Fraser Institute

If the Fraser Institute want's to provide input into education in BC, should we as citizen's not have the right to know who this group represents? Who pays the bills for the Fraser Institute? It is not the individuals we see on TV or read in the paper. These representatives of the Fraser Institute, such as Preston Manning, are nothing more then a public relations arm of the worlds largest corporations and banks. So, what interest does Imperial Oil or the Royal Bank, for example, have in the education of our children? I would really like to know and I bet you would as well. Shall we ask them?

One line says it all

"This is a privitization goverment"

dorothy

Yes, and it should be done in a manner that encompasses their own cultural milieu. I'd thought that we had given up trying to make "white men" out of FN a long time ago.

Apparently, I am wrong. I wonder how the Fraser Institute would treat FN students? I suppose by ignoring them, as they do any class that threatens to disrupt their agenda.

Privatization is Campbell's Liberal's game

This is now an old story now, that we have watched play out over 8 years in the USA with the king of privatization, George W. Bush having virtually privatized the world's financial system, the war in Iraq and more into bankruptcy. Gordon Campbell is just another Neo-con trying to rid the world of socialism by privatizing profits and socializing the losses.

George W. is just about history and good riddence. Now we have to take the same road and throw out the Campbell Liberals.

Teachers are the

Teachers are the professionals that know more about the kids they work with to have them do their best. Governemtns like to keep it simple, write a test and we will know all about the kids. A plan that isn't that great. I remember one school where a little kid we knew told us he sat in a cetain row as all the dumb kids were in the same row. Sort of sad. He was working so hard to get the stuff sorted and being indicated as dumb sure didn't help That sort of teaching went away a long time ago. Now folks like the Frazer Institute want to put schools in rows. Who loses? well the kids of course.

good timing

This story appears the same day the BCTF starts its pre-election advertising campaign. Hmmm.

BCTF On the Wrong Side Of Public Opinion On This One...

Firstly, the FSA was implemented ~10 years ago by the New Democrats in conjunction with the teaching profession and other educational professionals. Just another analytic tool in assisting to improve education outcomes.

Now ten years later, the BCTF decides to boycott the FSA. Why? For political reasons, months before a provincial election. Never an apparent peep before that.

Reminds me of one former NDP cabinet minister's views of the BCTF executive: left and hard left in a moderate centrist province.

First Nations leaders also support the FSA to assist in raising completion rates of students within their communities.

The right-wing Fraser Institute and their useless school rankings... that's what this is all about! The Fraser Institute is as useless as the left-wing Canadian Centre For Policy Alternatives, IMHO. And really, who cares?

Based upon all of the media reports surrounding this issue, the BCTF has been receiving considerable negative coverage.

And that about sums it up. Way to go BCTF, you sure have misread public opinion on this one.

Google harder Luke

"Now ten years later, the BCTF decides to boycott the FSA. Why? For political reasons, months before a provincial election. Never an apparent peep before that."

In under ten seconds (including the time it took to type the query) I had a page of results from 2007, 2006, etc concerning the BCTF opposition to standardized testing.

How could an avowed political junkie not know this controversy has been ongoing?

Or you could RTFA

"The long simmering fight over the worth of the test has for years pitted the Fraser Institute and B.C. Education Ministry against the B.C. Teachers Federation, both sides finding allies among parents, academics, aboriginal leaders and just about any other group with a stake in how schools can be made to work best for kids."

Dump the tests

There is a little school known as North Oyster. It is a rural School that has many first nations children with learning disabilities,these children need help. Every year the school ranks at or near the bottom and every year they are ignored. These kids need more one on one learning. All these tests do is say hey don't send your kid to this school. The amazing thing is that many years the top student in Ladysmith Secondary came out of this low life school. And it is a great school ,just too badly ignored as there is not enough money to really help these children.

let's finally go all the way

let's privatize not just the schools, but also all of the hospitals and clinics, privatize all the jails and prisons, privatize our courts, and replace the governments and elections with boards of directors and AGMs.
that way, all agendas are out in the open, nothing is hidden, and the rest of us can go back to our little lives of consuming whatever corporate products and services we can afford.
give over all control to the ruling elites.
i'm all for it.

John Savory - it's a coincidence

To answer your 'hmmmmm', the reporter began on this story before Christmas, picked it up again late last week, and I posted it today because the Vancouver School Board's letter to parents was in the news and provided a 'hook.' Please note, as well, we sought comment from all sides, even if not all sides provided it.
No conspiracy with the BCTF here.

Dorothy and Rick

Re your comment:

" How about aiding and abetting the aboriginal students, so they have a chance to obtain better results?"

Sorry, but your ideological paranoia is showing, and so instead of looking foolish, perhaps you might do some research.

No group of students receives more special consideration in our schools, as school boards strive to reduce the high number of drop-outs among FN students. This is esp apparent in rural and Northern schools where the curriculum is dumbed down to accomodate them.

Teachers adjust their marking to accomodate them, and this shows up as low marks when standardised testing is applied. In an effort to raise self-esteem, native studies are added to the curriculum, replete with the now routine charges that FNs have been treated badly.

As an inducement to attend classes. FN students - in my district at least - are paid $4.50 a day just to show up.

The basic problem is not that FN students are less intelligent than anyone else, but instead it is that they are far less motivated.

The first part of the problem is the cradle-to-the-grave welfare system that dominates most FN communities, and which destroys initiative. The second part is that FNs are only a few generations away from holding values and traditions unsuitable for today's times.

For example, knowledge was passed along orally, whereas we rely heavily upon writing. Literacy is still not common on the reserves. For us, schooling is seen as the doorway to a prosperous lifestyle, but the FN notion that individual wealth is greed still lingers on. Our tradition of using capital has yet to be learned, though that is changing fast.

To be sure, all of this is in flux, and new ways are being accepted. The purpose of this post then, is just to voice my extreme displeasure with this constant whining by some people that we are "oppressing" FNs who are helpless to respond - except by accepting money, of course.

are tests worthwhile?

My father is a retired educator with broad general experience and expertise in mathematics at the elementary school level.

His dream is detailed testing of students' arithmetic and math skills, tied to an assessment of missing concepts which are clearly defined by research.

For example, you can't learn to add 1 plus 1 until you understand the concept of addition. So schedule that student for a brief update on adding.

This is valid as long as the testing methods are sensible and the assumption that students should learn to add (or other curriculum requirements) are necessary.

I think that this is a valid use of student testing. Not for a grade, but to discover their strengths and weaknesses.

Just like medical tests this data is private and personal and should not be shared to average out the quality of a school -- in fact how could it reflect the value of the school or its teachers, it simply reflects the ability of the student in specific areas.

The US No Child Left Behind Act has received extensive criticism centred on "teaching for the test" instead of student-centric learning.

I'm inclined to side with my Dad as far as the value and correct use of testing. He would be the last to say that it should be used simply for grades or heaven forbid to rate schools themselves.

@ mcdull

I myself went to North Oyster.

North Oyster had an excellent drama program with a core group of teachers and produced plays far exceeding any other plays acted by 8-12 year olds that i've ever seen. Many of these students (or at least a disproportionate amount compared to other feeder schools for Ladysmith) continued and were successful in theatre in Ladysmith

It should be noted that not only did this school get a 0/10 several years, but every school that did get a 0/10 in most years were predominantly aboriginal or isolated.

The Fraser Institute's methods are flawed and don't weight participant percentage as it should be. As a student, I recall writing all three FSA exams. All the kids in my grade 4 class wrote the exam. The kids with Fetal Alcohol Syndrom, learning disabilities, ADD etc. all wrote it.

By grade 7 and ten the general attitude of students was 'screw this' as it was a lame test with no bearing on your mark later. Being a keener, I did try on these tests, but gave them little thought before or after.

With this being said, the differences between private and public schools are heightened. Public schools obviously care more about their pupils than their image, so the drive to do well on this garbage test, other than the usual 'try your best' was not there. Having not experienced the private system I can not say if this is the case or if there is more pressure for students to do well. Private schools get most of their funding from parents, and there for if they have a bad reputation they may see a decline in enrolment. This is reflected in the wildly varying participation percentages amongst private schools.

Top of rankings today, going down tomorow

Even staff and students in a top private school take the Fraser Institute rankings with a grain of salt. Every private and public school I've taught in puts community near the top of the list of priorities. It's very difficult to quantify community culture with a test. People who look at the Fraser Institute rankings (foreign parents?) are doing their children a disservice.

I see many students who are "book smart" but can't handle practical problems in life... Like a student who can calculate the time period of a pendulum but can't tie a knot to hang one, or one who thinks he knows everything but doesn't take the time to listen.

These life skills can't be tested and that's why top universities rely on teacher reference letters. A good gauge of a student are the outside school activities they do while maintaining a good, albeit not top, grade.

Red herrings, or is that my sunglasses?

“..Yes, and it should be done in a manner that encompasses their own cultural milieu. I'd thought that we had given up trying to make "white men" out of FN a long time ago.”

So, making sure people pick up the basics and the not-so-basic stuff in school is ‘making white men out of them’? I thought it was simply doing what teachers are being paid to do – making available to every student, in a for him/her useful form, the means to learn all the skills that will stand them in good stead throughout life, and make it possible for them to realize their potential, be it whatever colour of he rainbow.

The compatibility with someone’s cultural milieu ain’t the job of the school, it’s the job of the parents and the community they choose to affiliate with.

I greatly resent the implication, that somehow, being a first nations child should put you in a special category that means that only in your own cultural terms can you perform, that reaching academic excellency would somehow translate into being ‘made white’. I believe this is a lie and a cop-out to hide that we are positively trashing these people and not allowing them equal footing in a hundred little ways. And so, seeing this thinking perpetuated here, I must ask: What are we afraid of?

I also think it is a great red herring in this context. I was trying to address the practice of shooting the messenger, or the message, instead of facing the issues that the message might reveal. I don’t care if the Fraser institute is made up of a bunch of big corp goons. That doesn’t necessarily mean that others cannot make use of their results. Turning around, as another poster does, and attacking in the mode of ‘can we not ‘get’ these people for something they’ve done/who they are, and thereby silence them?’ Is along the same lines. Ranting about the source is not going to get the issue to go away, and it’s a less-than-honest way of operating. This isn’t about saving face, or butts, of a bunch of adults who feel threatened or ‘embarrassed’. We should feel ashamed that this is our focus here. I think it illustrates eloquently enough, why we have a problem in the first place. Our priorities are screwed up, that’s why.

Private schools are for

Private schools are for losers who can't excel in public. Spread the word.

Right on worrywart!

The BCTF has been opposed to this kind of testing and the Fraser Institutes ranking of schools ever since the tests were introduced. There are absolutely no distinctions made between the demographic of each school and the rankings are at best a hindrance to any positive educational goals. Unless you are determined to show that private schools are better because they exclude students with special needs or who require any kind of costly assistance. It is a farce. We cater to the worst motives at the risk of providing a good education for the public. The government is complicit as it consistently used education as a whipping boy and whenever they need more money then education is cut.

Unless you can factor say, demographic and cultural difference into any ranking the motives for testing are suspect. It is an attempt to evaluate anything but the performance of students and to do it in a illogical fashion.

The BCTF would be unprofessional if it did not protest such nonsense.

"The BCTF's FSA campaign is

"The BCTF's FSA campaign is not about politics,"

I almost fell out of my seat laughing. Is there anything the BCTF does that isn't about politics?

How about mentioning that

How about mentioning that the tests were introduced by the NDP, and that the BCTF had no problem with them until the Fraser Institute started using the data to produce its report card?

Maybe that would put the comments about the "privatization government" in context. I have a hard time believing the NDP is the party of privatization...

Also, as far as the tests being bad for the schools that show up as "poor", that's a load of crap. I'm a parent. I live in an area where the schools are ranked so-so. My kids have no choice but to go there. I (and other parents) want to know where the school stands relative to other schools, and when it comes out lower down, we set about trying to help make things better.

If you don't measure performance, you can't make it better. If the test wasn't being administered, would anyone even know that the kids in those schools perform poorly relative to other schools? No-one would care. At least now, it's out there, and it's possible for people to try make a difference.

Really, covering things up never helps in the long run. When those kids get out of school and into the real world, there's nowhere to hide. The BCTF's opposition is disingenuous. What they're really saying is that they don't want anyone, least of all parents, having any opportunity to rate, or even know, how well the teachers in their schools are teaching their kids.

Luke Sywalker: DO YOU HAVE A SOURCE?

Luke Skywalker:
First Nations leaders also support the FSA to assist in raising completion rates of students within their communities.

Luke, do you have a handy quote or other source for this assertion? Who are the Aboriginal leaders who support the FSA in its present form?

Two other questions I have about this test are these. Who designs and standardizes this test? Is it done by Ministry of Education staff or by some company/foundation that's in the business of standardized tests such as LSAT and GRE? I have seen many news stories about the FSA and the controversy it involves, such as those by Janet Steffenhagen of the Vancouver Sun, but I have never seen any discussion of who actually develops this test and who "tests the test" prior to implementation.

Also, and again to Luke himself, do you think it's just the BCTF who are taking a political stance on this matter, or are there people in the BC Liberal Party who are also politically motivated to seek controversy and conflict? The reason I ask is because an election is imminent, and the BC Liberals are in the business of politics, are they not?

Skills instead of Data

"When those kids get out of school and into the real world, there's nowhere to hide."

When those kids get out of school they are going to have to know how to learn and think, not regurgitate answers like bio-Googleheads.

I'd sooner my kid learned how to learn rather than be trained to score highly so they can be another data point on a graph.

If you want smart children, figure out why children love to learn (they actually do) and why they find tests boring (who doesn't) and then build a school system that builds thinkers rather than cogs for the machine. Oops, that's how revolutions start.

values

" The second part is that FNs are only a few generations away from holding values and traditions unsuitable for today's times."

It's today's values that are unsuitable.

The people at the Fraser

The people at the Fraser Institute should read "The Smug Minority" by Pierre Berton.

yet another pathetic example

yet another pathetic example of the bctf using our kids to fight their ridiculous crusades. the truth is out there: they are opposed to testing of any kind b/c teachers can be evaluated by using the test results of their students. this makes it more difficult to protect those teachers who are lazy or simply incompetent. those who say that these tests stress the kids are simply liars, or they're not doing their job properly, as the kids are supposed to be told that the tests will not affect their grade and will not be used to assess them personally.

Wired

anybody catch HBO`s "The Wire"
They covered standarized testing really well. The teacher ends up teaching to the test....its about power and CONTROL...the numbers can be manipulated and used for the political ends of those in CONTROL.
Nothing to do with kids.

evaluation

Will we be evaluating based on the best results or the worst, or simply averaging out the results?

No matter which method you choose, some teachers face huge obstacles to teaching in disadvantaged or learning disabled kids, others get a class full of keeners. Further, this disparity can change from year to year.

You might as well suggest you can judge a farmer by his yield and ignore whether or not there was drought in that growing cycle.

Sheesh. Further evidence critical thinking isn't taught anymore. But, hands up who knows who the fourth prime minister was!

/don't know, don't care. That's what books are for, to hold information until I need it.

stump

Three things:

1. The BCTF's motivation is political, not concern for the welfare of our kids. Note how they like to make out that this testing is a creation of the evil BC Libs, when it fact it was a creation of the NDP. Note also that their opposition only started when the FI started their report card thing.

2. I also prefer my kids to learn how to learn and how to think for themselves. Nonetheless, people are faced with taking tests of one kind or another every day in the real world. Learning how to prepare for tests, and dealing with the pressures of tests, are relevant skills for kids to learn.

3. Learning to deal with things that we find boring and don't like to do are also important skills. Many aspects of day to day life are both boring and unpleasant, but we have to take that with the good stuff.

I'll agree I'm biased in one sense - I work in a technical environment. Nature is not open to debate, or forgiving - you get something right, or it doesn't work, and you fail. Whatever path my kids go down, I want them to know that some things are not negotiable; that you can fail at things, with unpleasant consequences; and not doing (the sometimes tedious) preparation is a sure way to fail.

If they have that knowledge and experience when they emerge into the real world, I'm quite sure they'll do well, whatever it is they want to do.

I don't see how the course advocated by the BCTF helps children prepare for the harsh realities of the world that awaits them in any way.

test

1) First of all, I don't really care if the motivation is political. I care about what's good for children. Standardized testing won't help children.

2) "Nonetheless, people are faced with taking tests of one kind or another every day in the real world."

Really? When was the last time you had to take a test?

The real world is a complex place where solutions come from creativity and thinking, not rote recitation.

3) The world is what we make it. Teach children it's a dull and dangerous place and you create fearful drones incapable of taking calculated risks and reaping the rewards.

You are talking about teaching consequences IMO and that won't be learned from standardized testing.

Timing, politics and FSAs

1) TIMING: This controversy goes back several years. The BCTF boycott was first voted on last March - almost a year ago - with ratification last fall. A raging debate has been going on ever since over at Vancouver Sun Education reporter Janet Steffenhagen's blog.
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/reportcard/default.aspx

SFU Education Dean Paul Shaker has featured concerns about the FSA and broader questions around how to assess student performance on two episodes of his monthly Shaw Cable TV show on education, "Education Matters". A bit dry, but very informative for anyone who cares to rise above the politics.

Watch the August show (which Shaw is rebroadcasting this month) at http://www.vimeo.com/1473107. From there you can access the April show which deals with broader assessment issues.

2) POLITICS: The FSA is not the issue that the BCTF would like to be electioneering on (their new campaign focusses on the lack of classroom resources that contribute to poor results).

The Education Minister and teh BC Liberals are the ones who would rather keep talking about FSAs instead because it keeps the focus on teacher competence and teacher accountability, instead of confronting the broader reality that so many students are failing because their government hasn't done enough to ensure they are properly supported, and that at least part of that relates to under-resourcing.

From a political perspective, the timing of this debate does not help the BCTF.

3. FSAs: As to the FSA, the record speaks for itself. Educational achievement has been flat-lined for a decade in BC. Every year the FSAs show that groups like Aboriginal students and inner city kids are being left behind but nothing is ever done about it. What's the point of repeatedly identifying a problem if no one is going to fix it? That's why people lose faith in the FSA, that's why they no longer want to keep hearing about it. Can you blame them, given that the very schools that serve the most at-risk students are punished every time the Fraser Institute rankings are published, demolishing teacher and student morale, chasing away good teachers and potential enrolment, and thus resulting in further budget and staffing cuts, leaving them even less able to cope than ever with their challenges.

The FSAs can serve a limited useful purpose - i.e. tracking broad long-term trends - if a number of problems are addressed. But no tool will provide the intended benefits if the stakeholders don't have any confidence in its usefulness. To restore that confidence, we need to start fixing the problems identified with the FSA and tie the FSA to a follow-up program that mandates extra supports for students identified as failing. Then we can finally stop talking about this and get on with educating our kids.

One thing is certain.

Given the state of the world today, the education system of the past which suits the Fraser Institute and others, has been a dismal failure. All those qualities and learning outcomes which might have prevented today's mess could not be measured and will not be measured by today's testing. Thank heaven a few teachers still understand what their mission is and avoid focusing on the regurgitation of useless facts.

f00bar: WHO IS BEING POLITICAL?

f00bar:
1. The BCTF's motivation is political, ...

I'll agree I'm biased in one sense - I work in a technical environment. ...

I will ask again the same question I asked Luke Skywalker, who is being political? Is it possible that the BC Liberals, facing an election in five months and being in the business of politics, enjoy the idea of another round of controversy in which they and their publicists and media spinners and paid bloggers can portray the BCTF as an institution run by ideologues who are irresponsibly opposed to the real interests of parents and pupils, much as you and others have here? Is this a politically winning hand for the BC Liberals, in your opinion?

You state with certainty that you know for a fact that the BCTF's one and only quarrel with the FSA is political. How do you know that for a fact? Can you tell me how the FSA is developed? Is it the work of the Ministry of Education itself, or of some company or foundation which is in the business of standardized testing?

And tell me this, f00bar, if your goal really is standardized testing, which you say it is, why not rely on international or at least interprovincial tests, such as TIMMS, for mathematics and sciences and PISA, for reading as well as mathematics and science. Why does BC need its own, particular test?

You claim to work in a harsh, unforgiving, technical environment. Can you tell me what that environment is? It wouldn't happen to be applied political science by any chance, would it?

stump

1. Fine, the politics of the matter annoys me. But it's not particularly relevant, so let's drop that.

2. When last did you have a job interview? That's a test. When last did you have to get some work done on a tight deadline? That's a test. When last did you have to come up with a solution to some problem? That's a test. If you're a lawyer, when last did you fight a court case? A doctor - when last did you diagnose someone with a serious illness. etc etc

It's not clear to me what "rote recitation" and taking tests have to do with each other.

3. Where did I say to teach kids that the world is dull and dangerous?

I'm saying to teach kids that there are dull things in the world, and sometimes to get at the good stuff, you have to go through the dull stuff. You might not like it, but it's true.

I'm also saying to teach kids that sometimes you're going to fail, and it won't be pleasant. It's bad for kids to know that? It's bad for kids to know how to deal with that? If you can't learn to deal with failure, you're not going to have a very interesting, happy or productive life. And you certainly won't be in a position where you can take risks and reap rewards, because by definition, risks sometimes lead to failure.

Political agenda

Before learning that, for instance, private schools don't have to disclose as much info about themselves on the MinEd web site as public schools do, and other relevant factors, I, too, thought the BCTF was making a big "political" fuss about nothing.
But having re-read Judith Ince's story in The Tyee from last July, I understand that the Fraser Institute and its cronies are set to privatize the school system -- not a good idea, in my mind.
Cream the creme de la creme off the public schools and send them to private schools -- what will be the result?
Like the Centre for Policy Alternatives says, this is very similar to the drive to privatize health care.
If we are going to test kids -- and I'm not entirely against tests -- then at least design them so we can find out what they are really learning.
And the Fraser Institute's rankings should not be front-page news. However, as a former journalist for a major metro daily, I realize that's a dream.
The BCTF is not getting its message across, and that's not for lack of trying.
A complex subject like a child's education is difficult to reduce to a 60- and 30-second sound bite.

tests

"When last did you have a job interview? That's a test."

When was the last time you went to a job interview that required you to regurgitate facts rather than think on your feet and show drive and initiative? Can't teach those with standardized testing.

"I'm also saying to teach kids that sometimes you're going to fail, and it won't be pleasant"

Basing so much on FSA tests only encourages teachers to drill students on the test subjects so no one fails. It won't encourage teaching the skills that are needed in today's world. Much easier to 'fail' a child when the consequences won't affect every child in the school through the outcomes Name outlined in a post just-upthread.

"I'm saying to teach kids that there are dull things in the world"

Nothing's dull if you choose to find a way to make it interesting. Doing the dishes is dull, unless I do it when As It Happens is on and I can listen and learn while I scrub (one example). I can come up with many more.

Here's a thought. Let's teach kids the world is a fascinating place. That chores can be a science lesson or a chance to get some exercise. That for every dull job, there's a person who takes joy in it. I hate bookkeeping, but there are some who take pleasure in its minutae. Some hate writing, but I love using my strengths to make something useful or entertaining.

Standardized testing doesn't allow for these variations in our interests or learning styles. It's only use would be to point out a child's 'need to improve' areas. The vast majority of teachers already know what their students need to work on. If we gave them the tools to do that instead of just pointing out what's already obvious, we'd be helping these kids and letting teachers do their job more effectively.

What school taught me about failing

or, what school failed to teach me...

There is nothing wrong with testing, it is a sensible way to find out if someone has learned what they are being taught. Yes, it makes sense that kids should learn how to cram and prepare for a test, and that one must do unpleasant things sometimes.

What bothers me is when these tests are used to DEFINE their subject as though they are some magic scientific method and that the results can be viewed and understood in the same way 1+1=2.

I did well on tests, got high marks, and was marked 'gifted' back in public school.

My brother, he tested badly and got marked with a 'learning disability'.

When I was faced with something actually hard, I tended to think, man, I'm smart, it must take some genius to figure this out and then I'd leave it.
When my brother couldn't do something, he'd think, 'well, of course I can't, I'm stupid'.
From what I can tell, my brother is a pretty smart kid, and I'm merely a quick study.
If the tests are supposed to help teach someone how to learn and to work hard, they certainly 'failed' us.

As mentioned in another comment, the focus of testing should be to REVEAL strengths and weaknesses.
Instead, the message seems to be more like 'If you fail this test, you are surely screwed', which cultivates an intense fear of failure, one way or another.

Sure there are 'do or die' situations in the real world, but I've found them to be in the minority.
Failure is often a great learning opportunity. In fact, the successful people I've met view failure as part of the process. A chance to get better, or to take a different approach.

I really wish someone had taught me this when I was 7.

Even if we were to pretend that the FI ranking of schools is scientific and meaningful, the testing needed to get those numbers would still be a waste of time.

The time spent teaching to these tests would be better spent teaching kids how to learn and trying to help them identify their strengths and weaknesses.

So, I'm for testing, but not this kind of testing, nor the kind of focus the system puts on it.

Whoa...

It's quite a leap to say that because I'm annoyed at the BCTF for the politics of their opposition, and because I don't have such a profound fear of tests that I somehow
a. Am a govt supporter.
b. Have standardized testing as goal.

So, to answer your questions - as far as I'm aware, the FSA was introduced by the previous NDP government, because it was felt that the previous approach of sampling results wasn't good enough. As far as I'm aware, the test is still the same as it always was. As far as I can recall, the BCTF never had the profound opposition to the testing when the NDP was in power, and particularly before the FI started using (or abusing, choose your flavour) the results.

So, that's my basis for saying the BCTF's opposition is purely political.

Secondly, I am just a poor engineer with an interest in the world around me. When I build something, and I screw up, it just doesn't work, end of story. There's no negotiating with the laws of physics (or large software vendors, but that's another story).

I don't have any involvement with any political organization. I take an interest in the issues. I vote when there are elections. And I don't like the fact that the BCTF plays politics with my children's education.

Why is it that when someone has a contrary opinion you have to resort to personal attacks?

perhaps

"As far as I can recall, the BCTF never had the profound opposition to the testing when the NDP was in power, and particularly before the FI started using (or abusing, choose your flavour) the results."

Perhaps the tests were just one of those dull things that have to be done. You know what I mean? The sort of thing we are all supposed to learn to accept and get out of the way. :-)

But the Fraser Institute has turned them into something else, something that makes it harder for teachers to do their job and does a disservice to the kids? For political reasons.

I THOUGHT ENGINEERS MADE A GOOD INCOME

f00bar
So, to answer your questions - as far as I'm aware, the FSA was introduced by the previous NDP government, because it was felt that the previous approach of sampling results wasn't good enough. ...

So, that's my basis for saying the BCTF's opposition is purely political.

f00bar, can you tell me, really can anyone tell me, which institution actually developed and maintains this test? Is it Ministry of Education career bureaucrats, the people Vaughn Palmer calls "educrats", or is it some other company or agency or foundation which is in the permanent business of standardized testing?

You make a point of saying that this test was developed when the NDP was in office. So what? If the political affiliation of the government has nothing to do with the matter, why make a point of this?

I would still like to know, f00bar, if you think that the BC Liberals have any political motivations in relation to the FSA tests? Do you think it's possible that Liberal Party election strategists and spin doctors see this as an opportunity to demonize teachers and their federation in advance of a general election this May?

Secondly, I am just a poor engineer with an interest in the world around me.

A poor engineer? I thought engineers made a pretty good income. In fact, I thought the usual line one hears from business oriented people is that if you want to make a good income you should choose a field like engineering or commerce, and avoid "soft" disciplines like education and social work and the liberal arts.

How else would you asses the value of education?

Education must be evaluated. We can't give teachers full licence to grade their own students. Kids are graduating from elementary school to go into high school. We have an obligation to test language skills and math, if only to keep the playing field level.

Teachers have no right to refuse to administer an exam if it is mandated. It may offend their sensibilities but we all get graded in some way.

I was one of the last to take the infamous Eleven Plus exam in England. That exam determined whether I went to Grammar School or Secondary School. It was a draconian streaming tool and it scarred some for life. The exams in BC would not stream students to different schools, but they are an essential part of the quality assurance process. Teachers who refuse to administer them are in a conflict of interest.

Rod

This is the best I can do in relation to who develops and maintains the tests:

http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/assessment/fsa/development.htm

To summarize "teams of practicing classroom teachers and subject area specialists".

(BTW, stump, I think that was a test I just took :-)

My point about the test being initiated under the NDP gov is that it tends to make one think that the test, the process behind it, and the rationale are reasonably apolitical (as far as it's possible in BC). It's the BCTF that's saying the sole purpose of the test is political.

I don't really think the BC Libs care one way or another about the test. It's been going on under different govts, and it just continues to go on. If the BCTF and Vancouver school board hadn't made a big fuss about it, would we even be having this discussion now? No-one would even notice. And before you jump down my throat, I know they're politicians and they're going to spin the controversy as much as possible for petty political advantage. Just like all the other pols in the province.

Engineers do just fine. While they're employed. When the s..t hits the fan in the economy, they're the first to get hit. And when it doesn't, their jobs go to India or China. No comfy tenure and nice pension benefits in this field....

stump, handwritten

The main value of the tests to me as a parent is to see how my kid's school compares to other schools. Not how the kids themselves are doing. I don't know anyone (other than the people opposing the test) who use it to evaluate the kids themselves.

And here we come to the heart of the matter. This test ends up being an evaluation of the teachers and the school, not the kids. Hence the opposition of everyone in the education field.

Yeah, it's evil, it doesn't reflect the complete nature of the environment etc etc. I accept all those arguments. But there is no other way for me to even begin to judge how good the education my children are getting is. Because the entire education profession refuses to allow itself to be evaluated by outsiders.

So, what am I supposed to do? Just sit around and hope my kids are getting taught well? Send them to a private school (not an option, really). Put them in extra lessons? I'm open to suggestions from the profession as to what else can be done to allow parents to evaluate how good their schools and teachers are.

Finally, people have always said, "you (your kid) goes to school ____?!" with approval/disapproval. It never needed the FI or standardized testing or anything like that to bring out the class warfare. That's a fact of life.

the Institution

Wasn`t that long ago when the Fraser Institute was just a few kooks and whackos that nobody paid no mind to...now...seems they are being taken seriously?
Well they be a good example of how the standardized testing data can be used for rigid ideological purposes.
Good on the teachers for resisting this creepy stuff.

Value of testing

"The main value of the tests to me as a parent is to see how my kid's school compares to other schools"

I can see this being useful, but I think the point of the argument against the testing is that it does not serve this purpose.

The FI rankings tell us only that, on average, the teachers in school A are better/worse than the teachers in school B at getting kids to succeed on standardized tests. And even that is only true if you pretend that all the kids are identical little robots.

Given the variation in students that the schools deal with, this is somewhat like testing doctors by evaluating the health of their patients. Something tells me doctors wouldn't go for that.

I remember when I went to school, there were excellent teachers, and there were crappy ones, and it was generally luck of the draw which one you got.

Dangerous

There is no doubt in my mind that the BCTF has and continues to be the most dangerous organization in the BC Education system.

I have two boys in the public school system, yet I am not convinced they have received a satisfactory education. In the first instance there is way too much intervention & propaganda dictated to the teachers by the BCTF that clouds the freedom of teachers to teach. Secondly, the continuing unjustified screeching from the BCTF, the threats of the BCTF to teachers has created an adversarial system.

Education is fundamental, teachers impart information and skills, studends absorb the information at various levels of intensity, the system says you must/should meet a certain standard to either proceed to the next level, or graduate. In order to establish the students qualification, a system must have tests. Simple. But the system must also know that all the parts of the education system is functioning in like manner, thus, a need exists to compare one class to another, a school to other schools. Thus the FSA tests.

So why is the BCTF so uptight? Simple, the FSA is a threat to their power over teachers.

In my view, the BCTF is detrimental to the overall education system in British Columbia, and need a swift kick in the butt, placed in a classroom corner with a dunce cap!

Rod Smelser...

For starters:

http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/reportcard/archive/2008/03/19/why-first-nations-support-standardized-tests.aspx

Some more tidbits:

http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1053275

Talk to your teacher

fOObar... you ask

"So, what am I supposed to do? Just sit around and hope my kids are getting taught well?"

One thing you could do is go talk to your teacher, email them, get to know them. Chances are they can tell you more about your child's progress than any standardized test... especially one that tests kids on parts of the curriculum they might not have taken yet.

Since when did nine year olds filling in multiple choice bubbles determine how well a school is doing anyways?

Rod Smelser...

From the article:

There ya go. The BCTF is not opposed to the FSA, it's just that the right-wing Fraser Institute uses the info to rank schools. And that's political.

If the left-wing Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives was the one doing the ranking, there would be no debate right now.

In any event, both the FI and the CCPA are useless organizations, IMHO, and nobody needs to listen to 'em.

No way to say this nicely but...

"So, what am I supposed to do? Just sit around and hope my kids are getting taught well?"

If you can't answer that question (is my child learning?), then it's you, not your kid, or their teacher that is the problem. If you are not willing to put in the effort to ensure they are learning, no matter what school they go to, then you are failing at parenting.

Luke

"In any event, both the FI and the CCPA are useless organization"

Why? Got a problem with people of a similar mindset organizing and presenting their views?

Apparatchik Spin

"If the left-wing Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives was the one doing the ranking, there would be no debate right now."

If Santa had big ears and delivered chocolate eggs in the springtime he'd be the Easter Bunny. But he isn't.

In other words, what a pointless statement. The CCPA isn't doing the rankings and AFAIK isn't about to.

You test when it is needed.

The reason that you give tests is to determine if students have been able to learn and understand what was taught. Teachers do this on an ongoing basis, so what purpose does the FSA serve?

It was brought in as a check on the curriculum. As a measure to retool the curriculum if students where getting not enough of one thing or too much of another. There is limited time in the day to provide all the curriculum teachers are supposed to teach. It was never meant to be an individual measure of a particular child's performance.

So, even though the NDP brought it in 10 years ago, the FSA's purpose has morphed into something that was really unintended in its creation. My children will get much more out of reading a good book next year when they are in grade 4 and 7 then sitting infront of a computer to show what they have learned again. It doesn't have anything to do with their individual report card or letter grades. They used to have FSAs in grade 10. Wonder why the stopped? Because grade 10 students aren't ignorant enough to actually "try their best" on something that doesn't count and is dubious enough to their actual learning needs.

Time for the government to step back and take note. While the BCCPAC doesn't represent all parents, the BCTF sure represents all the teachers in public. When the BCTF embarks on a campaign like this they actually have a democratic vote! 85% of teachers voted to take a stand on this.

sirjohna

Why don't you make the acquaintance of and talk to a practising grade four or grade seven teacher who actually administers this test?
The way you denigrate teachers and the bctf reveals how far out of touch with reality you are.
Inform yourself.

Tests are bogus

Wealthy school districts have a big advantage,wealthier parents,wealthier students.

Wealthy students have more "cheat items" available to them,better home computers,better calculaters,better ways to cheat.

If your a parent who has left all the educating to the school well maybe CPS should be called.

These tests don`t determine what kids are smoking meth or pot once they get home to their loving/educating parents.

These tests if they weren`t ranking schools that would be diffrent.

Get rid of the tests,I learned more from my DAD than anyone.

Schools in the queen charlette islands or in high native population area are diffrent,teachers circumstances are not uniform.
Luke and others want to listen to idiots at the Fraser institute that want to privitize everything,they want to lower minimum wages and prevent them from ever going up.How will that ever help your kids when they go to work in the summer or part time.

As for the ministry of education/Bond and Campbell are pathetic and highly political!

What schools got playground equipment grants?

Wealthy schools,several in Campbells point grey riding and by for the most playground equipment went to Shirley bond`s riding in Prince george, even when a wealthy school in Vancouver got a playground equipment grant and tried to give to a poorer inner city school,Bond rejected it!

Booster seats for kids,a few hundred booster seats were bought by the goverment only they were all given to Liberal MLAs to hand out with the accompaning photo-ops,more bullshit Liberal politics!

Ideological misinformation

If you all had to retake the tests you performed in school, and those test results were used to judge your ability in your current work, would that be a fair measure? Would it tell your employers or customers how good you are at your job?

Would any of you judge the quality of a car by making its engineers take a physics test? Is there a better way of determining car quality?

FSA doesn't measure the quality of schools. FSA measures the ability of schools to get their students to do well on the FSA test.

Where school quality is concerned, FSA scores are meaningless statistics, and they are being used as a political tool by propagandists who want to sell off everything to the rich.

And What is BC Public Opinion????

From a March 2008, Compas poll of 1,000 BC parents:

http://www.compas.ca/data/080418-BCParentsAndSchoolTesting-PC.pdf

Ya just can't quibble with BC public opinion. ;)

habos

both of my kids took these tests habos, and i did talk to their teachers, who, by the way, were good ones. the effect was absolutely inconsequential. in fact the most of the kids were happy to do it, as it provided a break from the daily routine. the teachers that claim it is stressful are either lying or doing their job poorly.

Wading in...

Everything the Fraser Institute does pushes their privatization agenda. There are not objective about anything they say, regardless of the words the use to dress up their message.

1) Private schools score better because their students are taught how to write the tests. Good results in these rankings is a marketing tool for these schools. What about the private schools that specialize in students with learning disabilities and parents who can afford the tuition? How do they rank?

2) Private schools SELECT who they take in. They are not obliged to take ESL, physically and/or learning disabled or students from troubled social backgrounds. Frankly, Vancouver offers a huge range of special and district programs in both elementary and high schools. I heard one fellow (non-FI) claim a few years ago is that the public system tries to answer TOO many different needs.

My wife talked to someone who looked into St. George's for her son and was put off by talk of 'the product' and the boasting about how graduates go to their choice of USA universities. 'Sainties' have written incredible puffery on the Wikipedia page, even claiming at one point it was "the best private high school in North America".

My wife talked to a student who attended grade 10 in an international school in London England, then returned to a private school in West Vancouver. She was shocked to realize how petty and provincial the outlook was here. IS a high school education only good if it can get you into the USA university of your choice? I think not.

My son's teacher lobbied for parents to exempt our children. My son wrote the test and getting the results back was very useful. Some test is useful, but I agree there is a problem because the weight the FI report yields is not proportionate to the alleged "value” of their "study".

poll results

Without knowing both the questions asked and the demographic breakdown of those polled, those statistics are useless for anything but spin Luke.

Stump

Have you seen an actual test?

It was interesting to see my son's. The FSA test is designed to test for ability to draw inferences, drawing information from a short article, and seeing how students respond to relevant questions about another topic.

f00bar: THANKS FOR THE LINK

f00bar:
And before you jump down my throat, I know they're politicians and they're going to spin the controversy as much as possible for petty political advantage. Just like all the other pols in the province.

Thanks for the link to the Ministry website. From what's there it appears that the Ministry designs these tests, not some LSAT or GRE type outfit. From what is said on that site it would appear that teachers are involved in preparing the test and curiously I have not heard the BCTF ask its members to refuse to help in development work, only administering the test in the classroom.

I see we agree that the BC Liberals are politicians and that they too play political games. I am sure this government, if they wanted to, could have met the BCTF and accommodated some or all of their objections. But that would spoil the show, and the show must go on, Tuesday, May 12th to be exact.

COMPAS = CanWest

Also from the COMPAS website.

"Today, COMPAS is research partner to CanWest, Canada’s largest media company. CanWest’s many assets include the National Post, Ottawa Citizen, Vancouver Sun, Calgary Herald, Edmonton Journal, and Montreal Gazette, as well as the immensely successful Global Television Network."

'nuff said.

LUKE SKYWALKER - TWO MORE QUOTES - FAULTY LOGIC

Here are two additional quotes from the Janet Steffenhagen piece. I know teachers tend to regard Steffenhagen as anti-teacher. Aboriginal educators in the BCTF don't like the test, but apparently members of the FNESC do. I assume they are Aboriginal teachers too, are they?

From your other post:

Quote:
...the union's president Irene Lanzinger told The Tyee. "We're not opposed to the FSA. We just want it done differently so we can put an end to the unfair ranking by the Fraser Institute.

There ya go. The BCTF is not opposed to the FSA, it's just that the right-wing Fraser Institute uses the info to rank schools. And that's political.

One can disagree with the Fraser Institute's methodology without being driven by political motives. It may lead to a political disagreement with the government, but your assumption that the BCTF is just cooking up a controversy for the sake of having one is your own version of things. This isn't something you or anyone else knows for a fact.

Alright Stump...

I've never heard a public opinion poll referred to as spin, lol...

In any event, if ya don't wanna look at the Compas poll link yourself, I will spoon feed it to ya. :)

Sample Size:

"A representative sample of 1010 British Columbia parents of children under 18 years of age... By convention, samples of this size are deemed accurate to within 3.2 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

Poll Questions:

1. “The B.C. Ministry of Education has been carrying out province-wide testing in grades 4 and 7 in reading, writing, and math. Parents can use the results to see how their children’s school is doing and to compare schools and see how individual schools are performing. All things considered, do you think that parents have a right to see the results from province-wide testing?”

2. “The Ministry of Education has been carrying out province-wide testing for several years. Do you agree or disagree with this policy?”

3.“Do you think that British Columbia is doing... a) Far too much province-wide testing b) Too much c) About right
d) Too little e) Far too little province-testing?"

4. "“Do you think parents use information on school rankings... a)Far too much b)Too much c) About right d) Too little e) Much too little?"

5. “As a result of the existence of province-wide rankings of schools, do you think that schools have become...”
a) A lot more willing to listen to parents’
concerns about how their school is doing b) Somewhat more c) No change d)Somewhat less e)Much less willing to listen to parents’ concerns about how their school is doing?"

the test

A fair question Dave and the answer is no, I haven't. Are they multiple choice?

I think however that no matter what the test actually tests, using them to judge a school or teacher's ability to teach is highly suspect. There are simply too many other factors at play for it (standardized testing) to be of value in determining which schools or teachers are doing (or not doing) their jobs.

My personal example would be the fact that I used to score through the roof on Canadian Basic Skills tests back in the day, yet barely graduated from high school (they let me go because they didn't really want me back).

sdgreen: Power!!?

I've been teaching in the BC school system for 29 years and I have never, repeat, never felt that the BCTF has power over me.

True, central office provides propaganda with a bias that has been created by one of the most democratic organizations imaginable, and I am forced to assess the value and validity of that propaganda for myself and among my colleagues.

But the notion that the BCTF has power OVER me is simply laughable. Mr. Green (if that's your name), you don't know what you're talking about (aside from your own feelings).

Public opinion, school & teacher performance

The Compas poll was commissioned by the Fraser Institute. A more recent Mustel poll commissioned by the BCTF found the public was about evenly split on being for/against using the FSAs to rank schools.
http://www.vancouversun.com/pdf/novomnipages.pdf

Re using FSAs to rank schools or teachers, even the Ministry acknowledges that FSAs do not provide meaningful information in this regard.

Start with the enormous margins of error (using one test of core skills on one day for one class to make assumptions about the entire school and the entire spectrum of learning). Such an exercise also assumes that the school controls all factors that contribute to student performance on the tests. That is obviously not the case. Children learn as much outside of school as in school and spend most of their waking time outside school. Thus the class average tells you as much about the average capacity of the students' families, the mood in the classroom that day and the demographics of the neighbourhood. It is impossible to tease apart the relative contribution of any number of factors external to the school.

At the VSB meeting last week, the district rep for principals said they'd prefer to develop a new and more sensitive instrument that could give a better picture of how their schools are doing relative to others, pointing out that FSAs are too blunt to allow comparisons - and certainly not at the detailed level of an ordered ranking such as the Fraser Institute professes to offer.

If we want to save the FSA to do what it was designed to do - i.e. provide a general sense of broad trends in student performance over time and across different districts or demographic groups, we need to be very clear on what the FSA CANNOT do. It can't rank schools and it can't tell you anything about individual students that's nearly as useful as other instruments like regular classroom tests and exams and report cards.

It can't hold teachers accountable either. Which teacher are you going to blame for failure in a test taken mid-way through Grade 7? Has any teacher ever been held accountable for a poor FSA result? How can anyone believe the FSAs provide any useful accountability for teacher performance when a teacher simply has to switch schools to go from being ranked worst to best or vice versa overnight? If we seriously want better teacher accountability, we need to look at very different tools than FSAs.

stump, vicRK

Obviously I'm a useless, evil parent, because I'm not fully in favour on the BCTF's position on something.

Having got that behind us, you will note that my rhetorical question was "Just sit around and hope my kids are getting taught well?", not "Just sit around and hope my kids are learning well?"

There is a difference. One relates to my children, the other relates to my children's teacher(s).

You will also note that I said I'm open to some other method of evaluating the job that teachers and education system is doing, if the FSA isn't cutting it. So far, no-one in the education industry is suggesting anything. They're just crying foul about the FI.

Let me make some other points:
1. I don't care that private schools come out on top in the FI scorecard. I'm not in the market for a private school. People who are in the market for private schools are going to send their kids there, scorecard or not.

Does anyone seriously believe that the fact that schools like St Georges or Little Flower come out on top of these scorecards influences anybody towards privatization? If you do, you seriously insult the intelligence of the average parent.

2. 85% of the 54% of teachers who voted, voted in favour of the boycott. That would make 46% of teachers. Those might be numbers that Stevie aspires to, but they don't indicate consensus in the teaching profession.

No difference

Sorry foobar, but the answer to both rhetorical questions is the same. If you can't answer it for yourself, then you are the one not doing his/her job.

Not suggesting that you are or aren't, just that anyone who can't answer that question without help from the FSA needs to ask themselves how they can be so out of touch with their children's lives.

difference

They're not the same. They're not easy to answer, especially in the case of teaching.

Since we've already established I'm an incompetent, evil parent, let's consider two hypothetical situations.

If my kids get straight A's in their school, are they being taught well? Are they learning? What if the school ranks bottom in the province based on the FSA scores? Are the answers to these two questions still the same?

If my kids suck at school, and complain that it's because their teachers are terrible, is that true? What if the school ranks #1 according to the FSA?

Of course any reasonable, caring, involved parent talks to the teachers, follows up, spends time with their kids etc etc. And they also have the FSA score as a data point to calibrate what they see and hear around them.

I strongly suspect that all the parents that take the time to look through the FI report card when it comes out are also parents that do all the other things to help their children do well.

The BCTF's blind opposition to the test and the FI interpretation of it does no good for anyone. If they don't like how the FI makes use of the info, get their own analysts together and put their own spin on it. And any other info they have available.

Name...

Fair enough and that question relates to the Fraser Institute and publishing the findings in the newspaper.

Again that's what this whole brouhaha about the BCTF/FSA is all about.

But let's say that the FSA is discontinued.

Will that prevent the FI from continuing to rank BC schools and having the results published in the newspaper? Doubtful.

Why? The FI also ranks schools in BC, AB, ON, PQ, and NB. Even the CD Howe Institute ranks Ontario's schools.

And in Ontario's case there are apparently no formal standardized examinations, unlike the FSA here in BC. The FI still ranks schools in ON based upon other incomplete and inaccurate data such as graduation rates, drop-out statistics, etc.

In a nutshell, even if the FSA was dropped here in BC, the FI will likely still be ranking BC schools just as they do in "FSA"-free Ontario.

When two groups of special interest meet...

the public gets s%rewed every single times, education, health care, car insurance, etc.

Have been there, done that and gotten the T-shirt too.

Now did the Tyee story coverage and/or the commentaries help make sense of this???

This I know something about...

In the past I worked for the Ministry of Education as a marker of the FSAs. Let me tell what kind of a farce goes on there...

After our training, it was clear that speed was an absolute must. As the white boxes were wheeled in, is was explained that, on no account was there any budget to work longer than the allotted five days. We had to get finished by Friday. We were also promised we could leave early on the last day if we were finished. We were constantly told to go faster; indeed we were specifically told NOT to read the whole essay! This was told to us not once but several times. "Read the first part, get a sense of the quality, and put a down a number from one to five." As for going back to reconsider a mark, or pausing to confer… not a chance. The sheets whizzed by in a blur. By the way, they don’t even call it “marking.” Apparently, the term for what we were doing is “coding.”

Of course as a teacher, I had had my doubts about the FSA’s validity, especially since I had to tell my students the truth when they asked the crucial question “Does this count?” I could see that their performance was a very inaccurate indication of their learning. But I had done my job. I had administered these exams in good faith.

The FSA hurts kids. It crowds out important instruction time. Worse, it produces a misleading set of data which appears to rate schools against each other, while omitting vital information. For example, when a child completes a research project or creates an interactive website, these achievements will not exist, according to the FSA. The FSA will rank her school and herself according to one not very reliable test of selected skills. The natural result is a de-emphasis of aspects of the curriculum which fall outside this one test. This is why some parents are indeed taking the suggestion to excuse their child from this harmful activity.

the bctf has had nothing but

the bctf has had nothing but bad publicity on this policy since it was announced in november. once again the politicos are making the good teachers look like fools, just as they did during the illegal work stoppage. if the libs had real courage they'd give teachers the option of opting out of this idiotic political party, or at least bring in legislation that would limit the ways in which their union dues could be spent, as they have done in many states.

answers

They're not the same.

So?

They're not easy to answer, especially in the case of teaching.

Sure they are. just watch.

Since we've already established I'm an incompetent, evil parent, let's consider two hypothetical situations.

Nobody said that. Save the croc tears mate.

If my kids get straight A's in their school, are they being taught well? Are they learning?

Yes to both.

What if the school ranks bottom in the province based on the FSA scores?

The scores don't reflect reality. This is the entire point of the debate.

Are the answers to these two questions still the same?

Your kid is getting A's! What do you think? If their marks correspond with your knowledge of your kid's intelligence and interest in school, it's pretty clear the school is doing something right. Unless you suspect some conspiracy to hand out inflated grades for no apparent reason. Which seems unlikely

If my kids suck at school, and complain that it's because their teachers are terrible, is that true? What if the school ranks #1 according to the FSA?

Who are you going to listen to? Your kids or some right-wing think tank made up of greed-is-good whackjobs convinced of impossibilities like unlimited growth and privatized social services. If you don't believe your kids, talk to other parents, talk to the principal.

Of course any reasonable, caring, involved parent talks to the teachers, follows up, spends time with their kids etc etc. And they also have the FSA score as a data point to calibrate what they see and hear around them.

Unless the FSA scores are pretty much arbitrary and meaningless. See Yursowrong's post above for confirmation of that thesis.

I strongly suspect that all the parents that take the time to look through the FI report card when it comes out are also parents that do all the other things to help their children do well.

The BCTF's blind opposition to the test and the FI interpretation of it does no good for anyone. If they don't like how the FI makes use of the info, get their own analysts together and put their own spin on it. And any other info they have available.

I think their opposition is far from 'blind'. Clearly they've done their homework and have very valid reasons for their objections.

Spin begets spin? Oh great. Why not simply trust teachers to be able to accurately assess their pupils abilities based upon nine months of interaction?

These tests don't prove a

These tests don't prove a damn thing.

A person may be a genius and yet fail to pass certain tests for a great number of reasons.

I was a very poor student, while reading hundreds of books on a great variety of subjects, except what was being taught in class, because school books bored the hell out of me.

But we weren't classified like animals or numbers, but as human beings and the teachers had meetings to decide what marks to give to whom, based on their experience in seeing certain potentials in the persons.

I have known kids who were rock bottom and all of a sudden became mathematical or medical, or whatever, top performers, including professors. Had they been classified in their early teens, they might have ended up as sweepers, as the denizens of the Fraser Inst. should be with the intellectual levels their studies
exhibit.

When I looked back at my graduating class, without me, as I was a POW when they graduated and later never bothered, some of the worst students became top names in a great variety of fields.

But they weren't ready to shine when they were kids.

To hell with these tests and those who push them for political and not for logical reasons.

Ed Deak.

Incredible

I saw a thing on the tube several years ago, some bald headed fat wank from the Fraser Institute was allowed into a public grade school for a photo opp. The dude was telling the group of ten year olds how the air should be privately owned.

The Fraser Group should be ignored and never ever quoted by anyone. Shun them like scientologists.
Who does fund those jokers anyway?

BCTF and Politics

Imagine a medical screening procedure which is universally condemned by doctors as being unreliable, expensive to administer and harmful to the patients. Would the government insist that it be even allowed, never mind being forced on the entire population?

Anyone who has paid the least attention knows that such is the case with this FSA. I have spoken to dozens of teachers about this, some of them are politically engaged, others, not at all. I have yet to meet ONE who has any respect for this methodology. The are unanimous in their opinion that the test provides no useful data and serves only to spread mischief and distrust of public education.

Say what you like about the BCTF. They're right about this.

Although called a

Although called a "prestigious conservative think tank", and a "charitable organization", the Fraser Inst is really and advertising agency with $25,000/yr. memberships. One of about a hundred set up in he mid seventies to sell the neoclassical market economy theory.

Some years ago they published a "study" recommending the privatization of Canada Post, written by a US professor. He was interviewed on TV and asked that, as his whole study was about postal service in cities and what about people in rural areas? He replied "Well, they'll just have to move to the cities... hahahaha...." laughing his stupid head off.

Then they published another book, authored by Arnold Block, recommending the sale of all forests and crown lands, even rivers and lakes.

Again, he was interviewed on TV, where he claimed he would privatize and sell all the seas and oceans as "environmental protection measure". I believe, he's now a professor somewhere in the USA and he's welcome to stay there, "creating wealth"

Come to think of it the Fraser and CD Howe gangs should all be exported to the USA, or China, or any of the lowest bidder.

Ed Deak.

Foobar, Luke S

FOOBAR, you're clearly not an evil or incompetent parent, but it's worrying to see the Minister etc perpetuate the notion that parents can rely on FSA in Grades 4 & 7 to find out if their kid can read at grade level.

The tragedy of failure can only be averted by early identification & intensive intervention. Gr. 4 or 7 is way too late to ID problems.

Like you say, some parents think FSA can calibrate other measures of individual progress. But the teachers who prepare your report cards are now the same ones grading reading & writing for FSAs, so what kind of a check is that? (Yes, the Ministry recently downloaded marking to schools to hide 80% of the costs!)

And math is math - the kid either gets the right answer or not - so what's to check? That's the teachers' point - FSA is no less subjective than what they're doing, just cruder because it's a one-off "snapshot" vs. composite taken over time. Changing the FSA to mid-year (another recent insanity) means you can't tell how much of a low score was simply because the teacher hadn't yet reached that topic.

What can the scores of 1 class on 1 day say overall about the teachers at your school - nothing. A lousy Gr.5 teacher doesn't predict the amazing Gr.6 teacher who will click with your kid & unlock his potential. A school's staff isn't a hivemind.

And things that differentiate schools relate more to the principal's leadership, culture, neighbourhood vibe, parents' education & socioeconomic status, PAC activity. FSA says nothing about these things you need to assess to do school comparisons useful to an individual parent/student.

Your teachers belong to a district union. They all work under the same terms, get the same training, collaborate on district projects and move around from school to school. Most went to the same universities. Differences come down to individual personality & teaching style - not things yu can measure at a school-wide level.

And yes, private schools absolutely rely on FI rankings - it's their most effective marketing tool, which explains concern about "gaming" of scores.

And you can't say the 85% of teachers who voted for change don't represent a solid majority. If only 15% of the 54% voted the other way, that's like saying only 8% really opposed it.

LUKE, Ontario & other provinces do have their own versions of standardized testing. Ours is the only full census but I'm fuzzy on details. And yes, FI may still try to rank the schools. I'm not 100% clear on why BCTF thinks a random sample will stop this. But it would be clearer to all how dodgy the rankings are, since they can't claim to base it on average test scores for each school.

Should we be publicizing school performance?

Ha, just noticed the question at the top of the story on my way out.

That's absolutely the wrong question. Of course we should publicize schools' "performance" if we had some credible way of assessing it.

That's the whole problem. The FI pretends it can assess and rank the relative performance of every single school in the province, based on the thinnest of data with enormous margins of error and no control over the multitude of confounding factors outside the schools' control, and moreover with absolutely no meaningful or universal standard defining exactly what is meant by suggesting that one school is a "better" performer" than another. It's a notion no less absurd than GQ or People claiming to have identified the Sexiest Man Alive or the world's Best Dressed People.

It would be extremely funny if people didn't actually take them seriously, despite pretty much every academic and education partner group from the Minister on down having denounced the methodology used to develop these school rankings as deeply flawed and the results therefore entirely worthless.

yursowrong

It's odd that you say the BCTF thinks the FSA is useless and they're opposed to it. They specifically say the opposite. To quote from the story above:

"[T]he union's president Irene Lanzinger told The Tyee ... "We're not opposed to the FSA. We just want it done differently so we can put an end to the unfair ranking by the Fraser Institute."

What the union is opposed to is the FI doing a school ranking based on the results. And since there's no way to keep the data from the FI (they can make (have made?) a FOI request to get it), they don't want to have the test done.

If there was a way to keep the data secret, the BCTF wouldn't be opposed to the test. As they weren't when the test was introduced.

Some inconsistency here between the leadership and the troops, methinks.

Main problem

Increasing funding for private schools is the root of these problems. Take away all tax revenue now going to pay for the schools the Fraser Institute likes and put that tax money into the public system where it belongs.

Currently, the Campbell govt has been increasing funding to private institutions of learning at a higher rate than it has for public schools...that's just crazy and taxpayers should be screaming blue murder about it.

If there weren't public money on the table this whole debate would have a different flavour...while public schools classrooms are being starved for TAs and special needs teachers, public funds are subsidizing the wealthy folks who wouldn't sent their kids to public schools anyway.

Time for an election campaign on that issue. Among others.

No more welfare for St George's, SMUS and the rest.

Doctors of all things

“Sorry, but your ideological paranoia is showing, and so instead of looking foolish, perhaps you might do some research.
No group of students receives more special consideration in our schools, as school boards strive to reduce the high number of drop-outs among FN students.”

But it’s not working, is it? So, my criticism still stands. Paranoia? Don’t use that kind of vocabulary unless you actually qualify to diagnose paranoia! In any case, you would nevertheless be a hack at it, since one letter is not adequate basis for such a determination…

In fact, it is even worse to know that assiduous attempts are being made at remedying the situation! Think of the wasted resources and the misguided notions…

----

“Imagine a medical screening procedure which is universally condemned by doctors as being unreliable, expensive to administer and harmful to the patients. Would the government insist that it be even allowed, never mind being forced on the entire population? “

Very bad example! I would not have such an unshakeable faith in doctors being infallible judges of anything. Remember the 15 or so ‘rudimentary’ organs we started out with around 1900? They dwindled away throughout the century, as it turned out they each had their uses. And how about the incredibly long time it took the CMA to no longer endorse circumcision as a recommended thing to do for baby boys? I could go on, but I think I have illustrated the point that ‘professional authority’ is not something anyone should accept being hit over the head with.

The discussion has completely run off the rails. It is not about the possible scoundrels in the Scottish think tank, and whether they are glorified welfare bums or not. It is about how we assess that the job of teaching is or isn’t effectively being done. This is not the same as trying to apportion blame. It strikes me that if such is the thinking among teachers in general, and they also, Gods forbid, apply this thinking in the relationship to their students, no wonder there is a general ‘lack of motivation’ throughout the land. It is one of my most fundamental views on learning, that there is never a single child born on this Earth with a congenital lack of motivation. The lack is induced, and we need to find out all the ways in which it happens, so we can change our ways.

By the way, we hear loudly and often from teachers and parents on this, not often, if ever, from students. I am privileged to know a couple of former ones, and one of these informed me, that on the occasions of testing that he participated in, all the wails of suffering originated from teachers and none of them from students.

Name...

Yeah, after some further checking, Ontario does have standardized tests, which results are also utilized by the Fraser Institute's school rankings in ON.

But the teacher federations in the other provinces don't boycott the public policy of their respective ministries (the employer), unlike the militant BCTF. That's akin to insubordination.

Something else going on here on timing wise after ten years. Very poor thought out political game.

When are the FSA tests? Next month?

Utilizing the smell test, I suspect the Compas poll that I referred to above still reflects public opinion.

And then NDP leader Carole James, a former school board trustee, will have the television camera shoved into her face... it's either gonna have to be yay or nay... but I still suspect that James will have the "deer caught in the headlights" look.

Really, really bad optics.

Incompetence

What we have here in the FSA tests is yet one more example of how the incompetent ideology of Campbell and his cronies harms children. In this case it's a far broader swath of the child population than just those in the care of social services.

How long will the people of BC allow these extreme levels of government incompetence to go on before they throw the idiots out?

Testing kills schools Part I

For your information, Luke (and f00bar) the FAS's were introduced as a random-sample test that provided a barometer of learning in the province. The BCTF did not then, and does not now, oppose random-sample testing.

If you want to know why teachers are opposed to this kind of testing, then you should visit the BCTF website, where a search on the topic produces approximately 100 hits which outline the damage this kind of testing does to students, schools, and the public education system as a whole. You should also do a search of the literature from academics on the topic. Again, you will find scant evidence that such testing actually helps students, but overwhelming evidence of the damage such testing, particularly if it is used to rank schools, does to our education system.

If you want more evidence, look south of the border. The United States, particularly in the past decade, has done more standardized testing than any other nation on earth. There, standardized testing is used to deprive schools of needed resources (score low and you lose your 'No Child Left Behind' funding) and shift public funding of education to the private sector (testing is done by the private corporations and districts that 'fail' are forced to hire private firms to provide tutoring). I know from personal experience that there are many schools in the U.S. which only teach reading and mathematics, because those are the areas tested. Little or no science, social studies, music, art, nothing. Is that the kind of school you want for your children? I once read a quote from the then president of the American Association of School Administrators to the effect that if standardized testing resulted in better schools, the U.S. would have the best education system in the world. So where does the U.S. sit in OECD educational rankings? In 2005 it ranked 21st out of 27 countries. Canadian students, on the other hand, score very near the top in all categories. Who is number 1? Finland, which does no standardized testing. Finland, by the way, pays its teachers well and gives them a very high level of professional autonomy. Given that our students already do much better on the OECD assessments than their American cousins, I have often wondered why, when we are searching for ways to improve our education system, we look south to a model that produces inferior results. This is not rational.

And don't think that such excesses won't happen here. A principal in Surrey, when asked why his school's FSA scores had improved so dramatically from the previous year, replied that they had spent a month preparing for the tests. A month is 10% of the school year, 10% of the school year where all other curricula were set aside so that students could prepare for a test and the school would look better to the Fraser Institute. Again, this is not rational.

(continued below)

Testing Kills Schools Part II

(continued from above)

Most of the proponents of large-scale standardized testing quoted in the Sun's op-ed pieces are, not surprisingly, economists (not education specialists) representing right-wing think-tanks such as the Fraser and C.D. Howe Institutes, whose mandate is overtly to undermine public education programs and promote the interests of the private enterprises that fund them.

In addition, many people seem to think that the FSA is not a big deal. They are wrong. The FSA, along with the recently-added provincial exams in English and Science 10, and Socials and Math 11, is part of the trend that has had a devastating impact on the education systems in the U.S. and Britain. It will not lead to a better public education system. In fact, it will substantially weaken it.

And what about the considerable time and money spent on preparing, distributing, and grading these exams? Many millions of dollars and countless hours of teacher and administrator time are wasted every year on testing, for very little benefit. These resources would be far better spent in the classroom and on authentic assessments that really could benefit students.

I know many teachers. They have always been prepared to justify their results to students, parents and administrators. They will happily pit their qualifications and skills in education against anyone at the Fraser Institute any day. But many of them have seen first-hand how large-scale testing has gutted the curriculum and they have witnessed the damage that rankings can do to schools and communities. They are not afraid of being held accountable. They are afraid of the agenda of the Fraser Institute and its ilk (and, by implication, the current government), who are no friends of public education, and they are afraid of what will happen to our schools if this agenda is allowed to run its course.

LUKE SKYWALKER: PURE POLITICS

Luke Skywalker
Utilizing the smell test, I suspect the Compas poll that I referred to above still reflects public opinion.

And then NDP leader Carole James, a former school board trustee, will have the television camera shoved into her face... it's either gonna have to be yay or nay... but I still suspect that James will have the "deer caught in the headlights" look.

Really, really bad optics.

The smell test is one that two can use. And the smell I get from your post is a pure politics, electoral politics, and nothing else. This is just a party political football for you, not an educational issue.

As for really bad optics, consider how revealing your posts are to parents who are concerned about education and who are supporters of these tests. What's their opinion likely to be after they read your material, Luke?

THANKS FOR SOME REAL INFORMATION, Yursowrong

Yursowrong
In the past I worked for the Ministry of Education as a marker of the FSAs. Let me tell what kind of a farce goes on there...

Thanks for some real information. However, since this thread of comments is mostly just partisan, electoral political posturing, disguised as concerned parents for the benefit of the terminally naive, I don't expect your observations to have much impact on the "discussion".

Rod Smelser... Illogical Commentary

Much earlier on you make this statement:

Now... I still can't comprehend how the provincial government's ~10 year continuance in annually implementing the FSA can somehow morph into the government now entering into controversy and conflict. Just doesn't make any sense.

Yet, you now make this statement:

Still doesn't make any sense. And according to the BCTF, the boycotting of the FSA has nothing to do with education at all ... but is all about the Fraser Institute. Go figure.

Evaluation is a new start

f00bar said, "Secondly, I am just a poor engineer with an interest in the world around me. When I build something, and I screw up, it just doesn't work, end of story. There's no negotiating with the laws of physics (or large software vendors, but that's another story)."
In the classroom, that's not the end of the story. We look, with the student and try to see why it didn't work. Evaluation is used as a learning tool, not just something used to determine a grade. When I taught, I would go over students' work and tests. Some would learn from this and redo their work and it would be reevaluated. The evaluation process only ended at the end of the year. When a student, to use your words, "screws up," it is not the end of the story. It is the start of a new way to examine their work.

You don't have to like engineers, but we work harder than most

don quixote, you obviously know more about this than me. BUT, the FSA was SPECIFICALLY introduced by the then NDP govt as a global test in 2000 to replace the previous random sampling test regime. Apparently it was felt that there were deficiencies in the previous approach.

That said, Canada is not the USA. Just because they had crazy, screwed up policies there doesn't mean we have them here, or will ever have them. I don't feel the need to be scared of the USA.

I agree the tests cost a lot of money, and maybe it's wasteful. But we're talking a few million dollars in a $5.5b operating budget. If you think replacing the test with an in-depth random sampling test will be cheaper, or that the money saved will make any difference whatsoever to in-classroom education resources, well, there's an Olympic Village you might be interested in...

At the end of the day it's just a test. It provides useful info to many parents. The hysteria that the BCTF is trying to generate about the evil FI and their misuse of data is just nonsense. Just how stupid does the BCTF think we non-teachers are?

North of Hope, you seem to have looked at my statement out of context. I agree with what you say in general. All I was pointing out is that in the real world, evaluation sometimes does just determine a grade, and maybe not a very pleasant one. That's why I don't have a problem with tests at school - never mind what the test is about, the act of preparing for, taking the test, and dealing with the results is a valuable learning experience in itself. That's not to say it's the be-all and end-all of education.

And Rod, I really do care more about my children's education than whether Carol James or Gordon Campbell wins the next election. Judging by the performance of the Libs and NDP over the last 15 years, it makes no difference really.

FSA is just one more swindle

The FSA test introduced by the NDP isn't the same FSA test used by the Liberals. It never has and never will be able to determine the quality of schools. In the hands of the Liberals and the Fraser Institute it is being used as a source of misinformation to push an agenda of privatization. They want to sell off public education to giant corporations. BC Rail, BC Gas... how many more swindles are the people of this province going to put up with?

Awww, those tall claims...!

"The United States, particularly in the past decade, has done more standardized testing than any other nation on earth. "

I seriously doubt that. Check out Scandinavia, particularly a couple of decades ago. During my schooling in Denmark, there were annual nation-wide tests in four subjects from grade three and up. They were marked by both the school's own teachers, and then by some teacher in the other end of the country, who did not know the grade the first one had given the work. Excellent system. If there were discrepancies, the Ministry of Education would want to know why.

I think it boils down to where the priorities lie.

what's in a decade

You are comparing two different time frames Dorothy.

"The United States, particularly in the past decade, has done more standardized testing than any other nation on earth. "

vs

"I seriously doubt that. Check out Scandinavia, particularly a couple of decades ago."

f00bar: I THINK YOU OWE ME A BEER AT THE CHEESE PUB

f00bar
And Rod, I really do care more about my children's education than whether Carol James or Gordon Campbell wins the next election. Judging by the performance of the Libs and NDP over the last 15 years, it makes no difference really

It's great that there are dedicated parents out there who are involved actively in their children's education.

Recently my wife and I were talking with a friend who's concerned that her daughter, mow three, might not get a good education in the local public school system, and she was thinking of maybe finding a private school. My wife suggested that if she was concerned that the local school system was weak, she and others in the community should vote in new trustees. "You mean, we vote for the school board?" answered my wife's friend, ... who is, ... wait for it, ... a chemical engineer!

day old replies

F00bar, I request that you cease to agree with the opionion (of ONE) that you are evil, or a bad parent. What a load of hooey. You obviously wouldn't be here, communicating, if you were a type of parent that didn't support or have interest in their child's education.

So, thanks for being the kind of person that gets interested and takes action.

(Someone just wasn't getting in your world...)

My husband, the teacher, who ironically holds a P.Eng, is thankful when parents communicate (whether they are initially upset or have questions, doesn't matter) as that shows that they are attentive, interested and committed.

He loves kids and is there for them, supporting them, challenging them and helping them grow to be the best they can be, whether they are high achieving or are in ANY other category. For the parents who notice, they are very appreciative.

So, I guess we have a load of interested and committed parties reading Tyee.

Politics & FSAs

While I fully agree with many of the concerns re FSAs discussed here (and others that haven't been raised) and the need to fix them (as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater), I really feel that if the concern is education rather than politics, we really have a lot more urgent priorities than FSAs that we should be discussing.

I find these endless debates tiresome and frustrating (so why am I here, I ask myself). I guess it's the vain hope that we can get people out of their corners and taking off their political caps to see that yes, there's some sensible middle ground to be found to resolve this so that we can get past this.

Then we can finally get on to the truly important discussion:

What do we need to do to actually help all those students who are identified (mostly by other tools that are more sophisticated than FSAs) as struggling/failing????

engineers have a sense of humour, too

James, lighten up a little. My comment subject was intended as a joke, since it was 1:30am and I had just finished working on a critical problem that arose yesterday.

Also, I'm not "so into grading". I'm just not so anti-testing, anti-grading as a bunch of people around here... Testing and grading have their place in education. Including tests that allow a large population to get an idea of their relative position.

FYI, engineers are legally required to "write tests" to guarantee the quality of bridges and cars they build. They have to sign their name to them, and can be held legally accountable if an error or omission on their part causes damage or injury or death.

Rod, us electrical engineers look down on chemical engineers, just like everyone else does :-)

testing and grading

"Testing and grading have their place in education. "

And in the livestock industry too! Are we educating or grading a product for future consumption?

I'm only half-kidding.

HISTORICAL REVISIONISM

Wilfred Laurier
Anyone who has lived in this province for any length of time knows the BCTF is a political organisation from the extreme left. Equally, the Fraser Institute is an organistation of the extreme right. ...

The BCTF has been at war with any government that wasn't NDP and was even at war with Mike Harcourt because he wasn't red enough. They then tart up their propaganda saying their agenda is "all about the kids," which as a parent of school age children, I know is utter poppycock. Their last strike really angered parents and they have laid low for a while and sacked Jinny, "I am not a parent" Sims.

Calling the BCTF the extreme left, alongside anarchists and communists, is a ridiculous exaggeration. Calling the Fraser Institute part of the extreme right, comparable to Kate McMillan's SmallDeadAnimals crowd and the Canadian arm of the John Birch Society, is also an exaggeration, though maybe a bit less so.

The historic revisionism of the second paragraph is oddly reminiscent of what real extremists do to justify their cause. The BCTF has not been "at war" with every BC Govt. During the first five or so years of Bill Bennett's administration most teachers were satisfied with their salaries and voted accordingly. Come the 1982-83 "Restraint" program, with Bill Vander Zalm as Minister of Education, exhorting teachers to train their pupils to "write good", things did turn a bit sour.

I don't recall any particular conflict between Harcourt and the BCTF, perhaps Wilfred can refresh my memory.

As for the strike by teachers in 2005, the surprising thing was that they had public opinion on their side, contrary to what Wilfred says.

Has anyone used these test

Has anyone used these test results to seek a statistical relationship (prediction) between results and such variables as: income level of the community, proportion of special needs kids, funding per pupil, private funding per pupil (including fees for activities and funds raised by PTAcs etc), rural/urban, average distance from school (commute, or commute time), student teacher ratio, age of school, etc.?

Such analysis would make it possible to start asking whether schools are outperforming or not, taking account of their situation. (always with caveats about data adequacy).

The analysis might also generate eduated pressure to improve policy-dependent determinants, raising the performance of the whole system

Even better, the Ministry should collect and publish such information (the cost would be miniscule compared with the tests results themselves).

I've been teaching special

I've been teaching special education in BC for 20 years and can tell you what I've seen.

At the school level, the FSAs are a waste of instructional time. Elementary students do "play with" the test. I have spoken to students after they have written the test and they have told me that their entire class made patterns on the answer sheet (before using the computers) because the test didn't count for grades.

Teachers do not see the completed tests which is a great loss since a teacher would learn far more from examining the student's work. We do not see the marks until towards the end of the school year (which has at least improved) so it is difficult for the teacher to remediate any problems or build on strengths as shown by that particular test on that particular day. I have also seen many students cry due to frustration, etc. before, during and after writing the tests.

Students who have IEPs which state that they are to receive assistance with tests by having a scribe or someone read to them must be given that help while writing the FSA. That means that Teacher Assistant and Special Ed. Teacher time is eaten up while the tests are being written, taking service away from other students.

I have tried to discover what is done with the results of the tests and I can't find anything other than the Fraser Institute's rankings. No extra funding is provided to schools that have a low ranking. Nor is extra funding given to students who score below grade level. I have never known a teacher to receive any feedback on his/her teaching because of FSA testing either.

The actual writing of the tests now requires that school computer labs are shut down so that the target classes can do the FSA. It usually means that Learning Assistance and sometimes Library programs are put on hold so that there are extra bodies to help monitor students writing the FSAs or, in the case of split classes, monitoring the students in the other grade who are not writing the test that year.

So tell me, please. What are these tests used for other than ranking BC schools unfairly without taking into account demographics, etc.???

Oh and for the record ... the BCTF did not tell me what to say. I am a big girl. I can form opinions on my own just as my fellow teachers do every day. And Jinny Sims was not booted out. Her term of office was over and she chose not to run as President again.

My son did not write the FSA in Gr. 4 and his education is not suffering one bit. He will not be writing the test in Gr. 7 this year either. If need be, he will stay home and do something valuable and educational with his time as opposed to sitting all day in front of a computer that will probably crash while he's trying to write the test. No thanks!!!

"FYI, engineers are legally

"FYI, engineers are legally required to "write tests" to guarantee the quality of bridges and cars they build. They have to sign their name to them, and can be held legally accountable if an error or omission on their part causes damage or injury or death."

Exactly, they're legally required to guarantee aspects of the quality of the things they build. Their customers trust in their training, they certainly don't judge the quality of their work on the basis of a single exam. No other profession would stand for such a measure, because a single written exam couldn't possibly determine who is the best doctor, or lawyer or engineer.

I don't have a problem with evaluating schools and teachers, but if you're going to do it, you have to measure relevant things. A single written test, administered to students as cheaply and possible, not only won't tell you anything about the quality of schools, it will do actual harm to children and their parents who misinterpret the data gathered as actually measuring something relevant. The job of public schools is to educate children, not to teach a test.

I know politikin' when I see it

Regardless of the high and mighty sounding rhetoric, I know poliikin' when I see it. Fact is, the BCTF is a political organisation with a socialist agenda. That is fine with me, too, they have every right to spend their member's dues as their members see fit.

The BCTF also is quite skilled at advancing the interests of its members, too, and again, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is their rather loose interpretation of statistics, for example conjuring up a dream budget of $1bn in new spending, getting $300bn and screaming about a $700m budget cut. The majority of people are not stupid and can see through these shenanigans.

However, there are many people who see what the BCTF's agenda is and simply discount their prognostications of doom as a pile of twaddle.

I am a parent of school aged children and overall, the system is pretty good but don't tell me there isn't gold bricking and slacking going on in teachers because there plainly is.

James

The relevance of this "test" to the topic at hand is not entirely clear to me, but I'll play along for the moment.

If an engineer generates a set of design docs for a bridge, signs off on them, and then the bridge falls down, the engineer will face legal liability on the basis of that one "test" he/she/it wrote. Maybe the engineer was tired. Maybe the workers didn't follow the plans carefully enough. Maybe inferior materials were used. Those are all extenuating circumstances, but the fact is that the "test" will be the basis for the judgement.

Now, when it comes to the FSA, no-one anywhere is suggesting that a teacher will be fired, or have their career affected on the basis of the FSA. Not even the evil right-wingers at FI.

What people (like me) are suggesting, is that it's a handy tool to provide a ballpark estimate of how well a given organization is performing relative to their peer group. And this is especially true when there is NO OTHER WAY of evaluating the organization.

I took the time to go to the BCTF website and read their position on the FSA. There's a bunch of interesting, valid info. I'm enlightened by it.

I also read their position on the accountability of the teaching profession. What it boils down to, is that teachers are internally accountable to themselves, and that's all the accountability that's necessary. The only external accountability that's required is for school boards, the ministry of education and the govt, because anything that's not right in schools is their fault.

To put it mildly, that doesn't pass the sniff test with me, and calls their high-sounding statements on the FSA into question.

When someone in the BCTF or elsewhere in the teaching profession proposes a real, honest way for us parents to evaluate the performance of the people teaching our children, with real power to make changes where performance is poor, then I'll say the FSA can disappear. Until then, my opinion is that all this fuss about how it hurts children is just a smokescreen.

Your opinion may be different.

But it's NOT!!!!!!!!

"What people (like me) are suggesting, is that it's a handy tool to provide a ballpark estimate of how well a given organization is performing relative to their peer group."

It's a worse than useless tool because it's giving out erroneous data. The kids don't try, the teachers don't have time to mark it properly, and every school has varying degrees of parent participation (a huge factor in a student's success), among other variables.

It's surprising to me to hear an engineer advocate measuring something with an improperly calibrated instrument. Do you think you can build a good bridge with instruments that only measure in increments of one metre and further, those demarcations may or may not be accurate?

Let's not abdicate our due diligence to the Fraser Institute when it comes to assessing public schools. Let's do the homework ourselves. What you suggest is akin to paying the class Creationist to write an essay on Evolution.

a question foobar?

"When someone in the BCTF or elsewhere in the teaching profession proposes a real, honest way for us parents to evaluate the performance of the people teaching our children, with real power to make changes where performance is poor, then I'll say the FSA can disappear."

What makes you think you are equipped to evaluate the teachers' performance?

Further, schools have principals and it's their job to make those appraisals. And, I'll say it again. If an individual can't figure out if their children's teachers are doing their job adequately without school rankings, then it's that parent that's the one dropping the ball, not the BCTF or even the Ministry for that matter.

Dang it

Y'all are getting me so riled I can barely punctuate properly! I blame my teachers. NOT.

i have yet to meet a parent

i have yet to meet a parent in my community that believes the bctf's claim that these tests are harmful to kids, (b/c they aren't), and the papers have been loaded with letters and articles that oppose it. this crusade will cause nothing but negative publicity for the bctf, and if carole who? hitches her horse to this wagon she'll pay for it in may.

'Further, schools have

'Further, schools have principals and it's their job to make those appraisals.' the process is so burdensome, thanks to the union, that most principals don't bother.

stump

>>It's a worse than useless tool because it's giving out erroneous data.<<

You believe that, I don't. Your position is ideological, mine is practical. I take the data I have at hand, gather supporting information to help evaluate the veracity of the data, and make use of it within bounds that make sense.

>>It's surprising to me to hear an engineer advocate measuring something with an improperly calibrated instrument.<<

Engineers do what they can with imperfect data and knowledge all the time. That's our job. If you know how your instrument is mis-calibrated (if it is), you can still use it productively.

>>What makes you think you are equipped to evaluate the teachers' performance?<<

I was educated by teachers. My children are being educated by teachers. My friends' and acqaintances' children are being educated by teachers.

You seem to be equipped to evaluate an engineer's performance based on a bunch of comments on a blog.

>>Further, schools have principals and it's their job to make those appraisals<<

I have a boss. Will you give up the right to read reviews about the products I produce before you buy them, because my boss appraises my performance?

I guess we've reached the point where there's not really much more left to be said. We'll just have to disagree and move on.

principals and process

Thanks to the union? There's usually two sets of interests at the bargaining table and a reason it's called a collective 'agreement'.

"Wah-wah, living up to the terms of the contract makes my job hard." Typical drivel I've heard before. Invariably from management.

Rank

Foobar, where exactly is it publicly published how good an engineer you are in comparison to other engineers? If that information isn't available in an easy to see ranking, like the Fraser Institute's ranking of schools, why not? Doesn't the public have the right to know at a glance how good you are at your job?

instruments

"If you know how your instrument is mis-calibrated (if it is), you can still use it productively."

But the whole point here is there's no way of knowing which part isn't working. The kids not trying? The marking of the test? Or the teacher?

">>What makes you think you are equipped to evaluate the teachers' performance?<<

I was educated by teachers. My children are being educated by teachers. My friends' and acqaintances' children are being educated by teachers."

Well, there ya go. Doesn't seem to be a need for the FSA then does there? You can judge for yourself based upon experience and information from your kids and other parents.

"I have a boss. Will you give up the right to read reviews about the products I produce before you buy them, because my boss appraises my performance?"

Umm yeah, children aren't products. I think we just found the problem Houston. Seriously, you can't compare people to products or expect to derive very much useful information about individuals based upon very broad assessment that are probably error-filled in terms of the data supplied.

BTW, I've made no judgement on your abilities as an engineer. I do however would like to know why you are sticking to your position that these tests are useful given the first person accounts in this thread that have pointed out the huge gaps in their credibility? Seems unscientific, but what do I know?

"Opposition" and "Boycott" Are 2 Different Animals...

Well, it appears that the BCTF and the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario both are calling for an end to standardized testing.

http://www.etfo.ca/MediaRoom/MediaReleases/Pages/Teachers%20Call%20for%20End%20of%20Standardized%20Testing.aspx

Opposing and calling for the end to standardized tests in Ontario is one thing.

Boycotting standardized tests by the BCTF is another animal altogether and, as I stated earlier, is akin to insubordination against one's employer.

That's certainly gonna create havoc during next month's FSA's and in the school system. Very counter-productive.

If the BCTF feels so strongly against the FSA and the Fraser Institute, then the NDP should publicly confirm that their official 2009 party platform includes the elimination of FSA's.

Then let the BC public decide in the May, 2009 election.

Now that's what I would call both reasonable and real democracy.

baloney

16 hours of testing! What a piece of nonsense. That's more than three days of classes to provide little more than anecdotal information about a 'school's' performance.

Those who think teaching in public schools is a sinecure should spend some time in a classroom with 1/2 a TA, 28 total students out of which student body three or four are special needs students.

Just stop funding private schools of any kind Ms Bond and start paying the costs of actually responding to the needs of kids in classrooms...I’d love to see the rationale this ignorant and arrogant woman uses to suggest that there are only ‘certain’ conditions under which parents can refuse to have their children involved in this utter waste of time.

Strawmen and other tales...

<>

James, I, and most engineers, work in the private sector. Every time you choose to buy one brand of product over another you rank the quality of the engineers. Let me know when I'll be allowed to choose which teacher gets to teach my kids. That's just as good a straw-man argument as yours.

BTW, if you're really interested in knowing which engineers not to trust, head on over here:
http://www.apeg.bc.ca/enforcement/index.html

Perhaps you could help me find the list of teachers who've been disciplined for various offences recently?

<>

Well, there you go. I never could figure out why my kids don't just do whatever I tell them. You learn something new every day.

<>

I think I've laid out my position as convicingly as I can. Perhaps you should now turn your attention to asking why the BCTF believes these tests are useful? To re-quote: "[T]he union's president Irene Lanzinger told The Tyee ... "We're not opposed to the FSA. We just want it done differently so we can put an end to the unfair ranking by the Fraser Institute."

" Let me know when I'll be

" Let me know when I'll be allowed to choose which teacher gets to teach my kids. "

As soon as you pony up the cash for private school.

Stump

You're right I was doing that. I don't know, but suspect that things have been softened up a good deal back there, to accomodate all the furriners and make them fee like, included. But I could be wrong.

My point was, that there was solid, long-standing tradition of annual standardized testing, and it didn't seem to do damage to people's sense of self-worth (you know, the happiest-go-lucky people on Earth, yada yada yada!)

I do not know what they are testing for in the US, but I hope it will do some good in the long run.

Product choice doesn't

Product choice doesn't indicate quality, how well a product performs its intended role indicates quality.

But if a simple test that ranks engineers by a numerical score can't indicate the quality of their work, why would you think a simple test that gives a numerical score could ever hope to judge the quality of a school?

Strawmen continued....

<< But if a simple test that ranks engineers by a numerical score can't indicate the quality of their work, why would you think a simple test that gives a numerical score could ever hope to judge the quality of a school? >>

I didn't say that, did I? I work in the private sector. You are not required to make use of my services. So you don't need a test or a score. Nonetheless, if want to come up with one, go right ahead. I have no doubt that if there was such a score, and a ranking, you'd be quite capable of using it appropriately to evaluate whether you want to buy anything I've had a hand in making.

BTW, no comment on the fact that if professional engineers screw up, it's right out there in public, on the web, forever?

<< As soon as you pony up the cash for private school. >>

So Stump, you're in favour of privatizing schools, then?

g west...

Personally I'm a fan of the public school system and enjoyed them years. Private/independent schooling isn't to my taste.

That said, around 10% of BC students are within the BC private/independent school system. And parents should have that choice if they so wish to pay additional tuition. Many are religious denominational schools, whereby the parents of the students come from all political persuasions.

In fact, the threat by the Dave Barrett NDP government to withdraw said public public funds from the private/independent system contributed to its defeat in 1975. No political party has touched that political hot potato ever since.

Let's look at the financial implications:

With your proposition, the BC government would have to ante up a good chunk of change for the provincial education budget every year.

It gets even worse:

http://www.ourkids.net/bc-private-schools-british-columbia.php

Now look at how times have evolved. Teresa Townsley was the federal NDP candidate for the riding of Newton-North Delta in 2008. More importantly, she concurrently was also the vice-chair of the Delta School Board. And do you know what she was advocating for the Delta school system???

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:azHM59fEhAkJ:abbytraditional.com/pdfs/traditionalcirculars.pdf+%22Teresa+Townsley%22+%2B+%22private+schools%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

Pretty progressive stuff, n'est pas?

"James, I, and most

"James, I, and most engineers, work in the private sector. Every time you choose to buy one brand of product over another you rank the quality of the engineers. Let me know when I'll be allowed to choose which teacher gets to teach my kids."

False analogy. I don't get to choose which engineer designs and builds my product. Only to choose from the final product. Just as you can choose who to hire and from what engineering school (a better comparison)

"So Stump, you're in favour of privatizing schools, then?"

Nope, simply answered your question. Want to choose your kid's teachers... send 'em to private school. They're keen on the FSA rankings, seems like they're a good fit for your requirements.

luke

Your musings, in my view, are entirely wrong.

The public system is the ONLY one the public should be funding - ever. And surely you know that the growth of funding for private schools is increasing at a faster rate than the funding for public schools - a trend which is entirely unsustainable.

I happen to know of dozens of young teachers who cannot get off the sub list and numerous vacant school rooms. I welcome any children now attending private schools back into the public system and the sooner the better - if a few new schools and a few new teachers are needed, that's a good thing.

I don't care what one particular federal NDP candidate thinks - it is entirely irrelevant. Public education is a public trust; religious education, for those that wish to pay for it is just fine too. But don't ask me to watch while your government ruins the public system by under-funding, poor planning and neglect while it caters to the need of Christians, Muslims, Jews or wealthy businessmen. It’s time to stop pandering for votes and do what’s right.

I could care less - the needs of the majority of British Columbians and the absolute requirement of an excellent public school system is far more important. Even if that system occasionally turns out the odd graduate who can't understand the distinction.

It is the price we pay for a decent and equitable society. The results of having a government for the last 8 years that doesn't give a shit is clear. Time for a change and time for some straight talk and a lot less spin.

g west....

And those words are in complete contravention of two respected bodies:

And, more importantly, closer to home here in BC, the final arbiter on that matter, the Sullivan Royal Commission on Education in BC:

http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/independentschools/geninfo.pdf

I rest my case.

rights and the UN declaration

Asserting the right doesn't necessarily mean the state must subsidize the choice. People have the right to worship, but the gov't doesn't pay for church right?

- And?

"And those words are in complete contravention of two respected bodies:"

Eh, so it is somehow not possible to voice disagreement, or what? I really need this one explained, as I have learned where I grew up, that "the most sublime manifestation of democracy is the MUTUAL respect of the majority and the minority regarding their diverse viepoints."

Response to Dorothy

"My point was, that there was solid, long-standing tradition of annual standardized testing, and it didn't seem to do damage to people's sense of self-worth (you know, the happiest-go-lucky people on Earth, yada yada yada!)"

I don't think testing per se is bad. It can show improvements or areas needing improvements (for individuals). But when we hear about the problems with both the taking and marking of the tests, their efficacy in providing good data seems suspect.

But, most importantly, testing isn't teaching. For individual students, unless there is follow-up and attention to the areas in need of improvement, the tests are a complete waste of time. Further, I don't think Grade 4 or Grade 7 students benefit much from the pressure. The idea that it builds character in some way (to fail) strikes me as a very long stretch and more likely to discourage rather than encourage a child.

Legal Principles...

OK, let's forget about rights for right now... let's just forget about a UN declaration. Let's just say it's irrelevant.

But you should understand the significance of principles espoused by a BC Royal Commission... and in this case that's the Sullivan Royal Commission.

And that principal was established ~ 20 years ago and has never been contested in the BCSC, the BCCA, or the SCC.

In other words, it's the law here in BC.

You can't quibble with same... it's as simple as that.

To reiterate, that fundamental principle of the Sullivan Royal Commission, in part:

End of story.

Ok let's talk about engineering quality in BC

"I work in the private sector. You are not required to make use of my services. So you don't need a test or a score."

I most certainly am required to make use of the services of engineers. As an example, given the routinely poor quality of construction in Vancouver I would very much like a means of better evaluating the quality of engineers. To be frank much of what engineers are responsible for in this province, particularly in Vancouver is abysmal. If our current system somehow holds engineers responsible, then it is doing a spectacularly poor job. I know of numerous leaky condos, with atrociously wired electrical systems that routinely break down. If engineers are held to such a high standard why does so much of what they build fall apart so quickly?

"BTW, no comment on the fact that if professional engineers screw up, it's right out there in public, on the web, forever?"

Really? Well the repercussions for engineers don't appear to have much effect given most of the garbage passing for real estate in this province.

Not much of a case, unfortunately

Never did I write that I'd deny anyone anything - the right to a public education paid for by the state is open to any and to all. Entirely in accordance with the UN Declaration....

In fact, I'd like to extend the provision of advanced education to everyone capable of meeting the necessary standards - also to be paid for by the taxpayer.

In fact, that'd be a much better investment of time, resources and funds than such absurdities as P3 projects and stupid Olympics...

The Sullivan Commission is entirely irrelevant to the matter.

If people don't like the public system they are free to pay to send their kids to elite and or religious institutions - but not to expect the taxpayer to fund their choices.

You may recall the last Ontario Provincial election campaign for evidence that the people of this country tend to agree with me on this particular issue luke. I’d say the idea is entirely repudiated and if it’s not, it should be.

The number of royal commission reports sitting on shelves gathering dust is hardly something I give a damn about....it's entirely, to express it in a word: irrelevant.

The Report Card on FSAs

For those that are interested ...

http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/reportcard/archive/tags/FSA/default.aspx

I hope that works.

g west...

The report of the Sullivan Royal Commission was passed by the BC Legislature. It was proclaimed. It's the LAW.

Alright, I will assist you in writing the BC NDP's education platform for the 2009 election:

1. The BC NDP shall discontinue FSA testing in elementary schools;

2. The BC NDP shall discontinue public funding for private/independent schools;

3. ???

EDITED. DISPENSE WITH THE SNIDE INSULTS DIRECTED AT THE REST OF THREAD, PLEASE. -- TYEE MODERATOR

quibble me this

I can't quibble with the law. That's funny. Laws are never overturned are they? Society never changes does it? The ability of the gov't to fund programs never fluctuates either.

Further, what's proper and what's 'a right' are still two different things. And last I checked, dissent was still allowed and indeed absolutely crucial for society to move forward. EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- MODERATOR

Luke

I could care less - laws can be changed - and I doubt the Sullivan Royal Commission is one.

A Royal Commission is NEVER a law - you need to go back to LAW school. Please see
http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/content/site?id=freeside&xsl=/Recon/template/toc.xsl/group-S/

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Education

The relevance of this "test" to the topic at hand is not entirely clear to me, but I'll play along for the moment.

f00bar said: "If an engineer generates a set of design docs for a bridge, signs off on them, and then the bridge falls down, the engineer will face legal liability on the basis of that one "test" he/she/it wrote. Maybe the engineer was tired. Maybe the workers didn't follow the plans carefully enough. Maybe inferior materials were used. Those are all extenuating circumstances, but the fact is that the "test" will be the basis for the judgement."
There in is the rub. Is there no test to determine if the bridge is safe. Do you just wing it to see if it is and wait to see if it falls? In the educational field, we do not wing it. Evaluation is continual and on-going. It is not a one -shot affair but continuous and if used correctly it helps the student's education. We want the students to grow not be treated as data for groups who wish to destroy public education. If they are successful in destroying it, they will jump in and attempt to set up a schooling system. Do not for one second believe that the FI is being altruistic in their endeavors, they are just out to make a buck or 2. And it will cost the taxpayer a lot more if they are successful.

Engineers are not electricians

James, in response to this:
"As an example, given the routinely poor quality of construction in Vancouver"
Construction is done by tradesmen, not engineers.

"I know of numerous leaky condos, with atrociously wired electrical systems that routinely break down"
Electricians doing wiring. Electrical engineers are not allowed to wire your leaky condos.

"Really? Well the repercussions for engineers don't appear to have much ..."

Each and every one of the engineers listed on those pages is not allowed to practice their profession. Not earning money seems to be a repercussion that has an effect on most people.

The discussion about testing kids seems to over, so I'll just go back to my cave now.

Evaluation 2

f00bar, you're the one that said that, "If an engineer generates a set of design docs for a bridge, signs off on them, and then the bridge falls down, the engineer will face legal liability on the basis of that one "test" he/she/it wrote."
Now you're saying that, "engineers study extensively and intensely before designing anything, they test their designs rigorously (in theory and in models) before building things, and then typically have to have them certified by third parties, and then only are you, the general public, exposed to whatever it is."
This is getting more like every day teaching. Evaluation is on-going and continuous. You try to learn from it. This is great as this is what teachers do. Do engineers have something like FSA tests? Do they have tests that don't count for anything, are poorly written and poorly marked but are used to determine if the job is being done? Or do they just hope the bridge doesn't fall.

Evaluation 2*

Or do they just hope the bridge doesn't fall.
This should be, "Or do they just hope the bridge doesn't fall?"
Evaluation is so much fun, just like getting ready for the election.

True Colours

Well, well, if there's anything that boils the blood of the BC left it's the FSA exams. Reaction to its very name is like throwing Holy water on vampires. Mere mention invites cries of blasphemy from most teachers and the very left leaning and last bastion of old time, BC union politics: the BCTF.

The FSA was a long time coming- ironic that NDP was involved with it, but some form of standardized testing was needed to diagnose and measure the BC school system. You can't make policy and solve problems without some measurement tools. The FSA is merely one kind of tool, it certainly isn't perfect but it's a start. The BCTF's defence is that the test isn't perfect. Well, nothing is, but waiting for the perfect test to come along suits the BCTF. The last thing the BCTF wants is any tool that measures the performance of its union members. I perfectly understand their position.

However, parents generally want and favour seeing the results. And when the BCTF complains it only goes to show they don't care about the kids or parents. They only care about protecting their jobs.

Ok the election

Ok at the eleventh hour the news hour will declare they have proof that the BCTF will go on strike as soon as the election is over. The biased Main stream media will once again sway the lower mainland sheep into voting Lieberalas .They will trumpet this story on the Top dog and the papers with out checking the story.Oops sorrry it already happened.

Bobby Peru

The FSA tests were set up to assist teachers to see if they were meeting the goals and objectives of the curriculum. They were not meant to evaluate teachers or schools. Principals are there to evaluate teachers. The fact that they don't is because the administrators have too many meetings to attend and it's too time consuming for them to do it.
It is time you became more objective about these tests, they are now being used as a tool to evaluate teachers and schools, not as an evaluative tool to assist learning. That was their original purpose.

engineers vs teachers

"In case you weren't, not only do engineers study extensively and intensely before designing anything, they test their designs rigorously (in theory and in models) before building things, and then typically have to have them certified by third parties, and then only are you, the general public, exposed to whatever it is"

Teachers go to univ., test their abilities as student teachers, and are certified as capable at the end of their training. No difference from any other profession and pretty much exactly the same process you've described above.

The FSA however, is akin to evaluating oncologists based on death rate, while completing ignoring the fatality rate of some forms of cancer. Does anyone truly believe the teaching conditions in every school are similar enough that a standardized test of students will deliver valid comparisons of teacher's abilities? Because if you do... you're the who needs to stay after class for some basic instruction in reality.

NDP Website

Interesting but I cannot find anything about the FSA on the New Democrat website, nor can I find a single reference to the BCTF.

Is it safe to assume Carole James will keep the FSA when she is elected next May?

Who's the tool?

" The last thing the BCTF wants is any tool that measures the performance of its union members. I perfectly understand their position."

So, what you are saying Bobby is that principals are incapable of doing their job?

Surprising to hear you go after management like that.

caring about children

Wilfred and Luke:

All these jib-jabber about the NDP and the election proves one thing. If all you want to do is make political hay with children's educations you clearly don't give a rats-ass about whether or not they get a chance to learn to their full potential. You are so convinced of your rectitude, you won't listen to the teachers who have every reason to welcome innovations that make it possible for them to educate more effectively. That's pretty sad (to use and abuse children in that manner).

stump

Actually this comment of mine,

"In case you weren't, not only do engineers study extensively and intensely before designing anything, they test their designs rigorously (in theory and in models) before building things, and then typically have to have them certified by third parties, and then only are you, the general public, exposed to whatever it is"

refers to the process that engineers follow every day in their jobs. Not their training. If an engineer does something that will impact the public in any way, the WORK ITSELF has to be formally tested and certified.

I am not interested in getting into a pissing match about which profession is better or worse than any other. We all do what we can.

My opinion is that testing (which is a form of measurement) is a good thing. Both for evaluating individuals (like our kids), and for evaluating systems (like our school system).

It goes without saying that if you don't make sensible use of the information you obtain, you won't get sensible results.

Accordingly, I see value in the FSA. Equally accordingly, I don't make life or death decisions based on the information that the FSA provides.

If a position is based on ideology, there is no point in doing measurements, or having a discussion. It won't achieve anything. I accept that the BCTF is ideologically opposed to any kind of external evaluation of teachers, so they will be opposed to any kind of information gathering process that might possibly lead to such an evaluation.

Apparently your (and many others commenting here) opposition to testing and the FSA is ideological in nature. So, we're not achieving anything by discussing further. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

The only thing we can be certain about is that the BCTF has won. They will succeed in getting rid of the FSA, either by sabotaging the actual test (as they are doing now), or by electing the NDP, or both (most likely).

Such is life. We'll learn to live without the FSA. Parents will go back to anecdotal information when deciding where to send their kids to school. Aboriginal kids will continue to fail at alarming rates. BMW-driven west-side kids will continue to get better education than the rest of us. The BCTF will continue to whine that the only problem with the school system is that the government of the day doesn't provide enough money.

At least I improved my own education by spending some time reading the BCTF website and debating here.

I will now head back to my cave to manipulate electrons.

Ah come on f00bar

Don't live up so closely to your handle.

"Construction is done by tradesmen, not engineers."

Engineers work with architects to determine the materials used to ensure they meet all the tolerance specifications. Engineers routinely inspect the work done by trades to ensure it is being done "properly". The shoddy levels of construction in Vancouver could not occur without the compliance of engineers.

I have a number of contacts at all levels of construction, and the complaints I hear from all levels, from trades to engineers to architects, about the practices, or better said, the pseudo-legal skirting of practices, by members of their professions is legion.

If a fraction of the the kind of oversight placed on teachers was placed on the engineers in the construction industry, we wouldn't have any where close to the current levels of corruption that infest the construction industry.

One example, it would be quite interesting if journalists took an interest in the steel being used in the tunnels for the Canada Line. Where it comes from? Which engineering firms tested the steel? What the results of those tests were from all those firms, and which firm approved it? How well the steel meets specifications? Were there any problems in any of the tests? Yep, it might just prove to be a goldmine of information.

As far as I can tell, no one

As far as I can tell, no one who has commented here is opposed to testing. Those opposed to the FSA test simply want the right things tested if you want to be able to judge the quality of schools.

Please try to get it through your on/off, black/white, pass/fail brain; opposing FSA does not = "testing is bad".

You wouldn't test the steel that isn't going into a building, and say it gives you accurate information about the quality of the building's steel. The testing might tell you about the general properties of steel, but not how it relates to being used in that particular building, certainly not well enough for safety. FSA does not provide useful accurate information about the quality of schools.

THIS IS EXHAUSTING AND UNPRODUCTIVE

There have been statements made here which are just too bizarre for words.

Someone claimed that in 1975 NDP Premier Dave Barrett threatened to withdraw public funding from private schools. Those schools received no funding in BC history at all till Bill Bennett's government granted it for the first time in about 1979 or 1980. The same person claimed that a Royal Commission report was now the law. I suppose some of its recommendations may have become legislation, but as stated the claim is ridiculous.

Another person claimed that teachers evaluate themselves, and he needs the FSA to check up on that. He claimed that in his profession he's objectively judged by hard, concrete results. Nothing could be further from the truth. Whether in government or in private industry, the performance of any paid employee is evaluated and measured by their superiors, and that judgement is accepted as final by courts if a separation should go to litigation. A person dismissed might have awards, letters of thanks, whatever. If the supervisor determines their work is unsatisfactory, that's the final word.

That's the situation in a public school, a private school, a government engineering bureau, and a private engineering company. One's superiors determine the quality of one's work, for better or worse.

The notion that the public is going to become empowered to individually evaluate and then take action against low performing teachers by reading that teacher's pupils' FSA soores is a curious BC provincial mixture of ersatz populism and McCarthyism, mixed up with parents rights/family values/religious right rhetoric about caring about one's own kids.

The attraction of this dream of increased parental power reveals a lot about the real motivations the are moving the FSA supporter crowd. They dream of some day being able to make some teacher dance and bow and curtsy to keep their job, or if they fail to suck up, to fire them. When that wonderful, BC Liberal-promised day comes, parents will be truly great authorities, and teachers will always treat them with awe and respect and outright obsequiousness. That's what these people want, suckhole teachers sucking-up like mad just to keep their jobs.

The bit about caring about their kids' education is pure baloney. The only way the kids come into it, is if they see the teacher sucking up like Hell to Mum and Dad, the kid will get the message too! And when this glorious day finally arrives, and all the backtalk from the teachers and the kids comes to a halt, BC really will be The Best Place on Earth!

Some keep claiming that they are practical and objective. They then go into one rant after another about the leftist BCTF, public opinion around a 2005 illegal strike, etc., all just pure politics. Yet they claim to be objective and practical. Ridiculous.

Why?

Why does the Fraser institute have access to to the results?

Who authorized the test results going to the fraser institute?

Do they have access to individual medical imformation,sexual orientation,religious beliefs.
If all the students were all equally as smart,or all had the same level of education or even if the kids were all taught by a uniform robot there is one thing to remember.

Someone,some school,some student is going to finish first and another is going to finish last!

Just being pretentious

I've tried not call people names. I've tried to actually base my arguments in fact. I even spent time at the BCTF reading their position on testing, FSA and the accountability of the education system. In fact, I even went so far as to find out the results of the BCTF vote on the matter.

I'm sorry that my differing opinion demonstrates a lack of logic or understanding, and that I don't really care about kids.

quarry bay, the FSA results are public. Find them here:
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/reporting/achieve/fsa-bas.php

Somewhere in the article above, it's mentioned that even if they weren't public, the FI (or any interested body), could make a FOI request and get them. So, there's no stopping anyone from doing whatever they like with the results.

As you can see if you look at the results, the highest level of detail is the school summary. No individual results are published.

And you'd be amazed at what information is legally available from the govt. Consider the Vancouver Sun's database on the 30000 highest paid public sector workers:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/features/public-sector-salary-database/advanced-search.html

Right here you can find what every doctor billed the MSP over the last 7 years:

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/financial_statement.html

Maybe the CPA should grab those stats and do a report card on doctors....

Public servants salaries

Have been available online for years...for everyone making more than 70G per year.

It's hardly surprising that a publication as 'challenged' as the Vancouver Sun would have only discovered this so recently....one doesn't need the Sun's database to do it either.

Same thing is true of every doctor's annual billings to the Medical Services Plan....very old news.

Not to quibble

But,like in any sports league,it is impossible regardless of the talent to have every team in a league with a winning record.
Same thing with the FSAs --Even if every teacher,school,curriculum taught the same way,same homework same everything somebody,some school is going to lose,it`s called mathematics.

And when the results come out,just how many parents are in a position to move for the betterment of their children?

As for freedom of imformation requests,seems to me and watchdog groups trying to scrutinize goverment that all requests are not created equal, BC currently ranks(since you seem to like the ranking system) 2nd to last on freedom of imformation requests, only Ontario is worse than BC!

Just try to get imformation on ferries or BC hydro or Worksafe BC or expenses coming from the premiers office and all his paid media monitors and then there is BC Rail.

Lastly the test doesn`t help the worst student in the best overall school!