Topic
None is talking up the carbon tax, and eco-activists don't yet see a champion to back.
Hit 'pause' on carbon tax, says candidate George Abbott.
While eagerly enabling tar sands and freeways, he's cooled out green foes.
Environmental issues were prominent in the 2009 election, with Premier Gordon Campbell's carbon tax giving him claim to the green high ground over the Carole James-led NDP which campaigned to axe a tax many environmentalists supported.
While there are varying opinions on whether those positions made a difference to either side's results, less than two years later none of the candidates to replace Campbell appear ready to pick up the green agenda.
Indeed, there have been few mentions of environmental issues in the Liberal race. Former cabinet minister and recent talk radio host Christy Clark has mentioned the green technology sector and jobs. Others have staked out where they stand on the carbon tax, with Kevin Falcon pledging to freeze it after 2012 and George Abbott saying he would hold a referendum on whether or not to freeze it.
But nobody in the running to be the next premier has really claimed the issue.
As Nathan Cullen, a federal NDP member of parliament who considered entering the race to replace James heading the BC NDP sees it, "The Liberals are running scared away from Campbell's climate change work, some of which needs to be enhanced and continued."
And environmentalists -- some of whom are encouraging people to join the parties and try to sway the campaigns -- are wondering whether there will be anyone to support in the Liberal race.
'Concerning statements': eco-issues organizer
"We've seen a couple of concerning statements come out from some of the candidates," said Lisa Matthaus, the co-ordinator for Organizing for Change, an environmental umbrella group. "I appreciate the fact some are letting their positions be known."
OFC is sending questions to all the candidates in both races and will publish the answers.
The most likely Liberal candidate to win green support would appear to be George Abbott, whom the group Conservation Voters of B.C. once offered to endorse when he was running to be an MLA, an offer CVBC chair Will Horter said Abbott turned down.
But that doesn't mean Abbott, who was a berry farmer before entering politics, is saying the right things to win support now.
"At this point nobody's obvious," Horter said. "None of the candidates coming forward is perceived as in line with the environmental values of British Columbians."
Abbott supports freezing carbon tax
In an interview this week with The Tyee, Abbott outlined positions on several environmental issues.
Asked what result he'd like to see in his proposed referendum on the carbon tax, Abbott said, "My opinion is a pause is warranted." He would not, however, recommend rolling it back since that would mean also having to rescind income tax cuts and other ways the tax was made revenue neutral.
"There are many people who are strongly supportive of leading in the battle against climate change," he said, but added it makes little sense to be the only jurisdiction in North America with a carbon tax. It is "punitive," he said, to put the tax on industries such as greenhouse growers when their competitors across the border don't have to pay it.
On Enbridge's proposal to build a pipeline across northern B.C., Abbott said he would reserve his opinion until the National Energy Board has its say. He did observe, however, that "Enbridge represents an opportunity to increase markets in the Asia Pacific."
Offshore oil and gas exploration is unlikely to happen in the next 10 years and the provincial government should focus on developing industry in the northeast of the province instead, he said.
As for tanker traffic on the coast, he said, "I would not be among those calling for a moratorium on tanker traffic... I think it's both premature and probably unwarranted to take that step."
He said he's supportive of the Site C hydroelectric proposal for the Peace River, subject to regulatory approvals, and thinks B.C. should be exporting more energy.
In general, he said, he is open to any improvements in both sustainability and development.
I'm not an environmentalist: Mayne
The only other Liberal candidate to respond to The Tyee's requests for an interview was Ed Mayne, the former Parksville mayor.
Mayne criticized Campbell's carbon tax, saying it's not really a carbon tax unless the money goes back into things like transit, trains and home retrofits that cut greenhouse gas emissions. Asked if he'd support such a tax, he said, "To be honest with you, I don't think I'd be in favour of it."
Nor would he support increasing the current tax. It's not high enough to stop people from driving and hurts the people who can least afford it, he said. In many parts of the province people have little choice but to drive, he said. "You can't punish somebody for something you never give them an alternative for."
Asked if he would roll it back, he said, "I'd certainly like to have that conversation."
On other questions, Mayne was greener, though he allowed "I'm not what you call a great environmentalist." It would be better to put money into extending and improving the E&N railway, he said, than to follow Kevin Falcon's suggestion this week to put money into roads to ease congestion on the way into Victoria.
He said he wasn't sure whether proceeding with Site C or the Enbridge pipeline are good ideas -- he would want to consult and consider them fully before taking a position -- but that he supports exporting energy as long as it isn't to the detriment of the province.
Alternative energy
The province is missing an opportunity to lead a global shift, Mayne said. B.C. should engage its universities in an effort to build the green energy sector and develop manufacturing jobs, he said.
"My vision for British Columbia is to become the world's expert on alternative forms of energy," he said. "We've got the perfect attributes here for almost every form of energy." The province should be a leader on wind, tidal and solar energy, he said.
Mayne said he would only support offshore oil and gas development if he could be satisfied that there was no possibility of a disaster like the one British Petroleum had in the Gulf of Mexico last year. "Two years ago I would have said, 'What's the big deal?'" he said. "It would be nice to have the jobs, but I'm really not sure one offsets the other."
While environmental issues have yet to have significant debate in the Liberal race, nearly all the six NDP candidates at least mentioned "sustainability" and the environment when they launched their campaigns.
At this point the candidates have various goals, said Conservation Voters' Horter. They are building public support for their parties in preparation for a general election, but they are also focussed on reaching their existing members and saying the things they believe those people want to hear, he said.
Horter said CVBC would be happy to endorse someone, but doesn't have to if nobody is willing to go far enough to win that support.
The Liberals will elect a leader on Feb. 26 and the NDP will vote for theirs April 17. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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mmphosis
2 years ago
Don't forget the Green Party
I think that the vote splitting will continue. The NDP loses because a large number of people vote for the Green Party who might otherwise vote NDP. If there was no Green Party, the NDP might have a chance. Also, the BC Conservative Party could split the BC Liberal vote, but this hasn't happened, yet.
A coalition of parties might give progressives a voice. Obviously and despite what either party says, the NDP is more for people than the environment, and the Green Party is more for the environment than people. This is essentially what divides the two.
Anyone want to join me in starting a Left-Green movement in BC?
Lawrence
2 years ago
The Greens tried
you 're not the first to notice the Greens syphon off votes from the NDP at election and if the Greens were somehow ''dealt with'', the NDP would be the government instead of the Soclibs.
I have a good friend, Pat who is an environmental activist up on the Sunshine Coast.
I was sitting around at one of her parties and ended up in a room with Adrian Carr, Elizabeth May, and I think the other guy was Joe Foy.
We got to talking about what still makes sparkling good sense and that was, why don't the Greens and the NDP come to some kind of pact whereby the Greens would run unopposed by the NDP in the Sunshine Coast, which they would likely win,and they would in turn withdraw from the riding's the NDP would likely win.
Adrian said ''we tried that, but the answer was, you all quit the Greens, and join the NDP and we'll talk about it''
That is a really arrogant answer.
So every election I look at the stats and feel dismayed while the Greens keep the NDP out of power.
The NDP brass will tell you that the Green vote is right/left, but all the greens I know would vote NDP if they thought it would properly serve the environment.
So the NDP has to tell the loggers to relax, they won, almost all the old growth is gone. Same with the fishermen; almost all the fish are gone, and so are your jobs; you won, you can climb off the backs of the tree huggers now.
The NDP has to develop an honest, strong, environmental policy and promote it to the electorate; if you loose this one, there will be a left-green alliance.
Too much work, lets not go there.
Every election
Lawrence
2 years ago
Sorry
the ''every election'' at the end of that diatribe should not be there.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Lawrence
Don't you already have Clair Trevena which is representation proportional to your popular vote?
alive
2 years ago
the big picture, please!
It is difficult to have a sensible discussion with people who have a one-item policy and think that one idea overrides everything else.
We have seen it with the bicycle lane issues, where some feel that the majority must grant them privileges, whether it makes sense or not.
Likewise the Green party has only the environmental issue as its platform, everything else is a side-issue.
I am sure they realize that the NDP is more favorable to that issue than any other party, but since the NDP talks about other things, they assume they are not as serious as their beloved Greens would be (should they ever get one candidate elected).
It is too bad that people see their pet issue as the only item worth figthing over, but ignorance is all too common and generally it sets everybody back and lets the neocons bullshit their way into power once again.
motorcycleguy
2 years ago
John Horgan
The NDP has to realize there are a lot of potential voters out there besides party members. They are just not voting because they have lost all trust and confidence in both major parties. Old guard, new guard, left guard, right guard....we don't care. We want someone that can clearly articulate a commonsense approach to issues. The Greens have to realize that to effect change they may need to seek a coalition. This could be a real possibility with Horgan. Extreme left will still vote for him. He possesses core NDP sentiments to look after the regular person on the street. Small business will listen to him....small business is not the enemy here....many of them are less than enamoured by Liberal policies as well. Carol James did not inspire confidence with any group, no matter the policies she was attempting to get across. She did not (or her handlers did not) make the general public aware of the folly of things like drain the lake (not run of the river) power projects...very suprising that did not come up in conversation at the Sunshine Coast gathering....that is ground zero at this time for industrializing Narrows Inlet and sets the precedent for Pitt Lake to come on board again. Dix is good at holding Liberal's feet to the fire, but as a Minsister not a Premier...to offer him as a choice for leader is just plain silly after EDITED FOR UNSUBSTANTIATED ACCUSATION -- TYEE MODERATOR. It would show a complete lack of respect for the intelligence of the voting public and promote yet another low voter turnout. The general public is OK with Farnworth, but just OK is not good enough. He would also make a fine Minister. Horgan has the ability to increase voter turnout, and do it in favour of those who both want to make environmentally sound choices and ensure the prosperity of all, not just a chosen back room few.
politico
2 years ago
Horgan
The contest is between Horgan and Dix.
Farnsworth has a core of the party behind him but it is a core that will not win.
Dix is now the one to beat hence the consistent slams.
The story on memberships is blown out of proportion. The real issue is that the classic party establishment as represented by Gerry Scott are behind him.
The party desperately requires a democratic makeover these guys cannot deliver.
That Dix out organized everyone is the real issue these guys are pissing and moaning about.
There are no irregularities in the sign up situation, its just the other campaigns failed to mobilize a significant vote for their leadership bid.
Dix is without doubt the sharpest knife in the block. Horgan too, is a political dynamo and it may well be that Dix is enough of a lightening rod to catapult Horgan into the chair. Either way they are both well established New Democrats with long ties to BC's establishment. Dix plays to the party core Horgan plays to the commerce club as BC business's favourite socialist.
Either way any hope of party renewal is lost and a real change of course is not within grasp. However Dix may have learned enough from his stint at Clark's side to take a tack closer to Barret's approach than Miller's who Horgan served as chief of staff for.
In the end BC will be better off with either one of them as they are both head and shoulders above anything the Libs could and have offered.
politico
2 years ago
Horter
Does anyone really care what Horter thinks?
The OFC is outed as being funded by American Rockefeller inspired foundations with an agenda, much like this online rag.
Will and the OFC gang can carry on with their political hubris but to cast themselves as the voice of BC's environmentalists is disingenious at best and a complete deception.
Horter's endorsement is the kiss of death.
cboo44
2 years ago
FORGET "Personalities" for a moment
The NDP will go nowhere(again) if the party cannot deliver a clear, concise, articulated, sensible policy on how to reverse the Campbell Gang's giveaways of BC's resources, crown lands and profitable corporations to their buddies.
"The People" want their heritage back, they want access to their province back.
They want to know how you actually plan to do it.
People want to hear that the HST will be REDUCED to the level it was when it was called "PST/GST". You must tell them what a LIE that "no increase" was. HST will NOT be cancelled. It's a done deal, what can be done is be reduced to the level of the previous taxation rate.
But, above all, the NDP HAS to articulate it's policies, not just rant a slogan like "Take back BC", it has to MEAN something to everyone.
Skywalker
2 years ago
One may win but still loose.
If any of the front runners believe that the "party establishment", whether it is Gerry Scott or someone else holds the key to bringing everyone on side against the common enemy then I think they have something to learn. It was the party establishment that gave us the experiment of the past 6 years and the party establishment seems to have learned nothing if they are playing the same silly game.
Whoever wins must win cleanly and decisively and then be conciliatory to the others. The leadership style will have to be unlike anything practiced for decades. Otherwise the NDP will just be another version of Liberal Light with no clear vision and nothing to differentiate them from the pack on the other side of the House.
Lawrence
2 years ago
Skywalker
I'm not a Green.
I've worked in every election except the last two.
Every election since we got Little Fat Dave in.
Now there is a guy who knew how to run a good government.
In the late 60s the Socreds had paved over one third of the Squamish estuary,for a railway terminal.
At one time the Estuary was described as one of the most productive fish habitats in the world
This terminal quickly put an end to that.
The Salmon and Herring that once populated the whole of Howe Sound disappeared virtually overnight.
The Socreds were going to pave the other two thirds for a coal terminal when they lost the election.
LFD listened to the protesters and stopped the project.
Today thanks to those few environmentalists and a government willing to make tough decisions, the area is coming back.
Alive
Greens are not particularly one issue, that's just what the union folks in the NDP would like you to believe.
What I am saying is the NDP is going to have to go back to the days of Little Fat Dave and listen to the environmentalists, and do what they ask, otherwise the progressive politics in BC will remain split and there will have to be a new party formed.
mopled
2 years ago
As long as environmentalists continue pushing the Rockefeller
supported agenda of demonizing a beneficial trace gas, they have no credibility, whether they are Green or NDP.
http://www.green-agenda.com/globalrevolution.html
The Liberals just wish the carbon tax topic would go away, but that they could somehow keep the revenue.
The latest news is that warming, no matter what causes it, is good for trees. So, even if you think CO2 warms the Earth, it is time to rethink the topic.
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2011/01/plant-responses-to-global-warming.html
But yet another paper shows other things are far more influential on climate than CO2.
"Cosmic rays contribute 40 p.c. to global warming: study"
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/article1107174.ece
fairandsquare
2 years ago
Green Party platform covers all provincial responsibilities
It is an outdated notion that the Green Party of BC is a "one-issue" party. Have a look at their website and peruse the Green Book which outlines their platform.
What makes the Green Party different from the others is that economic, social, resource, and government policies align with a set of principles ensuring a long-term view of BC. This viewpoint protects the natural environment from being exploited beyond its capacity to renew itself or deal with society's waste production. The reason for doing this is to make life enjoyable for people. So ultimately, people do come first in the Green Party platform. It's like taking good care of your home and family.
Waltz
2 years ago
Economy and environment
When will these well intentioned leadership hopefuls grasp that in B.C. the foundation to our economy is our natural capital?
If we plunder our resources today, we will plunder our economy tomorrow.
Any leadership candidate that does not take seriously the importance of sound environmental policy does not deserve support, inside the party or from the voters.
Issues of pollution, forest renewal and safe clean water cannot go ignored.
mopled
2 years ago
Yeah, well "sound environmental policy" should include
denouncing a failed hypothesis that lead to lunacies like mercury filled light bulbs and burning food to make fuel.
Mikemah
2 years ago
surprise
And this surprises who? The Liberals prove again and again they are only concerned with short term profits. That's it.
Sooke
2 years ago
Global warming is dead, let's move on
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/global-warming-is-dead-lets-move-on/story-e6frg71o-1225990501249
lynn
2 years ago
Reality...or Reality Show? You choose.
"And environmentalists -- some of whom are encouraging people to join the parties and try to sway the campaigns -- are wondering whether there will be anyone to support in the Liberal race."
This is both sad and truly funny.
How could 'environmentalists' not know the answer to this?
If they haven't already forever erased the BC Liberals off their list of options, then really, what kind of environmentalists are they?
As for all the other political parties and their candidates, if they display no bravery in their environmental policies in taking on corporatism's relentless ravaging of the natural world - then you might as well forget those parties as well.
The only candidate worth even listening to is one who will at least admit to the dire reality of the times in which we are now living - and who will fully acknowledge that Time itself has become a real factor in creating effective results for real change.
At the very least, let us begin with the expectation that they acknowledge reality....and admit to it 'out loud'.
I know...it's a long long way to Tipperary....
It's a long way to go...
And this, only a first step of many....
However, if we continue to pretend by allowing these political popinjays to uphold the corrupt and the counterfeit through their sustaining of what is clearly both a fictional and ultimately suicidal world view, then we will continue to proceed at increasingly greater degrees of risk.... and against increasingly greater odds that any of us will survive corporatism's cruelest reality show of all.
samuidave (not verified)
2 years ago
Lawrence, have you ever considered the opposite as well?
Lawrence ~ you 're not the first to notice the Greens syphon off votes from the NDP at election and if the Greens were somehow ''dealt with'', the NDP would be the government instead of the Soclibs.
Mainstream thinking is that an 'environmental movement' like the Green Party would have to be more socially oriented and thus lean 'left'. But the reality is that the Green Party has shown itself to be more fiscally conservative and leaning 'right' on other matters.
So it is just as valid to reason that the Green Party also nabs votes from the 'right' who want stronger environmental practices in place -- not necessary mutually exclusive as clearly there is huge money to be made from the environmental issue.
Knowing the NDP Party is campaigning on corporate appeasement, finding a Party anywhere that puts people first is going to be a huge challenge. The only ethical place to park ones vote is away from any Party and with a single person accountable solely to the voters of the district. Vote Independent and give representative democracy a chance.
alive
2 years ago
fairandsquare
The Greens do have policies I am sure, but they also soft-pedal them because their members come from right as well as left.
Hence they know better than to upset anyone with policy announcements.
Much simpler to keep quiet and if ever elected then show their true colours.
Motherhood and apple-pie sounds good, so that is their main platform outside the environment.
Just a bit to simplistic for most voters, maybe some day the Green party actually will declare their support for the neocons and take their chances?
Ingmar Lee
2 years ago
Enviro's vote Liberal?? Bphwwaw!
Andrew, c'mon, -this statement, "...and environmentalists ...are wondering whether there will be anyone to support in the Liberal race... is preposterous.
There is not one single environmentalist in BC that would ever, in their worst nightmare, consider voting for a Gordon Campbell Liberal.
Okanagan Orchardist
2 years ago
To Mopled...
From a previous comment:
"The latest news is that warming, no matter what causes it, is good for trees."
When was the last time you visited the interior of BC??
Warming has devestated our lumber industry.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Green vs The Working Class Reality...
"If they haven't already forever erased the BC Liberals off their list of options, then really, what kind of environmentalists are they?" writes Lynn.
Which exposes the fundamental divide here on the environment especially, but also the bread and butter issues that tend to preoccupy the working class milieu. (Which is not to say the the working class is not concerned about environmental issues. They are. It's just that they are increasingly feeling "cornered" by more immediate and pressing economic and social realities.. And the Greens cannot even see, let alone understand, that there is a separate and distinct working class reality.)
On the the other hand, tending to further drive the working class away from seriously taking up the environmental cause, is the reality that the "Green or green" movement still tends to be framed by the relatively more well heeled and "upperish class" intelligentsia, who more often than not, can scarcely conceal their contempt for the working class masses, and are prepared to write them and their concerns off entirely. Hence they tend to be stuck in the mud of being this largely " upper middle to upper class" phenomena, with which the working class mass feels little or no sense of kinship.
Hence also the Green movement inability to finally and conclusively break away from a basic idealogical loyalty to status quo, ruling class dominant society and its economic model underpinning. Which manifests itself in ongoing evident "sympathy" vacillations toward Liberals and Conservatives.
I am convinced this is going to turn over eventually, and has to, in order for both the working class "bread and butter" needs and those of the environment (in which the working class knows it must live as well) to be taken up and succeed. The one, in this current world, is not possible without the other.
As for the NDP, it may win this next election by default again, but really it is only because roughly as many do not vote as do, and the indifference continues to grow, and secondly, there is an absence of real choice in any case. Otherwise, the NDP is fundamentally toast, and is already on its way out, certainly the current social democratic-liberal ideological and political model of it... in my view.
RickW
2 years ago
alive
You are wrong in this. The Green Party has a multitude of issues, all of which revolve around the environment. It is called "sustainability", as opposed to non-environmental issues from both the NDP and Libs which put off short-sighted consequences to some indefinable time in the future. Think Britannia Mines mess......
Stewart MacKenzie
2 years ago
Corporate Greens
The Green Party lost all credibility when it was taken over by the big bucks environmental elitists, who are democracy challenged to say the least.
By moving head honchos (or honchas?) directly from the Sierra Club, WCWC etc into Green Party leadership they have instituted a top down, leader focused agenda. In their minds, electing the "Top" Greens is the main if not only objective, rather than building the party from the membership upwards.
Elizabeth May removed our local Federal Green candidate just before the last election, replacing him with a faceless name, Amber van Drielen, who never appeared in the constituency, was interviewed, nor provided any picture or information about herself.
May's justification was that the party supporters needed a name to put an X by and did not think it mattered if the candidate participated or not.
Imagine an election campaign funded from a central office with similar "paper candidates" in hundreds of constituencies, intended only to bring in votes which could be counted nationally in a proportional system. It would be quite easy for the central elite to then take the seats in Parliament to which the total votes entitled the Party.
May has said that if we had the proportional system that she and Adriane Carr would now be in parliament.
Any well heeled elite could use this formula to obtain a foothold in government, with the chance of somehow holding a balance of power in a fragmented parliament.
May has repeatedly justified her parachute jump into the Gulf Islands by pointing out the old line parties do the same thing.
So - her model is based on the same old partisan BS, with the paper candidate scam being a new twist!
Stewart MacKenzie
2 years ago
Having said that
I must agree with many here that anyone with an environmental consciousness who could vote for the Liberal wrecking crew has not been paying any attention. From fish farms (aside: don't you love their new commercials - my 16 year old almost fell off his chair at the stupidity of their approach, which will make far more people distrust them than not), to the Prosperity toxic dump proposal, to Enbridge and oil tankers, the Libs are on the wrong side of every single issue.
I'm not thrilled with the NDP's environmental track record but it is hugely better than that of the Socred/Liberals over the years.
Jerry has a good point about the social class distinctions. Too many Green weenies (the term I use to describe the holier than thou types) fail to understand their own dependence upon the industrial system, and believe the solution lies in everyone else changing lifestyles.
Enviros driving to meetings in Beemers and then dissing loggers and mill workers for making half the money they are, is too real a stereotype!
Government money is seen by these types as pure, so if they make $100,000 per year as bureaucrats or $70,000 as teachers they don't see their own incomes as coming from nasty resource industries. A bit of research as to where the money really comes from will reveal the loggers, miners and mill workers are paying a huge chunk of the tab, especially as corporate taxes dwindle.
We are all in the same fix here, and all responsible for how our own consumption and living patterns are affecting the bigger picture.
mopled
2 years ago
It was a beetle that devastated the interior forests
and a Liberal government which cut funding to forestry instead of giving the requested increase meant to deal with the infestation before it got out of hand.
"From the 42 district offices that used to exist before the Liberals took office in 2001, only 22 remain. According to the BC Government Employees Union, 1004 employees have been cut since 2002—well over half of these among the district staff that were providing on-the-ground stewardship, forest management, recreation, monitoring, enforcement and compliance services."
And
"
Since 2002, in addition to staff cuts, most forest management programs have had budgets slashed by over 50 percent. The Forest Stewardship Division has been gutted and, in a sign of the times, its remnants have been absorbed by the new Competitiveness and Innovation Division, which is being led by an assistant deputy minister with no previous experience in forestry matters—a political appointment made directly by the Premier’s office."
http://peablog.ca/2010/07/28/retired-pea-member-and-forester-writes-indepth-report-on-bc-forestry-sector-for-focus-magazine-feature-story/
The warming was part of a natural cycle. Our response to it has been really stupid.
I came across this today. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-yo9CYv1mM&feature=player_embedded
Stewart MacKenzie
2 years ago
"meant to deal with the infestation before it got out of hand. "
The pine beetle was going to do its thing one way or another as the "Experts" had no more idea how to control it than anyone since First Nations stopped doing their traditional methods of control. I am told this involved burning off ridge lines between valleys so fires couldn't jump from valley to valley, then burning out any area of infestation as soon as it was noticed and the weather was appropriate for burning.
One solution our modern morons have tried is injecting trees with arsenic - when I heard this first I thought it was too stupid to be attempted but recently I noticed certain areas are being flagged as having been treated in this way. You can imagine the effects on animals and all the foods and medicinal plants nearby - how can ANYONE be that dumb?
Our entire forest management regime is quite insane and regards the entire landscape as subject to boardroom and government decisions - nature isn't aware of these authorities and will not cooperate, as in the beetle's devastation of the enormous Matthew Valley pine plantation. There, a mixed forest of fir, spruce, pine, cedar, and more was infamously clearcut then replanted only with pine - the logic being that we couldn't afford to wait for the natural cycle. which would have taken 50 to 100 years longer and produced a similarly diverse forest. The pine bee\tes were extremely grateful and killed all the young pine trees so now 30 years has been lost in the rush to go faster!??!!
Believing nature will conform to an economic model driven by greed, stupidity and impatience is too common, even among so called enviros who haven't begun to realize the extent of human idiocy represented by the present system.
samuidave (not verified)
2 years ago
Stewart MacKenzie ~ I must
Stewart MacKenzie ~ I must agree with many here that anyone with an environmental consciousness who could vote for the Liberal wrecking crew has not been paying any attention.
It is just as easy to say anyone who votes for a Party in the political system has not been paying attention. In fact, our perceived dependence is so tied to the moneymen that everyone in government cowers to their demands in time. A Party simply centralized their control which, as it is, exactly what power is about.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
More On The Failure of The Green Elites and NDP...
"The Green Party lost all credibility when it was taken over by the big bucks environmental elitists, who are democracy challenged to say the least." Stewart MacKenzie.
Many good observations across all these comments of yours Stewart... even if we disagree on the usefulness of the NDP.
But especially, I agree with your observation about the green elite intelligentsia, and their tendency to expect everyone to change, and especially expect less, excluding themselves. Here, they line up with the most reactionary conservative ideological tendencies within the status quo system... and make no mistake, the working class knows very well whom they are expecting to content themselves with less. I sure as hell know.
With nary a word ever, ever said about the ruling class and its CEO elites, and what they cream off the top of the economic order, and the standards of living and luxury they expect by Divine Right of Property. (Which is the real explanation for the extreme poverty as one moves down the class order.) And the absence of conscience starting there toward especially the working class environment, to say nothing of the other environmental aspects.
Which leads to a tendency in the overall working class attitude no doubt, that says, "Fuck you. I know who you guys are talking to when you talk of reduced expectations and share."
Which has been the experiential reality of the working class already, since Neocon Capitalism arrived centre stage. Whilst... Are you paying attention, green "ruling system sucks"? ...ruling/business class share, by fair means or foul, ponzi scheme or "legitimate" casino business activity; has gone through all previous and historical limits. (Dumping tax share ever more onto the working class, and forcing concessions and subsidies, and outright handouts from out of the collective working class wallet.)
Greens have to be mindful of the hostility they are generating for themselves amongst the working class hoi polloi, or resign themselves to endless marginalization as a relevant political and economic force. Smarten up, deepen and add breadth to your analyses, and face up to the class realities that have never and are not soon about to go away... this side of the status quo economic and social order.
continued next post
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
More On The Failure of Green Elites and NDP...
from previous post...
As for the NDP, if the "persistent rumours and stories" of trade union leadership support, that continues to flow cash subsidies as well into your coffers, is ever withdrawn or cut-off from you, you are toast no less than the Greens. You have never been seen yourselves by the working class masses, as relevant to their interests either. For good reason, I suggest. You are really only seen by "grunts" generally, only slightly more charitably than I grant you... just another self-serving party aspect of a corrupt political system. You are no less dismissed by the working class than are the Liberals and Greens really.
Only fortunately for awhile longer yet, for the lot of you it appears, the working class yet lacks either the knowledge or the will re what to do with or about y'all. :-) A state of affairs that will not last forever, methinks.
Frank
2 years ago
Fortunately
There's more evidence of the existence of Superman than there is the people you speak of coyote.
They don't show up at elections or in polls or on internet forums or anywhere else. An invisible majority indeed.
RickW
2 years ago
Jerry Munro
But why is it, if they vote at all, they react by swinging directly to the "Neocon Capitalists" that screw them so badly?
pianosaurus rex
2 years ago
simple really
There really is only one issue for the future, and that is the environment. Without a healthy, one food does not grow. Without a healthy ocean, fish do not survive.
If there is no food, then there are no voters to run down and place a X on the ballet of one of these dumb -assed political parties.
seth
2 years ago
Blood enemies of Gaia
No Green Party - the Brimstone Harpy loses every time.
Last federal election, exit polls showed that people who thought the environment was most important issue voted overwhelmingly Green ensuring that Brimstones fascists got to spend a few more years destroying Canada's environment.
Are Greens Canada's dumbest voters?
Neocon's love the Greens's, thinking of them as "useful idiots" who elect the Cons over and over.
The GP's existence rides on the brand name of the Euro Green movement who with their MMP electoral systems can actually get elected. Somehow some puerile Canadian's who don't play well with others, got a hold of the Green brand and now get a large contingent of brand conscious low information uninformed voters to vote their ticket These unfortunate voters give with their vote these irresponsible malcontents a huge pile of money magnifying their power enormously.
Their kind is despised in the US after GP leader Ralph Nader elected George Bush and sent the greenest politician in the world Al Gore to the sidelines. Their odious participation in that election gave us a million dead Iraqis', a fatal 10 year hiatus in the global warming war and the worst global recession in 80 years. After that experience American progressives all but eliminated the odious American green party.
Had the Green movement not been so successful at stopping new nuclear power over the last 30 years, hundreds of millions of people now sickened and dead from coal plant produced radioactive waste, dust, mercury, and arsenic, all over the world would be alive and healthy.
Global warming and peak oil would be unheard of.
Now by driving us right over that as little as ten years civilization ending Climate/Peak oil crisis with their silly "renewable" religion, and support of Big Coal/Oil's fight against nuclear power killing millions more every year, the Green Party seems bound and determined to kill lots more folks in very big ways.
Lots of Green politicians are running for the NDP and Liberals and have made enormous progress in turning those parties towards sustainable policies. More mature Green activists rejected the political party concept and joined with other progressives in the Liberal and NDP parties They have signed up Green supporters by the thousands to these parties, taking over entire constituency associations, sending green delegates to policy conventions, nominating green candidates and making sure the parties went Green. Stephen Harper even showed them how to do it with his Christian fundamentalist takeover of the Progressive Conservative party.
The Green Party reelected the Gordo last time, Brimstone Harpy twice and put BC and Canada back years in the battle against global warning. They have caused enormous damage to my country, my province and my planet.
Lizzie May and her cohort of useful idiots are the dark side enemy of the environmental movement and blood enemy of Gaia herself.
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
The Turning of The Tide...
"But why is it, if they vote at all, they react by swinging directly to the "Neocon Capitalists" that screw them so badly?" RickW
Actually, you know the answer to your own question already... I'm sure. While we don't really know for certain who the "non-voting public are", I think it is fairly safe to assume that the majority are working class. After-all, we are talking almost 50% of the total eligible electorate, and only the various working class strata could constitute such a mass.
Result: governance is only ever determined by a small minority, even of those that do actually cast a vote... typically about 40% of again, those who actually cast ballots, as best I recall... often even less.
It may even be that a majority of the working class don't vote. Or of those that do, more likely "the greatest bloc" of them are the upper stratas of professionals and managers etc, who are most in on the system. In any case they are the element of the broad working class that are most in on and benefit most from status quo capitalism. Plus the intelligentsia, of course, who likewise tend to be bought and paid for by the ruling class.
For the rest of us, there is simply no credible choice in a corrupt and unequal electoral, economic and political system. (The NDP is not really a choice. If one is thinking of voting for them, a party that in the entire post Social Democratic State period has been about as much a part of the overall neocon agenda as any other "right wing" party, and indeed now openly proclaims its "business friendly" capitalist party agenda, might as well vote for the real thing, with the most credibility with the ruling class. There still being a tendency toward, if we grant them enough cash and favours, a return in some charity and goodwill from the ruling class. (The NDP is even held in contempt by the ruling class. No one respects weakness and lack of all serious principles, not even the ruling class of capitalism.)
Though Frank is correct at least in part above here. The working class in politics, no less than in any semblance of serious input into economic decision making, are the great "silenced" majority. And in absence of their being in motion in any serious "alternative" way to the electoral system, they are, as much as if the were voting, still allowing the ongoing deterioration of their lives. I'll concede that.
continued next post...
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
The Turning of The Tide...
from previous post...
What can I say? But this simply has to change. And in my view, in due course, will.
When? I do not know.
Meanwhile, there is no real alternative. Certainly participation in the corrupt and ruling class controlled electoral system is not even a good stop gap alternative of any reliability. Witness the entire history of the post Social Democratic State period since the late 70s... a period of the unmitigated failure of both liberalism and political social democracy... to the sorry degree they may be actually different manifestations.
The turning of the tide is going to take more than any of the above. Only the working class can save itself.... and until it does move to do so, there is no real choice but to await what is destined to be.
samuidave (not verified)
2 years ago
picking up from seth and Jerry
seth ~ Are Greens Canada's dumbest voters?
Neocon's love the Greens's, thinking of them as "useful idiots" who elect the Cons over and over.
Jerry Munro ~ Meanwhile, there is no real alternative. Certainly participation in the corrupt and ruling class controlled electoral system is not even a good stop gap alternative of any reliability.
The principles are taken from Homage to Catalonia by Orwell, but the idea applies to the environmental movement or a 'social-democratic' Party as much as it does to a workers socialist revolution.
Two ideas stand out. One, it is foolish to think pure capitalism (i.e., with the paramount pursuit of self-interest for profit) can be kept in check and not lead to fascism; and two, any organization (read 'green' or the NDP Party) that is prepared to get into bed with an entrenched and dominant form of capitalism, will eventually be controlled if not consumed by the capitalists.
The green environmental movement under the Green banner and the NDP 'business friendly' policy are both victims, perhaps slaves, to the capitalist agenda. There is money to be made from the 'green' cause so they are welcome aboard, for others can use the cause to pursue self-interest for profit; and there is also the usurpation of the 'socialist' cause, essentially raising a false flag for the NDP 'social-democrat' crowd to follow while, in fact, making it the left branch of the same capitalist tree.
Dumb (ill- or mis-informed) voters, seth, are those who think voting for a capitalist-grounded Party can still change things for a saner and more ethical world for the people.
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2 years ago
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2 years ago
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Stewart MacKenzie
2 years ago
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Jerry Munro
2 years ago
Picking up on Samuidave...
"The green environmental movement under the Green banner and the NDP 'business friendly' policy are both victims, perhaps slaves, to the capitalist agenda. There is money to be made from the 'green' cause so they are welcome aboard, for others can use the cause to pursue self-interest for profit; and there is also the usurpation of the 'socialist' cause, essentially raising a false flag for the NDP 'social-democrat' crowd to follow while, in fact, making it the left branch of the same capitalist tree." wrote samuidave.
Outstanding contribution to this discussion, bro. Indeed.
What remains is for what you have described to be first, understood, and then acted upon.
Unfortunately, while I think there is this understanding already out there, in the contempt the working class has for all politics, it is not clearly enough so or the appropriate conclusions drawn about the "action" part of the equation yet. People are still, post the collapse of the Social Democratic State, working two jobs and otherwise desperately trying to cling to some vestiges of what had been won by dint of struggle in the post WW2. Unsuccessfully, of course, and with a growing sense of weariness.
Though there is still also that illusion that if we give the ruling class enough of what it wants in subsidies, tax breaks, grants and increased profits from reduced wages and more intense work schedules, "perhaps" they will start to reciprocate with some "compassion". Which is not going to happen of course, but the hope is still springing... (And somewhat, especially the NDP speak to this wan and desperate hope of "converting" capitalism.)
But to conclude, I think the "understanding" is actually there in the near universal contempt of the working class mass for all politics. It simply needs some additional fine tuning and for the dots to be connected that lead to doing something about it... action. Though first they must also see some light at the end of the tunnel, hope of action actually doing some good, otherwise they will continue to simply cling to what they have left, for as long as they can. (Nobody in their right mind wants to throw their lives into turmoil and conflict if no reasonable chance of success is seen. And, as yet, it is not seen.)
Which is about where we are, in my experience of my own class since the collapse of Social Democratic State Capitalism.
Lawrence
2 years ago
what i'm trying to do
is get the NDP party to get their policy on the environment together and get it out there.
I wanted the party to get together with the greens and make some sort of deal but that was rejected so now the NDP has to get the environmentally concerned voter to vote for them.This is the hard way to do it because many enviro-freaks don't trust the NDP.
I really would like to see some hard stats on who votes Green, I know there was one study saying some lost right wingers vote for them but the way I see it is most greens are good people who see BC being badly damaged by the right but just can't bring themselve to vote NDP.
The right supports the greens with money just to split the vote.
Stewart MacKenzie
2 years ago
And the MSM gives them
And the MSM gives them disproportionate and misleading coverage - such as the focus on the Adriane Carr campaigns where the likes of BCTV treated her as a serious contender when she was in fact a distant third or fourth.
The right wing honchos are quite happy to see corporate enviros dominate the Greens, as their concepts of democracy and social structure are pretty much alike - top down, no real accountability to shareholders, memberships nor the public!
MBCGA
2 years ago
Greens versus other (Anthropocentric) Parties
I disagree strongly with "Alive". The "environment" is not just one political "issue" out of many. That is a ridiculously anthropocentric view, reminiscent of the view of pre-Copernican astronomers that the sun revolved around the earth.
The environment is the biggest "issue" by far in contemporary politics, and all our other social, economic and cultural issues fit within it. To pursue prosperity without regard for "the environment" is absurdly short-sighted as is becoming very clear from the advance of the maturing trans-discipline of ecological economics. UNecological economics is simply bad economics, and politics without ecological responsibility is just irresponsible politics.
The Green Party if anything, is the party of the future. I wouldn't be surprised if in due course, those parties that still deny the primacy and centrality of concerns about the health and integrity of the natural environment in public life, become extinct. And if they don't; I rather fear, it will be the human race that ultimately faces extinction as a result.
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
Excellent discussion - I'd like to add...
Coyote, always a pleasure to read your thoughts; and, Samuidave and Stewart McKenzie, I am also heartened by much of what you have contributed.
I would now like to comment upon this comment by Stewart McKenzie: "And the MSM gives them disproportionate and misleading coverage..."
It has been my belief since first watching Citizen Kane 4.5 decades ago that the greatest threat to democracy and fairness to people and other living beings on the planet comes from the control of the MSM by any one sub-group. Be it The Vancouver Sun, Global TV, Russia's Prada, China's Xinhua or the full-tilt, in-your-face Fox News, all present the news decided upon by the various owners/ruling elites.
They decide what is important. A case in point, one of our national news outlets (CTV, Global or CBC) decided this morning that it was important to fill the national consciousness with the image (showed it twice just in case we missed it the first time) of a US quarterback wiping his boogers on the coat of a team-mate. I fully realize that I am now guilty of wasting you good readers' time with belabouring the point, but I pray it is for a higher cause. Rhetorically I ask, Why do we let them fill our heads with this sort of thing? We know the answer: they are just about the only game in town.
With castration of the CBC having been made complete through Peter Mansbridge's trip to last year's Bilderberg conference, all major Radio, TV and Print media seem fully in the control of the agenda of the very wealthy. Here are a few ways for working folks to beat them at their own game:
1) Engage in as many online blogs/online newspaper discussions and public forums as possible;
2) Boycott all products advertized through MSM;
3) Initiating lawsuits against governments/politicians/businesses that lie to and manipulate the public. Civil action is a powerful method that business employs to force their foes to change their motus operandi. It is time the working people banded together and used the courts to get the remedies they deserve.
Continued:
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
...continued
If those and other tactics fail to produce positive results, the working people will eventually do as Coyote says: follow their own conscience and not the conscience of the ruling elite. The working folks of the world are going to oneday realize that they are bit players in a grand international ponzi scheme with successive generations of working minions continually granting control and ownership of resources/capital into the hands of fewer and fewer people. The law of the conservation of matter tells us that eventually there will be so little capital left for the workers to share that they will have to revolt in order to survive. They will not believe that someone is worthy of having wealth because his great-grandfather was wealthy.
Before our resources are descimated (like in Poland and West Virginia) it is time that the people of BC demand that natural resources not leave the province without a good deal of value added. After all, the highest cost of manufacturing is energy - either by humans or machines.
As BC is a net exporter of energy (coal, gas, hydro) we should be thinking about using that energy for our advantage: building infrastructure and employing people to add value to raw materials with the energy that we have been exporting. It's time for us to give up eating internationally owned and prepared fast food in favour of cooking at home - this includes processing our own fish, and turning our beef and chicken into pre-cooked, pre-packaged frozen foods and soups, etc.; our wood into lumber and furniture; and our metals into engines, wire and equipment. We should be manufacturing our own logging & mining equipment and trucks that we use to decimate our forests and mountains.
We could be reaching full employment, keeping high-paying manufacturing jobs in the province while shipping less of our energy away and feeding our own people. BC with its vast forests, ample minerals plentiful water and low population doesn't need the world, it needs us. It needs us to be careful about using these resources.
samuidave (not verified)
2 years ago
I think we already know this, SharingIsGood
The working folks of the world are going to oneday realize that they are bit players in a grand international ponzi scheme with successive generations of working minions continually granting control and ownership of resources/capital into the hands of fewer and fewer people.
... but we have no collective understanding of statism. On one hand we have the working class who, vastly outnumbering the remainder, tilt democracy in their favour; on the other hand we have the elite controlling class, themselves vastly outnumbered, protecting their wealth through the state.
It is important to always remember that the state. by definition, is distinguished from all other entities by its monopoly on the lawful use of force (as it defines it).
And when assessing our circumstances, it is critically important to recall the three forms of power over people: armaments, wealth and propaganda,
The state coerces our compliant behaviour on virtually all matters whether we recognize it or not. It incessantly propagandizes the idea that we are important players who matter. (And we are and do, but not for the reasons we credulously believe.) While I personally know there are politicians who do care, history provides ample proof that the state does not.
The state is in place to keep the wealthy securely in place. The wealthy, for their own protection, make sure they keep the state in place. Together they retain control over all others. This collusive marriage between the state and the wealthy is in both their individual and collective interests. It is the perfect example of the application of Nash's Equilibrium.
The state is a criminal organization by any objective test. Its conduct, when judged by the same standard it imposes on the people, falls woefully short of humane. (eg, we can't put a farmer into a costume and demand he needlessly murder another to keep our own jobs.) And if we do not comply with its demands, 'criminal' or otherwise, we soon realize they always have a gun in the room.
Once one has some clarity on the political game of statism that has been going on, he cannot help but realize his participation by voting -- asking for a new driver of the state van -- is, in fact, what keeps us enslaved to the state. Our vote sanctions this state-elite criminal cartel.
Yet despite knowing they have control of all the guns, the wealth and virtually all the information we are feed, we still believe that the state is there for the people. I suppose one could argue it is, provided the people do what they are told.
Remove the authorized use of force against the citizenry, which we currently endorse with the vote, and the state as we know it crumbles. Unfortunately, we'd rather pretend there is no gun and, accordingly, that we are free.
samuidave (not verified)
2 years ago
A good illustration, in part, of what I am discussing above
http://www.alternet.org/story/149525/the_plutocrats_are_living_it_up%3A_larry_summers%27_gilded_path_to_money_and_power_?page=entire
Jerry Munro
2 years ago
The Arrangement of the Vehicles of Power...
Good points from many here, including of course, sharing is good. I would only tend to agree "some" more with samuidave re his observation on the importance, to ruling class dominance, of control of the state. They ever decry the state, because it does have a double edged sword aspect... in "the wrong hands" to their perception. It takes second place only to their ownership and control of the economy.
Within this context, I think it is clear, ownership and control of "the media", the means of information and opinion shaping, then becomes most important. In our time, here following the collapse of the brief Social Democratic State of Capitalism period, where there was somewhat of a measure of "arm's length", independence of the CBC, that has since changed. Since the movement away of postwar II ruling class support for "some" Social Democratic State measures in the 70s, this even has changed. All media now within Canada tends to speak with one voice, and that voice is more and more aligned with and mimics CNN even.
This has been another valuable discussion, my friends. What influence it will have beyond our circle is difficult to know, but.... again, hope springs eternal. :-)
freebear
2 years ago
All good points that appear to confirm
we are f*&cked!
Stewart MacKenzie
2 years ago
John Taylor Gatto
I suggest reading Gatto's "Dumbing Us Down" or the new "Weapons of Mass Instruction" to understand better how we have been, and are being, programmed and conditioned rather than educated, in our public and private school systems.
The most progressive thing I can suggest is to remove your children from these mass brainwash factories, or never send them there in the first place. Several million home learners in the US and Canada are demonstrating how unnecessary and even detrimental school is to anyone wanting a real education!
samuidave (not verified)
2 years ago
All in good time, freebear, all in good time
freebear ~ All good points that appear to confirm we are f*&cked!
Well, aside from the potentially catastrophic outcome of nuclear war or ecological collapse forcing a reconstruction, we mustn't lose sight of Canada being a very young country. It's never really fought for its place, other than riding on the coattails of Empire. It's kept up a pretty 'good' attack on destroying or assimilating the indigenous peoples on this land, I suppose, but that is nothing noble.
In short, it is still very much a coddled and naive country, and this is reflected in its citizenry. Look around on this forum. There are self-proclaimed socialists here who cannot wrap their heads around democratic principles. There are others who think Adrian Dix is super left-wing. We have no perspective for plenty of reasons, but the worst reason is we have never truly wanted.
Few sum it up better than Emma Goldman:
Look to Venezuela and Chavez; or Bolivia and Morales, or most any South American country now. The media is totally against these populist leaders, but the people have insisted on grassroots people acting for them.
Democracy is alive in South America, but not here. It is stomped into the ground here by the neo-con forces but, perhaps more importantly, also by the 'left-wing' troop. These intentionally mislead folks truly think they can get into bed with the capitalist profiteers and the Party machine without suffering the inevitable consequences.
Change is not coming until we change how we interpret things around us. So far the results prove we are not learning. But we are able to change, and that is hope. Life is not predetermined despite how the folks currently in power carry on without an ethical compass. :)
Here's proof of just how fast things happen when the people unite behind a just cause. It is a documentary made a couple years back by Oliver Stone:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/south-of-the-border/
lynn
2 years ago
Some really great posts
Some really great posts, samuidave, that bear repeating:
This one from Orwell that you included:
Quote:
"Meanwhile the workers must cling to every scrap of what they have won; if they yield anything to the semi-boureois Government they can depend upon being cheated. The workers' militias and police forces must be preserved in their present form and every effort to "boureoisify" them must be resisted. If the workers do not control the armed forces, the armed forces will control the workers. The war and the revolution are inseparable.''
And this one of yours:
Quote:
"It is important to always remember that the state. by definition, is distinguished from all other entities by its monopoly on the lawful use of force (as it defines it).
And when assessing our circumstances, it is critically important to recall the three forms of power over people: armaments, wealth and propaganda,"
The challenge is how to reclaim these three critical aspects (protective forces, economy, and news media ) to work for the good of the people rather than against us.