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Harper Evolved? May Doubts It
Riding the campaign train with Green leader.
Green leader Elizabeth May.
"Evolved?" asked Green leader Elizabeth May incredulously as she rode the train towards her next campaign stop. She was discussing what Prime Minister Stephen Harper might do with a majority in Parliament.
May made it clear she worried that outcome would allow Harper to dismantle public health care as he had espoused years ago before taking the national political stage. Harper has said his formerly hard right views have since evolved towards more moderate positions.
"Evolved? We'll that's good. It must mean that he believes in evolution. But beyond that what does it mean?" asked May.
Green Party leader Elizabeth May departed Vancouver Sunday night on what she billed as the first national whistle-stop election tour since John Diefenbaker made a similar journey more than half a century ago.
May plans to greet more than 90 trackside campaign rallies before arriving in her home province of Nova Scotia on Friday afternoon.
In an onboard interview with The Tyee, May talked about where Via Rail has abandoned Canadian passengers, about why she's running in one of the most staunchly Tory ridings in the nation, and about how she might go after Prime Minister Stephen Harper in the upcoming leadership debates.
Harper's base 'mean-spirited': May
As her train snaked its way through the fast-growing Fraser Valley communities that could help Harper claim the 28 extra seats he needs to form a majority government, May challenged the very notion that Harper is anywhere close to winning a majority. "I wish the media would stop talking about Harper being in majority territory. That gives Canadians the sense that he's popular with the majority of Canadians, which is a lie," May said.
"What has Harper accomplished?" May asked. "He has so closely studied these few dozen swing ridings. He has figured out how to manipulate them, how to telegraph messages of intolerance and fear, how to appeal to a base that's mean-spirited.
"He may win enough of these ridings to gain a false majority," she concluded. "But that's all it should be called: A false majority."
Ittinuar to run in Nunavut
May and her entourage arrived at the train station in Vancouver in a fleet of small, black electric-powered trucks that looked like toy Hummers. Bagpipes blared as she hugged supporters at a pre-departure rally.
"We're committed to linking this country again the way that Sir John A. Macdonald had a national dream," May told the cheering crowd of about 300 supporters. "We also share that dream of a country knit together, not one region against another but all of us together in a common commitment to future generations."
May announced the addition of a new Green Party candidate: Former MP Peter Ittinuar, who made history as Canada's first Inuk MP in 1979, and represented Nunavut under NDP and Liberal banners through the 1980s. May said her "carbon-neutral leader's tour" won't generate "anything close to the amount of carbon as jetting around in our own private planes from one side of the country to another."
"We will travel through some of the most beautiful scenery on this planet. We'll go through this country at a level where you can see all of it," she said.
"We'll be reaching out to Canadians, and we'll be asking you -- even if you can't embrace voting for the Green party -- to embrace yourselves as communities. Embrace the power of your vote. Embrace your commitment to make this a better world," May said.
"And I know Canadians can do that. Because I watched you all rise up to get me in the leadership debates."
'Trains are not anachronisms'
May spent the first hour of her five-day train ride granting interviews to the onboard platoon of television crews. In pithy sound bites, she repeatedly explained how passenger trains -- which generate as little as one per cent of the carbon emissions that airplanes do per passenger mile -- are not only part of Canada's history, but must play a role in its future.
The Green Party is advocating a billion-dollar resuscitation of Canada's coast-to-coast passenger rail network, with the addition of a new high-speed passenger line in the Montreal-to-Toronto corridor.
"We need improved rail service between cities," May said. "We need to bring back routes that have been discarded, and not only bring them back, but attempt to bring them back as high-speed rail."
As the sun set, the TV crews packed up their cameras and tottered down the train's narrow hallways in search of dinner. May and I sat down together in one of the glass-domed observation cars.
"I can't tell you how many of these journalists told me they've never been on a train before," May said, seeming a bit surprised. "If nothing else, maybe this trip will acquaint the media with the idea that train travel is possible."
She added, "We just want people to think about the fact that trains are not anachronisms."
'No longer a train for Canadians'
The equipment on which we were riding was built in 1954. For all we knew, this could have been the actual train on which Diefenbaker campaigned in 1957.
And by the time May uttered the word "anachronism," the train itself has stopped moving. We were parked on a siding in Surrey while a lumber train crept alongside.
Freight trains have the right-of-way in Canada. Advocates of high-speed passenger rail point to this as a major hindrance to modernizing Canadian rail travel. Passengers sit parked on sidings while coal and cattle are whisked to market, yet the heavy freight trains bend tracks out of alignment, rendering them unsafe for high-speed use.
May was asked whether, if trains are not anachronisms, perhaps Via Rail might be behind the times.
May guffawed.
"The way Via Rail is run?" she asked. "Yes. Management in Montreal is the problem. They have very little sensitivity to what regular passengers want," she said.
"This trip is a very good example. They've turned the Toronto-to-Vancouver trip into what is basically a land cruise. It's great if you can afford it. But most Canadians can't. And it's very slow. So -- just look around -- most of our fellow passengers are foreign tourists."
"This is no longer a train for Canadians," May observed.
Running against Harper's porter
Don't expect to see May in person back in B.C. until after election day. She plans to spend the rest of the time in Nova Scotia trying to win her seat.
That will be no small challenge. National polls put the Greens at 10 per cent, which is more than double their showing in the 2006 election. But the party has yet to win a single seat in the House of Commons.
May herself is running in Defence Minister Peter MacKay's strongly Tory riding of Central Nova -- which was long held by MacKay's father Elmer, except for the years the family loaned it to Brian Mulroney.
When asked how she planned to scrape together enough votes to unseat the McKay family dynasty, May offered the following formula: She figures to win two-thirds of the 2006 Liberal votes, plus two-thirds of that year's NDP votes, plus 10 to 15 per cent of the Tory base, plus about 10,000 people who didn't vote that year.
There was a long moment of silence in the darkened car.
"Yeah, O.K., so it's not going to be easy to beat Peter," she said. "I know that. But it can be done. Central Nova is not a family heirloom in the possession of the MacKay family."
Choosing to run 'at home'
When asked why she would choose such an uphill battle, May was equally blunt.
"Nova Scotia is my home. People talk about it as if one could just pick a riding and say, 'I want to run in B.C. because the chances are better there.' But I don't want to live in a province other than Nova Scotia," she said.
"Also, I wanted to run against someone who is part of the Harper government… not against a Liberal or an NDPer," May continued. "Stephen Harper is someone who should not be reelected. His policies are dangerous. And Peter McKay has been Harper's chief porter, running along implementing some of the worst of Harper's policies. Running against Peter gives me an opportunity to talk about that."
Jobs -- or rather the dwindling number of them in Central Nova -- are the part of the McKay record that May wants to talk about most. Among various factories to close in the last two years was one called Trenton Works, which, after more than a century in Nova Scotia, laid off its workforce and shipped its equipment off to a newer factory in Mexico.
Trenton Works made rail cars.
'Oh, Mom... kick his ass.'
May does plan to make at least one flight out of her riding this season. She will fly to the upcoming leadership debates, which many observers view as May's best -- some would say only -- chance to significantly boost her own electoral odds, as well as those of her party's candidates.
Asked what she aimed to accomplish in her few minutes on the national stage, May, a woman who has grown quite accustomed to speaking her mind freely, was uncharacteristically circumspect.
She started to talk about how she hoped to give Harper an opportunity to show himself when her daughter interrupted.
"Oh Mom! You're not saying it because you are modest," said Victoria Cate May Burton, who was sitting behind her in the darkened car. "But the bottom line is that you're going to kick his ass."
After the laughter subsided, May said she hoped to force Harper to explain some of his actions before returning to electoral politics.
"When Stephen Harper was working for the National Citizens Coalition, his goal was to end public health care in Canada," she said. "In 2004, he got away with explaining that by saying, 'My views have evolved.'"
May threw up her hands in mock confusion.
"'Evolved?'" she asked. "We'll that's good. It must mean that he believes in evolution. But beyond that what does it mean?"
May added, "I'd like Canadians to know what he did for a living before he ran for leader of the Alliance. And what he did for a living was try to end our health care system. Do they know that? I don't think they know that."
'Hang in for a good ride'
The train rolled on. A harvest moon shimmered across the Fraser River.
Arriving in Mission, the train was too long for the tiny platform, so in order to speak to the 30-something supporters who stood waiting in the rain, May had to hike her way forward through 11 train cars. So did two-dozen photographers, reporters and staffers. We all marched through sleeping cars, lounge cars and even a formal dining car, much to the surprise and bemusement of the elderly European and Japanese tourists who were cutting into their steak dinners.
The small crowd cheered wildly when May hopped down in the rain. Her speech was short and to the point:
"We won't have long here, so all I can tell you is work really hard in the time we have, don't accept any prognostications or pundits' predictions, recognize that Greens can make things happen, and we can have a political miracle. I'm not saying majority government, but hang in for a good ride."
More cheers. Quick hugs all around. And we all scrambled back aboard.
May waved to the crowd through a window as the train pulled out of the station.
"I find this so much more relaxing than flying," she said. "This is a balm to my sanity."
Related Tyee stories:
- Has Harper Really 'Evolved'
Insiders say he's changed his image, not beliefs. - Elizabeth May's War of Words
The Tyee was first to try to get to the bottom of her 'stupid' remarks. The blogosphere erupted. - President Stephen Harper
Is he governing for Canada, or just Alberta?
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- 'A Gut Feeling'
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Does BC Stand for Ban Clotheslines?
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- Death in Remand: A Jail Crammed with Risk
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
56
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RickW
3 years ago
'Oh, Mom... kick his ass.'
I am looking forward to the debate......
x4estworker
3 years ago
Harper Exposed
Here are 2 examples that illustrate what defines Stephen Harper.
Remember Maher Arar? The Canadian citizen who was bundled off by the Americans to Syria for a year of horrendous torture? It was Canadian law enforcement officials who were heavily involved in making Mr. Arar's life a living hell. And with all that, the Harper government has not held even one person in CSIS or the RCMP accountable for their gross negligence.
Remember tobacco companies who were sending cigarettes to the States and then arranging for those same cigarettes to be smuggled back into Canada to avoid paying Canadian taxes? These companies made huge amounts of money from this. The Harper government has just reached a settlement with these corporate robber-barons, who undoubedly support the Reform Party (oops, Conservatives), that saw them pay a token fine and keep most of their ill gotten profits.
Welcome to the brave new world of neo-con Canada.
Mooney
3 years ago
. "I wish the media would
. "I wish the media would stop talking about Harper being in majority territory. That gives Canadians the sense that he's popular with the majority of Canadians, which is a lie," May said.
I agree. Never forget the Canadian Media spread the Andus Reid lie of Kim Campbell winning a 44% majority tory government, before they were flushed down the toilet.
Our new government approved watersaver toilets now take two flushes to wash away all the shit.
Commissioner Gordon
3 years ago
Bring back the rails!
As much as I don't agree with a lot of Ms. May's policies, I agree with her wholeheartedly on one major point: the rail infrastructure in Canada is a joke. And this needs to change - not just for environmental reasons, but for reasons of liveability.
Why are the rail lines themselves owned by the railways? This puts them at a financial disadvantage (truckers don't have to pay to maintain the roads they use), but it also means that other users (particularly commuter rail: GO, West Coast Express, etc.) have to be scheduled around freight trains!
I think we need to nationalise the rail lines themselves, and then start building them up again in a big way. Unless we can get the money and the political will to do this, our rail network will remain a joke.
Stephanie T
3 years ago
Quote:But I don't want to
Why not? Is there something wrong with the rest of Canada? How are we supposed to believe she cares about the rest of us when she makes thoughtless comments such as this? It is small mindedness like this that will be her undoing.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Poll discrepancies. Don't trust MSM Polls.
-I'd add I'm skeptical about recent polls supposedly showing Harper with a lead sufficient to give him a majority.
Last election revealed that some polling firms had more reliable methods of data collection than others, and thus gave more reliable results.
Last time, the polling firm SES, in its SES/CPAC Polls seemed to be accurately catching changes in voter sentiment trends first, and ended up predicting the final election outcome for every party more accurately than anyone else. Right near election day last time, some other polls were predicting,as now, a possible Harper majority. But SES's data correctly said no majority was likely.
SES is again doing polling this time, but the co. has a new name, 'Nanos'. The major media outlets don't use Nanos, and so their numbers don't make the headlines as often, unfortunately.
Consider the latest Nanos tracking poll
http://www.nanosresearch.com/election/CPAC-Nanos-September-22-2008E.pdf
It gives the Tories a mere 5 pt. lead over the Libs, while the latest Harris-Decima poll gives The Cons a whopping 15 pt. lead.
http://www.harrisdecima.ca/en/expertise/election2008/
-A huge discrepancy. Who to believe?
Since SES/Nanos was decidedly more accurate last time, that's reason enough to cause serious doubts about Harris- Decima's numbers, and gives reason to believe Nanos is likely getting it right again this time.
Harper in majority territory? Don't believe it.
Bobb999
3 years ago
more on polls' untrustworthiness
I wrote the above before noticing Mooney's post had picked out the same quote from Ms. May, and made a similar point about untrustworthy polls.
My cynicism is tempered by the perception that some polling firms are actually better and more reliable than others. I don't discount them all in a blanket fashion.
But I find it odd the most widely reported polls often seem least reliable!
nominalis
3 years ago
What a train wreck!
What MS May imagines to be the important issues greatly differs from your average Canadian voters concerns.
Very few Canadians would ever be serviced by rail unless we build a few million miles of tracks. That won't happen.
Most voters are wondering how they're going to make their basic payments in the next 12 months. The lofty ideals of Ms May and her toy political party are very far removed from daily struggles.
Ms Mays visions of doom appeal to bored teens, paranoid dopers, so-called anarchists and those who hope the world ends before their revolving credit card debt catches up with them.
This Green train wreck is just that, fortunately it's all done with smoke and mirrors so nobody will get hurt much.
Except all Canadians as the Green movement spoils our election and gives Mr Harper his majority.
How desperate Ms May, give my best to Mr Nader, you may notice he's not spoiling the US election this time, the Greens have learned their lesson down south.
alda
3 years ago
divided we stand
The opposition leaders' pig-headed refusal to UNITE under the umbrella of a one-time only coalition government until rep-by-pop is passed means that the people will continue to lose out to the neo-cons - election after election. May is as guilty of this as any of them, but she's not alone.
The right wing plays Canadians like a bad violin and Canadians don't even know it.
garth_harris
3 years ago
trains and evoloution
trains ,i like and as a traveller for three tears in europe in the late sixties early seventies,i found the train sdystems over there to be utterly FANTASTIC.
i also travelled here in canada by train and LOVED the service in the mid late sixties till the mid seventies.last train ride was 1979 july first leaving ottawa to come to vancouver to live/stay.it was not a very good trip but it was CHEAP,ONE WAY.
getting our trains to do the kind of work they should be doing is something governments/parties should be promising.
and it should be a promise kept,the pollution is negligible compared to automobiles doing the same trip and the comforts and discomforts can be argued out of the equation.
as for evolution,check out whats under any slimy rock and you will find the same type of evolution that goes on in political party backrooms like those of the neocons and liberals and smilin jack scares the sh!t outta me with all his labour buddies at the dinner table.
i am voting GREEN and it ain't no PROTEST VOTE,it is time for new blood and not a rehash of old rich white guy politiks.
i want a new vision,thats EVOLUTION .
Bobb999
3 years ago
NDP, Pot Party; GRN/NDP/LIB Coalition
It's too bad Layton, unlike Dion, has a track record of treating Greens as mortal enemies, while he's been happily cosying up to another 'green' party, Marc Emery's Marijuana Party - and later trying to deny it, although the video spot Layton recorded for Pot TV IN '03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpPfYe1a6Qg
makes it clear he was wooing the pot activist crowd, inviting them to join the NDP and get active. In effect, he was inviting the creation of a 'Marijuana wing' within the NDP, or a progressive-drug-policy wing, as the NDP's stated policies of decriminalization, etc., make it clear the agendas of the two parties are in fact largely in harmony.
Jack was apparently happy to ally with the pro-pot crowd, even to the point of nominating pro-drug activists to run in this election under the NDP banner. Only when those candidates' videos recording
them toking, toking and driving, and taking acid hit the MSM - did Layton panic, seeing a blossoming image problem - and go into denial mode. But the evidence is plain to see that Emery's version of reality is closer to the truth than Layton's current, revised version.
As we know, Jack joined Harper in threatening a boycott of debates if May was included. Last election May reached out to Jack, trying to ally with the NDP, as well as the Libs, but Jack reportedly refused to even return her phone calls.
Greens, Libs and NDP have enough in common in platforms and policies that, if the BQ implodes, giving those 3 parties, when combined, more seats than the Cons, and it just might end up being Layton's stubborn intransigence that prevents a Green/Lib/NDP coalition that would deny power to Harper even if Cons win the most seats of any individual party.
Instead of May and the Greens, it could be Jack Layton who 'spoils' the election by refusing cooperation in a potential coalition most Canadians would likely welcome seeing. It could be we end up with a weakened BQ, but yet another Harper minority, thanks to Jack, just 'cause
Jack doesn't 'do' cooperation or coalition.
Bobb999
3 years ago
May's cooperative, others less so.
alda said ''The opposition leaders' pig-headed refusal to UNITE under the umbrella of a...coalition...means...the people will continue to lose out to the neo-cons... May is as guilty of this as any of them.''
-May is NOT as guilty as 'any of them', as she's made the most effort of any to reach out and try to ally with the Libs and NDP.
The BQ,of course,like Layton, doesn't 'do' coalitions, although for a different reason.
A separatist party doesn't join with federalist parties to form governments.
I'm not sure what Jack's excuse is though.
Palharry
3 years ago
canadian trains
I took the train to Calgary for the 88 Olympics. It cost about as much as the plane but it was a very pleasant experience. I'm going to take some trains this winter when I'm on vacation. I miss the train.
Frank
3 years ago
Bobb999
That's denied by at least one candidate involved who has spoken up in the comments on babble.ca
The fact is, the NDP's long-term policy of decriminalizing marijuana is what attracts the people formerly in Emery's party that are now "homeless".
Frank
3 years ago
Bobb999
According to Libs like Bob Rae, Ujjal Dosanjh and Iggy, the Libs want nothing to do with the NDP. Check out this quote from the Globe and Mail
"I don't think the Liberal Party of Canada is a party of the left. There's no coalition to be done," he said. "We're a party of the centre and people vote for us because we're in the centre."
Now you and alda (whom I otherwise have the highest respect for) can keep pushing this "the NDP is to blame for Harper" BS but the fact is the Libs don't want to be part of the coalition you're trying to create because they don't see themselves as a left-wing party.
As for Layton himself he's already said he's open to forming a coalition with the Libs after the election with him as prime minister. But again, the Libs aren't interested.
Frank
3 years ago
From Dion himself
Mr. Dion, speaking after an address to a Vancouver-area business crowd today, said he could not work with Mr. Layton in this way because the NDP leader wants to hike taxes on business.
“We cannot have a coalition with a party that has a platform that would be damaging for the economy. Period,” the Liberal leader said.
He made fun of trouble plaguing some NDP candidates in B.C., joking that Mr. Layton already has a lot of coalitions under way.
“Mr. Layton already as a coalition, I understand. He has a coalition with the nudist party [and] a coalition with the marijuana party,” he said, referring to NDP candidates who'd been outed as having smoked marijuana and one who'd resigned today after it was revealed he'd previously skinny dipped in front of teens.
“He has plenty of [experience] with coalitions.”
During an interview with CTV's Canada AM Monday, Mr. Layton refused to rule out the possibility of entering an alliance with the federal Liberals to prevent another Harper government.
“I've worked with any other party. I think people have seen that. Maybe it goes back to my days on municipal council - you roll up your sleeves and you try to solve a problem,” Mr. Layton said when asked whether he would consider entering a coalition with other parties in Parliament.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080923.welxnnocoalition0923/BNStory/politics/home
Case closed.
Its more likely the Libs would form a coalition with the Cons anyway, the only reason Harper stayed in power until now was because the Libs supported him.
monty
3 years ago
Harper so cool & dishonest
Golly gee. I saw this dude on TV in a sweater. Way cool. Only problem is the Chinese man whose home was being used as a prop, told a reporter he didn't vote Conservative & he did not know why his home was chosen.
This is called manipulation; it's one of Harper's tricks. He has a cabinet of pygmies. Shhhh. No talking.
Unless, of course, you're horny as hell...then you can date She of the Big Boobs..and we won't even do a Security Check.
If you a Big Guy from BC we'll coddle you along and reward you with Ministries (& bonuses?)
Whew, it's time for a change.
alda
3 years ago
Opp. leaders in favor need to shout it out loud
As far as I know, the only politician who has done anything meaningful in this regard is Dr. David Swann (Alberta MLA), who put out a public, formal call in the media (radio, at least) for the 3 provincial opposition parties to "temporarily" unite until rep-by-pop is established. I understand he also supported the public meetings where this topic was discussed. Discussion with the 2 other leaders (and him, although he's not the leader yet) on the radio proved that Swann is the only one of the 3 who sees the light.
The idea died over the summer, of course, and so now, unless some great (probably environmental) catastrophe strikes, Albertans march on in their boots to yet another Conservative Juggernaut Victory in the next election.
garth_harris
3 years ago
coalitions
anyone not interested in a coalition to help their COUNTRY is a PUTZ
lifting a heavy log with three people is better than getting a hernia and clogging up the health care system with stupidity,i learned that in the military and its called TEAMWORK and if you cannot get into the TEAM SPIRIT ,look elsewhere for employment you political MORONS
i want to be part of a GREAT NATION ,run by GREAT MINDS ,not a BACKWATER run by unsophisticated,egotistical ,self centred,religious bigots.
we have a great nation and we need new blood an infusion of all the great races and their ideas we have here and that means COOPERATION
and if ya can't cooperate and form coalitions , you are not doing my/our country any good , you are just beefin up your resume to look good workin in the USA somewheres.
somewhat like Campbell and his Hawiian love affair,you think he is going to work anywheres in Canada ever again,after he sells out BRITISH COLUMBIA ?
he is what i/we don't need in Canadian politics
and steven harper is a campbell clone
time for a real CHANGE
Capitalism
3 years ago
Majority
Give him his majority...
Frank
3 years ago
Capitalism
Jesus Cappy, long time no see, how've you been?
garden bay
3 years ago
Hogwash I say
Three way coalitions are never done and never will be,the liberals know that if they ever get in the same thing would happen.
Nobody is getting over 50% plus one.
First past the post,get over it.
Do you really think the liberals would play that game,after all it is the liberals "GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO RULE"
garth_harris
3 years ago
QUOTE "Give him his
QUOTE "Give him his majority..."END QUOTE
and have people like him and you sell Canada Out to the highest bidders?
you sold out MABEL LAKE yet,or just Time Shared the Alberta Cabins/Condos to the touristas?
one way or the other,you still making money off peoples backs and drinking martinis,while they sweat ?
it was martinis wasn't it? it was so long ago ...
cannot remember that far back but that was some post ! and you got the gall to put your views behind HARPER in public...WOW!
no wonder that others here love to see you back,you EPITOMIZE the HARPER MENTALITY and BLATANTLY admit to it.
geez , when will wonders ever cease !
G West
3 years ago
I remember that pretty well too garth_harris
Send me an email - we'll talk over old times
YerMomma
3 years ago
Don't like pot
myself. But I sure support the NDP.
Okay, let's look at pot:
Basically a soft drug; certainly no more harmful to one's 'psyche' than booze or tobacco. And certainly less harmful than lots of drugs foisted on the public by the big pharmas. Take triazolam/halcion, still the subject of ongoing litigation. Thousands of ordinary people are suing Upjohn, saying that it leads to suicide and even homicide. Why is it still on the market? Because 'Big Pharma' stands to gain more on its sale than they will lose on the lawsuits. Which brings us rather nicely to tobacco companies. Sure tobacco kills, but the tobacco companies knew for years that they would make more on the sale of it than they would lose in the ensuing lawsuits.
Take Viox, so toxic that it was eventually withdrawn and recalled; because there was no denying that it caused cancer, heart attack and stokes.
http://www.healthyweightforum.org/eng/weight_loss_medication/vioxx-recall.asp
My question is; how many people died before Merck & Co were forced to recall it?
Listeria: Why did Canadians die from it? Because the Conservative government gave the producers of 'junk meat' the right to police themselves. Of course they lowered health standards; they are in the business of making money and promoting their own mingy little careers ahead of the interests of the 'great unwashed.'
I'm wandering a little here; my point is that 'for profit' capitalists cannot be trusted to police themselves. That is what government is for.
And if government is controlled by lobbyists and campaign contributions we will all be the worse for it.
That's why I support Jack Layton and the NDP - They support the rights of everyday people over the rights of corporate thieves.
Check out their website:
http://www.ndp.ca/
and decide for yourself.
Dr Alexander
3 years ago
Why is Dion down with Dope and Nudity?
I never thought I would see Dion go down the Yankee path of self-righteous indignation with people who smoke pot and/or skinny dip.
If Dion took a trip to Wreck Beach, I'm sure he could scare up some more votes. He could probably have a nice and enlightening chat with Watermelon Girl. Besides, he would be pretty well assured of the fact that there would not be any Conservative hecklers on the beach to bug him (well, in the bushes maybe, the ones with the binoculars).
If Mackenzie King can get advice from his dead dog and still run the country, for heaven's sake, how bad can dope and skin be?
Frank
3 years ago
The Liberals are so desperate they've forgotten Harper
http://www.ubyssey.ca/?p=4241
Bobb999
3 years ago
admirable Ms. May/ best polling methodology
Frank said:
"As for Layton himself he's already said he's open to forming a coalition with the Libs after the election with him as prime minister. But again, the Libs aren't interested."
-Glad to hear that, although some speculate
Jack said this mainly to try to reassure voters a vote for the NDP ISN'T a vote for Harper, splitting the center-left vote, and all that.
In Dion's case, it's harder for him to talk coalition BEFORE the election, 'cause
if he did, it would suggest he isn't really in the running, even though he's in 2nd place in Canada. Canada's "Natural Governing Party" cannot admit such a thing!
My point earlier was primarily in defense of Ms. May vs. Layton, not so much defending Dion, pointing out her track record is one of cooperation and attempted alliance with the Libs and NDP, more so than Layton especially, and Dion 2ndarily. But Dion and May DID come to an agreement not to run candidates against each other in their respective ridings. What's Layton done that's concrete in this direction besides muse lately about a hypothetical coalition?
----------------------
Further on polling. Nanos, whose co. was most accurate last election, says their polling methods are different and superior because they ask open ended questions like "What party would you support if an election were held today?", without reading a prompt list as other pollsters do. This forces respondents to articulate their choice, which apparently gives more accurate results. Plus Nanos pays extra money to acquire cell phone #s to make sure cell users are adequately represented. Other pollsters are too cheap, and rely on phoning land lines, which distorts the sample. Land lines are more likely to be kept by older age groups, who are more likely to vote Conservative. Younger people are more likely to possess cells only, and are often unreachable by land lines. Too many get missed in a land line sample. And younger folks are less likely to vote Conservative. Therefore, pollsters other than Nanos end up with Cons. support #s deceptively high.
-Nanos' latest poll shows a strong shift, with Cons. with an 11 pt. lead over Libs,
38% vs. 27%. A recent prior Nanos poll gave Cons just a 5 pt. lead.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Julian West/Greens story "thickens"
Re. the NDP candidate for Saanich-Gulf Islands who just quit over past misdeeds:
Recent interviews with two women who were among the teen minors who witnessed Julian West's summer camp strip down years ago, reveal details that show it wasn't innocent nudity at all, as we were led to think, but was closer to being a-dirty-old-man-naked-under-a-raincoat-who-exposes-himself-to-young-girls-for-illegal-sexual-jollies scenario -- without the raincoat.
His sexual motivation was reportedly plain for all eyes to see, apparently judging by his swollen condition and angle of dangle.
An outcry of disgust and protest immediately erupted among the teens, he was asked to leave then and there, and further complaints were made to the Green Party, which he was representing at the time, and which was sponsoring the camp. The Greens eventually apologized to the girls but West never did.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/23/bc-julian-west-resigns.html
QUOTE: "The women said the Green party reassured them that West would not get involved in politics in the future.
They said by coming forward with their story on Teusday, it was not their intention to damage the NDP's campaign, but they said they believe that West should not be in a position of power.
They said they didn't take legal action at the time, but now, reflecting on the incident as adults, they wish they had.
'We did not take legal action out of fear we would draw media attention to ourselves, the environmental organization we were representing and the camp where the event occurred,' they said.
'As youth, we were unaware and poorly guided through the proper legal procedures.' "
nightbloom
3 years ago
It would be interesting hear
It would be interesting hear West's side of the story. I don't doubt the nudity part, but context is everything, and teen girls can get a little carried away with a story, especially in groups, and especially if it involves a penis (aroused or not). I find some aspects of the story somewhat contrived and possibly embellished. This was a long time ago. Since West wasn't charged with an offense, and apparently finally complied with the "emotional" group-outburst (I find this whole scenario difficult to picture, quite frankly), I think the whole thing needs to be treated with a grain of salt.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Blame the victim(s)
Assuming the women who have come forward aren't Conservative party "dirty tricks"
operatives - rather doubtful considering they were environmentally oriented and supporting the Greens - I see no reason to discount their story.
I doubt that male nudity alone would be sufficiently upsetting to 1990s teens to cause the reaction West's stunt apparently caused - unless their charges of
indecent exposure and obvious sexual misbehaviour are true.
Other news accounts say West was at the time trying to persuade the girls to paint his naked body. So we have an aroused adult male in a supervisory role, excitedly requesting his teen age girl charges to apply paint, likely via their hands, to his naked body. The girls were clothed, doing face painting at the time.
This doesn't sound appropriate or innocent to me. Nor likely to have been "misinterpreted" by the girls, imo.
It sounds more like grounds for an indecent exposure charge, as the two women claim.
It was an "emotional" outburst no doubt 'cause the sexual expression and motivation was obvious, shocking, and obviously inappropriate to the witnesses.
A somewhat traumatic memory like that seems unlikely to get fuzzy and distorted with time. As adults with more mature judgement, at least two have re-appraised what happened, and concluded they should have gone to the police. To me this speaks to the seriousness of the original incident, and that it wasn't an overreaction/misinterpretation by schoolgirls.
If West is in fact innocent of sexual misbehaviour, and the two women the CBC happened to find are in fact suffering "false memory syndrome", "misinterpretation", or some such thing,
surely there must be, among the group, some more level-headed women who can
come to West's defense and tell a different version. If there are such people, surely they'd want to correct such an injustice and "smear job" against poor Mr. West! -But so far they're not coming forward! Maybe that's because the CBC interviewees' version is true. Two identical eyewitness accounts is compelling, especially as no other eye witnesses are countering their version.
West being perpetrator and a public figure (even he admits he did something wrong), has a vested interest in presenting himself in as innocent a light as possible.
Thus, if any account needs to be taken with a grain of salt, it's West's, not the women's in my view.
Your attitude, nightbloom, sounds to me like blaming the victim(s).
Bobb999
3 years ago
Layton disingenuous on pro-pot NDP candidates
More evidence Marc Emery's version of reality is closer to truth than Layton's denials:
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/comment/story.html?id=ede45f8f-cc5b-4bfe-873c-6dc175c30e2e
"Federal New Democrats are left looking like spineless wimps after last week's bizarre handling of a marijuana fuss.
The resignations of two of their candidates were hastily arranged after vile, despicable acts from their pasts caught up to them.
(Make sure you're sitting down before you continue reading. Because this is horrifying stuff.)
The two gents in question smoked marijuana!
And it's on YouTube!
Something smells about both these resignations and it's not just the odour of B.C. Bud. Dana Larsen was running as a New Democrat in West Vancouver-Sunshine Coast. Kirk Tousaw was running in Vancouver Quadra.
By last Friday both of them had decided to resign from the race....
Candidates occasionally step down abruptly after some embarrassment from their past comes to light. And it's even more routine for the parties to request those resignations, which is likely what happened in these cases.
But these two gents are among the most ardent pro-pot advocates in B.C. and have been for years. Where exactly is the scandal in learning that leading dope activists actually smoke dope?
Larsen's official biography on the NDP website up until recently noted he is the former editor of Cannabis Culture magazine. "He built it into one of Canada's most successful magazines, with a print run approaching 100,000 copies."
It goes on to hail him as co-founder of the B.C. Marijuana Party.
Tousaw is also a former Marijuana Party member. In fact, he's the former campaign director.
Gee, you'd think that might have been a clue that they smoke dope.
The NDP knew exactly who these two candidates were when they welcomed them aboard. They knew exactly what they were getting into. But at the first sign of controversy, everyone bailed out. It's a bad precedent and it's based on an odd premise. It turns out the specific problem isn't their marijuana track record. It's the YouTube and PotTV videos of them toking up. One is doing so while driving, and apparently using other drugs.
That somehow changes everything. It means the drug use isn't in the past. It's right here in the now. There's no such thing as ancient history. It's all streaming live on the Internet, which somehow escaped the party's notice.
This "scandal" would have lasted about 15 minutes if the federal NDP had the courage of its convictions. It's not like they're going to form government. Surely there's room in an election campaign for a pot point of view..."
Frank
3 years ago
Bobb999
Well ya, of course that's the issue. Who said it was because they smoke pot? Even Bill Clinton did that. The issue is that in the video he's an ass, driving while stoned. Unless you're the premier of BC that's not acceptable behaviour for someone purporting to be an adult.
alive
3 years ago
"Unless you're the premier
"Unless you're the premier of BC that's not acceptable behaviour for someone purporting to be an adult."
Now, there is a good point!
Why the NDP took on Green Party rejects is beyond me! However it is interesting to see all the lifted eyebrows when it is the NDP involved.
How these people got nominated, well, guess it is the usual apathy that makes nomination meetings only attended by a few specialty groups with some agenda.
As far as vetting go, I guess there is a limit as to how deep a party can investigate? If the potential candidate says he has no disagreeable past and he has no criminal record, what can you do?
RickW
3 years ago
Stephanie T....
...don't be paranoid! A lot of people like living in Nova Scotia. Lizzie May is one of them.
nominalis:
You've just now convinced me to vote Green. Thanks, man!
Bobb999
3 years ago
May's solution, Layton's roadblock
Ms. May proposes a clever idea that would deny Harper another Cons. gov't. but it requires cooperation NOW among 3 parties: Greens, Libs and NDP...guess who's intransigent again, refusing to even return May's phone calls once again...Layton.
http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/505642
---------------------------
QUOTE: So determined is May to keep Harper from power she also told the Star she wants Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and NDP Leader Jack Layton to join her in a pact to beat Conservatives candidates.
The Green, Liberal and New Democratic parties should prevent vote-splitting that would favour Conservatives, and carve up electoral ridings according to who has the best chance of winning, May said. "We sit down and say, `Who has the best chance of winning in all these ridings?' What I've been calling for is proportional representation by other means."
She acknowledged that this partly works to the Green party's advantage because it would likely result in its first seats in Parliament.
She also knows some accuse her of wanting to cook the election behind closed doors. She says she's trying to redress a distorted system that creates majority governments elected by a minority of votes…
Layton has refused to even meet May. But May says Dion is interested in going beyond the deal he struck with her before the election call, in which neither the Greens nor Liberals are running candidates in the other leader's riding.
"Dion's willing to do more and I'm willing to do more. The problem is that neither one of us can do anything more when Layton won't because then it looks like, `The Greens are what, a sidekick of the Liberal party?' No we're not. There's a lot wrong with the Liberal party," she said.
She rejected a two-way deal between her and the Liberals.
G West
3 years ago
Who has the best chance of winning
Ummm...Bobb999, one thing I can guarantee you is that it's not the Greens.
So if Elizabeth truly wants to help keep sweatervest steve from forming a majority - in all but one or two ridings in the country - she needs to call up herself and have a serious discussion.
When the greens are prepared to direct their supporters to throw their strength (and votes) behind the next (after the conmen) strongest alternative in every riding in Canada then maybe the Libs and the NDP might listen....
It isn't Layton or Dion who needs to start this little dance number - it's Elizabeth May and the Greens.
Saanich and the Islands would be a GREAT place to make that message clear, wouldn't you think?
Bobb999
3 years ago
Layton's pot lies the issue
If driving while toking was the issue, why was the 2nd pot-activist also forced out when he was merely toking, not driving?
If driving while toking was the issue, why didn't Layton simply say, "I don't condone combining pot and driving, but otherwise we support the marijuana activist community, and share much of their agenda, such as decriminalization"?
-The most important issue is Jack Layton, whose party has had an official policy to decriminalize pot, is now denying the obvious:
Up until just lately, the NDP has not only tolerated pot advocates in their midst, but Layton has openly courted them, and even welcomed them to run as NDP candidates
- just as Marc Emery has been saying.
It's cowardice and dishonesty for Layton to pretend otherwise, just because a few YouTube videos he found embarrassing made the news cycle for a few days.
-I expect p*ssed off BC pot smokers who were planning to vote NDP, will switch to the Greens, who also favour decriminalization, in droves, after experiencing Jack's lies and insults.
Bobb999
3 years ago
May's plan
Hi G. West:
You said "It isn't Layton or Dion who needs to start this little dance number - it's Elizabeth May and the Greens."
-Well, it sounds like she's trying to start it, but feels she can't start it alone, unilaterally, without NDP and Lib cooperation, because there will remain vote splitting between the NDP and Libs, still allowing Harper to retain power.
I imagine she'd be willing to take most Green candidates out of the running, if only the other two parties would agree to her plan. Perhaps she'd be content if she could run Greens in just a few ridings, ones with the most Green supporters, maybe Saanich-Gulf Islands, which gets a lot of Green votes, although I think you're suggesting the opposite, that she should pull out of there to allow Libs to win.
I like her idea. Two way races between Greens and Cons in the right ridings could put elected Greens in Parliament.I'd like to see that.
And I'll support a plan that results in denying Harper the next gov't. I just wish Layton and Dion would agree to it!
Bobb999
3 years ago
More Julian West evidence
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080925.BCNDP25/TPStory/National
I notice it says West was "unavailable for comment" on the eyewitness accounts coming out now. If the charges are untrue,or exaggerated, wouldn't you think he'd be vigorously denying them, instead of choosing INvisibility this time?
QUOTE: In a statement, which they say is almost identical to the letter they e-mailed to Mr. Layton on Monday, the women write: "We are speaking out as witnesses of the incident and participants of the youth-lead environmental conference, which took place in May 1996 in Cowichan Lake. Mr. West was invited to speak as the local Green Party representative at the conference. At one point during the conference, he removed all of his clothing and stood naked, with an erection, in front of a large group of young women aged 14-17 years. The youth were face painting at the time and were completely clothed. Mr. West was participating in the activity when he said, 'Why stop here,' then removed all of his clothing."
The women said Mr. West left only after "an emotional and dramatic outcry from the participants."
Mr. West was not available for comment yesterday.
In an interview, Ms. Jones said she and many of the other girls there "were scared and shocked" by the incident and many are still troubled by the memory of it.
Ms. Gnyp said she is disappointed that Mr. Layton has not responded to their letter yet and the only statement he's made has been in support of Mr. West.
"If he's still supporting West, I'm confused on where he stands on women's rights," she said.
G West
3 years ago
Not Saanich and the Islands...
Andrew Lewis pulled less than 10% of the vote in 2006, remember?
It doesn't make me at all happy to suggest anyone vote LIBERAL, ever, but, in the interests of dumping Lunn the obvious choice (now that the NDP are out of the picture) is Penn.
If Lizzy May wants to give the idea of a real coalition a jump start it's pretty obvious what she has to do...and speak to Layton about getting the NDP candidate to withdraw in Central Nova.
That way she MIGHT get one seat - her own - which achieves the result you seem to want.
Why don't you send her an email?
She could also think about pulling out her Vancouver candidate from the Prince George riding - just as a start.
At the moment, the Dion forces look desperate enough for almost any plan!
Frank
3 years ago
Bobb999
Fact is Bobb, your views about the "left-wing Liberals" and the oh-so-pure Greens make me think you really don't care much about politics as long as the NDP loses.
Now I'll go have a good cry on the news the NDP has lost the "puff the magic dragon" vote.
Frank
3 years ago
Angus Reid
Percentage of Canadians that have a "favourable opinion" of the following 5 Cdn and 5 US leaders.
Obama 67%
Layton 51%
Harper 40%
May 33%
Dion 30%
Biden 29%
McCain 28%
Nader 28%
Palin 24%
Duceppe 17%
Guess that means Obama and Layton victories would please the most people in Canada
The right-wing McCain-Dion scenario, not so much.
Frank
3 years ago
4 down, 304 to go
Our Liberal "allies" have been busy digging up dirt on a 4th NDP candidate. This time by reading comments on his Facebook page. The comments he made are disgusting so I will link to them instead.
http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/09/25/todays-edition-of-last-candidate-standing-special-did-you-even-google-ndp-before-signing-up-to-run-edition/
"Unite the Left" in Liberal circles apparently means getting rid of it.
G West
3 years ago
Interesting Frank
Even if you add McCain to Palin you get less than Obama's total...not sure nightbloom will be happy to see that.
Frank
3 years ago
Durham NDP
Actually, as the following link shows, our NDP stalwart was aiming the c*** word at a fella, not a woman.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=28919541984&topic=5212
Its too bad he hadn't read the NDP platform to see if he, you know, agrees with it, before he decided to run as a candidate.
But I guess when you only get 15% of the vote in Durham anyway there's not a big selection of people willing to run.
Frank
3 years ago
GWest
I'm sure nightbloom would tell you G that the reason Palin's numbers are so low in Canada is because of the filthy innuendo put out there by CBC and all the communists infiltrating CTV and Can-West.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Pet Peeves
Thanks, G.W., for the reminder Saanich-Gulf Islands didn't deliver well for Greens last election.
It used to be touted as perhaps THE riding "most likely to succeed" for the Greens, and actually deliver a Green MP. And opinion polls there at times showed much more Green support than would actually get delivered come election day. Potential Green voters would choke at the ballot booth, apparently.
I still doubt a unilateral pullout by May would do much to help cause the other 2 parties to follow suit in a pact.
FRANK:
You think I hope the NDP "loses"? No, I hope they WIN in a coalition/pact with Greens and Libs.
And if I ever see a poll suggesting Libby Davies' so far safe NDP seat is in any danger from Cons, I won't hesitate to abandon the Greens and vote for Libby as the one most likely to beat Harper in my riding.
I don't hate the NDP. I'd much rather see Layton as PM than Harper. But this election leaves me feeling cranky about every leader, except, like most Canadians, I feel less cranky about Obama!
-I'm peeved with Harper's Cons for 1,001 reasons.
-I'm peeved with Dion for not listening to good advice from Lib advisers, for being unsellable in Quebec, and for being incapable of connecting well with Canadians generally.
-I'm peeved with Layton for his bad habits of too often stooping to low political tricks of spin, hyperbole, denial, evasive answers, and untruths.
-I'm slightly peeved with Ms. May and her lieutenant, BC's own Adrienne Carr.
Greens represent promotion of healthful lifestyles, preventative medicine, disease prevention, among other things. But Ms. May is chronically overweight, and last I saw Carr on Vaughn Palmer's Shaw Cable TV show, she'd turned positively obese. These two "healthy environment, healthful living" advocates are personally begging to acquire diabetes, heart disease, stroke, hypertension and cancer. They are walking advertisements for unhealthy lifestyle and irresponsible eating. They are thus poor role models, and poor spokespeople for the "health" advocacy of the Green party.
-And if I thought the Greens were "oh-so-pure", I wouldn't have helped "expose" (spread news about)Julian West's unpure, unacceptable behaviour as a Green in '96. I'd have either joined nightbloom in blaming the girls for exaggeration, or would have stayed mum on the thorny topic, embarrassing to Greens and NDP alike.
G West
3 years ago
Surely not!
You're criticizing May for being 'overweight'?
I'm shocked and appalled...the whole idea of role model politics, or role model anything, in my opinion, is completely offside.
If you can't make a case for whatever your politics is, on the basis of logic, ethics, science and humanity, you're not going to do it on the basis of whatever a leader looks like - or how heavily she tips the scales.
I want people to get 'involved' in politics in a democratic and collective way and I think they need to stop looking to phony positive attributes in their so-called 'leaders'.
Time for all of us to grow up - my opinion - and lay off other folks' personal foibles.
That's what is so wrong about Harper - he slices and dices the electorate into segments he can pander to.
If you don't think the Greens have an obligation to be 'Oh so Pure' then why would you want to re-make Liz May's physiognomy?
Bobb999
3 years ago
It's about political hypocrisy, not prettiness
I'm not faulting May or Carr for being unattractive or unphotogenic. I'm not talking cosmetics here, or faulting them for being "ugly women". Yes, I'm criticizing them for being fat, but not 'cause "fat = ugly", but because fat, in their case = irresponsible personal behaviour belying their own party's health promotion policies.
Let them be the ugliest health conscious, healthy-weight women imaginable, and I won't have a word of criticism against them.
I'd add that Ms. May's charisma comes through regardless of her weight. Her weight seems irrelevant to her charisma. My criticism has nothing to do with whether they'd be more appealing/charismatic to voters if their prettiness-quotient changed.
My criticism is entirely in the realm of hypocrisy among politicians, in this case two prominent Greens talking a good line on healthful-living, but living a life belying their own purported message of health promotion and personal responsibility.
If May and Carr drove gas guzzling, carbon spewing V8 SUVs, I'd be criticizing them for the exactly same thing, hypocrisy. Instead of health message hypocrisy, it would be carbon-reduction message hypocrisy.
If such were the case, it would be legitimate to criticize them for being poor role models and poor spokespeople, i.e. for Greens to be personally abusing the environment with irresponsible vehicle choices, while promoting policies demanding the exact opposite behaviour from Canadians.
They would be legitimate criticisms in both examples, not cheap shots or superficial irrelevancies.
Update:
I saw a new TV news clip last night of an all candidates meeting in front of a class of journalism students asking questions. Carr was among them. I was happy to see
she herself must have agreed with me her physical state of 6 months ago was an unhealthy, unsustainable one. She's since
taken off a lot of those disease-inviting, hypocritical extra pounds.
Congrats to Adrienne!
G West
3 years ago
I'm not convinced Bobb999
I think there's a public and private realm and remarks about people's personal appearance and or avoirdupois are on the 'private' side of the line...
So I guess you'll have to say I think the hypocrisy is not theirs.
Sorry.
Doesn't mean I don't agree with a lot of what you say otherwise - but I just don't think we need to look up to our 'leaders' or putative leaders for that kind of thing.
I've always enjoyed G K Chesterton as a writer and moral exemplar...the fact he was morbidly obese was a tragedy for HIM, and perhaps his family....and that's about it.
One of the least attractive things about the Greens, or many STV reformers for that matter (although I'm the first person to say we need a better way to elect our governments) is their preachy-ness and holier than thou attitude.
The fact we all have foibles and faults shouldn't be a roadblock to public life.
If it's going to become that, we're going to end up with nothing but deracinated clones like Stephen Harper in every elected position.
My view. Intolerance is a bad thing, no matter who is expressing it.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Indomitable May
http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/506359
The Indomitable May [Star editorial]
Sep 26, 2008 04:30 AM
QUOTE: "Now we know why Prime Minister Stephen Harper was so determined to keep the Greens' Elizabeth May out of next week's televised leaders debate.
In a meeting with the Star's editorial board yesterday, May launched a verbal broadside against Harper. Among other things, she accused the Prime Minister of "lying" about the carbon tax that both she and Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion are proposing and of spreading "mean-spirited messages that inspire fear."
She also raised Harper's past pronouncements as head of the National Citizens Coalition. "So you (Harper) said that Canada was a failed European welfare state. You said that we were inferior, and you said it to an audience of people in the United States. Don't you feel bad? Don't you think you should apologize to Canadians for saying that? Don't you think you should explain if your views have changed and you don't think we're a failed northern European welfare state and you don't think that proof of inferiority is our pride in our national health-care system? You should explain when you changed your mind and why you changed your mind."
This could be a most interesting debate."
Bobb999
3 years ago
Criticizing behaviour, not looks
"The fact we all have foibles and faults shouldn't be a roadblock to public life."
-I said I was "slightly peeved". I didn't say I thought they should be kicked out the Green party!
"I think there's a public and private realm and remarks about people's personal appearance and or avoirdupois are on the 'private' side of the line..."
-You're misconstruing. My criticism has to do with hypocritical, irresponsible personal BEHAVIOUR, NOT appearance!
I'm noting their weight ONLY as evidence of the behaviour. Otherwise, I'm not faulting their appearance at all.
And obesity CAN harm others besides the overweight person, especially children. Spouses too. Children often learn poor eating habits from parents. This is one reason we have an epidemic of juvenile obesity. And obese children develop a long term susceptibility to life-long weight problems, and attendant disease risk. I see this pattern among some of own cousins: An obese father died young, early 50s, of a heart attack. Two of his three now adult children are following in his footsteps, both being grossly overweight, well on the road to dying young like their Dad.
If someone preached abstinence from addictive drugs as the only way to go, but was found to chronically have have needle tracks all over their body from shooting up heroin and/or cocaine, I might point out the needle tracks. But only as evidence of unhealthy, hypocritical behaviour, NOT 'cause their appearance is unappealing with all those ugly needle marks!
I imagine in GK Chesterton's day, the links between obesity and a long list of deadly diseases wasn't well understood, although it may have been suspected, as fat people statistically would have been dying sooner then, just as they do today.
So, perhaps obesity was a somewhat more innocent condition then. But nowadays people KNOW better. We know overeating is irresponsible eating leading to much increased risk of disease and early death. Numerous medical studies have established this convincingly by now, and evidence keeps growing.
I still say that for Green leaders especially, obesity is equivalent in many ways to driving an SUV, demonstrating political hypocrisy in personal behaviour. It's legit to fault politicians if they preach one thing and do another. If you don't walk your talk,it's legit to criticize your behaviour.
G West
3 years ago
Sorry Bobb999
Won't quite cut it - this:
Greens represent promotion of healthful lifestyles, preventative medicine, disease prevention, among other things. But Ms. May is chronically overweight, and last I saw Carr on Vaughn Palmer's Shaw Cable TV show, she'd turned positively obese. These two "healthy environment, healthful living" advocates are personally begging to acquire diabetes, heart disease, stroke, hypertension and cancer. They are walking advertisements for unhealthy lifestyle and irresponsible eating. They are thus poor role models, and poor spokespeople for the "health" advocacy of the Green party.
Is a lot more than 'slightly peeved' - no matter how you slice it, it's an ad hominem attack that has little or nothing to do with their job as politicians.
What people 'know' is between their own ears - we only know others from what they say and how they behave.
How they look, dress, or eat, should not be part of the equation.
In my view, the public and the private sphere are better kept as far apart as possible.
As Trudeau said, the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.
All I want from politicians is honesty, the truth and a commitment to do their jobs professionally and well. Don't lie, don't cheat, work for the good of all humanity and eat, wear and sleep with whomever you want.
Until obesity is in the criminal code - and I trust it never will be - it is an unfair basis upon which to criticize anyone.
As for promoting healthy lifestyles - I don't think that's a legitimate part of the political process - it's perfectly proper as part of education and health programs but that's about it.
My view.
Bobb999
3 years ago
No, I approve of Ms. May 90%+
"...Is a lot more than 'slightly peeved'"
-No. In most ways, I admire Ms. May more than any other leader running.
Just 'cause I feel she's a poor role model/spokesperson for ONE ASPECT of the Greens' platform,she remains, imo, an excellent, non-hypocritical spokesperson on global warming, recycling, fish-farming, eco-friendly forest practices...etc.
There's just one glaring exception I see, but as I'm happy with the other 90%+ of Ms. May, as far her walking her talk, that leaves me overall only "slightly peeved". You are right I'm quite peeved re. the one narrow issue, but that's tempered by the other 90%+ I approve of.
"...we only know others from what they SAY and how they BEHAVE."
-But that's what I've been trying to say on this issue! We know that Ms. May (on this one issue) SAYS one thing but does another thing, BEHAVING in a way contradictory to what she says as Green spokesperson.
"How they look, dress, or eat, should not be part of the equation."
-I don't know why you keep on insisting my criticism is about the way someone "looks", when
I've been as clear as possible on the important point that I'm concerned about irresponsible BEHAVIOUR, contradictory to claimed Green values, not "LOOKS"!
Whether you choose to agree or not is one thing, but I don't understand your apparent blind spot that leaves you seemingly unable to even grasp my argument (about behaviour, not "looks"!), or that leaves you willfully misconstruing it, for reasons best known to yourself! (But perhaps I could hazard a guess...Birds of a feather [gorge together]?).
Ms. May leaves herself open to criticism on this point. But an ordinary overweight Canadian not involved in preventative health advocacy, would not be left open to similar criticism. They may be damaging their own health (and maybe their children's), but at least they can't be accused of hypocrisy!
I still say the arguments are equivalent:
It would be just as germane and legit to fault a Green leader if they INDULGED in driving an SUV as it is to fault them if they INDULGE in disease-promoting over-eating, to point of obesity hazardous to health, and (most importantly!)CONTRARY TO STATED GREEN VALUES!
SUV driving isn't illegal either but that doesn't make it off-limits to criticism, especially if the driver is a strong, vocal proponent of carbon reduction to fight global warming,and a supposed opponent of SUVs.
If one should not be faulting politicians for flagrantly acting contrary to their own party's stated values, then what SHOULD they be faulted for?
Hey, it's been a stimulating discussion G.W., but I'm afraid we've reached a point of going in circles, and repeating ourselves, and I'm getting vertigo -- or maybe I should speak for myself only and say rather -- "...repeating myself"!
Bon appetit--?
G West
3 years ago
Y'see, that's the problem Bobb999
Because I don't accept your argument, you immediately shift to another ad hominem attack...but this time directed at me:
Whether you choose to agree or not is one thing, but I don't understand your apparent blind spot that leaves you seemingly unable to even grasp my argument (about behaviour, not "looks"!), or that leaves you willfully misconstruing it, for reasons best known to yourself! (But perhaps I could hazard a guess...Birds of a feather [gorge together]?).
I'm interested in debate, on the merits - not a slanging match with someone who's pushing a belief system or a religion instead of a political choice.
I don't think May's doing that - and I think her supporters are barking up the wrong tree when they do it too.
We have had enough social engineering and guilt tripping already. Too damn much in my view. If you can't convince folks of the legitimacy of your argument by empirical and logical advocacy - I don' think demonizing them is very likely to win them over.
Cheers.