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10,000 Homeless in BC
Abbotsford tops list of boomtowns plagued by poverty.
Homelessness is booming in B.C.'s suburbs. Photo courtesy of Deb Lowell/The Salvation Army.
More than 10,580 British Columbians are homeless this winter, according to a survey of estimates compiled by the New Democratic Party. And the ranks of the unsheltered are growing fastest not in the province's largest cities, but in B.C.'s booming exurbs such as Abbotsford and Whistler.
"We are sometimes fooled into thinking homelessness is a Vancouver issue," said MLA David Chudnovsky, the opposition critic who conducted the study. "But these numbers show that homelessness is a province-wide crisis."
Interviews with social workers and homeless individuals in the Fraser Valley confirm the NDP's findings.
"Smaller communities are starting to face this issue," said Deb Lowell, a spokeswoman for The Salvation Army in Abbotsford. "Homelessness now seems to be a problem right across the province, if not the country."
Ken Wiede is an Abbotsford native who lived without a home in his own hometown for two years.
"There's way more people living on the streets of Abbotsford today," Wiede said. "Way more. And it's rougher."
Shelter staff supplied estimates
B.C.'s largest cities top the list released Friday morning. The NDP found 2,300 people living without shelter in Vancouver, 1,550 in Victoria and 1,050 in Prince George.
But the second tier of homelessness is concentrated in fast-growing exurbs such as Abbotsford, which ranked fourth on the list.
The survey estimated there are 400 homeless people living in Abbotsford, and another 184 across the Upper Fraser Valley. Similarly, the survey found 200 homeless in the Tri Cities, 180 in Burnaby and 100 in Langley.
Taken together, the NDP estimates suggest that there are now more homeless Canadians scattered across the Lower Mainland than concentrated in Vancouver's notorious Downtown Eastside.
"I was particularly surprised by the large numbers of suburban homelessness," MLA Chudnovsky said. "These include some of the most affluent and fastest-growing parts of the province."
Chudnovsky said he initiated the survey after Housing Minister Rich Coleman failed to respond to his request for an official province-wide homeless count.
"If we're serious about ending homelessness, we need to know what the situation really is," Chudnovsky said. "Minister Coleman either did not know, or was not willing to share that information. So we gathered it ourselves."
Field counts were cited where available. For communities without such counts, Chudnovsky's team interviewed social workers with client lists -- people such as shelter operators and outreach staff -- and compiled the province-wide total from their local estimates.
'We don't have SROs in Abbotsford'
"In Abbotsford, we have what economists would call an ideal economy: High wages. Low unemployment. Affordable living," said Ron Van Wyc, program director for B.C.'s Mennonite Central Committee. "So for a long time, I think there was a public perception that we didn't have a homeless problem here."
That perception weakened after a 2004 field count found 226 homeless people, and cracked in 2006 after a group of local homeless people crowded into a high-profile encampment that became know as Compassion Park.
"As a community, I think we've moved through the phase of denial," Van Wyc said. "Now there is a recognition that something needs to be done."
Leading the charge across B.C.'s bible belt is The Salvation Army. In Abbotsford, the Army's Centre of Hope houses a 150-meal-a-day soup kitchen, a 20-bed shelter, a 14-bed transitional housing facility and a provincially-funded outreach program.
Outreach worker Randy Clayton said he could house more than half of the almost 300 people on Abbotsford's outreach rolls -- if only he could find enough affordable apartments.
"We don't have SROs in Abbotsford," Clayton said. "There are a few rooming houses that let bedrooms for $400 or $500 a month. One-bedroom basement suites start at $700." But with the province still paying only $375 a month for housing, "There's really no affordable housing to be had."
Forest dwellers
Most of Clayton's clients live in the woods. Some pitch full camps complete with kitchens and fire pits. Others nest in local parks. One former military man dug himself a burrow ten feet underground.
Others live in their cars. In a region with poor public transit, many of the working poor choose to give up their homes before sacrificing their wheels.
"I had a beat-up old Chevy van that I lived in for three years," said Wiede. He found places that tolerated parking overnight. "They never gave me permission," he said. "But they never kicked me out."
Clayton figures there are another 100 to 150 homeless individuals who remain off the Sally Ann's rolls, bringing the Abbotsford total in line with the NDP estimate.
"This is the time of year that we find out how many more are homeless," Clayton said. "When it gets cold like this, people literally come out of the woods looking to get warm."
'Too cold in 100 Mile'
There does not appear to be any single reason why homelessness has roughly doubled throughout the Lower Mainland in the past few years.
A bit more than half of Abbotsford's homeless are locals, according to the 2004 homeless count. Many of those were pushed into the streets by the same deinstitutionalization and addiction that have driven the homeless crisis across Canada.
"I think we are seeing the consequence of social policy decisions made 15 years ago," Van Wyc said, "when there was a decision made to not continue funding social housing."
The other half of Abbotsford's burgeoning homeless appears to come from elsewhere in B.C.
Clayton Fraser is a thickly bearded young man who said he'd slept on the streets of Vancouver, beneath the power lines of Surrey, and "in the ditch" as far north as 100 Mile House. He did not beat around the bush when asked why he prefers Abbotsford, where he's spent most of the past year sleeping in a park.
"Too many games on Hastings Street. Too cold in 100 Mile," Fraser said.
'Anywhere but Vancouver'
Wiede said that many of the "new crowd" who arrived within the past year are from Vancouver.
"It's like a wave," Wiede said. "It's getting tougher in Vancouver. And now some of those tough people are moving here."
Randy Clayton's phone rang during our interview. On the other end of the line was a woman from Aldergrove seeking information about shelters. The outreach worker pulled a photocopied list off the wall, and started reading her some place names and phone numbers.
She interrupted him to explain that she was willing to go, "anywhere but Vancouver."
Few facilities in small cities
B.C.'s suburbs and small towns are less prepared to cope with fast-growing homeless populations than are cities such as Vancouver and Victoria, which host a continuum of services ranging from detox clinics to long-term supportive housing.
"There are few facilities here. The infrastructure is not as well established as in a place like Vancouver," Van Wyc said.
Similarly, the City of Abbotsford does not own any land on which to build new facilities, and is therefore unable to take advantage of funding recently offered by the province.
A new hospital is under construction, and Abbotsford housing advocates are lobbying to convert the old building into new social housing. Van Wyc is also pondering whether some sort of a mobile home park might be pressed into service in the interim.
But while the causes and conditions of homelessness vary among urban and suburban areas, the solution appears to remain the same: provide stable homes.
Blindness of 'untrained eyes'
Wiede is among Abbotsford's success stories. Unable to work after a back injury, and unable to survive on a $600-a-month pension, Wiede slipped into homelessness at the age of 60. He "wandered around this area" for two years before landing a room at Centre of Hope's transitional housing.
"The Salvation Army really helped me out in a big way," Wiede said. "They took me in when there was no place I could go."
Wiede has since found a subsidized apartment across town, and has largely re-entered mainstream society. But his two years on the streets opened his eyes to a problem he said most of his new neighbours still can't see.
"I see things my friend doesn't see," Wiede said. "We'll be drivin' along and I'll say, 'Did you see those eight people in the field over there?' And he says, 'No.'
"And you see, that's just it. With untrained eyes, you don't see it. And if you don't see it, you think the problem doesn't exist."
Related Tyee stories:
- Homeless in Suburbia
Why shelters outside of Vancouver are filling up - 2010: More Homeless than Athletes? (Series)
What it will take to provide needed shelter before the Olympics. - Vancouver's SROs: 'Zero Vacancy'
Vanishing old hotels were last refuge for most at risk.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
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- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
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- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
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- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
134
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Perry
4 years ago
In my small town on the
In my small town on the Island there are no rental units of any kind available for the welfare shelter allowance of $375. None! There is nowhere to rent. This means that welfare and disability recipients, who both get the same amount for shelter, have no choice but to dig into their support allowance if they do rent, which means less of everything including food. And even if they could find a rental unit for the shelter allowance or slightly above, the province allows the landlord to raise the rent the next year without giving the welfare recipient a similar increase. This means that for those people any place they rent is temporary as rental increases will slowly squeeze them out.
I was recently forced out of Vancouver because my rent increased each year to where I was paying 80% of my disability benefits to rent a crappy one-bedroom apartment. I thought renting would be cheaper on the Island, but it's not. It's the same everywhere. Rents as high as Vancouver (don't believe me, just check the classifieds in any small town) and absolutely nothing for $375.
I'm one of the lucky ones, though, as I have a relative willing to rent me a travel trailer. It's nearly impossible to keep warm, but it's better than the streets or parks, which is where I would otherwise be thanks to compassionless government agents and policies.
The BC Coalition of People with Disabilities have a new report out
that looks at this and other issues. They offer many solutions, the most obvious being to raise the rents. Read the report: "Who Benefits? 2007: How Disability Benefits are Failing British Columbians" at www.bccpd.bc.ca.
One simple thing the province could do immediately to alleviate the suffering of some, and with very little cost, would be to stop deducting CPP disability payments from the provincial disability amount. In my case that would mean $1400/mth instead of the current $900/mth, and it would mean I could have a decent place to live.
Bailey
4 years ago
Godless Capitalism
It is a very important point of faith among adherents of the neo-Soviet movement that calls itself Objectivism that only those who can defend themselves from predation deserve to live.
Objectivism is the core of the latest iteration of Capitalism that people are calling multi-nationalism, the corporate state, neo-conservatism and other things.
It's a type social Darwinism, which denies any values except financial ones, and strongly believes that all virtue expresses itself in the ability to get money, and keep it. According to Objectivist teachings, the 'competent' (themselves, of course), are the only important people. Others, who can be recognized by their empty pockets and complaints about having been robbed, are considered social deviants, and as such, prevented as far as possible from ever recovering their footing.
There are very strong indications that since the second war this movement has infiltrated or at least influenced every western nation and every party within the governments of those nations.
Right, left, Conservative, Liberal, Labour, or Social Democratic. All seem equally anxious to abandon every vestige of decency that appears in society.
The spread of homelessness now is a result of the "jobless recovery" in the early 80s. The dollar currencies were artificially propped up by the strategy of dropping interest rates and raising realestate prices until the market was filled with flippers supporting more debt on their properties than they could support, depending on continued price rises to keep them afloat. Followed by an interest rise to 24%, a flurry of foreclosures and bankruptcies, and the banks in possession of lots and lots of properties cheap.
It left the prices of housing inflated by a factor of at least four, ordinary people wanting homes out of luck, and a whole new class of very wealthy and very unethical speculators, with ties to the financial institutions and governments.
Sounding familiar. at all?
dr evil
4 years ago
very familiar
"The shadow of that hyddeous strength [the Tower of Babel] sax myle and more it is of length".)
fish
4 years ago
ghosts
About the presence of homeless people in communities, Ken Wiede is absolutely right when he says "With untrained eyes, you don't see it. And if you don't see it, you think the problem doesn't exist." I've noticed an increasing number of homeless people in the small town of Sechelt near where I live on the Sunshine Coast. There's a campsite that I've driven by a number of times without really paying attention but now that it's colder, I'm noticing the fire in the barrel, the shopping carts full of bags heading in that direction. And making sure I donate regularly to the Food Bank. But I wish there were more options for people who are down on their luck or otherwise disadvantaged. It could so easily be any one of us.
pender paul
4 years ago
a natural outcome of capitalism
Of course there are thousands of homeless in BC--what did you expect when you elected members of the corporate elite (or nearly so) to run the province and the country? They have no will to solve the problem--in fact, quite the opposite. The more homeless and the more under-employed the better the stick to drive down real wages, or at least slow wage increases. In August of 1939 (according to my father) there were still hordes of unemployed, folks were sleeping in parks, he frequented Beacon Hill Park in Victoria where he bagged ducks for dinner. By the end of September, 1939, wages had soared, there was little, if any, unemployment, housing was being built near the shipyards, an army camp was constructed where UVic now stands, bellies were full, etc. There was suddenly a WILL to get things done and there was money flowing in every direction, whereas in the previous month, the only thing substantial was the bread line. Fast forward to today--in one of wealthiest jurisdictions on the face of the earth we have a government that lacks the will to do anything meaningful about homelessness--no, buying a few hotels in Vancouver does not count. The sooner the province rids itself of the Liberal (Leech) Party, the better. Although, to end on a down note, the opposition, as led by Ms Prem, isn't all that much better.
G West
4 years ago
pender paul
Absolutely right. The self same narrative we hear from Ed - in his case referring to Europe in the years before the war.
The sad fact is that it may require another cathartic event like the Depression or a widespread war to wake people up.
Not many 'up' notes these days - but, as you put it...What would one expect?
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
Welcome.
Welcome to the New Capitalism. Funny though, it's looking more and more like the old 1930's, all the way back to the "Land Enclosures Act" Industrial Revolution Capitalism.
Lots of folks managed to work right through the Great Depression too-, however threadbare the pay cheque and thin the gruel.
If folks still ain't ready to "raze the foundations" for a "transformed" society,truly democratic right down to the roots of the economy society, then at least a little more whining for the post-war "regulated" capitalism. Even this latter was infinitely preferable to what is; Neoconazi Capitalism (Follow the latest Schreiber scandal for how that works and who benefits.)
Amen, brother.They have all blurred into a muddy, me too, me, me, me, kiss ass,line of least resistance lead me on middle. They all are set upon the coward's course.
Fug 'em. Time to leave every one of these wankers to their circle jerk preoccupations, and strike off in new directions, marching to a different drummer into the streets, into the board rooms and the corridors of "official" power.
A new democracy. Power to the people, right down into the board rooms of the economy. If you really want to grab life, society and the well spring of power by the hairy gonads.
Or do you still need more pain? More time on the rack of capitalism?
Ehhh, like I like to point out to these "capitalism is beautiful" wingnuts: We couldn't do it without ya. Really! :-) Keep up the good work. :-)
It ain't over until Daddy Warbucks sings "Uncle!"
Which is enough showing my age. :-) But then, ya really didn't think it was all about youth, did ya? :-D lol
tessa
4 years ago
I'd like to hear more about
I'd like to hear more about other communities. Prince George, with a population of only 70,000 people, it has just under half the homeless of Vancouver. Towns like Fort St. James also have extraordinarily high rates. That's quite a lot.
rousseau
4 years ago
are we supposed to take a
are we supposed to take a survey done by chudnovsky seriously? last time i heard his name he was out counting potholes. i'll half the number and then divide by 2. this guy was the beginning of the end re; relations between the libs and the bctf. in fact he was responsible for declaring 'war' on the libs just after they came to power. great foresight dave.
tessa
4 years ago
to rousseau
None of what you mentioned suggests information he provides is untrustworthy. So, we have an opposition member who doesn't like the Liberals (duh), and he counts potholes? So? Yet this is the information you've used to justify claiming the actual number is a quarter of what he says for the whole province when that would make it less than what independent groups have found in Vancouver alone.
DPL
4 years ago
Hey rousseau1 .Don't mess on
Hey rousseau1 .Don't mess on the guy who came up with the survey, just ask yourself why all those follks are lying on the concrete every night. Go ask the cops and ambulance folks who make sure they don't die on their shift. Go check a food bank or some churxh doorway and you will see for yourself. The fellow counting holes in the road did so on his own dime and just because he is a member of the opposition doesn't make him your enemy. THis province brags about surpluses , throw money at things they like and they don't like the poor.I wonder how many cold night beds that could be set up with the 400 MILLIONs over budget for a bloody convention center about a block from the other convention center in vancouver. Get a grip on reality.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR
The sooner the province rids itself of the Liberal (Leech) Party, the better. Although, to end on a down note, the opposition, as led by Ms Prem, isn't all that much better.
Oh brother. Remember the NDP of the 1990's?
Economic stagnation, high unemployment, people leaving for other provinces, NDP cuts welfare rates, etc.
Yup, that certainly would be a recipe to decrease the amount of homelessness!
"I think we are seeing the consequence of social policy decisions made 15 years ago," Van Wyc said, "when there was a decision made to not continue funding social housing."
And therein lies the problem.
G West
4 years ago
Yep sure is amazing what
Sure is amazing what Federal government program cutbacks and a downturn in the commodities market will do to a province...God help the poor and the homeless if such conditions (like the 90s) ever strike when Campbell is in power.
PERSONAL INSULTS DELETED. LET'S KEEP THE DEBATE AT THE LEVEL OF IDEAS AND FACTS. TYEE MODERATOR
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Do you Homework...
"Sure is amazing what Federal government program cutbacks and a downturn in the commodities market will do to a province...God help the poor and the homeless if such conditions (like the 90s) ever strike when Campbell is in power."
Well, you certainly do realize that BC's major export commodity, lumber, is facing serious problems... ie. US dollar parity (no longer US 60 cents), low commodity prices, mill closures, layoffs, yesterday's closure of the MacKenzie pulpmill and two sawmills by Abitibi, etc.
Furthermore, in today's provincial quaterly report, BC is ranked 10th amongst province's in terms its export economy.
Nice try!
sdgreen
4 years ago
Hmmm 15 years ago...
So this would sort of indicate a time when Federal Liberal Paul Martin slashed funding to provinces and the period when the Harcourt/Clark/Miller/Dosanjh NDP government ran the Province.
Clearly this amplifies the utter failure of Social Services programs, and especially the failure of successive governments to provide both rehabiltation facilities and adequate living opportunities.
This really does not have anything to do with either the socialist or capitalist approach.
I seem to remember that way back in the Socred Days, those mentally deficient were thrown out into the stark world to survive. Clearly that does not work. So basically, none of the programs to date are working too well. We are spinning our wheels on this problem.
While it is all very nice for the NDP to come up with these unscientific figures, no solutions are presented. Perhaps we should slash the Social Services budget, and just build more housing, trailer parks and facilities to deal with rehab.
G West
4 years ago
What do you mean nice try?
This, skywalker, is what you wrote:
Yup, that certainly would be a recipe to decrease the amount of homelessness!
The fact of the matter is that the economic situation now is completely different that it was in the 90s and it had little or nothing to do with the government in power.
We now have a government, which constantly crows about how great things are because of budget surpluses, increasing revenues in several areas and wonderful results for Campbell's friends.
The same government that has done little or nothing with those extra revenues EXCEPT reward its small circle of friends in the Real Estate development business. A government that refused to even acknowledge homelessness, poverty and child welfare are in crisis in many communities and that has refused to increase the minimum wage while practically doubling the salaries of most MLAs.
God help us, as I said, what would happen to the poor, the handicapped, the poorly paid and the children - not to mention health care and education IF this bunch of kleptocrats and sell-outs had been in power in the 90s.
THE COMMENTER'S AGE IS IRRELEVANT. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HECTORING OTHER COMMENTERS.
-- TYEE MODERATOR
As for your claim sdgreen - I wish you would join me at the soup kitchen where I've been volunteering since the 1980s - we keep a close track of our 'guests' and their numbers have increased month to month for every single month since I began to volunteer there.
I'm sure, if you take the effort, you can find some people in your own community who'll pass on something similar of a very concrete and SCIENTIFIC nature.
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULT. -- TYEE EDITOR
Fiat lux
4 years ago
Wealth can not be created,
Wealth can not be created, only taken from other sectors, the environment, and the future.
Homelessness is the result of wealth taking, with stockmarkets and executives stealing multi million dollar salaries and benefits from the public's pockets.
The textbook definition of economics is : "The management and distribution of scarce resources."
This has been distorted by the neoclassical theory and neocon ideology into : "The legalization of theft, extortion and the colonization of the world with the perceived power of imaginary capital."
Welcome to the 21st century.
Ed Deak.
switek
4 years ago
We need more family supports.
Saskatchewan is the one province with the most plentiful supply of affordable housing in Canada, yet in spite of the availability of affordable housing a University of Regina study completed last year concluded that 1 in 5 Saskatchewan residents lives in poverty. One of the groups they found most vulnerable were single mothers. Given the huge increase in divorce rates around the country it would be naïve to ignore this trend as one of the reasons why poverty and homelessness is on the rise throughout Canada.
Unfortunately it seems as a society we would often rather use the homeless and those in extreme poverty as a political football. There is not a Province in Canada regardless of government that does not have this problem to deal with.
I think we need to allocate more resources to couples and family counseling to try and keep families working together and helping and supporting each other more. It is interesting that the new BC Rental assistance program will help those families that stay together but the moment they split up as individuals and end up on welfare they are no longer eligible for the rental assistance program finding. Something seems wrong with that.
KWD
4 years ago
simple reason
"There does not appear to be any single reason why homelessness has roughly doubled throughout the Lower Mainland in the past few years."
There may not be a single reason but there is a simple one: It’s called the Natural Survival Response. Simply put, it means folks “work” at seeking pleasure and avoiding pain: It’s a universal human condition.
However, if you think the fact that there are now 10,000 homeless (and presumably in pain) in BC contradicts the NSR, think again.
It goes without saying that politicians avoid the truth. They know full well that they will never be elected if they even hint at the truth. Political platforms based Robin Hood ideologies are doomed.
To avoid being faced with personal suffering, the elite, the upper class and the politically powerful ensure that the focus of the citizenry is to continue arguing amongst themselves about the merits of various political, economic and religious strategies.
The poor and homeless are where they are because those that control the means of changing the situation (and telling the truth) aren’t willing to suffer: And they call the shots.
Folks that try to change this imbalance of power (and therefore changing social, political and economic behaviours) are faced with the fact that, more and more, legislation favours the elite, the upper class, the politically powerful.
Unfortunately, it seems that delving into the reasons behind human behaviour and the reasons why folks think and behave the way they do, in order to tackle current global dilemmas, like homelessness, is a nonstarter. The reason it’s a nonstarter is the same one that makes looking at the fact that we are governed by the laws of thermodynamics a lost cause … nobody wants to hear the truth, and nobody wants give up pleasure for pain.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
"The fact of the matter is
"The fact of the matter is that the economic situation now is completely different that it was in the 90s and it had little or nothing to do with the government in power."
Yes, the economic situation today is completely different from the '90's but not for the reasons that you suggest... consumer confidence was at all time lows, for one thing, affecting the domestic economy as a result of NDP government policies and direction. Even many New Democrats privately admitted same post 2001, which can be confirmed on the 'net. Do your homework.
Are you sure we are from the same province?
"God help us, as I said, what would happen to the poor, the handicapped, the poorly paid and the children - not to mention health care and education IF this bunch of kleptocrats and sell-outs had been in power in the 90s.
Yup, for example, the child poverty rate in 1991 was 14.4% during the last year of the Socred adminiatration and shot up to 19.3% during the first year of the NDP administration. Go figure!
G West
4 years ago
No - You do your homework
Go back and actually look at how the administration in the 90s coped with a far more difficult problem (which was not of their making - any more than the big increases in the export commodities economy are the result of anything Campbell has done).
What Campbell did was to create a huge deficit by tax expenditures on his friends insead of on the poor and the social infrastructure.
Are you sure you actually understand how the economy works. There is no such thing as trickle down and Campbell simply proves what was already evident from the US neo-con example: we just catch on more slowly than our American friends.
At a time when rewards for the top 10% - 12% of income earners in the province have increased multiple times the simple fact that the middle class and the poor (working or not) have fallen back and are worse off now than they were ten years ago is a situation that ought to attract civil if not criminal penalties against those who support and pander for Campbell and his friends. These guys all belong in jail – if not for larceny, certainly for perjury.
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Sorry, but those could only
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR
And sheesh, the public opinion polls, such as Mustel, certainly do not reflect same.
G West
4 years ago
I agree
Wonderful description of yourself Luke - which part of the Empire are you visiting today?
Why don't you take a look at the figures my friend - you'll be very surprised?
I'd post them but I've done it so many times before it simply isn't worth the effort.
Government by opinion polls - as KWD demonstrates - is about all this bunch of kleptocrats 'can' do.
So I'll just quote what he says and leave you to explore the universe as you see it:
Fact and truth have nothing to do with it and you've wasted enough of my time.
David Beers
4 years ago
stop the name calling please
GWest, Luke Skywalker,
Please refrain from calling each other children, or irrational nonsensical ideologues, etc. Make your points based on facts and leave the personal stuff out, please. That's requested in the guidelines you agreed to as a Tyee commenter.
Thanks
G West
4 years ago
Well David
THis:
Another Dumb ande Dumber Comment...
Is what started it. I'm more than willing to deal with nothing but facts and opinions - but when people like Luke Skywalker are allowed to get away with that kind of a personal reference to me - I'm going to bite back.
I notice that comment is still standing.
WHY?
rousseau
4 years ago
obviously the libs aren't
obviously the libs aren't perfect, and it's about time they quit using the 90's as the ultimate weapon everytime their backs are to the wall, but it amazes me to hear people on this site actually defend the actions of the ndp gov't during that decade. it will ultimately be known as the worst period of governance the province has ever seen. i still feel foolish about voting for them in '91, and i doubt if i ever will again. it's best for all that they sit in opposition and count potholes and homeless people, b/c i doubt very much they'd be able to solve any of our problems anyway. as for chudnovsky's '10,000', walk down denman or davie and estimate how many of the 20somethings that are asking you for your hard-earned money look capable of working in a city where employers are practically begging for workers. once you do that you'll see that the number is a joke.
G West
4 years ago
I guess you don't remember this rousseau?
Each individual British Columbian -- and there are more than 4.1 million of us -- now is on the hook for $9,003 borrowed by Victoria and various Crown corporations and agencies.
This is up 8.2 per cent from the $8,321 owed in 2001 when Campbell's Liberals defeated the former New Democratic Party government.
These figures, and many more, were made public at the end of June when the public accounts for fiscal year 2003-04 were released in Victoria.
But the debt figures received little or no notice from the news media, the punditocracy or opposition politicians
.
Not that I'm interested in defending NDP shortcomings - I just prefer paying more than passing allegiance to the truth.
quote thanks to Will McMartin...and the BC Public Accounts.
realisticman
4 years ago
I'm Heading Out
To count the Help Wanted signs. I know; it might take me until springtime to count them all. Guess how many there are?
rousseau
4 years ago
phone chudnovsky. he
phone chudnovsky. he doesn't seem to do much else.
gkam
4 years ago
Where are they?
Where are the apologists for rampant, predatory capitalism? What happened to the right-wngers who usually spout their theories of how competition is better than cooperation, of how it's inspired by God, or whatever rationalization they use for their selfishness?
I expected a note from IAMC and Capitalism trumpeting the moral superiority of making money over taking care of those less fortunate. (They probably deserve it, anyway, huh?)
The fact is that we are in another period like the mid-to-late 1930's, with the power of corporations (or industrial wealth family-style), coordinating with a hateful conservative administration and powerful military to attack weak countries and weak people, for their own personal power and wealth.
It's the Dark Ages, folks, with fear and hate and police states.
dr evil
4 years ago
Ever been down
Ever been down and out ..rman..rousseau?
on the street..with nuthin` and nowhere to go?
answer a help wanted and get shooed out..ya can get pretty smelly sleepin` under a bridge.
gkam
4 years ago
name-calling
I have to apologize to David Beers for my negative characterizations.
But I'd also like to let him know there is a reason for it: You don't take a knife to a gunfight.
When I returned from my little sojurn to Southeast Asia in late 1968, I agonized over conflicting attitudes and suppressed realizations.
Having volunteered for that war, I was responsible for my being there, and was a minor, but very effective part of the Killing Machine. But I had realized that we were the Bad Guys, and began, slowly at first, to actively oppose our killling, first overseas, then later, back home.
I was branded as a Commie, as someone who hated his country, as a person who actually wanted to hurt the US.
All of this at home was from draft-dodgers who made lots of money from selling war materiel, but who couldn't be bothered to actually put their asses where their mouths (and wallets) were.
Forty years later, and hundreds of nights of flying out of bed with PTSD, I no longer take that abuse from others without replying in kind.
Apparently, I sometimes don't wait until the first offense. Sorry.
But just wait until we get back the hundred thousand servicemen with lifelong damage, physically, mentally, morally. There will be too many of folk like me to count.
dr evil
4 years ago
for what its worth
I really liked your post gkam...lots of real feeling.
righteous brother righteous
rousseau
4 years ago
evil one; being down and
evil one; being down and out is tragic, but choosing to be down and out is pathetic.
gkam
4 years ago
down and out?
It's not a choice, it's mental illness or predatory capitalism that puts people out on the street.
Growing up, we had NO homeless folk, save those few riding the rails. With the advent of Reaganism (Fascism with a friendly face), we had thousands of mentally ill on the streets of California. Later, when he was president, we had entire families all over the country living under overpasses.
It's not pathetic, it is criminal. We are a better people than that.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Having seen some figures
Having seen some figures posted elsewhere and confirming same online with the federal ministry of finance, some basic figures regarding provincial financial health are posted below.
These figures, by provincial ranking, include relative debt/GDP ratios as well as three-year cumulative budget surpluses from fiscal year 2006 back.
1. Alberta - 0% - $22 billion
2. BC - 14.6% - $10 billion
3. Saskatchewan - 16% - $1.1 billion
4. Ontario - 19.2% - $1 billion
Regarding the alleged homeless figure of 10,000, we all know what the problem is but I have still not read what a possible *interim* solution could be.
Perhaps I will chime in. Currently the school population in BC is declining resulting in the closure of many schools.
Some of these facilities could provide interim shelter, heat, bathroom/shower facilities, provision of food services, etc. if there is a will by both local and provincial government.
Sounds like a reasonable step to me but have never heard anyone pursuing the same.
realisticman
4 years ago
take a pill, doc
matter of fact I have been down and out doc. didn't like it, got cold. decided to do whatever it took. washed dishes in my underwear for a while, sold newspapers on the street, bussed tables, did labour, dug gardens, cleaned houses, painted houses. Whatever it took, doc. It's a choice in our society. A choice, except for those that are truly unstable and I do think they should be institutionalized and I'm happy to pay for that but I can introduce you to many who just hang out.
realisticman
4 years ago
Back to School
I thought of that too. Maybe Chudnovsky knows some of his old teaching comrades who could also teach a few things?
dr evil
4 years ago
choosing
The kids adventurin` around ..on the bum.. hobo`in, lookin` around their country..probably got homes to go to and will in a little time all the better for it. I usually flips `em a `toon and says go for it.
Big difference though with the victims and folks with disabilities as gkam points out.
At public housing meetings here where I am..we`ve heard testimony from those whose lives were hugely impacted positively by having a small clean, safe space to live...to keep clean..just a little space to themselves.
Myself I was never able to pull myself up by my own bootstraps..it was always a helping hand somewhere and often in the most unimaginable ways..
dr evil
4 years ago
too tough
So where you hangin` rman? Various institutions across the country? You the judge ..whos hangin` out and whose needing to be institutionalized? Whats with the hate on for Chudnovsky? What`d he ever do to you?
Sounds a little obsessive.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
figures
It figures that people who cheerlead for the governments of Alberta and BC talk about figues more related to cash in the hands of the already rich than about the needs of the people living in the streets.
In 2006, the city of Calgary had 3,436 homeless people at a time when that province's raping of the land and polluting of the waters for the tar sands has filled the coffers to overflowing. I can't imagine how many more people the mean-spirited Klien government would have left in the streets if it hadn't had all of that one-time-only cash from the sale of oil.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2006/07/19/homeless-calgary.html
dr evil
4 years ago
Caring
I never cease to be amazed by the rmen and the rouseeaus...such anger..and yet they`ve got everything. Their onside with all the power. They have a Government that is in line with their thinking both provincially and nationally...our heroes now are CEOs and sports stars..business rules everything..everything commodified..and yet this anger and bitterness.
I remember one night coming out of a film on Granville many years ago..as the crowd exited we were directly facing an alleyway off one of the side streets..a young white guy was seriously stomping on the head of an older native guy who was on the ground. The crowd headed straight for the alley and the young guy took off running very fast.
The native guy was a mess..some of the women covered him with their shawls..a mostly middle class crowd...we kind of encircled him.. the concern was
palpable..two ambulances appeared...fast..the attendants handled the victim with genuine concern and gentleness
..and bundled him off..I hope he survived.
Recently in Vancouver (I don`t go there often) I turned the corner on one street ..there was a man lying motionless face down in a doorway and his feet protruded part ways into the sidewalk. I stopped to check him out..is he breathing? Everyone was just stepping over him and going about their business..like he wasn`t there..
Somewhere in this lifetime I somehow got the notion that what was most important here..in this brief time we have here was... caring...if there were to be judgement..it will be on how we treated our brother and sister human beings.
G West
4 years ago
Skywalker
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULT -- TYEE MODERATOR
If you really want, and care, to find out what's actually going on with the poor and the working poor of this province instead of referring to a $2.8 bn surplus (or whatever Carole Taylor is crowing about for fiscal 2006/07) then here's a good place to start.
Download some of these reports and look at the figures yourself:
http://www.sparc.bc.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=70&browseby=cat&Itemid=110
G West
4 years ago
Or if the list is a little intimidating
Why not start with this report:
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/documents/BC_Office_Pubs/bc_2006/BTN_welfare_cuts.pdf
Let me know when you're done - I'll provide enough cautionary tales to fill your weekend.
G West
4 years ago
And this, my dear R/man, is for you
A stunning testament to the role of government and subsidies in responding to poverty and hunger in a certain African country.
And a grest big finger in the eye of the US and the UN:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/world/africa/02malawi.html?_r=2&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin
Give people the tools and they'll find a way to meet their own needs.
realisticman
4 years ago
Thanks for that West
and thanks too for confirming that my nephew was not, as you said, well I can't remember now but you know - an elitist wasting his time or something, there. I agree, thanks to the USA & Britain for their help.
Fertilizer! So simple. Shi. happens! As that disgusting riff goes.
G West
4 years ago
Thank you for the apology
Of course, it's unnecessary because I never said your nephew was anything of the sort.
The point (expressed as fertilizer) is that the market doesn't work and subsidies and government involvement do...or didn't you actually read the piece? The Malawians and their leaders made it work by ignoring the mechanisms and the advice of both the US and the UN.
In any case, I appreciate the apology - I think I'll frame it for future use.
realisticman
4 years ago
2nd Opinion
Dr Evil
Hey Doc, don't take it personal but I'd like to get a second opinion. I'm 'aint angry and I 'aint got everything. My heros are the great artists and inventers. Sports starts mean nothing to me either. I only watch F1. Business keeps us all going and as for 'anger'; hey, 'life', I love it and 'bitterness', no - life is sweet. Try it Doc.
dr evil
4 years ago
disappointment
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR
RickW
4 years ago
An economy on building houses and flipping burgers?
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=f65b9c29-b6cb-4d01-ba2c-f92a3c1fe2a0
B.C.'s economy shows signs of weakening, but the province still expects to post a $2-billion surplus next spring, Finance Minister Carole Taylor said yesterday.
Good to know there is a "surplus" though.....
rousseau
4 years ago
of course the mentally ill
of course the mentally ill should not be on the streets. guess who put an end to the institutionalization of the mentally ill in the 1990's in b.c.? shouldn't be too hard to figure that one out eh evil one? same bunch of incompetents that couldn't manage a popcorn stand. as for the 20something dharma bums that are constantly asking others for their hard-earned dollars, i say to hell with them. get a job and pull your own weight you bunch of bums.
BLONDE PITBULL
4 years ago
rousseau...
That was the socreds the predessors of the BCliars party. However the NDP did little to improve the mentally ills lot in life because they had to deal with the Paul Martin budget cuts. And soo many of you kind folk out there lead by a manipulative press screamed and howled over ever penny they spent maintaining the remaining system. Some one else has already mentioned these facts to you. Please try to keep up.
gkam
4 years ago
same old hate
I ask "rousseau" (he's certainly not Jean Jacques): Do you really think that you can spend a few nights on the street and then go get a job? No clean clothes, no shave, no shower. If you are out there, you may be stuck for some time.
But it's so much easier to blame the victims, especially when there are token lazies around from which to generalize.
G West
4 years ago
rousseau
Perhaps you'd like to address this document from the University of Toronto.
There is information out there which will enable you to rise above the attitudes you're displaying currently.
Take some time, read the study - have a look at the disconnect between what Gordon Campbell says and what he actually does. Try and realize that the kind of thing you just posted really makes you look profoundly foolish.
http://www.urbancentre.utoronto.ca/pdfs/researchassociates/4_vol_report/Vol2.pdf
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Reality Check...
"If funded, the 12-building project will represent the largest single investment in social housing in British Columbia's history"
http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/11/09/12Towers/
"That's such a change of direction for the B.C. Liberal government that hardly anyone outside the busy city planning department and B.C. Housing can believe it."
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=9cc93dce-d194-473c-9f90-c192f2f8a239&k=77519
dr evil
4 years ago
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULT
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS, WHICH AREN'T WELCOME ON TYEE THREADS. -- TYEE MODERATOR
G West
4 years ago
I've heard it all before skywalker
This story is over a year old...
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=5a701c9a-36ab-4a7e-82a9-6a874625b018
NOT A SINGLE THING HAS CHANGED....except the convicted criminal who 'leads' this province has voted himself a better than 50% raise in salary and twice turned down an opportunity to raise the minimum wage.
How many times do you have to have it demonstrated to you that this man cares about NOTHING but himself and his friends?
He's even losing Carole Taylor...the one decent person in his cabinet....
You're clutching at straws my friend, defending someone who isn't worth the candle, sorry, but that's the truth and the facts show it.
Are you ready for more reading material to further your education?
rousseau
4 years ago
touchy little subject i see.
touchy little subject i see. i guess the truth must hurt.
rousseau
4 years ago
by the way, do the posters
by the way, do the posters on this site always resort to personal insults when they disagree with another poster, or are dr. evil and gwest anomolies?
G West
4 years ago
What 'personal' insult are you
What personal insult are you talking about?
You should study up on that too.
All I did was suggest you hadn't looked at the facts, remember?
rousseau
4 years ago
'There is information out
'There is information out there which will enable you to rise above the attitudes you're displaying currently.
Try and realize that the kind of thing you just posted really makes you look profoundly foolish.
I don`t think it entirely fair calling "rousseau" foolish...I suspect he really is quite stupid and can`t help it.'
rousseau
4 years ago
'There is information out
'There is information out there which will enable you to rise above the attitudes you're displaying currently.
Try and realize that the kind of thing you just posted really makes you look profoundly foolish.
I don`t think it entirely fair calling "rousseau" foolish...I suspect he really is quite stupid and can`t help it.'
G West
4 years ago
If you don't think that what you've posted here is foolish
I'm simply trying to help you recognize the error of your ways.
Nothing whatever personal about attacking your ideas and pointing out you are misinformed my friend. Furthermore, you need to read and copy a lot more carefully - I never called you stupid - I speak only for myself - others speak for themselves.
Now would you care to have me go back and point out several of the things you HAVE said?
Let's carefully parse the 'personal' and ad hominem remarks from, for example, this statement under your label:
Not only is that statement inaccurate, it's rude and marginally profane.
Would you care to continue?
I’ve posted links to a variety of studies that consider the implications and shortcomings of the Campbell administration’s approach to child poverty, homelessness and several other areas of social justice. I’ve provided the material so you’ll understand that I’m not just being argumentative and to demonstrate that I have done my homework.
If you’d like to debate the contents of those studies and show me how the statistics quoted therein are incorrect – then have at it.
mamid
4 years ago
Homeless - the ones not counted
What about all those couch surfing at friend's places? Or who are in transition houses? There are many more homeless than just those on the streets.
The greatest irony in Chilliwack, however, is that there are almost always two homeless camped out on the cement in front of the local welfare office.
There is no social housing in Chilliwack. The nearest one is in Abbotsford and it is always full. If the BC Liberals were serious about tackling the homeless problem, they'd need to do 3 things - raise housing rates to what housing actually costs, build new social housing units and not just SROs, allow welfare recipients to have roommates and borders without penalizing them.
anarcho
4 years ago
Some Facts
I did a little fact checking by looking at the 1965 Vancouver Sun want ads. More than two full length columns of rooms and bed sits, ranging in price from $30-$40 a month. This would work out to 35% of a welfare cheque of the day and 20-25% of a full time minimum wage job. You could also rent a room in a Gastown flop for $1.00 a night. That is why there were no homeless. The poor could afford a place to live. Greed and corruption - in the form of a refusal to encourage the preservation/building of affordable housing and a refusal to discourage speculation are the ultimate causes of the problem.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Taylor out
It is my hope that Taylor is out because of the mess that things are in now, and not the incredible mess things will become once the USA leads the world into the next recession/depression. It looks like a fire sale for bankrupt businesses and personal mortgages south of the border. It is so bad that even the Bush government knows it must put its finger in the dyke. Big money is running scared, that is why they are pulling out. But Canada will be close behind because the USA buys nearly all of the export.
What has all of this to do with homelessness? It means it could get a great deal worse since our government didn't see it fit to take care of things during a period when resource prices were high and in demand. I grow weary when I consider the incompetence and the greed that are the hallmarks of this mean-spirited government.
http://www.thedeal.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=TheDeal/Page/DealSpectrum&c=Page&cid=1002921121322
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ar909uO1CqHw&refer=home
rousseau
4 years ago
looks to me, gwest, that you
STOP WITH THE PERSONAL INSULTS AND BICKERING, WHICH ARE NOT WELCOME ON TYEE THREADS. PLEASE REVIEW COMMENTER GUIDELINES. YOU ARE WASTING VALUABLE TIME FOR OUR MODERATORS, WHO COULD BE PRODUCING JOURNALISM INSTEAD OF REFEREEING SQUABBLES. -- TYEE MODERATOR
realisticman
4 years ago
Somebody spoke and I went into a dream
I read the news today oh, boy
Two thousand homeless in Vancouver,
And since this number was rather small
Chudnov had to count them all
Now they know how many homeless
it takes to fill a Sally Anne Hall
He'd love to turn us off
G West
4 years ago
No personal attacks at all rousseau
And I have no problem accepting that there are people out there who believe irrational things...that's how we got into this mess.
If your statement that you're not going to 'engage' any longer means I won't have to put up with your name calling and ad hominem attacks, so much the better.
Attacking someone's ideas has nothing to do with attacking them personally.
Bailey
4 years ago
Persuasion
I have a problem with all of this badinage.
It's boring.
Argument I like. Debate. Evidence, reason and speculation. Analysis. Ideas that contribute to understanding the subject. But...
The value of this kind of public conversation is not the opportunity to convert others to our own particular view. It's the chance to increase the amount of thought we all indulge in. The concern we feel about the subjects under consideration and the chances that something will maybe come of it.
We all know that bullshit baffles brains. It's the prime directive in modern political thought. This type of public forum is our first chance in years to counter that trend with real talk.
Please let's not blow it by
just substituting our own bullshit for the branded official type. I mean, once you've said what you have to say, and others have also, then that's good. Just move on, OK?
Advance the argument, or don't.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
I agree Bailey; perhaps better yet:
Enter into a dialogue where truth, as nearly as it can be discerned, is the ultimate goal. Enter with the idea that the information and beliefs you hold may be in fact be misinformation or the result of faulty reasoning. Enter into a dilogue with a desire to do good, with a desire not to persuade but to discover and grow.
I recommend all go to "Table 9-1: Debate versus dialogue" that is found at the end of this article:
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/5351.html
Perhaps read the whole article.
HawkEyes
4 years ago
A population of 10,000...
is also to be found in Whistler.
There's the comparison...
It's beyond housing.
And why is Carole Taylor good? She has never uttered one word against Campbell about any of his nasty choices, has she?
...Is he the godfather of one of her kids?
Any good ghost towns?
rousseau
4 years ago
to the editor
it seems a little odd that i get censored for telling gwest that i'm not interested in personal attacks, yet his post calling me a fool still stands. does he have pictures?
G West
4 years ago
Look at the record again
I never once called you a fool.
And, in terms of being edited - have a look back up the comments thread if you think my words have any immunity here - they don't.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
It's not a mystery 1...
First, as any good shrink worth his couch will tell you, there are times and situations where anger is an entirely rationale response. It is the containment of righteous anger, in fact, that is the source of sickness, in individuals and across whole societies.
The problem for the rightists here is, of course, they are so used to dominating this righteous Field of Anger unchallenged, with only whimpering and near cowering "polite" parliamentary language from what has passed for "the left" too long now, that when the rising "serious" left responds in kind and with its own righteous wrath, our neoconazi babykins get their feelings hurt.
Poor babas. Suck it up, kiddies. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.
And as for the measure of all worth surpluses, corporate and State, that you rightists so much like to tout as the great achievements of the capitalist system, has it never seemed worthy of notice to you folks that where they exist and are the greatest, great and growing poverty is its parallel development within the capitalist economic system?
Of course not, because it is so common and everyday a phenomena that-, you take it for granted. You assume it. You know that those surpluses at the end of the sleight of hand that occurs in the "free" marketplace, between capital and labour, and capital and the consumer (largely the same working class folks), and in the inequitable taxation system of The Capitalist State that parallels and mimics this same "free market", that this is the source of your profit raison d'etre.
And the relationship twist both these phenomenon; on the one hand, the huge corporate share that goes to CEO salaries, dividends and bonuses, and the huge returns to "capital" that grow out of the "surplus" corporate earnings, stock and bond dividends, and on the other hand the declining share that goes to working class incomes, and the escalating levels of their impoverishment, are but two different aspects of this very same thing. Increased profitability doesn't drop down out of the sky, as Fait is often so fond of saying, but only comes as I say, as a consequence of this poverty that is the free market's robbing of working class share, and that of the poor.
Continued next post...
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
It's not a mystery 2...
From previous post...
And all that, of course, grows out of acceptance of the notion that the economy is the ownership plaything of the ruling class, and is not a social thing that goes on across the whole of society, necessarily engaged in by just about everyone in it, whatever their task, to serve the life sustaining needs of "the people" as a whole. Hence, in the other view, which is mine, that the economy needs to be seen as a broadly social construct that "should" at least, be serving the material and other needs of "the whole", not just the "privileged few".
And that is the war, justifying the anger still, being waged in society since the rise of class society with Greek and earlier slavery-, continuing in but modified form through feudalism down to the capitalist present. The War, a "class" war if you will, just happens to be heating up again, after a brief post WW2 respite, and hopefully, to my world view likes, will finally break out again in open, as opposed to simply keyboard conflict.
Capitalism is a form of organized theft, which is the source of both profit and poverty. They go together like love and marriage. :-) Perhaps better, a hand and glove. :-) Or better yet, capital and labour, profit surpluses and poverty
lynn
4 years ago
Let'em cake ...just let me keep my Guccis
I agree, Hawkeyes,
Puhleeze, let's stop letting Carole Taylor off the hook.
Is she speaking out now against the policies of the Gordon Campbell government?
Did she ever speak out against his ruthless policies?
Don't let nice ol' Carole's sweet smile fool ya.
Beauty is always a good "sell" but I know plenty of beautiful women, beautiful inside and out, who don't sell- out. Carole just doesn't like the feel of the rising muck that is about to stick to her pretty shoes.
Remember this was the finance minster that was wily/devious enough to introduce a signing bonus that was engineered purposely to trump our human rights as workers. Cash in trade for hard won worker rights. And Big Media and some of their most ignorant reporters are proclaiming this as her finest hour. Hardly something to be proud of.....( and those union leaders who equally complied, are equally a sell-out).
To cut to the chase, no matter what your political stripe, do not co-operate or participate in the "barbaric dispossession" happening under this present corrupt crew....one that has the audacity to call the poor and the vulnerable "thieves" while they stealthily steal our human rights and billions of dollars of public assets away from us.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
rousseau
Perhaps your time could be better spent in attempting to engage in a dialogue. I would certainly appreciate it if you would read the paper by clicking the URL of the Harvard Business School paper on holding a dialogue:
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/5351.html
I know through my own struggling that political discussions (about how we ought to be governed and taxes collected and spent) on the Tyee may resort to name-calling and ad hominem distractions. When one feels unheard and/or disrespected, one may resort to attacking the disrespectful person (who at this point is obviously a fool) because the attacker is unwilling to accept a gift that obviously took some time to key into the computer.
We must recognise that there be trolls wandering about cyberland with the sole purpose in life seems to be creating havoc for others. The Tyee has had its share in recent years. There was a great slowdown of trollsome activity when the Liberal Media Monitors were first brought into the limelight.
Regarding GWest:
Having seen a good number of GWest's responses over the years, I must say that he wishes good things for the province of BC, for Canada, and for the planet Earth. He cares about people. I can also say that I believe I understand that he grows weary and sometimes agitated when someone attacks one of his postings without having read (and really attempted to understand) all of the article and what has been written by other posters before making a posting themselves. GWest always operates in this manner, and I believe it to be very ethical.
I have also noticed that GWest seems to have a very good memory, and he will usually remember having previously made a point about a topic and to whom. I know that I find it quite tiresome to be asked to prove the same point again and again, or to read someone contentiously attempting to make a point which was proven false or found to be unfounded in postings past. It is equally tiresome to read one's own points treated as inane when in fact they have been demonstrated time and again that they cannot be proven false. I think that GWest has demonstrated to all of us that he is of at least genius caliber. I often believe it is more a curse than a blessing to be as smart as GWest. What is so simple for him to see may be quite difficult for others.
Van Isle
4 years ago
We have seen nothing yet,
We have seen nothing yet, when the whole worlds economy just implodes, and very soon. The people who think that our economy is going along just swimmingly, just haven't being paying attention. Gordioccio will most likely win the next election but just wait after that, he'll go down as probably the most corrupt government since the coalition government of the '40's. Hells bells and buckets of blood; why is Carol Taylor leaving? She ain't no dummy; she can see the writing on the wall and smells the stench, she's going to put as much distance between herself and Gordioccio.
lynn
4 years ago
"You ain't seen nuthin' yet. "
Poor babas. Suck it up, kiddies. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.
Amen to that.
An excellent piece, Canis Latrans.
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
Grim Fairy Tales
Earlier this week I helped organize a comminity meeting on TILMA-Trade,Investment, Labour, Mobility Agreement-here in Ladner. This agreement between B C and Alta. was signed without any debate, public consultation etc.
This agreement basically takes democracy away from the public and puts it in the hands of corporations.
Even our press release titled TILMA and the Loss of Democracy was severly edited.
So what does this have to do with homelessness? Not much i guess but homeless, working, unemployed-we are under attack by this ruthless undemocratic "government".
Some of us have homes and some of us don't. Some of us will die because of the decisions of this government.
Some of us will buy into the "fairytales" about B C being a great place to live.
The best fairytale of all?...the Government "magic wand" will be waved-{the buying up of the Downtown Eastside hotels}- and presto- no more homeless.
But some of us will see through the "Emperors New Clothes" and will live to fight on.
I don't know if there a happy ending to this fairy tale.
If you are a "binner" on the Downtown Eastside and collecting those bottles from the dumpsters for the deposits helps get you through the day. What will happen without those few dollars everyday to those "dumpster divers" ? I don't think there is any magic for them, just more grinding poverty.
As for Carole Taylor, Gordon Campbell and the whole lot of them, I really don't know how they sleep at night.
To end i would like to leave this tale..not a fairytale as it really happened. It reveals the true nature of the Liberals.
During the the election that brought the Liberals to power, I knew a lawyer who was taking affadavits from the homeless on the Downtown Eastside so they could vote.
She was busy signing up some homeless when 4 Liberals, all big men in leather jackets appeared and started harrassing the homeless. They were well fed articulte and the homeless were thin and scared. They managed to intimidate the homeless into leaving and not signing the affadavits.
They laughed and left. Their "work" was done.
I have never forgottern this. The image of the four guys taking away the rights of the homeless stays with me today. The Liberals are the true stuff of nightmares. They are the "boogeymen' of our childhoods.
Life in B C has become a nightmare.
rousseau
4 years ago
'Life in B C has become a
'Life in B C has become a nightmare.'
economy booming, employment everywhere, taxes down, infrastructure improving. most british columbians would beg to differ, as the next election will prove in spades.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
The next election...
Don't give a rat's ass what the next election so-called "proves", buddy-boy. It's a ruling class and their bum boys rigged construct in any case-, that will proceed despite almost 1/3 of the electorate not even seeing enough worthwhile in it, to even bother participating. Self included.
It's a sham that pulls the wool over the eyes of only those who allow it-, and insist on treating it seriously.
Folks need to find other ways in which to take a more real democracy in whole other directions, and to a whole other level. (Which is not to say, in a particular circumstance unforeseen as yet, that the "official" electoral system may not be taken advantage of, and put to some good use, as part of the overall transformation of society and its economy. Though there does first need to be a major change in the level of understanding driving such a political move, and major personnel and ideas changes than currently pass for the "parliamentary left" in this country-, at this unsatisfactory place and time.)
A bs democratic system is still bs, no matter how you try to dress it up, perfume it, and pass it off-, in whatever official language.
Bailey
4 years ago
You old dawg you
I've been meaning to say. I really enjoy your voice, and your way of putting things. It's a pleasure to run into you around here, sometimes.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
Sometimes.
Don't think that ending "sometimes" escaped my notice, brother. :-)
I know , I know. I am a flawed human being. :-)
And likewise, bro. I always enjoy hearing your particular "voice"-, even when I disagree with it. :-)
And Southdeltawalker, I hear you too brother. You've "changed/evolved" too, in a good way, in my view, over the time, rather a long time, since I first heard your voice too. :-)
RickW
4 years ago
rousseau/EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULT
.
Did you think this up all by yourself? Splendid piece of propaganda!
Gets people thinking (although we certainly can't encourage toomuch of this now, can we?) that those 10,000 must be lazy, shiftless bums - even the kids.
Next thing ya know, someone will break out the pitchforks, torches, tar, feathers, and all the other paraphernalia for getting rid of the "undesirables".
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
rousseau - misnomer
From this wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau
I believe that you might be able to find a better handle for your current strongly held right wing beliefs, Rouseau. You seem to have forgotten the socialism part of rouseau's thinking. I don't know, if you are trying for someone that was big at the time of the French Revolution, perhaps Marie Antoinette might be a better handle. You seem to think that nearly all of the people of BC are having a good time and that the priviledged ruling class is doing a damn fine job. "Let them eat cake!" - though they won't find any cake through dumpster-diving any longer: Vancouver is doing away with the dumpsters.
Frank
4 years ago
Education outcomes...
If everything is going so well its a wonder we can't afford to help kids or the homeless or actually do anything for the environment. Instead its always nothing but the usual platitudes.
As regards the NDP in the 90's, funny how they managed to produce better outcomes in healthcare (and a number of other areas) in spite of the fact that they received far less in federal transfers than the Libs have. They spent less yet enjoyed better outcomes and yet they are supposedly the worst government in history? Uh-huh.
Worst government ever? How about the 1982 Socreds (Liberals by another name) who actually produced a negative GDP of substantial size? I thought that was pretty cool.
Those who choose to be wilfully ignorant also tend to ignore numbers such as the fact that the current "boom" began before the Liberals won the 2001 election. Instead they believe that the Liberals of BC are such great managers of the economy they produced a boom across all of western Canada at the same time. All due to Gordon Campbell, he's absolutely amazing in their eyes I guess.
lynn
4 years ago
Broken
Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow:
Quote:
"I would set you free, if I knew how. But it isn't free out here. All
the animals, the plants, the minerals, even other kinds of men, are
being broken and reassembled every day, to preserve an elite few, who
are the loudest to theorize on freedom, but the least free of all. I
can't even give you hope that it will be different someday -- that
They'll come out, and forget death, and lose Their technology's
elaborate terror, and stop using every other form of life without
mercy to keep what haunts men down to a tolerable level -- and be like
you instead, simply here, simply alive..."
rousseau
4 years ago
rickw; i guess the next
rickw; i guess the next election will tell us what MOST british columbians believe, (the typical tyee reader excepted, i've discovered in the last few days).
sharingisgood; marie antoinette never really said 'let them eat cake'. that is a myth. as are most of the economic and social forecasts i've been reading about from most of the posters on this site in the last few days. by the way, rousseau also believed in the individual and the right to free choice, which also seems to have vanished from this site. you're welcome for the history lesson.
rousseau
4 years ago
by the way sharing; you may
by the way sharing; you may want to use a more reliable source than wikipedia for your research.
Frank
4 years ago
rousseau = Elliot
Some of us prefer to think for ourselves rather than look at the result of an election to learn what we should believe.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
wikipedia reliability
BBC article:
Thursday, 15 December 2005,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm
I never thought Marie Antoinette really said let them eat cake, rouseau. However, sometimes a myth is as good as the fact when comparing things. People often quote Shakespeare for the same effect.
Being a Socialist does not preclude people's having choice in what they do. Socialists just want to take care of everyone's needs.
Bailey
4 years ago
Dear Lynn;
Holy Mackeral! What a quote!
It's been some years since I met anybody who's even read that amazing novel, let alone heard anybody quote it. And so perfectly appropriately. I take off my hat to you.
But how very hopeless, as well. I refuse to lose hope. Let me offer you a little, taken from the image of the title, the curve of a ballistic path...
Please remember that anyway, what goes up, must come down.
Appropos of nothing in particular, may I recommend to you an earlier work by the same author? "The Crying of Lot 49"
mcdull
4 years ago
The comment about the pot
The comment about the pot holes is true here on the Island they never did get fixed.It is bad when in the snow you see people heading for the beach to sleep because it is slightly warmer and this is in a small town of 7000. That is if they could get across that very poorly plowed highway. It is bad when the Malahat is clearer than from Chemainus to Nanaimo.
GJW
4 years ago
Numbers
The numbers in this study don't make sense. 35 in Campbell River and 75 in Port Hardy and Port McNeill? That can't be right.
The problem is the people are difficult to count, we are relying here purely on the impressions of social workers and shelter workers, which are very subjective. And a head count would be hard to do because many homeless people don't want to be counted, which I can understand.
rousseau
4 years ago
frank; the election will be
frank; the election will be the ultimate survey on whether or not citizens believe the dire estimations and predictions that most who post here seem to believe.
sharing; rousseau believed in the 'social contract'i.e. that society needed a contract in which everyone agreed to abide by certain rules, and in natural law, i.e. people have a naturally good will that is destroyed by gov't and modern society.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
errata
"*Being a Socialist does not preclude people's having choice in what they do."
Should have read, "Being socialist does not exclude people's having choice in what they do."
With free choice comes responsibility. If the majority of people decide that it is safer for all of us to place limits on some individual (or group) behaviours, then in a society ruled by law, we should follow those limits. Many of the most wealthy among us are not behaving responsibly: their wealth comes off of the toil of poorly recompensed others and the raping of the environment. The citizens of Canada have a long tradition of making sure that everyone has basic needs of health care, education, food & shelter, and safety of their person. Though the economy for the wealthy has improved over the last 6 years (mainly due to higher commodity prices and the fact the Feds did not join the Iraq War), Canada has been doing a poor job of meeting the basic needs of many. BC has been doing an especially bad job of this.
Frank
4 years ago
Elliot
An election is no more than an opinion poll. It tells us what people think, as you said, but it shouldn't tell us what to think.
I'm sure even you didn't become an NDPer just because they won two elections in the 90's.
dr evil
4 years ago
elections
DJT
4 years ago
???
Quote:
"The election will be the ultimate survey on whether or not citizens believe the dire estimations and predictions that most who post here seem to believe".
Huh? I think you give the average voter way too much credit. The "survey", as you call it, will probably be more a reflection of a "screw you jack, I'm alright" attitude, complacency, a belief in more than two percent of what one reads (or does not read) in a CanWest publication, or all three. Quotes like the above are also (possibly) indicative of same.
rousseau
4 years ago
or it will be a reflection
or it will be a reflection of how british columbians feel about being run by a gov't that isn't plagued by pathetic scandals and branded by bureaucratic back-stabbing and vicious in-fighting.
Bailey
4 years ago
You haven't been paying attention
If you believe that this government isn't
"plagued by pathetic scandals and branded by bureaucratic back-stabbing and vicious in-fighting"
I recommend you to BC Mary's rivetting investigation of evidence surrounding the RCMP raid on the BC Legislature.
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
and all the articles here and on Bill Tieleman's site.
lynn
4 years ago
what goes up, must come down
.... simple and true.
Thanks for the heartening reminder, Bailey. It even abides by Ed's natural and physical laws theory. ;-)
... just please let there always be gravity. ;-)
Cheers,
L.
DJT
4 years ago
???
"A government that isn't plagued by pathetic scandals". ??? I rest my case.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
Ultimate survey drivel...
Who said men only love women for their bodies?
I love Lynn, and I ain't never even seen the woman.
I love her mind. :-)
Hmmmm. Upon reflection, I have seen a photo of her. Wellll, her mind too. :-D lol
As for Elliot, err, pardon me... Rousseau-, yawwwwn! Two thumbs down. Let him eat one of his rightist surveys.
Always good to read ya Lynn. Nobody sharper or with more depth known to me, woman. :-)
dorothy
4 years ago
Now, see here...
"marie antoinette never really said 'let them eat cake'. that is a myth."
If it is indeed a myth, it does not matter, whether she said it or not, for myth is about that which never was, but always is. Which means, it does not aim to be a correct report of actual events, but rather to express the soul of a whole group of events. How do you, by the way, know she never said it? It is darn hard to prove a negative. The point is, that she might or could have said it, and it adequately expresses the gist of things in a general sense. History is littered with glittering, oblivious people, who walk right over dead bodies and suffering fellow humans, pursuing their next little boredom-relieveing adventure. This is what that little myth is about, all such queens, and none of them in particular.
Do you think you can understand that? There is more to life than facts and statistics. There is the grand epic quality, which you do not have to buy access to from the ticketmaster, but which surrounds you every day, everywhere. If you remember that, and take the time to smile a little now and then, including over yourself, then you will not end up so easily in these grindingly acrimonious exchanges with other good people.
realisticman
4 years ago
Lynn Quote:Puhleeze, let's
Lynn
Is she speaking out now against the policies of the Gordon Campbell government?
Did she ever speak out against his ruthless policies?
Don't let nice ol' Carole's sweet smile fool ya. ...
Remember this was the finance minster that was wily/devious enough to introduce a signing bonus that was engineered purposely to trump our human rights as workers. Cash in trade for hard won worker rights.
Wonderful fun Lynn. Just great to see the scorn on the finance minister that not only obtained labour peace, across the spectrum, but gave about a billion dollars of wage increases to public sector workers. This is where the circle is complete and the extreme leftists meet the extreme rightists with both decrying this action. Fortunately, the fringes are just that and the vast majority considers that the settlements were right - especially the workers and their families!
Since we're quoting, here's one:
G West
4 years ago
Interesting that R/man
The bit about 'negotiating' I mean...You DO have a very short memory.
The Supreme Court of Canada, The United Nations, The Crown Prosecutors of British Columbia and the Health Care Workers of this province have a long memory...and all of them, and more, will tell you exactly what 'negotiating' really means to this government.
You could, for example, consider the disconnect between what Carole Taylor has taken for herself and what she has GIVEN others.
I didn't notice her being very independent on that score...but she did manage to swallow the party line every time a vote over an increase in the minimum wage came up.
Funny that!
If someone put the boots to negotiations, collective bargaining and the sanctity of the law in this province, it wasn't the Unions.
You might want to check Bill Tieleman's blog for a little more 'perspective' about the way 'business' is done in this province these days...don't forget to note a comment from Budd Campbell - these are dark days we haven't seen since Robert Bonner was the Attorney-General in BC.
But I do admire the way you take every opportunity to pretend that black is white; up is down; and John Kennedy was a real avatar of real freedom....tell it to the Cubans.
realisticman
4 years ago
Don't like independents?
It was an independent group, lawyer Sue Paish, former judge Josiah Wood and University of B.C. business Prof. Sandra Robinson that recommended that all MLAs have a raise and they too said what that raise should be. Michael Geoghegan perhaps said it best:
http://mgcltd.blogspot.com/2005/04/mlas-deserve-significant-pay-raise.html
So to say;
This is a joke, particularly since both parties voted for the raise, I presume?
lynn
4 years ago
To steal with one hand.....and to give....
.
Not so fast, realisticman.
Those bonuses were a scam. A PR scam based on false pretences. The bonuses were the public sectors own money coming back to them - money the BCLiberals stole from them through ripped up public sector contracts, years of caps, roll backs, and many years of zero percent wage increases. Money stolen from health care workers under Bill 29 (that sweet privatization bill) that made multi-nationals like Sodexho rich and health care workers poor (leaving many out of work only to be re-hired at wages that were almost cut in half).....resulting in much of the understaffing chaos and neglect we see in health and senior care today.
Labour peace was no noble idea of Taylor's or the BC Liberals - it was all about smoothing the sacred yellow (ummmm, make that golden) brick road to the Olympics.
I'm not as smart or as wise as Canis Latrans kindly give me credit for - but I think I'm smart enough not be fooled by fluttering eyelashes. I got a pair of my own - I know how they work.
Read some of Will McMartin's excellent Tyee pieces on Carole Taylor.... the real deal on her cooked-up surplus financial fudge...who really pays and who really benefits.
realisticman
4 years ago
Thanks for the update
Lynn
I've always wondered how on earth the NDP was able to make the bid for the Olympics when it seems that just about all of their supporters vehemently hate the Olympics. One has to wonder how the NDP changed or what actually happened. I also wonder what the NDP would have done had they been in power when they won their 2010 Games. Would they have said, 'Nah, changed our minds'?
G West
4 years ago
Sue Paish
IS INDEPENDENT?...now that is a laugh.
She's just another member of the exact same establishment law firm from which came:
Attorney General Geoff Plant;
Mr. Justice McEachern; (of Delgamuukw fame - it was his decision that got overturned)
Mr Bill Berardino...among others.
You would appear to have a serious problem with reality my friend.
Let me give you a little insight into exactly how 'independent' Sue Paish is:
Susan Paish, Q.C., chief executive officer, Pharmasave Drugs (National) Ltd. – Ms. Paish is responsible for the overall strategy and direction for Pharmasave’s nearly 400 community-based retail pharmacies and health centers coast-to-coast. As Managing Partner of Fasken Martineau DuMoulin LLP in Vancouver, Ms. Paish spearheaded the expansion of the firm from one office in Vancouver to international status with nine offices on three continents. She was also named in 2005 to the list of ''Canada’s Most Powerful Women - Top 100''; in 2004 as one of Vancouver’s Most Influential Women in Business; and in 2003 as one of Canada’s Top 25 Women Lawyers.
Even as it was, Sue Paish wasn't exactly full of exuberant praise for the results and the methodology this little 'independent' panel employed.
http://www.strategicthoughts.com/record2007/MLApaypension.html
You need to expand your reading my friend...this is VERY old news.
And, by the way, was the decision not to raise the minimum wage to $10/hour an "independent" one too?
I suggest you look at the list of registered lobbyists in this province if you think that.
Frank
4 years ago
Olympics
Easy, the NDP didn't get the okay of those who voted it into power before proceeding.
It was a stupid idea when Glen Clark championed it and its a stupid idea now.
G West
4 years ago
GEOGHEGAN
You're not seriously quoting that guy as any kind of a reliable spokesman for anything?
He's a paid shill - I love those pics of him with the Premier almost as much as I do that Maui mug-shot of Gordon Campbell.
realisticman
4 years ago
Do you have
something negative to say about Sandra too? I'm sure you do;
Is she a shill for globalization or something?
realisticman
4 years ago
and Justice Josiah Wood?
Was he snowed under by Sue? Or does he have skeletons that you'd care to expose?
Methinks that thou doest protest too much.
Plus ca change, I guess.
Frank
4 years ago
Realisticman
Perhaps instead a committee made up of one single mum on welfare, one homeless person and one person working at minimum wage would have come to a different conclusion than our esteemed, and well paid, judge, lawyer and business school professor?
realisticman
4 years ago
Sure, Frank
and next time the province is considering an art facility for downtown Vancouver an experienced independent group should be asked. Perhaps a farmer from Kamloops, a fisherman from Port Hardy and a ski instructor from Revelstoke.
rousseau
4 years ago
everyone's a conspiracy
everyone's a conspiracy theorist on this site. do you think they'll ever nail george w. for bringing down the wtc?
Frank
4 years ago
Realisticman
Why not? You have something against balance?
Frank
4 years ago
Elliot
Including you, I've heard your attacks on Chudnovsky. He's the wizard of Oz apparently.
G West
4 years ago
Here's to you Mrs Robinson
We'd like to know a little bit about your for our files
We'd like to help you learn to help yourself.
Look around you all you see are sympathetic eyes,
Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home.
And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson,
Jesus loves you more than you will know.
God bless you, please, Mrs. Robinson.
Heaven holds a place for those who pray,
Hey, hey, hey
Hide in the hiding place where no one ever goes.
Put it in your pantry with your cupcakes.
It's a little secret just the Robinsons' affair.
Most of all you've got to hide it from the kids.
Koo-koo-ka-choo, Mrs. Robinson,
Did you read what Ms Robinson said to Sean Holman?
I'll paste it in for you, save you the trouble of going back:
"We worked right up to that deadline. It was a bit of work - 'cause we didn't all see eye to eye. But we negotiated out a set of recommendations and signed off on those, and, then, it was only after I was in Europe that they changed their minds and came up with a different set" of recommendations. "So, yeah, to be completely left out - to have no influence on the outcome - was certainly frustrating."
Commissioner Sandra Robinson,
Sounds like a wonderfully "independent" commission to me.
Now, what was your point?
BTW, I notice you didn't address the other side of my proposition about the bona fides of the Finance Minister...the one about minimum wages - I don't think she voted YES on that bill, did she?
A small loss of concentration perhaps?
Her legendary fair-mindedness and even handed approach to helping the poor and the working poor slipped from her mind just at the wrong moment.
Perhaps ROD MICKLEBURGH had been speaking to her and whispering sweet nothings in her ear.
"She's so nice"
I trust you read his hagiography in the Saturday Globe?
realisticman
4 years ago
Balance!
I just lost my balance laughing Frank. This, is
idea of balance for a select committee on salaries for public servants?
---
Wasn't Gordon Campbell responsible for the last Ice Age? Too many USAF flights caused the eruption of Mount Pinatubo, for sure.
Frank
4 years ago
Realisticman
So you want people that make more money than politicians deciding on what they're paid and scoff at the idea of people that make less money making that decision.
Doesn't sound like you're a cheerleader for balance to me.
realisticman
4 years ago
Oh Carol(e)
Darling there will never be another
Cause I love you so,
Don't ever leave me,
Say you'll never go
I will always want you for my sweetheart
No matter what you do
Oh Carole, I'm so in love with you.
Frank
4 years ago
Carol
Um, nice sentiment r'man, I hope she says yes to you.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
And indeed....
And indeed there is, good woman. I liked that. It made me smile.
Though he will never get it, of course. No sense of ironic humour to go along with his misappropriated moniker from that "revolutionary" time-, when the rising capitalist class of that age still had something truly "revolutionary" to say and offer. Now we have but the poser Elliot, become one of the apologists for the inheritors of that earlier class, now in a time where they have come full circle, to be the counter-revolutionary elites of this time.
He has not the intellectual dexterity or capacity to see the irony in that which likely afflicts all creators of one time, sooner or later, in another time where they have exhausted everything that was new and truly "revolutionary" in them. It is called senility, to which we. and the movements we create, are all likely sooner or later subject-, if not us ourselves, then our later inheritors.
It is called "life", of course. :-) The dialectical dynamic of which totally escapes our poor excuse for a Rousseau here. B-D lol
lynn
4 years ago
No matter what you do
No matter what you do? hmmmmmmm....
Guess you love that expensive (cry me no crocodile tears) "surplus" purse of hers. Under her watch, while bragging of surpluses and of BC being "the best place on earth" - an ever growing number of poor children went hungry (under the highest child poverty rate in Canada) - and the homeless kept increasing in truly disturbing numbers. Even the UN remarked that that the situation of BC's homeless was among the most devastating in the world now....some have even compared it to the streets of Calcutta.
So yeah, that's your kind of girl, realisticman - and soooo nice..... kinda like the mom who proudly boasts that her new Gucci purse is just a'bulging with bills - but yet there is no money for food for her hungry children - and nothing to provide a roof over their head, either.
(Geez, you must absolutely love old Bette Davis and Joan Crawford movies.)
She was a cabinet minister with one of the most important posts in government. She has never uttered one word against the policies of the Grodon Campbell government. The only conclusion to come to is that she supported them - either that or she does not have the courage of her convictions to speak out against policies that have caused much suffering to many.
At least when Nettleton and Brenzinger left they weren't looking out for number one. They had the integrity and the courage to speak out against the Campbell government.
She obviously agrees with the policies of Gordon Campbell because she has said absolutely nothing.
realisticman
4 years ago
You should get out more
Lynn
Wow! I guess you haven't been to India, Lynn. Do you really have any idea what the streets are like there?
It's funny, when governments have a deficit it's called a fiscal problem and they struggle to solve it so they don't leave a debt to their children. BC has a surplus, even after giving the public sector workers raises that all voted for in quick succession and it's called a disaster.
lynn
4 years ago
you, rousseau and the crew
and btw, r/man, you should read that brilliant piece by Dorothy above that Canis Latrans mentions....since it's quite obvious that you, rousseau and the crew are all "carpooling" together these days. ;-)
...and c'mon everybody knows Marie Antoinette ended her every prayer with a whisper of "and let 'em eat cake"....forever and ever.....amen.
realisticman
4 years ago
Get some perspective
In India thousands of children are being mutilated annually. The joints of their bones get injected with bleach. Infection is the result and amputation follows. Eyes are stuck out as well.
Afterwards, the children are sent out on the streets where they have to beg for money, 15 hours a day or more. The proceeds of the begging goes to the torturers, which are organised gangs specialised in mutilation and exploitation of defenceless children.
Visibly deformed children invoke pity and sympathy, and thus these children are lucrative beggars. Especially western tourists appear to be sensitive; they give money generously. Therefore, tourism is one of the most important causes for the growth of this horrible practice.
Fear and subjugation
The child beggars are kidnapped as a baby or a kid. Often they are bought from very poor parents by false promising. Hereafter the new ‘owners’, mostly the gang leaders, mutilate the children with possible help from corrupt physicians.
As soon as the wounds get healed, the lame child is sent out on the street. To struggle means to get maltreated. Especially the threat of further mutilation appeals to enormous fear and subjugation. This is why the children beg for seven days a week, especially at the places which are visited by tourists. During the day you will find the children close to hotels, souvenir shops and tourist sights. In the evening they go to expensive restaurants and nightclubs. Although tens of thousands of children must suffer this horrible fate, perpetrators rarely get arrested.
realisticman
4 years ago
Specifically, Calcutta
About the worst thing you can ever do, is to give them money. The Great Gandhi never gave them money nor did the Great Mother Teresa. The reasons for this are numerous, but mostly relate to the behind the scenes social problems that giving money creates. One of the most common problems is with drugs. The worst situation I have ever seen, was in Manilla in the Philippines, where the street children were addicted to the codeine in cough-mixture. Tourists used to give them money thinking they were helping to feed them, when in fact they were helping to kill them. Here in Calcutta, drugs are also a real problem.
lynn
4 years ago
Massive Homelessness Crisis in BC
r/man,
Everyone in my family was born in India but myself. My dad ia Anglo-Burmese but was born in India. My parents lived there for over thirty years. This was my mother's comment upon seeing the Downtown Eastside recently: "My god, it looks like a war zone, not far removed from how I remember the streets of Calcutta."
From the Tyee:
UN Observer: 'Massive Crisis' in Vancouver
Blames 'misguided policy' for homeless wave.
By Am Johal; October 31, 2007 - TheTyee.ca
Miloon Kothari, the UN Special Rapporteur for Housing, recently visited Canada on a fact-finding mission to look at the issues of homelessness, Aboriginal housing issues, women's housing issues and the impact of the 2010 Olympic Games in Vancouver. Mr. Kothari granted this interview during his recent visit....
What about Vancouver?
There is a deep homelessness problem here. I must say I was taken aback by the scale of the crisis here in the Downtown Eastside.....
The decrepit nature of SROs, the conditions of the buildings that people are living in, very poor health...I was repeatedly struck by the contrast that I see because it is such a beautiful city, because there has been so much investment. It is striking that a few blocks from million-dollar condominiums, that there is such immense poverty...
There seems to be a disconnect between the economic policies in Vancouver and the social policies that need to be in place.
Are Olympics and hallmark events linked to evictions?
The history of mega-events -- whether they are Olympic Games, hallmark events, large conferences -- the history has been very negative, in terms of the legacy related to housing.....
I would say that the part that is the most disturbing, and the scale is astounding, is the issue of forced evictions.... what we see is an astronomical rise in development and market-driven evictions.
Today, more people are being displaced by large development projects than places of conflict. There are shocking statistics, millions of people around the world being displaced.
There is the whole area of increased speculation on land and property and the firm belief now across the world of the primacy of the market. This expansion of neo-liberal thinking has many nation-states moving away from addressing these complex phenomena as legitimate social issues."