Right-on First Nations! You can be sure all the racists are going to be upset about this, though...

Capitalism/Maybelle.
I thought you'd given up on this hateful left wing place and sworn off it forever.

I knew that wouldn't last - you're sounding more and more like Ron/IACM than ever.

Nothing like setting up a straw man and ignoring the real problems of this project.

Have a look at the Enbridge brochure:
http://www.enbridge.com/gateway/pdf/gateway-brochure-03.pdf

What an unbelievable piece of fluff. An 8 page piece of advertising bumpf made up of one page of incomplete data, much of it reproduced below and 7 pages of mostly colour lithography and self promotion (including a piture of a wind farm):

The company invites queries - I hope they get a lot of them, not least of which is the source of the condensate, which is a byproduct of natural gas production.

I can't help but think there is a connection somewhere to a LNG facility from which the condensate will come/arrive in the tankers mentioned above.

Lots of unanswered questions - we may need First Nations to take the lead on this one for sure. I don't know what the capacity of the tankers that this project will attract is but, combining a large tank farm (for that throughput) with the necessary shipping traffic is no small thing. In my view.

How about realism instead of racism Anarcho, like it says, "legally sophisticated" First Nations. That means lawyers, white ones, advising the F.N.s, getting paid by the taxpayer. This pipeline will happen, as soon as the F.N.s can get the maximum benefits for giving the oil companies an easy ride. Pretty simple to figure out, the real question is "how much money is it going to take to get your OK?" I have nothing against the F.N.s, they are only doing what we have encouraged them to do, with funding from us, trying to get the best deal for themselves.

climber
Be that as it may, have you looked at the Enbridge brochure? WHere is the condensate coming from?

This pipeline project only describes part of an import/export connection - the other shoe has yet to fall.

The oil/condensate are to be twinned on the same r.o.w., the condensate is going to be brought into Kitimat from somewhere, who knows where, who cares?. What about the existing piplines and powerlines that bring oil, natural gas and electricity to the Vancouver area, that run through many First Nations areas and cross many rivers. People there are happy to have power, gas for cooking and heating, gasoline and diesel for thier vehicles, or if they don't have thier own vehicles, for vehicles for bringing them food. Where are the protests to have these pipelines ripped out because they are so "bad", major hypocrisy, as usual. Obliviuos to the realities of what makes thier little world go around, focused on the "problems" of others.

And here's what the Enbridge website has to say about its brand:

That's why it's so important that we effectively communicate our identity, and achieve and maintain strong brand image recognition in the marketplace. And that's why our brand identity program is so important.

The guidelines that are contained in this section of our website have been designed to support and enhance our brand image by providing Enbridge with a distinctive and consistent "look" and "voice" that is immediately identifiable as "Enbridge". In the pages that follow you will find guidelines for the correct uses of our logo, the approved colors and type fonts, and the basic "dos" and "don'ts" for creating branded documents.

By applying these graphics standards consistently, you will contribute to the overall awareness and memorability of our name. And you will communicate the increasingly important role that Enbridge plays in energy delivery in North America.

And you'll make sure people don't associate your "brand" with 8 rupture incidents in the last 10 years - 3 for fatigue; 3 from external metal loss; one from internal metal loss and 1 from improper operation.

You want to make sure you hone your image every chance you get when you're in this business.

Oh I know climber - Pembina is planning another condensate import pipeline from Kitimat to Prince George to service the Natural Gas industry in Northern BC. The point is that there must be an LNG port somewhere in the mix - heard anything? Prince Rupert maybe? Ocean Falls?

and here's a little more bumpf from Enbridge. I hope Truman gets a look at these. (you gotta love a firm with such a strong commitment to bulleted text)

A Leading Company

* copy should be forward-focused, while referencing past successes (and ignoring past failures)
* copy should reference the entire organization in order to convey breadth, depth and expertise

A Growing Company

* copy should speak of initiatives throughout the organization
* use benchmark measurements to illustrate improvements and establish the context for growth (but no mention of failures)

A Customer-focused Company

* use clear, professional language that communicates expertise and demonstrates understanding (even if it isn't really all that sure it always knows what it is doing)
* use benefit-driven copy and headlines

A Strong Company

* copy should employ a crisp, confident tone, without appearing arrogant
* use bulleted text to emphasize key points
* avoid flowery, overly-descriptive prose

An Innovative Company

* provide status reports and updates (especially to investors)
* solicit input and utilize interactive and electronic formats, such as Q&A and Internet (judge for yourself)

I definitely feel a lot better with those nice graphics they paint on their tanks though!

[comments in italics are mine]

The only real tragedy is that these hyper-profitable projects still do not account for the environmental costs. In other words, we (or our children) will face significant difficulty responding to climate change, cancer etc.

All the capitalists should be outraged at this continued and massive tax-payor funded subsidy.

Right now there are several projects lining up to take tankers through BC’s inside passage to and from Kitimat.

1. A company called Methanex is already importing condensate, which is a mix of toxic chemicals and liquids that is a by product of natural gas production from South America which is added to pipelines to enable an efficient flow of oil through pipelines. Each tanker carries 350,000 barrels of condensate.

2. Enbridge wants approval to ship up to a million barrels of tar sands crude oil a day to China, India and California, using three to ten tankers a week.

3. Enbridge and Kinder Morgan want approval for two competing 1,200 km pipelines that would send imported condensate from Kitimat to Alberta at the rate of 100,000 barrels a day, which presumes that the condensate will be shipped to Kitimat in the first place.

4. There’s a condensate pipeline proposal by Pembina to send 100,000 barrels of condensate a day from Kitimat to Summit Lake, north of Prince George.

5. A company called Kitimat LNG has received an environmental assessment certificate for a Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) terminal to be built in Kitimat

You have to consider all these things together.

In my view, these proposals are just one end of a pipeline/tanker supply loop that’ll bring LNG in tankers (not just condensate which would work in a closed loop if exporting oil was all that was involved and we had sufficient supplies of our own condensate) onto the north coast of BC at least partly through the Inside Passage. Why are we importing condensate?

Because we’re running out of natural gas. You know the idea of an LHG terminal would never fly on the Island or on the Lower Mainland – even though that’s where much of the natural gas is going to be used.

Sorry Bullets don't work so well with this program.

Hey G West,

This is truly like a game of industry chess; image making, red herrings, and so on... I am not sure those involved realize the level of commitment FN's on the coast have to ensure the safety of their traditional lands...hummm.

The WM settlement Ocean Falls, yeah maybe G. It has quite a history of abuse and protest now. Anyways, they may try...

Woodward is an excellent lawyer. He has done well by the Xeni Gwetin' people in the Chilcotin. If he is being paid even partially by tax-payers...good, and as it should be.

Peace

RTB

oh just skip all the bullshit posturing and envirotears . . . how much cash do they want ??

What's their price ??

Jammed up in alberta - not everyone has a price - just as not everyone is impressed by birds painted on the sides of oil tanks and four colour lithography on promo blurbs. The only people Enbridge are really committed to are their shareholders.

Let's hope the first nations never let this get to be a question of a debate over dollars.

If the people of the Lower Mainland want the gas - they should take the LNG port into their bosom, build it at Tsawassen, and not foist it off on the north coast as a 'benefit' to the area. Even the Americans, qua the tank farms at Long Beach in California, are more up front and honest than that.

...You know LJ, I am not suggesting there is no one amungst the FN people who will not be willing to sell out to big industry, some might... but I do not believe it will happen with the Central Coast communities. They will imo refuse to have oil\gas industry in any form any where close to their traditional lands... Tankers, off-shore drilling and so on. It won't happen, and they are organizing themselves accordingly...

Case in point LJ; The Central Coast fish farm situation. Money to be made, right. The Heiltsuk people from BB and many other communities refused to sell out on this economically viable industry, and were disturbed when other communities did, as it affected their fish too (sea lice and so on). As it turned out fish farming is an ecological disaster...

Peace

RTB

You said it best "G". Some people and their communities have an Ethical Will. So what are you selling out on today Logjam 603??

Peace

RTB

"So what are you selling out on today Logjam 603??"

nuttin today . too busy working to pay taxes so that every year $10 billion can be given to natives so they don't have to live in the real world.

State welfare . . . the new colonialism.

Corporate Welfare - the old boondoggle!

...oh I see Logjam 603,

Old Colonialism: kick 'em down.
New Colonialism: Why the hell arn't you standen' up.

Pathetic...

RTB

rtb
rightly put, my friend.

"New Colonialism: Why the hell arn't you standen' up.
"

Noooooooooooooooooooo. RtB ya missed the point entirely.

New Colonialism = keep 'em addicted to welfare - money, free houses, free medical - where they get to jump the line-ups even, and never ever criticize lest you be branded a racist.

I lived in a remote Aborignial village for four years - I have seen it and lived it. Welfare destroys the soul and the spirit faster than anything, including drugs.

What's your relevent experience ???

Logjam, your point was too weak to pick out...imo.

Lj, I have worked with FN's in B.C. and Alberta. Many of which are friends of mine. I respect them dearly, and sympathize with their struggles...

Good day dude...

Peace

RTB

Some pieces of script are pretty true. Every first nation person is an environmentalist till some cave as money starts being waived in front of them. Only takes one band council to go onside and others start to follow. Am I right wing? No way but have seen this scenario played out before. and yes someone mentioned "white lawyers" getting intot act. Don't forget some of the first nations lawyers are just as keen to make a buck. Is the pipe line a good idea? I don't know but if big business wants it, they will get it especially as long as Gordon and gang are in place.And of course as long as Steve is the big guy in Ottawa. A little grease goes a long way. But then again if you have a community of a couple hundred people, mostly unemployed and the big carrot is waved under the right peoples noses, suddenly it's the right thing to do especially if the company offers a few open jobs. Lets not forget the Burger inquiry. No pipe line till land claims are settled said the ex judge. Hey now the same environmentalists are right in the middel collecting the cash

Logjam, basically I agree with you, I tried to be somewhat diplomatic, but "cut the bullshit, how much do you want?" is more like it. When you ask, what is your experience, most people here are without any, never worked with natives, never partied for days on end with them, never been comfortable with them, have no clue. Welfare/DIAND has stripped many F.N.s of thier pride, all the native guys I have ever worked with did not live on the reserve, and they were hard workers, who taught me how to sharpen a chainsaw, among other things. The handing out billions of tax dollars to native bands with no or little accountability has got to stop. The women and people who are not connected to the chief or his cronies get fuked, meanwhile guess who is driving the new 4x4s? I would very much like to see this pipeline go through, royalties be paid to everyone in the affected bands, not just the band councils. The damage caused by years of systemic cultural genocide and other abuse in many forms cannot be solved by money alone, these cultures need time to heal. I would like to see bands control thier own destinies with money they earn, through renting land to r.o.w.s, logging, tourism, whatever. They need help to do this, and the spending of funds has to be held up to light, the accounting done by outside firms. Call me a racist, the native women on reserves across Canada ask for the same thing, share the wealth. Guilt is a mighty poor decider, lets move on.

...fair enough DLP, but as I mentioned on previous posts, the FN's have often turned down industry in past situations. Myself, I have a confidence in their strength and unity on this one...

Peace man

RTB

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=f683f8c4-ec6d-4b36-84c2-32f2a195e5df&k=18943 Now lookee here at this Woodward feller and his crew, RTB, you are right, he is a good lawyer, running up the bill that is. Good lord.

This sort of cynicism "Well, everone is in it for the take", is one of the means that the system has of controlling us. Yes, SOME people do sell out, but, in my experience not all of them, or even a majority of them. It goes for all sorts of people, trade unionists, enviros, socialists, Native People, feminists, even Bakunin forbid, the odd anarch, but a movement of honest, decent folks keep pluggin away, year in and year out. If everyone was a louse, we would still have chattel slavery and children would work in coal mines.

Absolutely...!

Peace anarcho

RTB

There is nothing Kinder about this oily Morgan - and there is an under-reported serious health hazard that will be implemented by this pipe pimp over the next 5 years. http://www.terasengas.com/_AboutTerasenGas/HealthSafetyandEnvironment/ProposedFacilityPestManagementPlan.htm. They are planning to dip us in a nice noxious pool of pesticides (which have been shown to be carcinogenic) to "control problem vegetation and hazardous tree growth". The pesicides they plan to use are:
chlorsulfuron (Telar)
dicamba (Dycleer)
diuron (Karmex DF)
glyphosate (Roundup, Roundup Weathermax, Roundup Transorb, Glyphos, Vantage Plus)
imazapyr (Arsenal)
simazine (Simazine 80W)
and triclopyr (Garlon 4)

I have no idea why this is not being reported by major news centers - because it is no small matter, and it is a serious violation of the rights of people living in the areas Kinder Morgan intends to poison - which includes First Nations' lands. Laying down these veins (ie pipes) of dead organic mass (ie fossil fuels) would be foreshadowing if they are allowed to go forth without an objection from the those not blissful of ignronace.

Oh, I think you know Avicenna. Just as the Times Colonist fired a columnist for mildly criticizing a couple of its major advertisers in Victoria - the media knows on which side of the bread the butter goes.

Maybe someone on line will pick up this story too - (the columnist eventually did get rehired).

But I doubt it.

Avicenna, G West, others, I hate to break it to you but this spraying of herbicides to kill vegetation on right of ways has been going on for many years. Terasen is only one, B.C. Hydro must do the most spraying as they have more r.o.w.s than anyone else in B.C. I used to do treework of all kinds for Hydro, I only ran a saw, never a sprayer, here is what I know. Trees on right of ways are cut down every so many years so they don't grow into powerlines, grow roots into pipes, block roads. Deciduous trees regrow from thier stump, conifers do not. They sprout multiple stems, like Medusa. What I am familar with is called "hack and squirt". The little tree is cut down and herbicide is sprayed or painted on the stump. The tree is killed, so that and the fact you have to have a pesticide applicators licence to do this probably means its fairly nasty stuff. Of course the utilities and railroads use herbicides to reduce costs, what with labour costs going up and men getting less productive generally it is easy to understand. That doesn't make it right though, but these chemicals are approved for use, that doesn't mean they are safe either. Anyways, Kinder Morgan isn't doing anything new, hope you aren't too shocked.

climber
Not shocked at all. Business as usual of course climber - no doubt Avicenna was disabused of her naïveté years ago as well.
I do suspect that Avicenna is more aware than most of the downside of exposure to these chemicals.

Unfortunately, G West is correct that I have been disabused (after first being assaulted) with BC Hydro's "Pest Management Plan". - I had the pleasure to sit on an environmental board with one of the head engineers at BC Hydro - and it was a hot topic to be sure. But, surely, even you climber, can perceive the difference between an American oil company building a freakin' pipeline to feed the hungry below - showering us with pesticides along the way; and the accountablity of BC Hydro's "pest management" plan that is under the scrutiny of the environmental watch dogs with whom BC Hydro fraternizes - their wrath is not to be toyed with. BC Hydro has in its mandate to first use non-herbicide methods (such as crushed stones etc) to prevent growth of vegetation in problem areas. They have field biologists who also assess the proximity to water ways and the absorbability and pH of the soil to determine the risk factors associated with various herbicide use in given areas. Those people who work at BC Hydro live here, are well aware of the dangers involved, and have in their mandate to take a minimilist approach when it comes to such matters. It isn't in their best interest to be negligent with such matters. This is not to vindicate the use of pesticides in either public or private spheres - you just have to know who is holding the loaded gun and use your best judgement as to whether you believe the gun slinger has your best interest at heart. You may see things differently, but I don't give my vote of confidence to Kinder Morgan - who have a pretty disasterous environmental and reliability track record.

Avicenna, your response led me to believe this issue was new to you, with the "why is this not being reported" talk. B.C. Hydro, Jesus where do I start, a great outfit in many ways, brought into being by old W.A.C. Still good in many ways, although the Libs are fuking with them. On a personal level I am not happy with the day to day bullshit they pull, like the nickel and diming of contractors which leads to guys being pushed and taking chances working around high voltage, all the while speaking of safety being so important. And other things, I believe in the new doublespeak it is called "externalizing costs". And the replacement of "lineman" with the lame "powerline technician" (p.l.t.) And my biggest beef of all, suckholing to customers, mostly by not removing hazard trees around powerlines because of public pressure. While pledging a safe and reliable system, and having the statutory right to do whatever they want for the safety of the line, I could go on but fuk it. I have met B.C. Hydro biologists before, not impressed, but seeing as like you say "thier wrath is not to be toyed with" influence, hardly suprising. Crushed stones huh? They actually pulled that shit on you, like uh, how and where? I say to raise the power and gas rates a little bit to pay for manual vegetation removal, maybe we could employ some homeless people, prisoners, pay them more as they get more production, what do you think. And I do not mean chain gangs or any of that, I mean Atco trailers out in the bush, with showers and good food. How about that?

Climber, you seem to have some good choice words for BC Hydro, and have pointed out their malleability when it comes to public pressure - largely because they are owned by us - the public. We have a lot of say on how and what they do - if we chose to involve ourselves. Kinder Morgan obviously pays little heed to the concerns of British Columbians - and they are in the business of wrecking the environment - and other life forms (humans not excluded) - for profit. Why are you saving all your venom for the lesser evil? I don't suppose you are benefitting from their abuse of you - the loyalty you show is incredulous.

I am late in, so forgive me if I repeat any thoughts already presented.
I heard the proposed McKenzie Valley Pipeline Upgrade has all of the pipes going to the USA.
We can't do that. It would be stupid to only have one customer, when you can have two.
It's necessary for us to get a pipeline to the west coast, so that we have a bargaining chip against the Americans.
I don't care where it goes. I hope it goes to the best location to maximise our profits as a Nation.

It's okay Ron. We knew you didn't have anything meaningful to contribute before you got here and failed to contribute anything meaningful.

I hope I did contribute the fact that we have to have a shunt line of energy to the West Coast in order to service the China market.
That is why I promote a pipeline to the west coast somewhere.

But Ron, you're failing to recognize the fact that the other key issue here is a LNG port to IMPORT natural gas. Isn't it kind of crazy that we're selling our natural resources to another country so rapidly that we'll soon have to take that step to meet our "own" needs.

Wouldn't it me more prudent to respond to Canada's needs first and foremost even if it meant Alberta's Heritage Fund wouldn't grow as fast as it is now. Maybe a contintental market isn't such a good idea after all. It's not just a question of shipping to China.

Christopher Pollen: Thanks for this very informative article!

Avicenna,
Thanks for the heads-up on the Terasen pipeline. Because of you, I will check to see how close the rainbow trout that my family catches and eats are to the terasen transmission line. It makes me feel extra safe knowing that the Bush family is in charge of the company spraying herbicides in my neighbourhood.

Just another "status quo system" scheme that will wind up effectively selling off yet even more of our precious energy resources to "foreign" corporate interests", in this case at the additional expense of further driving immense eco-system damage to the tar sands extended area in Alberta, instead of husbanding it for our own independant development and future generation needs, in a manner and at a exploitation rate perhaps less damaging.

Hopefully, FNs will help our own national interest forestall, even kill it. Though I am not inclined certainly to count on it, for FN economic needs, given their poverty rates and the degree to which they have been shut out of the economy by white man's capitalism , plus their own population growth rates tend to make them desparate for any kind of a share of the economic pie. (And they have those amongst their own, given this unequal reality they are locked into in the apartheid system of Canada, those who would love to be self-serving "get rich quick capitalists" too, no doubt.)

And FU Clamber and your neocon wingnut pals, I'll match your experience with Native citizens over a long lifetime across Western Canada anytime, so forget that "me, smoke peace pipe and get drunk with them" bullshite with which you seek to puff up your wingnut self. I'd have to hear the assessment of Native's who have known and experienced you first, before you got any credibility with me for knowledge of their interests. You don't impress me with your savvy of this issue at all. About as much as IAMC and Logjam 603, who have major logjams both in their grey cell flow.

Avicenna, on the other hand, makes way more sense to me.

Thank you, Coyote! I'd been looking for a way to express my disagreement with the bad tempered rants climber has been spouting here. You said it perfectly.

...As usural, you are right on on this one Coyote. You have spoken the sentiments of many...

Peace "C"

You know climber, in your posts, you were calling people liars and promoting the developement of ecologically harmful industry (not a surprise, given your line of work), and to top it off, suggesting your "true" understanding on the FN condition here in Canada. Give me a break dude... The only ones to really understand the FN condition, is First Nations.

I only thank you for exposing the other side more clearly...but what Coyote said to you, is indeed good for you...

Peace

RTB

...comma between the "on's)in above post.

...ooops

RTB

Much agreed with your assessment, Coyote. Climber has reminded me of my former foul mouthed self some months ago. I have since changed... :-) just a little :-> It helps, I'm sure as even climber would agree, to speak the language of the land.

The fact with Morgan Kindle, and I hope you are all reading this one, is that they are no longer a public company, but have been bought out by Goldman Sachs (U.S. broker house) and Carlye. Anyone remember 911's Carlye defence corp, the one GWB senior and junior heavily invested in? One and the same.

BC gas went to U.S. based Teresen thanks to "Honorable" Emerson for his greedy directorship for Teresen shares bribe, then Teresen got bought out by Morgan Kindle which has since gone private by the way of being bought out by Sachs and Carlyle. All of those right wing fanatics can rest easy now, that our gas services that served well over 40% of BC's homes is now owned by the likes of the Bush family (and the Saudi's, too!).

And are these greedy psychopaths stopping there? Nope! They don't just want to own the little veins and capillaries of pipe... they want to own the arteries too!

So while dumb as a post posters like IMAC have got it "all figured out" as to our resources travelling to two customers, perhaps this same slowpoke should be asking besides where its going, "gee whiz, who's making all that money!" Its not Canadian corps, to be sure. And its not the BC govy of which, in case the likes of IMAC and Capitalism has been sniffing to much gas and glue, WE OWN!!! (or once used to)

Its sad for me to half to tell brainards like Capitalism to "follow the paper trail", but FOLLOW THE PAPER TRAIL!!! When you finally get around to it, Cap & Ron, you'll see the money going south, not north which brings me to my next point. You are either country men, or you both belong somewhere else. If you are both sold on the globalization of capitalism over whats best for this country and world on all levels, then what can I say? You can both move south or in climber lingo, fuk right off.

Duncan, what you are pointing out is a universal phenomenon of imperialism. The ruling classes and their sucker-bait in the neo-colonies bow to the Imperial Master and gleefully sell their country down the drain for a seat at the far end of the table. The working people, on the other hand, are the ones who defend their country asainst this treason. I am not a nationalist, by the way. But a country is not a state or its ruling class. It is a people and the rulers, by their treachery, are not part of the people. The proper name for them is Quisling.

......WOW, you know who, is finally gone. It feels sooooo good. (deep breath...) Maybe he has gone to do some logging blogging...

Quisling: "traitor", someone who collaborates with the invaders of his country, especially by serving in a puppet government... Good name anarcho.

Good post Duncan, and yes, the money is going south, so is our water, trees, and our precious wildlife who's habitat is being threatened by US industries at the same time as they are being exploited by US trophy hunters.

The United States has run out of almost everything except people. They truly have a huge appetite. Methinks, if allowed to go on, it could happen to us...

This pipeline is a massive threat to the earth. Thanks to the Tyee, we have a chance to share our concerns...

Peace brother,

RTB

Appreciate your thoughts, RTB. But something tells me I won't be at peace, at least publicly, for a long, long time. Its just not me to reflect calm in chaos. Its a most excellent aspiration, however, one worth pursuing at every turn. :-)

As for your thoughts, anarcho, I completely agree with you. To say that one country is more privileged over another is to through equality out the window, which is what nationism does, in some ways, in its negative light.

So while I agree with your perspective and reasoning of not being a nationalist, I, like Coyote and others, see the best interests of the lands we live on, best handled by those who live there (although its definitely not a golden rule). And on that note, I'm not much on greedy warmongers like bush & Co. calling the shots or prospering on the deveastation of our environments here in Canada. And if that takes a good dose of nationalism to inspire the rightful rule of these lands to those who actually live here, so be it. I'm a nationalist.

Nations or states, if you will, are ideals that change with the people and the lands that support them. When I think of Canada, I think of a nation that best reflects the worlds civilizations as a whole (not separate from the needs and people of the world, but deeply connected). A third are English, a fourth are French, the rest are from everywhere else in the world.

We are bilingual and multicultural because we know that we are as men and women, as a nation, equals, regardless of our roots, regardless of whether or not we are rich or poor, regardless of age, sex, or what we do for a living (sorry if its all to Lib for you self serving Cons). And I can tell you all with certainty, I am not at peace with those who neither have the morality or principles within their ideology to see these facts from fiction.

So while I completely agree with anarcho's slant on why he/she is not a nationalist, I also see the need for people to bond to an identity based on an ideal that comes from the very lands we live on just as Coyote does. Does China or the U.S. know whats best for our countrysides? Does Sachs and Carlyle know whats best for BC's environment? I think not. Money is easily pissed away and devalued. The environment is not.

Look at our flag. Look at that maple leaf. It is a symbol that the people that live on these lands identify with these truths. Look at our ancestors who handed down our constitutions and institutions that have made human life easier for the generations to come. Their efforts are not wasted on me, as I'm sure they aren't wasted on the rest of you, except for maybe those who continually wish to benefit "at everyone elses expense" and why? They don't appreciate or care about how or why it got here. The selfish ones just take, not questioning what the cost will be for their selfishness.

So when I see our flag in the wind, I think about this countries history, the aspirations of those who made this nation what it is, good or bad, learn from their mistakes, but above all, try to build on their successes like anyone else who cares about their origins should. The ideologies of past leaders and followers of these nations, these provinces, its people, my family and home. And we've been lucky. Very, very, lucky (perhaps becuase our human history here is so short). So lets count our blessings and help to preserve and protect the best of what we have for our ancestors and the generations to come... for this nation, this country is one of the best chances we've got to lead the world, BY EXAMPLE.

Coyote, you stupid fuk, in this thread I have pointed out abuse of govt. funds to F.N.s, called for native women and other natives not connected to band councils to share in the wealth. I have expressed willingness to see help for F.N.s to be self sufficient. I have proposed that unfortunate segments of our society be working manually removing vegatation on r.o.w.s instead of using herbicides. For that you call me a neocon, you are a gold plated mutt, plain and simple.

Wups! I forgot First nations in all of this. Quite right to remember. We are a nation of nations. And in this light, this country has one of the best opportunities of all to be a beacon of light in a world filling with doubt simply because we have ties to every country in this world through our immigration policies. I can guarantee that it won't happen by following U.S. foreign policy until Bush & Co. is replaced by those who aren't war hawks, those who prosper off of war as Bush and Cheney does. And with this current internationally embarrassing government we now have, thats exactly what we have.

I saw two leader hopefuls that were indeed, fit to lead this nation last night on CTV sat. At the Lib convention in Vancouver, two men had the emotions and savy it took to govern this nation. Both of them are without a doubt, true Canadians and their actions have showed it throughout their lives in public life. Both were very emotional. One with love of this country that he could not hide. Stephane Dion. The other was angry, angry with Harper and he could not hide it either. Ken Dryden. Either one has what it takes to win a majority. As for the rest... their records reveal their flaws. My opinion, anyways.

No, climber, he called you a lot of other things, but not a neo con. (he did, however, compare your intelligence with a couple :-)

Seriously, I don't have to many problems with what you are saying myself... its just how you say it, man. Don't mean to be your daddy, but... you've got to tone down those nasty ways of saying thing's dude, y'know? You aren't talking to a bunch of drinking buddies at a card table, here. (geez, come to think of it, I've got a bit of a potty mouth myself)

Ehhh, Clamber, (Clamber: to climb or crawl clumsily over anything, in a confused manner.)most of us here, outside of your sheepdip wingnut circle, know precisely who the real dumb fuk is here. But we also understand, in your wee mind, you are the only one marching in step.

Clamber on. Know ye it or not, you serve a purpose here. It's why we tolerate you at all. You help make clear to the readership here, precisely what we in the progressive, left, anti-war, environmental and progressive national reconsiliation and unity movement are having to deal with. You examplify the nature of the real enemy we are up against.

A pathetic piece of work, you and your IAMC, Logjam and other neoconazi, quisling/traitorous pals.

We are onto you, of course. And others daily here, who read these pages, turn onto you as well.

Thanks for the service, goof. Prattle on. With every word you utter, you help sink your own ship.

Duncan, thanks, I'll try to tone it down, I am sorry I have called people names, it takes away from my arguements, and is impolite. It really frustrates me to listen to people who seem to have little regard for the people and communities who are dependent on resource extraction in this province. I lived in the GVRD most of my life, but lived in the bush as a kid and worked out of town many times before I finally moved to the Charlottes. These experiences gave me a different way of looking at things, I guess. I think that many who live in the cities are so disconnected from the physical realities of what it takes to make Canadian society function that they cannot connect the dots. This attitude that they, by where they live and what they do for a living are somehow above it all, is puzzling. The self rightous behaviour and the "my shit doesn't stink" prevents understanding. Instead of being involved in logging, or even having nieghbors who are involved, or ranchers, or drillers, miners etc. these fellow British Columbians may as well be as remote as Iraquis on t.v. Because of this, I feel, these urban dwellers call for an end to clearcutting, no oil exploration, etc., or in this case, no new pipelines, without thinking of those people they do not know or relate to. The northcoast area of B.C. has had the highest unemployment in the province, the new mines proposed, the new superport in Rupert, the new terminal in Kitimat, etc. will all provide high paying blue collar jobs. This means some stability for northwest communities, a needed and good thing.

Climber, I think if you have been following the discussions here a lot of us have similar backgrounds as yours and you are unfairly characterizing what we believe. In fact you seem to insist upon creating differences between yourself and us by making it into an either-or situation. This is the fallacy of the false dichotomy. It is not a choice of giving the corporations a free reign or no development at all. There is a third choice, intelligent development that minimizes ecological damage and creates lasting employment. As in all situations in life, we can learn from others who have taken some of the steps we would like to take. In this regard we should examine how the Europeans do things.

http://www.turtleisland.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=6329 Here is a good, positive thing, these people worked hard for this, good for them. This is what I want to see for the F.N.s of this province.

Climber, one other thing to add to what I just wrote. There is something called science. While science is not infallible and is always open to revision, it is not something we can cherry pick. That is, we cannot use science where it pleases us and reject it where it goes against our prejudices. To do so would be rank hypocrisy, and for someone who has been accusing enviros of such, you should not wish to be guilty of that. Now, we have the sciences of ecology, botany, biology, ethno-botany, entomology etc. The rational environmental viewpoint, a viewpoint that you seem to have a great difficulty with, is based upon the findings of these sciences. So maybe you should argue with those scientists and not us?

I see pipelines carrying any of our natural resources (Alberta's and the Yukon's too) as a highway. I want no further private highways in this province. We have enough resources and enough intelligence to create lasting jobs with good controls in these industries. The Socreds turning of the highways over to private contrators has (in essence) privatized those highways. They are in deplorable shape. I have known many people who work for different private highway contractors. These people have all said the same things: the private companies disband and form a new corporation if their is any hint of unionization. The new company is really the same old company with a different name. The companies run roughshod over their employees and the province. They want none of them to spend 10 minutes lift a shovel to clear a culvert or to fix any problems that they could easily fix outside of their specific contracts - like filling potholes with a shovel and hot asphalt. A culvert becomes blocked, the roadbed is undermined, the road sags and makes the pothole that they just filled reappear. I would rather have people who were proudly working for the province and citizens of BC to be building and maintaining our natural resource pipelines than some multinational corporation with a 5, 10, or 20-year plan. I know one man who works for oneof these private companies that built the coquihalla highway. They were falling behind, so he was ordered to use snow as road-fill. The section of the highway where this occurred had waves in it and it could be quite trecherous when there are cross-winds. I think they have done some repair work to it, but it will probably settle some more.... This is what private contracting has brought us. It is always about short-term bottom-line goals.

Another point: We have seen the deaths and manglings in the forest industry that the Liberal government's self-regulation has brought. Self-regulation is no regulation at all.

[ Sorry, I am quoting myself because of poor grammar that needs some cleaning up. My computer is in a high taffic area and it seems to affect my work].

Here is a better read:

Unlike how it was done when it was a crown corporation: the road repair companies want none of their employees to spend any time on road maintenance outside of contractual obligations. The companies want no-one to lift a shovel to clear a culvert (or to fix any problems) that the employees could easily take care of in the course of their day's work. For example: when not filling potholes with a shovel, the same employee could just as easily spend a couple of minutes clearing a bit of a ditch or a culvert nearby while waiting for the asphalt truck etc. Tne culvert or ditch becomes blocked, the roadbed is further undermined, the road weakens, sags, and the pothole that they just filled reappears next winter...go figure!

Sharing Is Good, the categories for logging fatalities have changed, now guys killed in plane crashes, driving to work are included. Before it used to be just those killed or injured actually logging. The industry has always been bad for fatalities, better now than the old days. In the past if a man was killed at work, nothing stopped, they kept going and took his body out after work. The W.C.B. makes the rules, there is no self regulation as far as the rules go. Many problems exist in this line of work, at least get the facts straight. There are no private paved highways in B.C., they are all owned by the province. Some highways are in better shape than others, for sure, so are some roads. Unionization is no garuantee of anything, look at the City of Vancouver engineering dept. (or any of its divisions for that matter), what a joke. They are hardcore dog fukers, dreadfull. If they gave up on the cult of laziness the city streets would be in awesome shape, with all the guys and equipment the city has. Your example of a guy clearing a culvert with a shovel while waiting for the blacktop truck, like a union Highways Dept. guy would do that either. Have you personally worked on roads or even watched these guys when you were at work having lunch or something? Like what is the basis of your actual knowledge?

CLimber, the following is from the WCB inquiry into forest industry practices tabled this summer:

Not TOO impressive, dude!

Wasn't defending anything, just stating facts, like I said "Many problems exist in this line of work". This release confirms what I was saying about the collection of statistics, deaths in log towing, hi-way logging trucks, sawmills would not be counted before. Now they are, one death is too many, now they are all called logging deaths instead of marine, transportation or manufacturing deaths, follow me, Dude?

NO question I agree that the industry isn't doing a very good job of handling safety issues...I have a notion Work Safe BC (the new name of the WCB) ain't doing much of job correcting it either...because it's in the pocket of the employers.

For example, given the situation in the woods, does this make much sense to you:

Michael Kane
Vancouver Sun

Friday, July 28, 2006

Double digit investment returns and stable injury rates could mean cuts as high as 20 per cent in employer contribution rates for workers' compensation.

WorkSafeBC says the cuts are primarily possible because its $10.6-billion investment portfolio has generated gains of 12.5 per cent, 10.3 per cent and 13.4 per cent over the past three years.

The workers' compensation board estimates it has about $8 billion in liabilities -- money owed to injured workers and pensioners over the next 40 years -- and needs a 25-per-cent or $2-billion cushion to protect itself against potential investment losses.

While its portfolio is conservatively invested with about 45 per cent in fixed income, 45 per cent in equities and 10 per cent in real estate, it recorded losses of 2.4 per cent in 2002 and 0.9 per cent in 2001, following the dot-com stock market collapse.

On Thursday the provincial agency released a preliminary forecast of a 9.8-per-cent decrease in the employers' average base rate for 2007 to $1.71 per $100 of payroll up to $64,000 per worker.

That compares to $1.90 this year and an average base rate of $2.31 in 2000.

"This is a relatively good news story for B.C. employers because their rates will be among the lowest in Canada," said chief financial officer Sid Fattedad. Preliminary rates for 2007 have been posted at $1.47 in Alberta but are expected to be more than $2.30 in Ontario and above $1.80 in Quebec.

B.C.'s proposed rates vary by industry sector and range from cuts as high as 20 per cent in construction, sawmills and paper mills to increases as high as 20 per cent for gas stations which were recently pilloried by WorkSafeBC for failing to adequately protect workers from the dangers of working alone or at night.

Some 68 per cent of employers are expected to see their rates go down while 10 per cent will pay the same and 22 per cent face increases. Preliminary rates were released Thursday to help employers anticipate their likely costs, but may differ when final rates are set in October.

The anticipated gain for construction employers was welcomed by Peter Simpson, chief executive of the Greater Vancouver Home Builders' Association, who said it reflects the industry's emphasis on safety issues and compliance.

"But we still have a long way to go," Simpson said Thursday. "I am still passing construction sites where people are working on roofs with no safety harnesses or fall restraints. They are taking their lives in their hands."

Fattedad said premiums are primarily driven by injury costs. Industries can improve their rates by improving safety, and through effective return-to-work and disability management programs.

While construction injury rates have not been rising, the dramatic growth in the size of the industry's payroll base is a contributor to lower rates, he said in an interview.

Road construction, trucking, public schools, hotels and supermarkets are expected to see 15-per-cent reductions and there will also be lower rates in retail, universities, restaurants and local government.

Industries whose rates are projected to increase include gas stations, department stores and ferry services. Electrical utilities and forestry will see their rates remain virtually unchanged.

Investments and Investment losses? While workers are being denied benefits and the situation in the woods is as it is. Something really wrong here climber.

GWest, you do not have to tell me there are very ugly problems with WCB (I refuse to call it the new name), nothing new. Back in 1962 there were so many compliants W.A.C. got a Royal Commission to investigate them. Gordo has really helped them to fuk over injured workers, with the no-appeal star chambers and the reduction in injury pay, percentage of loss, etc. Construction has really changed though, its true, I used to work it back in the '80s and went back for a little bit in '04. Night and day, had to wear a body harness all day, heights or no heights, no fukin around at all, no concrete pump hose in one hand and a beer in the other, thats for damn sure. Once they sent me home at 10am cause I violated safety rules by walking to close to an open excavation. The safety officer and the superintendent told me they have a no tolerance thing going because they don't want any more fatalities ever (this company had one a few years before), also helps keep the comp. rate down as well. Logging has so many more variables than construction, further away from hospitals if someone is hurt, for starters. The base rate for logging is about 7%, a long way from the average quoted in your link. Back in '94 I cut myself pretty bad, that put my boss over 10%. W.C.B. treated me like shit of course, good thing I had friends and I recovered. There are some decent caring people at WCB, but when it comes to money for injury (and I am not talking about suspiciuos claims, I mean blood all over the place type of thing) the evil ones are in charge.

And yet the turkeys hold back a 2 billion dollar cushion in case their bloody 'investments' turn sour - what a load of crap. They should have nothing in the fund but an allocation for pensions and current liabilities - nothing but short term investments - this is supposed to be an operation for 'workers' for God's sakes.

Like everything else Campbell does, if it doesn't have the prospect of making a killing he wants nothing to do with it.

Thank you, GWest, for helping climber understand what I meant when I said self-regulation is no regulation at all.

Further, I have three good friends (and numerous acquaitances) who had worked for the Department of Highways. One friend was an engineer; the another, a surveyor; and, the third drove truck. I know several people who work either as sub-contractors or as employees of contractors for our highways now. A good friend of mine is a bridge inspector. My knowledge of highways is real. It is the people who work for the contractors who used to work for Dept. of Highways that are saying that the maintenance is not as good as it used to be and that because of it and the increased logging and mining traffic, the roads are falling apart.

Regarding privately owned highways: I said in my first sentence that "I see pipelines carrying any of our natural resources as a highway." Then I said that I didn't want any more highways privatized. Terasen is privatized and controlled by Bush and his cronies, the management of the ferries (used to be part of our highways) now attempted to be spun off to private industry. BC Rail sold for a song and (though not a highway, it transports our natural resources) is now in private hands and is unsafely managed. What used to be BC Rail is making buckets of cash for its new owners - Americans.

So, you see, I do have my facts straight.

As you have attacked/questioned my personal integrity, I will tell you a bit about myself: though I owe you nothing. I have 2 degrees and 7.5 years of post-secondary education. While going to school, most of the time I was also working full or part-time. I began working in my step-father's corner grocery store when I was 7 years old, and I worked my grandfoather's dairy farm in my teens. I have commercially fished, I have logged, I have driven ambulances and I have worked in gas stations. I have owned private companies and I have personally employed as many as 35 people at a time in the contruction industry.

I have also worked in the public sector. Both in the private sector and in the public sector, I have had workaholic tendencies and I have been an overachiever. Now, with some health issues resulting from 43 years of over-working, I have learned that I must slow down a bit and that i should have years ago. My expectations of others is a bit healthier. After-all, if all there is to life is work and worry, then what is the point? So, I expect others to work, just not 70-80 hours a week like I have spent decades doing. I have been a donater of time and energy to the province and to my community.

Now, until I worked in the public sector, I used to think like you, that public sector workers were lazy. I believed the same about union workers until I worked with some of them as I was working my way through engineering school. I was dead wrong. I have seen no more laziness in the public sector than I have seen in the private sector. However, in the public sector, there are not stock-holders siphoning off the profits for themselves. Reasonable wages with reasonable pensions can be paid and money made or saved by not paying huge wages to corporate executives and major stock-holders goes directly back to the taxpayer. I have learned that most people are pretty conscientious: they want to be able to take pride in their work. They want to do a good day's work and they want the opportunity for advancement. They are probably little different than you. I have learned that when working people are continually talked down towards, or when they have been maliciously attacked by the press and by people with an agenda to squeeze every last bit of work out of them without providing fair remuneration, then those people become jaded. They start looking for ways to copulate with canines.

I will continue to attempt speaking in a respectful manner to you; will you do the same toward me?

My previous reply is meant mainly for Climber as it is trailing away from the topic at hand and is mostly qualifiers about things I have said earlier and about me as Climber called my knowledge into question.

I never questioned your integrity S.I.G., never, I only said to get your facts straight about WCB stats. I did call your knowledge into question though, and I cannot forget what I have seen. You know what your friends have told you about roads and bridges, and yes the roads are generally getting worse, they are right. I hardly think they would tell you about sleeping in the work truck or leaving early etc., thats ok, you say you have not done it or seen it, fine. You have worked a lot, I respect that. I take pride in what I do, have worked union, have seen some union guys work hard but only in special circumstances. The opinion I have is pretty well shared by guys that actually work, outside and all that, I don't get this from reading the Province. No hard feelings buddy, sorry if I slighted you. Now about this pipeline and herbicides, I sure hope you don't eat blackberries from along railways and rows. And I hope the link from Avicenna wasn't the first you heard of herbicides. What do you think of my ideas about putting homeless people and others to work manually removing vegetation along rows instead of using herbicides?

Climber,

I appreciate your not wanting to be deliberately argumentative with another (me) who has arrived at his understanding of the world through both, sweat and research.

I have certainly heard of herbicides, I just didn't know that they were used to keep trees off of the gas transmission lines. I have good friends who hunt deer along a section of the Terasen pipeline that has only been in place for about 12 years. They will be pleased to hear it's being sprayed by a number of nasties (including agent orange).

I personally believe it takes a great number of lazy people in the public sector to make up for 7% - 20% annual return on their investment that stockholders hope to make with crown corporations that have been privatized. Until Gordon Campbell came in and tried to privatize our auto insurance: there weren't huge dividend checks paid to the peolpe who run that crown corp also. What right have they to give away our money because there was little snow one year? I see the same problems and more with running this new private pipeline through the reserves - land that should not belong to us.

I think that most of the unemployed (stret) people who are presently unemployed are probably mostly unemployable at present. I think that many of them have personal/health issues that must be overcome before they can provide steady work. Now if you were to provide training and equipment are somewhat fun to operate and offer transferable skills (like quads with sidebar cutters and some 4-WD tractors with brush hogs), pay them well and put them up in reasonable quarters with decent food (like loggers get), then you might get a few more workers than if you say I want a bunch of weed-pickers to ride on the back of this flatdeck out to the bush to work in difficult conditions and I am going to pay you minimum wage. You and I may have lined up for the challenge, but i don't think any silver-spooned corporate exec (or their progeny) ever would. Further, street people are often ounhealthy and working in the bush is not as easy for them as it is for someone who has been eating and sleeping reasonably well. Why should they pick weeds on pipelines owned by wealthy Americans, anyway?

Like I said, Atco trailers with showers and good food. Some of these people can make it with help. Terasen and B.C. Hydro use machines where they can, Hydroaxes, a massive machine with a flail mower mounted on a loader, like a 966 or 980 size. When the ground gets ugly they can't work. I used a chainsaw, some guys used brush saws, whatever, its all work, mostly they are after trees. Why should they slash vegetation on pipelines, hmmm, cause it beats the snot outta living on the street, going without decent food and shelter. And all the other things that tend to go with it.

climber
I think part of the problem with your kind of solution is not that there is anything the matter with the work. It's perfectly honourable and no one who works with their hands ought to feel second class in any decent civilized society. The problem is the suggestion that one class - the managerial one or the bureaucratic one or the political or the legal one should be telling another class of people what they 'have' to do.

I would suggest, if your idea were structured in such a way that that kind of work paid a decent living wage, that the jobs wouldn't go to the people you want to help climber.

There is a huge disconnect between what 'we' in the world of work - people with enough self confidence and guts to argue for our own interests - think will be a solution for others and what those other folks - the people we say we want to help - are ready to and capable of doing.

It amounts to the difference between tolerating someone and actually empathizing with that person and allowing them to find a way (if they can) to cope with their own demons.

So, let’s get hydro to set up a program to replace their herbicide vegetation control with well-paid manual labourers and lets see what happens – but don’t ‘make it an enforced ‘work for welfare’ kind of boondoggle. I just don’t think we’ve reached the point (in this day and age) where such a program would be anything but force majeure to get a problem out from under our noses; we’ve created a social structure that has a lot of victims and we need to find better ways to let those people continue to have a half decent life without herding them into camps.

I don’t know what the answer is – but I don’t think a society call continue to call itself free if it ends up recreating Mike Harris’s Ontario.

DO you see what I'm driving at?

Climber, I've been a BCGEU member for 22 years, and I take pride in my work. I like my job, and I work my butt off doing it, too. How dare you generalize about an entire group of people based on some few things you claim to have seen? Or should I conclude that every person in YOUR line of work is a boor too, based on your behavior?

How dare I, holy fuk, you must be one in a million. Few things I have seen, you mean that I can remember, BCGEU, allright, that includes ferry workers, need I go on? Lets see, they sank the pride of the fleet last year, hows that for the prize?, I was on that ship a month before she went down. While waiting to unload we watched as three men watched thier female co worker unchain the heavy trucks and trailers, by herself. Any man that lets a woman unhook load binders and coil up 1/2 inch chain by herself is a cull, in my books. Work your butt off, Relayer, really, like you sweat, breathe hard, sore at the end of the day, shrug off the cuts and bruises? Tell me what it is you do.

Right, like I need to compare jobs and responsibilities with an anti-union wingnut like you. You know nothing but whats been your own experience, and thus think you've seen the world, and known it's people. And you just can't manage to post anything in here without trying to belittle someone or something, can you? It's at times like this I wish this format had an "ignore" feature, but as long as you're going to be here, would you please at least try to make your case without being so inflammatory, demeaning, and bloody rude?

...not a tall order relayer, if fact excellent sugestion for climber.

Peace dude

RTB

No Climber, you are being less than entirely honest with us again, and attempting to play on our otherwise generally tolerant natures. Your actions and words speak loud enough to dispel this attempted misconception though. You ARE here being deliberately argumentative.

Some of us have been writing here for a few years now, and we know when someone is here being deliberately disruptive, has little or nothing in common with the pro-working class, pro-peace, pro-egalitarian, and otherwise generally green and left political community here. And you are clearly not here either because you essentially agree in this broad outline with us, or even to engage with us in a useful and elucidating dialogue. (And we have had a lot of right wingnuts here over the last few years, and still have, playing the same essential role as yourself, and which you echo loudly in our sensibilities.) You ARE merely here to be disruptive and insulting.

I have myself, for example, been a member of the BCGEU and other public service unions (ICTU and CAW), and I "know" very well how hard these folks in fact work for and deserve their money. (I know, I know, you work hard, It's always the other fellows who don't.) Now, that may be a problem for you, that working people should be organized and earn decent money, but it is not for those of us who raised families and lived materially and otherwise decent lives with the assistance of OUR trade unions. And we KNOW an anti-union wingnut when we see one, believe me. (If it walks like a wingnut, talks and acts like one, it's probably a wingnut. It's one of those things which you don't get to define or play games with, but we all get to make our own judgements of you.)

You should leave these pages and go where you have more in common with the folks who make up those threads. You have little to nothing in common with us, scarcely at all, most of us dislike you, you serve no intellectually useful or stimulating purpose here, and so far as I am concerned anyway, should just drop off the planet. :-)

You will get nothing but insults here, firstly because it's all you give out, and you have nothing to say we are in the least interested in hearing.

NOTE: I downloaded a free spell check programme which checks my inadvertent spelling in windows forms, such as the Tyee comment form. Very good and easy to use. Called iespell, for Internet Explorer. (Firefox now comes with its own.)

RTB, kindly mind your own business, and if you want to point fingers, talk to the biggest insulter of all on this site, Coyote. He has called me a neocon nazi, a goof, a quisling, wingnut, just on this thread alone. But of course thats fine with you right? Relayer, calm down, I am not anti union, just stating the obviuos, well known facts. Just keep doing whatever it is you do but cannot say and be satisfied with that. I cannot stand to see the leaders of the unions that make up the BCGEU ever say the words "hard working" to describe thier members. It is bullshit. Did I call you any names?

Climer is still at it. Wonder what it is he keeps climbing? Folks have the right to collective bargaining and lots of us have taken that route. A great number of benefits for non union persons came as the result of unions. Union busting arguments wasn't what this story started oput to be. should climber keep rambling amybe the editor will cut her/him off.
and thanks for the email spell checker. God knows I can use it.

Coyote, I am so sorry I don't meet with your approval, you have a lock on the truth and are running this site I see. You do not have anything close to a tolerant nature, you cannot stand to hear anything that runs a little against the "truth", you have much in common with those you despise, much. You are a rude man, coarse and insulting, now if you can speak without hurling the usual tired old insults around, perhaps I would think more of you. I do not have to justify my being here to you, understand? Unions were instrumental in gaining decent pay and working condititions for working people, I know a lot about union history . Jack Munro was pretty dismissive of the newer public sector unions in this province, he was right when he said "who are they to tell us (the IWA at the time) what to do, they never had to fight, they want to change the world, I just want more money for my guys" Thats the difference, meat and potatoes or airy little fantasies.

Jack Munro sold out
the regional museum,
for an opening at daycare,
sold out the grapple operator
on the landing, sold out the secretaries
headed for lunch, the gill netters, instrument
technicians, welders
and geologists

He sold out the palsied
and the athlete, sold out the accountant at her desk
and the man wild in the street
who knows he has lost control

Jack Munro sold out this province
house by house,
district by district,
kilometre by kilometre."

from: The Face of Jack Munro

(for Jerry)

The Face of Jack Munro

by Tom Wayman
Harbour Publishing
Madeira Park B.C.

Which is what you don't get Climber. It is your sociopath nature at work.

If it was indeed just me, you could well ignore the opinion and simply pass it off as a dissenting voice, no doubt-, or even just gas. (I certainly do that with you.) But when the criticism of one is as widespread and universal as it is about yourself here, save for the other dingnuts, that one, even were it me, might think something else is at work and maybe-, just maybe, were you rational, you might want to consider this opinion of yourself more carefully.

Have a nice day. :-)

And as for Jack Munro, in my view of the man, the betrayer of Operation Solidarity and working people generally, is a demonstration we should all be aware of, probably especially todays trade unionists, that even trade unions, no doubt, have those who have passed through their midst, even been "leaders" so-called, of whom we have reason to be ashamed. And it is fitting of course, that such an anti-labour person as yourself should speak such high praise for Jack Munro. None such will pass many lips here, from the likes of me certainly. And it speaks additional volumes about Jack, and you, as well.

Good piece, eh bob the cat? That's a piece about Munro I've not come across before. We remember, don't we? And there are still too many about like him in the "house of labour leaders" yet, needing to be dealt with and/or put out to pasture.

In that Great Awakening on the streets, yet hopefully before we pass on to our just rewards, eh brother? Looking up at the grass from the wrong side. 8-D LOL.

And sorry for diverting the intention of this thread, which was to be devoted to the important economic and social needs of our Native brothers and sisters.

Coyote, back to the pipeline story now.http://www.kitimatlng.com/code/navigate.asp?Id=40 Here is the Haisla F.N. taking care of its own important economic and social needs. This band, along with the Mcleod lake F.N. who are heavily into logging and roadbuilding for themselves (see link I posted before) and drilling contractors with thier own company are doing something positive. This is the future, F.N.s providing employment for themselves and profits to do thier own thing. Are the Haisla quislings, traitors and so on, cause they support huge expansion for Kitimats port?, suck it up, its going to happen. This kind of actual, real wealth creation will eventually mean independence for F.N.s, they will be calling thier own tunes, not beholden to the federal govt. or do gooders who use them for thier own enviromental activism. Are these logging and pipeline accepting Natives your brothers and sisters now Coyote? Jack Munro called bullshit on the solidarity thing, what, did you really think you could overthrow Bennett Jr. and create a workers paradise?, give me a fuking break, thats what elections are for. And the NDP that you finally got in ( I voted for them too) fuked up royally. So bad in fact they paved the way for the nasty Gordo, for years.

I accept, and have long advocated for, in fact, that "First Nations" need their own land and resource base, which is the real source of wealth and security for all peoples, along with controls over their own fisheries and water resources. Land and resources, as much as "the people" themselves, perhaps even more, are the foundation of any "nation" and/ or "economy". Indeed, a nation of people cannot exist in isolation from a land and resource base, which has been the problem of the Jews for example, again the real source of all wealth, along with the labour applied to those resources, as the source even of all later so-called paper wealth of any real representative value.

So, that's my fundamental position re First Nations, as I a "white man" understand the interests and needs here, of all peoples, including my own. And what I want for myself and my own, I understand the need to concede to others, assuming that we can work out a "sharing" agreement and arrangement re same, in the real world of the present.

What natives do thereafter with their land base and resource share is basically then up to them, again coming to agreements and understandings where they AND we impact and interface with each other, in that same real present world. And I tend to assume they will want to develop a "modern" economy and systems, rather than attempt a return to an ancient one, though they may want to do a mixture, or something entirely different. That's for them to work out collectively, as it is with us. And I again tend to assume they will fuk up no less than we do in that, in terms of their natural environment and the social/class pressures and realities that they have "likely" inherited within what is at least initially likely to be a "capitalist" system. As we have.

Though I also expect, not likely wishing to be as sucked into the same "foreign" controlled, US dominated system as we "white" Canadians have allowed and are coming to regret, that they MAY want to manage things a little differently, with some different priorities, having been severely bitten once by our apartheid regime, that they MAY actually do a better job of maintaining the Independence of their nation than we have our own. I hope so. They would have to have really not been paying attention to our major fuk ups, to fuk up environmentally and in terms of their own self-sufficient future "national autonomy development", as badly as we have in terms of our relationship with the US Empire. We are about nearly as alienated from our land and resource base in fact, for example, having given much of our control of that over to the US Empire, not unlike as happened to them vis a vis ourselves and them, in another time.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

In any case, given victory in the coming struggle for them to re-secure control over a meaningful land and resource base, the REAL foundation of an INDEPENDENT economy, at which I wish them well, whatever form they thereafter decide themselves to proceed in, I hope we can likewise out of our own coming struggle with the US Empire to re-secure control over our own land and resource base, continue and improve upon a nation to nation relationship with First Nations in the direction of strengthening a single country "Canada" that better serves both our interests. (A whole bunch of single smaller nations, such as could yet devolve out of this country yet, given the separate provincial and regional, and frustrated national (Quebec and First Nations) pressures and resentments within current Canada, in my view, would all be even more vulnerable to eventual absorption/integration into the great maw of the US Empire colossus.)

Which, in my opinion, means that at some point, we are going to have to deal with the problem of the "outdated" and no longer "progressive", but "backward" developing "capitalist system" itself. Out of which we can hopefully build a more "egalitarian and truly extended democratic" social and economic system, better serving the needs of BOTH our ordinary First Nations and Anglo-Franco citizens, as opposed to merely elitist citizens. (This latter class of citizens which while perhaps more developed within "White" Canada, First Nations here having been longer and more effectively repressed, there are nonetheless indicators of this same elitist class element or "ambition" struggling to emerge within modern First Nations also.)

That's my view. I expect that the citizens of First Nations will have their own, for which I will not attempt to speak or presume-, as self-righteously as yourself, Clamber.

Which, if the future proves me right, means you will have to suck it up considerable more than you currently seem to think you should or have to, in your own right wingnut Fantasyland.

What a bunch of bullshit, that would make some faggy lawyer proud, meanwhile, back in the real world the pipeline companies are dealing with the F.N.s, like Logjam 603 and myself said, how much money to make it happen? All the airy fantasies you want to see are eclipsed by the almighty dollar, pragmatism is king, the money put on the table will overcome, all the piplelines will be built. Can you handle that?

Some cute stuff about Jack Munroe.

Things were getting pretty serious when folks got Jack to go up to chat with Bennett. It wasn't just his idea. I was in a federal union at the time and if we walked as due the next day we were all told we would be fired period. Our collective was in place and federal unions arn't allowed the luxury of BC unions with day of protest, with loss of pay and a letter of repremand. But by gosh a heck of a lot of us were ready to go anyway.
Shortly after things sort of calmed down we went to watch a local play. Jack Munroe was shown as a viper. I never quite figured that one out. So I asked the actors just what had he done that was so bad when directed to do so. The answer was too silly to repeat.

Name-calling and homophobia may be alright for your work place climber, but it is socially unacceptable here, and most enlightened places in the world. Your swearing and your rudeness do not make you appear stronger nor more intelligent. Please control yourself, or I am sure the editor will add your address to the excluded list.

If the pipes cross fns land let fns decide..if they want it..so be it..
if they don`t..buy off more chiefs?
Didn`t Alaska fns lease the land to Exxon for their oil ports for a dollar. The reason so cheap was the extremely strict environmental standards that Exxon had to follow to protect fns fishery...like very expensive navigational equipment for the supertankers for one...like the Exxon Valdez.
. Hope it works out for the Haisla..I`m sure they know who they`re dealing with.

Climber, no a general strike is not a revolution but a tactic that can be used either in a revolutionary or reformist sense. It would not have been a matter of overthrowing the Socreds, but merely stopping their attack on labor. You see, since WW2 general strikes have had a high rate of success. Previously they would just turn machine guns on you but after the defeat of the Nazis such became ill form (unless you were in the Third World) The Belgian GS of 1960, the French 1968, The Quebec GS of 1972 come to mind. All managed to defeat the government. Even when you are defeated (think of Winnipeg GS 1919) it becomes a legendary rallying point. The worst thing is to wimp out. This sows defeatism, mistrust and hopelessness. Better to be defeated - “at least we tried” than being sold out by a bunch of porkchoppers and right-wing social democrats who fear the people more than the bosses.

You mayn't know it Climber, but we are all laughing at you behind your back. More, the ruling class is likely laughing at you as well. And their bootlick minions do read these threads.

Like I said dipshit, most of us understand the terrible position First Nations people are in, the poverty that has their backs to the wall and which may just drive their own Jack Munro type "leadership" in many cases, into the bed of the big "Whiteman" US energy corporates.

Poverty and diminished hope does terrible things to the people so afflicted. Even amongst the similarly exploited class stratas of Whites. It is part of the explanation of the current period of decimated working class organization and willingness to fight back, and why they, like you, also suck ruling class cock.

It is going to take a tremdendous change in the prevailing political climate, and the preparedness and capacity to fight back of the people's movement of Canada, to turn this current Neoconazi dynamic around. I understand that-, and have no illusions about it.

It is you who are living the illusion, little man, that you are one with the ruling class and share their exploitation interest. It is a too common working class illusion at all strata levels. I understand that also. When in reality you, like most of they, are a pathetic zero wannabe that we all recognize, and have seen around here many times before.

Take your head from that part of your own anatomy where the sun never shines, and breathe the fresh air of even your own sorry ass reality. You won't come to grips with your time until you finally do, ya know that. (I understand logging, having had my own logging contract show at one time, and with my family still much dependent on the industry.)

I invite you to smell the rose, little man, and purge the scent of your own intellectual and ideas colon. Stop being a victim yourself.

Sharing Is Good, why do you not suggest that the editor put Coyote on the excluded list, that varmint insults and calls more names than anyone here. Anyways now, about the pipeline and First Nations, on one hand Coyote says F.N.s should have "thier" land back and control thier own show, as they see fit. Now he says "Jack Munro" type native leadership may get them into bed with his favorite bogeyman, U.S. oil interests. Band leaders are elected, a democracy, they have the bands approval, so if they don't follow his wishes, what then? He also states they live in terrible poverty, what a huge generalization, revealing his ignorance. So First Nations, like the Haisla, live in terrible poverty, he says, and they have agreed to a port on their reserve that will pay them a lot of money, lifting them out of this alledged "terrible" poverty, but that isn't cool, cause the "Jack Munro" type leaders will have sold them out to American oil interests? WTF? And the McLeod Lake band, that owns Duz Cho Logging Ltd. and Duz Cho Construction Ltd. what to make of them, clearcutting and building roads in northern B.C.? I say way to go, great. What does the mighty Coyote say to that? Can you handle Natives clearcut logging and making money, is that alright with you?.

I think Coyote dealt with all of that in an earlier posting. Is shows plainly that he supports the FN in what they do with their lands. He is not trying to impose some agenda upon them, which would of course be just one more form of white mans imperialism. We have fuked them over enough, let them do what they have to do...

So the F.N.s can do whatever the fuk they want, but Coyote wants to stop the white man from clearcutting or drilling or building pipelines, is that right? Can the Haida make war on coastal tribes again and take slaves back to Haida Gwaii, is that cool too?

I don't condone anyone's clear cut logging, arse-hole. You're just dancing around the maypole making yourself dizzy, or dizzier and dizzier here. But the only one's I know it doing it, and I'm talking about our short-sighted and criminal selves here, do so under the direction of the Big US Corporates, and for their primary interest.(It is certainly not in our interest OR that of First Nations, that our lands be stripped bare of tress or any other assets which we have a responsibility to husband for our own needs and that of our future generations.)

And you really do need to give us a verifiable example of any First Nation which you impugn to have engaged in this large scale strip mining of their forest lands. Some logging practise is and will always be necessary. I know of none. So I suspect you are merely whistling up there again, in the dark where the sun never shines.

And even then, were it true, and I know of none, my bet is that there will be a Big US/other foreign forest corporate that receives the end result product and profit of that activity. So who is the real criminal here, the fat cat initiator with the drug money, or the poor used victim on the desperation, need the cash to support my family end?

So, loose-lips, give us a concrete example we can examine in detail and do our research on, pointing to a specific place and group, of which you are talking here. Otherwise we will have to assume that you are just pissing into the wind again.

And then again, even at that, WERE it true, which I am not prepared to buy into on your say so, I would understand what is driving these poor folks and communities to do it-, even though I would not agree with it and would unequivocally condemn it-, as I do our own forest strip-mining practises. Still then, it will be their consequence to live with, as it is ours.

We have a whole lot of our own business to be minding and correcting, without preaching from the position of our own hypocritical alters down onto that of desperate others.

We both, ordinary Natives and ourselves, need to be getting a better understanding of each other, our often shared predicaments, and looking to what common causes we can raise, against those who exploit and use us both, along with those who bootlick serve them, such as your sorry ass self.

Details and concrete examples, not just hot blowing ass air, or STFU. You may be able to live and thrive in that dark, dank environment, but the rest of us can't and won't.

All clearcut logging is in the ultimate interest of U.S. companies, really? Now what do you think a company called Duz Cho Logging Ltd. does, supply male escorts to freaks like you?, they log, *******.

Sure, if that's part of their heritage.....like drilling for oil and gas and commerical logging apparently is.

climber:
This land in dispute is the traditional lands of the FN people, and yes, although not perfect, traditional management of FN territories by FN's, I believe needs to be done, and should have always been done. They will make mistakes, we all do, but so what, we need to respect their process.

The Heiltsuk and many other FN communities, generally do not clearcut. I am told, this is out of respect for the future generations, and love for the land itself. One of their biggest fears is the Oil and Gas industry, whether it is off shore drilling, tankers, or pipelines. I do not know of any of the FN communities (as a whole) to be supportive of any Oil and Gas intitatives. In fact many of them are vehemently opposed to it. Obviously, I am far from "all-knowing", but this is my understanding.

I feel for the FN's people during this differcult and trying times...

Climber, taking on Coyote as you do, is clearly overstating your importance here, and in my opinion, Coyote is compassionate and very clear on Earth issues and the importance he puts on them. Coyote can say what he wants, as he has good thoughts and he has paid his dues dude...

You know not what you do little man...

Peace

RTB

Climber is likely right in all he says, subscribing as he does to the Hobbesian school of thought.

Going down the Dean Channel and many of the other channels on the Central Coast, I only know of Large Corporation's clear cutting forests... Not the First Nations. From what I have seen is the FN's consider sustainability at every turn...

The clear cuts are everywhere, and many of them new, and right down to the creek beds... Pathetic.

RTB

I saw a hell of a lot of clear cuts also when flying to Castlegar a couple of weeks ago. Right to the creek beds too. And a lot of the cuts were not on heavy slopes but plateaus or gentle slopes. Like flying over WW1 battlefields, it was.

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RE: clearcuts:

The beetle wood is making it so that we either clearcut or leave it dead in the forest. Dead in the forest provides more stability for the soil.

http://www.alexiscreekfirstnation.com/album_page_3.htm Wasn't too hard to find, a partnership between the Alexis Creek Band and Riverside Forest Products. West of Williams Lake B.C., Sure looks like a clearcut to me, nothing wrong with that in my books, but you whiners might have a problem with it. Now RTB are you really suggesting its ok for Coyote to be so insulting and rude 'cause he has been here for a while and "paid his dues"?

The beetles are everywhere from PG south through William's Lake - from the tollbooth north to Kamloops.

http://www.blndc.ca/blnll.asp This F.N. has been clearcutting since they set up thier outfit in the '70s, great. Do I have to keep looking and posting succesfull F.N. loggers or are you going accept that Native guys can log like whitey as well?

Sharing, we log it or it burns, simple. I first saw this in Manning park in the late '90s, now it is dreadfull, but none of it can be logged because its in a park. About leaving it in the forest, assuming it gets logged before it burns there is very little chance of soil disturbance. This is because the areas of the beetle infestation are on mostly sloping, not steep ground, and not nearly as much rain falls as on the coast. RTB, what about the double standard you have regarding Coyote and myself?

Well, first of all Climber, the other thing you don't understand of course, is I'm "their" *******, while you're "the enemy's" *******. Big difference. :-) So suck that one up, doofus.

And I learnt a long time ago that there is only one language your's and IAMC's kind really understand. And it ain't playing kissy-face with you folks. You are "the enemy" , and we need to get beyond this "too polite and nice" place with you and treat you as such. Too many mushy-middle politicians out there already falling all over themselves, trying to ingratiate themselves to, and kiss ruling class ass and such wingnuts as yourselves who aggressively serve them.

And yes, what happens to a great deal of the timber that doesn't get cut down is, one, it burns eventually as part of a natural cycle, which returns nutrients back to the earth, and stimulates new plant and timber growth leading to forest renewal, and which kills say, Pine Beetle over abundance, for example.

So excessive human cutting demand and accompanying fire suppression is now known to be the causes of a whole host of other originally unintended and realized problems, just like excessive deforestation due to "excessive" logging practise causes land, wildlife and bio-diversity depletion over time etc. etc. ((There are a number of timber species, in fact, which can't germinate and thereby reproduce without the ground heat only forest fires can produce. So part of the problem with many of our forests and their health is precisely the degree to which we have suppressed fire, which includes the degree to which we have over-cut them to prevent fires-, at least ostensibly, the claimed reason. Which you echo, not surprisingly.)

And all of these issues and problems largely are a consequence of increasing "human" over-population and demand upon the underlying resource base. And again, part of what drives that in turn, as the underpinning dynamic is, primarily, I suggest, a fear and greed driven socio-economic system called "capitalism" that has built into it a need for never ending growth in production and consumption, and money wealth creation, or it begins to implode upon itself. It loses its raison d'etre. And all of which drives again in turn a parallel need for never ending market growth, market share, increased consumers to consume and a constantly expanding supply of cheap labour.

And we and First Nations, these latter folks coming out of a special history of dispossession of their land and resources base, near population extirpation through disease, war and poverty etc, we are all otherwise similarly currently caught up with and trapped inside this ever expanding socio-economic system that is increasingly showing signs of doing serious damage, through excessive demand on this underlying land and resource base. The consequences of which threaten us all, but especially compound and make desperate the needs and interests of First Nations people, who after this long history of oppression consequences are now the fastest growing part of the Canadian population, bar none. So they are having to move, being forced to move, and are being emboldened to move by their numbers and the signs that our "White" social and economic fabric is beginning to come finally unglued under the influence of this neoconservative driven period.

Continue next post...

From previous post...

But the central point of it all, on a global scale, is still the scale of the demand on the underpinning natural resources base of the entire planet, from ALL sources and capitalism building populations, but especially the relatively extremely wealthy West whom everyone else is merely emulating to here. It all being encouraged by the socio-economic greed system of capitalism, toward which the entire world, as I say, is similarly moving. And that's a serious problem in a world of already precipitously declining fisheries and a host of other sea, air and water pollution issues and consequences. (Fish are right now dying by the thousands in the Great Lakes, as we speak, according to story on CBC today, and everyone is baffled as to what they can do to stop it.)

So we ALL have a problem, Natives and Whites, which even you neoconservatives cannot hide.

And if you think we can continue on this present course in perpetuity, forever and a day, with this prevailing socio-economic system and its accompanying population, war and poverty pressures bursting at the seams of nearly all borders, with all the likewise accompanying signs of natural systems crises rising everywhere, then it is not me living in a Fantasy Climber. It is such as you and your ilk who are in fact living within and attempting to justify this nightmare fantasy you would lock us all into, Whites and First Nations.

It is you and your ilk who are the main obstacle, the "logjam up the arse" in the way of the development of a more rational, democratic and egalitarian socio-economic order.

It is time for you to go back to your drawing board and re-assess your positions, so that you can then come back here and argue your new positions more intelligently and knowledgeably with us. Instead of merely appearing as another wingnut raver, such as we have already seen many times here.

As it is, we are sick of listening to you. You are irrational beyond description.

Coyote:
Beautifully put, as usual.

Climber:
Take a break, you are boring me to tears with your ego.

...Didn't you read climber, I said "in my opinion", not the opinion of the Tyee brass dude... It is simple, I trust Coyotes opinions, but I do not trust the spirit behind yours...'nuff said.

Your like a drippy faucet to me climber. Your all about conflict, and you do not seem to be willing to stretch your mind. You need to need to have some quiet time to determine who you are, and what impact you really want to make on the earth. If this is it...than that is sad for you and for the generations to come...imo.

Right on "Sharing", I agree. There is more to a forest then just the trees. That is why a clear cut is so destructive to the little biospheres that exist in them. The soil and plants (although altered by the lack of canopy) are still supporting life. So let nature do its thing to heal itself over the next thousand years without us altering it even more. Clear cutting, but once again, should not be allowed...

Peace

RTB

Well-written, Coyote! Your most recent posts contain cogent text stating the plain truth about what we has been befalling the planet as a result of objectivism/capitalism.

Climber, thirty years ago, I used to believe like you. That was when I lived in farm/cityland - before I moved to this part of the world and talked to old-timers who said things like, "when we first started getting serious about logging in the 30s, we could see no end to it. Now, I wish we had saved some." Another statement I remember from this man during the late 70s, "When I first saw this beach, you could wiggle a short-handled shovel down and not hit sand until after you had buried it in oyster shells; and most of those shells had oysters that were still alive! They used to be poor man's food that we could count on if we were having a bad year hunting and we were tired of fish. Now, I don't even see one oyster, and if I did, I would be afraid to eat it with all the sewage and marine paint and bilge-water out here." Those were the words of a man who had spent his life as a fisherman and a logger. He was filled with the sad wisdom of knowing he had been a part of tearing everything apart. In the end, he realised that we need to be careful with what we do to our environment, our home.

Another wonderful thing microbes do to/for the soil:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/MediaAlerts/2004/2004040116772.html

Great statement Coyote. People who belive the capitalist orthodoxy in regards to the forests forget there is such a thing as science. You can't cherry pick science, thoough admitedly for some, prejudice is a lot more fun than the work of countless ecologists, botanists etc.

This clearly ain't the place to drop this story, but as the only thread which seems to have any life this morning, perhaps someone will see it:
August 27, 2006 N Y Times

Thanks for the kind words folks. Even I think maybe I go too far sometimes, for which I have a "small" tendency.:-) So it is reassuring to know that I haven't totally alienated you all.

Sharing Is Good,

You are so right.

Now this is something even I, in a logging dependent community, hear from older and more mature ex and current loggers fairly regularly, who have a longer time frame perspective on what has been the consequences of the sheer "scale" of logging that has gone on over their working lives. Younger loggers, though even not all of them, especially with younger families and more immediate worries around food on the table and such, tend to be more in a state of denial and not wanting/unable to see what is going on out there in the big picture. (Though the travel time distances many of these guys are now having to do each day, just to get to the commercially viable wood sources from their homes, is overwhelming and driving many of them to desperation. There is many a logger, my son in law for example, who dearly wishes he could stop the world and get off the work nightmare he is trapped in, and still make the money he needs to make to support his family. (And the influence of unions in the woods have largely been busted, as one of the first casualties of the de-unionization drives and sweetheart tendencies within wood unions since the early 80s. Enter the Jack Munro view of the world, so much the source of Neoconazi praise as the perspective for the working class these goofs plump for.)

Many though do know there is a serious problem developing in the forest resource they depend on, young though especially older, more mature, and community leaders likewise, having to look ahead in order to plan often know as well. But the economics of their collective situations are often so tenuous right now, for loggers, they cling to any, even dilapidated life raft thrown to them by the bosses, especially in this neoconservative period. Virtually everyone is afraid to rock the boat.

The real need though, is to look the Beast right in the eye, and deal with it, and the driving "capitalist/corporate dominated market system" realistically and concretely, in a new and more "ruling class" challenging way.

The old assumptions simply are looking more and more obviously threadbare, especially to the smarter amongst loggers.

I have one small example of what you mean. I was standing at the bus stop talking to this guy, guess he was in his late '40's. Turns out to be a logger. Was pissed about how all the trees had been cut down around here. Said he now votes for the Green Party. Bet he isn't the only one, who isn't sucked in by the corporate state propaganda.

Have you stopped the fawning over Coyote, sycophants? When you are done, wipe of your chins and start talking about pipelines again. Actually more than just pipelines running into and out of Kitimat, this "discovery" of the northern port of Prince Rupert means more jobs and investment in the whole area. Prince Rupert has a deep harbour that is open year round, same as Kitimat, it also has rail and road access. The best thing of all is that ships are hours closer to the Orient. Rupert is going to be a superport, free of the mess and squalor of Vancouver. The northwest of B.C. has had the highest levels of unemployment in the province, this is the best news for this hurting region for a long time. Also new mines are going to go into production in this area as well. Mining exploration, as you all must know was discouraged by the NDP for years, now with the rise in metal prices, it is a go. There will be no more insanities like the Tatsenshini-Alseck (spelling) debacle of the 90s. You can snivel and cry all you want, it is going to happen, finally the northcoast will be developed and stable. And thats a good thing, W.A.C. Bennett would be happy.

What's the hurry? If it is worth a lot of money now, won't it be worth more in 10 or 20 years? Perhaps by then, they will have learned better ways to build pipelines more safely. Does everything have to be developed just because it can?

Whats the hurry? Did you not read that the northcoast has the highest rates of unemployment in the province? Wouldn't it be nice if families could stay together and kids could grow up in the same place as thier parents? About pipelines, there are more safety agencies, gov't and otherwise involved with them than ever before, the lessons of the last 10-20 years will be used. Everything does not have to be developed because it can be, never happens, its developed cause it usually makes sense.

Things are developed because they make economic sense within a capitalist system. I don't know all of the factors that go into the decision, but I favour taking time with decisions that can make huge environmental impact.

Jared Diamond in "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" writes about the deforestation of Easter Island. (It was once as forested as say, Tahiti) He asks what was the person thinking when he cut down the last tree on Easter Island? (The trees were cut down for ideological reasons - to build skid roads for moving the statues of their ancestors from the quarries. The clans competed to see who could build the most and biggest statues.) I feel the "must develop or else" viewpoint is a bit like that. When does it stop? When is enough, enough? There are always reasons to develop, or rather excuses. It is always framed in terms of employment, though employment is the last concern of the capitalist system.

Yawwwn.

The wingnut raver is back?

Pathetic piece of work. And becoming a bore.

Think I'll catch a few afternoon zzzzs.

I agree with anarcho. And better that working people should learn to create and control their own lives, than constantly be chasing after the table scraps, greed whims and caprice of the ruling class.

Such bootlicks are such as "the raver".

you out there gwest? you'd have enjoyed yourself at the mariners game today pal. 85 degrees, 44,000 happy fans, 3 dingers including a grand slam, and lots and lots of sights. seattle has it all figured out, unlike those bush league lefty chumps in vancouver who shut everything down in the name of stopping progress. what a shame the morons have so much power up there. cheers dude.

good on ya' for setting these boring lefties straight climber. the northern mayors are happy and the northern residents are happy, but of course these stick-in-the-mud morons are searching desperately for something to criticize re the govt's plans for the north. what a bloody joke, as usual. oh well, it doesn't really matter much anyway, since the ndp have become a party of the past. no more socialists in power for many years to come. i can still hear the collective sigh of relief.

Elliot, I don't like the Liberals in B.C. for the most part, they are pretty heartless in regards to children, poor people, sick people etc. I liked the NDP, still do in many ways but the last time they were in power they were so fukin stupid and arrogant it stunned me and made investors and small business people cringe. They wanted to do good things, but strove to stop the money flow to make it happen at every turn. I believe they let the environuts decide policy instead of looking to, say, union members in logging and mining etc. who always supported them for guidance. So now we have the Liberals, who pretend to be old time Socreds, which they are not. I would like a govt. that was pro development and resource extraction, and then used some of that money to look after people. NDP=nothing. Liberals=something but heartless. Funny how I am called a wingnut raver, lets see, Coyote-Mr.No development, no realistic logging, no nothing, sitting around howling about how there are no jobs, and the "man" is evil. You got 'er right, morons.

I think you are largely to blame for this Climber. It is actually a very complex problem, economic develoment and the environment. It does not boil down to enviros good, development bad or vise versa. You have created this polarized situation by denying the validity of the environmentalists questioning of development. You also ignore the ecological and biological sciences. At least 3 times I have mentioned that you can criticize some aspects of a scientific analysis but you cannot reject science in general. YOU CANNOT CHERRY PICK SCIENCE!
It is a matter for people to find a social consensus around this issue and this can only come about thru reasoned, rational discussion. You have come here and called the enviros all kinds of names and then get upset because some people slag you back. What if you had tried an approach all along - as I have been trying all this while, if you have not noticed - to find some common ground? Once again you are guilty of the fallacy of the false dichotomy, ie, it MUST be either crazy enviros or status quo resource extraction. Sorry, but there are always third options.

Preservationists is a better word, many of the so-called enviromentalists want to stop it all, or limit it so much it amounts to the same thing. Many scientists are like consultants, more accurately called conslutants, they will find a way to say whatever they are paid to or whatever appeals to thier beliefs. Consider the scientists that work for enviromental groups and oil companies, same questions, different answers. I may have used the words do-gooders, tree-huggers, and so forth to talk about people, but I never questioned thier sincerity. I have been called all manner of things here, merely because I am pro rather than anti resource extraction. I have pretty "left" views in regards to social issues, but know it takes money, and you can't make an omellette without breaking some eggs. Hard for many here to understand, sad.

The Liberal Mayor of Merritt is in favour of building a landfill for GVRD waste in Merritt's backyard. That doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean it is safe for local residents' drinking water or their property values. For local residents it is not about NIMBY: it is about the Vancouverites not putting it in their own backyard. Seems to me Whistler is closer than Merritt. No toll on that highway. Why don't they take it there?

I don't mind pipelines, I just don't like herbicides and poisons being spread on what's left of the world's pristine lands. If natives are able to make a deal about what happens, I don't want them to get shafted. Why don't we help them find a way to build and own the pipeline themselves? It's their land after-all.

http://www.sen.parl.gc.ca/pcarney/english/SenatorPat/Aboriginal%20Women/canadas_tribal_women_fight_.htm Speaking of getting shafted. Check this out, shatters the myths some here have. Oh my God, they can be just like us, imagine that.

Elliot,
Isn't McCaw a Seattle millionaire? He and the canucks trust (obviously not a 'brain' trust anymore) don't seem to have that figured out. As to Seattle politics; all my American friends call Washington and Oregon the 'left' coast of America.

Glad you enjoyed the game.

climber
Did you see the date on that article? Not that it isn't a significant indictment of Indian Affairs - but, I think there have been a number of Band Councils charged since then and I think the role of women has also been addressed significantly, as well as the status of urban bands. I think Saskatoon is a good example of what kind of progress has been made in some of these areas.

you're right about it being the left coast g, in fact my host is a staunch democrat. but hey, for free seats behind the 3rd base dugout i can handle a bit of humouring.

I am going to be in Montreal for the next week, so no more postings for a while. Anyway, I am tired of debating Climber, I feel all that happens is sort of talking in circles. See y'all...

...amen to that anarcho. Have a good trip brother.

RTB

G west
Didn’t have time to read the whole thread, but:

Kitimat LNG has received their Environmental Assessment approval from the Provincial government to construct a LNG Terminal at Bish cove.

Endbridge is in the process of applying for a terminal nearby for oil tankers. In regards to the moratorium, you should read the wording to see what it says.

There is already a LNG pipeline to Kitimat, but apparently it can’t be reversed to supply LNG into North America.

Kitimat was chosen as the terrain was considered more stable than the route to Prince Rupert.

Methenax has been making condensate in Kitimat for years, but recently shut down the facility due to the high cost of LNG. They are now starting to import it (can’t remember from where), the dock is the same one they have been using for tankers/barges previously. They will be shipping condensate by rail car until the pipeline is built. The condensate is apparently used to make the crude oil flow better in pipelines.

...rummor has it, key Universities recently, have refused at this time, to give their "stamp of approval" to Enbridge and the "Gateway Project" due to enviromental concerns.

So far, so "good".

Kinda reminds me of a guy who jumped from a 20 story building, and on the 4th floor I stuck my head out of the window, and I heard him say as he went by... "so far so gooooood..."

I hope the "Ethical Will" of those who stand to influence this project, wins out... I have to believe it will...

Peace

RTB

Colin
Yep! I know all that. I just think the whole thing is being done in a very hush-hush way - the usual Campbell/Klein way. Enbridge looks extremely scummy to me as well and, if the damn natural gas is needed for the big population centres then that's where the port should be - match costs and benefits in by view - great capitalistic principle. Don't screw up the north coast. Not only that, the waters are much less narrow and dangerous down here. Maybe if the energy wasters had to contend with the downside of their addictions they’d be less likely to waste so much energy – seems to me I’ve heard that argument before haven’t I?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060828.wkinderr0828/BNStory/Business

Its a worthy cut and paste on the old IP address , all but connecting certain dots. Emersons directorship for the sale of BC gas to Teresen is one of them. Also, the firm to invest the most into the private ownership of Morgan Kindle is Carlye, Bush's U.S. defense corp play.

Perhaps you have all heard of this black plague thats been killing life throughout the world at unprecidented levels. Its called oil?

Climber... yah... I can work with him... when he realizes that there are worse things than being unemployed. Living in devasted environments is one of them.

Much agreed with your economical and environomental points, Coyote.
:-)

Good to see you back again, The brain! ;D

Again, why not help the First Nations people whose land is being crossed gain the expertise to build and maintain an eco-sensitive pipeline for themselves? It may take a couple of more years to accomplish, but at least the money will stay with the people most affected. I am looking for one good argument against this. I would think that the feds would even want to kick in money for training. After-all they are useful skills into a sector of the economy that is growing.

First Nations people in B.C. have free schooling of all kinds available to them, govt. and band councils supported by govts. will even pay them on top of the costs they pay for classes, courses, rent, food, etc. However few F.N. people use these benefits, sadly. Meanwhile some people, like poor people, have very little support or help. I see nothing wrong with what is granted to F.N. people for getting a leg up on life, after what has happened in the past. The pipelines cost millions, the F.N.s want people employed in monitoring and maintenance positions but most money will come from r.o.w. use payments. Construction of a pipeline through thier reserve will be of a temporary nature, then these people thus trained will be moving to Alberta, most likely to work. Hows that SIG?

Thanks for replying, Climber.

The oil and gas industry in BC has also been growing, with many of the experienced baby-boomers set to retire. For the next 20 years, there should be lots of work in Northern BC for pipefitters, brush clearers, fallers, loggers and lumbermen. Someone spoke earlier about many pipelines in the works. There are many transferable skills in an industry like this. They could move into plumbing/construction/boiler-making/water-supply etc. etc. When I went seine-boating, the native boats did as well as any on the coast. Now, in the Interior, I know of FN logging companies, sand and gravel companies, lumber-milling companies, construction companies, log home companies etc. that are all doing well and competing on an equal footing with Non-native companies. I am glad we agree that there would be nothing wrong with helping the FN people own, build and maintain pipelines on their own land. If (as you say) the pipelines are going to be built anyway, this could be a real legacy - unlike the Olympics may or may not be.

In regards to few First Nations people using what is offered, there has been a great deal of growth in the use of education and training by FN people over the last generation. It is heartening to witness from my vantage point. Further, many of the FN people have been reclaiming heritages that were stolen from them: no property ownership, residential schools and np right to vote... I think they will do fine if they decide they want to build a pipeline.

Woops you said "right of way". I think they can build and own them with a little help.

Sharingisgood,

The Haida, Gitgaat, Kitasoo and Haisla are very worried about the tankers moving along the coast of their traditional lands for obvious reasons... Once the pipeline got built, then tankers are a reality...and that is unimaginable along that coast...imo.

RTB

RTB, lookee here, http://www.kitimatlng.com/code/navigate.asp?Id=37 That takes care of the Hiasla, the terminal serving the tankers is going to be built on thier reserve. There already have been tankers going into Kitimat, for years. In fact, big ships have been plying the waters here for a couple of hundred years. Other than the Queen of the North, what other sinking/grounding comes to mind? Now SIG, I take it you are pro logging, with your prediction of bush jobs being avalible in the north for the next twenty years?

I am an environmentalist, first. I am not in a huge hurry to see what is left of the planet strip mined; clear-cut; depleted through monoculture agriculture/silvaculture; burnt out from over-watering, over-fertilizing, use of pesticides/herbicides/fungicides and any other 'cides. I deplore wasteful practises and the needless destruction of large tracts of land and or water.

That said, I also understand the pragmatism of extracting minerals and wealth from the earth. I drive a car, I own a home, I use natural gas and electricity, and I read books and wipe my behind with paper made from trees. I do understand that sometimes a clearcut is a good way to go. But it is not the only way, and there needs to be methods of mitigating damage put into place. I am more in favour of strip logging and woodlots. When it comes to mining, let's not be in too big of a hurry, let's save some for our great-great grand-children.

The differance is climber, the tankers would now, also be going down tight, difercult channels in this area for the first time dude. Negotiating a tanker there is a whole other thing than the negotiating the a tanker on the outer coast... Unbelievable it is even being considered...

Exxon Valdez...hello.

History shows an enviromental catastrophy is inevitable... When? Who knows...could be 1 year, could be 20, but industry\government\those for it, will have destroyed something that took hundreds of thousands of years to evolve to it's perfection. The Great Bear indeed is under seige.

If this goes through, it will not be clear cutting alone that will destroy the Great Bear and all that live in it...

Consider the Kermode Bear licking oil off her feet, and the feet of her offspring... Have you even thought about that climber?

RTB

spelling error. "Difference" and "difficult" in first paragraph...sorry.

RTB

Yes, thankyou SIG. No bigger responsiblity does this generation have then to be responsible to the generations to come...

peace,

RTB

The Great what? It is called the northcoast of B.C. Kermode bears are black bears, Edgar Winter is a human, enough. About the oft cited Exxon Valdez, now tankers are double hulled, around where the Exxon incident happened, tankers are now escorted by huge tugs. They have brought tankers into Kitimat already. They will be running in and out, deal with it. Tankers run across the Atlantic every day, all the time. Also, think about this, during WW2 German U-boats sank millions of tons of Allied shipping, including many tankers, they went down with millions of tons of oil. So? Stop with the paranioa, imagine the bears licking thier feet, c'mon.

Climber, ... half truths and your "...so what, it is just a black bear" attitude. Or your "humans are more important than other life forms..." attitude dude. As an person concerned about the survival of the earth (which separates us immediately), I have always sought to justice for her within what-ever my sphere of influence has been. All I can say is this climber; This is an enviromental site cowboy...besides Trees, the Earth, and future generations, what have you cut down, or sold out on lately... I know...The Truth.
What is the reason you do not want kids climber. I wonder if it is that you do not wish for the responsibility of bringing up children in a world that look like the one in your 'minds eye'... Pathetic dude, and on an enviromental blog no less... You know, the one that has people conversing about the protection of the Earth and her inhabitants...

That "quiet time" as I mentioned on previous posts climber, would serve you well...

RTB

spelling error, sorry, "...sought for justice...", is what it should be...

rtb

Was there ever a time when road and pipeline construction didn't impact the environment and involve First Nations land claims? It is amazing anything ever got done in BC.

Sharingisgood

One of the companies operating out of Kitimat has an agreement to place FN personal as cadets aboard ships leaving Kitimat so they can get the seatime in order to acquire Marine tickets.

The FN’s certainly are taking an active role in developing resources and their priorities may not match those of the environmental groups.

Colin said:"The FN’s certainly are taking an active role in developing resources..."

Hey Colin,

How are ya??

Colin, are you suggesting the Haida, Gitgaat, Kitasoo, Haisla and other coastal communities, are supportive of the tanker initiative through the Inside Channel, delivering the "goods" from the Oil Sands in Alberta, and offshore drilling potential??

RTB

Fish-counter,

Can you explain your point a little more clearer please... I would sure appreciate it...Thanks.

RTB

Fish Counter,

I think the point is that Europeans moved into Canada, spread disease, and assumed ownership without bothering to ask the First Nations people for permission to do or take anything. Nobody cared about FN laws or customs, even though they had lived here for thousands of years. Personally, I believe the reserves should be considered FN; and FN people have a right to do whatever they want. Further, just because some people in Alberta, BC, Texas and possibly Asia want to pipe oil and gas, doesn't mean the FN people have to agree to it. Canadians, who are not FN, would be ready to bear arms if Portugal decided it was time to build a pipeline across the Yukon without permission from Canadians. It would be an attack on Canadian sovereignty.

Tribal council wants review

By Arthur Williams
Free Press
Aug 30 2006

The Carrier Sekani Tribal Council has presented the federal government with a plan to provide feedback on the proposed Enbridge Gateway Pipeline project.

Under the proposal, the $2.4 million First Nations Review Process would parallel the federal review process conducted by the National Energy Board and Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency.

“The pipeline [would go] through five of the member nations of the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council,” tribal council staff member Tara Marsden said. “We’ve been trying to get the discussion going for awhile.”

Eighteen First Nations in the region have signed on to participate in the process.

Who gets the $2.4 million, let me guess, a bunch of conslutants, why? Another waste of fuking time and money, build the fuking thing, pay off the F.N.s and be done with it, now. Thats what is going to happen anyway. RTB, you know the truth huh? Just sit back and watch this happen, it will unfold exactly as I have predicted all along.

...After dealing with you climber, I am going to need some "quiet time".

...oh, it's all possible, but the coastal nations are not going to allow the tankers to happen imo. I feel their commitment on this one...

It still is only 18 FN's looking at the proposal, there is 70 communities that have to agree...

We'll see...

Peace

RTB

Right to bear
I am not suggesting that they will block or support that particular proposal, that will be up to them and I have no doubt it is a deeply discussed issue.

What I am suggesting is that FN are developing organic infrastructure to carry out resource activities and to take part in resource development that impacts or crosses their traditional lands. Pipelines represent a opportunity to receive a revenue stream independent of the governments and coinciding with a looming downturn in Forestry and trapping activities it will be hard for them to ignore these proposals. No doubt the proponents of the oil terminal will be working hard to make offers to the FN on the coast who have concerns about tanker traffic.

The days where environmental groups could assume that their goals and the FN where the same are over, the FN’s are looking after themselves and if they deem the project to be a benefit to them, then they will not look kindly on any NGO’s attempting to block it.

You are quite right that any agreement amongst the CSTC will be tough to get.

You likely know more than I 'DLP', but I have been told the meet did not move towards the pipeline being built. Instead, FN's respect for their lands, and deep beliefs relative to their traditional caretaking and gardianship of their lands, was from my understanding, the basis of their discussions... Apparently, concern for ecological devastation was also brought up... RTB

I know it Colin, but the cost as they know, is great. Just a point, besides logging, you know, they are also involved in the developement of eco-tours, and fishing resorts. Although they need to evolve this industry more, many coastal FN's communities seem to be taking it very seriously. Their logging however, is for the most part, being done with the enviroment in mind and \minimal\no clear cutting.

I hear you Colin on the NGO, and the FN's relationship, and I do not know much about it really, but, from where I sit, their relationship is growing stronger all the time...

Differcult times for the FN's for sure. I send my good thoughts to them from where I am.

We will see Colin, but my heart believes in the majority of the FN's ethical will in dealing with the "Gateway" issue...

Peace

RTB

Colin, RTB climber etc.

Something no one's mentioned here, to date, is the reduction in royalties charged for Natural Gas coming out of the BC fields. You must know about this Colin.

The government put some of B.C.’s gas reserves on sale in mid-2003 and cut the prices to convince the oil companies to do a hurry up on their operations. I think the cost to taxpayers would be in the neighbourhood of $240 million of lost revenue. Although I suppose the added activity in the Peace in an election year looks good and nobody in the press seems to make much of this. But, during the same period Alberta (which has always had a sweetheart deal with the companies has changed four royalty programs because they said that the oil and gas companies were getting off too easily – somewhere in the neighbourhood of $186 million a year (of course the industry in Alberta is much bigger). Alberta is also re-evaluating its deep well and low volume output discounts, which will also increase the tax revenues to that province. Why the hell are we in BC doing the opposite?
And why, for God's sake are we ramping up to import natural gas at the same time that were giving the oil companies a sweetheart deal to hurry up and suck our own reserves dry? You don’t smell something rotten in the state of Denmark?

Those ethical questions can sometimes be asked in a whole variety of ways RTB - I'd like to know who else is going to benefit from the pipelines.

That is right Colin, the FNs are looking out for their own financial benefit and royalties that by rights should be going to all of the people of this province are the best way for them to go.

The news that Goldman Sachs (widely credited with 'overseeing' the 'privatization' of the assets of the Russian people under Yeltsin in the 90s into the hands of 'the oligarchs' who are jewish to the point that there was a TV series called The Oligarchs about them on Israeli TV ) and the Carlyle Group (heavy investers in the RFID 'mark of the beast' implantable microchips) have bought out Kinder Morgen is the creepiest thing I have read all week.

My my Goldman Sachs are busy little beavers here in BC, on the board of directors of CN Rail, buying Whistler/Blackcomb and now they own our former gas company. One would almost think they were 'oveseeing' the privatization of the assets of the people of this province.

Where's my royalty cheque? As someone who was born, raised and lived my entire life here in BC I seem to be losing vast assets to Goldman Sachs without a penny in my pocket.

Oh right, First Nations are the real owners of everything in BC and for those of you who don't see where that is going check out who their new mentors are at http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=796

Anyone who thinks that First Nations don't support oil and gas initiatives has never spent any time in BC's oilpatch where band councils are cutting deals left right and centre while locally written books on the subject are being censored:

Northeast NEWS, May 3, 2006

Fort St. John - A storm is brewing over a local man’s book about relations between natives and non-natives, which some say is racist.
Seventy-four year old Gordon Meek, an area farmer and oilpatch contractor, spent $80,000 of his own money to publish ‘Stone Age to Gold Age’, which characterizes some aboriginal people (he calls them ‘Indians’) as lazy and suggests they are using heritage issues to ensure a steady flow of unearned money from government and companies wishing to do business in the Northeastern BC oilpatch.
Since his book appeared two months ago, it has sold about 2000 copies (he printed 10,000), but many booksellers have pulled it from their shelves - some supposedly after visits from the RCMP and/or aboringinal people who reportedly view it as hate literature.
“It’s not hate literature,” said Meek in an exclusive interview with the Northeast NEWS.
“I said in the book there are lots of good and bad Indians, just as ther are good and bad whites and politicians.”
Meek, who conducted extensive research on the subject over a five-year span, said he started looking into the issues after he found his contracting company “couldn’t get work” in the oilpatch unless it “teamed up” with an aboriiginal group.
“To me, that’s racism,”he said.
Richard Resnor, communications spokesman for the Treaty 8 Tribal Association, said his organization is examining issues around Meek’s book, but he would neither confirm nor deny that Treaty 8 has a lawyer looking into it. Nor would he comment when asked if Treaty 8 viewed the book as racist.
“Treaty 8 is exploring the book and the issues around it and we will get something out to the public,” he told Northeast NEWS Friday.
Resnor said Treaty 8 has initiated a meeting “with some organizations” in Fort St. John about “racism in general”, which he said is concern for the organization and its people.
Meek said he has nothing against aboriginal people, many of whom he grew up with.
“I’ve always had a keen interest in Indians and I like them,” he said. “But government has spoiled them. They’re in a trap.”
Meek said he objects to the way some non-natives use derogatory terms when referring to First Nations people, suggesting they “should use a little respect.”

Continued from above:
[QUTOE]He agreed that many non-natives accept “handouts” from the government.
“There are lots of white parasites - anyone who lives off someone else. I’m not happy with those either.”
Meek said he simply wants to see all the people of Canada, regardless of race, treated the same.
“I don’t like to see segregation. We should all line up side by side. It’s a hell of a good country but it’s just not working. We’ve made quite a mess.”
Meek said that while a half-dozen booksellers have either pulled the book from their shelves or refused to re-order more copies after receiving warnings from either police or aboringinal people, he himself has had no threats whatsoever.
“Why would they go after the salespeople rather than me?” he wondered.
But he has heard that at least one oil company says it won’t use Meek Contractting equipment because of the book, although he stressed ownership of the company was transferred to his sons “years ago.”
And while he doesn’t consider himself a racist, he said he does believe in telling the truth as he sees it and hopes his book will have an impact - on politicians and native leaders.
“I hope government will be influenced somewhat,” he said. “I hope it will enlighten lots of people . i reveal their shortcomings and I hope they think about that.
“I think some will.”

You're livin on Fantasy Island there buddy. It's all about $$$$ now. FN have hydro bills, honking big 4x4s to keep on the road and kids that want $100 running shoes now.

Thanks for your comments kjc,

I can only comment from my experiences and perspectives, and no doubt you are doing the same. Yes, there is many FN's who priorities are such as you say,"Fantasy Island" I am not on. There is also many FN leaders, who are not willing to sell out to industry. They have turned it down before (fish farms), as I have mentioned previously on this thread, and they are capable of turning it down again...

Time will tell though kjc. Interesting comparison to the Jewish experience...RTB

hummmmm... Thanks for that "G". I did not know that. There always is sticky fingers in industry\government, but specifically, I wonder who it is that is benifiting with the pushtowards sucking out the B.C. resourses. Maybe "they" need to do this fast before NGO'S and FN's are organized to fend them off. Humans are like "cats" though... when something moves fast, everyone looks. They may find they would benifit more if they did the "frog slowly simmering in the heating pan" tactic...eh?

One thing for sure is that industry's initiatives are happening too fast for the enviroment. At this pace, we will not even know what our impact is until it is well past the tipping point and it is too late... pathetic.

Peace "G"

RTB

ps,
I miss Coyote.

Me too, RTB, me too.

I was hoping Colin would pick up on the obvious inconsistency between our royalty pricing and the fact that Natural Gas is running out - as well as the opposite situation in Klein land.

Still hoping.

Hey "G",

Outa town for a couple dayz... Hold the fort my friend.

Peace,

RTB

Your are correct RTB, I am speaking from my own experience of working in the oilpatch, for FN companies among others.

Don't kid yourself that FN are not benefitting from industry's initiatives. When the Campbell neocons become their new saviour and the National Post starts referring to Northern Quebec as the Cree Territories you have to know that something is up.

Crown land and resources are actually owned by all British Columbians but all companies have to do now is go to FN, pay the chiefs off and get their "permission" to exploit whatever it is they want. In my home town, FN signed off to clearcutting their own watershed.

climber is right, FN will get paid off, and the fuking thing will get built.

As far as comparing Canada's FN to the "Jewish experience' it is actually the Palestinians who are indigenous to the Levant not its European and American fundamentalist Jewish colonizers.

BTW I apologize for the unedited version of the Northeast News article on Gordon Meek that I posted. I did it in a hurry and am not accustomed to a forum format that you can neither preview or edit.

KJC, you nailed it, bingo. Cut the bullshit and the romanticized fantasy of the pure and noble savage. People like us, but with a gravy train/goldmine setup, I would be doing the same thing myself.

Has nothing to do with pure and noble from my standpoint. It is about ownership and domain of traditional lands.The First Nations people are "nations" and they deserve sovereignty over their lands.

Further, will you quit swearing, climber. I would like this site to be accessible to teenagers/high schoolers so that they can read a point of view that is different than the mainstream media. If you swear, there is a good chance that filters in the schools will not allow the site to be used.

How far does this "nation" thing go with you SIG? Federal powers, like citzenship, currency, police and prisons, immigration? Where do you draw the line? Now F.N.s lay claim to all of B.C., as you should know, do want them to run this province as thier own country or what? It is very easy to talk about these things without being specific, please try.

Climber,
I would rather have the FN people run it than the government that is now in power. Personally, I believe a good deal of BC rightfully belongs to them. If things had been done leagally when this country was forming, the FN people would now be in control. That said, it was next to impossible for the FN people to protect themselves from the disease, and destruction of their social order that accompanied the Europeans/Canadians. They have been going through a Dark Age brought on by European settlers. It seems to me, they are just now coming out of that. Just because they have gone through a period of decline, gives us no right to take advantage of them, particularly since Euro-Canadians have succeeded in poisoning and destroying much of what they had. 150 years ago, Vancouver was a beautiful place, pretty much the same as it had been for the thousands of years that the FN people had inhabited this province.

Be specific, as I asked, please.

It's the first time I ever really thought too much about the topic; but, I am not opposed to self government for the First Nations peoples. The Dominion of Canada certainly did little to protect their rights or their cultures. If a nation wants its own currency, it's fine with me. FN people didn't need prisons before Europeans came, now they make up 50% of the Canadian prison population.

That's about as specific as I can be, Climber, because I don't want to speak for the FN people in regards to what they should get. They have been the victims, and it is more their right to name what has been lost and what they could and should get back.

They have been going through a Dark Age brought on by European settlers.

Along with free hospitals, dental care, housing, electricity, hot and cold running water, 4x4s and roads to drive them on, grocery stores, manufactured good, schools etc. etc. etc.

There was an article in the G&M a while back about some hearings that were held in the NWT concerning the long proposed Mackenzie Valley pipeline. After listening to the young chiefs get up and talk about the need to preserve traditional native culture, an elder got up to speak. He said that while he was born into a hunting and gathering society, they would never lead traditional lives again.

As residents and citizens of BC the crown lands and resources already belong to FN less than 50% of whom would qualify as being full-blooded. When I was actively involved with FN issues in the mid 90s one of the first things I noticed was the more radical and sovereignist they were, the more likely it was they had a white wife. Why should someone who was say born, raised and entirely educated in Ontario and came to Mount Currie via the Whistler ski scene now be entitled to rights and priveleges (and outright ownership!) of lands and resources here in BC that people who were born and raised here are not? Because they married an Indian? It is racism pure and simple.

I have heard white women where I live say they would marry an Indian "in a second."

Wake up. Recognition of "traditional" FN rights here in BC is nothing more than a ruse to privatize the lands and resources of this province. Once they are off the Canadian taxpayer funded payroll they will go bankrupt in very short order. And guess who will own BC then?

It's time for everyone to wake up. In comparison to the conditions that the majority of the people on this planet live in, Candadian FN are spoiled brat, delusional crybabies.

When I look around at the way FN are living in my home town I can't help but think - how can their lives get any better? Oh, I guess they could all have housekeepers and swimming pools in their backyards.

BTW did you catch the article in the Toronto Star where, as a Six Nations "titleholder" professional modelspokesperson Kahentineta Horn is claiming to own an multi million dollar wind farm in Ontario and the wind that passes over it.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1155333028374&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

What next? Will we have to start paying royalties to the local chiefs to breathe?

It is estimated that diseases brought to the Americas by the Europeans wiped out up to 90% of the indigenous population. This "far-exceeded ... the Black Death of medievil Europe".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

FN populations thus decimated, they were pushed onto reservations, not given the right to vote and what was left of their families was ripped apart by residential schools. Children who attended these schools were taught not to speak their languages nor to respect their traditional ways nor to respect their parents. People who attended residential schools were often physically and sexually abused and they did not learn how to become parents. Until this last generation, they have been treated as less than people. In the small town where I live, I hear derogatory racist comments about these people day in day out. If I were FN, I would want to be treated better by the outsiders who have come in and destroyed their paradise. FN people living up along the MacKenzie had a much harder time than those in most of BC. I can believe that people up there might not want to return to some of their old ways.

At a $6.50 an hour trining wage, many of BC's young workers have already been having to pay to breathe. Of course, now that baby-boomers are retiring, the training wage is moot; but it wasn't for the first 5 years of this government's existence. The current government has made the plights of our weakest citizens worse. In these high rolling times of high commodity prices, our poor people have been getting poorer.

SIG, I am aware of the sordid and ugly history, now is now, KJC once again nailed it. Goddamn it I wish I was F.N., too bad, oh well.

Rather than blame people who have been victimized and put down for not getting better on our schedules, I think it is best to continue to see what we can do to help them. The mess Euro-Canadians created with/for the FN people will take several generations to overcome. I believe it is best done listening, respect, love and empathy, not blaming and trying to force our beliefs onto others. We need to have dialogue, not debate. Debate always produces losers. Through dialogue, we can find common purpose and resolve healthy needs.

correction:
*"I believe it is best done listening, respect..."

should have been: I believe it is best done through listening, respect...

...Hey all,

What do you think of this new T-shirt idea; "Don't just hire a Native, get the fuk off his land..."Sorry for the swear word SIG. BTW, I totaly agree with your take on the native issue, but I do have a huge concern for the enviromental impact with any pipeline. Thanks for sharing.

Here is what I said on an earlier post in this thread. Hopefully you appreciate this SIG.

We will wait to see what direction this whole thing will go...

Peace all,

RTB

RTB, Your earlier Colonialism comment did not go unnoticed by me; and I appreciated it. I think your T-shirt idea has more power without the swear-word. The environmental impacts of pipelines and highways should concern all of us - but so should sovereignty issues for FN.
SIG

SIG: Thanks for your candid response...and I will reconsider the power of the T-shirt without the swear word...Thanks.

Peace,

RTB

Personally, although it's a little long for a T-shirt slogan, I actually quite like your little aphorism:

"Old Colonialism: kick 'em down.
New Colonialism: Why the hell aren't you standin' up?"

Hope you won't mind if I use it from time to time.

I think it is best to continue to see what we can do to help them.The mess Euro-Canadians created with/for the FN people will take several generations to overcome.

SIG I find your statement to be incredilby patronizing, paternalistic and, in suggesting that poor little FN "need" our help to overcome their problems, racist.

I believe in equality between between the various races, religions and ethnicities not the creation of special status and special rights for a minority as a ruse to gain control over the land and resources that belong to all of us.

I was born in BC and am therefore native to this province and we are all indigenous to this planet.

In 1999 when Washington State's Makah started whaling again there was an article in the Georgia Straight about the divisions it created within the band. When "the chiefs" were approached about it one of them dismissed their opposition contemptuously because their spokesperson "was descended from slaves" and therefore had no right to criticize or challenge them in any way.

That is traditional native culture, is that what you wish to see a return to?

As I was saying:

( )

The new treaty offers in excess of $60 million to the 348-member band and a valuable chunk of coastal farmland, being rezoned for industrial use to expand the Roberts Bank superport. The deal is an important victory for all three leaders. Campbell is getting the first tangible proof his "new relationship" with the province's aboriginals is working. Once passed, the treaty also clears the way for first nations and their partners to build more roads and container facilities around the Roberts Bank superport, essential to the Liberal government's ambitious plans to expand trade to Asia.

( )

Controversy, however, is sure to follow for all three leaders in the days and weeks ahead, as the treaty is dissected.

( )

For Campbell, the controversy will come with the removal of land from the province's Agricultural Land Reserve, the land bank created in the 1970's to contain urban sprawl, protect green space and ensure the Lower Mainland retains the ability to feed itself.

Source: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=507c6d05-ccf8-4473-beec-65af06e737c7&p=1

KJC,
I work with FN people. The words I used about it taking generations comes from my listening to them and their saying what it will take for them to prosper. So don't assume I am "patronizing / paternalistic".

Well it won't be taking generations for the "impoverished" Tsawwassen to prosper. Or to dig up the ALR to make make way for roads and container port expansion.

Expect to see more announcements of industrial developmental activities of FN and their "partners" in the near future.

kjc
On that subject, I think you're likely bang on. The current Campbell government appears o be doing everything it can to finesse a certain kind of reaction from native bands. I hope no one is too surrprised that it is doing a lot less to address the endemic poverty on those reserves as well...among other things.
I have a very bad feeling that we're are rapidly being moved toward the 'Alberta' model in these matters.

Where's Oilbertan when you need him?

Kjc

The problem of course is the bands claim 130% of BC, all was not peace and happiness when the Europeans arrived.

I hear the Nancut are drafting a agreement, I hope it helps, one of the more depressing Reserves I have been to.

Both you and RTB are right, there are some big divisions between the various bands and within the bands as to which track to follow. The Taltan have been grappling with issue for quite some time. What some people fail to see is that the FN are human beings with all of the good and bad that brings, building a myth that they are more “in touch” is as false as claiming they are “lazy and good for nothing”

G west
I don’t follow everything in the gas fields as I deal more with nuts and bolts issues, but it was not lost on me that they are building an import terminal.

Alcibiades
I did get around to answering you in the nuke thread, sorry for the wait.

Alcibiades - I am not familiar with the "Albertan" model, can you explain?

Colin - Where are the Nancut located?

Like any other society, I think there are huge divisions within FN as to what is going on. I think some are likely genuinely distrissed about turn things are taking. Others are just looking forward to being rich in the delusion that more money will solve their problems.

Sweet Medicine (Cheyanne)

from In The Spirit of Crazy Horse by Peter Matthiessen

South end of Stuart lake along Nancut Creek