- Ms Kaye is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Mary Carlisle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Prem Gill is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nancy Flight is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Justin Everett is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- John Westover is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nora Etches is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Edward Henderson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Bharadwaj Chandramouli is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Dean Chatterson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Marius Scurtescu is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Robert Parkes is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- James Murton is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Susan Doyle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Vincent Strgar is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Helen Spiegelman is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Subir Guin is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Kimball Finigan is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Joanne Manley is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- David Leach is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
Ottawa Halts Vancouver Train
As if ignoring high-speed and discouraging US rail investment were not enough, the Harper government now blocks even slow-speed rail. Third of four.
Wish you were here: Amtrak Cascades diner car.
Joe Zaccaria is a regular on the Amtrak to Seattle.
"I have not driven to Seattle or Portland for the past three years," he said. "And I go there extensively. I'm in Seattle at least twice a month, if not four times a month."
But Zaccaria doesn't board the train in Vancouver.
"Service from Vancouver is a nightmare," he said. "It seems like half the time, no trains even show up. You pay for a train ticket, then get put on a bus."
So Zaccaria, a security consultant who lives in the Fraser Valley, drives across the border to Bellingham, Washington, and boards a southbound train at 8:35 a.m. He can meet with clients all day in Seattle, have dinner, and be back in Bellingham by 9:05 p.m.
That's not an option when travelling from Vancouver, which is served by only one train per day. When it runs at all, Amtrak's lone Vancouver-to-Seattle train departs at 5:45 p.m. -- a schedule that eliminates the prospect of a day trip.
Amtrak has fought for years to bring that second train -- which departs in the morning -- to Vancouver. It almost happened last fall, after the province of British Columbia built a new rail siding in Delta. But then the Government of Canada stepped forward, and literally prevented Amtrak from crossing the border.
B.C. ponies up money for track
As The Tyee reported Wednesday, Washington State has spent 16 years -- and hundreds of millions of dollars -- gradually improving passenger rail service along the corridor between Eugene, Oregon, and Vancouver, British Columbia. And as reported yesterday, the government of British Columbia was largely unsupportive through most of those years.
But in March of 2007, the B.C. Liberal government agreed to split the cost of the minimum track upgrade required to bring a second slow-speed Amtrak train to Vancouver.
"This project will boost tourism dollars, reduce traffic congestion, and ease vehicle emissions on our major transportation corridors and at our border crossings," Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon said in a 2007 press release announcing the agreement.
Off the Rails
On the morning of December 10, 1968, a shiny new locomotive left Toronto's Union Station, pulling a gleaming train packed to its "power dome" with journalists. Just four short years earlier, Japan had rolled out the world's first 200-kilometre-per-hour bullet train, and now scores of reporters were aboard to witness North America's technological response: the TurboTrain, designed by Sikorsky Aircraft, built by Montreal Locomotive Works, and proudly operated by Canadian National.
An hour later, the TurboTrain slammed into a truck. The hapless meat man survived. Canada's efforts to develop modern passenger rail service did not. Four decades later, we remain the sole G8 nation without high-speed rail.
-- From "Off the Rails: How Canada fell from leader to laggard in high-speed rail, and why that needs to change" by Monte Paulson in the June issue of The Walrus.
The province put up $4.5 million toward the construction of a new rail siding near Colebrook Road in Delta, with Amtrak and the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway sharing the balance of the cost. The siding is basically a three-kilometer-long passing track that will allow one train to stand aside so another can pass. With the siding in place, Amtrak planned to continue to extend to Vancouver the additional Cascades service already running to Bellingham.
"The siding was completed last year and the second Seattle-to-Vancouver train was supposed to start running in August 2008," explained Vicki Sheehan, a spokesperson for the Washington State Department of Transportation.
"Then, at the last second, concerns were raised by the Canadian Border Services Agency," she said. "That’s what’s holding up the second train."
'Pennywise and pound foolish'
The Canadian Border Services Agency demanded that Amtrak reimburse the agency for the cost of providing another shift of customs inspectors in Vancouver.
The border agency cited its cost as $1,500 a day, or more than a half million dollars a year. The CBSA refused The Tyee's request for an interview on this subject.
But Ujjal Dosanjh had plenty to say about the agency's demand. The former premier and current MP for Vancouver-South is lobbying the Harper cabinet to waive the fees.
"The government is being pennywise and pound foolish," Dosanjh told The Tyee.
"Tourists spend money. This one train would bring an estimated $33 million a year worth of spending to Vancouver. And that does not include the long-term advantages of making it easier for Canadian business people to travel to Seattle and Portland," he explained.
"I understand that rules may have been made years ago, and that we were going to charge recovery fees -- which is what government is going now-a-days, trying to recover costs from the institution being served," Dosanjh continued. "But to let a half-million dollar levy deprive British Columbia of $33 million in spending? I think in this particular case it just doesn't make sense. It's asinine."
Dosanjh, a Liberal, blamed B.C.'s Conservative MPs for ignoring the problem. "No one from British Columbia is telling Peter van Loan to get his bureaucrats to back off," he said. "The Government is asleep at the switch."
"I would urge Premier Campbell to actually not only pay attention to this, but also prod the federal government to pay attention to this on behalf of British Columbia," he added. "The Obama administration is prepared to spend billions of dollars, and we should take advantage of that."
Part of a larger pattern?
Dosanjh spoke of the border agency's interference as if it were a simple snafu, a mistake to be remedied quickly.
But railway advocates view the incident as merely the latest example of the Government of Canada's longstanding pattern of undermining passenger rail travel. Rail historian Christopher Greenlaw points to Canada's "insincere flirtation" with high-speed rail as a prime example.
Canada's habit of purporting to support passenger rail improvements while quietly stalling them is also the subject of a report in the June edition of The Walrus, entitled, "Off the Rails: How Canada fell from leader to laggard in high-speed rail, and why that needs to change."
The restoration of rapid passenger rail service to the corridor between Quebec City and Windsor, for example, has been the subject of sixteen studies since 1973 -- seventeen, if you count the one launched in February of this year. Meanwhile Bombardier, which once built cutting-edge high-speed trains at Montreal Locomotive Works, has relocated its rail division to Europe. The iconic Canadian company now builds high-speed rail systems in every corner of the globe -- except for Canada.
Joe Volpe is the Official Opposition Transport Critic, and part of a Parliamentary committee that has recently been reconsidering the re-establishment of high-speed rail. The Liberal MP said things will be different this time.
"As you know, this thing has been studied to death," Volpe told The Tyee. However, "the economic conditions in which we find ourselves really make it much more propitious for us to consider this today."
In addition to the need for long-term stimulus investment, Volpe said political leaders are lining up behind the idea.
"Michael Ignatieff has come out very vigorously, openly, for passenger rail," he said. "The premier of Ontario and the premier of Quebec both want to do this," he added. "Even our own committee, which until about a month or so ago seemed to be rather dissident about it, is today much more enthusiastic."
'It's about the economy, stupid'
Amtrak regular Joe Zaccaria laughed when told why his Bellingham train does not roll across the border to Vancouver.
"It amazes me," he said. "We have all this know-how in North America, and yet the Third World does a better job of facilitating customs. They collect your passport at the beginning of the trip. At the end of the trip you are handed your passport with a visa stamped in it. And they do entry and exit enforcement."
Zaccaria's experiences aboard the Amtrak Cascades have been part of what lead him to help form a citizens' group called South Fraser OnTrax, which is lobbying for the creation of light rail and the restoration of streetcar service in the Fraser Valley.
"When I started riding the Cascades three years ago, it was dead during the week and really active on the weekends. Now the ridership has exploded. Sometimes I've got to book three days ahead of time to be able to get on the train," he said.
The relative ease of travel to Seattle has cut Vancouver out of his life.
"I go to Seattle far more often now," he said. "If I get to Vancouver once every six months, that's too much for me, because I just hate that commute. To go to Vancouver, I've got to get up at like four o'clock just to beat the traffic... I can make more money in Seattle, and it's a much easier commute."
Zaccaria suggested Vancouver will continue to lose business until the Government of Canada gets on board.
"I see all these business connections between Vancouver and Seattle and you've got to shake your head and wonder why we haven’t done this 20 years ago," he said.
"It's about the economy, stupid. What part of that does Ottawa not get?"
On Monday, The Fix: A new rail corridor from Vancouver to Langley could serve both Fraser Valley residents and Seattle-bound passengers for less than the cost of doing the two projects separately.
Related Tyee stories:
- Passenger rail rights at risk: Langley Mayor
- John Baird, Light Rail Killer
Did Tories' new enviro minister undercut a big light rail project to settle a political score? A Tyee special report. - 'We've got the money' for transit, says Green candidate Rees
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
69
Login or register to post comments
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
CBSA's Idiotic Stance...
And the siding continues to sit there aside Hwy 91, unused. Ludicrous.
This matter has nothing at all to do with HST. It's simply a matter of bringing in a second daily round of the existing service.
Nobody can understand CBSA's idiotic stance. I don't get it and whoever is in charge of that policy should be turfed. REALLY.
No doubt about that.
doggone
3 years ago
Makes me wonder
"It amazes me," he said. "We have all this know-how in North America, and yet the Third World does a better job of facilitating customs. They collect your passport at the beginning of the trip. At the end of the trip you are handed your passport with a visa stamped in it. And they do entry and exit enforcement."
I have traveled by public transit in Lao PDR much more sensibly than lower mainland BC or Vancouver Island. Travel distances are similar and population densities (given that this western end is generally somewhat more affluent) compare.
So what could motivate our governments to block any sensible investment?
Could it be that they still believe Life magazine articles from the 1950's where we all drive huge cars and smile and wear Panty hose and aspire to owning a color TV?
rac
3 years ago
Time for a Change
Time for a new government. Look at the difference that made in the states.
Dan the socialist
3 years ago
As long as people continue
As long as people continue to vote the same old into Victoria and the other right wing nut jobs in Ottawa things won't change.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Dosanjh, Volpe, Ignatieff
I am kind of shocked that Monte Paulsen has gone from quoting knowledgeable officials to interviewing Liberal Party politicos.
This is not part of Dosanjh's shadow portfolio, so why is he quoted? Volpe? Isn't he the guy who tried to use kids as donors to his leadership drive so he could get around limits on donations and restrictions on sources? Ignatieff? How has the subject of transportation figured in any of his writings over the years?
Why not interview Peter Julian of Burnaby, who used to be the NDP transport critic and is still the party's Gateway critic? Why not interview Dennis Bevington of Western Arctic, the current NDP transport critic? The NDP platform last fall identified HSR in two locations:
If BC supporters of passenger rail transport feel left out, well then why not ask the NDP why the omission of Vancouver-Seattle from this list? Was someone afraid that Jack Layton, or Bevington or Julian, was going to tell him the same thing Vicki Sheehan did, that HSR is beyond reach in this corridor.
Jack Layton is a genuine rail booster. He doesn't own a car, takes the TTC, and for the 2006 NDP Convention in Quebec City he had the party arrange with CN for special trains for delegates between Montreal and Quebec. It was a pleasure to ride on a train where you could look out the window and see that you were, at times, going faster than the cars in the passing lane on the Trans Canada.
KevinC
3 years ago
Not about HSR/HST
As Luke Skywalker says above, this isn't about HST. For Pete's sake, just put on one extra train, preferably in the morning, and watch the people come. It's a lovely ride (I've done it twice) -- they'll be back for more. Oh, and please make sure that the trains do show up. It's unavoidable that now and again a train has to be replaced by a bus, but it should be the exception rather than the rule when this happens.
mSkehan
3 years ago
High Speed Rail
The Cascade Corridor is poised to get President Obamas 'fast-track' facelift and more trains as part of his vision for moving efficiently between cities. He noted that Europe and Asia do, 'why not us'. Indeed, and that applies to our freinds across the border, in Canada.
It seems to me that CBSA has yanked the welcome mat off her doorstep when talking to rail passengers. It follows that bicycles, cars, buses, and airline passengers won't be far behind to get the boot, if you don't arrive between 8-5.
Mike Skehan, Member, All Aboard Washington.
Bellingham
Tbarnston
2 years ago
Liberals
I would put money down that it was the Liberals who introduced "cost recovery" policy during the massive cutbacks during the Chretien/Martin dynasty.
Rod Smelser is right, Monte. You need to loosen up on your Liberal party fixation a bit on this one. As your report says, this undermining of passenger rail is a decades old tradition in Ottawa - a tradition started and upheld by Liberals and Tories.
Stump
2 years ago
The E & N
We have our own home-grown train embarrassment.
Why does the E & N railway, which could be a great rail link to the mainland and Victoria for all Island residents run north in the morning and south in the afternoon? The scheduling is out of date and hampers an opportunity to build a workable commuter rail solution allowing people to live on the North Island and make day trips to Nanaimo or Victoria for business, pleasure, or work.
alive
2 years ago
forget the hospitality industry
One might think there is a law against any improvement done specifically for the benefit of the local citizens.
Every new proposal includes the typical chamber of commerce disclaimer that it is good for business, brings in tourists!
How about we try to make the locals spend their tourist allocated dollars here where they live?
Is our entire economy based on everybody going on vacation, hoping that an equal number will chose to vacation here?
To me it sounds like the idea that I try to make a living polishing your shoes, and you in turn can make a living polishing my shoes.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Thanks, Tbarnston
Tbarnston
Rod Smelser is right, Monte. You need to loosen up on your Liberal party fixation a bit on this one. As your report says, this undermining of passenger rail is a decades old tradition in Ottawa - a tradition started and upheld by Liberals and Tories.
While the Liberals were in office they were contemplating the complete privatization of VIA for example. Liberal Cabinet Ministers in charge of rail tended to be low-rent placeholders like Dave Collenette, it was no more a priority than often promised national day care plan that never materialized.
It reminds me of a political science lecture I sat in on many years ago at UVic. The campus Liberal president at one point interjected that the worst thing a governmning party can do is actually build a promised public work because then you lose it as an election issue. Everyone chuckled at the apparently jaded, worldly wise view, ... but looking back, maybe he wasn't kidding?
Monte Paulsen
2 years ago
fair point
Rod Smelser and Tbarnston make a fair point. When I elected to talk to the Grits, I should have dropped a dime on the Dippers as well.
Here's what happened: As my deadline loomed, I still had nothing of substance from Transport Canada or the Border agency or the ministry. I was a bit frustrated at (once again) being denied more than cursory statements from this federal government. So I turned to the Official Opposition for substitute comment. (Volpe is quite passionate about the issue, btw, and raised several interesting points.) And, yes, when jumping the track from government comment to political comment, it would have been reasonable to also have broadened the net.
No disrepsect for the NDP's longstanding support of passenger rail was intended (or even considered).
My personal view is that any paradigm shift in passenger transportation will require support from all parties (including the Bloc) in order to succeed.
Thanks for calling me out on this point.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Monte: Maybe you got tired ...
... trying to extract some kind of response from Kevin Falcon!
Really, I think it's kind of weird that he refuses to be interviewed on the subject. Usually the staff can think up some kind of media lines that will allow the Minister to speak on a subject where the government of the day doesn't really intend to spend any cash.
To refuse to talk means, ... what? That they regard this subject as some kind of risky thing, any discussion of it is dangerous. And it's not just the press, Washington State cannot get much out of them either. It makes you wonder what's so explosive about this subject that complete avoidance is the only safe option.
Monte Paulsen
2 years ago
A theory about provincial silence
I don't know why Premier Campbell and Minister Falcon have been so silent about passenger rail for so long. (After all, it's not as if these guys are afraid of megaprojects.)
I have a theory. But it is only a theory, so take this with a grain of salt, ok?
Passenger rail has traditionally been a federal responsibility. But we live in an era in which Ottawa is quite aggressive about downloading costs. My theory is that Falcon and Campbell might fear that if the province plans something, the province will wind up having to pay for it.
I could be wrong about that. I don't really know. But if that is part of the reason, I hope Campbell will find a creative workaround.
It would be prudent for B.C. to pursue a course akin to that set by Washington State over the past decade. B.C. could plan rail projects and could contract a firm to see those projects through the environmental review process. All the while, the province could continue badgering the feds to pony up the money.
That way, whenever Ottawa is in the mood to fund rail, B.C. would be ready and waiting.
Stump
2 years ago
Kevin Failcon
won't comment on trains because his knowledge is utterly lacking on the topic. And if he did, people like me have a bad habit of pointing out how he managed to blow great opportunities for BC Rail by selling the company and letting other companies have the concession for potentially lucrative services between Whistler and Vancouver (Rocky Mountain Railtours will now reap the profits from this no-brainer instead of the public purse).
When it comes to transportation the best use for Failcon would be as a flag-person to stop drivers from blasting down my residential street at 60 km/h. He's utterly unqualified to do anything else except parrot whatever Gordo tells him to say at highway project ribbon-cuttings.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Thanks, Monte, that's interesting
I agree there is a federal/provincial responsibility angle here, and if one of the players is caught between chairs when the music stops, it can be expensive.
It's rather like the municipal governments as regards highways and freeways. The LRSP and Transport 2021 never mentioned PMH1 or any variant of that. I don't think local government wanted to go on record saying that a needed expansion was after all needed, for fear that the BC Govt would then say, fine people, now where's you share of the money?
I have a slightly different theory. Any committment by BC or Canada to replacing the Fraser River rail bridge with a new high-level bridge or tunnel, as is discusssed in the Washington State study for the Cascades route, would open the door to a second heavy-rail, West Coast Express type service south of the Fraser. And I don't think either BC or Ottawa want to do that because these services are popular and they threaten to provide too much competition to downtown real estate, especially if they were operated in both directions, 18 hours a day, like the GO Lakeshore line in Ontario.
The owners of that potentially threatened downtown real estate are called "major donors".
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
We used to say "Socred"
Stump
...he managed to blow great opportunities for BC Rail by selling the company and letting other companies have the concession for potentially lucrative services between Whistler and Vancouver (Rocky Mountain Railtours will now reap the profits from this no-brainer instead of the public purse).
I believe one of the principals, if not owner at least investor/manager, in Rocky Mtn Rail is a close relation of former Socred major player Grace M. McCarthy.
Again, I see that route to Squamish and Whistler not just in recreational tourism markets, but ultimately commuter usage as well.
Stump
2 years ago
total agreement
Agree completely Rod. But then, a viable train service would make the gajillion dollar Sea to Sky upgrade look sort of stupid wouldn't it? Not likely to please the Car Dealers or Road Builders associations much either.
Follow the money, find the scoundrels using our tax dollars to reward their campaign contributors.
kl
2 years ago
Why I'll never ride the train again
The train to Seattle is a complete joke. The one and only time I rode it made me determined to never do it again.
I arrived at 4pm for the 5:45, waited in line for over an hour to go through US Customs at the Vancouver train station, much like you do at the airport. The train finally left around 6pm and then crawled along to the border. We made not one stop in between. Yet, although we'd all already gone through Customs, had our bags searched, we went through the procedure a second time at the border. This tims Homeland Security came on with dogs and asked us all the usual questions. 45 minutes later we were back on to our crawl to Seattle.
I finally arrived at my hotel at 10:45pm, almost 7 hours after I first arrived at the train station in Vancouver.
I can drive there, when border traffic is minimal in around 2 hours fifteen minutes. And not have to go through Customs twice.
blackie
2 years ago
Canada Border Services
The CBS position on charging for incremental customs service is not new. They have taken this position on a number of other projects; for example -- Kamloops and Prince George wanted customs service to allow foreign airlines (e.g. Seattle's Horizon) into their airports. CBS said they would charge for it. They were also going to charge for additional customs services at the new Prince Rupert container terminal -- but they reached some sort of "accomodation" on that one.
Their policy seems to be that customs services at places like Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto (and Kelowna) airports is part of their core -- everything else is supplemental and will get charged on a cost-recovery basis. This has caused considerable consternation over the years in places like Prince George because it becomes a prohibitive cost factor in developing any kind of international services, and they quite rightly complain that their taxes are used to fund those "core" services that they now must compete with.
Before you blame the Harperites, I think this originated with the last Liberal government. AFAIK Harper hasn't changed it, although they've clearly made some kind of arrangements for places like Prince Rupert (and probably Prince George as well, with its spiffy new long runway and its global cargo aspirations).
It's worth asking a few questions.
cboo44
2 years ago
The Border
Did the Tyee interview U.S. Border officials about passengers going South? Why not? Or is this entirely one-sided?
Dosanjh "estimating" 33 million brought by train? Give me a break! Not with the current U.S. economy, that's just more BS from a politician trying to make "points". Guess what? Nobody "lobbies" and makes " publicity points" at the same time, it's all lies. Something Dosanjh is famous for.
Yes, Ottawa has to get off their arses, coordinate with US Border people and get it going. But any bets there is a hangup with US "Homeland Security" also? You betcha!
Don't eat that, Elmer.
runner
2 years ago
no chance of the Obama $$'s?
While this series and the Forum exchange are a great academic discussion and an important step the generation of ideas and support for what is a worthy project..
...I can't help but wonder what the true reality is of anything ever happening. The Obama $billions were, like most bailout and economic rescue dollars, earmarked for "shovel-ready" projects. As noted in one of the previous articles, the WSDT has plans for rail infrastructure upgrades in place already, fortuitously just in case some funds came their way like they well may do by the sounds of it.
However, on the BC side, our key provincial and federal decision makers haven't even done a sketch on a paper napkin over lunch, let alone have anything remotely close to "shovel ready". So, it seems to me that the odds of anything happening here in the near future are zippo.
Add to that the interesting silence from Falcon and a the lack of federal interest, and we're not going to see anything out of this at all. And too bad - think of the $$billions spent on the Gateway projects in the southern municipalities to upgrade the highways and border crossings to ensure that all those American drivers can bee-line up here for two weeks next February (or was that for us to get the heck out of town? I forget...), compared to what seems to be an easier, cheaper and eco-friendly (it's 2009, for heaven's sake, get on the bandwagon) rail line that would more pleasantly bring the throngs directly from Seattle into downtown Vancouver - and potentially up to Whistler as well - on rail.
Anyways, like I said, this is an important discussion, but I'm pretty sure it is a distraction to even think that we could somehow capitalise on any of Obama's $$ allocation. The only way is if Washington uses the money to improve infrastructure up to the border, and then maybe that would bring pressure for Canada/BC to come to the table and do something on our side. But that won't be any time soon, unfortunately.
RickW
2 years ago
Monte Paulsen's Theory
You're on the money, Monte. I would add though, that Campbell has donors among those who run car dealerships and construction companies, but doesn't have any connections to those who build railways.
Therfore, he isn't interested.
Fiat lux
2 years ago
It is not "About the economy
It is not "About the economy stupid" but "About the stupid economy" forced on us by our governments and politicians ,like our brainwashed economist PM.
Ed Deak.
doggone
2 years ago
Dear Stump
I have used the "commuter train" down Island a few times - if one has a place to stay in Victoria one can catch a red eye to Mexico if you happen to spend the night there.
Riding that train, though, I can see a few problems with upgrading the service:
You've got your numerous level crossings where the locals simply maintain speed with a cell phone stuck to their ear - I guess they have never seen what a train does to a car.
Single track most of the way so an upgrade would require tighter sheduals (as in these trains running more or less on time) and possibly more sidings.
The Brits do it and most European train engineers can read a timepiece.
The 12:01 from platform 4 goes one place and the 12:02 from platform 18 goes another place
'Course that's London
Dan the socialist
2 years ago
Yup. It seems politicians
Yup. It seems politicians are doing what they can to prevent it. They seem to rather build roads and bridges than Rail. Look at Surrey, it will be most populated city in BC in a few years and only 4 Sky Train stations... I am positive politicians hate rail.
They won't build commuter rail unless it is that highly priced SkyTrain which takes so long to build or invest in regular passenger like to Seattle..hell even in the early 90's we used to have two VIA Rail Trips a day to Winnipeg and now just 3 days a week...There is no excuse why we do not have regular LRT all throughout the lower mainland out to Chilliwack.
I think Canadians would rather drive too, it is all we know, unlike the rest of the world outside of North America, The auto culture is how we were all raised and it has been pumped into us by magazines, slick ads on tv and the fact transit sucks once you get into the burbs...then there are the NIMBY's.
morechatter
2 years ago
So What Is It?
Is it a new prime minister for Canada?
As unemployed Canadians march on Ottawa, shouting "What about US?" And then a healty NDP opposition can always get the train back on fast track.
RickW
2 years ago
Dan the Socialist
I'm of the generation that "would rather drive", but only because what else is there? Canada developed its infrastructure based on "infinite expansion", which meant that no planning was necessary. Now, about the only way to navigate these Rube Goldberg contraptions we call our cities IS the auto -- and that is very rapidly becoming untenable. The narcissistic politicans know that urban dwellers are becoming "agitated" over the constant gridlock, and so promise more, bigger, better, faster of what we are most familiar with. It's all a lie, but it's one that is aimed at our collective "comfort zone", and so we swallow it.
Stump
2 years ago
"Now, about the only way to
"Now, about the only way to navigate these Rube Goldberg contraptions we call our cities IS the auto"
Bikes or even motorbikes are much easier to use in the city than a car. If you're actually talking about the 'burbs then yes, the system is designed for cars.
alive
2 years ago
forget bikes
A lot of talk about bikes, try to remember that they are safely locked away the better part of the year because of our climate.
They are not a viable permanent solution and no amount of bikelanes will change that fact.
I could see a future for the cabin-scooters of the fifties.
They were small 3 wheel completely enclosed contraptions that really can turn on a dime and park in a minimum space.
And yes, they are plenty fast for our streets.
Stump
2 years ago
Alive
Our climate is quite conducive to biking year-round. We're more temperate than Copenhagen, which took the bold steps to encourage cycling for transportation and saw this mode of travel skyrocket.
This fable (of bike-unfriendly weather) has been discounted so many times by people who have done their homework that trotting it out again and again just allows us to disprove it and strengthen our case in every occasion. Y'all should try something new.
If my seven year old daughter can ride to school in the rain without melting I'm pretty sure grown-ups can too.
Not only are bikes a viable permanent solution, they are one of the best permanent solutions to urban travel for your average person. No amount of prejudice or reactionary outrage is likely to trump science and hard data anytime soon, but you're certainly welcome to try.
alive
2 years ago
I bike
look Stump, I am a biker.
My comments are about bikers who are not fanatics.
Just look at the difference in volume when it gets cold outside.
Yes, there are cities where motoring basically is prohibited and hence people do what they have to.
This culture is not about hardship; the average Joe will pay any amount for gas, as long as he has his comfort.
Maybe the very small enclosed vehicles could be an option because they do offer some degree of comfort.
We need to be realistic here, biking is a great joy when it is sunny, but that is all.
RickW
2 years ago
stump
Try getting a plumber or carpenter to bike to your house............summer or winter.
Stump
2 years ago
Plumbers and bikers
Hey Rick:
I'm sure you have a point. Perhaps you could spell it out for those of us who see no connection whatsoever to your statement other than the usual 'let's take one silly example and negate an entire range of valid uses."
Alive:
"This culture is not about hardship; the average Joe will pay any amount for gas, as long as he has his comfort."
Do you see the contradiction in your statement? Apparently people will simply trade one hardship for another. I'd sooner be wet than poor personally.
RickW
2 years ago
stump
Not much point in implementing any system that doesn't make provisions for ALL the citizens and the business they conduct.
I'm getting a touch tired of those who think that we all have office jobs we can bike to, or walk to. Have all the bike lanes you want, but keep in mind that a goodly few of us have to haul more than a change of underwear with us to work.
Stump
2 years ago
I agree completely
but, you'd have to make a much better case for plumbers and carpenters being unable to do their work simply because we actually implement the system you say you're supporting. Cars cause congestion, not trains or bikes. No one that I know of is suggesting a system that eliminates the ability of tradespeople to use trucks or vans to carry supplies or workers to the job site. Please point out my error if you feel otherwise.
RickW
2 years ago
Quote:No one that I know of
The "error" is in not surmising what happens to the existing roadways as and when mass transit becomes the norm, rather than a mere supplement. People no longer need live with a road connecting every house. Hence, for the necessary trades, some substitute for "trucks or vans" would have to be incorporated into mass transit.
It is no longer "good enough" to implement "Step One", then see how it goes. We've had too much of that up to now. We cannot afford the luxury of haphazard schemes. We need something much more comprehensive.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Is CN not a railroad?
RickW
... Campbell has donors among those who run car dealerships and construction companies, but doesn't have any connections to those who build railways.
Well then, how do we explain the rush for BC Rail privatization?
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Employers aren't interested in how you get to work
RickW
I'm getting a touch tired of those who think that we all have office jobs we can bike to, or walk to. Have all the bike lanes you want, but keep in mind that a goodly few of us have to haul more than a change of underwear with us to work.
Fundamentally, employers aren't interested in how the employee gets to work, only that they are regularly on time and are prepared to put in a shift, not nap at their workstation because they exhausted themselves in a 90 minute workout to work.
Even most offices make little provisions for cycling, few have showers for example.
I think it would be interesting if some of the data on biking/walking to work that's supposedly done by the City of Vancouver and Metro would contain some data on distrance travelled, occupation and industry in which the person is employed, and their education and salary ranges, and whether or not they have children to care for.
alive
2 years ago
are you reading me Stump?
your statement: "Apparently people will simply trade one hardship for another. I'd sooner be wet than poor personally."
Merely proves your point of view!
What I am stating is a fact of life!
People will pay outrageous amount of money for parking, gas and maintenance in order to have some comfort on their way to wherever they are going.
Biking makes them arriving wet and sweaty and that is not considered cool.
At least I offered an alternative, but you are not looking for solutions are you?
RickW
2 years ago
Rod
Because it was CN that took over, which has no intention of expanding or modifying, or upgrading into an viable LRT system?
Or I could pull a Stonewally Offal and say "I cannot comment as it is before the courts"....
Or I could surmise and say that, while there are plenty of outfits ready to build roads and bridges in this province, there are few with the expertise to build a viable LRT system. This means bringing people "from away", and perhaps provincial Liberal donors "from away" are rare birds......
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
RickW: My point is simply that railroad interests
... are among the business interests that do have the ear of the Campbell Govt. They aren't shutout by any means.
Another one is Rocky Mtn Railtours, a non-union railroad.
Stump
2 years ago
Alive
You said our culture is not about hardship but contradicted that by saying people will pay any amount to drive a car. That's clearly a hardship.
Rod:
If you rode for 90 minutes before work you'd probably live about 30 km from your job. I won't bore you with the statistics we both know, regarding just how far the average Metro resident actually lives from their job.
Further, just think of the many people who run, or swim, or work-out before going to work. Why aren't they asleep at their desk? What about the people who go for a run at lunch? I don't think moderate exercise before work is the negative you think it is. In fact, the science suggests it would be a benefit to employers, delivering wide awake, energized staff to the workplace first thing in the morning, instead of stressed out drivers who've spent an hour breathing carbon monoxide and other harmful gases. My personal experience is that I had more energy and felt more awake after riding 10-15 km before sitting down and getting to work.
Why don't we base this discussion on facts instead of erroneous suppositions? That would be the road to a productive exchange of ideas right?
Stump
2 years ago
RickW
Because all neighbourhoods will still have to have ways for garbage trucks and emergency vehicles to reach every home, I don't think there's going to be a situation where tradespeople wouldn't be able to get to a job site in their work vehicle.
Let's take a real world example. I live on 11th Ave. There's two streets and three alleys between Broadway and 12th Ave (major streets that aren't likely to ever see cars permanently banned from them. Surely, given this wealth of car-optimized road space, it would be possible for a plumber to get to my house even if some fraction of the pavement were turned over to pedestrians and other self-propelled travellers?
Luke Skywalker
2 years ago
Stump...
That can be somewhat akin to a work-out in a gym. But...
... unless your workplace has a shower to freshen yourself up...
Your co-workers and clientele might not appreciate the resultant b.o. ;)
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Stump: What statistics?
Stump
If you rode for 90 minutes before work you'd probably live about 30 km from your job. I won't bore you with the statistics we both know, regarding just how far the average Metro resident actually lives from their job.
Stump, I think you're being a bit optimistic here. I doubt that 90 minutes is going to actually yield 30 kms travelled, probably closer to the 15 to 20 kilometre range depending on the actual route involved.
The speed a cyclist can peddle and what they actually achieve over the course of the whole trip, given intersections, traffic, etc., are two quite different things. It's the same thing with travel by train or car, actual average speed over the whole trip is a fraction of what the vehicle or train can do on an open section of track or road between interruptions.
Now about these "statistics we both know". I would like to see them! I know the Census produces data on modes and distances, but I have never seen them broken down for cyclists and walkers by occupation/industry, income, education, etc. That should be possible, but given the small shares who bike and walk, there could be some difficulties if you were trying to do it by individual municipal origin-destination pairs.
Still, for the whole Metro area a decent comparison of the SES of bikers/walkers compared to the overall labour force should be doable, but I have never seen it done. I believe if it were done it would show that those who bike to work are better educated, better paid, tend to be in professional or semi-professional service jobs as opposed to trades or industry, and are younger than the overall labour force, perhaps an average age of 25 to 30 as opposed to close to 40. Biking to work is mostly a middle-class, white-collar, professional thing as far as I can tell.
As for Vancouver and Metro, I don't think they do any serious statiscal research work on biking to work at all. It's just a diversionary tactic for them. They'll do the participaction talk, but again, the amount of money they're going to put into bikeways is basically zippo. It's a talking point for their facilitators to hide behind at meet the public sessions. At one of them I tried to ask the cheery young facilitator what Metro's research showed was a reasonable outer limit for trips to work by bike. No answer.
Why don't we base this discussion on facts instead of erroneous suppositions? That would be the road to a productive exchange of ideas right?
I agree. That's why I am peeved at the attitude of Vancouver and Metro. It's just a big gimmick for them. They know damn well that if they wanted to radically increase the amount of bike traffic they would have to spend serious money on dedicated bikeways, and they're not going to go there.
Stump
2 years ago
Hi Rod:
I based my distance/time calculation on an avg speed of 20km/h. It's very achievable for a person of average fitness.
Luke:
I don't know about you, but I eat a healthy diet, shower regularly, and wear deodorant. I don't have B.O. even after moderate exercise. Neither do most other people. Perhaps you might want to see a doctor for your problem?
Most of the time I barely break a sweat riding unless it's the height of summer. Then I simply bring a dry shirt and pit-stick to my destination. I'm changed and smelling sweet before you've finished fumbling around in your change tray for parking money.
If you're really that worried about it, bring a hand towel and wash your underarms in the sink in the washroom. Last time I checked most businesses had a washroom.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Fitness isn't the issue.
Stump
I based my distance/time calculation on an avg speed of 20km/h. It's very achievable for a person of average fitness.
I would suggest that keeping a pace of 20 kmh going, including some hills, for 90 minutes is far beyond an average fitness level, if we're taking the average over both sexes from age 15 to 65. But even if we allow that, fitness isn't the real issue. It's routes, hazards, stops, starts, bikespace allowed on roadways, etc.
I can do the roughly 35 kilometres from my house up to Alouette Lake on a warm evening and back in about two hours on a moountain bike. It's a slow grind uphill, then an easy downhill back, so it nets out that way. A road bike would shorten that time. Serious bicyclers would chuckle at that, but a majority of people I meet think it's a really big slog.
If I try going out to Rolley Lake, along Dewdney Trunk Road with more traffic hazards, it's a different story. I have to allow three hours for that. Even in June or July, it can be dark by the time I am back to my place.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
From the Webpages of Metro Vancouver
Here is a short statistical blurb from Metro Vancouver using the Census data, 1996 and 2006, on commuting to work.
http://www.metrovancouver.org/about/publications/Publications/2006_commute_report_30oct2008.pdf
It shows distances travelled across all modes, but not separately for each mode. It shows that commuting by bicylce amounts to just under 2% of all work trips, a bit more than in the two Alberta metro areas or Toronto, the same practically as Montreal, but a fair bit less than the almost 6% in Victoria.
There is nothing on the SES of the various travellers by mode of travel.
Stump
2 years ago
The stat that matters
In that link is the one that shows Lions Bay residents as the only group with a median commute over 20km, with most trips overall (median figure) around the 10km mark. I would suggest that your average anyone of any age can manage a 10km bike ride five days a week, rain or shine, in under 45 minutes. I would go a step further and suggest that if you aren't willing to to so, barring extenuating circumstances such as disability, the requirement to bring heavy tools to a worksite, or similar, you need to up your game in terms of being a part of the solution. One should be at least attempting to find alternate means of getting to work 1 or 2 days a week to start, even if it means a small measure of inconvenience to do so. I believe it's the least we can do for our community and future generations. I'm sure my statement will bring cries of authoritarianism and so forth, as that tends to be the response such a position elicits. I would respond that the really nasty social engineers are the people who perpetuate a transportation system that makes it difficult for people to choose any form of transportation other than the most expensive (individually and for the community) and most harmful to our health.
Stump
2 years ago
avg speed
"I would suggest that keeping a pace of 20 kmh going, including some hills, for 90 minutes is far beyond an average fitness level, if we're taking the average over both sexes from age 15 to 65"
I would suggest you are wrong. 20 kph = 12.4 mph. Remember, most commutes are about 10 km. Even if it's impossible to ride that fast for 1.5 hrs (I repeat, I don't think so, based upon my observations)... it's certainly an attainable speed for half an hour.
The slowest female in 60-64 category in this year's Sun Run managed to run 10k in under 3 hours. Given that biking is roughly five times more efficient than walking... it becomes clear that more of us are capable of riding our bikes to work if we choose than are currently doing so. Physical ability isn't the issue and I wish we could put that mis-apprehension to bed for once and all and concentrate on the real impediments such as lack of safety on the road due to aggressive drivers and the hidden subsidies that have all of us paying for drivers' demands for more road space to be occupied by vehicles that are usually operating at 25% capacity.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
10 kms probably doable
I would agree that for most people who bicycle at all recreationally, doing most 10 km trips would be doable, if they were prepared to take all or most of an hour to do it.
They will need some special gear for rain, etc., and they will probably need to overcome their fear of sharing the road with high volumes of traffic.
But here's the catch. If larger numbers of people started bicycling, there would be too many bikes competing for the available bike lanes. You would have bicycle congestion, and angry demands from cyclists that the government increase the number of bike lanes.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
A few more statistics on cycling
http://www.toronto.ca/cycling/statistics.htm
Toronto has also use the Census data to show that travel by bike is disproportionately a younger male phenomenon, but women are starting to catch up.
http://www.bicyclinginfo.org/facts/statistics.cfm
Some American statistics.
RickW
2 years ago
stump
With Sweden pointing the way to zero waste, and LRT connections for every neighbourhood being the only practical solution for reducing carbon footprint, I wouldn't count on the roads being left in place - and maintained.
LRTs will have to be able to accommodate service vehicles. Grumpy has written about how this is being done in Germany to a certain extent.
In for a penny, in for a pound........
Stump
2 years ago
10km
"I would agree that for most people who bicycle at all recreationally, doing most 10 km trips would be doable, if they were prepared to take all or most of an hour to do it."
I don't want to hijack this thread about trains and go on and on about bikes, but if it took an hour to ride 10 km, we're talking about an avg speed of 6.2 mph. That's a fast walking pace. The numbers don't add up for me, based upon personal experience and observation of other cyclists. The average speed of cyclist is definitely more than 10kph IMO. This link supports my contention, so I include it.
http://cycling-london.blogspot.com/2006/04/cycle-mph-average-speed-in-london.html
Luke Skywalker
2 years ago
Stumps...
I personally love riding my bike recreationally during a sunny, warm off-day... Point Roberts, Boundary Bay foreshore, Coquihalla Canyon Provincial Park (the old CPR line), Myra Canyon, Kits, that sort of stuff.
But commuting to work everyday, 365 in the rainforest???
Man, most people eat a healthy diet, shower daily, and wear deodorant in my circles. But once you go to the gym or go for a long bike escapade, ya also better have a shower thereafter. Just a fact of life. You may not notice... but others certainly will. ;)
As for your maximum 15 km journey by bike in each direction, that's roughly akin to biking from the eastern boundary of the UBC UEL to Boundary Road at Hwy 1 in Burnaby... straight-lining it that is. That would take an eternity with vehicular traffic alongside, lights, stops, etc., etc.
I don't see anyone doing that everyday, esp. in each direction... and furthermore one needs proper biking attire... the suit and tie, or slacks and jacket will also get creased... and just won't cut it... same attire will also diminish one's ability to cycle. That's fer sure.
And daylight hours are slim pickins during the winter solstice while heading back and fro during the mornin' and evening commute. Risky and uncomfortable stuff.
And then there is the likelihood of gettin' soaked while biking during the monsoon season.
Don't know ANYBODY silly enough to do that 15 km in each direction at any time of the year.
Don't even know anyone silly enough to do same during the summer months for an everyday commute. 1 or 2 km in each direction maybe... but 15 km in each direction??? NADA. :D
Luke Skywalker
2 years ago
Smelser...
Biking from Kits to downtown VanCity over a couple of km on an ocassional sunny day during the summer months is one thing.
But white-collar folk are typically suit and tie folk. And then picture 'em lugging their briefcase and lunch by bike. That picture just doesn't jive.
And then the lingering sweaty aftermath is another factor to take into consideration. I know Stumps says that he doesn't sweat after a 15 km trek... butttttt... just like a workout in a gym most need a shower thereafter. ;)
As a matter of fact, I went boating on Allouette Lake on Sunday (after years of not being up there), and the road uphill is a bit of a haul.
If that's true... good for you. But Rod, your Facebook photo (the previous one) comes across showing that you are in your mid-50's and well... you appear to enjoy your cuisine. ;)
I guess that I'll have to get on my shoe-phone (yup, picked it up cheap from a "Get Smart" prop sell-off) and contact KAOS HQ... ooopppss.... that's PAB HQ... in order to have a confirmation of same. :D
RickW
2 years ago
Of course, we could "X" the LRT concept
and go this route:
http://discovermagazine.com/2001/nov/featlovin
and keep the road system we've got -- especially when combined with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driverless_car
Then bikes and autos could co-exist in relative harmony.
Stump
2 years ago
R U Serious?
"But white-collar folk are typically suit and tie folk. And then picture 'em lugging their briefcase and lunch by bike. That picture just doesn't jive."
Sorry, too many other people in other countries do it to make your assertion anything other than easily dis-proven hearsay.
As to showers... Fitness World offers corporate packages as low as $29 per month. I'm pretty sure if it is truly an issue for someone they can find a shower in the downtown core. Personally, I used to work at Metrotown, lived in Kits, and showered at Bonsor Rec Centre when I rode to work, which was most of the time. Certainly there's a number of places including some downtown hotels that offer fitness mbrships, which means even more choices for those who need to clean up before going to work. Let's concentrate on the real obstacles and stop giving credence to the imaginary ones. Lead, follow, or get out of the way please.
Stump
2 years ago
Colour me Silly
"Don't know ANYBODY silly enough to do that 15 km in each direction at any time of the year."
I rode from Burrard and Broadway to Metrotown. Pretty much daily/year-round for about three years.
Roger Neilsen used to bike from PoCo to the rink regularly IIRC.
Just because you don't know anyone who does it doesn't make those who do silly. Really Luke, troll harder. Maybe you can find a way to blame the NDP for your lack of knowledge on this topic!
Stump
2 years ago
FYI
"As for your maximum 15 km journey by bike in each direction, that's roughly akin to biking from the eastern boundary of the UBC UEL to Boundary Road at Hwy 1 in Burnaby... straight-lining it that is. That would take an eternity with vehicular traffic alongside, lights, stops, etc., etc."
It takes about 45 minutes give or take to ride 15 km. If one pushes hard it's about 35 minutes on a mountain bike, probably 30-ish at most on a road bike.
Sorry Luke, math is not your friend on this one.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
13 mph sounds high for urban traffic conditions
Stump
I don't want to hijack this thread about trains and go on and on about bikes, but if it took an hour to ride 10 km, we're talking about an avg speed of 6.2 mph. That's a fast walking pace. The numbers don't add up for me, based upon personal experience and observation of other cyclists. The average speed of cyclist is definitely more than 10kph IMO. This link supports my contention, so I include it.
http://cycling-london.blogspot.com/2006/04/cycle-mph-average-speed-in-london.html
That author states that 13 mph is his average speed. Personally, I think that's high for urban traffic conditions.
Stump
2 years ago
Opinions
Your entitled to your opinion Rod but let's be clear that that is all it is. I'm not sure how many times I will have to provide you with evidence to the contrary to clear up this important facet of the discussion. What's the definition of insanity again? I must be nuts because I doubt I'll stop trying. I'd appreciate some attempt on your part to make a case for your position that's based upon more than just your personal capabilities. To quote Messrs Python, simple nay-saying doesn't constitute an argument.
morechatter
2 years ago
Voters feel railroaded
Well you have been but cheer up just get on the phone to your local broadcaster and journalist and let them know how you feel.
And presto like magic, well not quite like magic as it took them three kicks at the can before Canwest pushed its agenda to public the Rav line. So ring, ring, ring until they are off the hooks letting media know how readers feel about being railroaded by governemnt and media as its like they are one in the same.
And its not like the media has any use for the democratic process. So lets go back and vote again as public says we are not happy with the Liberals as many feel railroaded and don't even get me on Harper.
morechatter
2 years ago
Don't forget bikes
And it was funny as I was talking to someone who dosen't bike and was telling them horror stories of sharing the road with cars. What are you doing on the road, they asked me and I just started to laugh because its true there is no safe place on the roads for cyclists unless they are on a path. I hope that changes as a bike and a car are no match and drivers don't care about passengers what are the odds for the bikers?
Getting around on your bike is so good in so many ways as it not only saves energy but the energy spent in calories can be a live safer.
And of course I feel like a kids again as its their for all to enjoy, not just adults.
morechatter
2 years ago
And those Stats
Can be an indication of a variety of things, and one being there is no safe place for a cyclist to travel. So what can be done to change the stats as its no to rail and no to bikes and yes to roads for automobiles. And the Sky's the limit for planes as 480,000 tonnes to be dropped by BC holding a party. So whats the game plan again if British Colombians are going to live a truly green life style a good place to start is at home. And rail and bikes along with green gardens and healthy children seem more the way to go. As at present many of British Colombians futures are going hungry and its air continues to be polluted while there is no money for improvements. As tax payers are gouged to the limits as many are no longer on the pay roll.
Rod Smelser
2 years ago
Most people under-estimate their commutes
Stump
Your entitled to your opinion Rod but let's be clear that that is all it is.
In my experience most people tend to under-estimate their commuting time whatever mode they are using. People will tell me that they live near UBC and are at work downtown in 25 minutes by bus.
The problem is that I have taken that same bus going the other direction, and if you wanted to make a class or appointment there on time, you had to be boarding the bus an hour ahead of time.
I think people tend to under-report their commuting times, in the same way that they tend to under-report their consumption of liquor and tobacco. It's just one of those things. And if the commuters are unconsciously low-balling their time estimates, they are at the same time high-balling their speed estimates.
If so, it would tend to play havoc with all the surveys that are done, unless the questions are asked in a very structured, very detailed fashion, tracking times to start, times to leave, which bus/train taken, etc.
Stump
2 years ago
commuting time
Fair enough Rod. For the record my times from Kits to Metrotown are accurate (35 - 45 minutes), because I was using a cycle computer to measure time/distance. I was also 30 pounds heavier and a half-a-pack a day smoker at the time too, hence my belief it's do-able for most folks.
sicntired
2 years ago
Pacific corridor
We have been hearing all this talk about the environment and here we have an article about one of the best bets for cleaning up our carbon footprint and not one word about the benefits to the ecology of the pacific coastal area.Has the environment become such a over blown topic that people won't even mention it in an article for rail?This is just one of many ways that the environment and the economy go hand in hand.Don't ever expect the Harper government to get anything that is an environmental boon.That they don't understand the economy is now a well proven fact as well.Who elected these bufoons anyway?