The System IS Broken...

In my town, whilst we have on the one hand begun to develop a major project to provide a major ski hill investment to US, German and Alberta interests, with the town's petite bourgeois hoping to use the situation to slingshot themselves to Big Bourgeoise status, from the merchant mayor on up, we have all begun to take notice as well of the rising cost of housing and homelessness.

Could it be that the two are related phenomena or mere coincidence?

Of goddamn course they are related phenomenon. It is what capitalism and class society are all about, for Satan's sake. The existence of classes and different class interests is in the end about one class getting more at the expense of the share, however thinly disguised and ignored, in housing, food and the good life that would otherwise go to the other; the poor and homeless. No fugging surprise here should there be.

Peter gets it right above, of course. (Which may be part of the reason why Tyee, The Tame One doesn't accept his articles here.) This country, economy, and our political governance systems are in need of a major restructuring, to squeeze and root out the inherent inequalities built into it.

We have a class, governance, race, but especially economic power situation in place in this country, and a so-called "democratic system", that tends in its result to exclude, displace from the public policy trough, all but the most powerful, well heeled and connected.

Stop the bullshite.

There is no real mystery why we have poverty, with its attendant prostitution, self-medication and homelessness in this country. It is rooted in the class, privilege, economic and political governance systems of this country.

And begin we to actually deal with this underpinning reality, grown up especially over the nazi-conservative, fealty to the US Empire period of recent years, we may actually in the process begin to get our own country and institutions back as well, wresting them from their "foreign-US" influence occupiers.

There is no mystery to what is going on here-, only a refusal to face up to and deal with it. When more goes to one class level of society, making them obscenely wealthy, it can only be at the expense of another, lower down in the pecking order of class society.

ME2...

Violent rebellion? You've gotta be kidding... BC public opinion will turn against such illegal action quicker than one can blink an eye.

General strikes/mass demonstrations... ?That seems to harken back to the 1983/84 Operation Solidarity protests.

Only 19% of British Columbians supported OS according to a Van Sun opinion poll released at that time. Will never forget that.

Do you recall Premier Harcourt's 1993 televised provincial address?

BTW, most social democratic parties in Europe are neo-liberal in governance, no different than the federal Liberals here in Canada.

That quote....

I notice that the ‘alleged’ quotation from former Premier Harcourt has no attribution.

I know it's part of the wikipedia entry - where it's also un-attributed. I’ve actually looked into this before – when the ‘quote’ was trotted out elsewhere in similar circumstances.

Personally, and because it was obviously ripped from a longer statement, it has always seemed to me to be:
(1) of doubtful veracity; and when used
(2) largely meant - such as here - not to enlighten, but to confuse, complicate and obfuscate.

In the current context, where two reputable researchers have both clearly shown the corrosive effects of inadequate social assistance and the pressing need for some of the Campbell government's much-vaunted surplus (about $500 million of it annually in the case of this ministry) to be put to use to address the problems of the poor, the homeless and the unintended victims of dereliction of duty, the intent of its inclusion in a debate centered around events in 2008 seems particularly mischievous.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

that quote continued.....

I worked for "welfare" back in the early 90's. I certainy don't remember Harcourt saying that and I don't beleive he did.

The Minister at the time was Joy Mcphail. There was some movement of funds in '94,'95 to establish training programs for people receiving assistance especially youth.

Loose Luke 1..

While I actually agree with Luke, whether his quote is actually attributable or not, that the trend line of development of the NDP over the nazi-conservative period in capitalist development since the late 70s has be ever more compromised to the right-, however much I almost never agree with Luke otherwise :-).

Indeed, most of Luke's assumptions about peoples and the effectiveness of this or that working class action, past, present or future, peaceful or violent, is as if attitudes were fixed phenomenon for all time. The reality is, what people will or will not support at any given time and in any situation is not static and is ever subject to change and changing social, political and economic circumstances. Real life and people, and their thinking, save perhaps for the paleocons, are always in a constant state of flux-, of having been one thing with one set of attitudes in one time and set of social circumstances becoming something else. (Attitudes on women and blacks.) Like the rest of us, most often, the future is just a judgement call, the accuracy of which is tied to the accuracy of our analyses-, which not infrequently contain serious flaws/oversights.)

(Though I must agree with him that Europe, not unlike post WW2 social democratic influenced capitalism over here, is undergoing the same kind of rightward drift social, political and economic changes as here. Check out the growing poverty and banking system convulsions, unemployed youth and right wing attacks on their social services systems. Merkel in Germany has been speaking much of the need of late for changes in their social services structure, in order to remain competitive in the new global capitalist economy-, yada, familiar yada. Out of the mouths of right wingnuts does occasionally come truth, however inadvertent sometimes. :-)

The point being that as this New, actually Very Old, hearkening back to Dickensonian Industrial Revolution capitalism continues to roll out and impact on society and especially the working class and the marginalized, (The more capitalism changes, the more it remains the same.) the more it is likely, in my analysis, that working class attitudes are as well likely going to hearken back to those earlier working class attitudes of even support for revolution and militant class action, perhaps even a kind of rebirth of the labour movement.

Continued next post...

Loose Luke 2...

From previous post...

Now, at this stage in the development of nazi-capitalism of course, one does have to be honest and acknowledge that there is still a lot of conjecture in this analysis-, the same as in much of Luke's true believer veracity claims.

He, as I, will have to see yet what real life in fact brings into being, and with what consequences for society.

What is indisputable though, I think, is that this capitalist world that is in the process of becoming still, has been much the creation of this extreme right-wing conservative think and action that has been coming out of the ruling class, their "think tanks", and carried into being by their loyal political minions. For which, for all the current angst, we more radical lefties and greens may yet have reason to be grateful.

For if I am right, if... they are doing the early essential preparing of the way for the transformation of society that, in my view, needs to be. No doubt things are unfolding... :-)

"Welfare Cheats, Deadbeats and Varmints".

And to underscore the change of direction, a few weeks later he announced a crackdown on welfare fraud, referring to the perpetrators as "cheats," "deadbeats," and (never forget) "varmints"[b] [b](Vaughn Palmer, Vancouver Sun, Jan. 21, 1994

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:qzDnSyFprIIJ:ontario.indymedia.ca/twiki/bin/view/Archives/ImcOntario7388+HArcourt+%22varmints%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=27&gl=ca

And the reference again in a book review right here on the Tyee:

Respectfully

That is NOT an attribution - it's a partial reference to some words.

I think the idea that welfare fraud is not desirable is hardly earth-shattering news although, in truth, the majority of the rip-offs of government largess are not perpetrated by the poor.

I don't think Harcourt ever called welfare recipients "varmints"; I believe he was referring to welfare cheats.

If the quote were actually as you've reported it, I suggest you wouldn't be having to go to second and third hand partial reports to try and substantiate it.

However, in any case, whatever Harcourt did or didn't do pales in comparison with the undischarged responsibility of the current government which is, by it's own account, awash with money.

I think, as sometimes happens, the mention of a long-ago administration is little more than white noise in comparison with the culpability of Campbell's.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

G West

The quote was directly referenced from the column of Vaughn Palmer, Vancouver Sun, Jan. 21, 1994.

The 'net did not start taking off until circa 1997 so you won't find much in terms of archives.

Some of the government's actions later on re-inforced Harcourt's earlier words:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:etuKwPDRfYYJ:images.indymedia.org/imc/victoria/the_neolibtqwuan.txt+McPhail+welfare+cuts&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

The point is one must learn from history and I will again re-iterate that "The more things change the more things remain the same".

That said, I have no problem, with those in need, receiving increased social assistance benefits.

G. West is right!

The quote was in reference to welfare cheats not to people on welfare. Also at the time Ralph Klein was offering any welfare recipient a free bus ticket to Vancouver. The welfare rolls were skyrocketing. There was an attempt to get people off welfare and into jobs which McPhail introduced. Harcourt never referred to "welfare recipient" in those derogatory terms. There is a huge difference between a "welfare cheat" and a "welfare recipient"

Why not watch the CBC National news tonight

Combined with the report referenced above and this current piece of excellent journalism, the National's coverage of homelessness in Portland Oregon (and Victoria, B.C.) gives a much better appreciation of the situation on the ground and how other jurisdictions are handling it so much better than we are here in BC.

Luke:

You still haven't dealt with the fact that Harcourt's words haven't been quoted accurately and in context. Certainly not by Vaughn Palmer - as your own quote indicates.

BTW, a lot of people were using the internet for a long time before 1997.

In the end, it's a lot easier to get personal about what someone would do 'if they were in that situation' than actually try and empathize with someone who is.

This province needs an additional $500 million per year investment in social services and welfare. It doesn't need the Olympics.

Furthermore, since the diversionary tactic of mentioning the past keeps coming up, I'd like to know why the current surpluses aren't being spent on services for people and I think it's a fair question.

The most interesting part of Portland's approach is that they solve the housing problem first...and then other matters start to fall into place.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

G West

Some people have selective memories, while others do not as I also recall Harcourt's infamous quote. "And (never forget) varmints." Typical Palmer prose and your local library will have the archived Sun column.

Really, Harcourt's statement and Joy McPhails's reduction of $46/month in welfare rates is what one would expect from the Reform party a la Vander Zalm's "just give 'em a shovel" or even a neo-liberal party, not a left-wing party.

Yeah, Usenet, for example, since the early '80's. But check archive.org and few .coms were involved. Ergo, can't find archived records at archive.org in that time frame.

And which political party advocates your positions? Not the neo-liberal New Democrats, Greens, or Liberals.

I hope you are not suggesting

Luke, that Palmer would not be one to employ a little bit of spin to make the column a little juicier. Yes, "Some people have selective memories" but I think your reliance on a columnist not noted for a lack of bias is what your memory relies on. I say again, he was referring to "welfare cheats" that use money intended for real needy welfare recipients. You are right it is "Typical Palmer prose" but why anyone would use the Vancouver Sun as a source is beyond credulity.

I beg to disagree

The quote is incomplete, out of context and in any case completely inappropriate in the present context. It was essayed, in my view, in an attempt to distract the mind and the attention from the real problems the journalism and the study treat.

A partial reference from Palmer, Wiki and Rabble.ca does not constitute any kind of documentary proof. Discussing it further is a total waste of time in the absence of something more definitive.

One of the authors of the study which this article is nominally about, Seth Klein, has suggested that the kinds of increases in the welfare and social services budget necessary to begin to address poverty and homelessness issues would require an additional $500 million per year.

He has not quantified how much - calculated over the next ten years - that increase would save in health care, morbidity, policing, justice, penal and the effects of crime budgets. I am convinced it would be a savings to taxpayers in the end...but, even if it weren't it is the morally correct thing to do.

My politics is irrelevant - poverty and homelessness isn't: This is a human problem and other human beings ought to be addressing it. Especially at a time when the current government is spending a good portion of the required additional funds on its efforts to promote itself and preen in the media.

Did you watch Duncan McCue's piece on the National?

Your suggestion that someone has a selective memory at the same time that you cannot actually produce the quotation your post was based upon is redundant, in my view.

I always invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.

G West

Bring it on...

While we may not actually "need" them, as in being a desirable element within a "civil" society, we've got them anyway, the likes of luke and peppergirl. (I don't know how many others of you have memories that go back pre the early Restraint Budgets of the Bill Bennett, Social Credit period of the early 80s, mimicking the New/Very Old trend line in capitalist development brought into being by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, but if you were, like me, you KNOW that this kind of homelessness, wide spread poverty and street prostitution were not around throughout the post WW2 Prosperity Period of regulated, socialist influenced capitalism. This is all new again, how e're much it hearkens back to the Industrial Revolution slums of England and the later Dirty Thirties of the Great Depression, appearing with the rise of the so-called Neocons, sometimes called the Neo-Liberals to power as the political spokesmen or henchman for the new, actually old, always existing, if closeted ruling class attitude towards the working class and its poor.

And while it IS a despairing time for many, I understand that, for those of us with a longer view of history, it is also going to be, is already slowly emerging as, a time of opportunity, I think. For as this new/very old trend line in capitalism and ruling class attitudes reasserts itself and encourages the rise of a new form fascist think and influence in society with it, it begins to undermine the support base, or at least the willingness to go along with capitalism that had characterized the working-class and its marginalized elements throughtout the post WW2 Prosperity Capitalism Period.

This process continues as ruling class attitudes become ever more extreme and give rise to ever more extreme right wing politics, to the point where the damage it has done to its own economy and world position becomes ever more evident and harder to ignore for masses of people.(To say nothing of the incredible damage that has been allowed to all the natural systems of air, land and water on the planet, and for all the green corporate yada, yada spin that spews out of the corporate mainstream media, continues unabated, and likewise impossible to ignore.)

These right-wing attitude volk, like Luke and Peppergirl, joining in the never ending ruling class attempt to turn the various strata of the working class and poor against each other, are nonetheless having another kind of effect as well-, quite different from what they intend. They are helping to change how the working class has seen capitalism throughout the post WW2-, and will undoubtedly draw it back closer to its own earlier, more class conscious early history. Good times encourage individualists and individualist think. In hard times, their tends to be a casting about, looking for collective solidarity.

Keep it up. Keep it up. However unintentionally, you are being very helpful, you right-wing doofuses. :-)

doofuses

Well mr Canis if the Bennett restraint period doesn`t date ya ..the word "doofuses" certainly does:) I spell it "doofusses" though either spelling is acceptable I`m sure.
What frustrates me with our provincial neocons and fascists is how boxed in they are by their slavish devotion to their freemarket belief system. They are not worldly people in any sense and are so limited in their ability to adapt to change and yet they are in power.
The degree to which their policies are responsible for the conditions on the streets
and the upsurge of violence is another debate. The fact is they in power are helpless to do anything about it as they only see a free market solution as viable in attempting to deal with
these obvious situations.
There is a desperate need NOW for treeplanting and silviculture in the interior. There are unemployed forestry workers who could use the work. But no..the market will eventually take care of it.

There is a desperate need

There is a desperate need NOW for treeplanting and silviculture in the interior. There are unemployed forestry workers who could use the work. But no..the market will eventually take care of it. Wrote Dr. Evil.

Not a damn bit of "evil" there that I can detect at all. :-) Just good, old fashioned common sense-, it seems to me.

The free market will indeed take care of it alright. :-)

A good day to ya, brother.

Nice Try, Canis, but...

While I realize it is inconvenient for Canis Latrans' overly simplistic left/right classification system, I am NOT advocating a right wing approach, nor am I attempting to pit poor against poor. I am merely commenting on a biased report which, combined with lazy journalism (not just the Tyee, every media story I've read on this report suffers from the same lack of critical thinking), gives readers an extremely inaccurate picture of the situation.

I don't think throwing money at people is the answer to structural poverty. Providing affordable housing, drug treatment, supports for mental health issues, a livable minimum wage and free education including to the post secondary level would be a good start.

Preventing further erosion of the middle class and implementing a flat tax system so the wealthy pay a fair share would be even better. (And spare me the shtick about how the wealthy pay so much more than the poor or middle classes - too many of them are moving their assets offshore to avoid paying Canadian taxes - our tax system is broken and morally bankrupt...)

Canis, if you really want to know where I stand politically, you might try asking instead of assuming. You'd be wrong a lot less often, and your comments would sound a lot less patronizing and arrogant.

Perspectives

Canis L writes

"These right-wing attitude volk, like Luke and Peppergirl, joining in the never ending ruling class attempt to......."

Well, Canis, I'm no supporter of Luke's political philosophy, but I do respect the work he (she?) puts into his/her posts.

IMO, to date he's the best expositor of neo-Liberalism I've seen on these threads, and probably understands Lefties better than most. Again IMO, he's polishing Campbell's arguments for use in the coming election, and I think we should be taking careful note of how.

Re Peppergirl, I've no idea of her leanings, but I do think her post above re the Welfare-Drug arguments can't be said more accurately, and leaves nothing more to be said.

Mistaking one thing for another

Everybody keeps talking about money. One poster pointed out that lots of the homeless ones are addicted to painkillers. And they spend their welfare on them.

True, but so what? Lots of them are also schizophrenic, and lots of schizophrenics are also addicted. And vice versa, these are not separate conditions. Why give such people money, when what they need is pain relief, and a place to live somehow. Money is useless to them.

Why on earth is it so hard for some people to see anything but money? What has money got to do with it anyway? I've long suspected that it would be cheaper to do this right than to throw money around, especially when the money always seems to wind up in the pockets of 'contributers' who do little for it anyway.

There are all kinds of programs that work well without enriching anybody, but our government doesn't seem so interested in those. Habitat for humanity, for instance. Sally Ann urban missions aren't bad either, for transitional people.

It ain't rocket science.