Well coyoteman Watching them squirm or

watching the media SPIN.

I'd bet that this is going to get spun beyond recognition of the original event.

PVR the news as it was presented today and compare it to one week from now.

Well-Regulated militias; infringed

If only those law-abiding soldiers on a military base in Texas had the right to bear arms for self-protection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHXUcK7Y14k

Perhaps Harper's taking lessons in strategic voting from Karzai:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/091105/n1105117A.html

Clinging to the mainstream... still...

"Tyee is not my idea of "independent media" seeing that the majority of its authors have mainstream dependent views. But..."

An insightful observation, brother/sister. Still, there is that "but". Its comment threads are left "relatively" open and untouched, to here, and hence "useful" to this "citizen discussion".

Still, I hear ya. Maybe... or more accurately "hopefully" by the time of the end of this "useful" period of Tyee, a more truly "independent" media period and form will have actually emerged... and not what just passes for it... like what passes for democracy in our society.

But again, like I say, it is useful. So let's use it.

coyoteman

Thank you for your kind comment... and it's "brother".

Dot, Dot, Dot....

"... I 'get' why one stays in the midst of a society, the entire foundation for and value set one has naught but contempt for."

[PERSONALLY OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

"self-satisfied smirking radiating"

I've read every one of these posts and I don't see any "self-satisfied smirking" or gloating over the plight of women in Afghanistan or "a bunch of people kicking" something while it is down.

Do you have any “constructive criticism”? And to whom do we give “due credit” for this war?

Are Canadians supposed declare war on sovereign nations, tear off across the globe and have their sons and daughters blown to pieces to keep their “dirty-minded men” from getting a glimpse of a woman’s ankles as she’s being flogged?

How does the following quote you posted radiate “self-satisfied smirking”?

"This exchange is a perfect example of how we, the citizens, become aware of systemic injustices in our society, and begin to make change."

How do Canadians show “contempt” for their own society by not wanting to blow to pieces men, women and children from another society on behalf of multinational corporations who don’t give a crap about the plight of women in Afghanistan? Are you that naive to actually believe that nations wage war to punish a few “dirty-minded men”?

Coyoteman

I don't think it's going to be a good time to be in the US military with any name that sounds even remotely familiar to Hasan -- or with a complexion that may be best described as "swarthy"...........

Let the pogroms begin!

The Collapse of Empire...

"Let the pogroms begin!" says RickW.

Their military is beginning to unravel, brother, as they have been warned by the most observant of their own officer corp, including General Butler here, for some time now. The "Endless War" strategy to which the Empire's Industrial-Military Complex is reliant upon, inevitably leads to a desperate weariness of spirit and breakdown in function, at first, at the sharp end of the spear, as we last saw happen to US forces in Vietnam.

The social dysfunction even. within civil society and the economy, is as well showing signs of serious coming undone. Such that we may indeed see, on the part of a large fascist element within US civil society, pogroms of desperation to "cleanse" itself of impure (non-White and non-Conservative Chistian) value elements. Which would certainly assume a rabid anti-Muslim character, of course. But also, anti-Latino.

Empire's begin to come undone when the cost in blood and treasure, of maintaining the empire, becomes greater than the benefits gained. The signs are that the US Empire is, if not already there, drawing close to it. And when this current Rome unravels, the intolerance built within it and its class/racial history, could well lead to a time of great fascist ugliness, in my greatest fears. It might even rival that time of ugliness of Nazi Germany, which followed its defeat in WW1 , imposed reparations costs by the victors, and the subsequent Great Depression.

Right now, the US Empire honeland is in that self-righteous anguish and hand wringing stage of denial and breakdown. This country needs to distance and isolate itself from the Empire, as quickly and far away as possible... before the pogroms begin and we get drawn into it. Which may already be unavoidable.

There will again, eventually be a healing time, of course, when we can then revisit our relationship with whatever is left of the US. (Which may even breakup to one degree or another. For there are a whole number of stressors within US society that could push events in this direction. From which we might even potentially benefit, amongst its northern border states.)

Coyoteman

This might interest you:
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488

There are forces at work (some might say coming home to roost) that are acting to postpone (if not outright deny) the familiar (if somewhat fictional) prosperity of yesteryear.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/business/economy/07econ.html?_r=2&th&emc=th
That Tom Cruise movie "Born on the 4th of July" is probably the simplest example of the above-mentioned fiction.
But this report from the New York Times is a good indicator of what is becoming an insurmountable obstacle to "recovery".

Consequently (and it is beginning to happen now), the American people will begin casting about for someone or thing to blame, ignoring the Pogo truism that "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm
And while we ourselves up here may pass judgement, we are neither immune to the phenomena, and especially neither are we immune to the death throes of current American society, joined as we at the provebial hip.

"This country needs to distance...itself from the Empire...."

The people of this country and the people of the U.S need to distance themselves from the shadow government that rules Canada and the U.S. from behind the scenes. In order to do this the people of both nations need do identify who the shadow government is and by what means have they seized control.

Many who post here know exactly what I’m talking about. To discuss solutions without taking this fact into consideration is futile. The end result, without addressing the true causes to this mutual problem, will be the total destruction of our nation and our progeny.

Our Own Stressors...

"And while we ourselves up here may pass judgement, we are neither immune to the phenomena, and especially neither are we immune to the death throes of current American society, joined as we at the provebial hip." writes RickW.

I couldn't agree more, Rick. (Likewise soleprobe.) We are entering into a period, if not as dangerous, just about bloody so, as the Empire Homeland itself. We have not only been standing too close to them politically and economically for too goddamn long, since the collapse of our previous colonial fealty to the now defunct British Empire, we are too goddamn close to them geographically. About which we can, unfortunately, do nothing., (And we have our own internal racial/class/ and geographic stressors, capable of pulling us apart. Such that I know I don't even have to name them.)

So whilst ideally, in the preferred circumstances, it would be best if we fundamentally, just about sealed our goddamn border, economcs and politics with them, it is, frankly, unlikely to happen at this increasingly late hour. So it is most likely that we are going to fall into the shithole with, or in close proximity to, them. We have our share of all the same politically infected "fascist" types as they do, is my own suspicion; what I have previously described as our US Empire Loyalist types on the extreme/lunatic Right. (And there ain't no more committed a Catholic than a converted Catholic.) As the US goes, so they will go, in all likelihood.

Hopefully, between now and then, and the hour grows late already, there will finally emerge that needed antidote, a "revolutionary left" (peaceful or whatever) to stand against them, and move Canadian society away from them, and everything they stand for.

It is the only hope we have really. And there are no guarantees. The "liberal/social democratic" left has already sold out, and in its leadership anyway, is most likely to prefer to hide or acquiesce.

It is going to be much harder for us to seek each other out after the fact, than now, still in advance of it.

coyoteman wrote:

"It is going to be much harder for us to seek each other out after the fact, than now, still in advance of it."

That is a very important observation....

One worth pondering...and more importantly, if we want to make it through this...one worth acting on.

reply to several good people

“…Are Canadians supposed declare war on sovereign nations, tear off across the globe and have their sons and daughters blown to pieces to keep their “dirty-minded men” from getting a glimpse of a woman’s ankles as she’s being flogged?

No, and I never said I thought this to be the reason the war is fought, but only that it would be one of the ramifications of leaving the chips to fall where they may, which I thought might make it less of a joyous thing to contemplate. Besides, the glimpse was not caught during the flogging, but was what precipitated it. Are you mocking these people’s misery?

“…hand the country back to the people who had it when they arrived. What a fiasco.”

This could just be me, but when I seem to hear an unspoken ‘tsk, tsk” at the end I generally rate the speech as gloating.

“…the forces of the Empire are gunning down their own. Which is a good thing, and rattles them in a way that were it even the Taliban, it would not in the same way.”

So, as long as the right people murder each other, it is OK with the violence? This is not gloating?

Now for the contempt:

“….a low water mark for Western 'civilization'. North America has been terrorizing the Middle Eastern Arab nations since 911”

911?? This was done by whom? The Algonqian people? Or a bunch of Vikings who got lost in a storm?

OOOH, you’re taking about 9/11? Who was it again that terrorized whom there?

AND Please define ‘civilization’. You said it, coyote: I need instruction in the finer points of living….

“…war is bad for everybody except the corporations and the banking families.”

Sure, ask any Dutchman or Dane, how much they resent interference from that big ugly continent to the West.

“.being the bootlick state we are,”

Sure, ask any Cuban.

“..How does the following quote you posted radiate “self-satisfied smirking”?
"This exchange is a perfect example of how we, the citizens, become aware of systemic injustices in our society, and begin to make change." “

Because I don’t see any change, just talk. We have this damnable penchant for talking endlessly without any action, and then when somebody finally takes some action, such as helping invade Afghanistan, we sit on our asses and heap scorn on them. What earthly or unearthly right do we have to brand our troops as stupid, rather than support them?

"...less of a joyous thing to contemplate."

So women in a foreign nation being flogged is a less joyous thing to contemplate than waging an illegal war. So to you waging an 8-year illegal war is a more “joyous” thing to contemplate.

I don't mean to offend but since you accused the entire board of branding our troops as stupid I think your less of a "joyous" comment was rather sick.

Hidden Agenda

"Hopefully, between now and then, and the hour grows late already, there will finally emerge that needed antidote, a "revolutionary left" (peaceful or whatever) to stand against them, and move Canadian society away from them, and everything they stand for."

"Or whatever...", here we have many people saying that war is not the answer and only the nasty guys wage it with 'our' money and our children sent to fight and some to die but what does the word 'whatever' mean? I doubt that 'whatever', in this context, formed part of Gandhi's lexicon. It strikes me that this simply confirms the belief that exists in the minds of many people that their battle is a good one and if the change is brought about peacefully or by the alternative, the 'whatever', then it is therefore justified.

This would not be any "needed antidote", this would simply be another rendition of folly and waste which was so poetically immortalized in that wonderful Propellerheads & Shirley Bassey song, History Repeating.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE_1tCasi_Q

Sick, is the word...

"So women in a foreign nation being flogged is a less joyous thing to contemplate than waging an illegal war. So to you waging an 8-year illegal war is a more “joyous” thing to contemplate. "

And that is the point about this woman, soleprobe. She is sick.

Even the majority activist women's movement in Afghanistan, one representative of whom appeared recently on CNN and rather stunned the interviewer, said, in words to the effect, that the "Empire invasion" has, in fact made the situation for "ordinary" women in Afghanistan much more dangerous and fraught with risk. She further angrily said that it would be far better if "all these foreign invaders" just left our country, and left us to work this out over time amongst ourselves. As it is now, it is "they", the foreign invaders, who are killing us, and making our lives so dangerous, and for their own ends, not ours really.

This simple reality, this "sick" woman here, in my view, because she carries this self-righteous "white man's/woman's burden" around with her, to civilize the savages of the world, knows so much better... from her relatively privileged position, many miles and a whole history away. And doing so, she ignores the long history of women's struggle even in Europe and this country, from the time of being burned at the stake as witches to the bitter suffragette struggles of only recent times, that it took and still takes for women to secure the right to vote in THIS society. And to not be considered the chattel property of a man, but a person in her own right.

Even when I was young, which was not THAT long ago, in THIS society, many, many men still viewed it as their RIGHT to expect sex on demand from their wives, and even to beat them.

Afghanistan is a society still largely existing in pre-feudal or feudal times, with the attitudes that go along with this, largely because of constant invasions and invasion threats from the outside, typically the West, over a very long history. It is a society, as a result, that has virtually been in a constant state of war against invasion for centuries. This history which has left them with a legacy of a kind of "arrested social development", including in attitudes, especially of men. (But I would be surprised if not in women too, in many ways.)

What they desperately need is a prolonged period of peace, and the opportunity to secure some measure of prosperity and the more "relaxed" attitudes that can come with this alone, for Afghan men and women to have the opportunity to further "evolve" their relationship, as we no less had to.

Only a "sick" person themselves, convinced of their own superiority and superior history, cannot understand this, and would rather still, engage in their own twisted notion of a "righteous" killing and maiming war.

Yes, in my view, she IS sick.

Violence or Non-Violence... Part 1

Realisticman.

This issue of "non-violence" versus "defencive violence" has been a long and oft debated subject, for longer than even my lifetime.

And it would be nice if life, especially the effort to change some of the major elements and injustices in it, were resolvable by simple formula and good intentions alone. But, I suspect, they will not.

And don't get me wrong. I do not myself advocate violence as "necessarily" an indispensable element in carrying through a successful social revolution. There have been, are, and will likely ever be a complicated array of elements that will determine the character of this, especially in our "relatively" privileged part of the world. Here where, I frankly think the likelihood of an at least "relatively non-violent" social revolution is highly possible. (Though remember, Candi's "non-violent" movement was not the ONLY movement that brought down the British Empire in India. There was a long history of violent struggle that preceded it, and indeed was carried on in parallel time with it, which helped make Gandhi's option "preferable" to the British, in the end.)

And indeed, I personally advocate a non-violent struggle to transform our society. It is most likely, though it is probable to be sorely tested by "ruling forces" in our society, that it is this "tactical strategy" which will attract the greatest number of supporters, in my view, and have at least a "good" likelihood of eventual success and the most desirable final outcome.

Continued....

Violence or Non-Violence... Part 2

I mean, who in their right mind would prefer a "violent" revolution as their "first" or "only" option, if society even has only a "good" chance of being transformed by relatively "non-violent" means? (Which does not mean that folks are not likely going to get their heads knocked in, be stun-gunned, pepper sprayed, thrown in jail and beaten, even killed. It is highly likely, in fact, to be part of what goes down, if and when.)

But all that said, you nor I, in that time and place are unlikely to have complete control over events and/or people's reactions to them. People are people after all, not Saints or Holy Saviours. Not all will agree with you or I.

Nor will you or I have complete control over the actions of the "other" side, standing with the ruling status quo. And there is a threshold of violence that can occur, but will hopefully NOT, and at a scale of viciousness, where I would ask folks, or myself agree, to impale ourselves on sticks, so to speak, without putting up violent resistance, if necessary. I am not totally suicidal.

And if you can't understand that, my friend, we shall just have to see how you actually react when and hopefully never IF we get there.

All that said, I think that the character of the immediate struggle that is most likely to produce a good result all around is, a non-violent one, seriously waged with dedication and commitment. And hopefully, without becoming complete naive or suicidal idiots, the "main" character of events leading to success in the transformation of society can be held to that.

Mostly, it's just that the other side also has something to say about how matters evolve. And only the most naive and foolishly idealist would fail to see that, in my view. I'm not looking for or expecting a place in Heaven, and thus will always choose what I see as the relatively safer to maintain my life here, earthbound

soleprobe

"So women in a foreign nation being flogged is a less joyous thing to contemplate than waging an illegal war. So to you waging an 8-year illegal war is a more “joyous” thing to contemplate."

No, my friend. You are so hot on that keyboard that you don't take enough time to really read what the lady said. People were sort of laying out that seeing the end of the Afghan initiative by just simply quitting on it would be, if not joyous then at least the right thang to do. I was pointing out that there was this and other bad ramifications of so doing, which might make the prospect of quitting and thereby ending the war as far as we're concerned less joyous than it might have otherwise been.

Do you get it now? I do not see any of the choices as joyous, but even so, there are degrees in how much they are not so. I meant to make it clear for you, that which is the lesser of all the possible evils is not a simple question. Some people in that country have committed themselves in ways that might leave them very badly off if we simply pull out 'as advertised'. The words of Stephen Covey comes to the fore: Begin with the end in mind. 'The end' surely has to be something more nuanced and sophisticated and (dare I say it?) intelligent than a bureaucratic red 'X' on a calendar

Now about that relatively privileged position....

Coyote, you just can't quit making assumptions about people, can you?

What makes you so sure that I am 'relatively privileged' and has never been on the barricades as a 'bitter suffragette', not to mention lived with a man who considered it his right to beat me (only if it was necessary of course)?

I am not going to regale you with my life history, but suffice it to say that apart from the unlicensed (or so I believe) mental diagnosis you foist on me, not to mention the general character assassination, I damn well want to know what concoction sent you out on that shamanic journey. I am not going to bother asking you to translate into English for me, for I know you can't do that. One had to be there, with one's own spirit drum, next to that camp fire. Some channeling, WOW!

Thanks indeed for sharing...three whole letters. I truly appreciate it.

the baricades...

PatrickMcEvoyHalston has pointed out in another thread that corporate rule has helped to create the unnurturing society we live in, and then gets to point the finger at the lawless violence that occurs in protest ...(I am paraphrasing PMH, his comments can be read on Tielemans' Dissent and The Media). Surely this is worth considering...the 'norms' of the world we live in were not always so, and it must be acknowledged that desparate times foster desparate measures...in war, or protest, or 'peace' missions...
Dorothy, I make no assumptions about you and thank you for 'manning' the baricades very ably. I do take exception to one comment about 'endless talking' without action - in two ways. First, it would be preferably to hash over the problems of Afghanistan over the conference table, in my view, than in sending people to be killed. That is rather simplistic, surely, but talk sometimes deters rash actions. But what we do here is more than talk...we engage as a community in discussing the biggest problems of our times. I do not see any other action that could be more effective, save involving more of the community in the discussion...
I believe in order to do that respect and tolerance are required on the part of everybody in order to - at the very least - look at another viewpoint in a considered way. I make these points not in reference to you, or anybody in particular, but as my observations about how important I believe this particicpation to be...

And another thing

“…She further angrily said that it would be far better if "all these foreign invaders" just left our country, and left us to work this out over time amongst ourselves.”

Two things:

This is one opinion, not a broad survey. You could also, during the Nazi occupation of some European countries, have picked out those who would brand the resistance underground as ‘dangerous and irresponsible troublemakers, who just made everyone’s lives more difficult and provoked the Nazis to violence against civilians.’ Amen.

Sure, there are people everywhere, who will rather duck and take it. This is a personal viewpoint, based on emotion, not an argument.

Also, this option was on offer, before Afghanistan fostered a violent movement that came crashing trough the front door of our house. If they could not control the thugs, then others must come and do it for them. And incidentally, I don’t espouse the white men carrying any burden for the World. It’s just that we so often get handed the mop and pail.

"...Afghanistan fostered a violent movement...."

"...before Afghanistan fostered a violent movement that came crashing trough the front door of our house."

Afghanistan didn't foster a violent movement against Canada or anybody else. As to what came crashing through the front door I assume you are referring to what came through your TV set. My suggestion to you is to turn off your TV set because you will continue to be programmed and severely misinformed.

"...lived with a man who considered it his right to beat me..."

This very much explains where you are coming from but we can't wage illegal wars with other nations because their men beat their women. If other nations thought this way Canada would have been invaded a long time ago.

vivianlea

"what we do here is more than talk...we engage as a community in discussing the biggest problems of our times. I do not see any other action that could be more effective, save involving more of the community in the discussion..."

Thank you for your gracious addressing of this issue. You are right. I find that I wasn't clear in what actually irked me. It wasn't the talk per se. but rather the self praise, as in 'what we're doing here is sooo good'. But that isn't what I said, so you are right in calling me on it. Thanks.

And of course debate IS needed. I make that statement equally with everyone here by participating.

As for corporations, the thing I cannot escape is that we ourselves handed them the economic clout they are now bashing us over the head with, because we wanted 'stuff' and we wanted it cheap, and there were so man of us wanting it. So, all our pennies rolled into these very few pockets, and they held on to them. Therefore, although extreme, the only EFFECTIVE 'resistance' would consist in not procreating, not buying other than bare necessities, and bartering among ourselves to the widest extent possible. And every time I say that, someone will categorize me as a throwback to the dreamy commune years. But I'm right. It's the only logical approach, to reverse what put us here in the first place.

Will you never quit

cherry-picking one idiom out of an entire line of thought and thinking you have 'solved the riddle'? Never did I suggest that we should wage war solely because some men slap their women around somewhere in the world. There is one Hel of a difference between facing one man in a stupid squabble that might very well be pretty equal, and then suffering under systemic violence on a completely different scale! I am quite aware that many men in Canada suffer from communication deficits, but my point is something entirely different: In Canada, soldiering is voluntary. We must assume. if we are not to be insultingly condescending, that those who choose it know the possibilities and risks. If they choose to take up a fight elsewhere in defense of principles they consider important, it is the business of who else exactly? Not being in a position to offer them a better job here, I don't have the temerity to tell them to come home and get into cleaner living. In our Horatio Alger-oriented zeal, there are other things to consider, such as those the Taliban did and do consider chattel and treat accordingly, and of which some have come out of the closet as assertive, which might cost them dearly, if we withdraw our protection. Some of the troops on the ground over there may be much more aware of these things than we are.

After the Durand Line expired ...

in 1996, a century after it was signed:
http://www.khyber.org/pashtohistory/treaties/durandagreement.shtml

and opportunities were missed :
http://www.expressindia.com/news/ie/daily/19991116/iex19059.html

We confused 'war on terror' for religion instead of nationalism:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EJ25Df01.html

How is this war in Canada's interest ?
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_16-10-2003_pg7_46

'As we break faith with those who die

shall we not sleep,

while poppies grow

in Afghan’s fields ?'

The Durand Line & The Legacy of the British Empire Period...

Again, really good stuff, Oilbertaredtory. Thank you very much for this.

I am familiar with some of this history, but much new and updated stuff here too. To say nothing of how much one forgets as well, as the years roll on.

(Dorothy clearly needs professional/other help beyond my expertise or skill level. So, I think, I'll just leave the good woman be. )

Good night all. I've got an early morning and "chores" to tend to. :-) The Mrs is out playing cards with the ladies. All that said, you are all, including Dorothy, an interesting read. :-)

And yourself VivianLea.

And to you, too

"Dorothy clearly needs professional/other help beyond my expertise or skill level. So, I think, I'll just leave the good woman be."

Probably a good decision, but I won't say you don't help at all. You certainly inspire me to develop my thoughts. So, don't sell yourself short here. You can take some credit for a lot of the more intricate writings I undertake....

Poppy fields, oh yeah. There is another streak of independence in us Canadians. We sell Codeine OTC, while the Yanks consider it evil and ban it. Why can we not give part of the license to the Afghans, but instead let India and Turkey hog it all? Not fair!

"Beat" or "Squabble"

"...considered it his right to beat me..."

"...facing one man in a stupid squabble."

So now it was only a "stupid squabble".

Beat (hit, strike, bang, hammer, thrash, pound, punch)

Squabble (argue, quarrel, bicker, wrangle, have words)

...there's quite a difference.

Dorothy...

"Probably a good decision, but I won't say you don't help at all. You certainly inspire me to develop my thoughts." Dorothy.

:-) I am pleased. And I am even content with that.

where are you going with this?

"Beat" or "Squabble", etc...

This is definitely a side bar. Are you doing this for entertainment or to pick personal tit-for-tats with other people? The topic was the ongoings in Afghanistan and how they differ, in scale and brutality from a domestic squabble here and now, which I would, by definiton, consider stupid, as there are better ways of settling things.

Hope this clears it up. Please read the entire piece of writing, before you fly off the handle and pick on your own apparent hot-button words. You should consider that what I said was not an original complaint, but a reply to someone's lack of discernment. You are running out on a tangent.