media image is all

Unfortunately Rafe, in today's politics, policy is irrelevant. Left/right is meaningless to Dumb and Dumber out in front of the TeeVee losing attention before the 30 second sound clip is done. It's media image that wins the day. Carole James has the media image of a wet dishrag - BC's Stefan Dion only stupider with no education.

Jim Sinclair vs Carole James - for Jim it's a battle of wits with the unarmed.

Bill Good/Phil Hochstein quake in fear of confronting Jim because they know they'd get their asses handed to them whereas Carole mutters irrelevant dogma as the two beat on her like she was a whipped dog. It's as though she's not even part of the conversation with her nervous voice already irritating to the listener becoming more annoying minute by minute.

She needs to go now before referendum and recall campaign's get started. Progressive voters disgusted with her just stay home or vote Green.

Not interested in any party politics...

Waiting for the coming implosion before I expect any real change.

THe sheep need to be shaken before things will change!

Pavlovian View...

Agree with anartcho. But freebear puts it on it flip side. Which is what it is going to take to get anarcho's and dorothy's, and my preferred proportional rep option, I fear.

There's more pain coming before this period really begins to move toward a more progressive/radical democratic solution. Too bad, too sad, but sometimes poop just needs to happen. (Get off my case KWD. :-)

Meanwhile, I think I'll just go take my horses for a winter wonderland walk-, just to give them a change of scenery.

Looks Like Moe Sihota Is Already Having an Impact...!

First came Carole, here comes Moe, and now comes the latest BC opinion poll!

No wonder voters are apathetic these days.

Rick

I couldn't agree more. One thing any BC voter would get behind - most right now, anyway - is comprehensive recall legislation. The NDP did half the job in the 90's, but it's a weak law. Make it accessible and strong, with provisions for fast MLA recall, and that's something BC can get behind: "You're fired!"

Reasons for lack of support?

Adam, I think one major reason for the failure of proportionality is that the powers that be do not want it. Right now a right-wing govt can bully through any legislation it wants, even though it only represents a minority of the population. This is naturally good for the rulers and would no longer be the case with a proportional system. I think that many NDPers are also happy with FPTP as well, for with PR the party would be in a situation of permanent minority and have to make deals with other left wing parties. I don't think some of them are ready to be that flexible.

Rafe, you only hint at the problem

"...there is a solution which is now probably out of reach. That would be some sort of proportional representation that takes power away from the "party" and gives it to MLAs ..."

I will ask again: Can you do a column on true political reform.

Proportional Representation will still leave us, the public, without representation since there is no free vote in the Legislature, and money politics control the Party line.

I believe wee need:

1) a free vote in the Legislature on all issues,

2) effective recall legislation to ensure representatives are being accountable, and

3) a strictly enforced monetary limit of donations to political parties (no company or person can donate more than $5,000, for example).

Government's are about people, not representing legal entities created so the wealthy can shield themselves from immoral, illegal, unethical and seemingly unaccountable acts.

The NDP will not win in BC

The NDP will not win in BC until they have a leadership change and a third party starts up that siphons votes from the libs.

It is sad but true.

Dan

The third criteria is that we need an honest media. To combine all three and they might have a chance

anarcho

This province isn't as democratically involved as you think, and we need far greater grassroots participation in politics before we dare to suggest a refinement of the voting system. People don't care enough about voting in the first place, let alone voting for elections reform.

Your view is a classic case of thinking a law will beget social change, as opposed to the opposite, which is the truth. It's the same mistake that brought us failures like the drug war, albeit from a different political perspective.

NDP will it miss the wakeup call

I often wonder if anybody from the NDP ever reads the news about the party.

Rafe and peoples comments you are right on about the NDP party.

If they, NDP could only get a platform of policies for the province if they were in charge, then the people would vote for them. In fact more people would probably vote also.

The liberals got in by default as only 35% of the people voted. 5% of the votes were spoiled ballots.
So what do we have, a liberal dictator gov that knows the people of BC won't do squat.

What the NDP party needs to do is clean out the dead wood. Similar to the NDP executive resigning last year.

Hopefully Moe Sihota, new NDP president will give guidance and bring on some true movers and shakers who want to run a bc provincial gov.

Until the NDP party has a good look in the mirror, the same old rhetoric will continue.

Hopefully Carole James will read this and act real soon if the party intends to be presently around in election 2013.

The balls in your court Carole and team.

Willie my man........

So this means you are in favour of "Der Führer" method of running a party and government......

Bill Tieleman

How about instituting a secret ballot? If MLAs could avoid the wrath of the party leaders, I wonder how they would REALLY vote...........

I agree with you

Adam, I agree about the lack of participation. Nor do I think simply changing a law in isolation will make a great deal of difference. The greater level of democracy in most of Western Europe did not come about just through passing an electoral reform law - the changes came about from a mass movement at the base.Nonetheless there is a base of support for greater democratization, albeit limited to greens and left NDP, and we do need to start talking about it.

The point that I am making is that the division within the NDP has structural causes...

NDP Doesn't Hide Their Division?

Pretty tough to hide an elephant in a phone booth, Rafe. The NDP have to raise their collective IQ level, cease and desist their individual agendas/missions in life and begin building an intelligent alternative to "Gordo's Gang". An alternative with proposed policies and FEASIBLE solutions. An ACTION plan to end the in-house corruption of the present regime. A specific, well thought-out FEASIBLE plan to put a stop to the Gordo Giveaways of crown assets.
But FIRST, maybe wake up, look around and find out what's been happening to BC while you've been asleep.

The Insanities of the NDP

The Liberals have little to worry about with a provincial NDP that self-immolates itself in front of the electorate with unwavering reliability. And the NDP faithful wonders why they can only win an election if the Liberals self-destruct? Or that their only hope is that the economy and capitalism become so oppressive that voters flock to the NDP like a Marxist's wet dream.

Other NDP parties in Canada may be fit to govern, but not the BC NDP. Wacko, unrealistic policies and an inability to purge itself of destructive unions and subversives who only want to fuel class warfare literally scare the hell out of ordinary, working class Canadians. Jim Sinclair and his ilk are poisoning the NDP's platform and message. Time for the NDP to reboot its software.

BC desperately needs an alternative to the Liberals, but the NDP simply can't cleanse itself of the idealists. Ordinary working Canadians don't want idealism- they want responsible govt who are issues oriented, not ideologically driven.

Ultimately, the NDP behaves more like a political movement than a political party who is trying to demonstrate that it is fit to govern. The zealotry, the damn the common sense and facts kind of stubbornness is breathtaking to observe. And each time the NDP loses the hardcore brethren come up with new reasons. And most of all they demand to tilt further left and call for a new, more radical fire and brimstone leader. Thus, the cycle and spiral of slow, cannibalistic decline continues.

Now NDP pundits point out their current, big lead in the polls over the Liberals and how HST will sink the Liberals. Don't they realize the election is years away voters will forget about HST by then and the polls will change. There's only one poll that matters and that's on election day. And that's where the NDP falters each time. Just look at your dismal organization and performance in the last election.

On the other hand, I think the NDP followers prefer to be a political movement or a coffee house party where they whine about how stupid the masses are and how the world can't see there righteousness. If you really want to help the ordinary working person, you'd start behaving like a responsible political party. Instead, all we see here is self-indulgence.

Proportional representation

Being much more left-wing and more into apathetic and disgruntled workers realizing their class interests, I'd like to make a comment regarding Tielman's PR comment and Dorothy's fondness for Danish PR.

There's so much talk about "party discipline" when in fact there is little. Caucus discipline should never be confused with proper party discipline. There is no mechanism at the moment which allows proper party organs (i.e., not the caucus) to yank insubordinate legislators or head honchos like Gordon Campbell.

That kind of PR model would indeed give real power to party organizations, but would also be a huge step towards the problem of voter apathy and disgruntlement.

Various labour measures would have to be enacted in order to give ordinary working folks actual time and other motivation to participate in the workplace and in the process, of course.

The biggest problem for BC progressives...

IS the NDP. The party is fractured, is stuck in 1930's class struggle language, but also is anti environmental and anti democratic, and just not smart enough to see that it will continue to loose election after election to the united conservative forces, in a Province where a majority of the voters are actually progressives. Without Union financing it would have ceased to exist a long time ago, and we might now have a truly democratic, green, progressive party which would win elections.

PS: BC voters passed STV by 59%. It was thanks to Gordo's genius (to fund two of the NDP's best and brightest to fight STV) that it went down in the unfair and unnecessary second vote.

Neo Liberal totalitarianism

Bobby Peru is a perfect example of the totalitarian nature of neo-liberalism. His goal is to erase ideological differences so the situation becomes a tweedle-dum-tweedle dee choice, in other words one party with two wings. The strength of Canadian and European democracy is that - up till now - it has allowed a certain of level of pluralism ie genuine political choice. Bobby Peru would like to eliminate these differences. The goal is also to kill any possible hope for a better world.

The irrelevance of politics sans The Peoples' Movement...

Writes Dan the Socialist, "The NDP will not win in BC
The NDP will not win in BC until they have a leadership change and a third party starts up that syphons votes from the libs.

It is sad but true."

All of the above would be useful for the NDP, for sure. But even more important to the process of moving society "left", into a more radical "democratizing" direction, that could include creating a favourable environment for true PR, would be the emergence of a third party to the left of the NDP, with which it is forced to compete, and perhaps, out there in time and development somewhere, form a true United Front with. The NDP is currently too comfortable in its Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition role. It is satisfied with having some career positions for some of its leading lights.

But even for that, even more critical to the future direction of a radicalized democratic political development is nothing to do with the party process itself. Indeed, without which what passes for democracy within this country and its capitalist system is simply more tail chasing and vacuous verbosity.

And this development is nothing less than the emergence of mass movements of the people demanding fundamental change within society and its underpinning economy. Without which we but get the further playing out of the pointlessness of political parties and what currently passes for democracy. Politics is secondary, and always has been, to what the mass of people "do" and/or "don't do." Which the NDP has never really understood, even discouraged.

And when it finally happens, and an angry and fed up citizenry does finally start to move, it will begin to change everything and everyone will suddenly be amazed that they never understood it before. Until then, this is the best it gets, and the bullshit flows on seeming endlessly.

Like politics is always subservient to economics, it's irrelevant, especially on the left, without the masses in motion, acting in their own interests, shaping, creating and destroying "parties" in the process.

And that's the way it is....

"Realdemocrat" and "anarcho" characterize the great political divide that the NDP must cross before it can be accepted as a political party that is fit to govern.

Realdemocrat understands that there is genuine opportunity for a truly progressive political alternative to the BC Liberals. Moreover, the NDP is ironically undemocratic despite what it claims. It's mired in sloganeering and its members are happy to bat around subversive ideas rather than win elections. They are like those awful bike protesters who use their cause to disrupt our lives with illegal mass rides. There's no real policy advocation, just troublemaking subversives who want to give ordinary people the finger.

Anarcho can't even understand why the NDP keeps losing elections. No, the BC NDP isn't like European socialist parties. The latter can win elections because their electorates trust their pragmatic policies, which are inclusive of business and wealth creation. Anarcho fails to realize that as a political party you can't make a better world unless you get elected.

Oh, Anarcho- slinging terms like 'Neo liberal totalitarianism' turns off most ordinary voters. Less rhetoric, more sensible policies.

If Vision was ruthless and ambitious, they'd outflank the NDP and emerge as a progressive, electable alternative to the NDP. By excluding BC's rabid, class war mongering unions, nominating a slate of progressive professionals and immunizing itself from the left wing 'workers of the world unite' rhetoric, it would have a real shot at replacing the well worn Liberals.

But alas, that's too much to hope for because it's the smart thing to do.

Here we go again!

Here on this site you can expect the same people to raise STV and blame two people with the failure of the referendum. Also repeatedly comment that these two have no credibility to comment on ANYTHING because of it. The latest such silliness is the comment: "It was thanks to Gordo's genius (to fund two of the NDP's best and brightest to fight STV) that it went down in the unfair and unnecessary second vote."

Give it a rest people. If there had been a connection between Gordo and Bill and David don't you think the pro forces would have exposed it by now? No, it is easier to brand the left with you failure to sell the concept to the public that caused its defeat. The first time it was on everyone's radar screen because of the lopsided legislature after 2001. And, whose fault was that? A misinformed electorate courtesy of Canwest. Why did they allow themselves to be duped? It is because they refuse to think..

So now we have Rafe doing a good piece on the differences between the Liberals inner workings and that of the NDP and it comes down to STV? RUBBISH! Who said "If you kill dissent, you kill the revolution". Certainly the puppets in the liberal/socred party will never change. Bobby Peru or Luke or realdemocrat telling the NDP what it needs to do to be successful is so much self-serving rhetoric straight out of the Liberal Handbook. My goodness the BC NDP today doesn't even remember the 1930's class struggle. Maybe a few in the ranks still do but they are a very small minority.

The problem is that people don't know what the NDP stands for and positions like trying to suck up to the corporate sector just confuses the issue. So they are for women's equality, but who has that issue front and center when they vote. A minority of women might while it turns off just as many other voters and not all of them are men.

The last two elections were a disaster for Carole. People could not tell you three issues in her platform. I have yet to get a householder from my MLA in almost 6 years. People never see him around town. How are they suppose to identify with an invisible person.

I say if Moe can get them "working their hind ends off" that will be a good thing. The cartoon above is not fitting for the Tyee and I thought they were above that sort of thing.

Bobby Peru

"The Liberals have little to worry about"

Obviously written by a man who hasn't seen any polls.

Nice to read your same old same old anti-union rant for the umpteenth time but the fact is your party is tied far more to business than the NDP is to unions. But I realize the day you look in the mirror hasn't dawned yet.

"Moreover, the NDP is ironically undemocratic despite what it claims."

Again, as Rafe points out, you need to put down the ideological blinkers and take a look at the party you vote for. The party that is funded by business and doesn't allow the airing of views that dissent from your current messiah.

realdemocrat

The NDP would be dead if it hadn't been propped up with union money? Give your head a shake and then look at the 2007-1008 financial report.

Individuals donated $2.29 million to the party while unions donated $0.6 million.

Meanwhile business donated $5.1 million to the Liberals.

We already have a progressive party in BC, its called the NDP. Non-progressives are free to vote Liberal or Green.

Class war?

If a government keeps socking it to the average income earner in order to give business a break is that a class war? Well that is HST. It is the same class war that took place back in 2002 when every damn fee went up so the liberals could give big tax cuts to their friends in high places. Was that a class war? The forestry sector has been decimated and mill workers are out of jobs all because the government removed the requirements to use the wood locally. Raw log exports are on the increase. Our assets are being sold off (ROR.) Pretty soon there will bve no good paying jobs and we will all be working at WalMart. Is that a class war? Oh good heavens that's just a "free market economy" not a class war? How silly can this obsession with avoiding the reality get.

Let's do the smart thing and stop letting the right-wing media determine policy. Lets stop letting the Baldreys and Palmers tell us what is good and what isn't. I would rather have an opposition that fights the governments actions of their liberal class war tooth and nail rather than worry about being nice and moderate and acceptable to the business sector and therefore utterly useless.

But we are not in a class war! Or are we?

"Individuals donated $2.29 million to the party while unions donated $0.6 million. Meanwhile business donated $5.1 million to the Liberals."

Thanks Frank. I wonder why they would do that if we are not in a class war?

Hmmmmm...

Around 85% of British Columbians identify themselves as "middle-class". The rest of you can get your pee shooters and engage in your "class war". Us 85 percenters will just sit back, grab a bag of popcorn, and watch the entertainment. :D

And most union voters vote centre/ centre-right both provincialy and federally as they understand where their economic interests lie.

As former New Democrat candidate/ strategist Ron Johnson states:

http://www2.canada.com/northshorenews/news/viewpoint/story.html?id=0c58a800-9c9f-4cde-9fa9-044ab267e331&p=2

OTOH, it would be fun to watch the NDP veer left and then implode under the dual leadership of Carole "Sarah Palin" James and Moe "Moment" Sihota.

Too many fractured/ diametrically opposed interests in the BC version of the NDP. That's why it always tends to rip itself apart while both in opposition and in government.

Luke

That old line of yours is getting pretty old and stale just as old as "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" which incidentally is based on Stats Canada Reports not a Ron Johnson quote.

The NDP will only implode as irrelevant if it sits on the fence as you always advocate for obvious reasons. Stay with your party which always has one common interest. Greed.

Sexy beyond belief...

Hmmmm. I never judge anyone by what they think of themselves. They could be drawing welfare and think they are part of the ruling class, especially some wingnut symp. I'll determine the class position of the various social strata of folks by more "objective" criteria than wingnut logic.

For goddamn sure.

I think I'm good lookin' and sexy beyond belief too. And all women are just dyin' to jump my bones. You buy that opinion of myself?

Send this guy back to political primary school. He needs more education.

Luke

A real democracy, where you argue with people in your own party over policy, isn't your thing, fair enough.

Some of us prefer discussion over taking orders. You prefer a strong leader that tells you what to think.

As for "imploding", your leaders have been telling you to say that for the last 60 years. Looks like we're still here.

What Is Happening In Europe?

Bobby Peru, obviously you are not following what has been happening with those neoliberal social democrats in Europe have you? The German SD - lowest vote since 1920, French SP - in the toilet, Portugese SP = lost heavily, Labour - gonna lose the next election. The left parties that are growing are those like Der Linke - to the left of the neoliberal Soc Dems.

Furthermore, I am not sloganeering when I claim neoliberalism has a totalitarian bent. Democracy needs a broad range of opinions to stay healthy. Trying to reduce the political spectrum to two variants of neoliberalism creates a one party with two wings state. The famous Thatcherite slogan TINA - There Is No Alternative is frighteningly anti-democratic and anti-pluralist.

My friend anarcho wrotes,

My friend anarcho wrotes, "Furthermore, I am not sloganeering when I claim neoliberalism has a totalitarian bent. Democracy needs a broad range of opinions to stay healthy. Trying to reduce the political spectrum to two variants of neoliberalism creates a one party with two wings state. The famous Thatcherite slogan TINA - There Is No Alternative is frighteningly anti-democratic and anti-pluralist."

Ehhhh, brother! Bang, friggin' on!

DEMOCRACY NEEDS A BROAD RANGE OF OPINION TO STAY HEALTHY!

Bring it on, you MFs. We couldn't do it without you. You keep doing what you're doing. Please.

Die Linke Is Now Crashing and Burning...

So what's new? :D

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=ahJS4..noyn8

Nutty!

Looks like the German middle class is now grabbing a fresh bag of popcorn and watching this political entertainment play out.

Die Linke, Die Republikaner, Die NPD... all extremist oddballs/nutbars und die haben eine Schraube locker! (trans.: they have a screw loose). ;)

http://die-linke.de/politik/international/english_pages/

"Dear Visitor, Dear Comrade, Dear Friend,
welcome to the English section of the homepage of the party DIE LINKE (The Left) Germany. You can find some information on our party and about our policy here.
We have selected some articles, press-releases and brief information of board-meetings to give a general conspectus about DIE LINKE. The sector will be periodically updated. Moreover, you can find brief information on our party in some other languages in the down-load section. If you wish any further information, please contact us:
"

Check it out yourselves, Visitors, Comrades and Friends. :-)

Always liked the salutation of "comrade" myself, since my own days in the Communist Party of Canada; for one, its gender neutrality. And a comrade, man or woman, as opposed to just a "friend", is there with you through thick and thin, as a "comrade-in-arms".

Bring it on, like I say MFs. We would be irrelevant without you fascist dipshits.

Comrade Frank... Comrade Skywalker...

Comrade Coyoteman forgot to mention one of the most progressive Die Linke policies of all! And his party membership will be reviewed as a result.

Die Linke parliamentarian Christel Wegner was bang on with her public policy pronouncements:

1. The anti-fascist Berlin Wall barrier MUST be brought back;

2. The Stasi is a legitimate organ of the state to protect the state from reactionary fascist elements;

3. Margot Honecker, wife/partner of the great leader of the GDR, should be supported both idealistically and materially;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christel_Wegner

Comrade Coyoteman ....Down with the fascist pigs! ;)

Luke

Your copy and paste debating style is becoming a joke. There is a communist under your bed. You should go flush him out.

Comrade Skywalker...

I just did. Welcome to comrade Coyoteman. :D

Irrelevant!

That Die Linke is faced with a scandal is irrelevant. The fact that it was polling at 20% plus before this shows that there is support for an openly socialist party in Germany. If Die Linke fails because of the scandal, another cleaner organization can, in time, replace it.

And to be fair, the Christian Democratic Party of the 1960's and 70's was riddled with former Nazis, yet this was not deemed scandalous. Nazis are OK, only Stalinists are a problem it seems...

Failed Smear Attempt

Christel Wegener was EXPELLED from Die Linke for her Stalinism. Your attempt to smear them backfired.

Comrade Anarcho...

Dude, I have a (non-sauer :) ) kraut background and am also a student of German history/politics. ;)

Even before this scandal broke out, Die Linke was polling at 11% nationally. Hell, the BC Greens and the Canadian Greens poll higher than that right now! LOL

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/forsa.htm

Many, if not most, of those former Nazis were engaged with the Socialist Reich Party in the 1950's (before it was banned) and then later with the National Democratic Party of Germany during the 1960's where they achieved considerable electoral success.

Those same right-wing extremist nutbars are now aligned with Die Republikaner, Die NPD, and the DVU.

Hell, let's have lottsa extremist Die Linke parliamentary members as well as extremist Republikaner, NPD, and DVU members.

That would be more progressive, n'est pas? NOT! 'Cause most Germans (just like Canadians) are middle-class and middle-of-the road politically.

One does not need to pass kindergarten to come to that conclusion. :D

NDP

I will take anything over an autocracy. Power with, not power over. PR is inherent to having our voices heard, however, PR scares the hell out of the autocracy. I think a government like the NDP should start telling the truth to people (and to themselves) about all the issues that we talk about on the Tyee and on the internet (and much more that we don't talk about as well).

I think they should grab strong issues that exist, like the political and corporate Zeitgeist, and pair it to decentralizing power to MLAs. EXPLAIN it to the masses. Perhaps start strategizing how to clean- up the global warming message post Copenhagan. We need real action on dealing with the tar sands, and we need huge lanscape level conservation measures in BC or our forest is going to be sold to China. What hype, thanks Harper and Gordo.

Luke

There must be Nazi's there as well. They sure aren't relevant to this discussion so they must be lurking there somewhere.

Brad

Looks like the BC and Federal Liberals are barely ahead of Die Linke.

The fact is, the majority of BCers and Canadians like social programs and like the concept of "community".

The only thing the Liberals have going for them is voter apathy. Which should be their campaign slogan.

Skywalker

Lots of Germans left the fatherland and found their way to the New World. Many were in a hurry :)

Political Parties

Let's face facts. Political parties are no more democratic than the Hells Angels, UN Gang or any other self-interest group(gang).

A true democracy would mean that an elected representative of any given riding would be free to champion the wishes of their constituents rather those of their leader.

It seems that after every election the biggest question is why do less and less voters show up at the polls. From my perspective the answer is very simple. They are turned off by the fact that no matter who gets elected in their riding, they will be represented by a person who is answerable to the party they represent rather than to the voters that elected them.

It is time that we are treated as stakeholders in this province instead of nothing more than a means to someone else's ends.

Crankypants...

"It seems that after every election the biggest question is why do less and less voters show up at the polls. From my perspective the answer is very simple. They are turned off by the fact that no matter who gets elected in their riding, they will be represented by a person who is answerable to the party they represent rather than to the voters that elected them.

It is time that we are treated as stakeholders in this province instead of nothing more than a means to someone else's end"

We obviously have a similar experience with parties, crankypants.

Parties, while they serve "an interest" in a society fragmented into social classes, in my view as well, in the final analysis are an obstacle to democracy, not its vehicle.

Though, given how deeply rooted the idea and role of parties are in the culture and what passes for democracy structure of capitalism, I am less certain how they are going to be uprooted and dispensed with. Probably over a period of time... though I suspect the "clashing" class interests element within "the system" is part of the process-, which may take some time.

Still, you are entirely right, in my view, the essentially anti-democratic character of all parties known to me, is a problem. But an essential prerequisite to their passing, it as well seems to be, an aware public, in motion in defense of its interests, committed to economic and political egalitarianism, and hostile to all manner of class privilege.

Without this element, the way is only open to what is.

Now, I must off to "the city".

Coyote

crankypants

No no no, don't you know that as Luke has said, 85% of the population are Liberals even though only 25% actually voted for the party? Even all the Cons and Greens are Liberals as are a third of the 23% that mistakenly voted NDP.

All non-voters are of course Liberals too.

You have to admire his loyalty to his party if nothing else but then I think that's Rafe's point. Luke has probably been told to say that and like a good Liberal trooper, he does.

NDP Tower of Babble

From the threads above, anyone can see the NDP is a political mess that is unsuited to govern. Multiple, fractured, opposing views and brawls may be romantic notions for the coffee house or union hall, but utterly scare and confuse voters. Veering off into European socialist politics is not only ridiculous, but irrlevant. Most ordinary BC voters don't care or don't know about how Europe operates because they live in BC. They want BC solutions to their practical problems, not a graduate thesis on German socialism.

While the leader wants to work with business, Jim Sinclair excoriates them. So what can we expect if the NDP finally win the next election? Rafe calls it democracy, but it's sheer lunacy if your goal is to create a sensible message to voters.

Do you ever hear of any major businessmen taking the stage at a Liberal platform and denouncing unions and attacking the poor? All of these cruel characterizations of business by the left is simply scare mongering and mistruths. The simple fact is that businesses aren't represented in the same way big BC unions are organized. They don't carry the same amount of clout that the unions use to corrode the NDP.

The Liberals innately understand that all you have to do is win the election- whether by one riding or one vote, winning is winning. The NDP acts like a political movement and wants to achieve a socialist victory of ideology, a nirvana of enlightment. It's so utterly foolish.

I couldn't have said it better.

"The Liberals innately understand that all you have to do is win the election- whether by one riding or one vote, winning is winning." Whether by lying, back room deals, helping their friends, screwing the vulnerable winning is winning. Well done Bobby. I think you have finally got it.

Bobby Peru

"All of these cruel characterizations of business by the left is simply scare mongering and mistruths."

That's pretty funny. It would be believable if your side had never been in government but you're forgetting that it has been most of the time. The Liberal/Socred record is what it is. People attack the record of your government, there's no "mistruth" about it.

"The Liberals innately understand that all you have to do is win the election- whether by one riding or one vote, winning is winning."

What's the point of winning if you don't have ideas? All your party knows is what its against, you don't stand for anything. The reason business runs your party is you don't have people that care about it.

"The NDP acts like a political movement.. a nirvana of enlightment. It's so utterly foolish."

Which is exactly what its supposed to be. Its a political vehicle for ideas. Unlike yours.

Raising issues at a liberal convention?.

It would never happen Bobby, when they just phone up Gordo for a private chat knowing that he will probably agree. His government is open to all his friends. Whether it is open and honest is a whole other issue.