Nicely summed up, Chris Bouris. There are actually many more comments about the Tofino situation on another thread here. It's too bad this 'story' seems neglected in consequence.

I thought that's why God invented the dipstick...to gauge things....and not re-incarnate them as politicians and bureaucrats.

Seems to be a very predictable problem involving a gutless local elected council that didn't even think of trying a rain-dance.

Heard this story breaking while in the hot dry BC Interior, none of which had a potable water shortage that I was aware of ...

As the saying goes " without vision the people perish".

True leadership would have avoided whatever politics are often involved...stated a serious water shortage looms,(ie read the long range weather forecasts and use the "original dipstick") and planned accordingly far in advance.

Vancouver Island and especially the Ucluelet and Tofino areas are beautiful, ....personally been there a few times ...and have obviously built up quite a tourism business.

Too bad that bad news travels much faster than good...hopefully the entire town will unite, re-group take charge and recover from this sad yet predictable fiasco.

I feel the blame that is being put on John Fraser's shoulder's is totally inappropriate. Afterall he is not God and has no control over the weather! He is a part time mayor who has only been on the job for 8 months. There's nothing he could of done to prevent a water shortage. His decision to shutdown businesses was to ensure that local residents would have water for their needs. Chris LeFevre, a Victoria Businessman, is only interested in his own business operation, not the people of Tofino.
If there is a positive to be taken out of this unfortuate situation it is that the people of Tofino, including Chris LeFevre, will learn to use every drop of water wisely. Hopefully that lesson will extend to other parts of Canada and the world so that we can postpone future water shortages?

The dipsticks are the businessmen and developers who want to turn the area into a zoo. THe town should definitely unite and change its development policies. No more monster homes on the waterfront that are occupied less than 4 months a year. No more tourist havens that don't contribute to the local economy in a sustainable way. Increase the size of the National Park and send the free-booters home. There are enough coney islands around already.

Moosebeer;

I agree that the mayor (and council )can't control the weather,....

However, the entire council , including the mayor, should have had the insight and vision to foresee the crisis point far in advance and thus plan accordingly.

Instead, a motivated citizen stepped.

Chris Lefevre is not doing anything illegal...he runs businesses in the area...and has effectively done something the Council could have or should have. He could just as easily said " I will deal with my interests..water for my businesses only....too bad for the rest of you " but he didn't, he instead shared it, knowing its in everyone's best interests .

Problems like this are all too predictable, yet the Gov't fails the people who trust and empower them to look after their interests. Again no blame if there is no rain(great if one had the "power" to do otherwise)...but the issue was will we have enough water..???? If not, what do we do to access some water through other means .....but no contingency plan was in place...

The shit was going to hit the fan regardless...but it gets worse the longer you leave it....thus address it sooner.

Totally boggles the mind...unless this was a cheap political stunt to create a crisis to serve future agendas.

The former mayor of Ucluelet shared some surprisingly frank comments about his neighbours in Tofino on Thursday (CBC radio). Apparently government in the town is a farce with one special interest group after another seizing power on council. He said they have been unable to get anything done for a generation. Ucluelet offered to share the costs of accessing Kennedy Lake however the various bickering lobby factions in Tofino shot down all ideas. They even stopped expansion of their existing reservoir on Meares Island because it would require a few trees to be cut down. Classic stuff.

Since practically anyone who owns residential property up their has made a killing on land values over the last few years I hope the Province pushes them to pay the bill for this fiasco. They're rich. They can afford it.

Chris Lefevre is probably a hero to his fellow business men. No surprise there. Let's see if he'll pony up any more $50 grand brown bags full of dough for a new school or hospital now.

Self interest isn't much of a barometer of human feeling or community consciousness.

It is becoming apparent there is a battle going on between the residents of Tofino who want to limit growth and the land developers who's sole interest is "profits".
It should not be the businessmen who live in Vancouver who are dictating public policy in Tofino. That should be for the local residents to decide. But all to often these outsiders grease the palms of the council members in order to get development plans approved while the locals have very little say other than to elect a new council which evitably make the same decisions as the old council. It seems that all governments are working for the business community rather than the electorate. The residents of Tofino need to find some way to get a moritorium put in place on future developments to put a stop to the neverending "cut and build" philosophy of Vancouver businessman before your community becomes the next Whistler. Then it would be much easier to manage the water supply.

You said it Moosebeer! and I second it - actually I think I may have said it first on the 'thirsty' thread - but no matter. Good luck getting most people to understand.
Cheers.

That’s a fairly naïve viewpoint Moose/GWest.

- the residents of Tofino are some of the wealthiest people in the province. Have you seen property values there? Placing a moratorium on development looks like an attempt to guarantee their property values more than an attempt to protect green space.

- why should a small number of people be exclusively given the right to own in fabulous places like Tofino? I’d love to own something up there one of these days and there is still a fair amount of room for reasonable growth (yes, sustainable development can work if idiots are not elected to city council who confuse zero development with sustainable development). Sustainable development can easily work in Tofino and other parts of the province. Hell, they get baout four meters of rain in Tofino each year - only a fool could not manage that.

- and by the way it is businesses who create jobs and pay taxes and fund the health care system and our other great safety nets in this country. If it was not for entrepreneurs showing some initiative to get things done then the Canadian cozy lifestyle would collapse.....especially if left to the Green lobby and similar clowns.

4 meters of rain a year, that is over 12 feet. There is no water shortage. Cut the trees down, hoes and dumptrucks, deal with it-bigger resevoir. For fuks sake, stop the whining, its is not that big of a deal. Left Foot is the voice of reason here.

Pas Left Foot...one of the more successful ad campaigns is what you say about the contributions of business to jobs and taxes and whatnot. It is a part of the effort to convince us all that business creates wealth, and everyone else is a burden being carried by business.

To me, though, business entities exist to accumulate wealth, not create wealth. If in accumulating wealth a business creates any goods and services it's because we have laws, regugulations, customs and expectations that say,'If you are going to collect wealth in this community, here is what you have to do in return.' Business entities, especially out of towners, try real hard to maximize what they take in by minmizing what they put out. (Local business types are the ones who put resources into community because it makes the community better. Out of towners do so only for a return)

They usually need labour, but, as with the push on to bring in 'guest workers', they try to minimize what their labour costs are.

You've likely guessed that I lean toward THE CORPORATION (book...I haven't seen the film) view of business entities.

If the people of Tofino had no idea there was a water shortage, they should all check into an assisted living institution. Let's face it: it's not a big town, and that information should have been available to anyone who was awake.

Maybe folks should have been coming together before to find alternate sources of water. This is not a new phenomena on the coast. If Vancouver has problems maintaining water in the summer, why wouldn't Tofino?

Beating up on the mayor wasn't nice either. Apparently he was elected to protect them from themselves.

This NIMBY ism reminds me of the Enviro-zealots who are into such alternative energy pources like wind mills.

Apparently, some of the best sites for wind powered electrical generation are smack where their own cabins/homes are.

Shouldn't be a problem... right ??? We start installing them tomorrow...don't mind the 24/7 whirrrrrrr noise.

Saw the 6 o'clock news tonite, and the real contrast between the two towns...I guess it does matter who is in power.

I'd choose Ucluelet. Sick of glazed yet psycho "eat the rich" looks in Lefties eyes.

CLIMBER: as usual the voice of no Bullshit reason. Which of the two towns does David Anderson have a Cabin in ..the one with the sewers or the outhouse ???

Re trees to cut down....in our own cities tree bylaw debates ...someone stated that younger trees are far more active and productive in creating a healthy environment, the older tress less so.

‘And by the way it is businesses that create jobs’....blah, blah, blah.

And a lot of those jobs are created with tax breaks that corporations get from a compromised government in Victoria through check offs on overtaxed workers and low income slaves. Do you honestly think that $50 G's from the Victoria businessman would have been slapped down in the middle of November when all his tourist haunts were empty if a crisis had happened then? You think for a moment that this has anything to do with the permanent residents of Tofino?

Give your head a shake!

As for the wealthy landowners in the McMansions built in Tofino during the past 15 years - how many of the folks in those mausoleums live in Tofino all year round? It's the little people who wash the dishes and flip the burgers and pick up the garbage that I care about and I hope they have a chance to build a decent place and a home where greedy free-booters from away don't bid up the price of property so high that the little people end up as wage slaves living in the kind of dormitories that dot the landscape around Whistler.

Give your head another shake! This isn’t about community – it’s about profits, greed and self interest.

Hey M'sasquatch, don't waste your time with the documentary THE CORPORATION, it was very weak. I was left with the impression the writer/director had absolutely no common sense and no understanding of the real world (he's spent too much time in academia). The story does not separate the people behind a corporation from the legal entity itself. It is people who are psycho, not corporations. If psychos end up running corporations then bad sh*t happens. If altruistic people run the corporation then it can be a force for good.

On that note, GWest seems to live in this fantasy land where all corporations are collaborating with Victoria to exploit and oppress the masses. A bizarre Marxian view of the world. It is quite quaint and kinda endearing really. Reminds me of when I was 17.

As for the businessman who kicked in $50K for Tofino water, all that publicity did more than boost his business, it seems like the start of his political career in the town (you know there are going to be a few jobs on council available soon!). The guy apparently has some savvy and pragmatism which the council is definitely lacking. They could use him.

Passaglias Left Foot
THEREFORE, I guess you're not in favour of tax reform. You want to continue with the social welfare thing for corporations and cut out help for the poor and downtrodden. Your hero from Victoria/Tofino will be deducting the cost of that 50G when he does his corporate taxes for fiscal 2006. There is no free lunch and he's no hero.

17 year olds do see the world more clearly - they generally haven't been corrupted by greed and blind self-interest to the same extend as we jaded adults. They also hope, mostly naively, for something better from their fellow men and women because they haven't had the snot kicked out of them comprehensively.

Spare me!

I did not see the movie, I read the book. I had already been interested in the relative power of a human citizen and a corporate citizen in our legal and economic spheres. I have thought that we have been drifting toward a system wherein (to exaggerate a bit) we have an aristocracy of corporate citizens,and a serfdom of human citizens. I thought, and think, that a lot of the politics and llegislation being pressed in corporate globalization seeks to put this two tier system into government backed regulation...with corporations being held accountible for nothing.

I've been in various organizations wherein I was speaking and acting on behalf of the whole organization. Often (like, more than half the time...I lost a lot of them)I said and did things for the organization which, if it had been my decision alone, I would not have said or done. In an organization/corporation, those who best speak and act for the corporate interest tend to rise. Rebels, individualist, loose cannons do not. So there tends to be a clumping at the decision making level of people who will represent the corporation...not themselves. If the corporation's main purpose is the bottom line enhancement, then the people who best achieve that will make the decisions. Those who do not, will not be there.
I think that (Bakan?) is right to suggest that a corporation works on a different ethic than does a human individual. That's why some people in corporations feel such stress, trying to balance the ethical position of their corporation with their own ethical position.
The decision makers are not psycho, they are the ones who have shown that they will serve the corporation.The ideology that allows this is like that of the lawyer who knows her/his client is guilty, the person does what is best for the corporation. It's like a duty.

A democratic organization tries to keep it all open and above board, and the actors/spokespersons for the democratic organization do what they have to do, even ifthey disagree with what the consensus or amajority ahs decided.
However,a business corporation tends to be anti democratic, very secretive, claiming that privacy (like the privacy of a human citizen) protects them. Shareholders are squeezed out of the decision making.

So, as you say, bad s* happens,usually in the dark...the more altruistic happens in the light,in the open. To me business corporations are the former, and more so the more distant and large they are.
Again, I'll suggest that altruisms from business usually comes from smaller local business entities...the Big Brothers sponsors, minor sports, shelters, and so on.
The big boys do it just to get out of paying property taxes.

Left Foot:

Of course, if you do not SELL your property, you DO NOT realize a "killing". Instead, you GET KILLED by increases in property taxes, based on some theoretical value (who knows what any property sells for until it's sold, huh?), and the municipality threatens to seize your property for back taxes, and you are screwed over if all you wanted was some little retirement property in some little backwater to live out your days. Beleive it or not, not everyone is a land speculator...........

PS If the residents in Tofino kept voting down "improvements", perhaps that was a signal that the municipality shouldn't have approved the virtual unrestricted building in the first place......?

Is anyone here seriously suggesting that
what's his name (I refuse to use his real name and give him any more publicity) with his 50G play to the cheap seats was doing anything other than feathering his own nest?

C'mon people, get real!

I'll believe it when he gets engaged in municipal politics, starts showing up at municipal council meetings and takes a stand on a lot of tax and community issues that don't necessarily impact on something in his narrow self-interest.

We've seen this pattern before - many times!

Yep Sasquatch, I've seen that phenomenon as well in large corporations where people do things they think the CEO wants. The tone set by a CEO makes a big difference in the behaviour of staff and managers. But not for everyone.

And yes, 17-year old adolescents have a sharp moral compass. But they're not always right and tend to make some gross simplifications of situations.

And gee RickG, I'm really sorry to hear about those million dollar property owners who now have to pay an extra thousand bucks in taxes on their wealth. It's breakin' my heart. They can pay their fair share like everyone else! Why should wealthy property owners (who did nothing to earn their wealth except perhaps get lucky in the selection/timing of a place to live) get a tax break?! And if they really can't afford it they can take out a little deferred interest loan until they sell (they have enough equity to do it).

PLF:
Did you know that 90% of prize winner in game shows in the U.S. do not collect their prizes? Reason being, the IRS wants their CASH before you can take possession of said goody. Most people who win these things cannot come up with the scratch, and they cannot sell the winning to do so, until they can come up with the scratch.

So you bought a property in 1970 for $40 grand, and retired on it. You paid like zip for poperty taxes, and you intend (ed) to spend the rest of your days doing a Huck Finn. THEN, someone says your 40 grand property is worth a half million (or a million and a half), and your taxes are now more than what's in your bank account, and more than what you bring in,in CPP, et al. So you get foreclosed on, and no more Huck Finn.

So tell me.....what do you have against the Little People anyway? You know, the ones who don't want to play in that game..........? Who just want a place to live? Who did

except be there?

Do you have a problem with someone just kicking back and enjoying life away from (what they thought at the time) the rat race?

Do you hate your neigbours that much?

Do you believe that individuals should be able to live on their own terms, and out of anyone else's way (as in a democracy)?
Or do you believe we should all live in lock-step, kowtowing to THE MAN?

Lets try to look through this donated $50 G of water issue through another set of lenses.

Problem = NO WATER????

Why???

Smart Vancouver Lawyer sees a strong case for a Class Action Lawsuit...A good case that Tofino was negligent...this has been a problem for years and the potential for water shortages was well -known. A civil suit is based on the balance of probabilities, and an easier winnable/provable legal benchmark.

Under Local Gov't legal liabilities... one apparently has 6 months to file a claim .

Various Ma and Pa businesses(ie evil capitalist economy rapers) had gone under in the aftermath ....Like Christmas...every business has its peak time of year...in Tofino etc. likely the Summer and Labour Day. I'm not interested in the misdirecting unconstructive Leftie rants ....these people were here LEGALLY...and have reasonable expectation that the taxes they paid should provide the Gov't services they paid for...

Case goes to court...Plaintiffs win..its a slam dunk victory ..even after Appeals..

Then what??

Tofino goes broke...has to raise taxes for everyone BIGGER time...or possibly the rest of BC has to bail them out???

Couldn't happen ???

Chris LeFevre provided the badly needed water... FREE. He could have played Daddy Warbucks and seized the chance to use the water for his businesses only, with the intent to kill off the competition. He also didn't play banker and say pay me later with interest...right??? No, H20 = FREE!!!

Maybe LeFevre is the "socialist". He saw the BIG Picture. His $50,000 communal water investment may have had even far greater collateral benefits that would give the smart Vancouver Lawyer no civil case... the businesses were saved...Tofino is off the legal hook, or far less so.

Recall Chrysler , in the 1980's was almost bankrupt...the bailout included its competitors who saw the BIG PICTURE.

Quit putting LeFevre types on the Leftie game show " Whats my REAL Agenda "... or LeFevre types may say F'it...can't win whatever they do. Very UNfortunate loss....Lefties fill the void ..right...or is it A-void ???

If there is a fire do you wait till the Fire Dept shows up...or take charge ??? On that note...What if there actually was a fire ???

Take this as one of many current and future examples of Gov't as incompetent taxing bloodsuckers,....often with Leftie kneejerk solution - deficient excuse - makers in THEIR back pockets...if not IN Gov't ....and who ultimately wins and who loses ???

I never thought I'd see the day when Lefties on this sight favoured tax breaks for the rich. Someone pinch me!

All these new BC millionaire property owners should pay their fair share of taxes. Period. IF the government is going to give a break to someone it should be single parents and the poor. Simple.

And those asset rich, cash poor property owners can easily get a tiny loan from CHIP reverse mortgages to cover the relatively minuscule costs of paying property taxes. A few thousand dollars is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands in appreciation. They don't pay a dime of the reverse mortgage until the sell or pass away. That would still leave tons of equity to fall back on in the Bahamas or where ever else they want to go.

I never thought I'd see the day when Lefties on this sight favoured tax breaks for the rich. Someone pinch me!

All these new BC millionaire property owners should pay their fair share of taxes. Period. IF the government is going to give a break to someone it should be single parents and the poor. Simple.

And those asset rich, cash poor property owners can easily get a tiny loan from CHIP reverse mortgages to cover the relatively minuscule costs of paying property taxes. A few thousand dollars is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands in appreciation. They don't pay a dime of the reverse mortgage until the sell or pass away. That would still leave tons of equity to fall back on in the Bahamas or where ever else they want to go.

P Left Foot-
Careful when you write such nonsense. The rich have all the tax breaks. That was never the point of what RickW has been driving at, in my view; and certainlyhad nothing to do with what others have posted. CHIP reverse mortgages are for the 'aged' in any case and only help, practically speaking for a limited time and a fixed amount of debt.

GWest - the comments from RickW didn't really make sense to me. What was he going on about? Why does he reckon I want to interfere with the way people live or hate my neighbours!? There is nothing wrong with the philosophy of live-and-let-live as long as you live by our laws and pay your share of taxes etc. Just because someone moves to Tofino to enjoy a quiet retirement does not mean they are now somehow exempt from their obligations to society.

RickW was griping that high net worth property owners in Tofino and elsewhere should not pay taxes or somehow be exempt. I'm saying that's b.s. There are lots of ways for people to work out a plan for taxes.

And yes, I have a problem with those owners in Tofino and many of BC's island communities placing a blockade on new development even when it is sustainable. I suspect this is more about those property owners trying to monopolize the cushy lifestyle and "kick back" while everyone else can stay in an Eastside one-bedroom condo as far as they’re concerned. Forget it! If the developments are sustainable and responsible then let’s allow them. It will allow more normal people to enjoy this great province. Not everyone can afford the Wikininish etc. These great places like Tofino and the islands should not become the exclusive domain of a few people who can afford outrageous property prices and hotel rates. Does this mean I somehow hate my neighbours as RickW suggests? Of course not.

Somehow I don't think P's Left Foot is from a small town. Small towns are full of regular people trying to make a living, not just rich folks with a "cushy lifestyle".

Property taxes are pushing many ordinary people out of their homes all across Canada, especially in areas that are becoming prized by vacationers. What's not to understand? Just because your house is now suddenly worth a million dollars on the market does NOT mean you have a million bucks in the bank. Why should you be forced to sell the house you've lived in for 40 years just because the market has pushed up its "value" and you can no longer afford the taxes? In many places, the taxes charged are disproportional to the size of the town anyway. Unless you factor in all the millions the town needs to build in infrastructure so that vacationers can stay at fancy new resorts and play golf.

Small towns are not made up solely of rich people, as you seem to suggest.

Like a lot of issues:

NIMBY subspecies IWHF(I Was Here First)

I thought Local Gov'ts were to establish OCP's and growth plans...

This ALSO projects future needs..aka water.

Otherwise all these rich people are either squatters...or they bought developments that FIRST ran the gauntlet of Local Gov't bylaws.

Agree with many .... ie the owner is often the last person to have control over property values...especially if they bought cheap 40 years ago.. aka they are the SELLER.

The SELLER needs a BUYER...

Its called progress, mobility, BC is not a well kept secret anymore etc...some Luddites don't get it.

These same IWHF Luddites, if they do keep everyone out... certainly won't sell for a penny less than what the market is... driven by BUYERS on the economic ledger side ....ironically these IWHF Luddites,(ie Whistler Hippies subspecies ).... if successful ,.... create an even bigger land shortage and drive the IWHF Luddites' property price up even more.

( Maybe Davie and the NDP should have frozen recreational /rural property too....) Ever see old BINGO Stupichs' primal Island digs . Was that swimming pool a hologram ???)

AHa..I get it...oh you Clever double dipping IWHF Luddite....

Let's not forget that Victoria had a similar problem until very recently. Three huggers there vehemently resisted expansion of the Sooke resevior when the CRD wanted to cut trees in order raise the dam in the mid 1980s. This led to water shortages and algae bloom which really damaged the quality of Victoria's water. Ultimately, it had to be done and was.

I too grew up in BC and I do feel for the days of 30 years ago when we had half the population. However, the mentality of "I'm here now so nobody else can come" is simply not going to work.

What we need is controlled, sustainable growth. Guy Dauncey is an old friend of mine and we worked together on the Bamberton project in the mid 1980s when I was an envoromental studies student at UVic. Guy's message was way ahead its time, basically stating "growth is coming so we may as well make it as green as possible."

Cobble Hill and Mill Bay residents were wickedly opposed to the project and eventually shot it down. Twenty years later we have far more development in the area than the Bamberton project ever would have introduced with resulting straings on water and sewage, which are mostly wells and septic tanks. Many of the wells in the area are now not drinkable or drying up due to simple short sightedness.

I have also seen Don Giovani Stupich's place on Gabriola. Hardly sustainable.

try this on for size:
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=11874

PLF:

Now pay attention here......You buy a casr for (say) $26 G's, having beat the dealer down from $28. You pay tax on $26, not on $28. Now why is that? According to you, you should be paying on the $28.
Taxes on the purchase price of a product is democratic.

Taxes paid on some hypothetical "assessed" value is totalitarian. Fact is, NO ONE knows how much something will sell for until it's sold. Now why should land be an exception to this much touted rule of the marketplace?

What a lame answer RickW. So the richest people in the province who hang on to fabulous Tofino waterfront properties and island properties should forever have their taxes limited to their original purchase price regardless of how much the property is worth/assessed today? Nice one. Thus you'd also condemn people who've bought recently and had to mortgage themselves to the hilt to also pay a fortune in taxes to supplement the sweet deals of the IWHF set. Brilliant. You're a genius.

Pay your taxes like everyone else! The rich must pay just like the poor on asset value – the property tax system is based upon one of the few assets that can't be hidden offshore and thus it is one of our most equitable taxation systems. Those residents need to expand their reservoir and they should figure out a way for the community to do it without dumping the cost on the rest of us. They won the lottery of real estate values over the last few years and thus the community can afford it.

Here’s an easy way for them to do it: The City should zone additional land for development (in a sustainable way) and then sell off the lots to developers to build additional homes, hotels and restaurants etc. They’d easily be able to generate several million dollars to cover reservoir costs. Plus perhaps the rest of us might one day be able to afford a place there because there are more properties and rental locations. Paradise is still protected plus there is water for the lawn.

The real estate lottery only pays off if you suddenly don't need to live anywhere anymore - i.e. you die, and the asset value passes to your heirs w/out a problem.

Lawns are always a bad use for water btw.

The real estate lottery pays big time if you're like Tofino council and control a bunch of undeveloped land that can be rezoned. They can easily sell it to generate funding.....as long as the NIMBYs and IWHFs don't control/veto council (which appears to have been the case for years there). Instead they'll plead to Victoria to save them from the tourists of Vancouver. It adds insult to injury - they'll want to grab tax dollars from Victoria (they don't need) and blame those paying their taxes in Vancouver for the causing the problem. They've chosen to live in a fabulous place. It's inevitable that others will want to move there too. They have to deal with it and face it (and plan for it).

The point is not that a lot of money couldn't be generated. The point is that such a lottery will create another circus like Banff on the west coast of the Island.

That the people and the electors of the area have resisted this inexorable process as effectively as they have is a feather in their cap. THe whole area should be National Park and development should STOP, in my view. The values of the place are diluted and idspersed by every additional ersatz mansion on the foreshore and every ridiculous luxury hotel and resort.

Like the widget tourism that brings busloads of wallets into Victoria on cruise ships each week for a 24 hour ritual rendering, this is not sustainable and never will be.

I'd suggest the real reason that the Empress is losing convention bookings is less the sight of a few homeless people panhandling on the street and more the absolute tackiness of the plastic atmosphere of Victoria's downtown - without some care, the same will soon be true of Tofino and Long Beach generally, and that's a real shame in my view.

Now that is ridiculous. Turn Tofino into a national park, stop all development (except for those lucky enough to be there already of course). Tourism is a fantastic industry for this province. It is relatively clean, keeps thousands employed and keeps lots of tax dollars floating into the economy so we can afford our healthcare and educational systems (both of which are already struggling due to inadequate funding).

If we turn the entire place into a park then who pays for the social safety net?

Growth can me managed as long as the people responsible are not completely short-sighted and/or idiots as in the case of Tofino.

Who said anything about stoping tourism?

Have you been to Banff lately? I'll bet that park contributes a lot more to the Alberta and Local economy than Tofino does.

I just want things managed better than you do. And not buy a bunch of self-important business types: I think Tofino suffers, just like Victoria does by the cookie-cutter kind of thing that Tourism BC loves. Come spend a weekend in Victoria and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

As for the social safety net, when I find Tofino business operators plunking down 50G of their after-tax cash to update the local hospital I'll rejoice. Until then, that's a red herring.

Economics, philisophically speaking.

I wonder if Tofino and Ucluelet levy DCC's (Development Cost Charges) as per the Local Govt Act.

This usually pays for the deemed impact of the new building on local services

Next is Property Taxes...

If one understands how Local Gov't arrive at the property taxes for each given year, including mill rate adjustments...I always find it interesting how say, a new 3000 sq.ft $ Million dollar house (Ie on a expensive waterfront lot) impacts the area versus say a 20 year old 3000 sq.ft house across the street say worth $375,000

Assume Same basic house...same water demand...hydro etc...same enviro impact.

It's simply a cash grab.

It doesn't cost the town any more...but the taxation system allows it to charge more based on value. What does the town do with the money???

Sometimes it changes the tax grab Bell Curve..and the town charges more for houses of greater assessed value, and thus taxes can drop for lower assessed properties,,..in order to still meet the towns' budget.

The $million dollar house pay their fair share of taxes..and often more...if you see my argument. However,...The fact the owner may want a 24 K gold chandelier is their business, and won't affect the City a damn bit...except maybe the local lighting store. They would still be taxed for it though...

Tired of punish,..tax ...and eat the rich arguments...envy trumps and masks incomptent Gov'ts that either piss it away or are basically incompetent.

I find the rich are quite tasty actually - tender and nicely marbled.

Hey Glen Clark buddy!!!

Hows the deck comrade

Jimmy Pattison treating you OK ???

I find socialist often rather bitter... a bit tart... bloated...gassy.

Best Served up during blood sacrifices

When they dry up...end up as communists. Check our Lenin.

PS Don't you wish they brought him to the new science world BODY exhibit.????

PLF:

So this is a lame answer? You subscribe to totalitarianism? Just because someone THINKS something is worth a cetain amount, that's what it should be taxed at? Now THAT is lame! How can anyone possibly know what a price SHOULD be, until it is sold? How can it possibly be otherwise? Tell me...please! I would honestly like to know how anyone can determine what something SHOULD cost.........

And PS:

Tofino's reservoir is on Meares Island. Di the town BUY Meares Island? How have they come to own it, if they didn't? Expalin that to me while you are explaining the other. Or are we simply allowed to go out and grab whatever we want? Like I can go into the bush and claim any chunk of land I feel like? And as much as I feel like?
Please, oh please, tell me how Tofino gets to take the water from Meares Island in a democratic society that uses the free market system to determiine ownership............

And whle you are at it, tell me where the city gets this here land from to be able to zone it. Like the above, does it just go out and take it? If that's the case, then I suppose I can just go out and take what I want as well, huh?

I do hope you've got a good explanation for all this....otherwise you are just wasting space here.

Yo Ricky, Tofino is a district and therefore its council is basically the trustee of land within the district (the district was set up by the Province years ago). They set up a community plan for the entire district (which presumably must comply with Provincial standards) and then rezone land, build roads, provide services like sewer, water etc. Meares Island is part of the Tofino District and therefore they can use it for their water needs. It gets trickier once we start considering aboriginal land claims and I'll defer to any experts reading this site on that issue.

As for your questions about valuation, the BC assessment system is based upon market rates as determined by professional appraisers. It relies on the opinions of the professional appraisers. While not an exact science, you can bet in most circumstances a residential appraisal is +/-10% correct. The other guiding principal is fairness and equity. Everyone gets appraised by the same appraisal standards and therefore if the appraisal over-estimates by 10% then you can relax because your neighbour's place will also be over-estimated by the same +/-10%. Since these estimates are used to calculate everyone share of property taxes you end up with a fair and balanced result (as long as your understand grade 11 mathematics). The appraisers track market sales in your area (every sale) and use this info to determine the value of your home (you can actually get all this info for free online including the value of your place). If you disagree then you can appeal and have a re-evaluation back to the right market rate. It is a fair system.

There are a lot of injustices in this world. Making million dollar property owners pay some higher property taxes isn't one of them. And if you're one of those property owners then pay up like everyone else you ungrateful, lucky, s.o.b.

Re : Tofino and Property Taxes.

Assuming DCC's were paid for new development...However, if the $ Million dollar home was built on a pre-existing lot...ie demolished an older home... no DCC's.

Our own Local Gov't is not only charging DCC's, they had another $30,000 cash grab over and above DCC's when someone subdivides a 66 ft wide lot into 2. Used to be used for so called lane allowances....this turned ugly due to impractability...then they came up with an affordable housing fund...which is beyond their scope...but it looks more like an ass covering excuse to hide the past screw up and avoid litigation...ie grab the same $30,000 ABOVE the DCC's...and find some so - called palatable excuse to do so.

QUESTION #1 How does Tofino's taxes etc break down?

QUESTION #2 Where is the money directed?

Taxing million dollars homes 2...3..4...5X's anyone else's is not synonymous with increased water....nor avoiding water shortages.

Friend and I visited Whistler. Looked at the high end new homes. NOBODY HOME it appeared. Not using many services...low impact. How similar is Tofino???

Forget the " pay their fair share arguments "...what is THAT fair share number ???....who decides what " fair " is...??? Tax increases always seem low, but remember they compound ie 3% on top of 3 % last year and so on...and then people look at their old property taxes and get sticker shock.

The arguments should be directed at those with the most power to either solve the problem or prevent the problem aka Local Gov't.

However.... we get into this divide and conquer amongst ourselves , find some straw man to beat up on... while there are good points from both/all sides .... again(yawn)agree to disagree...Gov'ts just love this...off the hook again.

It is my understanding that Vancouver has a program where funds are dedicated for infrastructure replacement on a 1% / 100 year cycle. Ie the sewers and the water lines etc are dug up and replaced on this cycle. That's called a PLAN and no/few budgetary surprises.

Fair share??? not really .
Found out in our City that they will create a statistical point based on the % increase in one's property value. One year the point was 8 %....ie if your property increase was less than 8%...NO tax increase...if it was greater than 8% ...you bore the burden to achieve the City's budget requirements.

This 8 % "net" could affect anyone... even low income/elderly based on perhaps a hot market area...versus so called evil people who live in $ million dollar houses whose properties did not rise in value may have had a tax decrease...on the PERCENTAGE increase formula...not value.

Devil is in the details....as always.

Everyone wins if Gov'ts use the taxes "fairly" and properly with long term vision . They(Gov'ts) are starting to nickle and dime us like airline tickets,and it will only get worse...

Hold them accountable FIRST ...then work backwards in class warfare pissing matches, versus them playing us off against each other and Gov'ts laughing all the way to the bunk-err.

PLF:

I know a few cases of homestead inheritances on the Gulf Islands where the inheritor couldn's pay the property taxes, because, just because one owns a property that someone else has decreed is worth a million bucks, it makes that person a land owner, yet only a millionaire on paper. So, with no cash to pay the taxes, and on a fixed income so that lenders are reluctant provide the funds, the inheritor is forced to sell or be forclosed upon, because someone else (like you) arbitrarily decided that person is a millionaire?

Also, so who made Tofino the trustee? How did that party acquire the land that enabled them to do this?

I repeat, in a market driven economy, I want to see the sales slip. That is the ONLY way to determine the worth of a commodity. (and you haven't even addressed this little issue, throwing up smoke instead of answers)

When it comes to the estimate of values in Tofino and elsewhere we're all captive to the opinion of appraisers. You're right that it is an estimate and not reality, but it is fair since everyone gets treated the same way.

The reality is that those people that chose to live on a fabulous island where this nation of baby boomers wishes to retire either have to pay their deemed property taxes or sell and move to a more affordable place. Blame all those retiring baby boomers driving up prices.

Unless an intelligent and far sighted Federal Government recognized that the unique characteristics of that piece of nature had more and more profound 'meaning' for the whole of this nation - and not just the 2% of the population who can afford to buy property there now - and turned it all into a National Park.

That would be be right thing to do - to put an end to the insane speculation there just because of the 'values' there.

Unfortunately, we don't have an intelligent and far sighted federal Government - we have a government which is more concerned with selling the whole damn country to the highest bidder.

Hey GWest, for someone with a social conscience your solution would be the quickest way to demolish the social safety net, education and healthcare. Turning much of the country into a national park would kill the Canadian resource-based economy and tax base. It reminds me of Rafe Mair's comments on Catholicism. Shallow policies lead to massive devastation – either Catholicism’s refusal of birth control or the Green wing’s desire to halt all meaningful economic activity that could possibly interfere with nature.

And besides, name a single "far sighted" Federal politician you would trust to establish and maintain such policies fairly. Name a party who would honour them after this hypothetical ruler was booted out of power. This country is built on the pork barrel, insider kick-backs and Quebec-driven regionalism.

RE: Property Taxes...Million dollar homes and the classic " fair share "...

QUESTION:

Does anyone truly understand the appraisal system ???

Or is my City different than the rest of BC ????.

Every year we get a BC Assessment appraisal of our properties value...(January)

One can call BC Assessment and ask for comparables ie relevant examples in YOUR area that they used to determine YOUR property assessment. Personally,...I recommend that everyone do. They DO make mistakes...

You have the right to appeal....I have...in one case I won and benefitted about 100 + neighbours...as their assessments had to be adjusted...ie go down.

However...comparable sales can be few and far between...sometimes only 3 -4 sales.....which are then extrapolated to cover 100's of other houses in the area . That's the way it's done...at least in our area.

Thus, the fact that maybe 3 - 4 people had more money than brains....or convinced by the realtor to pay a bit more...R-E-G-A-R-D-L-E-S-S of the reasons......the 100's of others who have lived in the same area 5...10...25...50...etc. years have their appraisal bumped up....the City sets the mill rate...and ta da !! drum roll.....you get your property tax calculation. Everybody of every race, religion, age, social status, income is caught in this system's net.

Anyone remember a few years back the elderly in Vancouver facing huge property tax increases....on limited income... maybe bought the house for $30,000 and it rose to $1,000,000...???

For EXAMPLE: Our City has a mill rate of approx. $700 per $100,000 in value. If someone buys a house for $100,000 more than last year....effectively 100's of others pay $700 MORE next year for taxes.

Its not any different than stocks capitalization..its the multiplier effect ....it ain't rocket science either.

Thus the owner who had a property for 40 years..or 10 years....or one year..is caught up in that system...they are often the last person guilty of the price increases...unless of course they are NIMBYS..IWHF...who then create a land shortage...drives up the price even higher....taxes rise....and then bitch about that too.....DUHHHH !!!!

Like many things...probably a good idea at the time...but give Gov't enough time...it will screw it up...and unfortunately have enough support to turn the screws even more...usually by the sectors that knee jerk into class warfare( ie THEY HAVE 40 year old Cabins homes they paid $20,000 for now worth $1,000,000 ......THUS WE COMRADES MUST NAIL THEM BIG TIME !!!!) and have their own self- interest in clinging to the cash cow of the public teat of which property taxes are a major udder.

Enough of this Bubble - Boy mentality. Its also called "BC is not a well - kept secret" ...and property prices will rise either way...YET moreso with restricted inventory and NO long - range planning.
I assume Tofino has a limited NON Public land base...and not enough Dutch citizens to start expanding into the ocean...

PLfoot
What are you smoking? Tofino and the Long Beach area are the whole of the country?

Show me somewhere that I've posted any such suggestion.

Shallow policies sure do lead to devastation, on that point I agree with you. That's what I'm trying to get people to wake up to.

Stupid capitalism, colonialism and take what you can strip mine, clear cut and highgrade and get the hell out are the problem. Sustainable year-round communities with decent services for ALL are the answer, in my view.

Anyway, let me know if you ever have a relevant point.

Kind of hard to highgrade any more, almost all of Vancouver Island has been clearcut and has grown back to be logged again, and sometimes again. Of course very few know this, tourists especially can't tell the diff. It always grows back on the coast, quit crying about it. Now, the park idea, we already have enough fukin parks and protected areas, get lost. Sustainable rural communities in B.C., that don't log or mine? Oh, I forgot all the miners and loggers want to be tour guides, it pays so well.

Hey Climber

Lots of beetle kill in the Parks eh ???
Came back from the Interior..its REDDER than the worst NDP years.

What to do ???

Log em....OR Let em rot...and let the fires get em.

PS.... met a fellow a few years back who worked in the forest industry. (He worked for an umbrella group which represented the entire forest industry.

He told me the Pine Beetle kill broke out in a Provincial Park and could have been contained, but the Gov't Minister of the day(..gee which party N...D...P ) said NO...its in a PARK...no touch-ee !!!!

The rest is (sad) history eh ???

PLF:

Hmmm!~~ The Nazis treated the Jews is a manner this "equitable"............The former thought the latter were all vermin.
Now we have a "fair" system that treats everyone as though they are rich.......?

If I get this scenario right, the poor move to an area, which later become an "it" place to be, so the poor have to move on, to an area which at some point becomes an "it" area, so the poor have to move on, tc, etc, ad nauseum. This is "fair"?

I would suggest that my way is "mo' fair". The poor pay taxes on their original purchase price, and when it is sold the new owners pay tax on what they purchased it for, etc. etc. Now is that simple or what? And on top of it all, it is not bureaucratic! That means some staff can be laid off, because it is so simple! The municipality saves money there, and, at the end of it all makes as much or more than it does with this current and arbitary "assessment" farce.

You mentioned a touch ways back that this would descriminate against new home buyers in a "hot" market. I don't see the logic in that. Explain please.....

maestro said,

"Lots of beetle kill in the Parks eh ???
Came back from the Interior..its REDDER than the worst NDP years.

What to do ???

Log em....OR Let em rot...and let the fires get em.

PS.... met a fellow a few years back who worked in the forest industry. (He worked for an umbrella group which represented the entire forest industry.

He told me the Pine Beetle kill broke out in a Provincial Park and could have been contained, but the Gov't Minister of the day(..gee which party N...D...P ) said NO...its in a PARK...no touch-ee !!!!"

North of Hope

Thanks for that. No one actually pays much mind to Maestro. ‘He's’ actually a very sophisticated program whose algorithms are designed to focus on a particular point in a text and then turn it around and rehash the same words in several different ways. Sometimes the result is quite funny but almost never rational.

Hey Rick, check out the BC Assessment site. There is a loan programs available for people over 60 who cannot afford to pay property taxes. As for other poor people who cannot afford to pay a few grand to pay some extra property taxes the answer is simple: get a job. I met a guy on Galiano last year who owned waterfront and also drove a cab to make cash.

I can't believe you're seriously suggesting existing property owners be exempt from paying taxes on their valuable properties (linking taxes to their old purchase price). It is stunning and incredibly unjust to everyone except the richest people in the province who own the most valuable land. Anyway, you know my position on that from previous postings.

As per usual...the point is missed.

It's the land use issue....land scarcity..and why there is a land scarcity...and connected to the Tofino issue. Somehow the water shortage got connected to the people who "illegally" built million dollar homes ...Ie no one knew they would need water..and they are stealing all the water...or are to blame ???

My view was it was " Useless Gov't Inc ". Why shit on the paying customer...leftie strategy ???

The water shortage issue spiralled into a class warfare issue with Johnny leftie AppleSeeds like G West who spread their tired old bizarre left wing logic and would still have their finger in the dyke even if the dyke was burst.

I was taking CLIMBERS comment .....and indicating another side effect of the restrictions in land uses collateral effects...and there are many besides spiralling land prices . The lefties solution is FREEZE/STOP everything asap... end of debate discussion.

Forget the pine beetle kill years ago....?????it seemed to be contained and a party developed pioneering technology to harvest and mill it.Why did this current one become a mass epidemic.....????

Again..the perceived sacred-ness of some land by some parties creates collateral consequence....

Sorry dudes the Socialist mentality is it own algorithm...its own kneejerk programming...amusing us with the same party line...trying to make it with psuedo intellectual debates.

Blah blah blah....seen your type before...usually on the losing side of any debate ..and most elections ...Thank God.

NO SOLUTIONS expect tax and spend..if they were firemen they'd tax the fire to try and put it out

Intellectual Flatliners ..best "left " on an floating island. An Island full of lefties ONLY would sink pretty fast....cannabalize each other...

Capisce' Comrade ???

See how the 'maestro' program works:

It will identify a few words or terms within one, two or even three divergent posts, add a number of ad hominem references and process the mess for a few paragraphs. Adding extensive punctuation marks (long string of question marks are a real favourite) and several words in full CAPITALS and there you have it. Leave a few, sometimes quite a few, misspellings to give the whole thing an air of verisimilitude.

Ellipses are also very popular, but never used in the conventional grammatical sense.

Extremely sophisticated within its narrow purview.

G ster

Who wrote that for you ???

Rkewen Version 2007 ???
or BoobScat Version same old same old ???

Yes..we have to confess to the public G Stringer....my Grade 10 cloning experiment of my Leftie Arts teacher was successful....

You seem to be surviving very well in the cold cruel non Leftie majority by choice world....but we are impressed with your $5 words and Ninja -like reflexes in whipping out the U.S. thesaurus to access them.

Verisimilitude....now your talking....my favourite kosher Dubai pasta !!!

How's the Tofino condo...did you raise the asking price...??? I love your IWHF NIMBY strategy..cleverrrr.

Running for Tofino mayor ? Many somehow postulate a vacancy, you can bless then with all your wit , Trudeau-esque quotes....and Non- solutions... (Watch out for the Union made tar and feathers though).

Sound like a Ti Cat fan...

It is so cute to hear Green Lefties have an intellectual wank over their big ideas and then offer no viable solution for implementation and long-term management.

"Sustainable year-round communities with decent services for ALL are the answer, in my view."

In other words a large tax base to fund the services for ALL, however don't do it with any industrial activity that is not allowed in a national park (that's what you say Gwest - read your own posting).

As maestro says, thank Gad the Green Left is never elected.

Lui aka PLF

Bang on:

Todays Socialist Sesame Street Leftie $5 word is " sustainable ".
( Currently being defined ).
Freeze ,Tax and Spend are still in the Top 10 . Millions of dissatisfied customers/victims can't be wrong !!!

Teleport water from the mothership...and windmills to generate power for their " blogging know -it- all laptops" , in front their prime view commune lots. Yepppp!

Don't the NASA astronauts recyle urine for drinking water ??? G'ster's next IPO ???

Gawwwddd.

Maestro/Passaglefoot

Nice to see you two have found each other. As they say, great minds think alike; but fools seldom differ. Make of that what you will. The two of you remind me of a story I once heard told of Beatrice and Sidney Webb.

They were asked to comment on the fact that the two of them always presented a common front on every important issue. Beatrice explained that early on in their married life they decided to vote alike on all great issues. Beatrice went on to say: "Sidney was to decide which way we voted. I was to decide which were the great issues."

I hope you two will have a happy relationship just like the Webbs did. As for the Left in this country agreeing on anything for very long, that's clearly not in the cards.

PLF:

You haven't yet explained that to me. Land owned by the "richest people in the province" seldom stays with that person for decades. As soon as it's "flipped", BANG, in comes the increased tax. And just how does one determine what the "most valuable land" is anyway?

G West:

If we are voting on this, I'll tick the "fools" part......

Just as Maestro says the definition of sustainable is 'Currently being defined', so too is the definition of "decent services". From the rightista perspective, past experience translates that into "unlimited access for next to nothing".......

RickW

LOL

I think the list of the 'richest people in the province' is still pretty damn short - compared with the list of the folks in the other columns - and most of the guys and gals on the short list aren't much worried about any kind of taxes because they 'own' the fellas who make the laws.

PLF and Maestro belong to that small cadre of folks in the middle who likely see themselves breaking on through to the other side.

G stringemupandhangemhigh'ster

I , and most of BC , Society in general , and perhaps even the world are best analogized as the solar powered/Biofuelled Mack Truck in the carpool lane of the long international Reality Highway.

You are the Smart Car (often blocking traffic in the fast lane of progress )with the " Smart " logo in the process of being stolen by a crackhead you picked up as a hitchhiker as you both take the fork in the road to ideological oblivion. You and the crackhead are the apropos Beatrice and Sidney coupling aka deserve each other.

So....Spout the ivory tower ranting to the addict as they pry off the "Smart" logo to cash in for their latest fix. Oops its plastic...addict now goes nuts...Quick detour to free injection site.

Beatrice and Sidney Webb...great people.
Ex - Lefties. Used the run the NDP " Lemmings R Us" fundraiser RUN .

Nice try...Leftie branding iron...agree with a person on some thing = agree with them on all ???. Geez...when its 12 Noon do we agree or agree to disagree.

CONCLUSION : THE TYEE needs a separate Leftie site aka " TYEE NO SOLUTIONS SITE. Class warfare Ranters only SVP ".

Good one G stringemupandhangemhigh re Lefties. One funny thing sadly lacking in in the Evil Capitalist System LTD. was that The Lefties had a monopoly on VIRTUE aka vote NDP ... we have all the VIRTUOUS questions but NO VIRTUOUS answers(other than tax and spend VIRTUOUSLY ). This was a VIRTUE cartel !!!

Now they have corporate competition ie the Green Party...etc. So now VIRTUE has competition. Now they can enter the free market with VIRTUE as a commodity. Next is the Global Virtue market...and then the world price of VIRTUE. Then IPOs on VIRTUE. Insider trading on VIRTUE...

Dam ! what have we started here...we need the old communistic system back ....millions of disgruntled shareholders/customers can't be wrong....ONE VIRTUE FITS ALL.

Now go back to marking your Fine Arts .000101 papers.

PS Beatrice and Sidney say hi.

What do they call it when a small business person operating say, a Mom'n'Pop store, get paid a visit from the local gang, which says they want so many dollars a week/month for Mom'n'Pop to stay in business? Oh yeah! It's called extortion! Now the "right " thing to do here is to go to the police and report this. At least that's what we're told in the movie version. But lo and behold, Mom'n'Pop find out the cops are actually on the side of the "gang". So Mom'n'Pop have to pay up or lose their store.

I didn't know until just now that PLF, et al are in favour of extortion as a means of doing business. Another page from the rightistas Little Red Book!