Is this an Anecdote?

Good ole dependable reality_check once again counters statistics the easy way - just make up your own.......

"While this (sic) statistics might be true, single women make about the same wage as single men nowadays, according to Mismatch. "

I dare you to read that statement and reconcile the two parts in other words or shorter reality_check:

71% and 100% are equal - you read it here!

then he ends thus:

"The 71% is a bit of a hyperbole and sensationalism, but I am sure that the professor did not have a chance to colour her statement."

Is Ms. Griffin-Cohen using a colouring book or what. I think reality_check might actually be the hyperbole in the haystack here.

"Men get $6 hour more for

"Men get $6 hour more for similar work". Makes for a good headline, but I can guarantee you it's a crock.

let's see your guarantee

Because I don't think you can come up with any actual evidence outside of some personal anecdote.

still nothing but anecdotes

And sports stories

Where does it end,

Where does it end, George?

I believe we are all intrinsically of the same worth and value. But should everyone in society earn exactly the same salary? Hmm...

Would you go to university for 8 years to become a doctor if you would earn the same as, say, an ambulance driver? Both are noble professions. Both save lives. But both the doctor and the ambulance driver looked at the job description, the job hours & conditions, the amount of education necessary for the job, and made a decision as to which they would pursue. There are more female doctors than female ambulance drivers. Doctors make double the salary of ambulance drivers. Is this proof of gender inequality against men?

For the most part, jobs pay more for two criteria: Either few people are qualified (because of a greater investment of education and training), or few people want to do them because of some undesirable component.

At the crux is whether a library clerk and a labourer are "similar work." I would argue that in rainy Vancouver, they are not.

Koolcoot, use your brain not your heart

"While this (sic) statistics might be true, single women make about the same wage as single men nowadays, according to Mismatch.

I dare you to read that statement and reconcile the two parts in other words or shorter reality_check:

71% and 100% are equal - you read it here!

then he ends thus:

"The 71% is a bit of a hyperbole and sensationalism, but I am sure that the professor did not have a chance to colour her statement."

Is Ms. Griffin-Cohen using a colouring book or what. I think reality_check might actually be the hyperbole in the haystack here."

1st, the grammatical error has NOTHING to do with the content of my comment. I know women are overly conditioned to be concerned about superficial and arbitrary rules (or form), but your argument is weakened when you resort to using spelling and grammatical errors to make your point!

As for the content of your argument, well, my statement stands. Read it again! I state SINGLE women earn (according to the stats found in Mismatch) similar wages as their male counterparts.

The 71% deals with all women and all men who work full-time, if we trust the professor's stats (which are not referenced, BTW). Naturally women who entered the workforce years ago and were conned or the ones who rely/relied on their partners'salary to get their SUV and jade rings have little to complain about. The rich capitalists and landowners of former years always seem to find a woman to marry! And many women want the ATM machine. If women wanted to stop the nonsense, they would stop breeding with the sociopaths who make up the rich elite/CEOs, drug-dealers, corrupt politicians,... But, then, these women are probably just as sociopathic, claiming they need millions to raise their kids! By 30, they might need to share the loot with another younger wife/mistress ... and, while whining about it (of course), might take 1/2 ... home! Of course, the trophy wife needs a casing! I haver yet to see a woman organization complaining about the totally unfair divorce rules that make some women very rich!

Have you ever actually checked reality?

The statement in the article says:

"If you compare average wages for Canadians working full time all year, women only make 71 per cent of what men make," says SFU prof and pay-equity expert Marjorie Griffin-Cohen. "

The fact that Ms. Griffin-Cohen is a faculty member at a respected institution like SFU and regarded as an expert in the field lends her a certain amount of "credibility" that someone named reality_check that is pretty consistent at expressing regurgitated reich wing talking points totally lacks. For you to just state that while the statistic stated MIGHT be true - it ISN"T true, is a clear cut case of manufacturing your own facts. Did you ever think of working in the Bush administration, there are many openings these days.....?

Who the hell is Miss Match or mismatch?

BTW, I didn't say that your grammar boo boo had anything to do with your statement - or its value or my point. However since I like to quote others, even Mr. bouncing_check, accurately, and if that involves reproducing grammar or spelling errors, I like to point out that the error wasn't introduced by myself. I'd say your sexist nature is also showing as you seem to assume that I am a woman, since I was girly enough to point out a grammar error.

Action Needed

Tom Sandborn should try and tell us why female fashion models are paid so much more than male ones. Why is it, Tom, that when one thinks of a supermodel only names like Heidi Klum or Kate Moss come to mind? I challenge anyone to name just one rich male supermodel. This is surely a gross injustice and there's no fuzzy question of equal value.

We need an intrepid reporter aiming for a Pulitzer. Get on to it Tom, grab your pencil and notebook and get out there. Expose this outrageous inequity!

Compliments to the Pastor

I must say Pastor GWest, your sermon this morning was a topper! I had to stop after reading a few words and go and put on Beethoven's 9th as background to reading the rest. Glory be, may the day of salvation be at hand!

Do supermodels have a union?

Getting pretty close to the bottom of the barrel R/man. I guess you can't read either.

Do supermodels have a union?

I don't think that they do. Maybe that's why they earn so much. Interesting to hear that a union leader was concerned that staff would be lost during the strike because the workers would earn more in the private sector.

Of course, I forgot

You're the guy who believes that everything bad comes from unions aren't you?

Thanks for the reminder.

Eyewitness Unreliability

Let me know where I wrote "everything bad comes from unions" and I'll send a $1,000 cheque to the charity of your choice. Don't concoct fish stories, please.

You're right - I just extrapolated

from your statement about what was wrong with health care in BC. Remember?

More outdated class battles led by crusading socialist ideologues that couldn't care less about people as long as the impossible party line is maintained.

And you have the effrontery to call me a 'preacher'?

I dare say my extrapolation was justified by the rest of your 'notions' about how things work.

I don't believe in charity by the way - I believe in giving everyone a working wage before we create any masters of the universe who can pretend they're great Christians and humanitarians by donating a bit of the excess to ease their guilty consciences. Or before they pretend to be patrons of the arts and educations after a career of screwing their workers and the environment.

You told the story - you clean up the fish.

By the way, don’t miss Jeffrey Simpson in today’s Globe – he has something to say that is a lot more relevant than Neil Reynolds does. By the way, he has the total debt figure wrong as well because he only included Federal liabilities. Even so, it’s pretty horrendous – here’s the last few lines for you – just so you know what’s coming:

The Bush administration's foreign policy obviously merits a D.

Its domestic economic policy merits a Triple D.

Off Topic, sorta

I've been busy this summer. How long has Coyote been back?

Quote:I don't believe in

Good one, GWest. Smack, bang on.

What we have here in these System Apologists seats at Tyee, however, would much rather leave us all to the tender mercies not, of these "pretender" philanthropists of the ruling oligarchy. Whereas in reality, it is typically just a PR exercise of benefit to public perceptions of the ruling class, that also, just coincidentally, serves as a tax write-off.

Forget the fancy "manager" of MacDonald's titles, the bullshit bonuses to the best brown nosers, and the office party suck-ups, and the other self-serving "philanthropies" and "flowers" for the "ladies", and just give us the cash and family assisting social services working folks, men and women, need.

Which in reality is going to take the heavy handed application of a little assembled, motivated and in motion working class power, not philantropy and throwing oneself to the tender mercies of anyone however.

Which is what it is really all about, of course; power. Who has it and who doesn't. Who needs to go out, organize and get themselves some, and who has the wherewithal in their jeans to get more.

Has anyone thought to ask...

Good question, Rick. Which if I hadn't just got back from watching the movie Hairspray, and am tired, I would actually like to have something to say about. 'Cause it is an important and relevant question.

Maybe upon the 'morrow brother, after a snooze. :-)

Though quickly off the top of my head, in the first place, " I work to live, not live to work". In which is contained probably the most elemental truth of it.

And what we call the economy is fundamentally and most importantly there, as a collective human activity, in order to meet the material and intellectual needs of people. However much class societies across history, including current capitalism, have come to distort this basic human activity into a self-serving pursuit of private profit and wealth-, at the expense very often, of these same elementary social and human needs.

Which distortion it is, I think, that mainly stands in the way of a more real and more prudent relationship with nature, and a more compassionate, as opposed to crass and cruel "survival of the fittest" relationship between all humans.

As good as I can do, this late at night.

Jobs of equal value

So in this whole library workers discussion we are talking about pay disparity based on someone's claim of "jobs of equal value" and painting the result as a gender bias.
What a lot of nonsense.
If you start out with a shakey premise then the arguments you build from that base will also be shakey; sound like apples and oranges? But trust the unions and the various academic lackeys to recharacterize it as gender bias. Johnny Cochrane has got nothing on these guys.

Maybe we should pay both groups upwards of $30 per hour because, lets face it, it is getting very expensive to live in Vancouver. Roll in a defined benefits pension, some kind of jobs for life policy and hopefully that will solve it all.

The only inequality left then is the fact that other 90% of us cannot get one of these government positions.

Reality sucks, Koolcoot! Sometimes women are not so bad off! 1/2

"If you compare average wages for Canadians working full time all year, women only make 71 per cent of what men make," says SFU prof and pay-equity expert Marjorie Griffin-Cohen. "

YES! And I state from a book written by 2 professors (Mismatch) that single women NOW make about the same kinds of salaries what men make. Are YOU stating that I am wrong? I know it does not sound as dramatic to state this as stating that women make 71% of what men make (because it actually means that YOUNG SINGLE women are doing pretty well financially nowadays and cannot wine and dine like they have been doing. According to these professors' figures and the book they wrote, the 71% does not deal with the kind of women that the professor is quoted to state. As far as my information shows, 71% deals with ALL women (full-time and part-time, whores or whores who are, but behave like normal women, lazy women who suck their husband's money, shopping all day,...). Oh! Of course, these women don't exist! Right? :)

Oh! I see! NO ONE can dispute Ms. Griffin-Cohen's statements or stats because she is an "authority" on all matters related to her field of expertise unless one is an expertise. For your information, my parents could not afford me an education of the kind that this prof got. I had to go work to repay those loans. Did she? I had to take a job while taking courses at university. Did she? I had to pay for my first car. Did she? In any case, Koocoot, should I also kneel and declare unconditional allegiance to this person and her data because she has a PhD? Don't you ever question someone's data? Has it not dawned on you that Ms. Griffin-Cohen 's name indicates a potential bias towards women (she is a woman and she has a hyphenated name after all). Regardless on how Ms. G.-C. got her PhD and the author quoted her, the fact is that the 71% she is quoted to state does not represent the whole figure, but it is a figure that has been repeated ad nauseam by women since the 1970s. In Mismatch, the authors offer other figures and, as I recall, the 71% deals with all women and men who work (including part-time workers). Do you get it now?

Reality sucks, Koolcoot! Sometimes women aren't so bad off! 2/2

What a cheap and stupid shot! On your own view, anyone who disagrees with a point of view that claims women are being shafted
is a right-winger and pro-Bush? Extremists of all poimt of views are dangerous and, while I am not Bush lover, I do not like
pro-feminist extremists who are not critical enough to challenge views that are erroneous. The professors back those with US bureau of Stats books. So, Kootcoot and the author of this article should support their statements with references like I do, like the authors of the book I quote, and then they will EARN my trust in their statements. Credibility is not given, is not earned by hyperboles, or nice written sentences appealing to persecutions (imagined or created). To link my thoughts and statements to Right-wing and Bush administration is CLEARLY proof that KoolCoot will not argue in a FAIR manner. You are using the same techniques that the CIA and dictatorships (right or left) to paint a person or a group's thoughts as bad by claiming some form of extremist view. I am not an extremist or fundamentalist because I happen to QUESTION someone's statement and a statement that seems to paint men (or the capitalists) as persecutors and women as perenial victims.

Apart from the emotional use of expletives which shows a lack of rationbality, perhaps you could have used your head to figure out that this had to be the name of a book!

Fair enough, but I bet you spell-check every messages you write and wait the full 2 minutes for the light to turn green at 3 a.m. in a rural intersection when driving back home when there is no one around a 3 km radius.

At the end of the day, I wonder if you will ever admit you made a mistake and admit that a statement that paints women as victims might not be true! I know the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but too much oil can result in a dangerous ... slip (pun intended)!

Great Tirade - No Milkbones for You Tho!

Jeepers, Creepers Mr. Reality_Sucks, I seem to heave exploded the last two brain cells on duty for you...........lets explore some of your logic (sic).

You still haven't said anything, who are the professors, where do they teach, what do they teach - who published THE BOOK. It's still just an anectdote.....

If they are doing so well, why can't they wine and dine like they have (or had?) been doing?

I didn't say Ms. G-C stats or statements were indisputable, I merely pointed out that they have a certain degree of credibilty backed up by HER NAME and POSITION etc., unlike your ANONYMOUS PROFESSORS that perhaps teach in the University of Your Imagination for all I know.

I'm sorry your parents couldn't send you to university, but are you sure you would have been admitted, you know had the grades or done well enough on the SAT?

I only suggested you seek employment with the Bush Administration because they too seem to prefer a non-reality, fact-free view of the universe.

Do you perhaps have a bias against women because you apparently are not one.....oh yeah, I don't spell check in the middle of the night and it's apparent you don't either, though you are at the keyboard in the middle of the night as is obvious from the time you posted your diatribe........

G employment standards west

You're asking if I am familiar with the Employment standards - come, come I thought you were able to guage the audience for your diatribes better than that.

I can gather from a number of your comments on this and other topics that you clearly have had no experience running a business. You seem to run on somewhat idealized academic theory of how the world of commerce should work.

Do you have management experience, organization experience, economics or financial experience? Your ideas will never fly in the real world. You are going to have to live with that, as you sit in your armchair prognosticating.

jane doe

Like I said earlier - you have no clue who I am or what I do - and it has no relevance to this debate. Suffice to say I am a professional who has been running a modestly-successful business for many years.

In the real world, I'm extremely familiar with the kinds of shady deals and cut corners, not to mention out and out fraud, that goes on in business - especially when it comes to treating employees fairly, compassionately and within the terms of the law - with which I also am very familiar, having been married to a lawyer for an equally long period of time.

My ideas fly and fly very well in the real world. Fairness, equity, collegial decision-making and profit sharing are the way to real success and satisfaction. The other method leads to employee ennui, distrust, a lack of commitment and dedication and a deep-seated and poisonous suspicion on both sides of a hotly adversarial relationship.

Now I have to get to work.

You gathered wrong.

It's disappointing.

G West-- in another thread you suggested that I read through your posts elsewhere to see how you communicate with people who oppose your views. In an effort to be fair, I did just that. In all honesty, while I'm sure you are extremely erudite and have a very good heart, you are among the most disrespectful posters on these boards. If someone disagrees with your world view, you go on a subtle attack, but an attack all the same, only using studies, reports or Globe and Mail columns (which seem to assume biblical proportions in these circles.) If opposing posters won't drink the koolaid, you imply that if they aren't with you, they're against you and go on to make sweeping judgments and insult their intelligence. In fairness, sometimes you do give others credit but ususally only if you are on the same team. That comes across as rather self-congratulatory.

Again, in fairness to you, I must give a couple of examples. In your recent posts to jane doe on this thread you write:

"Maybe it is time to learn a little and drop a few of your prejudices."

"Instead of selfishly bringing others down -why not work for better benefits yourself...?"

I'm a relative newcomer but it's obvious that most people on these boards are hardened into position and enjoy sparring for its own sake. That's fine if you want to waste your time. But it's pretty disheartening when you consider the state the world is in. If people living in a great democracy like Canada can't have a civil discussion how can humanity ever hope to resolve conflict on a global scale?
Frankly, reading these boards just depresses me.

Just answer me one question: do you want a healthy debate that might perhaps open minds on both sides, or do you simply want to stake out your version of the moral high ground and make everyone else go away?

vicki

I'm fair; I support my positions with evidence and data and I call a spade a spade. I’ll never get personal and I’ll deal with your view, ideas and beliefs – but not who you are, what sex you happen to have or what colour you are – unless YOU bring it up – then, I’m sorry but it’s fair game. There’s a semi-regular here who frequently boasts about how much better the people in West Vancouver are than the folks who live on the east side of Vancouver – in Fairview, for example. If somebody takes that attitude, I’ll happily and proudly try to take him apart.

There is nothing disrespectful in that, in my opinion. It’s just simple honesty.

Canada is NOT a great democracy by any stretch of the imagination and comparing it with places that are worse, such as the United States, is simply a mug's game in my opinion.

My mind is OPEN and I'll give plaudits where they are due. When Stephen Harper changed the rules on Income Trusts I gave him credit for doing it - and it wasn't fulsome praise either. He hasn't done a decent thing since and the record of the Campbell government is even more abysmal, in my view.

I could care less if people who can't support their views with anything but name-calling and nonsense go away. It's impossible to have a debate with such folks anyway.

Such people depress me too - and that's why I work hard to point them out and counter their views.

You could learn a lot, if you're new around here, by watching for posts by a gentleman called Ed Deak - he uses the label Fiat Lux.

It means: 'Let there be light'. People who spend too much time trying to be 'nice' have gotten this country into the mess it's in today - I'm not interested in sparring - I am interested in changing people's minds.

If you're looking for nice - have coffee each morning with your friends and talk about what was on TV last night and how great you all are because you’re supporting some noble charitable exercise. But don’t think that’s what needed to turn this society and our children’s future into something real and positive. If you're looking for a challenge - stick around.

Nevertheless, don't ever expect me to suffer fools gladly.

Recruiting

Watching your recruiting campaign GWest and I must compliment you.

Let there be Light, indeed!
Sorry, though, to hear that you don't believe in charity or arts philanthropy.

I've been impressed with the work, as you know, that Bill & Melinda Gates have been doing for sick children and I never looked on Gates as an exploiter, just a lucky and brilliant engineer with great timing. Although, I do prefer Apple's products.

I guess you've been too busy to go to Leona Helmsley's funeral.

Cheers.

Dear GW...

Hmmm... I will charitably assume you meant the global 'you' as in the 'have coffee each morning with your friends and talk about what was on TV last night ...... because you're supporting some noble charitable exercise' thing because, believe me, you are not describing me by a country mile. Somewhere in there is a West Side matron stereotype but although I live a long way from the West Sude, I have met a few of them, so must concede that you have a point.

You didn't ask but I am here because I am interested in other people and what they have to say. We can't possibly grow and learn, which I intend to do until I kick the bucket, unless we are open to other people's ideas. While I may not agree with some of the extremists who post on either side in this forum I will not lose my rag over anything as juvenile as an exchange of views. I'm tired of shrill. I was a rabid leftie in my 20s but at some point I started to mellow and see the middle ground. That doesn't mean I'm a vile person who has abandoned my long-held principles or lost all concern for the fate of others. It just means I came to see things from a different perspective. And I always try to speak to what I know.

I was afraid my plea for civility would fall on deaf ears and that I would be scorned for suggesting it. Before I scuttle back to the kitchen sink, I'd just like to point out that the dirty word 'nice' is more often applied to left-leaning folk than those who dress to the right. For example-- who do you think is 'nicer' Harper or Layton? Campbell or James? Giuliani or Obama?

OK... maybe it isn't working so well for them. Pity.

R/Man

Have you ever read about how Gates got MSDos in the first place? He didn't write it - check it out - you might change your mind about how brilliant and ethical he is.

And Gates is no engineer - he never graduated from Harvard...your research really IS spotty R/Man. Not that that matters of course.

Maybe you should go back and catch up some of the reading I posted for you a few days ago.

As for the Helmsleys, they're far more YOUR type than mine . Before the old man died and long before Leona went to the crowbar hotel for tax evasion, a reporter asked him if, since he was fabulously wealthy, he was going to start donating to any charity.

He answered: 'No. Why the hell would I want to do that?'

I take it you haven't read the material I posted previously - or understood my reasons for decrying charity - it's just something folks who've spent their life stealing and cheating do to help them pass the final exam they believe they'll have to take from St Peter don't you know?

Create a fair, equitable and democratic society where no one NEEDS charity. By the way, while you're using your Apple product don't forget that Jobs and Co basically stole the 'mouse' from XEROX. No honor among thieves.

I'm always interested to go back and read some of my business texts a decade after they were published to see how all the 'cutting edge' characters in the case studies have mostly had their reputations sullied with the passage of years.

vicki - thanks

Thanks for that. I got tired of 'nice' a long time ago...sorry. I try now for fair and frank and I'm glad you agree about the ladies who 'do' coffee.

I think it is better, of course, if these discussions can be kept at the level of ideas and facts but I think matters have reached such a state that people of good will who don't want to see this country turned into a cash register any more than it already is have to start speaking up and now – regularly and loudly. Far too many good people and too many children and families are been cheated so that the upper crust can eat caviar and listen to the symphony; far too few people can afford a decent home for their families to grow up in so that we can give tax breaks to corporate entities who are more interested in leveraging their fortunes into bigger fortunes than they are actually growing jobs and productivity.

But, don't get me started - if you did any radical analysis you must KNOW what's going wrong already.

There is simply no other way to do that - to engage people critically - as far as I can see - than the kind of thing I'm doing here (and elsewhere). The control of the media by the masters of the universe is so complete that one has to take advantage of every chance one has and the universities are being turned into trade schools where no one reads and few think any longer.

You might be surprised at the circle of people I've met and am now in regular contact with and working cooperatively together with as a result of a little more than a year and a half of posting here at Tyee - and they're all out there doing the same thing too in a variety of different ways.

Why do you suppose I ruffle the feathers of the neo-cons who do post here?

If they could simply dismiss me as a crank, because I didn’t have my facts straight and hadn’t done my research, they would.

Anyway, Best of luck, but I think it's too late for 'nice'. Glad you took the time to actually read and make an effort – I appreciate it.

And, you have to develop a thick skin - the posting guidelines don't tend to protect one's feelings all that much - though things are better now than they used to be here. I'm also working on a book, when I can find the time, about the first year after I decided to start posting to this site.

Gates

Oh how these discussions waft around this and that topic. Gates chose to drop out of Harvard as there was money to be made and back then it was a new gold rush.

And make no mistake about it - he is a highly regarded software engineer, degree or no.

He could quite easily have have sat on his fortune and given nothing; but he hasn't. I for one think he will transform many of the areas to which he is now giving because he not only gives money but also gives of his organizational expertise.

Are we not prepared to give him some credit (G West)?

Compare what he is doing to the handouts from our federal government - often to worthless projects- with little or no accountability.

In an ideal world (that does not and will not exist) yes everyone will have just what they need etc etc . Until then, I see nothing wrong with the new style corporate philanthropy as modeled by Gates, Buffett and others.

BTW, because you did not answer my earlier post, can I assume you agree that as unions become more powerful, there is the same potential for corruption as we see in parts of government and the private sector? Just asking.

jane doe

Because most of the work done by government employees (notwithstanding the tirades of the privatization set) either cannot be done by the general citizenry, or won't be done by the general citizenry.

The recent bridge collapse in Minneapolis is a fairly good example of cutting back on the kind of maintenance that public employees best do, in that it became evident that pigeon poo helped in corroding the metal. Regular maintenance (best performed by public employees over the long haul), in this case painting and inspections, would likely have prevented the collapse.

Most people are not looking for the quick buck (and I refer again to Nardelli's $200 million rip off at Home Depot). Most people are looking for income security, and the vast majority of people can only do that through the jobs they hold.

Regarding a bridge nearer to home, namely the Lion's Gate Bridge:

it may be better than nothing

I guess you'd like me to give a lot of credit to Cecil Rhodes too no doubt; and Andrew Carnegie...sorry - you're gonna have to find another sucker. Peter Singer has written an excellent analysis of the whole thing and he says it’s gonna take a whole lot more…
Let me know if you want a copy –

And you obviously don't know how Microsoft came to have the licence to MSDOS that was sold to IBM. The marginal cost of one of Billy's CDs is about .019 cents so please, don't try and make him out to be any hero.

I posted some information about the problem with the kind of monolithic aid that the foundation practices a few days ago - if you're interested you should still be able to find it on one of these threads.

I'd only like to suggest that if Microsoft hadn't been permitted to use its monopoly the way it has there would be no billions for Bill and Melinda to worry about - but there would be a lot of smaller companies competing aggressively without the predatory practices that Gates and his friends specialize in.

The new style corporate philanthropy is better than nothing but that's about all. IF the west and the corporate world hadn't robbed and enslaved Africans for centuries there would be no necessity to help them now. Furthermore, a lot of western do-gooders have also managed to steal away the professionals and trained personal from those countries to boot. Africa doesn't need charity - it needs the right kind of aid and neither Bill nor Warren (and his deal isn't as good as it looks if you'll study it a little more closely) nor Oprah are really allowing Africans to determine what they need. Instead of a holistic approach they want specific targeted results in a narrow area - such as a specific disease. While some results in such targeted areas may prove positive, it's ironic that general health levels and infant mortality have actually declined since the big boys got started. Check it out - Ghana is an excellent place to start.

I already told you that the most unionized countries are the most successful and competitive - check out the world economic forum - I posted the data some time ago.

You need to get up to speed.

Cheers

jane doe (the sequel)

Well, I do. I am in fact self-employed (and have been for 30 years). Anyone I hire is strictly on a contract basis, because I know I cannot offer job security. As a result, it necessarily limits the size of my business. Should I see an essential need to expand, then part of my business plan would be to have on hand more reliable help ("employees"). A concommitant part of that plan would be to offer production incentives, and job security, if my business is there for the long haul.

Your bagel maker had better have a superior product and/or a loyal customer base, if (s)he wants to take on the likes of Timmy's. Otherwise, (s)he is in the wrong business, or has to be content with limited production, and a one-person show.

jane doe (part 3)

Agreed! The so-called "economies of scale" only work when the profit margins are great enough to compensate for both reduced employee and management proficiency (The Dilbert Principle). Employees and management in small businesses are many time more effecient than in large businesses.

The greatest problem with governments and government unions, is that neither of them are dealing with profit and loss. There is a tendency to regard "the place that money comes from" as a virtual bottomless pit.
Put a yoke on government's ability to generate income, and we likely wouldn't be having this conversaton at all.

for G West & RickW

G west - CP/M morphing into QDOS then purchased by Bill G. and so on; but who cares. Yes he has a predatory style, much of the industry is unhappy with Microsoft's style but eh that is business in the big leagues; not for the likes of you or me to lose sleep over. But that is history, as it is in the case of Africa and as you know there is no time travel.

The question is how do we move forward to correct some of these situations in e.g. Africa.

Most efforts undertaken by government as I said are ill thought out, poorly managed and ultimately fail to move the ball forward very much.

Someone like Gates will achieve positive, measurable results.

Your idea of an "holistic approach" though healthy sounding, can mean scatter-gun, unfocused and wasteful. As far as measured results of general heath and mortality there are many factors playing into that equation. I trust you are not suggesting that large scale efforts by Gates, Buffet et al could contribute to this decrease in general health.

Rick W - my comment was in reference to postings by G West - so please ignore that.

Anyway as you mention job security, let me comment on this:

"A concommitant part of that plan would be to offer production incentives, and job security, if my business is there for the long haul."

Do not try this at home, I cannot imagine your pockets are anywhere deep enough. That ridiculous concept is only for the likes of CUPE going after an employer they believe has unlimited amounts of cash.

This idea that Library

This idea that Library worker's jobs are "sedentary" is nonsense, contradicted by the facts. The fact is that many Library jobs are physically demanding, the incidence of repetitive strain injury among Library workers is notoriously high. At the Victoria Public Library workers will physically lift and move at least 1,500 TONS of books over the course of 2007 for example, just to get the returned books back to the shelves. Actually we will lift that weight of books several times over.

Did you think the books picked themselves up and put themselves back on the shelves, all in the right place? Sorry to disillusion you!

When you borrow a book downtown and return it to a branch in Oak Bay how do you think it gets back downtown? Someone lifts it and moves it several times, that's how.

And the workers who do most of the lifting and moving get paid less than ten dollars an hour despite a decade old promise that Victoria Library workers would be paid the same as City Hall inside workers, who actually earn from three to ten dollars an hour more than Library workers. And we have had a signed pay equity agreement since 1992!

Signed by both parties, but never funded to the extent originally agreed to.

MSDos and Mouses

Bill Gates bought DOS from a guy in Seattle who wrote it, outright, for about $50,000. He was already negotiating with IBM about a PC deal and needed an operating system. He licensed MSDos to IBM and the rest is history and profits. DOS is like the special olympics compared to a real OS like Un*x, Linux, Solaris or BSD. It is no accident that the toobz mostly runs on real NOS's (like Apache). It is inconvenient to have to reboot web servers everytime the memory leaks accumulate or the system freezes.

Some engineers at Xerox were experimenting with Graphic User Interfaces and the Mouse, but Xerox wasn't interested in pursuing either development as they couldn't see the point. So Jobs and Co. were only picking up where Xerox dropped the ball. Gates and company basically put lipstick on a pig or put a GUI on top of DOS to try and catch up with the elegance of the early Apple/Mac personal machines.

Predatory practices are what keeps Microsoft in court all over the world, except in the US when the ReThugs are in power and the Justice Department becomes an adjunct of the RNC. I think Bill has met his match with China, the place where over a billion people think pirating software or anything else is just a normal business practice.

Rick W part 3

I agree with you regarding governments and their various unions not having a profit and loss view. I think however we could demand more accountability from our government, after all we, as tax payers, are the shareholders of this province/country, but unions are a whole other dynamic.

Historically they have been champions for some worthwhile changes in labour law and for fairness in wages, but now it is going off the rails in places.

Case in point with the current CUPE stand-off, CUPE is demanding a "no layoff " clause - no matter what the circumstances for 5 years. That is ludicrous, and no employer should ever capitulate to that. Also they want no "contracting out". Again it should not be in their sphere of control.

And why do high tech workers earning upwards of $80K belong to a union like CUPE - what do they need protection from - the taxman.

cheers

Thanks koot -

Teddy Roosevelt would have known what to do wiht them.

Anyone who can write this:

and accept it with alacrity is really just saying 'Yahsuh, and how high do you youse want me to jump?'

These people are deceptive thieves and they need to be brought to heel by the actual citizens of this country and the United States. Anyone who can see him or herself as nothing more than the 'likes of me' is speaking only for themselves and not the rest of us who are sick and tired of being victimized and rolled over by compromised global 'citizens' like Bill and Melinda Gates who have been a part of the greatest transfer of wealth from the many to the few in the history of the world.

Give me strength.

Why not just throw up your hands and apply to the Gates foundation for a little help - you've given up jane doe. And that's a shame.

Let me know if you want the Singer article.

And go check out those other links

It was part of a discussion I had with Realisticman who was taking essentially the same position relative to philanthropic billionaires that you are now. Just as unsuccessfully and in the face of the actual facts.

No it wasn't unsuccessful!

A young doctor nephew of mine had just returned from a month, at his own expense, working in Malawi where he was delivering babies and administering to the sick. He told me, unprompted, of the unequivocal successes of the Gates and other US foundations efforts to help the sick, including virtually eradicating new cases of malaria. GWest dismissed him and them!

Be prepared Jane, this is a jungle with lots of unhappy campers, especially when wealthy philanthropists are mentioned.

Ode to Vicki

GWest you topped yourself again! I had to switch off Madonna singing 'Material World' and put on the Pointers Sisters doing 'Smooth Operator'.

Reminded me of those cafés when, I'm sure you too, smoked Gitane's and nursed a cappucino as you sweet talked the girls about the terrible state of the world and, yes, she probably thought about those things too. And you seemed so concerned and intelligent. Compelling in a different way. You're still doing it!

Great line! Stockholm Syndrome in flashing colours!

Yeah, man. Right. You think though, don't you?

Hey Vicky, ask to meet Alciabides, he's a character! Sits on his knee and has a one-click jaw. Has been known to thank GWest although they're one and the same avatar!

He's the real deal! And he's right, they're wrong and he proves it all the time.

It's tough in his crowd but you can handle that, can't you Vicky?

Oh wow, GWest, you're a writer too? What's it about? Will I be in it?

Well, essentially, from what we're told it's a tightly edited cut-and-paste job of Tyee scribbles. Be interesting to see if Alci's in it and under what category; straight man?

One last thing Vicki, don't express too much joy in life in BC; things is real bad and people known as Harpo and Pee Wee are all to blame, plus, of course, those to the south.

ROTFL....

Oh realisticman, what a talent. You had me at compelling. Thanks for a really good laugh.

A breath of fresh air R-man

Thank you R-man - that really clears up the rules for me. So the good guy, bad guy stuff looks like this:

Big business - bad

Big union - good

Privatization - don't mention

Charity - bad

Big charity - really bad (must have stolen something along the way and are now looking to give just a teeny bit back )

Government workers - underpaid saints

Campbell/Harper - fascists?

BC economy - worse than 3rd world

Bill Gates, Oprah - or in fact anyone with a net worth more than $5 - bad

US - don't get me started

5000 page publications by some left wing nutbar - really really good to the point that it must be forced down the throats of the unwashed.

Dr Day - the new satan

So I think I can work within these guidelines.

Thanks again R-man for opening my eyes to this jungle

10 out of 10 Jane

You will receive a Gold Star.

I didn't think you needed a primer and you have confirmed it.

It's fun to see what some people are thinking, 'though sometimes a bit sad to realize how staunchly negative some can be.

Glad you liked it Jane. You're too kind.

Should be a beautiful day tomorrow. I hope we all enjoy it.

Cheers!

Nothing Vicky...

...could give me more pleasure than to make an intelligent woman laugh.

Thank you.

Like I said - you need a thick skin

As usual, unable to make a single valid argument on the facts realisticman resorts to his normal ad hominem practice. Has he told you yet how all British Columbia's health problems are a result of union members jumping queue lines?

No!

I didn't think so.

Has he acknowledged the fact that Care no longer wants American tied aid for Africa or told you about the equivocal results of Gates Foundation aid as laid out in his favourite publication - Foreign Affairs?

No!

I didn't think so.

Has he told you about his favourite columnist Neil Reynolds and his adoption of a country of 300,000 people in the middle of the North Atlantic as a new model for Canada?

Has he mentioned how much he loves tax cuts for business even though the facts show that such cuts actually increase the inequality in a country?

Has he told you how sad he is that his young friend can't afford to do anything but rent in Vancouver and yet he's unwilling to admit that the current economy is a farce in terms of the best interests of 80% of the population who'd like to live here?

I didn't think so. Realisticman is much more likely to tell you about his globe trotting friends - working their way around the world and landing in Thailand as global health tourists? Has he told you how much 2.2 billion dollars in Indian health tourist contributes to the well being of one billion Indians and not just the few elite professionals who run these hospitals?

Has he told you how scornful he is about global warming and how he dismisses the effects of high altitude flights by international jet-setters like himself and his rich friends? Mentioned his theories about how to solve the problems of Canada's aboriginal people?

Has he acknowledged that the two most anti-Union countries in the west - the US and Australia - have had the biggest declines in the economic results in the last report of the economic council?

I didn't think so.

Instead he prefers to play little games and misrepresent the facts about what I've said and done. Well, no problem. If you happen to be interested in actually learning the facts you can find them here: http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

I think you might also find out there how upset R/man was that someone might actually make some money writing a book about their experiences posting to a place like this.

He really isn't much of a capitalist after all and he hasn't sustained a single argument successfully in all the time I've been reading him here.

Nevertheless, he's not a bad guy despite the fact he's an extremely poor sport! I will admit that once, at the very start of our ‘relationship’ he did manage to correct me on the definition of a single word that did not happen to be in my Shorter Oxford Dictionary – he has the full version. Other than that – not a single hit for at least a year.

jane doe

That's exactly what is happening. In the narrow local areas where Gates sets up his clinics results are positive but the population in many African countries is widely dispersed. Before Gates started these programs medical personnel used to travel outside town and village centres to bring health care to the wider population in more distant hamlets and villages.

Now that care is being centralized and concentrated, coverage of the rural areas has deteriorated and infant mortality in many of these states has actually increased. It is simply a fact.

You don't have to believe me, you can investigate it for yourselves.

Another really critical problem for health care in Africa arises out of the way big foundations 'do' aid in that they tend to want to concentrate on one particular disease or medical problem - it's easier to get measurable results and meet goals doing that and it fits the Western paradigm nicely - but it also tends to draw the indigenous personell away from a concern with broader health parameters and involves them in much narrower program of addressing a single disease. African doctor/patient ratios are already very poor and this concentration (along with the fact that Western societies have tended to poach African docs rather than increasing the size of their own medical school classes) is leading to a worsening general health situation.

Rather than funding specific clinics and programs, the funds should be used according to the needs and priorities of the Africans themselves.

Thank Jane Doe!

Thank you for providing the List!

Now I too, like you, IAMClueless, R/Man, the Man with One Nut, Mabel and Mr. Reality_Bites can when confronted with any issue, just consult your handy, dandy list and save thinking for enjoying the "Best Place on Earth" created by Gordon Campbell and his under appreciated minions.

My head was starting to hurt from all that now unnecessary thinking.........

I would love, but doubt I will be awarded a Gold Star. Just livin' in Gordo's paradise is enough for me!!!!!!

RM

wealthy philanthropists

Can you name even one who did not bludgeon his way to the top?

http://www.utne.com/issues/2007_143/cover_story/12743-1.html

Jane Doe

for G West & RickW

Such a rich bounty in this post!! I must C&P and muse on it for a bit.

Thanks!

Jane, Jane, Jane

Do not try this at home, I cannot imagine your pockets are anywhere deep enough. That ridiculous concept

Then, in the best tradition of the free market, you stay small or get out. I stayed small. Because I have a talent that others like, I did not have to get out.

Regarding business plans, are you saying you do not believe in them?

One other point

just for you Realisticman, there's an interesting column in the Times this morning about your latest hero, Sarkozy.

I wouldn't want you to miss it - there aren't that many people around as blindly hungry for power as he is - definitely one of your people - and another globalization monster.

It's not behind the subscription wall either.

Enjoy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/world/europe/24france.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

The link should stay current till the end of the month.

By the way, I hope you were sufficiently impressed by the activities (on Harper's and the RCMP's request no doubt and certainly with their acquiescence) by the actions of the Sûreté du Québec. How these neocons can appear in public with a straight face and actually pursue the premise that they care for anything except their own selfish interests after that outrage at Montebello this week is beyond me.

Lie, cheat, steal, obfuscate and now engage agents provocateurs to make your opponents look bad and, more to the point, violent is beyond me.

Every honest Canadian must be blushing. Can we possibly sink any lower? These are the people you love and cherish R/man. I suggest you need some new heroes.

ignorance and self-indulgent blindness reign

No request having arrived in my inbox, I think adding jane doe and vicki to the rogues gallery will be fine koot.

And vicki, this which you posted yesterday:

- given what's happened since - was obviously a howler on your part. So I'll thank you for the humour and remember that
your ...plea for civility...wasn't so much scorned by anyone here as flushed by your own attitude.

Although I do agree that there are a lot more 'nice' people on the left side of the spectrum...as you and janey and R/man have proved pretty much beyond question.

Former B.C. Lottery chief

gets $600,000 in severance:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/08/23/bc-poleschuk.html

Without cause, eh? Not doing your job is good enough to get the prols fired, without severance. But not the exec level.....where you get rewarded for being incompetent.

So let's not hear anymore of this "five guys standing around watching one guy shovelling" BS............

What did I do?

I wasn't laughing at you G.West, just at R'man's literary skill. We all need to lighten up. Laughter is good for the heart.

Has he told you G West

Thank you G-wset for that run down on R-man.

I knew he was wise and certainly witty, but clearly we have only seen the tip of this iceberg.

His talents obviously go much deeper.

Listen up posters, clearly a breath fresh air is sweeping the board.

That sweat sickly stench of nihilism will soon be gone.

Enjoy a lovely Vancouver day

jd

Rick W

An explanation

My post where I quoted your post referencing "job security"

My point here was referencing the totally ridiculous demands that unions put on very large organizations, usually governments organizations, namely "job security"

It can mean a whole raft of things but if you follow its trend line the ultimate union objective here is jobs for life.

In the current city strike CUPE wants a guarantee of no layoffs for the length of the contract "no matter what the circumstances". This is a case of job security gone way too far and I hope our governments have the balls to knock it on the head.

Anyway back to your company, right now you have contractors, paid by invoice so life is simple. But looking down the road when you expand and get a couple of employees on the payroll could you afford to give them a guarantee that "no matter what the circumstances" you will not lay them off for 5 years. Chances are your contracts with the client are for 3 months.

So 3 months of revenue and 5 years of payroll - I think your accountant will be trying to get you to change your religion.

And this is what a lot of people on this board fail to realize - government is just a big company it has revenues and it has expenses, and that expense bucket is not a bottomless pit.

Anyway I think I have just failed to adhere to my new set of posting rules that came to me after reading a very nice piece by R-man

Soon for my postings I will take off these rose coloured glasses and slip on a pair like G West wears - you know that kind of murky colour you got when you were a kid, and mixed all your paints together

kootcoot

welcome aboard.

I hope you enjoy the clarity you get from stopping all that "thinking" - a very noble and Buddhist approach to enlightenment.

PS
No you are not yet gold star worthy, but I will personally ask R-man to give you a bronze.

jane doe - no stars for me thank you

You've clearly proved koot's got you in the right line-up. Anyone who accepts R/man's version of reality without actually checking up on him and says he's funny to boot is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for entertainment. Your profession of being open-minded didn't last long either. Wait till you read a bit of IAMC’s wisdom. You may regret which side of the boat you’re pulling on at that point, or flattax – he’s a dandy ally and I can think of a few others who don’t seem to come round much any more.

Do you want the information on philanthropy (Singer article) or do you prefer to remain in the dark on the 'realities' of aid - government and otherwise? Once again the address is:

. Funny thing though, R/man never really cared enough about the issue of endemic third world poverty to reply either. I always thought that was a little strange – I mean for someone so concerned with learning and expanding his horizons – a world traveler, so to speak – and one with influential globe trotting friends. Curious.

That bit about bottomless pits is pretty much lost on someone who has been watching the current bunch of corporatists and business-friendly folks you seem to love who care a lot more about rewarding their friends, building unnecessary roads to nowhere, turning agricultural land into parking lots and paying $10,000 per month to former cabinet minister Graham Bruce as a 'consultant' to the Cowichan in their run up to the Aboriginal Games.

Without even touching a wide variety of other details concerning exactly how much BUSINESS loves the Campbell government.

All very business friendly stuff. As for small business, for the most part they're honest and hard working; the problem starts when they put on those rosy glasses you and R/man love so much and start seeing themselves as masters of the universe too.

And by the way, if you can't handle the reading material required to actually understand what's going on in this economy - I seem to recall a complaint about this: 5000 page publications by some left wing nutbar
, so I'll arrange for a junior version you should be able to handle if you like. And, before you dismiss that particular report, you might want to investigate its veracity a bit. The Globe and Mail did a close analysis of it and couldn't find a single flaw. You might want to watch (if you ever do decide to stop calling people names) who you're calling a nutbar too.

Things like that, you'll find - as has the R/man, have a way of coming back and biting you in the ankle - which is why the toughest term I ever use for folks like you is neo con or neo liberal.

If you're not going to end up with a goose-egg in the win column like R/man's you're going to have to do a lot more than hurl insults.

Which is clearly all you're interested in today: enjoy your tea - or coffee, as the case may be.
And have a lovely weekend.
Cheers.

Dear G West

I do appreciate all your references to this and that report but I'm afraid I have been around organizations and statistics for long enough to know how the metrics can be selectively chosen to support a particular case.

I have noted a not insignificant anti-big-business tone in your postings, so, I don't mean to be rude here, but I suspect your sources.

Do you have any reports from perhaps a national medical association, the New York Times, the Economist or maybe even the BBC. Sorry the Globe and Mail is disqualified.

I understand where you are coming from, its a kind of "anti-business faith" and within this faith it would be blasphemy to credit Gates with anything positive.

I am not a follower of this faith and so I have the clarity to look at Gates both as a ruthless business man, but also as someone that will make a positive impact on the world.

Here's an aside:

If you hate big business so much why do you choose to use its tools, computer, cell phone, networks etc etc. Why don't you boycott all these products of this clearly evil empire

As you can see I still haven't put on the murky glasses, and so this is perhaps why their is a disconnect in our communication.

Or maybe it is just that, just like a shrewd politician, you ignore my points that you have trouble dealing with and cherry pick the one that is a springboard to your favorite mini-lectures.

Quick summary of some topics from previous postings that might be difficult for you:

1)Union workers putting local businesses out of business by shopping at Wal-Mart

2)The real cost of labour once you add back all the benefits, vacation, flex days, plus the real big one Defined Benefit Pension Plan. (2/3 best 5yrs + indexing)

3) Why no small business could ever offer a "no lay-off for 5 years" regardless of circumstances yet this is being demanded by CUPE

4) You say you are in support of small business even though it wasn't long ago that the big unions managed to cut them out of bidding for government contracts

I will give you a clue about the union workers question - it is because they are greedy (human nature - fear/greed - very strong emotions) If they could swap with Bill Gates they would do so in a flash, only difference is I don't think they would give away billions.

So all is not well with union workers and their big unions but I assume you will have to brush over this embarrassing fact and hop over to your comfort zone.

Do have a nice week-end

Special Interests

I find it amusing how evil are "special interests" when they are the interests of the common working people, especially if they have to form a group (ie union, if I can use that evil word) to express those interests in a manner that anyone will even notice.

All this crap about how terribly difficult it is for a city to offer some job security is just that - the stuff that falls behind a male bovine creature. It's not like Vancouver is going to disappear before the end of a five year contract.

The question is though, will they have the garbage picked up by people who can afford to live in Vancouver or will they contract out. Perhaps with labor shortages that can reverse "outsource" and get foreigners on temporary permits, living in urban camps, working 12 hours per day, seven days a week and getting 100 bucks a month to send home after paying room, board and transportation out of a special sub-minimum wage only legal for aliens.

Meanwhile, business, and ESPECIALLY big Corporate Business is guided only by the purest of motives that would make Jesus himself look self centered and outright greedy by comparison.

I don't really care if anybody that thinks like jd, R/man, flattax etc. has a decent weekend at all, so I will skip the smarmy "Have a Nice Day" + smiley.

How about paint ball shooting in say - Iraq?

Sorry

That just won't cut it. If you haven't got hard data to support your views they are just yours and no better than anecdote - exactly why I never use any of my own personal experiences to support my arguments. My experiences my professional qualifications what I do and specifically where I live are completely insignificant - just like yours, they are simply irrelevant - just as R man's nephew's experience in Africa is.

In order to make a logical case for any point of view you have to dump the personal impressions, forget the emotions (and the dirty work under the table - the laughing and the nonsense) and concentrate on the facts.

By refusing to read the report all you do is demonstrate your stubbornness. I read everything - pro and con that I can get my hands on and I let that form my views - not some emotional extrapolation from a personal experience that is quite possibly narrow and completely influenced by my own prejudices.

When you have actually read that report and understood it - perhaps then we'll talk.

Until then, no more anecdotes and personal impressions - I couldn't care less - they are meaningless.

Religion

I can't remember just who it was, but whoever it was said that:

Religion is the only thing that keeps poor people from eating the rich.

Quick question GW

Does your last post suggest that people who are uneducated or who rely on abridged sources like Reader's Digest or 24 Hours, or only have the time and money to access the mainstream media can't have a valid opinion on social issues? Is forming an opinion solely to be the bailiwick of academics, intellectuals and people like us who have time on our hands, research skills and access to a computer? I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound elitist, but it did.

Jane Doe - rebuttal 1

Not much different than the payouts a CEO gets. I refer to Poleschuk, formerly of BCLC;
And I refer to Nardelli, late of Home Depot, now of Chrysler.

There is a difference between begin laid off and being fired. A contract specifying a certain length of time is entirely reasonable, during which the employees represented by the union can be certain of employment, providing they fulfill their contractual obligations.

And because realistically, I cannot guarantee potential employees job security, I do not choose to expand and risk that.

Not quite. Governments, unlike comapnies, can increase their incomes without increasing production or quality (unless you want to count big oil and big pharma).

"The City has set a time

"The City has set a time limit of Wednesday August 29 at noon, for CUPE to respond. This time limit reflects the City’s desire to end this strike quickly, yet provides CUPE 15 with enough time to review the options, and consult with their membership, if they choose."

No wonder the strike continues. With an arrogant attitude such as shown here how can anyone negotiate with these idiots?

Negotiations can only take place rationally between equals. Such silly dominance games have no place in a labour dispute.

I'd be tempted to fire a letter back saying the union would give it's response on August 30th at noon and not before.

However, I hope the CUPE Negotiators in Vancouver have cooler heads than mine and don't take that advice and do get back to the table in spite of the employer's supercilious attitude.

Value of Opinions

Vicki, an opinion is only worth the quality and accuracy of the reality-based information it is based on. If one's information sources are limited to the National Enquirer and Entertainment Tonight say, that person's opinions will be of little value.

To allow the GlowBall/Canned West empire and the news they CHOOSE to share with the spin they like to apply to be the basis for your decisions is like letting TV commercials determine your dietary choices. In the first case you get the government you deserve - in the other you will probably die early from obesity and cardiac disease, thus freeing up limited resources of our planet for other wiser people - who, most likely, both eat a healthier diet AND leave a smaller footprint on our earth.

Wow K/C...

Are you saying in all seriousness that most people in our world are dumber than a sack of hammers? What about the poor and the disenfranchised, do you cut them a break on the old factual 'you have to read both sides before you can come to a reasoned opinion' thing? Sounds a bit simplistic to me. Tell it to the uneducated protestor in Myanmar who has experienced inequity first hand but has never read a book. Protestors who take to the streets in countries like Bangladesh have no education but who can fail to be moved by the depth of their emotion and passion? That's what brings down governments. Emotion and experience is at the heart of everything human. That's why perception is more important to politicians than reality.

Koolcoot is wrong again ! (1/2)

Logic ... and facts and refrences! Where are yours? Maybe you should heed your won advice!

YES! And I state from a book written by 2 professors (Mismatch) that single women NOW make about the same kinds of salaries what men make. Are YOU stating that I am wrong?

You still haven't said anything, who are the professors, where do they teach, what do they teach - who published THE BOOK. It's still just an anectdote.....

I am surprised you do not want me to provide you the ISBN number! You are joke!Anyone with some brain and efort (which youy seem to lack) could find this information! Let's see how samrt you are?

(because it actually means that YOUNG SINGLE women are doing pretty well financially nowadays and cannot wine and dine like they have been doing.

If they are doing so well, why can't they wine and dine like they have (or had?) been doing?

Yes! They cannot wine and dine like they have been doing SUCKING money from men because I am stating that the 71% stats is errorenous!! I KNEW YOU WOULD NOT GET IT! Now that men and women know that these women arwe doing pretty well, men are not going to take the nonsense from feminist nazis anymore!

Oh! I see! NO ONE can dispute Ms. Griffin-Cohen's statements or stats because she is an "authority" on all matters related to her field of expertise unless one is an expertise

I didn't say Ms. G-C stats or statements were indisputable, I merely pointed out that they have a certain degree of credibilty backed up by HER NAME and POSITION etc., unlike your ANONYMOUS PROFESSORS that perhaps teach in the University of Your Imagination for all I know.

Oh! Come on! Anyone can Google this and find this book! Are you too lazy or too stupid?

Koolcoot is wrong again! 2(/2)

Are you stupid or what? Anyone with an ounce of intelligence and impartiality would recognize (as my professors have acknowledged many times) that I am learned and well educated! On the other hand, you almost never substantiate your statements with valid arguments, which proves that you are not well educated!

That is YOUR view! My view is supported by a refrence, which you seem not to be bale to find! Or, are you too lazy? Is anyone who does not hold the same views or believe the same stats that paint women as victims a Bush lover or a moron? What is your IQ? Capitalism is the problem, not Bush or Reagan or Harper or the women who marry them for some shopping dollar!

I am posting from another country! USE YOUR BRAIN, for heaven sake! Can't you think outside the box, the Vancouver box? And, again, your claim that I cannot spell is unsubstantiated, as usual!

Busy, busy

Sorry West, old chap. Don't blow a gasket. I was working until just a few minutes ago. You know, work for myself, self-employed, no vacations, benefits, sick days or pensions. Not even a bloody tea break! Have to pay those taxes and all those bills, you know. My assistant was upset. Apparently, while was heading up from the station an able bodied crack-head asked her for money for food. She offered him an apple and he snarled back that he had an apple. Can you imagine?

You say,

R/man never really cared enough about the issue of endemic third world poverty to reply either.

It's been a busy week and I apologize for not taking up your offer. It's been a while since I was in India, Africa or Inner Mongolia and perhaps I've not thought about endemic poverty enough; especially living in the Best City in the World. As I'm sure you've been chatting about and toasting all day.

http://economist.com/markets/rankings/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8908454&CFID=16415879&CFTOKEN=94552766

To answer your question I would just love to read a lengthy tome on endemic poverty, although I may have a meeting with a client tomorrow and I have been invited to go sailing. Depends on the weather. I was also hoping to catch up on the growing pile of New Yorkers and I just last week picked up a weighty Robert Hughes book that I really want to make a dent in.

As that well meaning young man is quoted as saying, 'the poor will always be with us', so thanks a million for thinking of me but I should probably take a rain check, although I have my fingers crossed for sunny skies.

GWest, it's not right that you should continually dismiss my doctor nephews pro bono work in Africa. His heart is in the right place even if you think we should let them sink! It is distressing revealing how you vigorously flog your notes on 'endemic poverty', with the supposed objective that we all be engaged, yet you belittle and discount completely a young man who stepped up entirely at his own expense and actually did something tangible.

Yes Vicki there is a Reality

Passion, smassion - that's fine Vicki, but jerkin' peoples emotional chains doesn't necessarily accomplish much of value, except when it's done by someone like Karl Rove or Lee Atwater. If the uneducated person who has suffered inequity first hand was the most likely to effect change, the less developed and less educated peoples of the world would be sailing on the yachts and the more educated but passionless (except for when in proximity to money and power ) chain jerkers (the current masters of the universe) would be digging the trenches for minimum wage.

By the way, how are they doing in Myanmar at disposing of tyrants? Not so well I guess, so much for uneducated, unorganized passion. You are right that politicians try to appeal to the baser instincts and less rational side of the electorate. That's why Karl Rove has been so successful at making people worry that two guys might be married next door so much that they vote for Bu$h and Cheney and don't even notice or care that they (Bu$hCo) and their cronies are robbing the US Treasury and most Americans blind and killing the evironment and thousands of people daily.

Kinda reminds me of the Soup Nazi and his Crime Family that operates out of Victoria............

New IQ Estimate

Well since Mr. Reality_Bites has generously shared this information:

I am now able to revise my estimate of the collective IQ of the population of British Columbia upward by 2 or 3 points.

The Soup Nazi should be scared, very scared as the probability of the BC Lieberal government being re-elected will respond inversely to the intelligience level of the electorate.

No, Jane doe

It means that people who say things like this:

and the other nominal nonsense you posted yesterday in an attempt to be witty are a dead giveaway for something else entirely.

But, you're a clever person, try and figure it out for yourself - especially after the other things you posted the day before.

A little intellectual dissonance, let's say.

If you can't spell "intelligence", Koolcoot, ...

Quote:

I am posting from another country! USE YOUR BRAIN, for heaven sake!

I am now able to revise my estimate of the collective IQ of the population of British Columbia upward by 2 or 3 points.

The Soup Nazi should be scared, very scared as the probability of the BC Lieberal government being re-elected will respond inversely to the intelligience (sic) level of the electorate.

But, at least, "I" CAN spell INTELLIGENCE, NOT SO Koolcoot !

1ST, I HAVE WON THE ARGUMENT many times over as you have conceded every points I have made so far by not offering anything INTELLIGENT that would contradict every arguments I have made! The bottom line is ... if you cannot argue, don't!

2nd, when you make a point stating that you believe someone not to be intelligent, I would think it is INTELLIGENT to substantiate your argument! That is INTELLIGENT! I think they teach this is grade 6. I rest my case!

And, what is your point anyway! People outside of BC cannot post here? Let's see what other kind of stupid aSSumptions you are going to make! And, BTW, still have not found the book Mismatch? you know, not so Koolcoot, you might learn something, reading books that are not on the feminists' best (and censured) books' list!

And, BTW, I have never stated that women do not have legitimate demands. If you read my first post in a cool and collected manner, you would understand that I believe women are sometimes being shafted (as when women lose seniority and experience during maternity leaves). On the other hand, the 71% quoted by the professor is neither referenced nor is it accurate!

The point: I am not the right-wing monster you are trying to paint me to be. Your ad hominem attacks are indicative of the kind of person you are! Probably a troll!

Maybe, Koolcoot, you should spent a bit more time doing a few introspections, instead of claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is a lunatic.

and you realisticman

I already told you I don't denigrate your nephew's efforts although I would like to ask if the clinic where he worked also maintains a program of pre-natal treatment for seropositive mothers and provides chemo– prophylaxis or treatment with medication (AZT) at a minimum by the 14th week of pregnancy, then performing delivery by Caesarean Section with no subsequent breast feeding. I wonder if he's aware that it is possible to reduce the risk of prenatal transmission of HIV from 30 to 80% and often better - something that's quite rare in Africa. Sometimes just delivering babies isn’t enough…you don’t happen to be the only person with a relative in the medical business.

If you’re looking for more ‘real’ information about Africa, I couldn’t recommend anyone better than Nick Kristof at the Times…

At the same time, as I told jane doe, I think 'personalizing' these debates is a very bad idea - it leads to nothing but ad hominem attacks and sniping. I'm not in the least - as I told you before - interested in denigrating that young man for doing something he believes in. Furthermore, it's entirely appropriate that you be proud of him. But, it's equally fair and valid for me to say - on the basis of reading a lot more than the Economist - that despite all the good intentions (including those of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett) - things are still going quickly backwards in many parts of sub-Saharan Africa. It is going to take a lot more than a few young doctors like your nephew to reverse the tide in Africa and anyone who pretends otherwise is, in my view naive. I have a nephew who did his PhD on the history of imperialism in Nigeria who spends months there annually on a regular basis…since the discovery of oil in the Delta things there have gotten progressively worse, so too in many other parts of Africa - so it’s not just Gates and his friends who aren’t coming up to expectations. And, in the end, it’s my strong belief that Gates’ company – had it been taxed properly and prosecuted for monopolistic practices when it should have been – well, you get the picture – I don’t believe the end justifies the means – sorry – having robbed consumers for years the subsequent act of giving away some of the proceeds is REAL tokenism and perhaps a lot worse.

That's all I ever said. Moreover, you know it if you’re an honest man When you personalize things the way you so frequently do all it does is reflect badly on you. As for your latest snark attack, if you read the small amount of personal information I posted yesterday - and promptly got slammed for it - you'll see why I think its better you keep your sailing plans to yourself. I think you'll like the Robert Hughes book - is it Things I didn't know?

Sanctions Coming?

GWest

I presume we can expect sanctions from the union bosses for the SQ members involved. If not will other unions react?

Misspelling Works Well!!!

Naow that I'ave reeded yuer most recent diatrbie and victory dance above, a sample of witch is Beelough....to whitt:

I will try to inklewd as many spelling and grammar errors as possable. Triggering your last couple drain sells to misfire and start typing tied raids will hopefully lead to early carpal tunnel 4 U, which would Ephectively shut you up.

Instead of reading 5000 page nutbar papers, you might spend your time more constructively reading about such fascinating subjects as how to make nouns and verbs agree, past tens, prescent tens and fewture tens. Then the murky differentses between singular and plural could probababably occupy a great mind sutch as yours for at leest fiveteen minniutes.

Reading your Tied Raids is like listening to GeeDubya speak - the awesome leaps of logic, or more accurately the total absents of logick.

Congratulations on your massive victory, don't let reality bite you in the butt.

So you were impressed

So you were impressed by pee wee's commitment to free speach and the right of citizens to protest what they believe is wrong-headed?

Unions had nothing to do with this my friend...this was your philosophy in action - No longer is it necessary to make any distinction between pee wee and the Paul Martin/Chretien Liberals. They are all exactly the same and none of them are real democrats.

Sad that you can't see what that means - anyone who fails to speak out against this kind of abuse is, from my analysis, excusing it.

- Sanction the proper People Please -

Good ole R/Man outs the truth much to Gavin's disappointment with:

Do you understand either what you are saying or what actually happened? How about sanctions for the management level officers of SQ and/or the political masters who "master" minded this transparent attempt to marginalize and discredit peaceful protesters exercising their "RIGHT" to peaceable protest. I hardly think the SQ members' union ordered them to play the role of "violent" protesters.

The Canadian Cynic suggested that David Coles (protest organizer) should lay assault charges against the rock wielding police agent provocateurs as a means to find out just who they were and who sent them.

I think Cynic has a good idea

As long as Coles enjoins the folks up stream of the cops as well. Wouldn't it be pleasant to see the Harpocrit answering questions in open court - or in a public inquiry, a la Gomery?

He doesn't care much for questions from a free press and he can't abide an informed populace; but he might feel less inclined to spin like a top when sworn in and under threat of a contempt verdict.

The sight of Stephen in chains would be almost as rewarding as hearing that George Bush was going to be impeached.

Impressed

Anyone who thinks that a directive to the SQ officers came from the PMO is dreaming and if the union bosses say nothing about the conduct of some of their officers it's revealing.

I can relax now!

Now I know who to blame for everything, and here the answer was right under my nose being repeated ad nauseam by R/Man.

That terrible day in Dallas in 1963 - the unions did it. September 11, well it wasn't al Quaeda or Saddam Hussein - it was the unions. Where did the WMD's go? The unions have them!

So now to solve ALL of the world's problems all we need to do is let Padilla out of jail with instructions to set off his "dirty bomb" at the next AFL-CIO National Convention. Why couldn't I think of that, sooner?

Isn't that what grievances are all about?

The boss tells you to do something you shouldn't do, so you legitimately bring forward a grievance. If the rank and file are concerned that this was a directive that was followed and has now discredited the members a grievance process could explore where the directive originated.

A new theory of everything

Start at the top R/man - and try to remember Jean Carl and Jean Chretien and the APEC cock-up. It's not the cops who are the problem it's the way their political masters use them.

How can a man of your mature years be so naive?

I suppose Jimmy Hoffa's directing all this from a secret suite in Las Vegas too.

C'est incroyable cette histoire!

war games

r-man....the directive likely came from a more southerly source to the PMO's office.

As ever, upon hearing the directive, the not so talented but ever-obliging Mr. Harpurr (meow) eagerly salutes.... and clearly aroused by the authoritarian nature of the order he excitedly dons his favourite flak jacket, pulling madly at the buttons to stretch it round.... all the while humming a few bars of "Oh Say Can We See". (Well, maybe he has more talent than I give him credit for).

Then it's just a matter of having the necessary phone calls made.

Insubordination

Insubordination is really a common tactic and works quite well (NOT!) when used by "employees" whose jobs are in "para-military" organizations. Is there anything you don't hold unions responsible for R/Man? If only unions were as powerful as you like to claim...........

Fess up R/Man, you da one dat disappeared Jimmy Hoffa ain't ya? huh?

U got me purring Lynn!

Excellent, Harpurrrrrrr, GeeDub's lap kitty. You've outdone yourself this morning, pat yourself on the back a couple times from me.

R/Man

And Hong Kong reporters always seem to write nothing but happy stories, with absolutely no "directive" to do so from "above".......

Time to sing another tune, n'est pas?

I hope that we learn

where the directive originated. It would be surprising if the fiercely independent SQ listened to the PMO. This would be big news in Quebec. The RCMP were running the security and the SQ operating on their own turf. Hopefully we will find out who in the Quebec force approved of these tactics and what did the RCMP, which along with the Quebec provincial force policed the summit knew about the strategy? When looking at the garb the SQ officers were wearing it looks as though they looked at the Québec APEC video and dressed accordingly, not realizing how out of place they would be.

Well, I'll just say this about that

The 'explanation' by the SQ spokesman, M. Savard, and the government spokesman, M. Stockboy Day, seems to be changing pretty rapidly. And this :

Neither Insp. Savard nor Mr. Day would say Friday whether the RCMP, which was in charge of security for the summit, gave the Quebec force permission to deploy undercover officers. Mr. Day said that information was "operational details that I don't get into."

Interestingly,
"After a news conference in Vancouver, Mr. Day said he would not deter police from using such tactics.

[source G & M]

sounds a long way from an unequivocal denial. In fact, it sounds like an admission to me...

Not to mention several other glaring inconsistencies in the various stories that are seeping like a bad smell out of Ottawa and Quebec City.

You can follow up here:

http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/

If you're interested.

Only rememeber that this is the 'same' Prime Minister who called responsible democratic protestors 'sad' on the first day of the SPP chinwag and, further, that this is a Primie Minister who is so afraid of actually having to answer an unscripted question that he has, for all intents and purposes, silenced the Ottawa Parliamentary press corps.

And that business about the SQ acting independently...sorry R/Man, you don't know a thing about security protocols when the American President is in country - it just ain't so.

As Lynn points out above, the most likely place to look for responsibility for the hand with the rock in it is in the US of A...acting through and with the consent and cooperation of the PMO.

Dead eyes tell no lies...and pee wee's eyes are as dead as ever.

Koolcoot: ... much ado about nothing!

You sure have lots of time to write posts about nothing at all.

Again, you are demonstrating a great aptitude at criticising my English or my stats, but you do not back your posts with supporting evidence. It is much ado about nothing from Koolcoot. I guess this is an admission (by omission) on your part that I am right. Is admitting that people are right and you are wrong too difficult for you?

Regardless, I think more people are interested in content rather than form here. Again, your last post does not deal with cores issues. My last post about your inability to write "intelligence" was a cheap shot, I will admit that, but then you seem to relish in that, yourself. Wasn't that an exercise in futility?

I am surprised that a person of your intelligence would not be interested in being enlightened by posts that not only provide a different point of view, but facts that are referenced. Instead,

You might want to consider acknowledging points that you agree with (or your mistakes) rather than just focussing on the ones that you disagree with, even if they provide you with stats found in the US census by 2 professors, as found in Mismatch.

Why can't you handle moderate views? Why do you argue about stats that are referenced and provide a more balanced view of things? Are you afraid of views that are not extreme or sensational?

1ST, I HAVE WON THE ARGUMENT many times over as you have conceded every (sic)points I have made so far by not offering anything INTELLIGENT that would contradict every (sic) arguments I have made! The bottom line is ... if you cannot argue, don't!

I will try to inklewd as many spelling and grammar errors as possable. Triggering your last couple drain sells to misfire and start typing tied raids will hopefully lead to early carpal tunnel 4 U, which would Ephectively shut you up.

Instead of reading 5000 page nutbar papers, you might spend your time more constructively reading about such fascinating subjects as how to make nouns and verbs agree, past tens, prescent tens and fewture tens. Then the murky differentses between singular and plural could probababably occupy a great mind sutch as yours for at leest fiveteen minniutes.

Reading your Tied Raids is like listening to GeeDubya speak - the awesome leaps of logic, or more accurately the total absents of logick.

Congratulations on your massive victory, don't let reality bite you in the butt.

Ado 'bout Nuttin'

reality_your_cheque_is_in_the_mail sez from his undisclosed by happily non-BC location....

He's got me there, as I have been responding to his assertions posing as thoughtful informed posts - thus "about nothing at all."

G West

I don't think they are concerned at all about "glaring inconsistencies".

At the (secret) meeting in Banff in the spring:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2006/09/21/secret-meeting.html
Stickwell (aka Doris - 500,000 people can't be wrong) Day more or less said, "What meeting?"

But, we seem to wandering about 90 degrees off topic............

Rick W

You're right of course, but what's a fella to do - from Friday afternoon till late Sunday this playground has no new topics to discuss so I think we could be forgiven if we take the beast a few metres off the beaten track.

I agree we're pretty good at pointing out the problems but not so effective at mobilizing the ground swell of public anger needed to get the masters of the universe to pay attention.

They know a few games and a little smoke and mirrors are usually enough to capture the public imagination. Some bits of shiny glass, the odd blanket and a bottle of hooch...Does wonders for the mood.

Sound familiar?

Not to worry...

kootcoot, re: your "GeeDub's lap kitty"...well done - purrrfectly put.

And not just any ol' lap kitty but one with stone cold dead eyes, as G West aptly notes - trailed by Doris of Stickwell (thanks Rick W - this is definitely a group effort ;-)) in charge of somethin' called "security".

They stand on guard for thee and me.

How can Canada go wrong?

Resting on your laurels

OK time to wake up again guys. Back in town, in time to catch your wonderful self congratulatory prose:

"I agree we're pretty good at pointing out the problems but not so effective at mobilizing the ground swell of public anger needed to get the masters of the universe to pay attention."

Don't thrash yourselves too hard for your lack of achievements; it is tough to create revolution from your armchair.

It's also tough to gauge a public sentiment when one spends 24/7 attached to an information system spiraling down the abyss of mis-guided socialistic discourse.

By the way to be truthful to your anti-business "masters of the universe" paradigm - you need to avoid the accusation of hypocrisy - you should start communicating by carrier pigeon. Keep using these high tech systems and you are putting money into the hands of Cisco, Intel and, god forbid, Microsoft.

Also, not wanting to rush to judgment here but, I fail to see how well you are defining the problems.
We have a serious problem of too much union power, making demands on an economy, that maybe OK now, but that at times is often fragile.

Your union brothers have to be prepared to take some of the pain when things start sagging, and unreasonable guarantees way into the future (no layoffs for 5 years - no matter what, a la CUPE) are grossly unreasonable.

Your problems seem to stem from the fact that you have encased yourself in a self-righteous, self serving idealogical straight-jacket.

I suspect your heart is in the right place but you are propping up old and outdated ideas of the "working man". I talk to a lot of contractors and they spit bullets when they talk of being shut out of government work by powerful unions.

You may think you are helping the average Joe, but Joe has moved on; you haven't. And do you really think that city workers in the high tech field need your help when they are making $80K.

Perhaps it's time to get out of the armchair, make your way through the endless piles of dusty studies from like minded souls, open the door and take the pulse of society. Its a lovely Vancouver day.

Do have a nice one

Oh I don't know

It's pretty hard to make a point with someone who doesn't read the actual evidence while blithely turning the volume up to RANT on the compromise with reality meter anti-union meter. Which seems - since you always come back to that issue - to be about the only burr under your saddle.

I trust you didn't follow up on the information about unions and success from the World Economic Forum. Not that I'm surprised - no one as adverse to actually investigating the conditions you seem to think you're an expert about deserves to be taken seriously. As pointed out earlier - in your own insulting and ad hominem words.

And I notice you still haven't provided an email address so I can send you Singer's article on philanthropy. Again, no surprise.

How come? Too comfy in that armchair throwing brickbats? I thought you were the person who was interested in civil discourse. Apparently not.

Guess that was just another example of empty hyperbole.

And, while you've still got a nice hate on for the unions, try reading this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html?ex=1188792000&en=6852d3d4e209cd1e&ei=5070&emc=eta1

I don't think you'll find too much "union involvement" in that 'success' story and maybe you'll find something a little more significant to worry about than the fact that some union worker actually takes home a big enough pay packet to afford a house in a decent neighbourhood. I think you can only get so far on jealousy and resentment and that's pretty much all you've served up so far.

Like most of the folks in the masters of the universe category - and the ones who worship them - all talk, no substance.

The Corporate Queen Bee

What is really making demands on our economy is the privatization of the world. The only real economy is the environment which Fiat Lux has pointed out here many times. The rest is just smoke and mirrors. Nature itself is the real economy - this very fragile and very human world depends on it for survival. That's really all we've got. The limited bounds and bounty of this earth.

Sadly, the corporate colonization of the world views the environment as an unruly obstacle that must be overcome - one that stands in the way of ever-increasing profit margins. It views human beings... and the unions and social services that are needed to live life with a measure of human dignity in the same shameful way. All in the name of ever-escalating profits. Exorbitant profits. Privatization has upped the corporate profit margin to now devastating impact levels on our little planet earth. Profits that ring as hollow and as empty as the people who believe this is all life is about.

And that is really what all the union bashing and blame is really about.....ever-increasing greed and the so-called need to bring in foreign workers, worker bees to supply cheap labour for the growing hunger of corporate Queen Bees. The threat is: If working men and women won't kowtow we'll bring in workers who will. And they are scouting the world for cheap labour, an up-dated version of the slave boat emblazoned with the corporate logo, that's all - for workers here and in foreign lands.

The words of poet/novelist Michael Ondaatje in his novel "The English Patient" bears heeding:

"From this point on in our lives, we will either find or lose our souls."

I think that was me....

.. who wanted cvil discourse.

I did write requesting a copy of your Singer clip but I ended up checking it out myself.

For those who don't know what we are talking about, Peter Singer is an Australian philosopher who has written extensively about ethics and animal rights. I didn't know he had written on the issue of philanthropy. The NY Times piece GWest references is interesting and can be found at

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/magazine/17charity.t.html?pagewanted=7&ei=5088&en=d6f0816437c8c2af&ex=1324011600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Singer's conclusion is as follows-- and it is a serious indictment of the way the world works:

For more than 30 years, I’ve been reading, writing and teaching about the ethical issue posed by the juxtaposition, on our planet, of great abundance and life-threatening poverty. Yet it was not until, in preparing this article, I calculated how much America’s Top 10 percent of income earners actually make that I fully understood how easy it would be for the world’s rich to eliminate, or virtually eliminate, global poverty. (It has actually become much easier over the last 30 years, as the rich have grown significantly richer.) I found the result astonishing. I double-checked the figures and asked a research assistant to check them as well. But they were right. Measured against our capacity, the Millennium Development Goals are indecently, shockingly modest. If we fail to achieve them — as on present indications we well might — we have no excuses. The target we should be setting for ourselves is not halving the proportion of people living in extreme poverty, and without enough to eat, but ensuring that no one, or virtually no one, needs to live in such degrading conditions. That is a worthy goal, and it is well within our reach.

After reading the article I felt I was left with three moral choices, which is one more than I thought I had.

to do nothing and give nothing because I am greedy and selfish and have no interest in other people;

to do what I can and give what I can afford, even though I understand that the system is imperfect, that few will actually be helped and that it will do little or nothing to change the socio-economic conditions that caused the sickness and poverty in the first place; or

to sit back and castigate the rich for not doing enough (even though the law of averages must mean some are genuinely trying to make a difference with their philanthropic efforts) and actually feel morally superior about doing so.

Oh there are other possibilities Vicki

One of them was the promise the G8 made when last they met in Scotland, in Edinburgh I think..I believe that was in 2005 and since which not a single partner there with the possible exception of Great Britain - has attempted - even made a effort to keep.

The kind of funds transfer Singer describes as possible is only going to happen when the nations of the West - who've profited from keeping the poor in penury for centuries - actually stop giving tax breaks to the rich and begin the kind of payoff that Singer describes.

Promoting further disequilibriums between the rich and rest of us here in Canada is a very poor way to address the problems here and it's even a less satisfactory way to solve the poverty and lack of development in the third world.

Last time I checked my hotmail your request hadn't yet arrived. I'll check it now and send along a word file of it if you're still interested. I wasn't aware it was available except in the Times archives.

Sorry Lynn.....

.....but rightistas don't want to hear the "limit".

Koolcoot, ... answer questions instead of dodging them!

Again and again you show your inability at explaining yourself. Again I ask you why is it a crime to post from abroad? Why is it a crime to state facts that single women and single men make about the same kinds of salaries? Why is it a crime for you to admit that your attacks were unfoounded? Why is it so hard for you to respond to questions?

buzzzzzzzzz

Lynn I agree with point about the delicacy of nature which is after all our spaceship, and we have to respect it.

But the population is hooked on products and the consumer not only places more and more demands on suppliers but also is constantly searching for lower prices.

Add to that the fact that man (and woman) is basically greedy and will use his buying power to reward the lowest cost supplier and penalize the highest.

So the natural outcome of that kind of consumer behavior is that the local baker, potter, and shoemaker struggle and possibly goes under, while all the big box stores thrive.

And so we have concentrations of corporate power seeking to be the one that supplies that insatiable consumer. And like drug dealers, if one falls there is another one to move right in.

I personally do not like concentrations of power, whether it is corporate, government or union. I would like to see all three diminish in size.

So I cannot sit by idly while the G west's of this world point at only one of the three as being the source of all evil.

Government competes unfairly with private industry in many sectors. Unionized construction workers compete unfairly with non-union workers.

We are not talking worker bees here, or cheap labour from some other part of the world, but ordinary Joe workers that do not like the marketplace being tilted in favour of some group is able to bully government into giving select access to work.

Anyway if the consumer used their buying power wisely they could trim those large corporations down to size very quickly; but I doubt they will

GW... on philanthropy

I am aware of the broken G8 promises. However, as a responsible society, we cannot and should not leave everything to governments and NGOs. Like it or not, the private sector has an increasingly important role to play. And I believe we may be at a tipping point.

The following is a link to an article by Dr. Abraham George of the Wharton Business School. George has the juice: he is the founder of The George Foundation, an NGO performing humanitarian work in India, and wrote India Untouched: The Forgotten Face of Rural Poverty.

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/india/article.cfm?articleid=4114&specialid=1&CFID=1824805&CFTOKEN=37907590

George believes that handouts will not solve poverty, nor will it be solved by grand government initiatives or piecemeal efforts by NGOs.

Quote:

Instead, poverty will be solved with vibrant economic activity driven mostly by the private sector. The hundreds of millions of new jobs that are needed each year will come mainly from corporate business ventures in rural areas. The developmental strategy to address poverty must embrace this reality. A market-based approach to poverty reduction will result in income and wealth creation, and lay the groundwork for the next generation to avail of a wider range of opportunities with enhanced resources.

I think he makes a very good case.

How About the ISBN Number?

Mr. Reality_Biter......

Which MisMatch are you mismatching?

This one

Mismatch:Why Our World No Longer Fits Our Bodies: by Peter Gluckman - Professor of Paediatric and Perinatal Biology and Mark Hanson - Professor of Cardiovascular Science

MisMatch by Lensey Namioka the novel for young readers grade 6 to 10 about
"Suzanne Hua, a Chinese American, and Andy Suzuki, a Japanese American, (who) meet in their high-school orchestra, their white classmates see them as a good match (Aren't all Asians the same?)"

You are hardly worth responding to anymore, who said anything about posting from abroad being illegal? I only said I was glad you aren't in BC, because I am.

I don't agree

If this were true, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. The private sector is only interested in getting the most product it can for the least amount of economic outlay - rather than solving poverty, the capitalist system as it is presently rigged is creating it, and making it deeper and more entrenched. For every swash-buckling free-enterprise honcho in China there are several tens of thousands of peasants who are significantly less-well off today than when they lived on the land in rural China; the same is true in every country where the globalization miracle has spread.

This, simply, isn't true:

NO: Poverty will be solved and should be solved by each society and culture having the basic tools and resources to live in the way they choose to live - not as pawns in some industrialists dream. When the west goes into a third world country – whether it’s for oil, or gold, diamonds or uranium, molasses or bauxite, it is not the people of that country whose needs are respected. Ever.

It didn't work during the first 'gilded' age around the turn of the 19th century and it's not working now. We in the west won't grant most-favoured nation trading status to poor countries for the commodities they can provide us with...instead all we're interested in is having them toil in factories making consumer garbage...

I'm sorry, that formula sounds and smells far too much like slavery to me.

It hasn't worked in the past, it isn't working now and it won't work in the future.

And we certainly don't help our own country when we imply that organizing to obtain a living wage is a problem. What is a problem is that few enough citizens have any effective way to pursure the quest for a decent and reasonably comfortable life. Here, and elsewhere.

My view.

Still in the ideological straight-jacket

So Westy if you ever hit the streets to march, then march against people demanding $40 DVD players, or people that buy cheap imported pottery when there is plenty of local potters trying to hack out a living, with no one to fight for them.

We can all work towards putting large corporations out of business - don't buy their products.

Slimming down either government or unions is a much more difficult thing to do; much is the pity.

You're a bright man G, tell me why in a dispute between government and union the anarchists from downtown choose to pour garbage at the steps of a wheelchair bound person with disabilities, and yet choose not to do the same at union headquarters.

Are you really sure about which groups you want to tie your boat behind.

Well Jane Doe

First of all, if you think calling folks names is an effective way to start a real conversation I'd say your tactics are close to being on a par with the people who dumped garbage on the mayor's doorstep. Which action was not, in my opinion, a very sensible way to gather support for a campaign against the horrendous problems of homelessness in Vancouver; any more than your inflammatory tone is likely to encourage me to be patient and understanding with you.

However, I believe there's a large and growing fund in the city's budget to cover the costs of an Olympic 'party' and since the situation in the DES is pretty obscene too...perhaps the protestors thought that (given the city's failure to live up to its undertakings relative to housing initiatives) 'garbage' was an appropriate response. And it’s hard to deny the mayor is at the centre of his utterly phony “civil city” charade given those facts now isn’t it?

Relative to two other points you've made:
1) the actions against the mayor has nothing to do with the union so I can’t imagine why anyone would dump garbage at union headquarters; and
2) the fact that the mayor is handicapped has absolutely nothing to do with it. I can’t imagine why you’d bring it up.

As to linking my boat anywhere, I don't know what you're talking about. I think all workers ought to make a decent wage - that's all, and I support anyone who tries to attain that goal - as the city workers are now doing. More people should have strong unions – it leads to more respectful treatment from callous employers and, according to world wide data, as union penetration increases in an economy, that economy runs better and is more productive, competitive and profitable for all its citizens.

As for the strike itself, I think it's a difficult argument to sustain the view that this is not Sam's strike and that negotiations have been handled incompetently by the city and its representatives.

After all, Sam Sullivan is the one who made the 39 month contract/olympics connection and every other district has already settled...it's tough to see how you can put the responsibility anywhere except at city hall.

Finally, if you expect to be treated with respect you might want to think about the tone and the words you use. So far you've provided not a single iota of fact to support what I'm beginning to think are simply prejudicial ideas about other people.

I don't want, by the way, to put anyone OUT of business - I just want everyone - and every corporation - to pay an appropriate rate of tax.

It took me 15 seconds to find this book.

You seemed to have difficulty finding this book called Mismatch. It took me 15 seconds to find it.

Google:

amazon+mismatch+gender

(amazon being one of the largest online bookstore)

So, you are glad that I don't live in Vancouver! What? You cannot handle a healthy debate? It is not because someone has different views than yours that you should not hold a healthy debate with them or hate them! Are you going to call the police next for harassment (pretending that you are, of course, an innocent bystander)? Do you ask them to apprehend people whose views you do not like and ask them to drive them out of Vancouver or beg them to jail them? Dictators do that, you know! Listen, I know you are perfect and your clones would be too, but what a sad world it would be if all people thought or behaved like you. Believe me, Koolcoot, you are not always right. Be strong and admit it, sometimes! It is called maturity!

On the other hand, I am relieved to know that you are at least openminded enough to contemplate reading an abstract and/or the whole book Mismatch. You might be more intelligent and less radical than I thought.

My Last Comment to Bouncing_Check

You are the inspiration for the Homer Simpson phrase Doh! or the exclamation duh!

If you were interested in sharing information with me you could have told me the NAME of the authors (or even one of them). But you aren't interested in anything but being a wise ass and THINKING that you are scoring points, cheap points at that. Don't expect to hear from me again unless you surprise the hell out of me and actually say something worth responding to.

You rant on with:

I'm glad that you don't live in BC (not Vancouver) because one less fool is always an improvement. Why would I call the police when it is so easy to just ignore your inanity, as I shall be doing now? It's too bad that your brain doesn't seem to work properly, especially when it comes to logic, but hey rant on. I might not even to bother perusing the spew from you,there being many more useful things to do with my time.

G West

The private sector is not interested in long-term planning. Or rather, the investors in businesses are seldom interested in long-term returns, and rather than risk losing investment, companies cater to quick returns, the antithesis of planning. I call it investor ADHD.......

Privat sector not interested .....

I don't know where your knowledge of the private sector comes from, or exactly who you believe it is but your statements don't ring true.

I'm in it, and have been for many years, and I can assure you that planning is a key part of growing any business.
A silly situation exists now in big business where they constantly try to beat earnings numbers to placate stock analysts, but that aside they plan and they track to plan, otherwise they go under.

Just an observation, I note you haven't quoted any article that the viewer must read in order to comment on your note, so expect a tongue lashing from messrs Gwest

Jane Doe- don't be obtuse

It is clear that RickW is referring to investors and corporate planning that rarely looks beyond the next quarterly statement and its effect of the stock value. He EVEN bolded INVESTORS to point that out.

Frankly corporate management often doesn't even really care about actual profit and loss as evidenced by the windfall profits earned by executives while they drive their corporations into bankruptcy. Ken Lay and his cronies did quite well thank you while Enron crashed spectacularly and its employees and stockholders were losing in many cases their entire life savings and retirement funds.

Tongue lashing???

Au Contraire Madame. I see you're familiar with most of the techniques of rhetoric - fine ways to avoid actually providing some empirical evidence for your beliefs but not particularly effective when you're engaged with an interlocutor who knows all the tricks in the book.

The point is, you haven't really thought out your objections to union members utilizing the levers of power in ways that entrepreneurs prefer to have reserved exclusively for their own use.

Like most business owners, when things are profitable you'd like to take all the credit and most of the cash and when the business climate turns from rosy to incarnadine you like to have ready access to the pink slip with no strings attached.

Why do you think unions were formed in the first place? Did you think they were just than social clubs?