Whatever the outcome of the

Whatever the outcome of the final Stanley Cup hockey game there's going to be a riot (somewhere)it is as simple as that. Oh, and Vancouver, you're not the 1st city to have a sports riot and there are going to be more in the future and most probably, in some other city. So get over it and quit gazing at your navel.

Political Riot?

If this had been a political riot you would see some real action from the powers that be. Not so much for sports as it's not the politicians asses in the sling. Lets see the insurance companies suing the Canucks, the city, the ineffective police etc. Or will they just be payed out behind closed doors? Let off the hook due to an act of nature?

Boundaries - none

So let me understand this clearly ... "according to section 65 everyone who takes part in a riot is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."

Futher to this ... "There are sections in the Criminal Code about rioting and once the police tell you to clear, if you're in the area and if you don't have a justifiable excuse, presumably you're guilty of that section."

And the Criminal Code of Canada defines a riot as "an unlawful assembly that has begun to disturb the peace tumultuously".

So which part is not clear to people??? I don't get this.

It doesn't matter how you interpret the picture - anyone on the picture pozing in front of a burning car, taking picture or watching people steel and loot is GUILTY! End of story.

But...since the Canadian law is very lenient and usually a 'sorry' will suffice - none of these youngsters will be charged and to many there will be no serious consequnces. And I can almost guarantee you that the next time there will be a chance they will do it again. Because the first time they got off without any serious disciplining that would affect their lives in some way.

Many of these young, and mostly white and affluent kids have never learned boundaries at home or in school (and now in society) so they will test it how far they can go. Should be no surprise here.

I think what we'll see from here is twisting of the law and twisting of anything that a parent can afford to get his kid off the hook. And life will go back to normal by the end of summer.

Just pathetic.

Great article - thank you.

Back in the good old days

Back in the good old days and old farmer got into some trouble with the law and was advised to get a lawyer.

He went to town, asked around where he could find one and was shown a fancy house.

He went in. There was nobody in the front room, but a door was lightly ajar. He opened it up and there was a distinguished gentleman sitting behind a large , fancy desk (I may have built it some years ago.)

The farmer shouted at him: "Hey, you the guy who lies for money ?"

Ed Deak.

anecdotal evidence suggests

anecdotal evidence suggests there were hundreds of people in the area attending other functions or duties unassociated with canucks game...they could not escape and were probably caught on camera. Will they be prosecuted to the full extent of the law?

Priorities

While I'm certainly not condoning property crimes (who would?), it seems to me that there's better use for police funding than a full-throated pursuit of every last participant in the riot.

I mean, there's a balance to be struck, obviously -- a bunch of crimes were certainly committed. When plausible those responsible should be prosecuted. Especially when the crime was physical violence against another human being.

But look, 99% of what went on last Wednesday night was damage to corporate property. On a larger scale than we're used to, sure, but ultimately it amounts to a whole lotta tiny criminal acts, any one of which so piddly as to be invisible in the ordinary business of the city.

In terms of gross human misery, the 2011 riot probably has nothing on an average weekend in the downtown east-side.

So should we prosecute when we can? Of course, especially the serious crimes that were committed that night. But should we throw all the VPD's resources into tracking down a bunch of vandals and bystanders, and then spend millions of dollars passing them through the justice system? I think it's pretty clear that there's more important work to be done.

Riot good for economy

Lots of work replacing broken glass. People replacing burnt cars. Merchants replacing stolen goods. Flea markets selling expensive stuff cheap to folks who otherwise couldn’t afford it. Lawyers getting the guilty off. Maybe even hire more police. GDP goes up; everybody wins. I may even have to go to private medical clinic to have my tongue surgically removed from my cheek!

What did you expect ??

We now have a generation of teens and young adults that have been raised to believe they can do whatever they want with NO repercussions. Add to the mix, politicians who are so arrogant that they think they can dictate operational police procedures and policies, ordering the police to "play nice", ignore illegal activity, in effect, be as "lenient as absolutely possible", "avoid confrontation" so everyone can "be happy".
NOW, Mayor Moonbeam, City Manager Ballem and seemingly "bought and paid for" Jim Chu, are playing "circle the wagons".

The "innocent couldn't escape" ????

TOTAL BOVINE EXCREMENT ! Also known as a LIE.
The so called "innocent" were those that CHOSE to be observers of the event. Thereby providing the actual perpetrators somewhere to hide. "Just observing" or not, they were part of it. Near the end of the 2nd period it became OBVIOUS that there was an infiltration of small gangs of punks bent on causing trouble. In fact they were LOUDLY BRAGGING about it. That was(or should have been)the trigger for mature, responsible people to "Get the *&@#*^ out of Dodge." And they DID. On public transit, no less.
".they could not escape and were probably caught on camera." Just ANOTHER lame excuse for inappropriate and irresponsible decision-making.

Canadumb - Home of the Proudly Stupid

Is anyone surprised this happened in Canada, or Vancouver - a cultureless, consumption-obsessed, war-mongering, witch-hunting backwater? It seems we are obsessed with matching America's violent arrogance and bloated arrogance (it'll take some doing, but given the success of the kept press at brainwashing the ugg boot cell phonies we see so many of in the streets (burning or not), we'll get there in no time). Check the systematic, and apathetically observed, dismantling of our rights, which most other populations defend with their lives, the unmistakably purposeful destruction of anything resembling an education system (again cheered on by the morons it disables), and the ease with which large populations are whipped to useful hysteria by something as trivial as a sports event, and you can see a population possessed of all the thoughtless anger and self-disgust necessary for a riot. The only thing our psychopathic leaders did not anticipate was that their hysterical consumption orgy might go off the rails if the puck-headed mob forgot it was designed to get them to happily buy things like the olympic embarrassment did so well. If you've lived here for decades as I have, you have seen this formerly quite decent place to live descend into a rude, cold hick town where the rioting fools, by virtue of their pitbull stupidity and rush to violence hold far too much sway. We are all so proud of the love notes written to the city after thousands of our co-workers and neighbours destroyed it, but take another look and tell me, besides the view, what is so wonderful about this shallow amusement park? Yeah, I know, if I don't like it I can leave - the same argument we heard on the grade 2 playground. Have already made plans to leave. Was born here but am too humiliated by what it's become, especially after the burning hockey-tantrum, to stay. No loss really, the few of us with enough self-respect to leave you cheering monkeys to yourselves. Enjoy the ramping up of police power, and the resulting decrease in your freedoms. But you're not listening anyways, because, hey, some game is on, and the store's are closing.

The good cop / bad cop routine

The best strategy for the Crown to maximize the number of convictions is to positively ID suspects, arrest them, say "okay, look, we've got you on video/photo breaking the law, but we're going to give you a chance to get off light if you plead guilty to a lesser offence." Then they (police and Crown) have to hope the suspect doesn't understand the law nor has legal representation and jumps at the opportunity to get "get off" Scott free with a plea. While the Crown can boast the numbers of guilty convictions via this route, they can pretty much forget the 'fullest extent of the law' part promised by the Premier.

With civic elections looming and a possible fall provincial election, the cynic in me suspects that any prosecution strategy employed will boil down to maximizing the political benefit and minimizing political damage from the issue. Very little of this process will be about actual justice.

Along those cynical lines, I expect some politicians (save for Gregor) to drag this issue out for as long as possible because it's been a wonderful diversion from the real issues of the day.

Did the media even notice yesterday that a landmark report on the catastrophic state of the world's oceans, drawn from a consortium of the world's top marine scientists, was released? Or were said media too busy helping to track down window breakers and riot wall vandals?

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed to see the Tyee join this MSM parade by flooding its front pages with the riot story these past few days. I don't deny the importance of certain angles, but there does come a time when news bleeds into sensation and overkill.

What a riot!

OhCanada: "It doesn't matter how you interpret the picture - anyone on the picture pozing in front of a burning car, taking picture or watching people steel and loot is GUILTY! End of story."

Hey you kids, get off my lawn!

"We now have a generation of teens and young adults that have been raised to believe they can do whatever they want with NO repercussions. "

On what do you base this on? This is exactly the kind of over-the-top reaction that's not helpful.

I work in a large community college in Vancouver so I'm surrounded by teens and young adults. I interact with this "generation" each and every day. I can tell you there were just as many of them disgusted by what happened during the SCF as there are on the airwaves of CKNW.

Verso

There is hard data to support cboo44's comment. There's been some really good social science on generational differences, most notably by Dr. Jean M. Twenge in the USA. In providing the background to her book, Generation Me, she notes, "Most books on generations throw around ideas about social trends and pop culture, but don't have much data on the actual characteristics of people from different generations. This book has the data -- it summarizes thirteen years of my research on the responses of 1.3 million young people." For more on Twenge's research, go to: http://www.generationme.org/

We would be very naive to think all youth generations act and think the same. They don't, which is why your notions were often in conflict with your parents and grandparents' notions when you were growing up. The fact is, Generation-Y is different from Gen-X and different from the Boomers. This is not about blaming kids, but about trying to understand the things that tend to define a generation. None of this is to suggest today's kids are bad; rather, social science informs us about trends, norms, mores and cultural nuances.

Can Twenge's research inform us about last week's riot dynamics. Yes, it can, but within statistical/data reason. The data doesn't explain individual events, but it may help us fill in some spaces in arriving at some conclusions.

Okay, this is definitely my last contribution to a riot discussion on the Tyee.

At wits end?

Or why is Chu resorting to intimidation tactics?

Alan...

Thank you for the link. I'll check it out.

"We would be very naive to think all youth generations act and think the same."

Obviously, but that's not what I took issue with. It's cboo44's statement that todays youth have "been raised to believe they can do whatever they want with NO repercussions. " I find that to be reactionary in the extreme.

It's not an attitude I've encountered with the young people I interact with and it's not what I was hearing the morning after the riot. I realize that's anecdotal, but at least it's not an opinion that's been formed solely through the media.

I wonder....

I have the same feeling for the legal "profession?" as some of you. But I wonder if I stood in front of lawyer Mine's million dollar house with a hockey stick in my hand and a broken picture window in the background and had someone take my picture and send it to him..... I wonder if he would still be so ready with his defender's comments?

Don't you just love defense

Don't you just love defense lawyers who can always find a story for anybody who is paying them.

What about ethical or moral responsibility

Such a bigger societal question here - although I do agree with the poster above who suggests Van stop navel gazing...it's true, dumbass sporting event inspired riots happen in other places too.
But for all those bored, spoiled suburbanites who trashed our fair city, offering "suggestions" on how their behaviour could be more favourably interpreted is a sad, sad testament on our social values. These kids will convince themselves that if their guilt can't be proven then they aren't actually guilty which is not true at all. Is this really what we want to teach our kids?!
Also, as far as I'm concerned there are no "innocent observers" either - If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. This is most true in a mob scenario.

Riot 3

It is the third riot for Vancouver. I don't know why and I doubt that anyone else does. We need to figure it out and fix the problems.

I was at the first one and tried to talk 3 people into leaving after they did the same then I left. I don't know if it helped reduce the violence but I have always hoped it did.

It has to stop. It is not the cops who will stop it.

Only YOU can do it.

No great loss

"Have already made plans to leave. Was born here but am too humiliated by what it's become, especially after the burning hockey-tantrum, to stay. No loss really, the few of us with enough self-respect to leave you cheering monkeys to yourselves."

Good. Get going. You can have my blessing. Wouldn't wanna hold you back. we don't need people here, who are only capable of your kind of whining, but people with ENOUGH SELF-RESPECT to roll up their sleeves and go right on working for the needed changes. Where in the world are those important friends who you are so embarrassed to admit your Canadian affiliation to? I have friends in other countries, but most of them are capable of distinguishing between myself and the dumber sorts of my fellow Canadians.

Are you $#8^@9& serious?

"But look, 99% of what went on last Wednesday night was damage to corporate property. On a larger scale than we're used to, sure, but ultimately it amounts to a whole lotta tiny criminal acts, any one of which so piddly as to be invisible in the ordinary business of the city."

And the fact that most was 'corporate property' makes its demolition OK exactly how? We have regular rants about how callous if not downright psychopathic corporations are about everyone else's concerns! Do you suppose your attitude will inspire them and their owners to greater degrees of empathic citizenship? The ruination may be just peanuts to you. To some of those 'corporations' it was pretty devastating, not to mention depressing to their staff, who put care and dedication into maintaining their place of work in a decent state. It would really interest me to know what you yourself do for a living! It would take a pretty privileged background as well a a magnum-sized arrogance to make light of the incredible mess and losses some businesses came to find the morning after.

The Riots In Vancouver

Sad day for a great city, we all share the blame for a group of people who took it upon themselves to act out and destroy both public and private property. Kudos to those that chose to volunteer to clean up and kudos to those who chose to stay away and remain at home as I did. People who act out in this manner must be held responsible and believe me the VPD and ICBC will catch some of them and press charges. Some will get caught and maybe even do some jail time or whatever. These folks turned a great Canadian treasure into something dark and scary and we as a society should be all over this so that it can never happen again. How does a hockey fan justify supporting any team that happens to lose a series by destroying the very city that the day before they claimed to have "loved".It makes no sense at all but crimes were committed and people need to remember that they alone are responsible for their actions. I respect the offenders who willingly come forward and admit the wrongdoings, at least they really are sorry. Too bad that many of the looters and people that burned, smashed and stole will not be caught, some I think will get away with it.

What irresponsible foolishness

"....-- we will arrest you in a public manner suitable to the public crimes you have committed." Chief constable Chu

Ah the dreaded PERP walk...another facile Americanism better left south of the border.

What the hell happened to the idea that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty and the quaint notion that the law is meant to be enforced as part of a thoroughgoing system of JUSTICE and not simply a reactionary exercise in mindless vengeance?

The statements and actions of the authorities (and the media) – not to mention much of the public - are beginning to look an awful lot like the actions of the booze-whipped gang who rioted the other night: Substitute self-righteousness for self-indulgence; mindless Boosterism for ‘juvenile’ bravado; leaven the whole lot with liberal lashings of narcissism and a troubling appetite for face time and self-promotion and the participants and critics of this mess are largely indistinguishable.

Sad - but hardly unexpected. How did this man ‘get’ the job as police chief?

best defense of all

"I was drunk!"

Many a defense lawyer has utilized this for his or her client as numerous studies exist showing the relationship between alcohol and aggression.

"O thou invisible spirit of wine, if thou hast no name to be known by, let us call thee devil! . . .
O God, that men should put an enemy in their mouths to steal away their brains!
that we should, with joy, pleasance, revel
and applause, transform ourselves into beasts!"
--William Shakespeare, Othello (II, iii)

Just as we excused our former Premier his "sins" for getting caught drunk driving in Hawaii, we have blatantly ignored the association of drinking and the results of the damage caused after the hockey game.

Here's some info:

Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of child abusers.

OhCanada got it right!

I don't know where the Tyee finds its sources. This is a feeble attempt by Mines to inject some uncertainty into a series of slam-dunk prosecutions that will allow taxpayers to recoup the cost of replacing NOT corporate property but PUBLIC property in the form of police and ambulance vehicles. The corporate customers and their insurers can usually be relied on to take care of their own interests but it will cost them and they will no doubt pass on that cost to consumers.

I don't know what makes me angrier - deeply flawed legal argument by someone who should know better or willful blindness that suggests corporate property crime somehow won't take a bite out of all of us, including Joe Lunchbucket. Happily, OhCanada got it right and probably so did others.

... Wouldn't it be great if Tyee reporters undertook to get more than one side of every 'story'?

@Fish-counter

Vancouver Trash TALK?

That's legal TRASH talk buddy - I live nowhere NEAR Vancouver but I do believe in certain fundamental principles of justice and the importance of the rule of law.

Apparently some people are more interested in miming dumb shows and taking bows for the camera than behaving as officers and servants of a system that's meant to be an effective demonstration of the reason we have laws that are properly and impersonally enforced rather than simply the effective hegemony of the powerful and the wealthy over the weak and the poor.

Rousseau knew why the social contract depended upon the operation of a proper justice system - the Vancouver police chief, among others, apparently doesn't.

Now that the insurance companies have screwed their clients.....

.....many businesses are considering launching civil suits against an awful lot of those whose pictures were taken.

Perhaps there is some justice out there after all...........

If the VPD are so in favour of public shaming

If the VPD are so in favour of public shaming, perhaps we should shame the VPD officer (and the other two officers who stood beside him and watched) who shoved this disabled 90 pound woman to the ground for absolutely no reason.

What was this officer's name? Oh, that's right, I think it's kept confidential from the public who pay their f#*king salaries.

oops...this

oops...this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8K7j5olaeg

or this video..

or this video of Vancouver police once again abusing their authority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g59rvqXM6Rs&feature=related

I could spend the whole afternoon posting video links of the VPD abusing their authority.