What the hell is going on?

“Each and every MLA will be held accountable?” You have to be kidding me?

Would it be too much to ask where this demand for accountability has been with respect to the shenanigans that resulted in the Moe debacle? Or how about some accountability as an opposition? Or at the very least demanding similar accountability from a Government gone wild?

“Interested onlookers from the labour movement?” will be in attendance of the emergency meeting because dissidents are ” Not challenging just Carole but the Party?”

These guys have officially gone over the top and it is this sort of reaction that ” puts the history of the party ” on the table. Nothing any longstanding, well-meaning MLA’s like Jenny can and/or have done equals the destructive nature of this top down throttling of duly elected politicians whose job it is to voice the concerns of members and constituents alike.

This is a slow motion train wreck on a journey through a world of hurt.

Schreck needs to be dialed back and told to stand in the corner and the pitbulls unleashed need to be muzzled.

Selfish, childish, grow up and worse are not words of reasoned discourse from veteran party representatives interested in resolving serious outstanding issues.

Its a continuation of school yard bully tactics.

If Jim, Steel and CUPE want their own party tell them to register one and call it labour in the meantime may we have our party back please?

Do you honestly think MLA’s are going to show up to a meeting already defined as a time to ” make each and everyone of them accountable for their behaviour?” What is it a freakin’ after labour school detention with Sinclair giving them “lines” as we used to call them in grade school?

I am shocked and appauled with the ludicrous management of our party and the insistance that it is no fault of the leadership while discrediting the very legitimate issues being raised.

Are these guys really that out of touch? Every message board in the blogosphere is lit up in favour of Jenny and a democratic exercise to rejevunate the party yet all these guys can muster is demanding obedience to the pathetic display of “democracy” dictated by the last Provincial Council meeting?

117 votes is democracy in action in a party with over 10,000 members? ( or lets hope over 10,000 which would be the least amount of members we have had in sometime if not ever).

This is serious business and the more the inner circle digs their heels in and circles the wagons the more they kickstart a new party.

It s not just Carole but the Party the dissonance is challenging, eh? Well I got news for you guys. It s not just "amateur selfish, childish" dissidents the labour leadership is challenging. No, it is a Province full of angry voters demanding a responsible alternative not beholden to bold, out-of-touch interest groups with their head in the sand and their hand in the cookie jar.

Tenacity

"James said she considered quitting. "The easy decision right now would be to step out," she said. "I have never taken the easy route. The people of British Columbia are counting on us."

One thing. You have to admire her tenacity!

84% support ......

means nothing Carole read this :
http://thetyee.ca/CanadianPress/2010/11/04/Campbell-Resignation-5031323/print.html

....."VANCOUVER - The contrast couldn't be more stark: B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell received an 84 per cent approval rating from his own party just as his popularity among the public sank into the single digits."

You can't win Carole , your best time was in 2009 and You lost .
Who is going to VOTE YOU IN not me, and sorry i can't find any one around me to vote for You .
Because of YOU Campbell get in 3 time and now You are working hard to get Liberals for 4 term in Vitoria . Sheme on You

Krzysztof D

She needs to step down.

For the good of the party.

And for the good citizens of the province who want to have a realistic alternative to the Liberals.

Inevitable

Man, I wish it didn't come to this... but who didn't see it coming?

The NDP has been silent and weak on so many serious issues and now they've omitted and fumbled their way into oblivion. I couldn't work for them after they back-pedaled on IPP's, and now look what this and other failures have led to.

And all that said, how can a leader not catch such dissent quietly and effectively before it blows up this way? Was this public meltdown the only option, and is it the rebel MLA's fault entirely? How would a real leader be blindsided this way and handle this so clumsily? Is Carole and the clique that supports her so out of touch?

Ahhh questions. I'm glad I'm not in the party anymore, because, I agree, one must support one's leader and the direction of the party if you're a member, and I, like the public at large, see a vacuum of ideas and initiative in the once proud NDP. I've got to give kudos to Jenny Kwan for taking a stand, because unlike Simpson, she knows it means her ejection... her act represents a public letter of resignation, and she gave the party fair warning so if they could not placate her then it's not her fault. Democracy, baby!

Fundamentally, this shit sucks. Whatever untainted aspirant takes the reins of the current or next big business party would have a swell time with this opposition, and that means more initiatives, more recalls, more radical politics, and more work for me and people like me who actually give a shit about this province and know that time is of the essence. Christ the Lord what next?

The NDP is Kaput!

Good article. Nice summation of some of the theatrics. And "whatthe" is right on in the response to the delusional out-of-this-world spin from James and Shreck. Whats next? Hired union goons to "kneecap" the dissidents unless they sign confessions of their disloyalty to "Dear Leader", who now rules by divine insight that she is singularly destined to be leader of the NDP?

Why is there any mention of union reps at this meeting? I thought that Carole had supposedly taken the unions out from running the NDP? Another way that the public is being mislead about the inner workings of the NDP?

Really, seeing this response from the James Gang, I certainly am left with the feeling of "who cares" what happens to the NDP. If Carole James runs again, it will all be a signal that the NDP remains a party that is run by a an elite who have no respect for the BC public, the party membership or the MLAs who are supposed to be representing the people in their ridings.

I don't know if all of those MLAs standing beside Carole feel are doing this under blind loyalty, honest devotion, or fear for their future in the party - but one thing...

If they bothered to listen to their constituents, they would know that almost all the people who want the Liberals out are also saying that they don't want to vote for an NDP run by Carole James.

Pandora is out of the box

Once something like this happens, it's impossible to put pandora back in the box. Just ask the LIEberals. In my opinion, deal with it through a democratice vote and live with the results. Public bickering just shows the public that there are problems in the party and they are unable to resolve the differences. To quote Nike "just do it", then it's done with.

Work it out now

14 supportive, 13 opposed and the rest sitting on the fence is not a majority. There is a crisis. It needs to be settled by a leadership review before whoever the new Premier is can take advantage of NDP weakness by calling an election.

Case 1: Carole James wins. She is strengthened and the party is strengthened in the eyes of the electorate.

Case 2: Carole James loses. A new leader answers the call and the party is strengthened in the eyes of the electorate.

The party only loses in Case 3: James stands on the letter of party policy and refuses to submit to a leadership review. The electorate sees a divided caucus and an autocratic leader.

Ms. James, if the 13 don't represent a major force in the party, prove it. If they do, step down. Either way show the electorate that you are different from Campbell. Don't let his successor represent more of a change than you.

Breaking Up Is Hard To Do?

Seems like Jenny Kwan can take on the BC Liberals and even though her views have shaken the NDP to it's core all I can think of "It's damm well about time!". I am tired of seeing this as many other voters are as well. We can vote for the Greens or an independent. I feel insulted by the NDP and Ms James's leadership (at this point the NDP is amok in my opinion). To me this is the same arrogance as Campbell and Co are giving us. Sadly if the NDP will not adapt and grow up then this party will lose the next election. Time will tell I suppose but like anything time on this issue will not last forever.

You've really blown it this time

Why didn't you use your Tenacity to hold the Liberals accountable for their many atrosities?

You stood silent and gave the Liberals free reign to rape and pillage our province, and now your going to hold your MLA's accountable for their behaviour?

The NDP is shattered and lies in ruins at your feet, the only way to move forwrad is to submit to a leadership convention, the sooner the better.

The real question is:

Why do we only have 10,000 members when the Lieberals are completely self-destructing? Approx. 1 1/2 million people voted last election, right? How can anyone say the party is being rebuilt when the membership is NOT growing and we are being told the only reason our bills are being paid is because of dead members. Don't say it's because people aren't joining organizations. Nearly 140,000 joined Tieleman's FB group against the HST. The Lieberals have approx. 80,000 members. People aren't joining "this" organization.

Why would a leader allow the situation to deteriorate so badly that this is playing out in public and appears to be insurmountable, and possibly, the end of the NDP as we know it?

Under those circumstances and the fact that voters all over the province are still telling us (after two elections) they won't support Carole as Premier, why would she stay? Is the idea to keep someone as leader, or is the idea to actually win elections? 120 say stay; hundreds of thousands say go. WTH is so difficult to understand about that?

Carole's right. This isn't about her. It's about what's good for the party. In my opinion, she needs to stop making it about her.

Carol GO NOW

Carol still has the tire marks on her face from being run over in the last election and people like David Schreck still don't get it.

Its the voters who don't like Carol! Who in hell cares about a group of brown nosers that are caught in the shade of Carol's ass and can't or don't want to see what is really happening to the NDP.

The NDP in my riding are sheading members like fall leaves and the donations have dried up.

You can't fight an election with no members and no money and even if the unions throw in some chump change to the mix the majority of them are too brain dead to vote NDP anyway.

Resign Carol and go out looking like you care about the party instead of screwing around untill nothing is left and the Liberals get a free get out of jail card.

Please go now.

CGHZD

Carole needs to resign

Very sad to see her clinging on to power and taking the party down with her.

@whatthe: great post! Carole James holding elected MLAs accountable with her non-elected inner circle? wtf?

Just to note the obvious, it's the voters in this province who don't like Carole James and who won't vote NDP or just sit at home. The opinions of the NDP party elite are not the fundamental concern here.

Robin Austin, one of the

Robin Austin, one of the dissident MLAs is saying that his constituents are telling him to demand a leadership review. This is true because I am one of his constituents and I have voiced disapproval of Carol James to him. I am glad to see that he is listening to me.

I have spent almost 40 years supporting, and campaigning for the NDP candidates, including Robin Austin. as long as I feel that he is listening to me, I will continue to support him. If that ends up meaning I am supporting an independant rather than a NDP candidate I will feel very bad, but will support and work for the candidate that is listening to me.

Carol could have come up with a compromise up to a couple of days ago, but if her intransigence continues, my support for the NDP will be gone. Not support for my local member, but for the NDP as a whole.

David Schreck is an

David Schreck is an economist.

Has anybody known an economist who could predict the time of day tomorrow at 2 pm?

Or why it will be 2 pm today, or was yesterday ?

Carole could have made a dignified exit as a winner, but she blew it.

At the same time, this could be the best thing that could have happened to the NDP as it will open the doors for fresh wind to blow out the pollution caused by incompetents.

The Liberals only have to please, and be answerable to their owners, the corporate mafia, but the NDP has to be responsible to humanity and the ecology.

Something the present leadership has forgotten and must be kicked back into following.

Ed Deak.

I can just imagine

the voter turnout at the next election will be an all-time low!

Politicians are never accountable unless they are taking credit for something!

The difficulty at play

I keep hearing the refrain from James loyalists that the "easy thing would be to simply step down and give up fighting." Wrong, the most difficult thing to do is exactly that because it requires courage of convictions rather than ego. A true party person, with a utilitarian outlook, would see that when the party is crumbling before her very eyes, the best thing to do is to get out of the way and let the party regroup. She can seek a fresh mandate and let the chips fall where they may.

Ms. James has two choices. She can step down before election night, or on election night. The choice is hers. The former choice is the more difficult one, and I hope she eventually sees that.

What makes you think losing

What makes you think losing another election would convince James to step down?

i think this is just a show....

i think this is all just be a show, a charade, posturing, politics..whatever you want to call it.
she IS gone. this IS over.
at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, Carole James' leadership is effectively over. there was an air of defeat yesterday at the end of the press conference. the sad smattering of applause said it all.
seeing who stood behind her at this press conference yesterday is what is interesting.

I agree completely with whatthe's comments.

This is over for Carole James. The sad thing is she has not figured it out yet. She could have gone gracefully but now she'll just go. It is either the end for her or the beginning of the end of her and the NNDP.

The most interesting part

The most interesting part were the faces of the people, like Farnworth, who stood behind her. Embarrassment all over.

It is going to be a very interesting caucus meeting this weekend.

Ed Deak.

The Liberals couldn't have scripted this better or did they?

This is so bizarre it looks like an inside job. We very well could see the demise of the NDP this weekend if James continues with this tack. Surely she is smarter than that! If it wasn't for the fact this will lead to the return of the Liberal corporate criminals I would consider it a good thing... An opportunity to form a real socialist party!

James and The Italian Flag Principle

Headlines across BC picture Carole James as on the horns of a dilemma. Should she stay or should she go? The same 'ol two sided logic that traps us so often. There is another logic that is right now making huge inroads into the fuzzy zone of unknowns. It's called The Italian Flag model, (IF), is a representation of three-valued logic in which evidence for a proposition is represented as green, evidence against is represented as red, and residual uncertainty is represented as white. The white area reflects uncommitted belief, which can be associated with uncertainty in evidence or unknowns, both known and unknown.

The term unknown unknown refers to circumstances or outcomes that were not conceived of by an observer at a given point in time. The meaning of the term becomes more clear when it is contrasted with the known unknown, which refers to circumstances or outcomes that are known to be possible, but it is unknown whether or not they will be realized. The term is used in project planning and decision analysis to explain that any model of the future can only be informed by information that is currently available to the observer and, as such, faces substantial limitations and unknown risk. - Wikipedia

That's where Carole sits, not on the horns of a go-stay dilemma, but in the white zone of uncertainty. Like all difficult choices, there are the arguments for and against each choice and the unknowns floating around in between. When looked at through the IF lens it seems that any conclusion to Carole's situation, like all situations that require a conclusion, can never be 100% certain. Certainty and logic, certainty and science, are strangers. Certainty has no unknown-unknowns, no IF to consider.

Applying the IF model to Carole's situation it appears she has a fairly equal number of supporters and non-supporters among elected NDP incumbents and roughly the same number of uncommitted members of caucus. Neither 'stay' or 'go' can produce the near unanimity Carole, or any party leader, needs. The third choice, open the leadership race tomorrow, offers Carole, or whoever wins, the opportunity, after hearing the uncertain member's admonitions, to include all the known and knowable-unknown voices and thereby minimize the uncertainty, white part of the IF, to only the always present unknown-unknowns. Carole could well be the best choice, let's see.

Who is it about then?

Carole still claims that this is not about her!

Is she blind and dumb?

Kwan: Intellectual Lightweight

It's amusing to see Kwan portrayed as an icon - as a hero of the bleak 2001-2005 siege in Victoria.

The reality, of course, is that Kwan was nothing more than an aide to Joy MacPhail ... a warm body who showed up and did what she was told by a smarter, wiser MacPhail. The reality is that Kwan holds the safest NDP riding in the province, and that is the only reason that she has seniority in caucus.

Her attack on James reveals a stunning lack of strategic skill and an inability (or unwillingness) to foresee predictable consequences. She didn't just trash Carole James - she handed the Faux Liberals a fourth term in office and threw her party into chaos.

Anyone who thinks that the Kwan Gang will be satisfied with a new leader - who will undoubtedly come from the James side of caucus - is naive in the extreme. They have demonstrated that they are not prepared to work as part of a bigger team and are willing to break their toys rather than share them with others.

Another four years of economic and social destruction at the hands of the Faux Liberals, brought to you by Jenny Kwan and her band of no-name whiners.

Tangler....Do you really

Tangler....Do you really think that CJ had a hope in hell of winning against a new Lib leader?

Their owners be threatening and blackmailing BC for reelection, or else they're going to wreck the province, with powers given to them by the present governments and university economics departments.

All we could hear from CJ were promises for more profits and "competitiveness" .

No idea who the new NDP leader could, or would be, but the only thing we can hope for is that he, or she'll fight against the total sellout of BC, win or lose.

And if lose, then make a new corporate pimp government shake in their pants, until the people kick them out and demand democracy, independence and self sufficiency, in one of the richest areas of the world.

Sick and tired of the present bootlicking of legalized criminals.

Ed Deak.

Bill Tieleman's Canard

Bill seeks to equate the electoral votes MLAs receive as extraordinary authority within the Party. They are two different domains. That's why MLAs are able to speak at Provincial Council, but not vote. Provincial Council delegates and Executive members - with authority obtained through votes of members at Convention and riding association AGMs - vote at Provincial Council. MLAs get one vote, like any other member, throughout the system. MLAs may be kings and queens over in Victoria, but in the Party they are only equal.

Power and stupidity

It seems that almosy every time a person gets some amount of power, he or she gets inversely more stupid.

I am sure Carol is a very worthwhile human being, but she obviously hasn't figured out that being a leader is not the same as being a shrill harpy.

The first comment here, by crh, said: "Why can't today's politician ever figure out that their master is us, the voter, not themselves or their money man or their confidante."

Politicians HAVE figured that out. The vast majority of voters are too disinterested to
get involved. Which is just another form of stupidity.

The Tommy Douglases among us must walk a fine line and are usually pushed over the edge by something quite like hubris.

Wish I had caught the whole show..

but the snippets in the news of the "show of solidarity" were rather telling. There did seem to be a strange look on some of the faces. Was it embarrassment that the MLAs knew what their constituents were probably thinking watching them being used as "props" for Carole? They should be embarrassed if they care what their constituents are thinking.

I have known some of these MLAs and I know that they are not dumb. Politics can be a rather nasty game and the internal politics of the NDP is never pretty. But I hear Farnworth saying that what is important is winning the next election. Surely, Mike you've got to know what your constituents think of Carole James leadership? Same goes for Sue Hammel and Bruce Ralston in Surrey.

I know there is something to be said for loyalty and "caucus solidarity" but there does come a time when you have to set your eyes on the future and cut the rope on the snag thats dragging the NDP's boat under?

Many of the MLAs in the NDP do have good communications skills and I find them to be good at answering questions and conveying positions and concerns clearly about important issues facing the government and people of BC. Carole James, does not. She is like a doll with a string that says that same repetitive garbled blah-blah-blah every time she is asked to comment on any issue. The people of the province have stopped listening to her long ago.

And yet she auditiously claimed yesterday that she "is the best person to lead the NDP". Seriously. Dawn Black said that the dissidents are living in some sort of parallel universe. What universe is Carole James living in?

What's Next

The caucus' decision will not be easy. Essentially because we expect them to be the 'deciders'.
If a minority of caucus and a minority of Provincial Council are shown to be able to impose their will over the rest, it will make running for the NDP leadership a real crap-shoot. If it can be done to one leader, it can be done to another.
Some posters have left the impression that Prov Council members are simply 100 + individuals acting on their own. Actually, they take their cues from their constituency associations. If 84% of them are ignored, who in their right mind will stand for such positions.

Civics for MLAs

Prof. Paul Ramsey gives a civics lesson for petulant MLAs at
Public Eye Online

Words of wisdom from someone who has been through several political battles and knows the value of standing and fighting together, and the destruction caused when petulant minorities act out.

Reality for MLAs

Resigning from caucus may be the honourable thing to do in the case of an intractable difference of opinion with the leader or others, but what are the practical consequences of 13 MLAs leaving caucus en masse? A week or so ago I suggested Jenny and others do that, but only in the event that their concerns were not addressed.

This genie is not going back in the bottle, and the resignation or firing of the bakers dozen won't change anything. Sooner or later the leadership review *must* happen.

MLAs

Jenny Kwan should follow the same advice many here say James should follow. She should resign her seat and if she chooses try to win it back in a by-election running against the NDP and Liberals.

Then at least she could say she has the support of her constituency.

Remember 1986 people!

I'm glad Vaughn Palmer's article today brought up the 1986 attempted party coup against Bob Skelly and how Rosemary Brown later regretted it and admitted that tearing a party apart before an election is not a good idea.

Wonder if Carole would get hers back

if she resigned her seat and ran in a by-election?

The party will not be "strengthened" in any case.

"gotchan: Case 2: Carole James loses. A new leader answers the call and the party is strengthened in the eyes of the electorate."

Are you kidding?? You really think forcing Carole James to walk the plank in a bloody open family feud and then replacing her with one of the very same Rebel Leaders is going to suddenly restore public confidence in the NDP?

Mark my words once Christy Clark or Kevin Falcon win the Liberal leadership, the NDP's fortunes are toast anyway. People don't trust the NDP with their tax dollars and a new Liberal leader will soon restore public trust. I don't like it, but it's true.

she must go

The fact is Carol James has done nothing at all but wait for the inevitable, that of Gordon Campbell's fall from public grace (something even a idiot could have predicted!). She has done nothing in opposition. She Has never presented any kind of vision what-so-ever and under her "leadership" has made the NDP an invisible party and all the while Campbell and the Liberals have given her much to oppose and she has done nothing. She lost the last election! My belief is that the Liberals will win the next election and finally the NDP will come to the conclusion that James must go but by that time the party will no longer be relevant and we will probably have a third political party in BC.

The fact is a also this: Jenny Kwan is correct in what she says and the NDP needs to pay attention and do something. But that won't happen. The Liberals, I'm sure, can't believe their good fortune!

Reality Show Time: BC NDP unelectable

At this point whether one agrees or disagrees with CJ and her supporters or with the other side is largely irrelevant. In the eyes of the voting public serious damage has been already been done. I just cannot see the electorate having the confidence in the governing ability of a seriously compromised leader and moreover a seriously fractured caucus and party - it just ain't on. Can the party be restored, reinvigorated, unified, can its debts be paid off, can large numbers of people be inspired to become members and make donations -in time for the next election? The decision by CJ to hold every MLA accountable to the party is the wrong decision. If the desired outcome is to heal and rebuild the party, the foremost question that has to be answered, what are the realistic short and long term steps that can accomplish that goal -given the inescapable reality of the conflict-ridden situation and the party's misfortunes - that IMO is the reality show leadership question that needs to be addressed, including whether CJ is the best person to lead that endeavor.

The 1986 Election and Skelly's leadership

I remember it quite well as I had been working for Vickers. The leadership convention was wonderful theatrics, highlighted by that dramatic parade lead by a fuming, eyes bulging King as he was forced into the humiliating position of throwing his support behind Bob Skelly. (They had made a backroom deal to support the leading candidate to prevent a Vicker's victory).

I had completely forgotten about the attempted coup against Skelly. Maybe it wasn't such big news back then. What I do remember in very, very clear detail is the night the election was called. The trembling Skelly had great difficulty in responding to the election call on TV and this was broadcast over and over on BCTV. It does go to show the key importance of any leader having good communication skills.

I felt sorry for Bob that his weakness of nervousness was exploited so mercilessly by the media of the time. No doubt the media will exploit the caucus divisions of the NDP in the upcoming election.

But the reality is that Carole is already the Liberal's greatest asset as the you can see with all the usual suspects (Palmer, Baldrey, Mason, etc), running to her defense. Yes, the next election could easily be a repeat of the 1986 election.

James' Platform include writing a poverty reduction plan?

Sorry Ms. James, writing the plan is something you need to do now, not after you get elected, if you're around when the next election campaign starts.

Poor children in this province deserve more than a promise to write a plan to help them. Why hasn't the NDP already written this plan and presented it to the people as a better way of doing things? If you want our support, you have to convince us you know how to lead. To do that, you have to show us what ACTION you are going to take IMMEDIATELY to address this crisis. One quarter of all children in this province are waiting to hear what you and your party are going to do to help them. They are not waiting for you to sharpen your pencil.

Musing about an intention to draft a plan if you get elected shows a lack of engagement and genuine concern with the severity of the issue.

While I am a social democrat and agree with most of the philosophical principles that should be guiding the BC NDP, I am not a member of your party. Can you guess why?

It is not enough for a leader to sit idly by while her incompetent counterpart in government stumbles off into retirement. You have to offer a viable alternative.

I'm with Jenny.

The Numbers Don't Jive

Two weeks ago 84% of the delegates to the NDP meeting in Victoria voted to support Carole James. These are the rank and file members of all constituencies across the Province. That includes all of the ridings held by NDP MLA's. Remember the number - 84%. These are the people who worked their tails off to get their respective MLA's elected.
And yet, 40% of the NDP's MLAs are in revolt against Carole James leadership.
The numbers don't jive. Are these MLA's not accountable to the constituecies? Are they too selfish to discuss their concerns with the people who got them elected.
I see some real selfishness here.
The numbers don't jive.

Corkys take

http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/005565.html#more

Council always supports the status quo

"Two weeks ago 84% of the delegates to the NDP meeting in Victoria voted to support Carole James. These are the rank and file members of all constituencies across the Province."

Actually these are not the rank and file members of which there are around 10000, they are the hundred or so Provincial council members.
Provincial council has always been more supportive of the status quo than the membership, which is why controversial resolutions have often been timed to be debated at convention rather than at Council. The Kemano 2 resolution at the 1994 convention is a prime example - it would never even have come to the floor if party brass had had their way, would likely have been defeated at provincial council level, but passed unanimously, and unopposed, at convention.

Those who are paid for their NDP participation by unions or labour councils, are independently wealthy 0r retired are much more able to spend the time required for attendance and especially travel to meetings. this gives them a big advantage over unpaid volunteers. I know what it costs a family to send someone to meetings 400 miles from home several times a year, but for those with wage replacement and all expenses paid it is just another day's work.

I am told our local representative has gone to meetings and voted against the instructions of the local constituency executive, (and has now been replaced as a result). If this could happen here it could have happened elsewhere as the elitists have always felt they should not be bound by the will of the general membership.

i never thought i would say it...

but james should listen to scampbell. in his resignation he admitted that the public debate had become too focused on himself.
she claims that SHE is not really what this is all about and THAT should be a tip off to all new democrats. not all of us are lining up for the koolaid and not all of us like to be spanked and scolded.
it is all starting to remind me of a dan murphy cartoon in the province years ago about the last days of the vanderzalm regime. the caption was, 'the vanderzalm doll, wind it up and it clings to power.'

The Wall

Gordo saw the writing on the wall.

Carole can't even see the wall.

falcon53, I remember too....

"What I do remember in very, very clear detail is the night the election was called."

....I remember his unforgivable reference to the Zalm's ethnicity. Although it might have been made in moment of nervousness, and without malicious intent, it was utterly unrecoverable.

Some people should never be elected as leaders, and they lack the ability to think under pressure.

"Fundamentally, this shit sucks."

Got that right, Ricky.

Of all the thousands of words written in the comments to this point, only one post has mentioned an actual political policy...that of the Blackbird. How surreal does it get...we are discussing politics without discussing er, politics?

Child poverty. Terrible unemployment, way beyond the 'official figures'. People who can't make ends meet even working full-time. Local business failing. Homeless wandering the streets. These are the issues screaming to be addressed in my community, what about yours? Whether Jenny agrees with Carole or not is an irrelevancy of the highest order, because if they don't work together at some level there will be no progress. One could substitute any names for those two, by the way.

That is how irrelevant personalities are.

@ Fiat Lux

Ed wrote: "Tangler....Do you really think that CJ had a hope in hell of winning against a new Lib leader?"

What I think is that the NDP had a chance to form the next government before Kwan opened her incoherent mouth, and now has none whatsoever. Personally, I would choose a possible win over a certain loss any day.

So is that what Jenny Kwan - brilliant political strategist that she is - had in mind? To remove any possibility of an NDP win (or at least a Liberal minority) and ensure a loss ... perhaps a devastating loss? Was that the plan?

We could argue all day over whether James is a good leader or a bad leader, and whether she could lead a winning team in the next election. Those are matters of speculation and opinion. But I don't believe there can be any debate now that the NDP will not win, regardless of who the leader turns out to be.

There are bad times and better times for a party to go through a major upheaval. Kwan could not have picked a worse time ... unless she had launched her assault DURING an election.

deeby, Oh, I had forgotten about that joke.

I am thinking you are referring to a joke that was in very poor taste, something about "tulip bulbs". One thing I must say about VanderZalm, he was a very big enthusiast of gardening and that probably was a very good thing. Skelly's comment backfired amongst the many people who were dutch, had dutch friends, or those who love tulips or empathize with the trials of those who suffer adversity.

confidence

Carole James has obviously lost the confidence of a sizable portion of her caucus, and should call for a leadership convention.

Tangler.... CJ had no more

Tangler.... CJ had no more hope to win against a new Lib. leader than anybody.

I've warned her in July in person, and in writing, that there's a great upheaval against her behind the scenes, that the party is badly divided and could break up.

She agreed with everything, seemed to know all the reasons and answers, but done nothing.

If somebody shouts that your house is on fire, you wouldn't carry on with the choosing of the new wallpaper for the bathroom, but do something.

The firing of Bob Simpson and Sihota's secret salary have shown that she doesn't have the qualities to lead and has become a hysterical ego maniac.

She'll resign, or be forced to resign, by the same people who have been standing behind her with their silly yellow scarves.

As an old and long standing NDP member I want the party to win, but as an even older and longer analyst I know that the present leadership have blown it.

At the same, this can and has to be the time for thorough housecleaning and reinventing ourselves.

Ed Deak.

History turning on a dime...

Wow!

Carole, too bad, but either you are toast, or the NDP is.

But this is amazing for the speed at which it has taken off.

That said, let's keep in touch folks, whatever happens here.

Vivian

"Whether Jenny agrees with Carole or not is an irrelevancy of the highest order, because if they don't work together at some level there will be no progress. ,,,"

It looks like the Council Elite will confirm Carole as leader of the Party. We somehow doubt that Jenny is going to have any cabinet position in the near future. Any raprochement now would be viewed as so profound that it would likely become an academic 'case study' for conflict resolutions.

Back @ Fiat Lux

"Tangler.... CJ had no more hope to win against a new Lib. leader than anybody."

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. But don't you think it's a wee bit self-serving to offer a personal opinion as proof that your basic premise is correct?

As I said, the NDP had a chance to win the next election before the assault by Kwan and her cohorts. How much of a chance is (and will remain) open to debate. But now, the NDP has no chance at all ... and that really isn't debatable (unless you believe that undecided and soft Liberal votes will swing to a party in chaos).

Thanks to Kwan, leadership is no longer the issue. Nobody can lead a team that is engaged in open mutiny, and nobody but the party faithful will vote for them. With 10,000 party faithful, the NDP is slightly short of the votes required to form a majority government.

However, given the fact that the NDP has now forfeited any opportunity to win the next election, I agree that the time for a thorough housecleaning has arrived. That's why Jenny Kwan has to go, along with any of her strong supporters. If that takes the party down to 15 or 20 seats, so be it. A tree will live longer and be more productive if it's pruned regularly (something the Faux Liberals have also failed to learn).

agreed tangler

I agree with tangler. Jenny's supporters won't believe it, but the party

Despite Carole's weaknesses, you can't possibly believe that the party has a better chance of winning now. There is way you can spin it that makes the party in a better chance of winning now.

Yes, Carole was weak, but the Liberals were in such tumult that I don't think people cared.

The only reason I can think of why they would start this rebellion now is:

I think possibly the anti-Carole foes never expected the Liberals to be in such doldrums and therefore never expected that she would be premier. Carole would be the fluffy mouthpiece to take the party from the doldrums back to full strength, but I don't think her foes ever thought she had a chance of being premier, which she did until now.

@Tangler

I agree 100%. Either the malcontents pull in their horns and find a way to work with Carole and the majority, or they have to go. Taking Carole out of the equation doesn't put an end to the attitude of self-entitlement evidenced here.

When a Party goes from 2 to 33 seats in one election, sometimes you drag some bad sh%t in on the coat-tails. Best to shake it off now. The Party will be better for it.

Agreed.

"When a Party goes from 2 to 33 seats in one election, sometimes you drag some bad sh%t in on the coat-tails. Best to shake it off now. The Party will be better for it."

That's why it is time for Carole James to go. Now for the record, (so we don't get into a theoretical discussion about left vs. right) I am neither right nor left nor middle. I take a position based on reality at the time. Her apprenticeship is up and she hasn't passed the test.

She has delayed her departure to the point where she has no voter appeal left.

Now check out this article

http://www.terracedaily.ca/show7407a/AN_OPEN_LETTER_ABOUT_THE_NDP_TROUBLES_FROM_CORKY_EVANS

BC Hydro

If there is one issue that the people of BC hold dear it is that of our water and BC Hydro.
What is Carole James position on Hydro? She could have won on this issue in 2009, but we don't even know where she stands.
We need a Dave Barret, not Miss Nice.
In addition, why should Jenny Kwan be reprimanded for telling the truth?
Carole, you are or part of the problem, move on and take Sihota with you.

"This is not simply about me," she said.

Yes it is, Carole.
You may be able to muzzle the voice of protest within your party by threat of excommunication, but you can't muzzle the voice of public opinion. Will the real leader please stand up?

And three big cheers for Jenny Kwan for having the courage to publicly say what the majority of left leaning voters think. She put her seat and her reputation right on the line; maybe that alone should give her a shot at the leadership.

Dave Barrett?

He lost 3 times, which is more than Carole James. The person he lost to had even less charisma than Campbell and didn't have his brother on the #1 radio station and in the #1 newspaper.

Interest rates were over 15% and people were losing their homes and he still lost.

In fact, the one time he won was because the right-wing vote was split between 3 parties with the Socreds of course being the dominant one.

Just had a phone call from

Just had a phone call from an "insider". According to him/her, there are about 7 members in the caucus who haven't openly declared for either side.

There are some very powerful union etc. elements who are behind Carole and they don't seem to care who is against.

Democracy at work....but we'll see, not necessarily this weekend, but within the next few weeks, which way the ball falls and whether she can be forced on to stay ?

Ed Deak.

Thank You Blackbird and VivianLeaDoubt

Although it seems almost nobody is listening to you, at least you both focus on the more important issue of politics. We can all rail like maddened fleas at the strengths and weaknesses of the personality points of James, Kwan, et al, but it sure as hell doesn't get us anywhere, nor add anything very useful to the discussion.

While we the people are pushed practically to the point of dying in the streets, the politicians are planning retirement parties, and the pundits are arguing meaningless, out of focus and damagingly distracting personality points.

It really begins to make one's eyes roll.

Caucus Meeting?

So the emergency caucus meeting isn't a caucus meeting but a meeting of Moe's funders plus a few elected NDP MLAs. Carole James' problem is that she has not discussed her ideas with her caucus and she has not used the caucus to help push the party's agenda. James has the same problem that Stockwell Day had. James is toast or the NDP is.

"Either the malcontents

".. pull in their horns and find a way to work with Carole and the majority, or they have to go."
And go they will P, leaving you holding the detritus of a once great party.
And I hope it's not lost on everyone that if we had a direct vote by referenda on the major issues which confront us, we wouldn't be so frantically worried about keeping the thieves out or OUR house.

Let's review Carole's "failures" then shall we?

"She has delayed her departure to the point where she has no voter appeal left."

Why was her departure expected? Let's review her "failures", shall we?

*In 2005, she took the party from 2 seats to 33 seats, far more than most pundits expected. Most expected the NDP to rise back up to about 15-22 seats.

*In 2009, the party increased both the number of seats and % of the popular vote.

*Since the 2009 election, she has taken the NDP to hold a steady clear lead over the Liberals in every consistent opinion poll.

Why would any of the above prompt a leader to leave?

I'm just not understanding what dramatic failures have occurred under her leadership?

How much better could she have done? Won the 2009 election? I'm not so sure people would have been ready to vote NDP again no matter who was at the helm.

John G.....Don't forget that

John G.....Don't forget that according to the presently dominating economic theory, those children are starving, because "their parents are not productive".

This is the official line...told me by "conservative" politicians and "economists", in reply to my articles and participation on a number of economic forums, protesting the present crime wave.

According to their warped minds and their distorted quotation of Adam Smith's "invisible hand of self interest" theory, if one sector is permitted steal all the others blind, everybody benefits from the "trickle down", "proven" in their fraudulent GDP figures, that everything is OK.

Of course, Smith never said anything so idiotic in the short paragraph where the words "self interest" and "invisible hand" appear, but we now have a whole system built around this fraud and governments are enforcing it as the holy scriptures of "wealth creating economics".

Ed Deak.

alcm

The Alliance caucus made Stockwell Day walk the plank and a few years later a combined Conservative party became the federal government. Yes, making James walk the plank (or better yet, if she withdrew) would improve the NDP's chances. Some clear policies would also help.

Frank

No matter what you think, reality and the law says that you can only vote for a person. JK was elected not the NDP party. Any MLA or MP can cross the floor whenever they wish since they represent everyone in their riding, not just the people who voted for them. Hopefully, more people will vote and vote for them next time.

re: corky's take

http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/005565.html#more

All that needs to be said, really. Looks like she has much more in common with Campbell at his worst then we thought. She is a cancer.

If you can't fix it, feature it

I think the NDP's best chance for success is to do the exact opposite of the Liberals. Campaign without a leader, and emphasize to the people of BC that they are there to represent the voters in their ridings, not be whipped to toe a party line articulated to reflect a leader's agenda. Put all their energy and $$$ into funding commercials that clearly explain what they'll do, and why, if elected, rather than showcasing an individual. In fact, I would use the next few months, when the province is essentially leaderless, as an example of the fact the roof doesn't cave in just because we don't have someone on hand to shake hands for photo opps with foreign dignitaries. Tell the people that job 1 is gaining a majority and moving forward with policies that reflect a consensus reached through listening to voters. When they (the NDP) get control of the Leg, then they will choose a leader, and they, like a city mayor, will only be one vote among many.

People are so sick of the personality cults and seemingly unending quest to sit in the big chair that characterizes much of BC politics. If you want to actually wield some power, the way to do that is by putting power back in the hands of the voters. The way to do that is by concentrating on winning individual votes. The immense pool of people who figure the new boss won't be any different from the old boss can only be compelled to vote by offering substantive proof that their wishes, not those of a Premier, will take top priority for their MLA.

There's nothing the Liberals would like better than a chance to pit leader against leader, and have voters ignore their record. Why give them the chance?

my $0.02. Worth every penny.

For a Right Winger...:-)

"The Alliance caucus made Stockwell Day walk the plank and a few years later a combined Conservative party became the federal government. Yes, making James walk the plank (or better yet, if she withdrew) would improve the NDP's chances. Some clear policies would also help." Sask Resident.

Especially your concluding comments make this an actually reasonably insightful and objective observation/ bit of analysis, Saskatchewan. Not bad for a right winger.

A very interesting and revealing thread to read, and "more or less" sit on the sidelines and observe with a whiskey and a bowl of popcorn. :-)

I have, by the by, read Corky's observations... the most principled person in the NDP, known to me. I watch and read him, his comings, goings and thoughts with the greatest of interest. Though not always entirely agreeing. (If the NDP splits, I want to be at least "near" where that guy lands, I think... and I know he is an ex-American... But now he is a Canadian, satisfactory to me. :-)

And he "seems" to understand that the "essence" of what is going on here, and I would hope elsewhere in current capitalist society, including the economy, is really and fundamentally about the need for, he would say renewal of "democracy". (I would say "transformation".) He "seems" to indicate so. (It "seems" to go with being in NDPer territory... that everyone is suddenly circumspect and more vague about their positions... at least than I. The advantage perhaps of my not being a "party person":-)lol

I would vote for Jenny Kwan

Because she had the courage to put it all on the line.
And because Carole lost two elections, both of which were hers to win. And because (and I thought I was alone here for a long time) she waffles; making it extremely hard to determine her position on numerous issues.
And because I wrote to the NDP during the last election and told them:
1. That they had to attack on the Salmon issue and especially on the Hydro give away. Many other more important people gave them the same advice. They didn't listen.
2. That the feminist quota issue would alienate a large percentage of potential voters and that it was in the best interest of the people of the province to shelve it if they really wished to get elected.
They ignored me.
And I have now come to the conclusion that they are either quislings or they don't know WTF they are doing. They have to go.

Hey Frank Re: Dave Barrett

There was no palace revolt under Barrett the third time! Furthermore do you think if Carole James had provided the kind of opposition Dave Barrett did in his day we would be having this discussion? Some comparisons are ludicrous.

Here's the Problem...

James said she has been working on building a platform that includes increasing the minimum wage, supporting green retrofits for public buildings, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, creating green jobs, building the evergreen line in Vancouver and writing a child poverty reduction plan.

After 7 years and we still have yet to see this. Even if it was developed it still isn't much in my opinion.

Please step down Carole.

Ed

You started this discussion by asking me for the 14th time what "left" and "right" mean.

I'm not surprised you'd blather on about a bunch of unrelated nonsense and then declare you have nothing to say.

If you don't want to engage in a debate then don't ask such juvenile questions.

Skywalker

You have a short memory, I didn't raise Dave Barrett as an issue, I simply provided historical background after his name came up.

Fact is, DB lost 3 elections and won one with 39% of the vote.

Corky`s letter

If the letter posted by Corky Evans is true, then we have to see a leadership change, and sooner the better.

"sit on the sidelines and

"sit on the sidelines and observe with a whiskey and a bowl of popcorn. :-) coyote

I've taken your advice, Jerry. I've got my sour mash from kentucky and a bowl of popcorn. I'm waing to watch some democracy in action. I'm waiting to watch our members act on the wishes of their constituents. I used to make donations and volunteer for the NDP because they had the best interst in average folks in their thinking and actions. Since Carole's coming to power, I have never heard back from her office even to acknowledge the recipt of my 1 letter nor any of my 3 emails that were written with the best interest of children and ordinary folks in mind. I stopped donating after 2005, and though I attended an NDP rally just before the last election, I can't say that my heart is into helping her. I like our NDP MLA. He's not one of the ones who supports Carole. He understands the issues, and we have had some good discussions about what needs to happen when the MSM is clearly BC Liberal biased. I am thankful for the Tyee.

Not "strengthened"

alcm: "You really think forcing Carole James to walk the plank in a bloody open family feud and then replacing her with one of the very same Rebel Leaders is going to suddenly restore public confidence in the NDP?"

Strengthened is perhaps the wrong word. Enlivened? There is broad perception amongst the electorate that Carole James has been inactive and ineffective. That she is the status quo. Whether this is fair or accurate it is out there.

This rebel tag is vastly overused and misused. Thanks to Campbell, the BC electorate is presently disenchanted with the cult of authoritarian leadership. Carole James has the clear support of roughly 1/3 of her caucus. She has the support of the NDP Council which is a tiny percentage of the NDP Party which in turn is a tiny, insignificant percentage of the people the NDP needs to appeal to in order to get elected. The NDP Council represents many of the vested interests that make the general electorate distrust the NDP.

With disaffection with both parties, this is an opportunity for a third party or a coalition of third parties to come up the middle as the Liberals themselves did. Unfortunately, the third parties have a habit of only speaking to the public during election cycles. Who knows anything about them except for their party faithful?

Frank

I was an active member during that period. There was no move to take his job and he was a great opposition leader bar none. It is a completely different picture now.

NPP=BCLIBS

There is no doubt abo0t it. The NDP is a totally spent force and needs to redefine what it stands for.

The electorate are angry not only at the BC Libs but also at the NDP. They see nothing but government by 'special interest groups' that only translates into huge cost. The NDP is notorious as a sigular supporter of these arrogant special interest groups.

The NDP is a flawed political philosophy more akin to the early 20th century. The current BC NDP has not provided alternatives, is defunct of new ideas, does not support the good of BC or anything else than their own self importance.

The NDP should be disbanded as should the BC Liberals; they are both are in the policy dark ages.

Carole James is a useless leader who has a vision about 3 cm from her eyeballs. In fact there is no one in the NDP that has any vision for BC what so ever
.

Ed...actually, I have... once.

Received an actual email response from Carole James - it was in regard to a constituency issue and she handled it properly and promptly.

In respect of this whole issue I haven't much to say because I think most of it has been said and unsaid several times by others...and, I'm typing on a balky laptop on a public LAN in Tofino, so this will have to be short.

I don't think historical parallels (by that I mean British Columbia political history) can teach us much in this case.

We're in strange new territory and it would be unwise to draw too many conclusions about what's going to happen next in this case.

I cannot imagine such an event would have happened in the past, there simply aren't any relevant parallels...but, I do think there is something 'new' in the wind.

In the past year the leaders of both the main political parties in this province have been brought down by the concerted actions of citizens...in the case of Gordon Campbell this has occurred as a result of an organized campaign to change a tax policy and the way it was implemented. In the case of Carole James she has been destroyed by a discursive and ill-defined 'popular front' of individuals who lack a strategy AND a leader.

At the same time, both of these groups have relied almost exclusively upon 'new' means of communication and organization that were not widely and freely available even 10 years ago and, the success of the first group (the HST initiative) has given the second group the idea that they too can attack what, up until this point, would have been seen as an unassailable status quo.

Anyone who thinks they know what is going to happen next is dreaming - these are, like it or not - revolutionary times....

nuances lost on some

Ed,
It's certainly clear to me from what you're saying and from what I've observed that the party divisions are not easily categorized as "left vs right".

Some James loyalists attack Bob Simpson as some kind of ex-Liberal and therefore right wing party wrecker. Others are defining the dissenters as "left". Who cares.

I have to agree with you that the divisions defy simplistic left-right, rural-urban dichotomies. Some of the core issues seem to include:

democratic process within caucus (or lack thereof)
party policy (or lack thereof)
integrity (or lack thereof) e.g. Sihota & co.
leadership (or lack thereof)

Don't ever stop writing, Ed - I always appreciate your ability to encapsulate the macro issues with panache. And your extensive real life experience.

Let the party apparatchiks spin doctors and pork choppers continue to hang themselves with their rationalizations and admonitions. They are so out of touch with the working class, yet delusional in thinking they speak for The People.

Will a Woman Leader ever succeed in the NDP

I think this shows that a woman leader will never be successful leading the NDP.

The union affiliation makes it too much of an old boy's network.

Pieces of the Picture

I'm not sure everyone involved in this discussion is familiar with some key pieces of information, so I'm bringing them forward and providing some corroboration.

The first is Corky Evans' open letter providing background on a recent attempt to ask Ms. James to leave, and the subsequent "yellow scarf" incident at Provincial Council.

http://richardhughes.ca/politics/a-letter-from-corky-evans/

The second link is to Joan Sawicki's letter to the NDP Provincial Executive protesting the "yellow scarf" matter.

http://richardhughes.ca/politics/former-environment-minister-joan-sawicki-highly-critical-of-yellow-scarf-tactic/

The third link is to an interview with Bob Simpson by Alex Tsakumis relating the circumstances behind his departure.

http://alexgtsakumis.com/2010/11/26/exclusive-on-line-interview-tsakumis-interviews-mla-bob-simpson-a-true-independent/

The fourth link is to an article by ordinary NDP member Bill Schram, published November 15 in the Gabriola Flying Shingle.

http://www.flyingshingle.com/cgi-bin/coranto/viewnews.cgi?id=20101115584599205766

Joan Sawicki's letter confirms Corky Evans' description of the yellow scarf incident.

Bob Simpson's account of his firing adds a layer of information to Corky's description of abuse of caucus solidarity. I think it is highly possible that most if not all the "dissident" MLAs have individually received ugly treatment over the issue of democratic process, which would explain the coalescence of a rather diverse group of individuals.

Anyone reading Bill Schram's piece would recognize someone with a profound respect for and deep understanding of democratic process.

Bill Schram and his partner Mary Beth Levan were observers at the "yellow scarf" incident. They were singled out and treated badly as non-scarf wearers. Both are highly experienced political workers with substantial experience in very difficult situations. They are people of great integrity.

Neither Mary Beth nor Bill is easily shocked. Both were horrified by the abuses of democracy that occurred at that NDP Provincial Council meeting. This provides more substantiation, from ordinary members, for Corky's and Joan's comments.

Read Bill's article, written in honour of Remembrance Day. The people I know who are questioning Carole James' leadership are guided by the values Bill Schram has expressed in his article.

In describing those questioning the leadership as complainers and anti-democratic, Ms. James is out of touch with reality. She is attacking members who hold principles that historically been at the heart of the NDP.

So - What's Going to Happen on Sunday

Assuming the MLAs don't all head off to water slides or lounges....
Some serious face-saving is in the offing: in exchange for Carole specifying a %support she needs at the 2011 leadership revue & accepting Bob Simpson back in the fold and maybe giving up Mo (if she has a say in that) what might she require from all caucus members?
Possibly a recorded vote on a motion that 1.binds MLAs to observe the Party Constitution and 2.includes a commitment to caucus unity.
I would hope that all MLAs could buy into this.
It will hopefully be a negotiating session. Heck - Carole might even throw in caucus membership as a caucus prerogative.
A caucus with more power would be a caucus with more responsibility.

Skywalker

Obviously I'm not "NDP". That said, the best NDP premier that BC ever had was Premier Dan Miller, selected by caucus, after the Clark kerfuffle.

Miller, with a unionized private sector background, understands both business and the social sector. Miller's positions today, contrary to current NDP party positions, are the same positions of former Manitoba premier Gary Doer, who was the most popular premier in Manitoban history.

Carole James is no Dan Miller.

In any event, obviously both you and Frank are from the same left-side spectrum within the NDP. Frank, however, is also pragmatic, a good political analyst, and also understands the consequences of the current bloodfest. And also has a hell of a good sense of humour.

Me? I'm a blue liberal who thinks that another blue liberal such as Carole Taylor would make an excellent premier (aside from the NDP's Dan Miller, who doesn't have much cache within the NDP these days).

And when I say blue liberal, that means I understand both business and social issues such as the unforgivable low minimum wage and poverty, which should be addressed by gov't.

And yes, the vision and passion of Dave Barrett's days seem to have vanished within the NDP. The MSM has jumped offside ever since.

I should say this about Dave

I should say this about Dave Barrett. I remember when he won the election in BC. I was working as a busboy at a Fullers restaurant in Alberta. The NDP victory gave me hope. And I kept that hope even when I went for a haircut and heard someone talking about the new KFC in BC, "all left wings and a******s". And I thought how much the world is divided between those who wish to preserve the power of the elites and those who are fighting against the elites.

Here in BC, we now have suffered for over a decade under the lying regime of the Campbell Liberals who could be characterized as all true KFC "right wings and a******s".

But the worst part of course, is that they are all a bunch of lying a******s.

Lukie

There's no such beast as a blue liberal - you can't just make up names for what you'd like to think you are.

The term is TRUE Blue liberal and it has no meaning in Canada; it's a derivation used in the US...In Canada, the Liberal colour is RED and left leaning Tories (like Joe Clark) are called Red Tories.

Carole Taylor is a wealthy gold digger - she was a know nothing finance minister who hadn't even read the regulations for her Carbon Tax when she signed off on them.

I'm not surprised you'd love her.

Skywalker

"There was no move to take his job and he was a great opposition leader bar none. It is a completely different picture now."

That kinda blows your argument out of the water about it all being about Carole losing 2 elections then doesn't it?

Barrett lost 3 in a row and yet the Left didn't stab him in the back like they've done to every leader since.

Even though he didn't face as hostile a media as CJ, even though he was running against a guy that had been in power for 20 years, even though things like the Fraser Institute didn't exist back in '72, even though his only win was when the Right was divided into 3 parties allowing him to win with 39% of the vote, as you say yourself, there was no move to get rid of him.

Kinda says it all. Its all about having a hate-on for James herself, nothing to do with her record.

Barrett was an effective opposition leader with no chance of ever winning another election and that's what you guys want again.

Just a strong left-wing voice because as alive says, you're not out to win elections, you just want someone who will effectively preach your ideology. Here I've been arguing against Bobby Peru whereas most of you were probably nodding your heads in agreement with him when he said you wanted a movement, not a political party.

Well those of us that were little kids back when Dave Barrett was around and have a couple of decades to go before we collect CPP will just have to wait for your generation to pass on.

Maybe the reason the party can't grow any support is because you don't welcome new members. There's no compromise, you want to keep living in the 60's and 70's and like an old sergeant-major want to surround yourselves only with people that look and think the same way you do and have the same touchstones.

You can keep changing leaders all you want but one day you'll have to accept the fact the problem isn't the leadership. Its what you're trying to sell, that's why there's no new members.

Need a little Joy...

We need a "scrapper". Joy MacPhail, where are you?

it started with a total lack of policy

Carole James is in mess of her own making.

This whole situation started with the NDP not having defined positions on policy issues . . . for eight years. This was under Carole James' leadership. And as the official opposition have been almost invisible.

To Carole James supporters the polling numbers were looking good. To me they were looking soft because once Gordon Campbell went, the Liberals could rebrand themselves under a new leader and reach out to that big pool of undecided voters.

And Carole James doesn't resonate with the general public, hence 50% voter turn out in the last election.

This alienation from the NDP party by both average voters and NDP-friendly voters (the base) would have been picked up by NDP MLAs. Especially recognizable MLAs in more rural ridings who are talking with their constituents all the time.

Bob Simpson (like the base) had concerns about the direction of the party. After a mild criticism in his blog, Carole James summarily fired him, without following party process at all.

As a result of firing Bob Simpson without due process, and growing concerns about her leadership, 13 MLAs wrote a confidential letter asking Carole James to resign.

She responded with the stupid yellow scarf fiasco at the provincial council meeting. (See Corky Evans brilliant letter and Joan Sawicki's take on this bullying, intimidation and lack of process, as per Island NDPer's posted links above). The yellow scarf ploy was also a media disaster.

Finally, Jenny Kwan goes public with a scathing critique of Carole James' leadership. And Kwan is right. Does James resign? the only course of action open to her? No, she calls a special meeting and threatens MLAs. So Carole James must resign eventually but not before she destroyed the party in the process.

By now my opinion has changed from:
* Carole James nice, smart, albeit uninspiring lady who would probably be a decent premier and is at least honest
to
* Carole James, terrible leader. What the hell is Moe Sihota doing as party president?! And wtf? Elected MLAs are being ignored or frozen out or punished?

This move to limit the role of MLAs is especially ironic---recall has momentum because average voters want MLAs that actually represent them and not blind obedience to a party.

So Carole is in a mess of her own making.

She wouldn't have won the next provincial election anyways (which odds are will be a "snap" one in Spring 2011 so the new Liberal premier can have a democratic mandate).

Biscotti to Ed...

"Don't ever stop writing, Ed - I always appreciate your ability to encapsulate the macro issues with panache. And your extensive real life experience.

Let the party apparatchiks spin doctors and pork choppers continue to hang themselves with their rationalizations and admonitions. They are so out of touch with the working class, yet delusional in thinking they speak for The People." Biscotti.

And this goes for me too, Ed. There is indeed a level, I think, at which this truly does all go beyond the traditional left and right definitions... and I say this as a person who generally adheres to the "usefulness" of these concepts. (And the view that we all carry our particular "ideologies", be we aware of it or not, or choose to acknowledge it.)

I, and many others here, I'm damned sure, highly value your opinions and contributions. You stay put right here.

Biscotti got it right, brother. :-)

PS
It took awhile to get Frank's real... How shall I say? ..."apparatchik and rightist NDPer ideology", for want of a better description, flushed out into the open here, but it is finally done, and he is now "business friendly" naked too, without his Emperor's clothes. :-) lol

Perhaps, assuming that this "democratization" process ultimately proves successful within the NDP, hopefully it can and will next be taken up by the working class in the trade union movement. There is a major, major "collaborative leadership" housecleaning that needs to go on there as well, bringing a "transformed" or "rejuvenated" democracy into the House of Labour as well. (A poor attempt to introduce a little Leonard Cohen from "Democracy is Coming to The USA).

For, in the final analysis, if there is ever to be an adequate working class response to all the issues that VivianLeadDoubt speaks so well of, she and we all need to understand that first, the decks have to be cleared of all the wasted space taken up by self-serving careerist and ruling class serving bureaucrats/apparatchiks. All those who dither, delay, sidetrack and outright throw buses in front of the effort to really get down and deal effectively with these issues... And, as part of that, there is a need to deal conclusively with this neo-conservative/quasi-fascist period that is growing up like a cancer, and responsible for it all... the growing misery and insecurity, and undermining of the potential power of the working class.

It's time to organize, clean house and rebuild an effective, yes militant, working class/ citizen movement once again. It's time to draw that line in the sand, hold it, and start pushing back... retaking the offencive. Without it, there is only what you see growing up all around you, this rising sea of poop.

If they can't be changed or moved, it's time to abandon the dipshits and step around and over them... and begin the rebuilding without them.

there is a crack in everything

... that's how the light gets in ...

[since we're humming along with Leonard Cohen now ;-)

Brilliant New Strategy

In a move that will revolutionize BC politics, the NDP executive has announced via confidential email the launch of a devastating weapon they have termed an "election platform".

http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/005571.html

May I have permission to bow down in shock and awe?

Toast is the word

The 84% majority of an NDP council vote does not amount to much because 1) it was not a secret ballot, 2) the yellow scarves tactics intimidated council members, and 3) council members did not necessarily reflect the wishes of their constituencies. My own council delegate had no way of knowing as the issue was not discussed. I know I do not agree with him. So much for party democracy ruling etc etc.

I know the opinions expressed on this website come a lot closer to reflecting the state of opinion of the province than the 84% vote at that council meeting. I know because the discussions over lunch at my place of work sound exactly the same, and these are general citizens, mostly NDP leaning.

Corky's letter is devastating.

Carole is toast. Even if she hangs on, she will lose the next election, and then she will be burnt toast.

Brillian New Strategy....

Now, not being an NDPer, I don't really know how that rank and file might think about it... though there is some fairly clear indication here. But I know this is sure as Hell not good enough to get me out to vote for.

But even more important than that, I think, she is continuing to make the mistake that it is really all about "Her" and "The Apparatchik League" around her. It is not all about her, but the membership of the Party who, were it me anyway, might want to be not only "a part", but the formulating and deciding element in the putting together of a programme to take to their fellow citizens.

But then.... maybe this cobbled together attempt to satisfy the restless Natives might be good enough. It depends on how easily satisfied they are, that they will content themselves with these crumbs tossed to them. "You viscious little pirhana bastards.... Here nibble on this."

I want more from democracy than I see here, thus far.

I don't recall who it was here who said it earlier, but I agree. Were this lady and those around her confident that they could win a confidence vote and the input of the Party membership, she would herself call this leadership review, clear the air, and have done with it. That she has her heels dug in and is not, is a tossed hand grenade.

She/they know/think they would lose it.

How can anyone lead this bunch?

It does not matter who tries to lead this, you have two camps who are at odds with each other. As long as that situation remains there is no point even discussing who the leader is. The caucus needs to resolve their differences (or at least take them behind closed doors) and get back to attacking the Liberals and offering a promise of a different vision for BC. They need to do this working with the duly elected NDP Leader, Carole James. If the caucus members to their jobs, building party support while undermining the Liberals, they will form the next government in BC. By the way, as an NDP member, that is MY priority.

Over and Over and Over again....

Do readers here ever get the impression that there are at least a dozen of you that get together for coffee about 6 in the morning with your laptops at the ready to take issue with every column written in the TYEE and with each other and ignore anyone that isn't in your list of friends or foes?
For example, Corky's letter was mentioned first by a contributor about 24 hours ago, and then sited by another two or three people since then. It seems that some people spend their life reading the TYEE but not really reading it, if you know what I mean. And to top it off, this cafe group simply regurgitates the same crap over and over again as if it wasn't even mentioned in the original column. Get a life!

Frank said..

"Maybe the reason the party can't grow any support is because you don't welcome new members. There's no compromise, you want to keep living in the 60's and 70's..."

THe NDP membership is down somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4 of what it was. All those people who Frank claims are living in the 60's and 70's have long since left or are less than enthusiastic about the NDP. Frank's generation have not manged to increase membership even though they have had full reign of the BC NDP. Blaming others is now part of the game.

It is always easy to look at everyone else, never yourself. You don't like Carol's style you are a malcontent, acting like children according to Ramsey, of low IQ according to others, you let others carry the freight, and on and on. Instead of shooting the messenger go and ask all the people you work with how they view the leaders performance You might actually discover the truth for yourself.

You manipulate a Provincial Council meeting, bring out the yellow to intimidate, don't call for a secret ballot so some delegates abstain and then shout that you have 81% support. Horse s@%t! If you had guts you would demand a poll of the entire membership - one member one vote and see how the actions of the inner cabal is viewed.

As for the comment "...and like an old sergeant-major want to surround yourselves only with people that look and think the same way you do and have the same touchstones." doesn't this describe what Frank, alcm archer 2006 ferncrest and Carole are trying to do?

Democracy at Provincial Council?

Yup, and I've got a great bridge to sell ya.

As an NDP member, I want to hold YOU accountable, Ms. James, for every divisive word you've spoken to the public media in the past three weeks. And every device you've employed to 'out' any MLAs who disagree with you. And every instance of public embarrassment you've brought on the party.

Most of all, I want to hold you accountable, Ms. James, for every content-free speech you've given in the past eight years.

Folks, read Corky Evans' letter. If it's not here at the Tyee, go to The Public Eye.

Look guys...

Do you honestly believe the NDP's chances of forming government are better today than they were 6 weeks ago?

Do you really think it makes all that much difference who the 'leader' of a social democratic party is?

If you do, how do you explain the fact that, in the 10 year period that the NDP held power at the end of the 20th century the party had several leaders?

You're saying, it seems to me, that the NDP can't win with Carole James, but, apart from a couple of facile references to Corky Evans and Jenny Kwan, you haven't proposed a single strong replacement for Ms James.

Who do you have in mind?

Seems to me that the evidence of Carole James's success at bringing the party out of the wilderness almost to the promised land is clear. As such, I think the onus is on those who're screaming 'dump Carole' to come up with a clear and unequivocal successor.

No matter how you feel about the prospects for the party in the next election I don't see how anyone can argue that things are improving since Bob Simpson's ouster.

I know that Bob Simpson had been sniping at the party's leader for years before Carole James finally acted. The suggestion that she didn't have cause for removing him from caucus is absurd - she CAN be faulted for not moving sooner.

Furthermore, many of the same people here at Tyee who are supporting the so-called dissidents now are exactly the same people who've been calling for Carole James's scalp for the past three years here.

I also think it's interesting that Jenny Kwan should have shared rented digs with Simpson and Conroy for the past 4 years when they were in Victoria...

And, although I suppose I'll get nailed for this comment, I can't imagine that a male leader would have centered the way Carole James has been.

I'm no rabid James supporter but I do want to see government change for the better in this province. I think the responsibility for justifying this basically undemocratic move against the duly elected leader of the party falls on those who are leading and supporting the putsch.

How about it?

And I'd like something a lot more specific and concrete than Jenny's 30 paragraphs of emotion.

But GWest!

For heaven's sake, who in their right mind would even suggest they were interested in leadership in this toxic climate. Now back in 2003 or 2004 (I can't remember exactly) when Joy McPhail let it be known that she wasn't interested in the job and Jenny Kwan did as well, who had ever heard of Carole James? Anyone would have to have a political death wish to suggest in this climate that they might be interested.

You use a poor excuse for your position if that is all there is. Secondly if we've been saying the same thing for three years it is because, that is what we have been hearing on the street. Why is is so hard to understand that Provincial Council is subject to the "conductor's baton" just as convention often is. The folks that run these shows in all parties live in a different world. And yes the gender comment is BS and you should know it and it is unbecoming a rational person. Or as one might say "the second last gasp of a scoundrel". As you know the last gasp is wrapping yourself in a flag.

As to the sharing of rented digs, what in God's name has that got to do with anything! Lot's of MLA's over the years might have been Bed and Breakfast and heaven forbid that they talk about their frustrations and solutions instead of singing songs in praise of the Great Leader. Come on man!

The fact is Carole James is not the NDP and like everyone she is dispensable. The NDP will survive her and the BC Liberals will ensure that survival.

Answer me this question. Is Carole hanging on for dear life to this job out of loyalty to the New Democratic Party or is it because she wants to prove something to herself? This toxic environment is unprecedented and she shares as much of the blame as anyone there and very possible more because of the bad advice she took form...well you know.

Skywalker

You don't seem to get it.

"Dave Barrett did not have half of caucus uncomfortable with his leadership. His three loses and Carol's two just don't compare unless you have been asleep this past month. It's apples and oranges and you raised it."

They do compare. Dave's record is worse and yet caucus never revolted under his leadership. That tells me it isn't Carole's record that's the issue.

Skywalker

"Frank's generation have not manged to increase membership even though they have had full reign of the BC NDP."

No, we haven't.

"Blaming others is now part of the game."

Which is what you're doing. You're blaming a leader that has a better record than any other BC NDP leader in history.

"doesn't this describe what Frank, alcm archer 2006 ferncrest and Carole are trying to do?"

No, we want a bigger tent because the political power to effect change is more important to me than an ineffectual political club that feeds each other the same tired old slogans over and over.

Skywalker

Look, I think it's incumbent upon those who want to smash the current leader and send her to the showers to do more than stamp their feet and yell 'it isn't working'.

Especially when, by all the measures we actually have IT WAS WORKING - at least until 6 weeks ago.

I happen to have heard of Ms James long before you have apparently - and I guess Jenny Kwan did too since she nominated the woman for the job.

I think birds of a feather flock together - I don't think it was a coincidence that certain members of Campbell's caucus lived together in Victoria either...and don't you find it a little suspicious that the 3 main plotters in this little coup were roomies for 4 years?

These things aren't sui generis surely.

As for the gender thing - I totally disagree.

One of the main points that reading Tyee posts about James (not yours necessarily) has shown me is that her efforts to bring more female and minority representation into caucus has not been welcomed with fulsome praise. Furthermore, the adjectives used to attack Ms James are typical of the kind of thing one uses to denigrate a woman: shrill, whining, fish-wife, 'like my mother', lecturing, weak, hectoring; I could go on.

One doesn't say those things - especially about a woman - unless you're trying to attack her upon a fundamental characteristic about which she can do NOTHING. She is a woman and such criticisms are, in my view, both sexist and unfair.

Look, I'm NOT A JAMES loyalist - I'm a party supporter (but not a member and certainly not a mover and shaker).

I want rid of Campbell and Campbell style government; I don't like Moe Sihota and I think his elevation to the position of paid party president was a BAD idea; I support one member one vote and I think the bad old days when Labour had too much influence in the party are well over (thanks, I believe to changes made under Carole James).

It's obvious that James is damaged goods now and I doubt she can hang on.

All I'm saying is that the people who created this blow up haven't satisfied me of their good intentions OR their plan for the next step in this glorious revolution.

It is too much to ask that they take some responsibility for what seems to me to be the probable outcome?

I'll still be voting NDP if there's a party left to vote for.

I just think we've moved from a better than 50/50 chance of being able to create some solutions to the problems Campbell has exacerbated for the past 10 years to, at best, about a 10% probability.

You show me who's going to improve those odds and I'll sign on...until then, I think the onus is on the pottery smashers!

Frank

You thought process seems to change to suit the outcome you want. We will agree to disagree. Dave Barrett did not/would not tenaciously hang on for dear life to the leadership post if he had the same level of dissension.

Will the real pottery smashers please stand up?

"until then, I think the onus is on the pottery smashers!"

I agree... and since it's not Colonel Mustard with a revolver in the billiard room and it's not Professor Plum with a dagger in the library - it appears to be Ms. James herself, with the help of some closet elves, hammer in hands, who have orchestrated the divisiveness in the Caucus Room.

The question is why?

Why did Ms. James breach protocol and take the dissent public?

Why did she intentionally refuse to give scarves to the thirteen MLA's and thus create a public spectacle of division?

And if this was not Ms James's idea, whose idea was it? Because that will be a big 'clue' as to who the real pottery smashers are?

The thirteen MLA's followed the protocol in approaching their leader privately first. The question is: Why did Ms. James betray not only their right of confidentiality but also the democratic protocol itself?

GWest

So which came first. They rented a place at the same Boarding House or they agreed that the NDP would not win with Carole? We'll agree to disagree on the gender thing.

Also the folks I run into are wanting to vote NDP and not liberal. The soft part of the universe still isn't convinced she has the stuff. They need a reason. It hasn't shown itself in 6 years. The longer you put this off, the worse it gets. Then when you have dragged it out so long that your 10% becomes a self fulfilling prophesy you can blame all the dissident with the self-serving satisfaction. Be comforted then by the knowledge that you didn't have the guts to make the call earlier.

Seems to me that quite a few women

are criticizing Carole's leadership as well, and no, I've never gotten a response from the Leader either.....

The BCNDP prove one thing ...

and that is it can't undertake operating a democracy of 80~odd people; surely is incapable of doing it for a province.

People vote for Parties, Frank, because the propaganda has filled their heads with lies about what politics is (i.e., representation rather than power), and what democracy is (i.e., a vote for a preselected contender rather that representation 'of, by and for' the people).

The notion that a single Party, governed by a single leader -- accountable to others unseen, can represent 85 distinct electoral districts is simply stupid. You have to be taught that sort of shit before you'd ever believe it, but there we go.

@lynn

I don't 'know' the answer to that question - I don't actually believe anyone does.

That's why I responded to Jenny Kwan's discursive cri d'coeur with a request for more information...you can read what I wrote at Bill Tieleman's blog if you care to.

As for procedure. I think, as I said earlier, that we're in new territory here. I've also heard - and this WAS from someone who's a member of the provincial council - that yellow scarves 'were' offered and refused.

Truth to tell, I don't KNOW what the whole truth is - I'm only asking questions and, as I said earlier to Skywalker, worrying.

Is there a 'right' to confidentiality?
Is there a protocol for palace intrigue?
Is there a polite way to destroy or seriously threaten the chances of getting rid of Gordon Campbell's detestable stable mates?

I agree with almost everything you've ever written here at Tyee Lynn - and I agree we all ought to care and act that way in our lives - in fact that's the way I try to live my life.

But that doesn't mean I accept 'anyone's' version of events that are, as we speak, very much in flux, nor does it mean that I'm going to be sanguine about what appears to me to be a huge and growing mess in the place of what was, a few short weeks ago, a virtual certain self-destruction of the hated BC Liberal brand.

@Skywalker - you must run in different circles and with people who are a lot older than the ones I talk to every day.

My experience is with mostly younger people (under 30 years of age) and in my experience, nothing that's happened this week has made them more likely to be engaged in politics.

My experience with clients (I'm a professional who deals mostly with people who have a fair bit of money and tend to be conservative) is that many of them who had been disgusted with Campbell and who were seriously thinking of voting NDP are now reconsidering...

I do know that anyone who expects to be respected and then tells people who are his nominal allies that they haven't got the guts to make 'calls' is not going to make a lot of friends in my mind.

I've asked you who you'd suggest as a replacement for Carole James - you've dodged that question; I've suggested that prospects for dumping the Liberals now are less positive than they were a month ago and you've deflected and dissembled; I've pointed out that the coincidence that three main characters in this melodrama lived together off and on for the past 4 years and you've failed to see any significance in that.

Paul Nettleton shared digs with Campbell and he was the first person to leave the caucus - I think that underlines the point I'm making...

On the gender thing, I'll say it again - much of the criticism of Carole James is couched in sexist language - as I've demonstrated...You only have to look back over a range of comments here at Tyee to confirm that...

And, to further clarify

One further thing - and you might want to take a swing at me over this Sunshine Coast girl - I doubt Jenny Kwan would have tried her little speech out on a male leader...

I'm an old fashioned guy and I believe you play by the rules and go home from the dance with the gal (or guy) who brung you. After this folderol who would be mad enough to want to try and herd such a gang of cats?

And, about those unanswered emails: Have you ever gotten a personal reply from Gordon Campbell?

I'll bet not - the government party has the resources to hire flakes to answer everyone's mail - even if they don't take the trouble to read it - and they usually respond with something nominally 'sweet' that has bugger all to do with the point made in the original query.

The NDP has no staff to do that kind of thing and no money to hire it done - they're trying to contend, on a shoestring, with what the government has a staff of more than two hundred professionals and a budget of 10s of millions of dollars to do.

I think people need to get real - just because you have the time to play here at Tyee and on facebook and twitter or whatever the hell its called doesn't mean that a cash strapped and personnel poor party in opposition has either the beans or the time to do...

That's reality - as I see it.