documents?

The recession of 2006-2008

Does anyone recall the great recession hitting BC in 2006-2007?

Because I don't and yet apparently Liberal spending had to shoot up.

Liberal spending projection in 2005
32.4 billion

Liberal spending projection only 3 years later, in 2008
$37.7 billion

And yet that's after selling off or privatizing (or doing-whatever-we-need-to-do-in-order-to-hide-our-numbers) crown corporations and letting P3's run roughshod across the province racking up over $50 billion in future payments.

I wonder how many frequent-flyer points BCers receive when the Liberals, aka the "never refuse to give buddy a contract" party, run up a $50 billion dollar credit card?

And what did we get? More homelessness, more poverty, longer wait times. I guess we should be lucky they didn't have more money to manage so badly.

Frank...

I realize that not everyone is chartered accountant material but...

According to BC public accounts that figure was actually $33.835 billion as at March 31, 2001, the end of the fiscal year.

http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/OCG/cfa/PA/00-01/PA%202001%20Debt.pdf

Yikes! That's only a $14 billion discrepancy. ;)

Brad...

I realize not everyone is Grade 10 English material, but the comment you're referring to came from "Salty dog", not I.

By the way, although you were off by $4 billion on this year's deficit I still think you guys should take a whack at it next year. After all, Liberal guesses this year pretty much kept the province in stitches for 6 months and you can't put a price tag on that kind of comedy!

um, actually, I guess the price tag was $4 billion... never mind...

Did you get re-hired Luke? Desperation 101

Thanks Frank..

Indeed, financial con job...Like trying to keep the port mann bridge build off the provincial books,auditor General John Doyle states.."The port mann bridge build is NOT a self supporting crown corporation " and he states "There is no bridge,no tolls,no revenue,maybe in 20 years it will be a self supporting crown corporation"

"The port mann bridge is NEW debt"

So add another 3.5 billion$ to the debt, Campbell doesn`t have that debt on the ledger sheet..

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2009/12/haida-nation-meets-snake-oil-salesman.html

Cheers

Salty dog

One can't turn over a moss-covered rock in this province without uncovering a few million in Liberal debt hidden from the public.

HST

Thank you, Bill, for volunteering to lead the fight against the HST. Most of the people are with you but as you probably know, you will have to live with a lot of comments about your character and morality from those you oppose! However, know that you are not alone and that you have our unwavering support!! Best of luck, Walt!!

Frank...

Ooops my bad.

Anyhoo, Moody's re-confirmed BC's AAA credit rating just last month:

Nothin' to sneeze at. ;)

http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/news_releases_2009-2013/2009FIN0015-000576.htm

And the Powell River Perp still doesn't understand how capital expenditures are allocated according to GAAP (no, not GARP).

Using "his" PMB/Hwy 1 capital expenditure figure of $3.5 billion and allocated over the 40-year life of the project, the government would expense $87,500,000/year during the duration of that time period.

Whether the $3.5 billion is classified as "taxpayer-supported" debt or "self-supported" debt is another matter. Both figures added together represent "total debt".

Looks like the Libs are using the NDP's 1990's "British Columbia Transportation Finance Authority" as a template, which was a crown corp. akin to the current Transportation Investment Corp.

Brad

Whenever anyone here talks about debt you go for the Moody's quote you keep handy.

The debt hasn't been accounted for in the usual ways Brad, and no amount of slicing and dicing can change those facts.

Ha Ha....Moody`s....They said the same thing about Bear Stearns

And KPMG ...Gordon Campbell`s number one auditing agency gave Bernie Madoff a two thumbs up on all audits of his operations,yet Bernie Madoff never even made one trade...Too Much..

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Auditor+general+rightly+rejects+claim+Port+Mann+Bridge+self+supporting/2318565/story.html

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Auditor+general+holds+trump+card/2324692.html

cheers

The lawsuits are a plenty

And ratings agencies,KPMG...in up to their ears in it...Ha HA

http://www.scribed.com/doc/2139825/Victim-Complaint-Against-Bernard-L-Madoff

Brad

"Looks like the Libs are using the NDP's 1990's "British Columbia Transportation Finance Authority" as a template"

Debt hiding started long before the NDP, don't you recall Bennett shooting his flaming arrow onto a barge in Okanagan Lake?

OOps

Here is that last link...

http://www.scibd.com/doc/2139825/Victim-Complaint-Against-Bernard-L-Madoff

Frank...

Remember "Wrongway Feldman" from Gilligan's Island? I beieve that he is now again amongst us. :D

Sorry about those link errors

One more time...

http://www.scirbd.com/doc/21398275/Victim-Complaint-Against-Bernard-L-Madoff

Cheers

Brad

"Remember "Wrongway Feldman" from Gilligan's Island?"

Didn't Mel Couvelier play him in the movie?

I guess I better put on my glasses

Just check this list of the reputable firms named in the 60$billion dollar ponzi scheme

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21398275/Victim-Complaint-Against-Bernard-L-Madoff

Ratings agencies are only as good as the information that is handed over to them to study.

Cheers

Salty Dog

The Right takes care of each other, the corporate sector, banks, political parties, rating agencies etc. Its all the same people sitting on each other's boards.

If Campbell wants to declare the debt to build a bridge as something else he's free to and neither the rating agency nor the press call him on it. And of course no one cares when Taylor now, or Campbell in the future, takes a board position with a company she or he helped out.

And this from today`s Terrace daily

BC government misled the public AGAIN..

http://www.terracedaily.ca/show5168a/GOVERNMENT_NEWS_RELEASE_MISLEADING_AND_INACCURATE

Haida nation meets snakeoil salesman Paul Taylor..

Who? Paul Taylor..CEO foe ICBC during the chop shop scandal, rigged auctions,insider thievery, and then Paul Taylor fled to the gold rush of unsustainable power buying contracts...Cheers

Bad Link

The link in the story to the anti-HST consumer petition is bad. Here is the addy:

www2.nomealtax.ca

Sign it people! This tax is a cash grab to cover the true costs of privatization of government services and the Olympics.

Combine a recession with the astronomical jump in the cost of living and the wage stagnation of the last 15 years (for more than 90% of people) and what do you get? US, BENT OVER A BARREL. We are not serfs!

There are some differences in BC's and Ontario's HST

@ realisticman: HST is set to 13% in Ontario, not 14%. This is because their provincial sales tax is 8%, so adding it to the 5% GST makes for 13% HST. Our provincial sales tax in BC is 7%, which is why our HST will be only 12%.

Note that the price increases Ontarians are facing are different from what we're looking at because some goods and services that were exempt from PST in BC (e.g. restaurant meals) were not exempt in Ontario. They were already paying 13% on eating out, so their restaurant prices will not increase with the introduction of the HST, unlike ours. I'm sure there are other examples.

In addition, the two provincial governments got their own picks at what to exempt from the new HST. BC decided to exempt gasoline sales and to provide rebates for home heating fuel and new houses priced up to $520,000, while Ontario exempted prepared food and beverages sold for $4.00 or less and newspapers. (Both provinces exempted children-sized clothing and footwear, children's car seats, books, diapers and feminine hygiene products.)

As a result, the additional HST impact on family budgets in BC and ON could be very different, depending on actual consumption patterns.

I notice Luke has started quoting himself.

It really doesn't prove any more than being out of ammo>

On the CCPA report and impacts of HST on the poor in Ontario

Earlier on this thread, a couple of people mentioned that the CCPA's national office report finds that people on the bottom will be hurt the most by the HST in Ontario, but concluded that it's ok to go ahead with the tax anyways.

It's important to note that the CCPA analyzed not just the HST and its low income credits, but the whole package of tax reforms introduced along with the HST in Ontario's 2009 Budget. This package includes a refundable property tax credit that will be available to renters too (novel!) and a number of personal income tax cuts.

If you actually read the CCPA report, you'll note that most low and modest income people who file tax returns will be slightly better off overall, as the tax cuts and credits offset the increased costs of the HST.

The people who will be most affected are the homeless and other marginalized groups who do not file income tax returns and therefore will not benefit from the relief measures offered.

The CCPA report does not say that this is ok. The authors recommend that the government devise special measures outside the tax system to compensate those marginalized groups. This is a much better solution than overhauling a tax package that will benefit the vast majority of low and middle income Ontarians.

We haven't done similar analysis for BC yet, but it seems likely that the situation in BC will be different. This is because we don't have the low income tax cuts and the property tax credit that came along with Ontario's HST.

I explain the differences between the two provinces in more detail in a recent post on our Policy Note blog at www.policynote.ca/2009/12/15/hst-and-family-budgets .

NDP in the nineties financial numbers crush Gordon Campbell

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2009/04/23/BCEcon/

And Luke if you want to add BC`s contractual obligations under Gordon Campbell..The BC Debt is approaching 90$ billion dollars, hey, but whats 50$billion between friends.

Bill Tieleman weighs in

Thanks for some of the kind comments here on my fight against the HST - most appreciated.

I want to make two points in this post, in response to comments here and elsewhere.

First, many people still think the HST is going to help fund public services like health care in the future - this is completely incorrect [other than possibility the one-time $1.6 billion federal grant would go there].

Finance Minister Colin Hansen wrote in the Vancouver Sun on August 19: "While this tax change is significant, it does not make any significant impact on how much money the provincial government takes out of the economy to pay for health, education, or vital social services."

"The projected revenue under HST is about the same as the revenue that we might anticipate if we stayed with the PST system," Hansen concluded.

Second, regarding the CCPA Ontario study, United Steelworkers economist Erin Weir made the following points to a legislative committee:

"This budget legislation amounts to a transfer of $3 billion from the public purse - and billions more from Ontario consumers - to the corporate sector. This huge gift to Bay Street is justified by the claim that it will increase investment and employment in the province," Weir said....."I am skeptical of that claim."

The CCPA study is of questionable value in Ontario; it has no relevance here.

Bill Tieleman...

Erin Weir is also a research associate with the CCPA.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/offices/national/about/research-associates

Iglika

"If you actually read the CCPA report, you'll note that most low and modest income people who file tax returns will be slightly better off overall, as the tax cuts and credits offset the increased costs of the HST."

But, as you go on to state, many of the poor don't file income taxes. Which means my statement was correct.

As for the CCPA recommending "special measures"... well, whatever. You came out and said the HST is a good thing and that's the way it was reported. There was no "buts" in the articles I read.

I might as well say building a new roof for BC Place is win-win for everyone and if Campbell will cure child poverty that would be peachy too. The fact is the Ontario government didn't do it and the CCPA gave the HST a thumbs up regardless of the actual effects on people at the bottom.

I note.

This huge gift to Bay Street is justified by the claim that it will increase investment and employment in the province,"
Almost every action which fuels the "class war" (stealing from the poor and giving to the rich) is justified by this line. It is a self-serving bunch of BS. Thanks for the comments and your continued fight Bill against another ideologically driven attack on the average person.

IThe claim is supposed to be justified. It is only to the loyal liberals who are the recipients of the gift and those who still can't see any cause-effect connection other than "NDP is bad and Liberals are good". It follows all the nonsense about "tax and spend" labels. It is all about who you tax and who it is spent on.

income tax

Let's face it, people who are too poor to bother filing income tax returns probably pay some of the highest tax rates in the country.

As a self-employed person, who MUST charge GST (HST).......

.....the increase from 5% to 12% will be a boon to my after tax (net) income. I'll leave it to the 'dear readers' to figure out how that one works.

Happen to be reading

Zinn's "People's History of the United States".
Andrew Jackson features there so the quote above caught my eye.
Could have been said by one of our current politicos while they drive working poor to vote for "Run of the River" or "Sea Pen Salmon" or mineral development in the sacred (not socred) tribal headwater.
over

Iglika Ivanova

I stand corrected on the Ontario tax rate. You are correct. It will be interesting if you (the CCPA) are able to assess the overall impact of the introduction of HST here in BC, taking into account the home heating fuel rebates as well as the low-income lower tax rates, etc.

RickW

Your ITCs will increase as will those of your registered business clients that pay the 12%.

Rick W is a lot smarter than realistman realizes!

It's pretty obvious that RickW is in the home renovations/repair/construction sector and that the already big problem of "under the table" no GST charged work will become huge when consumers can save not 5% but 12% on all work done!

As a consultant - and no, I don't do work under the table - I will be forced to charge all clients 12% instead of 5%, which will lead to problems for both my business and my clients.

The ITC - Input Tax Credits - won't amount to a hill of beans to me - pens and paper are my big capital expense - and most of my clients aren't businesses, so they can neither write it off nor pass it on.

And yes, I fully supported the Conservatives' decision to reduce the regressive GST from 7% to 5% - now they have more than doubled that tax!

Tieleman...

Bill, you have a very exaggerated opinion of your own self importance. The HST is going through. Your "axe the tax" nonsense was just as successful/

Anti-HST Tactic

There may be another tactic that the anti-HST people can employ to complement all the other endeavors.

If the HST becomes a reality then all people in BC that own Canadian mutual funds will see their returns eroded further because the HST will be applied to the MER(the fee that the financial institutions charge to manage all mutual funds). The financial institutions levy the MER onto each fund they have whether the stock markets are rising or falling. If any of you that have had investments in mutual funds, then you may have noticed that they tend to decrease in value faster in bad times than they increase in value in good times. The HST factor will just make this type of investment even less productive.

I suggest that all of us who have mutual funds as investments redeem them early next year, after they have paid whatever dividends they may have accumulated this year. Although there are many different funds with many different financial institutions, these institutions will respond to a greater than normal number of redemptions, especially if the markets are not falling in any dramatic fashion. As a matter of fact, I will tell my financial institution my reason for dumping my investments in their funds, because of the HST's impact on my rates of return.

As individuals, we have little or no clout when dealing with government types, but you can rest assured that the financial industry has the ear of all levels of government. If they see their incomes being eroded by a backlash to the HST, they will make their concerns known in very short order.

This may not be the defining moment in the fight against the HST. What it may do is bring pressure on Campbell and Co. from a sector that they would have least expected to hear from. Pressure on the government is our greatest weapon, and if that pressure is exerted from many different sources, there will be a greater chance for success.

As the great Yogi Berra said "IT AIN'T OVER UNTIL IT'S OVER"

Tieleman

RickW said that he's self employed. There's no way you can assume that his clients are consumer end users and not businesses, which would be eligible for including their HST costs the same as they now include their GST costs as ITCs.

Previously in September you wrote that, "...while I pay an extra 7% rent without gaining a square centimetre more space.". OK, but that extra 7% is neutral and becomes and ITC, as well the entire PST you have been currently paying on your pens and a paper, and on your telephone, etc. Your expenses will decrease, unless you have lots of haircuts, professional massages, golf fees, puppy salon visits and junk-food snacks - unless, of course, you buy them in bulk in which case they become tax exempt again.

If the HST is "revenue neutral".....

....then what's the point of it?

The notion that it will "make BC businesses more competitive" is utter BS. What makes BC businesses more competitive is having products buyers want and/or need that others cannot supply. What we DO NOT need are constant rounds of bidding wars with our fellow citizens. All that leads to is the lowest common denominator -- such as what we are witnessing in the forest industry.

BTW:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba278

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=3f5abe053ce09b5abff23eca43cf02a0

I know that I'll

be participating in the underground economy as much as possible.

Bill, it is not "if"

"If the HST becomes a reality"

It is a 100% certainly, Bill. You will beat your own drum and try to feather your own nest as a paid "pundit" but at the end of the day, that is all you are doing. You could try to make even a pretext at being unbiased.

Rickie

"...then what's the point of it?"

The point is that only the end user pays the tax. This makes it far more equitable than putting tax on items that have already been taxed.

Bill is biased?

Wilf demands that everyone but himself be balanced.

No one is more unbalanced than you Wilf.

Very few people don't file taxes

@ Frank : The vast majority of the poor file taxes these days. This is because there are a variety of refundable tax credits (GST credit, carbon tax credit in BC) that are only available to those who file, and since 1993, the federal child benefits combined the family allowance, refundable credit, and non-refundable credit into one package that required tax filing.

If you're looking for actual numbers, the CRA website has the stats: there were 3,230,510 tax returns filed from BC residents in 2007. Fully 1/3 of all filed returns were non-taxable, which means that the individual did not owe taxes. In comparison, the 15+ population of BC in 2007 is estimated at 3,623,341 (according to BC Stats).

Those who don't file taxes are the most marginalized, like the homeless. Their plight is very real and it should be addressed by policy makers, but it hardly makes sense to base our tax system on the exceptions. It seems to me that a tax system should be designed based on what works for the vast majority of British Columbians and then take a look at who it's not working for and create special measures to serve them better.

Even if ON families are no worse off, HST may not be ideal

The CCPA paper asked one question: is the package of reforms introduced in Ontario (that included the HST) going to put money in the pockets of Ontario families or take money out of the pockets of Ontario families. This is an interesting question on its own, but it's obviously only one of the many questions that should be asked before we make up our minds on whether a tax is good or bad.

This, of course, is not the end all or be all of the HST. For example, what many critics find objectionable about the new HST is that it represents a substantial tax shift from businesses to consumers. That's what Erin Weir's remarks are focused on. Combined with the personal income tax cuts in Ontario, it also represents a shift from primarily taxing income to taxing consumption. Interestingly, the CCPA study has a section discussing the latter, but it's buried towards the end of the report and certainly did not make the press release.

Other issues with HST, particularly in BC, include the questionable manner in which it was introduced shortly after the election. And the way it is being sold to people as "the best thing" that the government could do for the economy.

As for Frank's comments that there were no "buts" in the article you read - to a large extent this is a huge problem with media these days. Journalists want to represents a story as black or white and seek to find antagonism and conflict whenever possible, because this type of stuff sells. However, the world is made up of shades of grey. There are very few things that come with no "buts" - gravity comes to mind - and those tend to be limited to the hard sciences. Everything that has to do with society, politics or government has nuances, every policy has winners and losers.

In essence, the CCPA study argues that in Ontario, you can't complain that the introduction of HST will cost families much more, when all the accompanying tax measures are considered (because it won't). However, just because it's not going to cost more does not make it the smartest tax policy ever or even the smartest in this particular moment in time.

I'm fully in agreement with Erin Weir that we're unlikely to see substantial increases in new investment or job creation as a result of the HST.

Iglika Ivanova...

OTOH, Jack Mintz, from the University of Calgary, came out with this conclusion in his just released HST study:

http://wcmprod2.ucalgary.ca/publicpolicy/files/publicpolicy/Mintz%20ONLINE%20%28Nov%2009%29.pdf

I guess the old adage "Economics is the only field in which two people can get a Nobel Prize for saying exactly the opposite thing" always rings true.

Iglika

"but it hardly makes sense to base our tax system on the exceptions"

I would agree if we were talking about income taxes alone, but we aren't. Canadians are increasingly being taxed outside the income tax system and therefore the marginalized should indeed be considered in the design of our taxation system.

After all, poor people that don't file a return are paying a high rate of taxation.

And I would add I think that government does this on purpose, its not an accidental by-product. One hears of how being able to tax people who are somehow avoiding taxes now is a benefit when they're trying to sell the notion of moving taxation from income to spending.

Making the marginalized jump through increasingly complex loops is one of the reasons why we have so many who live in despair. Our system, unlike some European ones, does not embrace people and give them a hand up, instead we've created a labyrinth of procedures and regulations that require an advocate to navigate them through.

When we lose people to poverty the nation as a whole suffers from their inability to contribute. Everyone wonders why some countries don't have the social problems we have, its because people are made to feel that they're valuable members of a community and made to feel welcome and are helped until they are able to contribute back.

We on the other hand take an every man for himself view of the world and therefore its no surprise our sense of community suffers and our society becomes poorer due to all of those the system has lost and who don't contribute.

"and then take a look at who it's not working for and create special measures to serve them better"

Which we're not doing. What social problems in this country have improved since circa 1985? The taxation system is not an island, its not good enough to claim that the taxation system works for most so everything is fine. Because if it was the top 5% instead of the bottom 5% that were feeling the negative effects god knows we'd all hear about it morning, noon and night from every media outlet.

Brad

"* 591,000 net new jobs"

Ludicrous.

I'll 100% guarantee that without a US recovery Ontario will not have an unemployment rate drop from 8.5% to 5.0%.

And if the US does recover there's no way the unemployment rate will be 3% less than it was in 2007 before the economic crises.

R/M old man....

Please to describe "end user". In the great wheel of life, there ain't no such a thing.

I might be tempted to agree with your statement -- provided the balance is to remove the corporation-as-entity discord.

Lukey Said...

According to Jack Mintz....

"Within 10 years, Ontario will benefit from:"

"591,000 net new jobs"

Fascinating analogy, do those jobs include the 300,000 Ontarians who lost jobs in the last 18 months?

591,000 - 300,000 = 291,000 new jobs in 10 years..

29,000 new jobs per year, and the population of Ontario is predicted to grow by nearly 1 million people over the next 10 years.

Staggering numbers,staggering bafflegab...

And on the news today,the Canadian senate has passed the HST..now it`s off for royal consent...

The EIC bill,the crime bill,40 other bills are still languishing in the senate, hmmm, no need to pass any of those bills with the HST coming,and considering the Senate is about to be poroqued,again,hmmm.

But everything said is true, also today on the news,Rogers won over a complaint filed against Bell,Bell was advertising their service was the fastest and most reliable,that has been proven to be false,they can longer advertise that....

And the funny part, Telus filed the same complaint against Rogers and won,honesty,ethics,morality,just like Christy Clark having to retract for lying about BC Ferries making $500 million in profit per year.

Me thinks one better be careful when walking near politicians or advertisers or radio personalities,if not one is likely to get their eye poked out by Looonnnggg Pointy noses.

Cheers

Salty Dog

You forcing Christy Clark to apologize for lying about BC ferries was outstanding. I take it she hasn't sent you a nice card for Christmas this year?

No Christmas Card....

No Card, no candy cane, no mistletoe....Gee Wiz..Rumour has it she had a tantrum and hair pulling episode over having to retract.

Maybe the "Stocking Stuffer" Polakite is planning on sending Christy will cheer her up.

LOL

Just for Rickie

http://www.gov.bc.ca/hst/flash/HSTAnimation.swf

Frank...

See, I told ya... the ghost of "Wrongway Feldman" from Gilligan's Island (aka salty dog, aka Brian Gough) is now again amongst us! :D

Damn, Carole James, Moe Sihota, and now Brian make a helluva political trio/team. BC political nirvana! ;)

R/M old man....

When I click on link, it reads:
"The page cannot be found"
Kinda 'splains yer philosophy of life, dun it?

I myself prefer "42".

Rickie, my son

Are you sure you paid your taxes? It is a government site and maybe they cut you off.

This will work but it's two steps, I hope that's okay.
http://www.gov.bc.ca/hst/
then click on the,
HST How it Works, box.

It was made for you.

Ah well

That's not the only ghost among us - some commenters here (now under a new sobriquet) have a reputation for something other than being a gadfly. The fact that the offended party in the events surrounding the crash and burn of luke skywalker has not returned to this place tends to create a problem for those of us who would like to see the rules here actually MEAN something.

Until Rod Smelser is invited back and an apology is delivered I'd suggest anyone who even reads something written by luke skywalker's new avatar is encouraging uncivil conduct.

Wake up and smell the coffee

Anyone that blindly accepts any projections of job gains, investment dollars or any such nonsense based on the HST should give their heads a shake. These prognastications are no more believable than some tout at the race track predicting the winner on any given race. If any of them were so astute, then they would have predicted that the US economy would collapse and bring the world's economy along with it many years ago.

Economists can theorize as much as they wish, but if you listen closely to their messages, all you will find is excuses as to why they were incorrect.

One may ask why is this so. The answer is quite simple. They do not apply logic into any of their equations.

The bottom line is don't let bafflegab get in the way of logic, and the old adage states "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear(read).

Aw Lukey

Your fascination in trying to scare,intimidate people by revealing names, or pastimes or adresses is very amatuerish...

CKNW,Gordon Campbell...BC Liberals are afraid of Salty dog,terrified of Grant G....Frightened by Brian G...

Salty Dog, BC MARY..Kootcoot..Powell river persuader...and many others have more skill,more talent,have brought more to the surface than Canwest and all the bought mouthpieces...As for you Luke..(Brad)...you have never revealed anything,uncovered anything,written anything original...You are nothing but a cut and paster.

As to the HST...I`m glad, the NDP may or may not remove the HST when they are government, the hst will be the death of the BC Liberal party for at least 8 years.

And unless Gordon Campbell resigns,he will be the first Premier removed by recall...There are over 200 volunteers committed already to canvass point gret to gather signatures, and Campbell is only getting 10% support in that riding....Getting the required votes.."It`s in the bag"

Cheers

new polls show folks hate deficits and HST

For all of the PAB-types who live and die by the polls:

Angus Reid just polled Gordon Campbell as having a 21% approval rating - just a few notches above Alberta's Stelmach at 14% and McGuinty at 18%.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/story.html?id=2349667

It seems that large deficits and HST don't work for McGuinty. For Frasier Institute following Stelmach it appears that all of the oil sand money in the world won't help if you let the corporations keep all of the profit. Albertans are finally waking up to the fact that Kline/Stelmach have been giving their province away while the oil companies turn the Athabasca and its banks into a carcinogenic quagmire.

From 21% Campbell Inc. can go nowhere but down:

*The Olympics are too expensive for BC citizens to attend and all we really get to do is pay for them with our taxes.
*The BC Rail Trial (though it will be closed for the Olympics) has been moving forward and promises to yield insight into the 1/2 price sale of BC Rail after Gordon promised not to sell.
* The HST will be no less disliked when it is implemented because fixed-income seniors and minimum wage earners will be even worse off than they were before while big business CEOs and the like will be collecting bonuses bigger than ever.
* The seniors are starting to catch on that Campbell's Big Business activities and selling off of our assets haven't been helping their cost for services, their RRSPs and their other investments.
* the abandonment of our provincial parks through the elimination of all but 24 conservation officers.
* mega deficit and
* destroying the ability for BC Hydro to operate on the people's behalf and huge future electricity costs due giving contracts to non-green private power.

I'll stop here because the list of actions that Campbell Inc. has taken showing disdain for the electorate is too big to quantify.

For All You Political Neophytes...

Angus Reid Strategies released an opinion poll for BC's "best premier" around two months ago. And Surrey mayor Diane Watts topped the poll by a WIDE margin.

Carole James was in the cellar in that same poll.

It's too bad that Carole Taylor was not named in the ARS poll as I suspect that she would have topped the list alongside Watts.

Neverthless, looks like the political powerhouse duo of Carole Taylor and Diane Watts are set to take over once Gordo walks off into the political sunset.

http://alexgtsakumis.com/2009/12/12/breaking-news-the-return-of-carole-taylor/

Damaged goods

The BC Liberals are damaged goods, Dianne Watts isn`t going anywhere....

Carole Taylor...With the rapid onset of wrinkles and age and the perpensity for BC men to not vote for females as provincial leaders well...

Considering Gordon Campbell has but a 10% approval rating in his own riding,considering thet Gordon Campbell is resigning before he can be recalled,considering the point grey bi-election will be won by the NDP...The Madman title is taking hold, recenge is a dish best served cold...

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2009/12/madman-chronicles.html

Cheers

Brad the neophyte

Well if Alex Tsakumis sez so then it must be true.

Again, name just one great policy idea BC gets from Dianne and Carole...

1..

2..

3..

They got nothing.

The latest Angus reid poll

BC NDP are polling at record highs, BCers warming to Carole James...

HST and Gordon Campbell`s and Colin Hansen`s budget deficit lies are crushing the Liberals..BCers aren`t forgetting the biggest betrayal in BC history..BC Liberal MLAs across the board have been tainted...Liberal MLAs are in hiding in their own ridings...

http://www.angusreidstrategies.com/uploads/pages/2009.11.21_BCPolitics.pdf

Diane Who?

You get out of the lower mainland and that is the response. How can a poll be accurate if most of BC doesn't even know who that is?

But sure get a quote from some Campbell shill and you can quote it to you hearts content if you are another Campbell liberal shill.

Let the People Speak...

We have Wrongway Feldman with his.. um, insight:

Yuppers, thanks for confirming that Carole James will never be BC's next premier! :D

In any event, when both men and women vote for Diane Watts as "best premier" topping the ARS poll, that speaks volumes.

Here's some commentary:

And that's from this left-wing poster, Gary E, here on the Tyee:

http://howbadtherecord.blogspot.com/

http://thebernermonologues.blogspot.com/2009/12/qualifications.html

I'm also on board.

Now why don't any of ya wanna talk about Carole "Sarah Palin" James? :D

The latest Angus reid poll...

Sorry about that link..

http://www.angusreidstrategies.com/uploads/pages/pdfs/2009.11.21_BCPolitics.pdf

A good read

The LATEST BC Poll...

And the NDP is also crashing and burning with Carole at the helm. Don't you guys "get it"? ;)

HA HA HA LOL LOL LOL

Tsakumas and Berner with their original thoughts.....

HA HA..They both copy Gary Mason`s article in the Globe and Mail....

And Luke...You are a bottom of the barrel scraper.....

Luke is now QUOTING ANONYMOUS POSTERS ON DAVID BERNERS BLOG....

What next Luke..Quoting tarot card readers...

HA HA LOL LOL....

LUKE QUOTING ANONYMOUS COMMENTERS..LOL LOL..

Desperattion runs wild in Campbell`s cabal

Cheers...You made my day LUKE(Brad)

R/M old man....

Oh....I'm supposed to believe the party that is pushing for the HeiST.

The way I sees it, if the HeiST is "revenue neutral" for BC, and if business is going to not be charged $1.9 billion in BC, then to maintain neutrality, that $1.9 billion has to come from somewhere. If, as my MLA insists, consumers will be saving money and not spending more, then the ONLY way neutrality can be maintained is for spending to increase to the point where the tax paid on purchases offsets that 1.9er. In rough numbers, it means BCers have to spend AN EXTRA $28-$30 billion a year. Now where do ya s'pose we are going to come up with the gelt to do that?

HA HA HA LOL LOL LOL

Greg Lyle...Gordon Campbell`s friend...HA hA LOL LOL

Innovative group...Dead last polster in the last provincial election...

No methadology-no details--

HA HA LOL LOL

Conservatives at 18%...LOL

Green party with Jane Sterk at 14%..LOL LOL

Who do we believe...the Mustel poll..Angus reid poll..Ipsos reid poll or....Greg Lyle and the innovative group...

HA HA LOL LOl

Brad

You're qutoing "Gary" from the Tyee comments section now? Why not just hang a "will play pundit for food" sign around your neck?

"Now why don't any of ya wanna talk about Carole "Sarah Palin" James?"

Because we're talking about the subject YOU brought up. You might want to get that ADD thing checked.

Brad

"Don't you guys get it?"

Ya, we see by the poll probably done by your buddy that the NDP leads a four horse race.

Depending on the riding breakdown that 3 way vote split on the Right would probably put James in the premier's seat with a majority.

Keep it coming Brad-Alex-Dave-Innovative.

Frank...

My first name begins with a "D" as in duh! :D

Bill Tieleman quoted the same poll. And that's with Gordo at the helm! Jeezuz.

Guess what will happen with Taylor or Watts at the helm!!!

Against James. Ouch.

Brad

You're purposefully ignoring my question, what great policy idea does Carole and Dianne bring to the table?

Because I haven't heard of one and I think you should try and find one before you start seating them in the premier's chair.

Frank the Bradmeister...

Both Taylor and Watts are moderate, positive, energetic, intelligent, have common sense, work with others of different political persuasions, etc, etc.

As Gary Mason, who is by no means a Lib supporter, succinctly put it:

Oh did I also tell you that they both oppose the HST and the carbon tax?

Hell, between Taylor/Watts and gawdawful James, where do you think the middle-of-the-road voter will cast their ballot?

Come on now - don't seriously tell me that's James. :D

R/M old man....(continued)

http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/brochures/SmallBusinessGuide.pdf

Check under "COMMON EXEMPTIONS". The line provided by "How it works" (as oer your link) smacks suspiciously of the total BS it is that PST is passed on at every level to the consumer, when plainly PST charges are exempt from goods intended for resale, etc. etc. etc.

Lemme see now. Some of the exemptions are:

- Goods purchased for resale;

- Goods purchased or leased solely for lease to other persons;

- Goods and materials purchased to be incorporated into goods for resale;

- Goods shipped or delivered out of the province by the seller;

Brad the pretend pundit

"Both Taylor and Watts are moderate..."

Those aren't ideas, its the summation on a job application. How about how are they going to fix the Liberal record on child poverty? Surely they must have an idea on that or is the status quo good for them?

"work with others of different political persuasions"

No they don't.

"As Gary Mason, who is by no means a Lib supporter"

Funny, because I've called him a Lib hack more times than I have fingers.

"Hell, between Taylor/Watts and gawdawful James, where do you think the middle-of-the-road voter will cast their ballot?"

I hate to tell you this yet again, but there isn't that many "middle of the road" voters. And anyone who really is "middle of the road" aren't going to find your new messiahs to their liking.

They have baggage, they don't realize most of the world takes a dim view of developers and bankers hiding behind a pleasant smile.

Taylor and Watts are Campbell redux.

Yeah right Luke.

Between Taylor/Watts (who supported or worked for Campbell and never made a peep to contradict him) and gawdawful James, where do you think the middle-of-the-road voter will cast their ballot? If you think it is watts or Taylor you really are gambling long odds.

HST

is a consumption tax, if you want to reduce your taxes then reduce your consumption, personally I avoid any business that has the C.F.I.B. sticker on the door, they helped gordo get elected and that is reason enough for me to avoid them and chamber members.

Frank the Bradmeister...

It's time to fess up.

The NDP core vote in BC is the federal 26% they received in 2008. Add another 16% and you get the 42% the NDP received in 2005 and 2008.

And as we have agreed, federal Liberals mostly vote NDP provincially to make up that vote. And most of these federal Liberals (including myself) are NOT left-wing. In fact, I'm a blue Liberal, as opposed to a red Liberal albeit I certainly do not vote NDP. :D

And we can also certainly agree that Gordo has always had HUGE negatives. Alot of that provincial NDP vote was "Anti-Campbell" as opposed to "Pro-NDP". Gordo is hated in BC. He's untrustworthy, unlikeable, etc. and that kills the Libs.

A little bit of history. Bill Bennett was also hated - anti-union, privatization, severe restraint program gutting social services. Expo '86 comes along and Bennett sings his swan song during the summer of '86.

Huge political dynamic takes place - a political sea change - with a leadership convention to take the premier's chair. Vander Zalm wins the prize. Yes, the same right-wing, so-con, anti-abortion Vander Zalm that told welfare recipients to "grab a shovel".

Polls showing the Socreds well behind the NDP with Bennett surge in favour of the Socreds - I recall one opinion poll showing Socred support surging to 58% in late 1986.

Will McMartin refers to it as the "speeding freight train" effect. The momentum is unstoppable. Vander Zalm goes on to win a landslide victory in October, 1986.

Fast forward to today. Eventually Gordo will take his proverbial "walk in the snow".

Both Taylor and Watts have very high positive ratings, notwithstanding that they are more socially progressive and have much higher trustworthy ratings than Gordo.

Not even the BC NDP have anyone of the calibre of Taylor or Watts within their ranks. I know that you won't admit that fact.

When the leadership convention evetually takes place, the "speeding freight train" political effect will again take place. Don't kid yourself. And the crown will probably go to Taylor with Watts taking a place in government.

With that momentum, James will again look like a "deer in the headlights". Even a recent ARS poll also showed a majority of NDP voters want James gone.

Throw in the fact that the NDP always has dismal polling numbers in terms of the economy and financial management and well... there ya go.

It's not rocket science stuff. :D

Brad

Watts does not have "high positive ratings", as pointed out above, what she has going for her is nobody knows much about her. That's not the same as being popular because of what you stand for. Something her fans will learn quickly enough.

As for Taylor, she wrote Campbell's budgets and then jumped out of the plane before her policies drove the province into the tank. You can bet the NDP will remind people of that fact.

As for your "freight train" effect, I thought you had given up on that after it failed to deliver Paul Martin's majority, Stephen Dion's and now Iggy's.

Much as its easy to grab a hold of a past event and think history is going to repeat in spite of it being decades in the past, the educated are not going to put money on a repeat of Vander Zalm's win in '86. There's just been too many other predictions that have never come to pass. The circumstances are different, the voters are different.

As for a majority of Dippers wanting James gone, so what? Your side, and you yourself, exhibit the same distressing weakness which is always thinking there's a new messiah around the next corner.

In the case of James, the problem could be her own decisions or that of her advisers, whoever it is that told her she needs to move to the Right has been giving her bad advice. She's losing her base and not gaining anything in return.

Finally, as for your Liberal voters, my point was there is no big "middle of the road" voting bloc. You are not middle of the road, its simply a human quirk that makes you think you're "normal" and everyone else is extreme.

Frank the Bradmeister...

Watts has received has received a helluva lot of media coverage both in the Sun and BCTV. Most recently it was the Tony Blair thingy. And chair/spokesperson for Translink, etc. etc.

Watts receives more provincial media attention that Gregor in Vancouver. In that ARS poll, 48% did not have an opinion, likely those that are not familiar with her.

Compare that to the 47% who had no opinion of Mike Farnworth or 49% who had no opinion of Adrian Dix. Again, the average voter is not familiar with these opposition guys. And they have negative ratings with those familiar with them.

And yes, while finance minister, in one opinion poll, Taylor was ranked highest in terms of provincial politician popularity. Go figure.

BTW, incumbent PM Martin DID have the "speeding freight train effect". The Libs federally were polling well in the 50% range after his replacement of Chretien. The Quebec sponsorship scandal deflated his chances.

And Lib-Con switchers federally are much more common as it's not that hard of a transition for that voting demographic.

Just wait until Gordo announces his retirement. The Liberals will surge in the opinion polls just on that fact alone. Bank on it! ;)

BTW, Will McMartin's "speeding freight train" effect not only happened with the "incumbent" Socreds and Vander Zalm in 1986, but also with the "incumbent" NDP and Glen Clark a decade later in 1996.

That's just the way it is in politics.

Bradly..

Carole taylor is a walking skeleton, plastic surgery,tucks etc etc etc...Hold up for a few years than yikes...Scary stuff...

Dianne watts isn`t going anywhere,the BC Liberals could run Barack Obama as leader and still lose...

You just don`t get it Luke, you really think anyone is going to forgive their local MLAs for staying quiet on the massive 4 billion dollar deficit lie and the HST lie and betrayal, Liberal MLAs ignoring their constituents,avoiding phone calls,emails,hiding out in their own towns,all NDP ridings won will strengthen, and every close riding will swing to the left, and...

Carole won`t be leader anyways,as you know,a leadership vote has been approved by the delegates,...

Tim Hudak will be the next premier of Ontario.

BCers will not,I repeat not ever vote for a Liberal government with Colin Hansen as leader...

Kevin Falcon,when pigs fly...George bobble head Abbot..GAG me...Rich Coleman..sorry Mr. Twitch...

It is quite apparent that in the last week that the Vancouver sun and CKNW and the PAB have come out of the woodwork,full spin mode.

And I can`t wait for BC public booing Gordon Campbell everytime his name is mentioned at olympic events.

Meanwhile Lukey(brad)...Go look for more Anonymous comments to quote.

Wrongway Feldman...

Your political acumen is out of this world. Really!

You have one helluva career waiting for you at the NDP provincial head office! :D

Brad

Forget the messiah thing, its not going to happen. The Liberal brand is not as strong as the Socred brand was in 1986. That's life.

Federally the Liberals keep thinking all they need is a new leader, a big convention and they'll be back in power and partying like its 1968. Well again, that's over, you've tried it 3 times and Canadians aren't buying it.

Provincially and federally you guys aren't grasping the fact that a lot of those voters not showing up on election day used to vote Liberal. They don't want you to give them balloons and speeches about promises you won't keep for the umpteenth time in a row. They want real change and you're offering same old same old. Again, you've damaged your brand.

Provincially the Libs will get an uptick when they replace Campbell, just as the Libs did when Iggy took over. But there has to actually be something there or in 3 months the honeymoon will be over. Watts and Taylor can't smile forever, they eventually have to speak and say what their "new" policies are. I don't like their chances once they do.

salty dog

"It is quite apparent that in the last week that the Vancouver sun and CKNW and the PAB have come out of the woodwork,full spin mode."

Never listening to CKNW I'm curious as to what you mean about the media coming out in full spin mode over the last week?

Frank the Bradmeister...

Keep it simple.

You have already admitted that BC is a "right-wing" province.

The next election is 3 1/2 years away.

Wait for opinion polls next spring. Even with Gordo at the helm it will likely be a dead heat then. The HST brouhaha is over. Frankly, I don't know anyone who ever talks about it except on this site.

The NDP only wins provincially when the right is split:

1. 1972 - WAC "I'm a long-toothed god" Bennett;

2. 1991 - Vander Zalm's scandal-ridden, so-con, anti-abortionist, imploding Socred protege "Rita Johnson" at the helm. NDP strategists stated back then, had the election lasted another week, you would have awoken to Premier Gordon Wilson with the Liberals momentum;

3. 1996 with 2 Reform MLA's and the party grabbing 20%+ in most central/northern interior seats;

And Carole James and the NDP - no vision, just being negative - folks get turned off by that stuff. At least the NDP can learn from Mike Harcourt who was seen as a "premier in waiting" pre-1991 and even then almost lost it.

Historically, once the NDP becomes government in BC they implode. Opinion polls showed them as much as 60% behind the Libs during the 1990's.

I know! That's why I have suggested that Wrongway Feldman take over the helm at BC NDP provincial headquarters. :D

Brad the mole

Admitted that BC is a right-wing province? I think you meant to say "stated", or "shouted from the rooftops".

"The next election is 3 1/2 years away."

So why'd YOU bring it up then?

"The HST brouhaha is over."

No it isn't, its not here yet. Wait until people start paying it Mr Mulroney before you declare no one cares about it.

"you would have awoken to Premier Gordon Wilson with the Liberals momentum;"

A guy that was an NDPer without the label.

"Historically, once the NDP becomes government in BC they implode."

I'd love to discuss this but knowing your attention span I'm not sure now is the time.

I look forward to your next post where you ignore everything I say and start 8 new topics. Always loved playing Whack-a-mole.

Frank

Bill Good..Christy Clark...No matter what the subject they slip in a jab at the NDP...Vancouver Sun....Their web edition..

They have been spinning..Housing booming..Jobs rebounding...Natural gas up...every article is designed to confuse people that their wealthy,jobs everywhere....

To give you an example frank...there was an article yesterday in the Van sun...The title..

"2009 third best year ever for natural gas royalties and auctions in BC"

I never read the story Frank, I was too busy laughing......

Why was I laughing...Because those of us with photographic memories....

Gordon(PROVEN LIAR and LAW BREAKER) Campbell and Colin(LOSER)Hansen made the claim over and over again in july...Natural gas money fell off a cliff,that`s why we have a $4billion dollar deficit, Kirk Lapointe(Editor in chief) is a baffoon...

those type of headlines are the norm for the sun, then I read the globe and mail or the Ottawa citizen and get the real story.

As for you luke...You come across like the liberals had a big win in may,any bit of good feeling towards the liberals vanished with the lies..Big lies.

I have a hard core liberal voter for a neighbor,he`s furious at the betrayal and vows to never vote liberal again.

As bad as the NDP campaign was they still nearly won.

Frank..Look, Campbell and his Zombie MLAs are going to ram through the HST in the spring and then Campbell is going to resign before he can be recalled.

The bi-election will be won by the NDP...And every liberal will be guilty of voting against the wishes of 92% of their constituents.....

And..the HST won`t help the economy,it will harm it badly, Carole Taylor won`t leave her 250.000,00$ a year gig with the TD bank..Dianne Watts won`t leave a sure gig in Surrey to run for the Liberals.

But lukey just doesn`t understand that.

Luke, as for Gregor Robertson, he couldn`t run for the ndp or Liberals, his name is dirt,he`s been a brutal failure as mayor.

Luke

More like, The Quebec sponsorship scandal derailed his chances.....that's the problem with "speeding freight trains". It doesn't take much to derail them.

The electorate

in this province should do a little research into who they are voting for and start questioning the msm and their agenda. Bill Bennet was all about Bill.

There was two wild kelowna boys and bennet was their name, they bought some land and sold some land and made a capital gain.

Wrongway Feldman...

Where do ya come up with this "Wrongway Feldman" stuff? BTW, it's apparent that Watts will be running in the Surrey-White Rock constituency when Hogg leaves.

http://www.civicsurrey.com/2009/08/13/mla-hogg-to-run-for-wr-mayor/

You not only have a helluva future at BC NDP provincial office but ya also have a helluva future doin' gigs at Yuk Yuk's Comedy Club. I'd certainly pay to watch your comedy routine! :D

Now back to regular programming. Carole "Sarah Palin" James comes across as a whiny school marm whose voice sounds like fingernails scratching across a chalk board. The object of much ridicule in the general populace. Certainly not premier material.

So who would replace her if that turned out to be the case? No A-line candidates on the NDP front bench - just B-liners.

1. Mike Farnworth - Has cried too many times on the TV News, looks like a bonehead and comes across as taking too much valium;

2. Adrian Dix - Ah yes, making a fake memo to fool the press. That's not good. Has a demenour and personality akin to that of an undertaker at a funeral home.

Slim pickin's to none I say.

And Wrongway Feldman, you do have a certain "deep thought" look about ya :D

Well Lukey.....

The next leader of the NDP will be John Horgam...Shhh..Don`t let anyone eles know eh!

Great article today by Scott Simpson...Suzuki..Pembina..and all the other environmental groups have laid out a great report..

They are calling for a full stop on IPPs..Full stop on power contracts..A full stop on destructive projects..They are calling on BC hydro to develop it`s own power(Public power) Hmmm...

Isn`t this interesting, the enviro groups appointed to Campbell`s resource development committee are calling Campbell`s energy plan..."A COMPLETE DISASTER"

And...Those groups are going to be opponets(intervenors) with the BCUC..Oppents against Campbell.

As for my picture,well, find someone the size of Steven Segall but better looking.

Cheers

Aw Lukey

Yesterday you were quoting anonymous posters as political pundits...

And today your spreading a false rumour started by Don Pitcairn(a failed politicin) A wannabe Green party member...

And I hope Hogg does run for mayor of Whiterock(cause he will lose)....

And Lukey, Dianne Watts doesn`t want to be leader of the Liberals with the 12 $ billion in deficits over the next three years(counting the 2009 $4billion dollar deficit)

Sorry Luke,changing leaders doesn`t save the lackeys in the liberal party,liberal MLAs are in hiding,and you know....Several have hit the bottle really hard..especially Shirley Bond..glug glug glug.

Cheers

ursus

That would be refreshing -- to have an actual THINKING voting population. It would certainly scare the bajeezuz out of the spin doctors.

Numbers

Having an actual thinking voting population is not the problem; even the people who think do not have numbers they can work with. Speculating on percents of speculation, and dollars of speculation gets people nowhere but mired in a sea of ideological name calling.

A student of mine in a News Media course I teach asked if the introduction of the HST meant the minimum wage was going up. I had not noticed the possibility of that interpretation and it raised a legitimate question: Is the introduction of the HST not structurally a lowering of the minimum wage?

Another question: which is better, tax and spend or tax and not spend?

Governments need taxes to operate, how they collect them is one thing, but how they spend them is another.

One example:

In 2006, after in some cases years of collective bargaining, the BC government hired Carole Taylor to offer up a $3 billion solution to Olympic labour unrest. It was a a Band-aid and the accompanying approximately 2%/yr increases little after six years of zeroes. But it was a gain, slight as it was, that was meant to counter balance the 23% increases Doctors, and MPs had received, I suppose.

April 1st, however, non-union workers, without the cost or effort of any collective bargaining were given $3 billion, to accompany the cost of living allowances and wage gains they had already been given.

Years later we go from "no deficit" one month to a $2.8 billion shortfall.

Where did it go? There are two possible answers arising from this example, but which answer affects the lives of the greatest number of people?

If the increased revenue from an increased tax was going to be spent on the things that have a concrete measurable effect on the greatest number of people and not on amorphous and non-palpable effects on an abstract inpretive view of an "economy."

MPs

sorry, I meant "...the 23% increases physicians, judges and MLAs had received."

@Madhack

Not to be picky but....The deficit is not 2.8 $billion...The deficit is $4 billion...Gordon(The LIAR) Campbell has applied $900 million of the HST bribe towards the deficit.....

No,I`m not looking for an argument,just want the record set straight...

Gordon Campbell said over and over again pre-election that the deficit is going to be $495 million Maximum...Then after the election he told the truth he said the deficit is actually $2.8 billion...Even in confessing to his lie he lies(does that make sense?)....The deficit is $4billion dollars...An 800% increase in what Campbell and Hansen said pre-election....

But what`s $4 billion between liars!