Van Isle makes a good point.

Even the folks In Kitamaat Village can see a "set up". Harper is in the Enbridge pocket so is Christy Clark. Thes "visionaries" can only see selling more resources as a way of financing their schemes to favor their friends. Oil interests rule for now. What they don't realize is that every citizen can only be pushed so far.

In the pocket of Enbridge

Step right up government employees. You own almost TWO HUNDRED EIGHTY MILLION BUCKS worth of Enbridge

ENBRIDGE INC 4,698,492.00 279,184,394.64

http://www.bcimc.com/publications/pdf/Inventory/Inventory20110331.pdf

So I would therefore expect any government worker should have absolutley no complaint about Enbrige. Otherwise they are just .....sanctimonious hypocrites.

happy

Kinda like a right-winger putting his kids in a public school or taking advantage of medicare?

I don't get it Frank

You'll have to expand on that one. How does using public services PAID FOR from personal taxes compare to someone accepting money from a private entity while denouncing it at the same time?

Breaking news

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2012/01/breaking-news-elmer-derrick-and-gitxsan.html

Happy

But I don't see the government employees rallying to the Enbridge cause on this pipeline. Now if they were front a center, you might actually have a point. Nice try at a red herring though.

I'll walk you through it Skywalker

It's quite simple. If you are a government worker or retiree you are already, or will be recieving a very nice comfortable Defined Benefit pension payout.
Loking through the link I provided anyone can see the Plan is LOADED with stocks mainly from large corporations, such as Endbrige. And many other large oil firms for that matter. And banks too. I could go on but just look at the link.
THEREFORE all government employees are, or will be, accepting money from these large corporations through their pension cheques.
THEREFORE, as I already said, if you are a public worker and are on the Tyee here opposing Enbridge with one hand while at the same time having no problem pocketing the cash with the other you are a hypocrite of the worst kind.
No red herring. Fact.

You're off the mark happy.

You're off the mark happy. You seem to think that public workers have control over how their pensions are administered, when in reality they have no say and are trusting others to do right by them. Fat chance there. We're 99% in this together, let's not attack each other and let's focus our anger where it's deserved.

It's horrendous that we are even involved in a debate over this issue. This type of development should be unthinkable, yet the 1% could care less. The comments of joe oliver have tipped the harper government's hand, the er review process is a sham and we will have to endure increasing levels of propaganda passing as reasonable debate. Grim.

Cynic

The public workers have union reps on the investment board that makes the decisions.
So they have plenty of say.
They CHOOSE where to invest. And they chose Enbridge among others

So what?

I don't give two shits weather it's Big Unions or Big Business who are invested in this disaster doesn't take away from the fact this is a stupid idea. Destroying the source of our wealth is just dumb voodoo economics.

So what?

I don't give two shits weather it's Big Unions or Big Business who are invested in this disaster doesn't take away from the fact this is a stupid idea. Destroying the source of our wealth is just dumb voodoo economics.

@Happy

The conclusion you reach that anyone who has an investment in Enbridge, or who is part of a group that has invested in Enbridge, is therefore and must be in favor of this pipeline is plain silly. I know you are fond of this type of diversion but it is like suggesting that a union member who doesn't like employers who treat their employees shabbily should make his point by quitting is job. That kind of logic is nonsense. You fight on principle to change things. Whether it is where you have investments or where you have invested work time makes no difference. Your contention, that because they have pension funds in Enbridge, they endorse every Enbridge decision is bizzarre.

and Sockey

I wouldn't give three.

Happy is, eer as a clown

Or is that happy as a clam.

Stale argument made by Michael Campbell, echoed by you, sad, no, pathetic..

Have you ever been there?...Ever see the 40 foots waves that rise from 3 foot waves in an hour, and the fog, the heavy tides, no, I thought so.

Canada still imports almost 50% of its oil from foriegn sources, supply the Irving refineries first..

And perhaps you haven`t considered this...

What next, first British Columbia, then Quebec, how about Harper ending Quebec`s fracking ban?...How about the protesters 8in the Maratimes, every Province would be a target...

Harper sold all of Canada`s nuclear, what if Harper demanded nuclear plants built on the sunshine coast, called it.."In the national interest"

And because there`s a tiny piece in your RRSP you say sure?

Weak pathetic argument, are you Ezra`s cousin, or just stunned..

P.S....Moderators, please don`t edit, Happy is a big BOY and can take it.

Dedicated to Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkmEZs_Kcms

Super Mario

Matthew. You're a plumber? Experienced? Trade certified? No jobs in Kitimat? MOVE!!! People do it all the time. Lots of work all over the province. Sorry, we (those opposed to this stupidity) can't and won't accommodate your needs and wants, but hey...that's life.

Happy - you're dead wrong

"The public workers have union reps on the investment board that makes the decisions."

The Joint Trust Agreement which governs the relationship between bcIMC and the employee groups and union trustees which are party to it have absolutely no say in what investments are made.

http://www.pensionsbc.ca/portal/page/portal/pencorpcontent/mpppage/publications/boardgovernance/policies/mpp_jointtrust.pdf
Pp. 20-25

I know personally, as I tried to get a motion up to the bcIMC investment panel to divest from the RAV line private placement in 2007. Couldn't get it to fly. The Joint Trust Agreement only governs what is done with the money earned by the plan, and what to do if the plan doesn't earn enough money to cover pensions.

The bcIMC investment panel still has not completed a guidance and review report on the ethical investment policy - it's been "working on it" for I don't know how many years.

Just goes to show how the filthy process of making money is far removed from the workers who actually do the work of making products.

But in one limited sense you're right. Enbridge pays $5.8M each year in dividends to the pension fund, and if the employees actually had any say, they would say "That's just fine like it is already, thanks. Don't get so greedy - pigs get slaughtered."

But they don't. That's why our pensions have us invested in P3s that take government and union jobs away, tobacco and armaments manufacturers, and all kinds of things that make our world such a delightful place to live... for a few.

My sympathies, Matthew Mask

Even if the pipeline goes through, you'll still be out of work. The pipeline construction companies are all eastern-based and bring their own crews in. You'll be stuck replacing toilets and doing basement suites for the rest of your life in Kitimat - there's no future in the pipeline for you, Local 170 member or not.

Struck a nerve?

Nowhere have I said (go back and read carefully) that if you have investments in Enbridge - as all public employees do - is that you are in favour of the pipeline.
I said if you are profiting from Enbridge -as all public employees are - then I find hypocritical in the extreme to to go off on the evils of greedy corporations and their shareholders when you are yourself a shareholder of such greedy corporations and are recieving monetary benefits from that relationship.
You can either put up or shut up, preferably the latter cause I know you won't do a thing to slow down the cash flow from those greedy corporations into YOUR pocket.

Mr Bucket - I don't know what you are referring re M Campbell. If its the public pension issue I first brought that up long ago as zalm can attest to as we have had this discussion before.
And I've told you before your insults are wasted on me, I'm an arrogant prick and don't care and they add nothing to the discussion except to boost your ego. Save them for the thin skinned.

zalm

That stuff's not written in stone, you know.

Of course, if people wish to spend all there efforts opposing the pipeline then it will come to pass when it finally is approved.

zalm

I'll take what you say in consideration as you are one of the few level headed members here who can put forth a reasoned argument without emotion taking over.
I don't completely buy it that there is nothing ANYONE can do. You say the investment panel has been working on a guidance review on ethical investments for "years"
That sounds like a convenient cop out to me. Where are the rank and file demanding the panel produce results?
I'm willing to bet apart from a few voices in the wilderness like perhaps yourself agitating for change there is deafining silence from the majority on the subject.

"if you are profiting from Enbridge"...

...you are not profiting from a pipeline that has not been built and possibly won't be any time soon. We were talking about the pipeline, Happy and you introduced the hypocrisy notion. That dog won't hunt.

Snappy Happy

It does nothing for my ego to insult you..

You know that commercial..

A strong slap across the face...Wow, you could`ve had a V8..

Consider my comment the same thing..

Enjoy your 900 ounce big gulp, along with the pound of sugar.

Enbridge will never get this pipeline built

The Harper Con Government will fall first..Harpers voters are dying at a rate of about 1500 per day, those dying voters weren`t, aren`t online, that demographic still believes the 6 oclock news...The youth of today are internet junkies, they don`t watch Sun media or glowball news..

They are concerned about their future, old dinosaurs like you Happy are pissing in the wind..

Harper can`t win the Tar sand debate, unless, unless cancer rates aren`t really rising, unless enough natural gas to heat every home in Canada isn`t being used for extraction, unless the Athabasca river isn`t being polluted, unless tailing ponds are killing millions of life species yearly, unless those are all myths..

Cheers

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/135614898.html

Sky

You are not comprehending what I am saying or are deliberately twisting.
Nowhere did I say that public workers are profiting, or will profit, from a PIPELINE.
I said quite clearly they (you?) are, or will be profiting via pension funds from ENBRIDGE, the corporation. It doesn't matter at this point whether the pipeline is built or not.
And seeing as how the company line from most of the posters here, who are from my non scientific observations, around 70% public union employees, is that large corporations are inherently evil and greedy.
Yet those same employees have 280 million invested in Enbridge alone, as well as every single major bank, oil company and mining firms among others, in the country.
Now, as zalm says the poor employees have no choice where the funds go, ok then.
It does not take away from the fact that public workers are living comfortably in their retirement from money supplied from profits made from those corporations.
So for the last time.....it is hypocritical - IF you are a public employee - to condemn those same corporations as evil and greedy when YOU will living off of in retirement.
I can't make it any simpler than that.

B of O

http://ohinternet.com/Internet_tough_guy

Cheers brother!

Thanks Happy

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2010/04/577the-unluckiest-numberten-years-out.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLbYL10c1zo

You know Mr. Happy, I have never pressed the offensive button on you, or anyone, lt`s called free speech.

Cheers indeed

One more thing Happy

I`m as nasty in person and won`t back-down from anyone.

Nor have I

And just so you know I can't open utube or psp at work where I am. The company firewall prevents social media and questionable web sites.
No problem with Tyee though, she's mainstream!

happy

Its hypocritical for right-winges to send their kids to public schools or use medicare since all they do is complain about them. Especially since the private sector offers alternative clinics and schools in many of the same cities.

You know the old adage, "practice what you preach"? I always support public services and always choose a lefty alternative when there is one. Which is why I hang out on the Tyee, use a credit union, buy local produce, don't use my private vehicle to commute and so on.

I just wish the Right would be willing to step up and actually use the private healthcare and education they say they want. Is that so much to ask?

Questionable?

I know, Its okay for the Mainstream media to lie their faces off, but real truth telling websites get punished..

And, get back to work, your socializing, try being more productive, listen to Phil Hocstein.

Frank

Private health care is limited to doctors clinics which are publically funded. We don't have private hospitals we can go to if we desired, the unions have a closed shop in that department so we couldn't step up even if we wanted.
Private schools are for the wealthy and most RW's are just regular middle class folks like your neighbours. Theres some pretty wealthy LW's too, who we know have used private services in the past per media reports. Didn't Glen go to private school?
We obviously need good public services Frank, I personally just feel the present monopoly where the unions have a pay up or else mentality is disfunctional for the taxpayers and there should be a more fair mechanism to settle contracts so the public isn't held hostage. Send them straight to arbitration would one way, but I can hear the bellowing now....

It is also hypocritical Happy...

...to criticize one member of a group for the group's investing in a company which is currently trying to get approval for a pipeline individual members of the group might object to, while at the same time arguing in support of the pipeline. That sounds like a very black pot calling the kettle black. I can't make it any simpler than that. It is a bogus argument, one you make repeatedly when you require a defection from the issue.

Sky

Show us where I was arguing in support of the pipeline. Nothing else please, just that

happy

There are a number of private sector medical operations around the province and country. They advertise on the radio and in the newspapers. They even provide phone numbers so they're not hard to find.

And although you may think the right-wing stand for good public services, that isn't true. I have never seen a protest of right-wingers against the privatization of anything public. Whether it be ferries, railroads, hospitals, clinics or schools, the Right always cheers it because supposedly the private sector are the only ones who know how to run these things properly.

My point is quite simple, I'd like to see the Right stand by what they tell the rest of us to believe. I want to see them go to private schools, sign up at the Copeland clinic and move to India or Chile for the good jobs.

One out of four Frank

The railroad was sold off (not exactly a core public service, caters to private business and always did) ferries, hospitals and public schools are still 100% owned and controlled by Victoria and the BC Fed.
And sure, you want to see RW's go to private scools and hospitals. But at the same time you still want them to pay taxes on the public ones, correct?

Whoa! made an error

(surprised you didn't catch that Frank)

After further review....it wasn't Glen that went to private school.
It was Moe.

happy

Has it occured to you that, because the average rank-and-file PS employee has little to no say in things, their (possible) objection to the pipeline is their collective way of pressuring those who make the investment decisions to reconsider? I beleive it's called a principled stance.

happy

The RR was sold off and RWs never protested. BC Ferries was set up as a private corporation (albeit still dependent on the public purse as we found out later) and no one protested.

Surgical hospitals and schools are not 100% publicly owned, you have options. Public schools and hospitals are 100% publicly owned but the private schools and hospitals are 100% privately owned.

Actually I'd prefer it if RWs just moved away, to one of those paradises with no public services and where capitalism is totally dominant.

That being said, I'm a-ok with RWs not paying for public stuff that they use, I just want the rest of us to get the same deal. Because I won't be paying for a lot of things, like police, military, prisons, roads, ferries, Harper's thousands of spinners, government operations in general, coast guard and so on. And since I pay more for those things than I do for education and healthcare I'll be better off.

happy

"It was Moe."

And the list of RW politicians that went to publicly funded schools and universities? I guess from your stance the answer is 0? Shall I check?

Frank

"albeit still dependent on the public purse as we found out later"
No, we didn't find that out later, that was the way it was set up, with the same subsidy it had when it was a crown. Why would I protest, the ferry still runs the same schedules they always did, the employees are still the same employees, the union is still the union and Victoria still owns it outright so what is this protest supposed to be over? Because of a paperwork change from crown corporation to publically owned private corporation? I need more than that.

Well if Moe, the prez, can go to private school and you have no problem with that apparently then I don't get why you care about RW politicians supporting the public system.

I thought you were in the military at one time and now have no use for it?

Perhaps Rick

But I believe in reality a pricipled stance will not achieve what you want. You need far more than that.
And the fact is that if all those oil companies, bank, and all the rest of those mega corporations were dumped from the investment folio then the end result would be higher premiums or lower payouts to compensate the lower returns.
And I can't believe the majority of your coworkers would agree to that.

@Happy

If that is not your position, why are you here creating smoke?

"I thought you were in the

"I thought you were in the military at one time and now have no use for it?"

The place was and is full of right-wingers who complain about people on the public tit, I think a little dose of reality would do them all well. See how many people are willing to pay for them and their overly expensive American equipment to "guard the country".

As for the ferries, the RW didn't protest because you were instead cheering it being privately run by a New Yorker making a million a year.

"then I don't get why you care about RW politicians supporting the public system."

Why? Oh pray tell, do I need to remind you its you that brought this topic of hypocrisy up?

How about you? Did you attend public school? Were your kids born in a public hospital? Were the nurses and teachers you hate so much in a union back then? Why do you put up with it?

No smoke Skywaalker

Frank, zalm and RickW had no problem understanding where I was going and took me up on it.
You just assumed something even though I went to great pains to explain several times.
No problem, we all do it but I always admit it when I make a mistake.

Time for me to hit the road, happy trails!

happy

Step right up government employees. You own almost TWO HUNDRED EIGHTY MILLION BUCKS worth of Enbridge ... So I would therefore expect any government worker should have absolutley [sic] no complaint about Enbrige. Otherwise they are just .....sanctimonious hypocrites.

How apropos of you to pick up the narrative where it best suits your point. But your raving makes it sound like the public workers are a special kind of hypocrite.

The reality is that our political-banking-business-investment model is a Gordian Knot, and for anyone to fully extricate oneself is virtually impossible. We are all hypocrites, though some would say cannon-fodder.

This is not a matter reserved for public union members and their pensions. It is systemic, and every Canadian's future is at risk for the same reason: the conflation of misguided purpose between private wealth and public office.

Can't let that one go!

"didn't protest because you were instead cheering it being privately run by a New Yorker making a million a year."

Do a search Frank and you'll find at least two posts where I said Hahn was grossly overpaid and BCF management bloated to the gills. VP's tripping over one another. I work for a way bigger company than BCF and we have FIVE VP's. They had something like fourteen when I made those comments. Typical government operation. Not one bit actually private where it counts.

Yes I went to normal school, yes my kids were born in a normal hospital and show me one single post where I said I hate nurses and teachers. I said I dislike their unions for reasons stated. That doesn'y HAVE to mean I dislike, or hate, as you put it, the individual members. I dislike the NDP but I don't HATE anyone just because they vote that way. Thats silly Frank that you make those blanket assumptions.
Ny son voted NDP in the fed election I didn't disown him and my best friend belongs to the BCGEU and I don't hate him

Now I'm definitely outta here, cheers.

Sigh..

...I might miss him. So as a reminder let me quote him,

"Step right up government employees. You own almost TWO HUNDRED EIGHTY MILLION BUCKS worth of Enbridge

So I would therefore expect any government worker should have absolutley no complaint about Enbrige. Otherwise they are just .....sanctimonious hypocrites".

I think that is pretty clear which side he's on.

happy to tell you

Last spring at it's AGM the BC Teacher's Federation voted to sell off all it's Enbridge stock.

Gateway to death

First , these pipelines carry distillate and bitumen , not one of these carry crude oil.
Second Canada imports 1.1 million barrels a day into Eastern Canada , and from where , Venesula , Saudia Arabia ( are they not the producers of unethical oil , lol )
Third this pipeline is the same as when they started shipping raw logs , it will kill jobs. Upgrade and refine it in canada.

Hal K

Gosh! I wonder how Ezra Levant would explain that away? Taking a guess, I would say he'd ignore this "inconvenient truth" - like all the other Harper Conservatives do.

Priorities

Said elsewhere in the Tyee, this coal, oil and gas are Canadian resources, not corporate resources.

We need a Canadian Energy Strategy (totally lacking now) to develop renewable ("sustainable" has been so misused) energy production using our fossil fuels to develop these, on site if necessary. Refining must trump export.

Although I'm not a strong nationalist, our eastern bretheren deserve first priority to Canadian energy. Build the pipeline eastward, beside the private CN or CP tracks if liked.

I don't especially like shipping to China, but given the NAFTA agreement to never reduce supply (only increase) to the U.S., even if in difficulty here, we do need to put caps/limits on export in that direction or renegotiate the agreement. In that view, export elsewhere makes sense, barely.

Those along the route deserve full say and influence, formulated not from economic desperation but what they choose as best for them and their offspring for many generations to come. Anything less is, twisted, hideous modern colonialism.

Slow down, (not necessarily stop unless out of control) oil sands hyper-development, build those needed refineries to ship a relatively cleaner, less corrosive product (good jobs there), ship it eastward to reduce or eliminate "unethical" imports to Canada, including foreign sourced distillates.

Anything else is smoke and mirrors. We will still continue to develop most oil sands projects already approved (can't really stop those), export to the U.S. via existing pipelines, make profits from eastern sales and protect our mountain streams, coastlines and those who depend on them.

The only losses may be some modest profits to big, sloppy shareholders, CEOs or lobbying companies.

Or possible Harper government credibility, but most Canadians would surely gain from going this route.

Need some sort of movement to make something like this vision a reality. Northern Gateway and such shouldn't even be in the consideration phase, its that bogus.

Not so fast, happy

"I don't completely buy it that there is nothing ANYONE can do. You say the investment panel has been working on a guidance review on ethical investments for "years"
That sounds like a convenient cop out to me. Where are the rank and file demanding the panel produce results? '

As if a "panel" could do anything. I STILL don't know all the inner workings, but it appears the two union trustees and the two management (read: government) trustees take input from their members, but when referring issues of investment concerns to the bcIMC governance board and the investment board at the meetings, only have voice but not vote. Exactly how is not apparent to me - the trustees handbook is not in my possession and seems to be a closely guarded secret (which is probably wise - I understand managing money is a lot like making sausage or laws - unpleasant to the point of repulsive)

What I do know is that the rank and file can throw out every trustee it likes and vote new ones in - the due diligence required of every investment manager guarantees that no action will be taken to harm members' financial interests by virtue of divestment unless an equally-pecuniary investment can be made somewhere else. And apparently it's been difficult to find suitable investments, which is why the funds have been getting much more into private placements, which are very difficult to evaluate and quite illiquid, but at least offer a rate of return approaching historical means.

Read my lips: the rank-and-file has NO SAY until that policy gets developed. And at last count it still hasn't been, and I've been on the advisory committee since at least 2004, hearing that again and again. Meanwhile, we're occupied with other problems, like how to stop retiree benefits from being eliminated to top up the cost-of-living account (too late)...

That's why, with all respect to wvdk, the news that the Teachers have voted to divest their retirement fund of Enbridge stock is laughable. I do believe the rank-and-file did indeed vote that way. But the Teacher's pension plan is in as much trouble as the municipal pension plan - perhaps even a shade more - and I can only imagine what will happen when the bcIMC investment board hears from the trustees on that one.

But seriously I wish them well, and if they succeed, I'd like to find out how it's done, because I'm batting .000.

Some numbers

On the Enbridge website they tell us that they are building two pipelines, a 20" line to take 193,000 barrels a day TO Alberta. Huh, I thought the oil was coming FROM Alberta. It is, sort of, in a 36" pipeline that will carry 525,000 barrels a day. It turns out that tar sands oil cannot be pumped in a pipe line. It is just too thick so 332,000 barrels of tar sands oil must be mixed with the 193,000 barrels of conventional oil just to make it flow through the pipe line.

Oil and especially tar sands oil doesn't just flow through pipelines. Moving that oil requires a lot of energy and often the oil must be heated and if it is then the pipeline needs to be insulated. The Enbridge website does not answer these questions and surprise, surprise, they don't utter the words, 'global warming' anywhere nor do they have a 'Contact Us' tab on their website, http://www.northerngateway.ca/