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Can Dion Snag the New Eco-Voter?
His carbon tax push is well timed, says pollster.
Grit leader Dion: Not so dumb.
A carbon tax could be part of a "breakout strategy" that could revive the federal Liberal party -- if it's presented properly, national pollster Bruce Anderson says.
However, he says, making a carbon tax the "leading edge" of a political campaign is not such a great idea.
Anderson, president of Harris/Decima, told The Tyee that Canadians will accept a carbon tax if they can be persuaded that it will work and that it's fair. To be successful, the tax needs to be presented as part of a broad package of environmental policies, Anderson said.
Federal Liberal leader Stéphane Dion has recently been talking about the need for a federal tax like the carbon tax that will go into effect in B.C. in July.
Dissident Liberals and mainstream media pundits have lined up to tell Dion that building an election platform around a new tax is dumb, dumb, dumb.
A hard sell, but sellable
Anderson, who was in Vancouver Tuesday, said that the carbon tax is a "more complicated political idea than its advocates might like."
Based on Harris/Decima's extensive polling on the environment, Anderson said Canadian public opinion does support some of the ideas behind a carbon tax.
"People believe that governments need to bring policies to bear that will change behaviour over time," he said. "They believe also that incentives alone aren't going to be enough, that there needs to be some sort of penalty on egregious environmental behaviour, if you like, or that behaviour may not change."
But the phrase "carbon tax" is a hard sell.
"Carbon is a technical term that is associated directly with a symptom of the broader environmental problem and that limits its effectiveness from a communications standpoint.
"Tax is a term that everybody knows and understands and not too many people feel all that good about."
There are a couple of "practical tests" that Canadians will apply to a proposed carbon tax, Anderson said.
The first is: will it work?
People may look at today's gas prices and conclude they're high enough already -- that a carbon tax isn't needed to lower greenhouse gas emissions. Or they might decide that the current high prices aren't changing people's behaviour, so what good would a carbon tax do?
The second issue is fairness, something that's been a big part of the debate over B.C.'s carbon tax. People tend to worry that a carbon tax will hurt those who can't change their behaviour to avoid the tax.
Political garbage
Canadians are in favour of policies that will help the environment -- and are even willing to pay more for them -- but they want to see a broad range of environmental policies that take on more than just carbon emissions, Anderson said.
"The more they see that broad range of ideas, probably the better they'll like it," Anderson said. "The more it is focused on one particular area -- carbon -- and using one particular tool -- tax -- the more challenging I think it'll be for the Liberals."
The environmental issue that really upsets people is garbage, Anderson said. And not because they see a link between household waste, landfills, methane emissions and global warming.
"Every week or so people put garbage bags out by their house only to have them trucked away and buried in a hole in the ground not too far from where they live. That doesn't strike most people as being an environmentally sound thing to do."
Fueling 'the new environmentalism'
Anderson's company has done focus groups for the B.C. government on ways to sell Premier Gordon Campbell's green policies, but he declined to discuss the results of that work.
He did talk in general terms about what Canadians think about the environment -- and why.
In the last three years, Anderson said, "we've started to see the emergence of a new and different type of environmentalism."
This "new environmentalism" is different from the green wave of the 1980s, when Canadians were upset about air and water pollution. As voters became convinced that governments were cracking down on corporate polluters, the environment faded significantly as an issue, he said.
Three forces are driving the new environmentalism, Anderson said.
The first is extreme weather patterns, which are seen as a possible symptom of the damage we've done to the planet.
The second is the aging of the baby boom, and an accompanying concern with what boomers will leave behind.
"As the baby boom ages, we start to see a phenomena where people are starting to think about their legacy. They're thinking about it in financial terms, in relationship terms, in work accomplishment terms [and] the idea of environmental legacy."
Many people feel they're leaving a poor environmental legacy for the next generation and they want to fix that, he said.
The third factor is rising fossil fuel prices, Anderson said.
The soaring prices have people increasingly concluding that we can't afford not to shift to renewable energy, he said.
"Each of those three look to me like factors that are likely to be around for the medium to long term anyway," Anderson said. "That's why I think that, notwithstanding the occasional fluctuations in the economy that make people feel more or less anxious about their personal circumstances, the new environmentalism is likely here to stay."
Economy won't trump green feeling
People see the environment as a moral issue, rather than an economic one, which is why the new environmentalism is likely to withstand an economic downturn, he said.
Even if polls start to show an increasing belief that the economy is the most important issue facing the country, the concern over our environmental legacy isn't going to go away, Anderson said.
"Sometimes when people in my business ask what's the most important issue facing the country or the province or where you live, it's sort of a blunt instrument," he said.
The question implies that there can be only one important issue at any one time, he said.
"People like to imagine that governments can grapple with more than one issue at one time."
And the polling suggests that, in order to preserve the long-term health of the planet, "people are willing to live with some degree of adjustment, inconvenience and even some degree of cost in their life."
Related Tyee stories:
- We Can Be Garbage Free
Trash is a choice. Time for 'Cradle to Cradle' design. - 'Chump Factor' Holding Us Back
People ready to make green sacrifices if they don't feel alone. - BC's Carbon Tax Shell Game
William Rees, economist who invented 'eco-footprint' analysis, is not impressed.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
40
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G West
4 years ago
It doesn't matter
Dion's stand on the environment isn't the problem - the Liberals haven't changed - they still think that Canadians 'really' love them.
They don't.
Many of them never have and no matter how awful I think it will be, Stephen Harper is going to win the next election, in my view. It may not be a majority government but the Prime Minister will still be Stephen Harper after the vote - no matter when it comes. And, it really doesn’t make any difference – Liberals and Conservatives are exactly the same poison at bottom – their nexus with the Campbell party here in BC is about all the proof anyone needs to illustrate that fact.
As for the environment - the complete dereliction of the MSM in making any kind of a comprehensive analysis of the Campbell 'carbon tax' boondoggle for what it actually is is a pretty good indication that it just isn't going to make any difference.
As Stump often points out, we're on a downward curve and that's not going to change, Stephane Dion notwithstanding.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
crh
4 years ago
Why don't the feds take some
Why don't the feds take some of the existing gas tax that is supposed to go to roads and infrastructure and isn't, and just funnel it towards the environment. More than half is just going into general revenue as it is. WE do not need any more tax on gas!
realisticman
4 years ago
Stephane & Kyoto
Good for Stephane. We can be sure that his puppy Kyoto is barking in agreement with the proposal for a new carbon tax. This ex-Minister of the Environment understands the importance of saving the planet and he probably also knows that many voters are fed up with tax cuts. (We hear that here on The Tyee all the time.) A big fat new tax will hurt those with big fat SUVs more and so the lefties will love this tax. BC will overwhelmingly support this tax on the rich. This will probably propel Dion and the Liberals into majority territory and send the Conservatives packing.
Sure Stephane bring on those tax increases, we're crying out for them.
He needs to make a strong move now! Particularly when scribblers in the MSM keep trying to fool us with biased opinions, such as this:
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/428528
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Carbon Tax
Since Dion is a red Liberal on the centre-left of the party (unlike the blue Liberal Paul Martin), I'm not surprised that he's looking at a carbon tax nationally.
It looks like he's trying to eat into the Green vote, which has even tied the NDP federally in polls at times.
When the Green vote almost tripled in the recent urban by-elections in Vancouver Quadra (13.5%) and Toronto Centre (13.6%)
from 2004 one can see why he's looking at the carbon tax for an environmental strategy.
As for BC, the latest federal results from Mustel show that the Tories and Liberals are neck and neck:
Tory - 33%
Liberal - 33%
NDP - 22%
Green - 11%
If those numbers hold, the Liberals will increase their urban presence in Victoria and Burnaby/New Westminster.
http://www.mustelgroup.com/pdf/20080424.pdf
freebear
4 years ago
New Eco-Voter?
New eco-voters, were there any old ones?
Its a joke!
I am sure many will take their BC carbon tax rebate and use it for purchasing gasoline!
Only when we can not afford to move - people, goods, materials - will we ever re-design the way we live.
Anything else is just political manoevering and green wash marketing!
For example: the carbon tax will make us more sustainable!
Really!
That assumes we are sustainable now, which of course we are not.
Good luck Earth!
mcdull
4 years ago
Carbon tax
Just another tax on the poor and one that really cannot be justified. Call it a consumption reduction tax but anything but green. As my father and others who lived in small towns and cities in the 1920's and 30's will tell you the air is clener now. No smog, no coaldust all over the laundry' And whites don't turn grey in days from the particles in the air.
realisticman
4 years ago
Oh, come on Jack!
A bit of weatherstripping won't save our planet!
OTTAWA — May 22, 2008 - NDP Leader Jack Layton
“Canadians believe that it's high time we place a price on carbon. While many, like me believe that the most effective way to price carbon is through a cap-and-trade system where the big profitable polluters begin to pay their fair share, others suggest a carbon tax. ..We can do it through a national energy weatherizing program. "
Environmentalist David Suzuki recently praised the Liberals for considering a carbon tax and criticized the NDP for not supporting such a move.
Romeogolf
4 years ago
Cannot be justified?
McDull, just because particulates in the air have been significantly reduced, it doesn't mean there is no problem. CO2 is invisible.
A carbon tax is entirely justified because it finally imposes the cost to the environment on commerce. The reason we're in deep trouble right now with respect to global warming is that the reduction of natural capital was externalized. There was no feedback loop to a company to signal its practices were unsustainable.
As Ed Deak will tell you, costs can't be externalized; they are re-allocated. The current freakonomics distorts reality.
mopled
4 years ago
Dion hobbled by AGW/CC
There is more reason to think that we are in for a cooling period.
"Now it’s not just the sunspots that predict a 23-year global cooling. The new Jason oceanographic satellite shows that 2007 was a “cool” La Nina year—but Jason also says something more important is at work: The much larger and more persistent Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) has turned into its cool phase, telling us to expect moderately lower global temperatures until 2030 or so."
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2871
As the weather refuses to cooperate with the"Global" Warming scam, Dion will look more and more like a fool calling for new taxes and restrictions to solve a non-existant problem.
Not only that, taxes on energy when Ontario and Quebec, the only places where votes really count, will have to use more just to stay alive in winter, is not going to go over well with the average person.
GWest is probably calling it correctly, another minority government for Harper who will govern as though he has a majority. I think I'd rather have a real robot with better programming.
Romeogolf, you have a lot of catching up to do about CO2, a beneficial traces gas upon which all life depends and which can not change climate.
http://co2sceptics.com/news.php?id=1041
"In the ice core record, CO2 increase has always lagged behind temperature rises and the lag involved is estimated to be 400 to 800 years. There has never been a period when a CO2 rise has preceded global warming. I have seen it argued that the past 30 years has been so exceptional that it MUST, for the first time in the history of the globe, be CO2 driving the warming trend. That is an assertion of such low probability that it should require very powerful evidence to support it. I have seen no such evidence. Indeed, on a cursory inspection the slow but steady increase in atmospheric CO2 is clearly not coming through in a slow but steady rise in global temperatures. Instead we see rises and falls in global temperatures that bear no obvious relationship to the steady rise in CO2 unless one puts the cart before the horse and announces that there is no other possible reason and the trend period adopted is carefully chosen to suit the proposition. "
And the air is certainly better over all than it was even 30 years ago.
ursus
4 years ago
Air
How can the air possibly be better then it was 30 years ago with the industrial expansion in China, India and all the work in the tar sands, the air up there is thick with pollution.
Edmonton has also seen a huge increase in industrial activity. How many oil wells were set on fire in Iraq during the last two wars there, do you think that stuff goes away over night, I don't.
If trees are a big benefit to us, cleaning the air and providing oxygen then the air must be getting a lot dirtier on that count alone since we have a pine beetles chewing their way through our Pine Forest on their way to Alberta's.
We also have all the other harvesting going on in the rest of the Province.
Cheers.
monty
4 years ago
The air in Vancouver was frequently dirty
and fog was a frequent visitor in the in the 1950's. Due to the sawmills in False Creek, Sweeney's barrel construction site and other projects that left seriously polluted land on the north shore of False Creek.
Tax the hell out of the destructive actions at the Fort McMurray tar Sands, fine firms polluting those waterways and spare the public from more gas taxes. Seniors on limited incomes, the poor, the queezed middle class have enough on their plate to cope with rising prices, hydro prices, heating prices and food prices take off and fly skyward. We are not an endless money pit. Maybe they should try the corporations of the Big Banks who wrte down a billion or so today.
Mr. Dion needs to give a lot of thought to what is his trying to do and the possible serious ramifications it may have. Then of course perhaps Canadians will finally wake up to the fact that Harper is running a Secret Government where he and a few Cabinet dudes (dudds?) hangout Hells' Angels.
no1important
4 years ago
It does not matter how this
It does not matter how this is sold. the federal liberals are finished as long as they keep Dion as leader.
The latest poll on April 23rd taken after that last Mustel poll posted above.
Had the cons at 37%, Libs at 28%, NDP at 20% and greens at 14%.
http://www.nodice.ca/elections/canada/polls-britishcolumbia.php
The cons are fear mongering on how gasoline will go up 50¢ a litre and no matter how Dions plan sounds (if he ever tells us the details) that is what people see.
gglave
4 years ago
Practical Tests?
>There are a couple of "practical tests"
>that Canadians will apply to a proposed
>carbon tax
I would argue there is a third test: Concrete PROOF that the tax will not just pour into the bottomless pit that is 'General Revenue.' When I buy a new car battery or a can of spray paint I pay an environmental fee. Where does that money go? Who knows. If I buy a return plane ticket to Calgary I pay a ten-dollar "Air Travellers Security Charge." Where does *that* money go? Again, who knows.
If there is a concrete audit trail showing that every nickel of a carbon tax goes to transit or building nuclear plants then I think Canadians will support it. If it goes into a giant pot to buy a million Canada flags to ship to Quebec on July 1st, then Canucks will boil - Global warming or not.
G West
4 years ago
gglave
Excellent points.
And that's precisely what's wrong with Carole Taylor's little follow the pea exercise which, sadly, the usual environmental suspects - anxious as they always seem to be to share the spotlight with the CEO premier - have entirely overlooked.
Instead of using the planned 7 cent/litre tax (the first 2.4 cents of which will be applied in July) to address the need for positive change and altered behavior, transit and the like, it will simply pour into a kind of bureaucratic cream separator, spin around for awhile and get spit back out as pandering $100/head payments to every man woman and child in the province and further tax givebacks.
Not only will the whole facile exercise do nothing to address the real need for a reduction in CO2, it will end up using up, through the normal bureaucratic and administrative machinery, effort and resources that could have been put to better use.
And, don't hold your breath until you see the list of exemptions that will undoubtedly be provided in the regulations - but don't expect they'll do anything to actually help the small businessmen and women who can't run their businesses without paying hundreds of dollars more out of current revenue for diesel and gasoline just to keep on losing money or, if they’re lucky, breaking even.
Unfortunately, our finance minister seems to have been more concerned with incorporating a section in the act that ensures she will have her own ministerial salary docked by, I think, 10%, if the mechanism of this monster doesn't truly grind out revenue neutral hamburger. Talk about form over substance.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
LeftSeater
4 years ago
Nice guys finish ???
How long will it be before the Federal Libs gather together and toss Dion a concrete life ring? Dion is a lightweight/nice guy who flits from issue to issue in a party which requires a Titoish style of leader to keep the different factions toeing the party line.
Maybe if Dion will contemplate a Trudeauish “walk in the snow”, the Federal Libs might want to have a charter jet for a flight to Greenland on standby to facilitate him.
Perhaps then, Dion can take up dog breeding and see if his mutt Kyoto can deliver a couple of whelps.
He could always name them “carbon tax” and “cap and trade” in memory of a questionable policy which, in some minds, coulda been a contender……….
realisticman
4 years ago
Three pups better
Carbon & two named Oxygen.
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
DAVID SUZUKI - LIBERAL HACK
Environmentalist David Suzuki recently praised the Liberals for considering a carbon tax and criticized the NDP for not supporting such a move.
As you well know, realisticman, David Suzuki's endorsement of Dion's approach, and his criticism of the NDP, is clearly not the result of any public policy considerations. It's a purely political calculation. Where can he and his Foundation throw their vocal support in order to get the maximum benefit for that organization, and of course, it's wealthy donor community.
Ask yourself this question. Of those people who give the Suzuki Foundation more than $5,000 per year, what percentage do you think are just tea-sipping, millionaire heiresses who've developed a serious interest in birdwatching, and how many are career professionals and business executives in the "green" industries, everything from selling solar panels and wind turbines to doing some kind of enviro consulting and event managing?
ME2
4 years ago
Dion
Dion, you say?.....Dion who?.....He's the Liberal leader, you say?.....Oh.
realisticman
4 years ago
Suzuki
and Kyoto. Eyes looked east for inspiration. Dion was environment minister for a few years and, really, did nothing. Now he's thinking of running with it again. Campbell brings in, through Carole Taylor, a revenue neutral carbon tax, so the opposition in BC has to oppose it and therefore will have to oppose Dion's one too. So BC Liberals will be really upset. Federally, the NDP will have to oppose the carbon tax since they want Liberal voters but they'll have to drop the whole green thing of theirs; especially when they put statements like the following on their web site:
Dion looses the whole of the west and the NDP looses the whole enviro plank. The circle is squared.
G West
4 years ago
Revenue neutral nonsense tax
Have you actually read the bill?
You should - you'll be pleased to know your buddies in the cruise ship and international air travel industries get an exemption.
It is nothing but a money Wurlitzer – exactly the sort of money laundry that has been in the news lately associated with another ethically challenged aspect of the Campbell kleptocracy and it will do absolutely nothing for the environment.
If Dion institutes such a sham system as part of his platform he'll do even worse than he seems likely to do - perhaps even giving pee wee a majority - God help us.
Please, get a copy of the Bill and read it.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
ME2
4 years ago
NDP please take note
From the May report of the Angus Reid Forum.
Canadians Support Labour Unions, but Many Think They Are Too Political
More than a third of respondents would amend the Labour Code to prohibit employers from hiring replacement workers
Canadians perceive labour unions as an essential part of our society, but think they have become too entangled in political activities, a new Angus Reid Strategies poll has found.
In the online survey of a representative national sample, more than half of all respondents (59%) say labour unions are a necessary and important part of Canadian society, and 69 per cent think they effectively improve the salaries and working conditions of employees.
However, 49 per cent of respondents say unions have too much influence in Canadian life, while 25 per cent believe they have about the right amount of influence. The vast majority of respondents (72%) think unions are too involved in political activities.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
realisticman...
Yep, the same old same old. OTOH...
It's hard not to conclude that the New Democrat Opposition has made a critical mistake in coming out against the carbon tax. It's not that their position -- whatever it is -- is wrong. There's lots to argue about in the tax plan.
The problem is their mushy, ill-defined stand reveals fundamental problems in the NDP caucus. They're terrified of offending anyone, because they want everyone to love them. They still vastly prefer consulting, studying and talking, talking, talking as opposed to actually doing something.
And they took a perceived opportunity to make some cheap, short-term gains and put it ahead of their principles. It's inconceivable that a party which avidly embraced a stringent sustainability principle in a convention just last fall could turn around and vote against a measure that reflects that principle.
And the particular design of the tax -- a gradual introduction, low-income protection, a cast-iron assurance it will be offset by tax cuts elsewhere -- looks now like one of the most adroit climate change moves made by a government anywhere.
So the Opposition faced an acute dilemma. Should they swallow hard and support the tax? Should they argue vigorously over details and then vote in favour? Or should they oppose just for the sake of opposing?
But it ignores the fact the carbon tax was actually fairly well-received. A recent poll found a strong majority willing to pay more to fight climate change.
There is lots to criticize in terms of how the tax has been handled.
But the idea itself -- maybe the most important single idea to come out of the legislature in years -- is valid. And in the two hours of debate so far, the New Democrats have come up short. They copped out. They're opposing it for unsound reasons.
And most important, they have absolutely nothing in the way of a coherent alternative.
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/sports/story.html?id=f790e239-7b9e-4fc0-8ec9-824cd6a148f2&p=1
G West
4 years ago
Have you actually read Bill 37?
I know it's a little longer than your usual reading material; But...unless you understand how the Wurlitzer works and who is already exempt (and that includes airlines and cruise ships) as well as Carole's pandering to herself (See Part 2, Sec 5 (3)) and the essential characteristics of revenue 'neutrality' then you really haven't got a lot to say.
As, apparently, is the case with Les Leyne.
I don't know if the NDP critic has read the bill or not - but there is NOTHING in Bill 37 that addresses the essential point here, which is, people are willing to support and pay for substantive measures to address climate change...the fact that this particular piece of legislation does nothing more than burn rubber and create a lot of smoke isn't going to impress them very much.
Please, instead of criticizing others, you might want to try and educate yourself.
There is no point in proposing coherent alternatives to this mess - it simply needs to be jettisoned - why do you think de Jong doesn't want it debated in the House?
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Ohhh Geee West....
lol... then what's his purpose and what's he doin' in Victoria legislature?
Again out of tune with British Columbians...
Environics Poll:
"Do you support or oppose the new carbon tax for BC?"
Support: 55%
Oppose: 42%
“But new taxes of any kind are rarely welcomed by Canadians, so the fact that even a majority of B.C. residents are prepared to support this carbon tax provides a telling indication that the public -- in this province at least -- recognizes that tackling climate change requires concrete measures that go beyond setting targets and promoting voluntary efforts.”
http://erg.environics.net/media_room/default.asp?aID=668
Frank
4 years ago
Carbon tax
Anyone who thinks Taylor's carbon tax is going to save the world for the BC Liberals to rule in perpetuity are deluded.
My prediction is that no one now paying $1.32 a litre will stop driving because they're paying a few cents more per litre due to the tax. In fact, as a province our consumption of gasoline will go up even AFTER the tax is implemented.
Therefore to claim, as Les Leyne does, that this tax is a good thing for the environment shows that he just doesn't get the seriousness of our environmental problems.
G West
4 years ago
Luke Skywalker
I've just flagged another of your posts as offensive - please read commenting rules of conduct.
The name is G West.
And you still haven't, apparently, read Bill 37.
I have.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Another Carbon Tax Poll Just Released...
When told that the government of British Columbia had recently introduced "a carbon tax on fossil fuels to reduce greenhouse gas emissions," 72 per cent of those surveyed in the poll said that this was a positive step versus 23 per cent who thought that it was a negative step.
The poll surveyed 1,009 Canadian adults across the country between April 29 and May 9, 2008 and is considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=c28d5cd4-5404-4ade-a748-0352268d392c
ME2
4 years ago
Tax me for my carbon sinning - Please?
Canadians are suckers for the guilt trip.
UnCivilizedEngineer
4 years ago
Gas Tax for the Environment
Reinvestment in infrastructure can be an example of how gas tax can be used for environmental improvement. The City of Victoria has received a $3 million grant for rehabilitating old sewers, conveniently enough right around the Leg., but the sewers there are over 80 years old and failing. When sewers age they can a) collapse and overflow to basements or the surface, and b) leak more and become overwhelmed (inflow & infiltration), resulting in spills to receiving waters. This project is intended to measure the effectiveness of trenchless construction technology in reducing I&I, in preparation for more widespread usage.
See http://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/ip-pi/gas-essence_tax/news-nouvelles/2008/20080404victoria_e.shtml
And if gas prices are getting to you, stop bitching about the government and make your own changes. It is bike to work week after all...I estimate that I save about $500-700/mo. by not owning a car. Bring on the carbon tax!
G West
4 years ago
Ignorance is bliss
The lack of knowledge of the average Canadian about what is actually in this totally phony legislative money-go-round will shortly start to percolate through the electorate.
Canadians are concerned and ready to make costly sacrifices for positive change - sadly, those who tell them that Bill 37 has anything to do with it are likely to be the same group of quislings forming a group of golden golfers joining the ceo premier for his little party a week of so from now in Maple Ridge
You can read about the guest list here:
http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/003104.html#more
Nice bunch of friends the 'dear leader' has. Think of how many homeless people could be permanently housed for the bag of gold this shindig will deliver to the boss hog.
Anyone who is fooled by this premier and this piece of legislation is naive in the extreme.
By the way, the idea that anyone could properly examine and debate a piece of legislation that is more than 50 pages in length and full of consequential amendments to other legislation clearly doesn't know a thing about the process - whether it's house leader de Jong or Les Leyne - the suggestion is absurd.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
realisticman
4 years ago
Clarification
Under my above post titled "Suzuki" I should have clarified the BC Liberals, I meant to say the BC Federal Liberals. Perhaps I forgot that there is also a provincial wing.
More people are chipping in now on the-Stephane-in-green;
May. 25 2008 9:49 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
NDP Leader Jack Layton's opposition to a carbon tax shows he's more interested in hurting the Liberals than helping the environment, says Green Party Leader Elizabeth May.
"We need to act on the climate crisis, and a carbon tax is a litmus test of whether a party is serious about it or not,"...
Layton has taken some blows from environmentalists for his party's stance, including David Suzuki, perhaps the most prominent environmentalist in Canada.
"I'm really shocked with the NDP with this. I thought that they had a very progressive environmental outlook," Suzuki told Question Period on May 18. ...
The solution promoted by Layton involves "cap and trade" -- putting a strict limit on greenhouse gas emissions by what he called the "big polluters." Those polluters would pay if they exceed, and the revenues would be directed by the government to climate-friendly initiatives, he said.
"Things like helping weatherize homes right across the country, creating thousands and thousands of jobs for Canadians and reducing their bills and greenhouse gas emissions," he said.
Thousands of jobs, Jack. It 'aint no big deal.
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/h2weatherize
To paraphrase Bob Dylan, 'You don't need a weatherize man to know which way the wind blows'.
I don't know Jack. I like fresh air and I hate being in an airless cooped up space breathing stale air. I like gaps where fresh air can seep in, even in winter.
I'd say Jack has to do some back-peddaling, and quick, if he wants to retain any of the enviro-vote. Otherwise he's just going to look like a balding, white haired old guy living in the past. Maybe that's right and he is.
G West
4 years ago
Realisticman
Have YOU read Bill 37? I didn’t think so.
I suggest you do so before you write anything else about the 'positive' effects it is going to bring to the 'market'.
I think you'll find that cap and trade systems are working in many other jurisdictions which are both more successful economically (and more equitable) and more honest about living up to their Kyoto commitments than we are: Check it out, please.
You appear to be backsliding into ad hominem attacks and that post just above is almost devoid of any real substance.
By the way, what do you expect you'll have to pay for your next foreign airline junket - if there are any airlines left in business?
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Glad to hear you'll be joining us anti-carbon tax people and voting NDP next election.
realisticman
4 years ago
Frank
What will be your the campaign slogan?
"Keep Taxes Low - Vote NDP"
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
"Keep Taxes Low - Vote NDP"
Hey, sure. Welcome aboard.
City Person
4 years ago
Tax Everybody but me
Dion has an excellent idea and platform with his carbon tax. The only amendment I would add is an offset depending on the CO2 emissions of your vehicle. For example, if your car emits less than 150g/km, you would receive an annual rebate of $500. Or if your car emits 300g/km then charge $500 per year. Add to this all transit passes are 100% tax deductions, coming directly off your tax payable.
But you see, being Green is all about convenience. If it affects me directly and means I cannot afford to drive my Ford F-350 V-10 to the Quickie Mart, then the Carbon Tax is a bad idea.
G West
4 years ago
City Person
For once, City Person, you've almost got it.
Couple of little omissions though - unless the system is combined with some form of alternative program (I believe conversion credits to convert work vehicles to propane or natural gas should be part of the mix), an intensive move to switch from diesel tractor-trailers back to railway shipping, an immediate rebuilding of abandoned railway spur lines across the prairies and a quick conversion from diesel electric trains to full electric motive power in high-use urban areas it won't be enough. Taxes on air travel should be increased by at least 20% annually with the revenue so produced pumped back into railway revitalization and upgrades – especially in high-traffic corridors where rail can easily replace air travel.
The fact that airlines and cruise ships get a pass on the Bill 37 tax is insane.
Furthermore, the idea of collecting a tax and simply re-cycling it to taxpayers (either corporate, business or individual) as Bill 37 does is absurd.
The money should be collected (if it's going to be collected) and specifically earmarked for the kinds of efforts needed to actually reduce the production of green house gases - including real and practical transit options - conservation and the immediate halt of all road building and automobile-centred construction.
Canadians are willing to make some sacrifices - but they must see that government is actually doing something positive with their tax dollars and not just spinning them around in a vast bureaucratic Wurlitzer.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
City Person
4 years ago
Converstion
G West,
Modern engine management systems do not adapt will to LPG conversions. The cost is not recoverable in a reasonable amount of time. More likely is that specialised diesel vehicles that already exist in other parts of the world will make in into our markets
Most bulk cargo in Canada is sent via train already. Truck sends it to retailers. It is not feasible to build a train track to every business. Rail is not feasible in most of Canada with the exception of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor. Generally, rail is not efficient if the trip is more than four hours because infrastructure cost are too high.
Legislation can move people into the desired direction but government cannot simply legislate the way people live or the way business operates.
I applaud any government that has the guts to step into the carbon tax minefield. It is the way to go
G West
4 years ago
I disagree - conversions for gas vehicles are available
Modern engine management is the LEAST of the problem. I've done some research on the issue and it isn't that big a road block. Technically adapting to high ratio ethanol is a much bigger problem – especially in colder climates. Considering the amount of tweaking which will be necessary if the ridiculous ethanol option ever gets past about 20% of the mix.
In any case, the object is to permit people who have to use vehicles for their work to do so economically. It clearly ain't working in Europe as the demonstrations in London today have illustrated - and their shipping distances are considerably less attenuated.
As for your point about bulk purchases moving by rail...I disagree. As will anyone who drives the TransCanada or the Yellowhead with any regularity. On anyone who's familiar with shipping into the Golden Triangle from the US. Any commodity that can be containerized should be shipped by train - including most mass market consumer goods.
When it was necessary to build the nation the rails got laid. There's no problem with doing it again and the infrastructure costs would do a great deal to stimulate construction and manufacturing all across the country.
I also disagree with the 4 hour trip limitation. Nearly everyone who flies to Calgary (for example) for business stays at least one night, often two, in a hotel anyway. Completely wasteful and unnecessary travel is the real problem.
With a little planning a decent rail passenger service could easily replace the polluting airplanes used for business travel.
Worst case, the need for business travel could easily be re-evaluated. In truth, it is almost never necessary.
Don't worry though, Dion won't do anything profound or drastic ... he's a 'liberal' remember!
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
City Person
4 years ago
Perhaps
Converting a modern gasoline engine to run on LPG is now over $5000. Even at a 50 cent per litre saving it is a long payback. Before road tax was added to LPG in 1995 the payback was reasonable. Now it is not.
Rail is not a viable passenger mover in a country as sparsely populated as Canada. A rail trip to Calgary from Vancouver is going to take at least 10 hours non-stop and more likely closer to 14. A comparable flight, including check in, is less than four hours. Do some research and one will find that the vast majority of train trips are less than 400km and that includes TGV and Shinkansen. Over this distance the time saved by no check ins and downtown terminals is lost. A trip to Ottawa is going to take at least 30 hours. Most people do not have the time. Since we are free to move around it cannot be legislated, either.
In fact most consumer goods are containerized and shipped by rail. The containers arrive at Vancouver port already loaded with the goods for a particular city. Sure, you will see trucks on the highway but they are in fact small number compared to the quantities shipped by rail. Further, it does not make economic sense to run a spur line to every small town in Canada. This is why trucks are on the road.
The contents are then locally distributed by truck, locally. A fully loaded truck actually has a pretty good ratio for CO2 emitted per tonne delivered. It is actually much more efficient than 1000 people driving 500 cars to the farmer's market to "shop locally."
The problem with transportation and environmental issues is that one size does not fit all. There have to be a combination of changes. People have to live in smaller homes. Taxes on homes should be adjusted for the number of occupants. Transit passes should be 100% tax credits. There should be CO2 charges on everything that emits CO2. Transit has to be truly more convenient than driving. Soft energy sources need to be further developed. The best bang for the buck in Canada is focusing on personal automobiles and home energy costs.
Finally, you are never going to stop pleasure travel. People do it naturally. It is the either the largest or second largest business in BC, depending on whom you ask.