Job training

We have a skilled worker shortage in Canada because the private sector expects taxpayers to pick up the tab for skills training. As one corporate exec put it, "We're not in the social work business." I believe it is high time the private sector stepped up to the plate and co-ventured in a meaningful way with governments.

Skilled workers

Having the Canadian taxpayer absorb the cost of bringing skilled workers into Canada from abroad is a cop-out by the private sector. It is about time they put their money where their mouth is to assist in the cost of skills training for Canadians.

Three quick points

First, I am struck by the sheer and utter lack of undstanding of international business and the international labour market by our premier. I am being very generous here because otherwise, she is giving BC away from under the feet of the people of BC.

Second, the reason that the whole issue went to the Alberta court of appeals in Alberta in the case of the Chinese workers killed in Alberta is that Sinopec claimed that they could not be bound by Alberta regulation or laws as they are an arm of the Chinese government.

Third point, Chinese mines are the deadliest in the world. Importing technology?????????????? What are we going to hear next????

Wake up Ms. Clark, your government (and consequently, the people of BC) are being taken advantage of.

If capitalist Harper's dream

If capitalist Harper's dream of "free trade" with his communist friends becomes a reality, we can expect closed labour camps all over Canada, filled with foreign workers, working for pennies.

For the sake of "economic efficiency" and "growth", of course.

In any case, the sale of resources is not an income, but the sale of capital in any business theory and system.

Something our capitalist friends are carefully hiding from the public.

"CANADA FOR SALE! COME AND GET IT !"

Will the people, not only here in Canada, but all over the world, will ever wake up to the royal screw and legalized crime wave that's going on to strip them bare, in the name of "economics" ?

Ed Deak.

Employ our own

One of the reasons that there is a shortage of Canadian miners is drug testing. To change that if you are on EI or Welfare you should have to do a drug test to get your check. That would cut off an army of people that would soon decide mining is better than starving.
Also require at least one apprentice to be employed forevery journeyman employed. That would solve the skilled worker shortage in the trades in about 4 or 5 years. The time it takes to get a journeyman's ticket.

One apprentice per one

One apprentice per one journeyman is not realistic and no business could survive it.

I used to have one apprentice per 4-6 journeymen, which was about right, but that could be different in various industries and trades.

Another problem is how many people would want to become apprentices, when they get daily propaganda on how much more they could earn with university education?

Even in the 50s and 60s, years went by before somebody came, asking for an apprenticeship, and some quit long before completing it.

And it wasn't because of their pay, because I always paid good wages . They just got fed up working. As one guy said it : " I'm fed up having to get up in the mornings and have enough time now to go on UI. Could you lay me off so I can get it ?"

I told him where to go in no uncertain terms.

Ed Deak.

Fascinating question; the ultimate outsourcing!

Why not have Chinese workers come here to dig their own coal? They could work under Chinese mine managers, to the Chinese labour code, under Chinese civil law. We could grant the mines special status to exempt them from BC laws and the Canada Labour Code, washing our hands of the whole business, charging by the trainload for the exported coal.

We could even stand by and allow drug dealers to sell them opium, skimming money for the Canadian economy. I won't even think about the opportunities for prostitution.

It sounds horrible and I am being sarcastic but you can bet your bottom dollar, someone is planning it right now. It would be the most efficient way to extract the coal and make sure it goes to China.

Employing our own is just a dream. Canada hasn't done that for years. Remember that recent accident in Ontario that killed those Peruvian chicken innoculators? What was THAT about?

B.C. Run by Rubes

'Pat Bell, Minister of Jobs, Tourism, and Innovation, welcomed the plan, explaining that in the area of underground mining, domestic companies "haven't developed the technical expertise that the Chinese have."'
That's true. Our companies are nowhere even close to being able to kill miners at the rate Chinese companies do.
There's no need to try to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to the rubes who run our government when you can get them to fall for nonsense like we don't know how to run a coal mine.

Skilled jobs

Of course there is a shortage of skilled jobs in the mining sector:there has been a shortage of mines.But the powers that be are trying to bust the unions,right? Bringing in Chinese labor for this flurry of recent activity will accomplish that task and ensure the shortage of skilled Canadian labor will persist.Would these new mines be opening without being able to exploit the Chinese laborer? Go ahead,sell us down the river, screwballs.See who gets elected next time.

The 1% are always preaching "supply and demand"

The "free market" they idolize is only for them. Cost of food too high (middlemen and traders making economic rents)? That's just supply and demand. Your housing too expensive? Supply and demand. Of course, the ownership and financial classes are happy with that. But, whenever it works to favour normal people, such as increased demand for labour in the few industries that cannot be relocated overseas leading to higher wages, they rig the system by bringing in slaves. Why even have a sovereign country at all?

Amazing to me how the media never hold these "labour shortage" talking heads to account regarding the obvious solution for not enough people willing to work. Clearly, the wages are too low. One recent example I heard was how the restaurant industry is claiming a shortage of skilled kitchen staff and culinary schools have waiting lists, hence we need to import labour. Of course, even the industry shill had to admit that the starting pay for culinary school **graduates** (no doubt many saddled with student debts) was MINIMUM WAGE, the hours are long and variable, and the work is hard and even dangerous. I wonder how that compares to underground coal mining. See the disconnect?

Until there is less than 2% unemployment, **all** immigration should be curtailed. This is not the 1950s any more. Employ the people here first, create a healthy and sustainable economy for the citizens, then talk about importing more labour. Their beloved free market will sort out whether or not any individual business is viable and what the fair labour rate should be.

Finally, I posit that any business that depends on sub-class slave labour rates to be profitable is not worthy to remain in business and resources are better allocated elsewhere. That's what a truly free market does best.

Dangerous Precident

Canada is one of the leading mining nations in the world. We export our mining expertise internationally and we have coal mines in the SE of BC and soon opening at Quintet and Tumbler Ridge. We need to import coal Chinese miners??

If this is allowed to play out, imagine what would happen to all those high paying jobs in the tar sands when China starts to man their abundent tar sands properties with Chinese workers. Couldn't happen, don't be so damn sure.

If People in BC WANT to Work, They Can

RIGHT NOW. And forget the idea that ANYONE is actually "digging" for coal ! The coal mines want journeyman mechanics, licensed and qualified ore truck drivers, machine operators, and service technicians. IN FACT, they have brought in 100 temporary mechanics from as far away as Jamaica.

"One apprentice per one journeyman is not realistic and no business could survive it."
That is hogwash, Ed. In fact Teck Corp is offering that right now. They are estimating adding 2300 jobs in the SE Kootenay over the next 2 years. That's reality, not theory or opinion. 200 more jobs in Trail this year. The oil patch in Alberta is screaming for Class A drivers. So WHY is there "unemployment" ?? Because people don't chose to use their own initiative, get off their collective asses and actually go get work.

"LIFE has no remote, Get up and change it yourself."

@cboo44

Yours is the mantra of the "labour shortage" propagandists.

The constraint of not enough labour could be argued to be a moderating factor smoothing out the highly damaging boom-bust cycles.
The coal, tar, undeveloped land, or whatever will still be in there when the industry finally does train enough skilled workers. What's the big rush? Filling their boots while they have a friendly regime in power, perhaps?

And do you think the training standards for HD mechanics and whatnot are higher in Jamaica, or Guatemala, or China?

The industries just want to keep all the money and won't properly invest in new generations of skilled workers, or pay what it takes to make someone want to, first, spend the time and pay a lot of dough for training and then move into the boonies to work in a miserable camp where the risk of being maimed or killed on the job is high.

The people with the smarts to do technical heavy industry trades work are also smart enough to do the math. Even at $30 an hour (that very few get to earn until years on the job, if the boom doesn't end first), which folks like you seem to think is extravagant, has nothing on the "no workers!" whining CEOs making that much per second.

No, the numbers for actual wages for apprentices and graduates of trades programs doesn't really add up with the propaganda. This push for foreign labour is strictly for the benefit of the corporations and absolutely undermines the rest of the Canadian economy and society.

Come now Cboo , how many

Come now Cboo , how many apprentices have you trained and in what trades ? I have trained a few in custom furniture and taught nightschools until Bill Bennett stopped non credit courses.

They need a lot of attention in various trades, especially for the first couple of years. Then second year apprenticea can be a problem, because they think they know a lot, but don't have the experience yet.

Ed Deak.

Okay more like two apprentices per journeyman.

With the schooling they have before they even get a job as an apprentice they don't need that much supervision. And though I didn't work a trade but in technical work the industry typically had 10 to 20 technicians for every professional that signed off their work. Ed, You sound just like the companies I see that put out postings for 10 tradesmen and no apprentices making it difficult for my apprentice son to find work.

Foreign Miners

I wonder if these foreign workers can pass the test for a class A coalminers ticket in English. This is what I had to do in order to work in an underground coal mine in BC. Where will they find the firebosses. It is dangerous enough working underground,I sure as hell would never accept Chinese safety standards.
I see the corporations want the Government to supply skilled labour, maybe they want the Government to supply the equipment too, that would surely look good on the bottom line.

If Canada is for sale there

If Canada is for sale there is enough money overseas to buy it.

Echoes of Robert Dunsmuir

He was castigated for hiring Chinese workers too. This is different though. Dunsmuir hired a few Chinese to work in his pits. This would be an invasion of miners, probably running their own show, under Chinese management. We would have to rename this country Chinada.

By the way there is no such thing as a safe coal mine. It is probably the most dangerous kind of mining one can do, with methane gas and explosives in the same space. Coal miners were the real heroes of the industrial revolution. Today they are pawns in a sick chess game.

Depends on the trade, how

Depends on the trade, how much supervision apprentices need.

In many repetitious, run of the mill trades you may get away with more per journeymen, but in highly skilled, custom trades, where every job is different, they need a lot of help, supervision and training before they pay for their wages and don't hurt themselves with the machinery.

When the materials cost an arm and a leg nobody can afford to make too many mistakes.

When I first started my business in 1957, teak was the most expensive wood at $1.20/board foot. Last week I saw a piece at my lumberyard $47/bf. The same goes for other hardwoods and materials in many other trades.

It was bad enough when somebody screwed up a job then, but today it could be disastrous.

Ed Deak.

woodworker

The "miners" up in the tarsands have plenty of work - and the drugs flow freely:
http://oilsandstruth.org/tale-two-cities-good-bad-and-ugly-fort-mcmurray

So just what is your point?

BC's secret weapon!

All the coal has to get to a deepwater lading on CN Rail tracks!

Seriously, these mines are penny-ante stuff for China, which still gets most of its coal from Australia and SE Asia. BC is being used as a bargaining chip to get the other parts of the world to lower their price, improve their access, or both.

Congratulations, Christy! You're helping Australia reduce its barriers to "temporary foreign employment" with your short-sighted sell-out of our own.

Gawd, the excuses here are legion! Listen to this one!
"According to the chair of HD Mines, the Murray River project represents a particularly daunting engineering task. With targeted coal seem running as deep as one kilometre beneath the surface, the project may require the world's largest ventilation shaft to pipe out vast quantities of dangerous methane gas...

It is for that kind of expertise that the mining industry will have to turn abroad, says David Bazowski.

I'm sure Stantec Engineering will be very surprised to learn that, what with a huge mining division that has engineered open pit, deep mine and hazardous geology facilities all over North America, some far deeper than a kilometer such as at La Ronde.

This whole project smells like David Emerson used to - a modest amount of half-digested pap for the uninformed, a sound bite for the politicians, and a big sell-out to the foreigners for one of two reasons - to sell some uneconomic resources for ourselves, or to be used as a bargaining chip to force resources elsewhere to reduce their prices to keep the business. Sudan and Nigeria have certainly seen this kind of behaviour from China in spades.

When BCers are tired of it, they'll simply have to let their politicians know. Ballot or rope, makes no difference, but as always, getting the uninformed to show a little initiative is the big problem. They're too captivated watching pretty little moving pictures on their i-screens to consider issues of substance.

ridiculou

Don't be SILLY. The province won't be inundated with chinese cheap labour coal miners! That's ridiculous. They'll come from Mexico, Chile, Peru, Honduras, India...

Don't be goofy

Talking about Chinese labor needed to dig BC coal, it is totally ridiculous, they employ any villagers couldn't care less to risk their life just to survive back in China. Don't be so goofy as to believe these 'giants' will employ "professional" workers. They pay CAN$ 20 per hour on the table for any worker with agreement of 90%flowing back to the powerful personnels' own pockets under the table. With Canadian experience and passport as the bonus, couple times of "workers" salary worth of fees would be paid back to the persons in power at the backroom. This is how it will work. All BCers will be in trouble once they come, cash-payment-decades like Toronto to come!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skilled? Really?

I guess it depends how you define "skill."

I worked for Denison and Teck in Tumbler Ridge, and most of the jobs required between 4 and 16 shifts worth of training. It's hardly worth importing workers with those "skills," unless there is some other reason (wages? benefits? working conditions?) for doing so.

Perhaps foreign tradesmen may be needed (in emergency circumstances), but the vast majority of workers at a mine are operators, and there is no need to import operators.

The more important issue is to provide a social environment Canadians are satisfied with. The turnover at mines, and the reluctance to work in northern locales, has more to do with the workplace cultures and the social and intellectual climate. I think these issues could be solved at low cost by a creative human resources department.

I am not against importing labour.

But i am against importing the health and safety practices from other countries.
It is just lip service from the government when they say they will be able to inspect the mines for safety.
There is a trade shortage. That comes from the education system and the way tradesmen are viewed in society.
when i was in high school in the 1990's trades where not talked about.
What we where told is only collage and university where our only options. That if you don't do one of those things you will not have a great life.
My experience i was not interested in academic studies. So i was failing math,english ect but getting A's in woodworking and mechanics. It wasn't till grad 12 and almost dropping out the year before my student counsellor said what about the trades? I have now been in the trades for ten years and have had a good life.
Now I know that there is enough unemployed people in canada to fill these jobs. But to train these people would cost to much for the mine operator. Then we should just leave the coal in the ground. Until it is cost effective enough to train these people. Or when bringing these foreign workers over they have all the same rights as us also they should be able to quit there job and get another one.