Great quote NDN, 'nuff said I think.
Too bad too many people are clouded by western media and feel that many of the wars of the last half-century are justified in some way or another. One day, perhaps in a few generations our Youth will again decide it's time for a change and help to reshape the world. Until then we will continue along this path of 'righteousness' and impose our will and ideologies on others who may not share our same views.
Good reads: Race Against Time - Stephen Lewis ; Confessions of an Economic Hitman - John Perkins
should be mandatory reading for all if nothing else just to give them a different view.
Many documentaries out there that should also be viewed by all, most recently "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism"

Now the israelis are even bombing ambulances!! (in addition to civilians and civic infastructure)
good work harper-that sounds like a "measured" response. looks like you learned your lesson from history and the untold suffering of others.
the thing about being haunted I guess is one needs to have a conscience first.

Unfortunate that The Tyee chose to appropriate Kim's photo. I don't believe it should be used to prop-up specious comparisons of Vietnam with Iraq.

Yeah!
Everybody knows from fox "news" that the war in iraq is a civilized and humane conflict devoid of atrocities and horror like that depicted in the tyee's poor choice of pictures.

Back in the '60's we were able to bring war resistors into Canada and they could stay here protected from their persecutors. Today it is different, our government, and this happened even before the Harpocrit, has decided to pander to Yanqui fascism and deny them succor. We will have to hide these people some how.

Great that we are speaking about this at least.

Better would be to put it into writing or performance (as film, stage or music).

Then take the show around, following the Marine Recruiters, whenever we see them talk with someone, we give them a free ticket to the show, talk or performance. At least inform these young folks of what the consequences of their actions are.

At the very least tell everyone you know that is thinking of signing up on the dotted line to read, no really read All Quiet on the Western Front and Seven Men of Gascony then consider what these stories may mean in their own lives.

Point out to them that a recent 20 year veteran of the Canadian Peacekeeper forces got his gold watch, it came addressed at the end of a laser-guided munition.

Or Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbo.

jesterjogger - then why not post one of the hundreds of images that have come out of Iraq--?

Maybe they used that picture because it's widely known. No picture in recent times, other than the police chief of siagon executing that suspected viet-cong perhaps, shows the brutal nature of war in a more viseral manner.
The mainstream jewish media is continually trying to mitigate and apologize for israel's savage tactics in this conflict so it's harder than ever to wake people up to the atrocities that our government is condoning, if not endorsing!!!!
Harper should have to stare at that picture for an hour every day before he rushes headlong into further foolish decisions.
That is unless he is so committed to "the cause" that he is willing to lead the troops himself. You know like bush and cheney did when it was their turn to do their duty.

Isn`t that what the main character in Johnny Got His Gun hoped for Apegirl?
To travel about the country in a glass case .

Ain't figured it out yet, have ya wingnut nightbloomers? We're all onto ya, and figure you're a total intellectually challenged git.

I, on the other hand, figure you are totally challenged. No apparent redeeming qualities whatsoever. :-)

Still-, have a nice day. :-)

Entirely appropriate picture.

Which comes to you via the same folks who brought you Vietnam, and are now rampaging across the Middle East, with their new South Vietnam style tame government ally, so-called Likud Israel, the Zionist Occupiers of Palestine. And who can forget about Iraq and Afghanistan, all with the same Yankee bootprints on their naked backs.

The same imperialist Empire folks from the good ol' USA, this time with a Zionist proxy, partying hardy across the globe with their tanks, guns, phosphorous and depleted uranium ordinances, latent homosexuality imbued Abhu Graibs, Guantanamos and Gaza Strips-, bringing peace and freedom to the Middle East.

What a pathetic little fuktard you are.

Today I was sent a link to a disturbing video clip that purports to show armed Hezbollah militants using a UN ambulance for transport:
http://noiri.blogspot.com/2006/07/un-spying-for-hezbollah.html
The same link also has a photo that shows a Hezbollah flag immediately adjacent to the UN post.

I also received a link to a map that purported to show where the Israelis were concentrating their artillery and air strikes. The intent was to demonstrate that these hot zones were very small relative to the size of Beirut as a whole. Here it is:
http://www.israpundit.com/2006/wp-content/images/_Beirutaffectedareas2.jpg

I'm unsure what to make of this information (i.e. whether it is genuine), but it does leave me feeling that things are more complicated than the anti-Israeli response crowd suggests.

Steve P

The most feared Nazi weapon the Allies faced in WW2..from what I`ve gathered from reading and documentaries..was 88 millimetre artillery. This includes veteran Canadians, Yanks, Russians, whomever.
The Israelis are shelling civilian areas with 154 millimetre artillery...day and night! Can you imagine what that must be like for those under this barrage..especially children...if I have to listen to a leaf blower for more than 5 minutes I just about go mad.

Artillery is relatively cheap and as long as the folks you are killing, have no aircraft from which the shooters would have to duck, pretty safe. Just ask the canadian army, who are using similar guns in their "reconstruction" of Afghanistan. Some body gets hurt, call in a US helicopter. But as we all know Steve doesn't believe we should cut and run. We being anyone but him and his cabinet or any family relation that we know about who by some quirk of fate may have joined the reserve for a eduction in university but would find quite a different one "in County"
I'm ex military and have told my grandkids and kids. If you see a military recruiter, run the other way.

Wonder what the wife of our most recent casualty in Lebanon , dead in a marked UN bunker, clearly marked on the maps. You know the place that called the Israely friends of steve Harpo 10 times before getting killed.

What might she have to say to Steve should he and his boss General shows up at the guys funeral. War isn't a big game. Might even get less of them if the politicians were in the front rank.
Killing is a messy business. a lot of the ones who survive are quite twisted, some physical, and lots mentally. For what cause.

Steve asked (Referring to the U.N. observers) " What were they doing there in an obvious War Zone?"

Didn`t Steve also have something to say awhile back about not "cutting and running?" "We don`t cut and run"

Brave UN Observers are there to "observe" that rules of war, etc are not being violated so maybe the Israeli's wanted to make sure they were not observed - especially since the U.S. is fast-tracking new bunker smart bombs to them. After 10 warning calls in 6 hours about being too close with their bombs to a clearly marked long established UN Post - firing 3 precision laser bombs at the Post - accidental? I've got a bridge to sell you....

Jesterjogger - I have also seen the horrendouss video of the two ambulances being bombed and paramedics and patients wounded further - the thing is both ambulances were in a stationery position with blue lights flashing and a spotlight shining on the big red cross on the roof of the vehicles.
On the BBC the little eight year old boy so badly burned he can't open his eyes from the white phosphorous the Israeli's are using in the warheads. And there is Horrible Harper saying "measured response" and it was an accident. We have to take our country back. The media isn't reporting so much stuff it is unbelievable, the next thing will be a fair elections - because these people will do anything to keep Horrible Harper in power - just like the States and Bush election.

The only way for Israel to defeat Hizbollah is to forget about niceties, and go in with all guns blazing. This is too important to worry about collateral damage. We could be collateral damage if Israel doesnt win.
If they manage to destroy Israel, what's next? Spain, France,Canada ?
Surely nobody can believe these Islam Fascists Won't be happy until the destroy western civilisation.
I don't know about you, but I kinda like my life, and don't really want to turn power to a dark Islamic world.
I can't imagine half of our population, women, being happy to serve under this Muslim regime.
I can't imagine why so many of you don't see that. What are you wishing for?

And, just for the record, that naked Vietnamese girl, now is a proud American citizen living in California.
Very happy without any apologetic Govt. interference.

After receiving permission, she then moved to Cuba, and met Bui Huy Tuan. In 1989 Út went to Cuba to meet her and her fiance. Kim Phuc and Bui Huy Tuan married and, in 1992, they went on a honeymoon. During an airplane refueling in Gander, Newfoundland, Canada, they got off the plane and defected to Canada. They now live in Toronto and have two children.

In 1996, she met the surgeons who saved her life.

IAMC...she lives in Canada...she was awarded the Order of Ontario...C`mon man
you can`t be this weird.

On October 22, 2004, she was awarded an honorary Doctorate of Laws from York University in Toronto, Ontario, Canada for her work to aid child victims of war around the world. In 2004, she was awarded the Order of Ontario.

bob; if I am wrong ( again ) i am sorry, but I really think she ended up in California.
I will dig into it.

She HAS lived around North America but has settled in Toronto with her 2 sons and husband.

mommy; how do you know that? I am willing to accept what you are stating, but where are you getting your information?

IAMC

That kind of talk and fear mongering is the not helpful in a world full of leaders, many of whom are fools, warmongers, and imperialists - we need leaders that will work towards peace to avoid a clash of civilizations rather than rush towards it. In the end we are all persons with families and loved ones - and years and years of destructions and oppression imposed on some will never be solved by force, in the end we will have to TALK to each other. It has always been thus over and over again in history.

You say Islam facists won't be happy until they destroy western civilization. They did not invade and occupy any western countries, but who has invaded their countries and are trying to destroy their civilization and way of life??? The U.S. with the advice of the neo-cons have made Iraq a country of death, destruction and misery for the Iraq people. Israel has been conducting a brutal occupation and treatment of the Palestinians and now instead of negotiating and prisoner exchange they attacked and have opened another hornet nest of war with the foolish thinking that they could go in and force and actually with US blessing intend to kill and kill every hesbollah member thinking this would bring them security? It will never happen and it not the way they will ever achieve security. Security will never come out of spreading hate and anger.

IAMC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

IAMc
If you google her name "Kim Phuc" you will get her web page to her foundation. If you scroll to "history"
it tells her story and mentions that she now lives in Toronto with her family. Have a great night.

"If they manage to destroy Israel, what's next? Spain, France,Canada ?
Surely nobody can believe these Islam Fascists Won't be happy until the destroy western civilisation."

And they call us paranoid? Where do you get this stuff from?

anarcho; you are probably comfortable, great.
And I am , as well.
And I would like to remain happy and comfortable.
Because of this, I seek comfort in knowing that Russia, India, Indonesia, America, Britain, Australia, Turkey, Ukraine, Japanese, multi country armies have pitched in on the war on terror.
I hope you understand.

IAMC (I AM Clueless is quite fitting)

If you really seek comfort knowing that Russia is really 'pitching-in' on the 'war on terror'; please at least skim over these:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1734490&page=1

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/index.cfm?fa=eventDetail&id=520

The 'Russians' are a hodge-podge mix of the left overs of the KGB and GRU mixed with the Mafiya youngbloods. I should not count on them to do anything that goes against 'their' interests.

I second murdock's choices of All Quiet on the Western Front and Seven Men of Gascony. Too many kids wanna jump from their playstation into a war zone.

It occured to me that the entire premise of GWB's Crusade doesn't make any sense whatsoever, now that Israel has joined the WoT.

War on Terror.

Think about it. Which is the worse of the two. An Act or Terror, or an Act of War?

Recently Hezbollah commited act(s) of terror by killing and kidnapping Israeli solders.

As a response, Israel committed an Act of War, a bombing in Lebanon.

The act of terror claimed about 7 lives.

The Act of War has claimed hundreds of lives, thousands of casualties.

Same with 9-11 and Afghanistan, the resulting act of war by the USA claimed 10 times as many lives as 2 airplanes.

Then Iraq, with only a potential act of terror, and 100,000+ have died as a result of the US invasion.

Frankly IAMC, you should grow some gonads and learn to live with acts of terror as the price of freedom, because it would be much worse in you were involved in acts of war.

But then, it is exactly your kind of chickenshit gutless fear that enables idealogue wackos to bomb peasants in the third world.

Good Day, I-AM-Chicken

Steve P - Thanks for that blog link and the map. They raise some very interesting questions. I forwarded them to friends I know who are following this stuff closely, as I know they'll find them interesting also.

Re. Kim Phuc - I think she successfully sued for the rights to her photograph back in the nineties. She also had a very emotional meeting with the U.S. pilot who sprayed the napalm (as much for the pilot as for her). I saw a documentary about her several years ago, and she's been a very warmly received speaker at Vietnam Veterans' reunions in the past. She also seemed to be fully integrated into U.S. culture, and said that she forgives everything that happened to her.

Steve is cut from the same cloth as nightbloom; attempting to hide his fundamentally neoconservative world views behind a poorly defined "liberal" front/facade.

Like nightbloom, he needs to come out of the closet, 'cause folks are catching onto you any, and just argue your positions openly and honestly. If we can tolerate IAMClueless, you're just the same handshake away from him as the Davie St. Nightbloomer.

And what the hell about attacking a military unit is an act of "terror" anyway. The Hezbollah did, in the incident of attacking the Zionist gunship patrol, what we have been saying all legitimate resistance fighters should do-, focus their attacks on military targets and not civilians.

One can advance many legitimate criticisms of Hezbollah, their ideology, tactics and strategies, but they are less a terrorist organization than is IDF. Yes, Hezbollah is sending rockets into Occupied Palestine, doing random damage-, in response to the Zionist levelling of entire communities of innocents in Lebanon.

This is no where, technologically, a fair fight, and the extreme imbalance in the distribution of the casualty figures is a demonstration of that. Hezbollah is fighting as a guerrilla force, fundamentally light infantry equipped, up against a fully modern land, sea and air army supplied the Zionist Occupiers by the US Empire. (And yet they whine about Syria and Iran.)

This is the context of this current engagement between the "peoples" of the Middle East, in Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan, against a superior foreign militarily invader and occupation force.
Outside of some Katyushas, which are demonstrating some capability, no doubt, they basically have only their bodies and courage to throw into the breach.

Hezbollah, whatever one might say about them, and I do not share their religious ideological underpinnings, nonetheless, as a patriotic Arab force of resistance to invasion and occupation, get my respect.

Of course this current engagement between the forces of foreign imperialism and occupation on the one hand, and patriotic resistance on the other, has its own unique characteristics, but the echoes with Vietnam, to anyone with half a brain, are almost haunting in their evocation. For starters, the underlying and fundamental causes of the two conflicts are fundamentally the same-, resistance to foreign imperialist occupation.

Canadians, very many, may have some difficulty understanding the rationale of such a patriotic cause, but is only because we have, to here anyway of recent times, placed too little value upon our own national independance, and have been content to sit idly by and watch it slip away-, to the same essential power that Hezbollah are up against. Hopefully that will change. But it still has not-, to a sufficient degree. In my view.

Rebel

The Canadian Officer killed noted in his e-mail that the IDF was targeting the area nearby out of “tactical necessity”. Meaning that Hezbollah had set up either beside or in the compound. The UN should pulled the observers the minute that Hezbollah did this. As usual the UN HQ bungled it, just like they did with the Belgium’s in Rwanda.

As for the Islamist, I suggest that you do some research, you will find that Islamist radicals are a very nasty bunch. They are oppressing people around the world. 20 years ago you would rarely see a headscarf on a woman in Indonesia or Malaysia, now the Burka is appearing there. They have a goal and that is to make the world totally Islamic and following a 1400 year old version of Sharia law.

This fight is Israel reward for leaving Lebanon and Gaza, no good deed will go unpunished there. In fact Hezbollah by their own words were counting on a “weak response” from Israel, so any attempt to be restrained will only encourage them to make more attacks.

So Coyote if this was a resistance against Israel as an occupier, which part of Lebanon was Israel occupying at the time? Don’t say Shebba farms as the UN ruled they were part of Syria, who was illegally occupying Lebanon until recently and I suppose the Iranian National Guard bodies that Syria admitted across their borders from Lebanon were also invited guests of Lebanon?

The difference between the two is that Vietnam was quite willing to negotiate with the US after the war and has opened itself up to the ties with the US, Hezbollah and Hamas stated goals are the totally destruction of Israel and it’s people.

Steve is cut from the same cloth as nightbloom; attempting to hide his fundamentally neoconservative world views behind a poorly defined "liberal" front/facade.

I think DPL meant Stephen Harper.

I understand that nuanced perspectives confuse you, but I'm not that easily pigeonholed. Yes, I'm conservative on defence and foreign policy, liberal (as in progressive) on social & environmental policy, and moderate in fiscal policy. It isn't a big secret =^)

Hi Bob,

It is because artillery is so devastating that I was curious to know where the targets were.

Although the sound is surely terrifying for those living in areas near the targets, I think there is a significant difference between hearing bombing and being bombed. There is a big difference between levelling a city and bombing neighbourhoods, although neither are best case scenarios.

I'm a city planner by trade, so my imagination is going bananas imagining the impacts, and wondering whether the brunt of the assault is local in nature or dispersed less discriminately across Beirut -- I think the difference is significant.

Good to know someones got their fingers on the pulse of this thing nightbloom..must be pretty darned important folks.

I feel so much better after viewing the map...of Course! HOTSPOTS!...The shelling is very precise and only hitting bad guys..they`re not actually levelling the whole city.. just hotspots..like say the downtown East Side..and after all these are the bombs of liberty ...sacred bombs..blessed by Israeli children..the birth pangs...you know the routine.. the rockets red glare.. the bombs bursting in air...these people should feel blessed to receive this holy ordinance on their heads...the baptism of liberation.
I`m outta here for awhile..maybe a long while...gotta tile a bathroom..

Well, Shebba Farms for one. As you well know, so-called Israel has ignored hundreds of UN resolutions brought against it, which you rationalized away here just a few days ago, as justified. Well, Lebanon has some dispute with this ruling of a yet SuperPower dominated and imbalanced UN, especially at the level of the Security Council. (Better the Security Council should be abolished, and a population weighted General Assembly be the vetoe power.)

But outside of that, as you ignore but are doubtless aware, there is a dispute being fought out as to the legitimacy of the establishment of the Zionist State in the first place. You know the history and the reality of so-called Israel being founded upon a transplanted European Jewish population, after a campaign of terror visited upon the Palestinian peoples, so I won't revisist all that.

Regardless of the wishes or rulings of the Western imperialist/colonialist states however, the facts on the ground are that Palestinians and their Arab regional brothers and sisters are attempting to determine the final factual outcome, not the phony legalistic diktats of resurgent Colonialism through a phony Zionist Occupation State, in league with the new US Empire and the Old, still clinging to hope, rump British Empire.

Paper is just paper Colin, as you well know. I give you that much credit. In the end it is the facts on the ground, as yet clearly unresolved, and contingent on the capacity of the Arab Nation, as defined and evolved by themselves, not the West, its capacity to resist and endure up against the might of the US Empire and its flunky allies, including the Zionists and Neoconservative Canada, and which often in its contradictoriness includes the UN, that will really decide the matter on the last day of this current period. History is more real people, their flesh and blood sacrifices, and the events that move them and which they create, which in the end bury all attempts such as yours to impose an over-riding, often privileged weighted "Paper Reality".

Like I say, it is in the interests of this country that the US Empire, and all who aid and abet it, be defeated and humbled in this latest empire/imperialist venture of theirs in the Middle East. If they walk away from this victorious and emboldened, made even more arrogant, you can kiss any meaningful independance and self-reliance for this country good-bye. It is already all but gone, save in name only, especially under this bootlicking Harper regime.

On the other hand, a major defeat for the US Empire, and a major bleed down of its blood and treasure, HOPEFULLY, for me, may encourage Canadians to finally step away from their own dependant position, and resolve them to strike off and strengthen this country's own "independant" place in the world, and the humane/egalitarian character of our society.

There is no world to be feared more, in my view, than one in which the US Empire, in league with the Zionist Occupiers of Palestine, are in the end able to subject and bend the Arab Nation to their will. It is a scenario which, in its implications, spells the quickened pace of a disaster to any kind of a Canada which I can, at least, relate to.

My view is that, objectively, this country has more in common with the Arabs in many, many important and strategical regards, than it does to either our US Empire neighbour to the south or the Zionist State of Occupied Palestine. At least in regards these national survival and development issues.

Bob-the-Cat, don't be silly. That wasn't what I meant. I've been having an ongoing discussion on another forum about this, and posted Steve P's links. Sometimes it's worthwhile to show some courteous appreciation when someone makes an effort to share new information sources, Bob.

Bob:

Of course it would be preferable if there were no shelling of civilians at all.

I don't understand how you can blur the distinction between shelling specific neighbourhoods and levelling a whole city. Both are bad situations, but levelling a city is far, far worse than shelling portions of a city.

Coyote sez. "Like I say, it is in the interests of this country that the US Empire, and all who aid and abet it, be defeated and humbled in this latest empire/imperialist venture of theirs in the Middle East. If they walk away from this victorious and emboldened, made even more arrogant, you can kiss any meaningful independance and self-reliance for this country good-bye."

Exactly! One thing I hope to live long enough to see is the fucker come down! Also who knows how many Bolivians and Venezuelans they would be murdering. I have said this before, if the Empire was not bogged down in the Middle East they would be doing a Pinochet number on our Latin American brothers and Sisters.

Great discussion. I'm new to this forum and I'm learning a lot.

One thing I think is important to note, though, is this is not as complicated a problem as some contributors on this site make it out to be.

Coyote, for instance, understands this. He knows that Israelis are simply "Zionist occupiers of Palestine", the news we get on the subject comes from "the mainstream jewish media" and that anyone who disagrees is a "pathetic little fucktard".

Be careful, though, Coyote because you can bet that there are some people who, hell-bent on seeing two sides to this issue, are going to try to discredit you. They could even resort to name calling. The fucktards may actually accuse you of being anti-Semitic.

My advice to you is to not give them that opportunity. Just use more neutral language such as "Dirty Jew" or "Jewish Swine".

You've got that exactly right, only Latin America knows it, and is on the move NOW trying to secure themselves as a bloc, and to cut the ties that bind with Washington. Now whether they will be able to move fast enough or not, before the Empire has its ass hustled out of the Middle East (hopefully sufficiently weakened and drained by the experience that they can't do dick but whimper and lick their wounds in the corner", that is another question.

Had we the brains as a nation, and 1/2 the cojones, we would be moving in solidarity lockstep with our hemispheric brothers and sisters, to isolate and try and tame the US, to a level it is fit and possible to live with, without constantly having to worry about it eating one of us, or simply savaging us, as an exercise.

Clear Cut,

You're not new. You've been here before, Fuk, ya never left. You sound just like IAMC, Capitalism, nightbloom or any of that ilk. You're just trying to give us an examply of your old soft shoe verbal shuffle.

Cute, but it's a dance routine that's been done here before as well. Got anything really original? We'd be interested in that. At least I'd be intested.

Ohhhh, and I know full well the danger that comes from the goosing in step Fuktard Legions. Like I say, I've been around for a long time.

Still, we all wanna' take life easy and shag ourselves silly, but sometimes it's really true: No Pain, No Gain. If you're gonna make an omellet, you gotta be prepared to break a few eggs.

But then, you know all that too. Right?

Like, "Power comes out of the barrel of..."

You thought I was gonna say, "...your dick." :-)

Right?

Nah, even I'm smarter than that. :-)

Clear cut-off sez,
"Be careful, though, Coyote because you can bet that there are some people who, hell-bent on seeing two sides to this issue"

Who ever said there wern't two sides to an issue? Of course there are. Sometimes there are even more than 2 sides. But in the case mentioned there are two sides - one of the oppressed and the other of the oppressor. Which side are you on?
And please don't play the stupid game of criticism of Zionism = anti-semitism. This sort of argument is totalitarian. It is the same twisted logic as "criticism of the Soviet Union = Trotskyite-Bukharinite-anarchofascist Gestapo Agent Imperialist running dog."

Meaningful dialogue is the establishments biggest fear, don't let the dogs lead you into hate language , sometimes you win by making the debate foggy, the truth is powerful and the
so called elite of this county have done their best to suppress it at every step , you know
small unedited blogs like the tyee scare the crap out of them, don't let some yahoo suck you
in and ruin this democracy. Good words coyote,

Some actions we can do,

1) Have solidarity with our Lebanese brothers , the Lebanese community across this country is
upset by Herr Harpers bootlick response to the conflict. Licking the earlobes of Bush is very unappealing to Canadians. 52,000 Lebanese Canadians are going to punish Harper next election, lets add our voices and our votes.

Lets expand this issue to all Canadians from that region,

2) Lets start talking to our neighbors about Harpers sell out on softwood and other issues. Start calling him Benadick Harper for his sell out of his Rural ridings, his non response to farm
issues etc.

3) Lets lobby the other MP's to stand up , NDP or Liberal,

Lets Support either by your money or time independent media.

Lets not feed bread to the dogs, the anti Jewish response always gets you tagged anti Semitic.

Protest Rally and March

Saturday, July 29, 1:00pm

Vancouver Art Gallery

And I wish I was able to be there at that demonstration Stuart. Distances preclude it, however.

But your point is taken, and in my final comment for the day I would say, that if you cannot see the important distinctions I make, entirely in my comments above, between the Zionist State occupiers of Palestine, and the genuine regret and sympathy I have that the long suffering Jewish people have been drawn into yet another great manipulation of them, through the creation of false hopes and ambitions, by their reliance on an aggressive Euro-Amerikan imperialist set of interests that are using them yet again, then you have neither read me, or you equate any criticism of militant Zionism especially, with automatic anti-semitism.

Both Palestinians and Jews are Semites IN FACT. They share the same ancient blood line, from before the time of the Roman enforced Jewish Diaspora. But nearly 3000 years since that historic injustice began gives them no claim, having since become a part of the world population of many lands, and less a national ethnicity, to the land which the Palestinians continued to occupy. To attempt to legitimize this and claim a right of defence is itself an injustice, the second wrong that does not either make a right.

My hope is that in the last hour of this titanic struggle, from which the sheer weight of numbers is in the end going to carry the day, as they learn to better and better resist, a charitable peace of some useful kind will still be forged between these two suffering peoples. That will allow them to share the same land.

Some, the wealthy who were set upon being a dominant ruling class in Israel, the Zionists, can and will always flee to richer pickings from which they came. It is these other Jews, who will have much less of an option of that who are the ones that I would urge the Palestinians, though it will be hard for all the pain I know, to forgive, create a new "unified model" secular Palestinian State, and move on together.

That is my real hope.

Hezbollah has already won the war. By surviving this long against Israel and still launching rockets against targets inside that country they've carried the day.

Arab pride is being heightened by their resistance.

Don`t know if you get this daily list Frank if not this might interest you.
'Everything In My Life Is Destroyed, So I Will Fight Them'

By Dahr Jamail

"I am in Hezbollah because I care," the fighter, who agreed to the interview on condition of anonymity, told me. "I care about my people, my country, and defending them from the Zionist aggression." I jotted furiously in my note pad while sitting in the back seat of his car. We were parked not far from Dahaya, the district in southern Beirut which is being bombed by Israeli warplanes as we talk. Continue
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article14243.htm

Arab pride is being heightened by their resistance. said Frank.

You've nailed it, Frank. That's the fact of the matter.

And we ain't near begun to feel the consequences of this yet, as the entire Arab Resistance is encouraged and begins to find its stride. This gets whole bunches uglier before it's over, and unfortunately, fuk the Zionist State, it's the Jewish people who bought into their dream who are most likely to pay the bitterest price.

I hope not. I hope not. But there's just so much bitterness... The Arabs, and rightly so, are really, really pissed.

Good link bob the cat, thanks

Thanks Coyote, you're right, the Arabs are really pissed

Why don't YOU go in guns blazing, IAMC? The rest of us are tired of your macho, your posturing, your hiding behind others.

When I felt that way, I was young and stupid, but had the guts to put myself where my mouth was. We'll take up a collection for the tickets.

Good way to learn a stern lesson.

IAMC,

When I said "YOU" in the above post, I didn't mean you personally, but all those who lust for the blood of others, without feeling the cost themselves.

Thanks for your kind words 'gkam' Gee killing Americans matter.
I am older, but would be happy to fight against Islam Fascism.
How do you know that I am not already doing so?
I can see many posters are hoping Israel loses this WAR. Why? do you want to be next?
We don't deserve to be annihilated. Maybe you do, but I am going to fight it, and win.
But thanks 'gkam' "God's kindness always mimicked" you are obviously a very stupid person.

News from Seattle. A man, named Naveed Hag, a Muslim ( not that it matters of course ) burst into the offices of The Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, produced a hand gun and proceeded to kill one woman and injuring five others.
Three of the remaining woman were in critical condition Friday.
Kind of like the Moroccan Muslim who gunned down 14 women in Quebec.
I just don't know why so many of you want the bad guys to win.

Oh my, we have turned my protestations of organized violence into grist for an accusation that I want Israel to "lose" their invasion of Lebanon.

It seems to me that you are reacting emotionally, and ascribing whatever you want to believe as "the real reasons" for the way others think and act.

"I am older, but would be happy to fight against Islam Fascism." That's exactly what extremists want you to do - maximize damage.

Killing for peace doesn't work. We tried it in the sixties. And it's a juvenile response. You kill and die for your cause. I'll live and work for mine. Let's see who achieves the most and the best.

Marc Lepine's father was Algerian, his mother a French Canadian former nun.

Geez. Coulda been the Catholic in him that went postal.

No Apegirl ( I can't believe I just Typed that )
Marc Le pine was raised in a male dominated, traditional, Muslim family, and he personally hated women, as is the way with these extreme Islamists.
His mother was beaten by his father. He was beaten by his father.
Extreme feminists latched on to this horrific mass murder, as if it was committed by regular day to day Canadian, white male, and that's what is so objectionable about their bogus stance.
These extreme feminists parlayed this into a gun registry.
Apegirl, what a great label.

Coyote
The UN declared the farms as part of Syria, who “gave” to Lebanon an easy thing to do as Israeli hold it. A propaganda move to maintain a pretense, you can bet they would not let it go if they sat on it, in fact they had to be forced out of Lebanon by their own bungling of the assassination. If you hate the West so much why don’t you move?

Frank
You said far more in your simple statement than all of Coyotes ramblings, Hezbollah will come out of this as the winner at least in the eyes of the Arab world, and that is what counts for them. It might have been different if the Lebanoese Army could counter them in their reduced state but highly unlikely and is not likely that a robust force from Europe is going to be able to move in and prevent them from reestablishing. At best the IDF may have bought themselves another 6 years before the next major conflict with them, barring some unforeseen event. If they fired Chemical weapons, the IDF would make southern Lebanon a wasteland. However as the Iranian appear to be in control of the larger rockets, I doubt they will let it escalate that far even if they have the capacity.

Apegirl
Gamil Gharbi I think was his real name, I have the coroners report at work so I would have to check. His father was abusive and taught his son to despise woman, he was the perfect recruit for a terrorist, had radical Islam being more active at the time he would have been a terrorist, in fact by keeping that side of the story quiet, I suspect that radical Islam had far more influence on his action than admitted. All terrorist groups recruit people with major issues like him for certain tasks. Although not proven one way or another, it quite possible could be the first Islamic attack on Canadian soil.

Apegirl;
Just Google Marc Le pine and see what you get. The fact that extreme feminists have been so desperate, in Canada, to have pinned this Montreal massacre on us regular, day to day Canadians, without guns, is the real point.

I am a woman who is old enough to remember the Polytechnique murders. I fail to understand how "extreme feminists" (and I would love to see that reality show) should have blamed Islam for that terrible event. That is the "real point"! Of what? This article? Your misogyny? Your hatred of "the other" in your nostril-flaring, us-and-them world view? I merely pointed out Lepine's ethnic origins to illustrate that nothing is black and white (no pun intended). The world is more complicated than any of us will ever understand, least of all you. Perhaps if Lepine's mother had not been a former nun, and thus well trained in obedience (one of the chief virtues of a woman in the Church, and I know whereof I speak) she could have stood up to her husband, gotten her son out of that situation and taught him that women are not punching bags (or live targets).

Now I can't wait for Colin and IAMC to explain how Muslims kindled WWII, created AIDS and faked the moon landing.

Stuart

Recently I have been giving this topic much thought, as I have a friend recently returned from Afghanistan and I, with other friends, do not want him to go back - we may have finally convinced him to re-think any plans of return.

The conversations and the small intimate nature of them got me thinking about a different path to the solution of this particular 'sticky wicket'.

Instead of the enormous rally, or the gigantic peace march or the BIG EVENT, why not quietly organize personal encounters? Singular conversations with veterans or journalists that survived. Make the 'performances' more like something from a fringe festival and less like what Michael Moore is doing.

The why for switching to smaller focus becomes clear when you consider how easy it is for the 'other side' to marginalize the BIG EVENT; whereas it is impossible for the 'other side' to even know where, when or what is being said or done in the smaller intimate meetings.

My inspiration for this thought comes from Tolstoy whom put forward the thoughts about when evil men organize towards a common goal, then so must men of good conscience. Rather than use the tools that the 'other side' is using: mass media, loudspeakers, pushy infomercials, slogans, logos and signs; why not 'take the other path' and use a more personable approach, with smaller numbers at each encounter but get the message out all the same?

The sentiment is nice Murdock, but I suggest, unworkable across the whole of society and its large mass of people. My view.

There is a need to change the viewpoint and motivate large masses of people within society to act, again my view, and isolated "individualist" efforts, while it may suit your own ideology, is not only practically unworkable is like the ant floating down the river on his back, lying on a leaf, with an erection in his hand, yelling, "RAISE THE DRAWBRIDGE!"

To reach the numbers of people that need to be reached, one needs to develop the strategies and tactics that of their nature catch mass attention and act as examples of what people "united" and in "motion' enmasse can do, as opposed to in individualist isolation, however much the latter strategy is less threatening to "the system" and "the bourgeois mentality", so to speak. :-)

When masses gather and demonstrate, and engage in the other practical things to influence policy that large organized numbers can do, the individual effort while important in itself is amplified many fold. And when of sufficient mass CAN actually quickly and radically compel changes in policy direction, witness France recently, and even if necessary bring down governments (even between elections", withness the collapse of the Communists in the USSR etc.

So, in summary of my view, while individual committment and effort is of huge importance to effective political action, that individual effort is made much more powerful and likely to succeed across the whole of society, as part of a united, mass movement, collective effort.

Though what you suggest might make you feel personally good, and is a good thing, I concede, of itself is inadequate to the size of the transformative task which needs to be carried out within status quo society and "the world"-, in my view. It is too little too late, as they say.

Raise Hell, Stuart and folks.

You know what they say about nice guys. It's the same for The Left.

The news is just now beginning to report that the Zionist forces are pulling back from... How does one spell it? ...the hilltop town of Bin Jamil.(?) The Zionists say they have finished what they set out to do and it is not a "retreat", about which some skepticism is being expressed by observers. They appear to be pulling back to their starting point at the border-, at least at this time.

Clearly, it is going to take some time yet for all this to clarify but, if true as was said at the beginning of these events, "Israeli military officials have said they want to push Hezbollah beyond the Litani River, about 20 miles north of the border..." (Yahoo News) they are clearly not going to achieve this objective. Indeed they're hardly more than a couple miles in and just MAY be starting to pull back.

Whatever the significance of this pullback turns out to be, clearly Hezbollah has turned out to be one hell of a tough opponent, and at least thus far, has fought the much vaunted US equipped Zionist Army to a standstill. Which will be encouraging at least to resistance fighters across the Arab World. (And I'm hoping, change the tactical direction of Al Quaida somewhat, and finally secure an operational unity between Sunni and Shia factions in the Arab Resistance movement.)

Anyway, still early days, and one should never count one's chickens until they are actually hatched.

As for leaving the West, Colin. It's not my style. I don't cut and run. 8-D LOL. I'm more inclined to stand and fight to transform society, and thereby contribute to changing the imperialist direction instincts characteristic of "The West's" capitalist system.

Though at some point, you may be more inclined to leave, say for Capitalist China. Yourself, IAMC and Nightbloom could all hold hands, to soothe yourselves in flight.

Peace.

I concur with what Coyote just said about the necessity of mass action. For sure, small group action can be useful - such as was the case with womens conciousness raising groups in the 70's, but to have any level of success it has to be integrated in some maner - formal or informal - within mass action or a mass movement. Virtually every reform we value came about thru mas action Examples? The abolition of the slave trade, then of slavery, the right to vote, both as universal male then female suffrage, the trade union movement, abolition of segregation in the US South, ending apartheid, women's liberation, gay liberation, environmental regulation, and on and on and on...

Murdock...by all means..go for it .. just DO IT! there are people doing just that...especially down south...the large events are great as well..the larger the better!

THE PEOPLE
UNITED
CAN NEVER BE DEFEATED!

Exactly right anarcho: "...in the case mentioned there are two sides - one of the oppressed and the other of the oppressor."

The Jews just don't understand the side of the oppressed because they have always been the ones on top.

First, without any historical ties to the region, the Jews leave their cushy lives in Europe and take over nearly all the land in the Middle East. Remarkably, the Arabs - most likely because they are all models of peace, tolerance and understanding - greeted them with open arms. Then, without provocation of any kind, the Jews - because it's just part of their nature - began their relentless persecution of everyone around them.

Why do people try to make this so complicated? The Jews are the oppressors and they are bad; the Arabs are oppressed and they are good.

commentor: Apegirlposted: 9 Hours AgoMarc Lepine's father was Algerian, his mother a French Canadian former nun.

Geez. Coulda been the Catholic in him that went postal.
-----------------
So what has postal to do with this murderer who hated women? One hopes you arn't suggesting he was a disgruntled postal worker, and if so I take offense having been one for almost 14 years. I do wear the button each year brought out after the killings. some times people ask me what its all about so I tell them As for the murderers family tree, I have no knowledge. The rest of your stuff looks pretty accurate to me. This old BS about radical feminism showing up is simply a crock of manure. I'm no radical feminist, I'm a older male and I feel for those families who had very smart daughters killed because some guy hated intelligent women. WE all fear for our children when the haters of different groups are out and about. Same goes for the guy in Seattle showing up with a hand gun, which the gun registry here was started to reduce the availablity of guns of all sort. Yes , sure guns don't kill people but it's much easier and faster than using a stick

Nations and peoples don't wage wars on others, only leaders do, who then either force, or persuade others to go on killing sprees against other human beings.

History's the worst warmongers have been and are, crazed fundamentalist religionists and ideologues, plus, of course, the professional military in their service.

The greatest war crime of WW2, and I'm not talking about the nazi and communist death camps, which were a different category, were the Allied bombing raids against Europe, destroying cities, while leaving military targets functioning till the last months of WW 2. Look at the nazi war production figures growing till the end of 1944, while the cities were flattened in terror raids.

The German V rockets had the same intention, but never had the numbers of the thousands of planes to achieve the same criminal intents and results.

This plan is now repeating itself in Lebanon, where the generals on both sides are attempting to terrorize the civilian population.

Ed Deak.

I apologize, DPL, for using the term "went postal". It's an expression, one borrowed from American culture. (No slight intended to Americans, either).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal

Listen Clear Cut-off, why should the Arabs have to pay for Europe's long history of Anti-Semitism? Why should England have given Palestine to the Zionist Movement, when it wasn't theirs to give? Why, when given an opportunity for peace, did the Right-Wing Zionists start settling the West Bank and Gaza? I was sympathetic to Israel up till that point. When they settled these areas it was a pure provocation. Isreal could have withdrawn to the 1967 borders, payed compensation to the Palestinians who lost their land in 1948, and allowed the creation of a viable Palestinian state. The rest of the world would have backed Israel. Sure the nuts on both sides would have objected, and launched terrorist actions, but would have been more of a nuisance than a major problem. Finally, there are many anti-Zionist Jews and many moderate Zionists who hate the war-mongering racists of the Zionist Right.

Apegirl
Actually if you do some digging their was a Arab leader that had contacts with Hitler and admired his final solution. Also the Baath party is the heir of the ideologue of the Nationalist Socialist Party of Germany.

Plus you will note that the “crime” the North Vancouver man was executed for was building a school that girls go to. The concept that Islamic radical teaching was part of the motivation for Marc lepine is not far fetched and woman ignore the peril of radical Islam at their own risk.

You should read the coroners report, Lepine had buggered up his gun trying to make it fully auto, it frequently jammed on him and people brushed by him trying to escape while he struggled with it, no one tried to tackle him or stop, the police waited a full hour outside before going in. I blame the government and society for training people to act like sheep, if someone is about to kill you, you might as well fight them.

DPL
Please explain how a registry reduced the number of guns? It’s only purpose was to track and it can’t even do properly.

Coyote
I suspect your style is to ramble on in discussion forums with the occasional forays into the bush with your bow.

Clear cut
I am trying to decide if you are being sarcastic, I see so many far fetched concepts here it’s hard to tell.

Colin,

LOL. Now isn't that sweet. We have both come to just about the same opinion of each other. Except what you are doing or playing with out there in the neocon wilderness, one can only guess.

I actually thought Clear Cut was a friend of yours. He's a clear cut waco. :-)

Peace.

If the gun registry hadn'tstarted I wonder how many guns would have been truned in when gun amnesties are set up.There is no sound reason for any citizen oher than in police work, farmers, forest rangers to name a few exemptions, carryting a weapon, concealed or other wise. But then again, there are always those who tlak about things like. "From these cold hands will you take this gun". Usually from some jerk who never carried one defending their country. I recall the crazy who showed up in the Quebec legislature with an assault semi automatic and was about to clean house. The Seargent at arms, ex military offcier convinced him to give it up. Brave man. And a stupid thug was doing the threatening.

IAMC
posts the following:

We could be collateral damage if Israel doesnt(sic) win.

One might be so bold as to suggest that someone who could imagine and write the words above knows little or nothing of history.

Do a little research fellow.

Start out by studying George Kennan and then follow up with a bit of reading about a thoroughly discredited theory called the domino effect.

Are you only 12 years old?

I’m glad you like your life, most 12 year olds do – it’s only later when they begin to grow up that children realize what reality is about that they become pessimists.

Colin
You are not seriously suggesting that the 'government' is in any real way responsible for Marc Lepine's deadly psychotic outburst are you?

In addition, Colin, without agreeing for even a moment with the generality of what you're saying relative to Nazi connections to Arab extremism, you might want to do a little more research into a few other admirers of the little corporal before you take that analogy very far.

I think people, once they are adults with at least, let's say, a modicum of intelligence and education, are pretty much responsible for their own views - blaming Arab and Muslim extremist views on slavish affection for Nazi precedent is not fair to either the extremists (about whom I think you know more than you acknowledge – particularly their history in Egypt), or the Nazis, in my view.

Any more than blaming the justified antipathy of many thinking Canadian men and women against guns and violence upon the feminist spin imparted on the massacre at l'École Polytechnique de Montréal.

DPL said: "There is no sound reason for any citizen oher than in police work, farmers, forest rangers to name a few exemptions, carryting a weapon, concealed or other wise".

Hi DPL,

"Weapon" is based on intention of the heart...Do you agree??

Our fists could be a weapon, right??

Criminals will always have "weapons" of some kind, maybe even guns. You will NEVER be able to to control the illegal trade in guns...many have tried.

With the exception of very rare gun accidents, why do you suggest good and honerable citizens should not have guns??

If someone attempted to kill you or your family, would you simply WISH you had a way to defend them??

Myself as a gal and a mom, that would not be enough for me, I love my family, and I enjoy my life. I hopefully will not be in a position of needing to defend anyone, but I am not going to willingly "take a bullet" for someones bad upbringing, or bad day. I would however like to see more support via social programs for these disturbed people... Pay for them now or pay for them later, right??

If a FA is sold to a citizen, the law, I believe should include a responsibility to take training, and perhaps even qualify yearly on the range for accuracy and handling of FA's. I also believe in using FA competition as a way to familarize oneself with FA handling. The competitive FA community are great teachers. There is NO mistakes with FA's.

Peace DPL

RTB

Colin,

And hell, you have to know that there were significant right wing Nazi, fascist support and sympathizer movements in this country, Amerika, and Mosley's Blackshirts in England prior to and during WW2. There are still not insignificant Aryan Brotherhoods, Nazi and nazi mimic groups, masked as Minutement and other militias throughout the United States, and which even get flushed out once inawhile having training camps and war games in this country.

Such organizations are, in fact, a right wing phenomena, supporting the creation of a state dominated "corporatist state". (Which I contend, the Stalinist USSR actually created full blown, though the reality of what it was got mixed up in all the left-right confusion of the time, such as can happen when ideologues and a particular socio-economic situation run wild.)

So, when it comes to a lock on right-wing Nazi style extremism, which has even raised its head in small Native circles in this country, which I consider the wierdest such phenomena, some Arab extremist groups certainly do not stand alone. It raised its head, in its modern manifestation, in fact, in the West, and is still a significant threat in my view, in the backdrop of current extremist right, neoconservative politics and economic practice which dominate most major Western countries currently.

Indeed, the drift towards a quasi kind of resurgent fascism, where the Arabs have become the New Jews, is one of the most outstanding social characteristics of this period of Corporate Capitalist development. And nowhere is that more true than in the proverbial land of the so-called free and the home of the so-called brave, upon its own particular kind of militaristic and brutal "world domination" quest. They are not even attempting to hide it.

You thinking is all muddied and fuked up, Colin. You have been drinking from the pro-US Neocon Kool-Aid glass for much too long. You are lost in the trees, looking for the forest again.

(And it is turning you into a Vichy style traitor against your own country's national interest in independance, national self-reliance and peace.)

Good to see you back, GWest.

Venezuala moving further away from reliance on US investment in its oil infrastructure.
A must read, in my view. Food for thought for this country. It is a process underway throughout Latin America.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/22716369-4F29-480D-BE04-BF38E293FD1E.htm

Though the prerequisite is a national leadership with some guts and concern about its own citizens, and the independant, self-reliant future of their nation, no doubt. A continuing lack from which this country continues to suffer, no doubt.

Coyote
Glad to be back.

Would have driven through your neighbourhood on my way back here save for highway notices of 2-4 hour construction delays - so we took the Yellowhead. A hot, fast trip nonetheless and the cool dampness of Victoria this morning was welcome.

Cheers.

Stuart wins the Most Ironic Post award for this thread =^)

DPL
The registry failed to do what they claimed it would do, they have had to fudge the numbers to make it look good. It also exceeded the 2 million a year that they promised it would cost and now are proud to say that it only cost 5 times that amount every year to run after spending over 1 billion on it. Yet they can not point to one single life saved due to it.

G west
I blame the society and government for teaching people not to protect themselves. The students there acted in a manner exactly as they were trained to and that training cost them their lives. People are taught that the Police will protect them, but not told that the police and government have no legal duty to do protect the general public, despite the best efforts of individual officers.

I glad that we agree that the feminist movement did take advantage of the incident.

As far as you comments about Nazism and Arab Nationalism, you are correct that many in the West including a certain ex-king were strong admirers of Hitler, but the Arabs did adopt the National Socialist ideals to their own culture and have been the strongest advocates for genocide against Jews.

RTB
You are bang on, and it should be noted that training is required to own a firearm and also to hunt. That is one of the few parts of the Firearms Act that has had a positive effect and coincidentally the only part of the Act where the firearm community were allowed to help draft the law.

Coyote
I don’t disagree with you on the historical facts of Nazi support, including agreeing with you how weird it is that First Nations would adopt some of the concepts and symbols of a party that would have exterminated them. But the Arab support is also part of that history and one that is still playing out.

However I will disagree that the Arabs are the “new Jews” How so, I can think of at least 8-9 Arab countries without even trying ruled by their own and even a Palestinian state, a.k.a Jordon. The Arabs are also pushing their cultural belief on Muslims around the world and enforcing a radical and regressive version of Islam that is fundamentally opposed to Western concepts of human rights and individual liberties.

As to accusing me of being Vichy, I suggest Herr Kettle that you review your many post on this site calling for the overthrow of the existing system.

Ah Chavez is just looking for a new heart throb now that Castro is getting set to leave the stage. He finds it far more interesting to play at global revolution than to send the days at home working on the mundane details of running an effective government. Funny how people complain about our government spending money on defense and say nothing about his shopping spree for 100,000’s of AK-47s and new fighter jets among other stuff. Considering just how bad their social services are there.

Colin:
I still don't think you've come to grips with the implications of widespread gun possession in urban areas. We don't need more guns in the hands of better-trained people, we need fewer damn guns period. I've already acknowledged the situation in rural areas is different and that the registry was ill-designed to respond to the nature of the real problems. The Americans provide signal evidence of what a disaster the ready availability of guns is for a civilized society practically every day. One can only hope the NRA idiots will be swept from power and influence with the beginning of the demise of neocon power in the US come the November election. I just wish they could be held personally responsible for the carnage that's grown out of their idiocy.

You're still flogging a dead horse, in my view. The increase in gun violence in Toronto, for example, during the past five years is clear evidence that this problem is accelerating, not diminishing. If feminists keep/kept the issue at the forefront of people's minds and are helping to convince the intelligent public that your solution is no solution at all, they'll be doing all of society a great favour.

As to the nonsense about the problem with passivity as a 'cause' of Lepine's outburst - surely you jest.

Hey Colin,

You said "RTB You are bang on, and it should be noted that training is required to own a firearm and also to hunt. That is one of the few parts of the Firearms Act that has had a positive effect and coincidentally the only part of the Act where the firearm community were allowed to help draft the law.

Yes, right on Colin, but whether the FA community helped or not, I must also say, "FA training" is not to the standards I would like to see yet. The written FAC, or PAL is too minimal and insignificant. I think an intensive course or program should be implimented as an integral part of the aquisition of FA's. People have to be comfortable with safety, handling, and shooting. Competitive shooting helps in this regard...IMO

Switzerland's citizens have to train with FA's or otherwise for I believe 2 years. So I do not think I am out of line when I suggest more FA training... Do you??

Yes, I believe in FA being released to qualified, responsible citizens, definitly, but reponsiblity and follow-up to this fundamental right cannot be overstated.

Hunters (CORE) program is good, I do not have any problem with that myself once advanced FA training has been implimented.

I have to say though, I see subsistence hunters or food hunters quite diferently than trophy hunters. Essentually, I do not believe trophy hunters should be allowed to get FA's at all... In fact, I will take it one step further and say, I also believe they should get some help with their anger managment problem...IMHO.

Peace,

RTB

Sorry for the sidebar all. Back to the issue at hand...Thanks

RTB

...I am NOT a supporter of the NRA or any other group that supports and covers up for the unethical and scientifically unsupported "crime" of trophy hunting...

Thought I would mention that...

RTB

RTB
I am not a fan of trophy hunting either, but I recently spent some time with a friend up North who described a goat hunt up in Bella Coola. A 3 day hike at altitude, managed to get one goat, which they had to pack on their backs down the mountain and then go back to get their gear, it certainly didn’t sound like an easy trip.

I also have no problem with increasing the training and recommend taking a “black Badge course” for pistols. I spend a one night a month shooting with an instructor and would like to take more course if I had the time and money.

Gwest
A while back they released a map showing legal gun ownership in Ontario, it was directly the reverse of the areas showing illegal firearms use. The GTA has one of the lowest rates of legal gun ownership. The problem is not with us but with the criminals, lawful gun owners aren’t the Liberal’s whipping boys any longer, go find yourself another scapegoat.

Regarding the Arab-Nazi connection, you think they would try to come up with their own salute.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5243/hezbollahnazis2qj5.jpg

Colin
And where are those statistics about gun violence in the USA? Surely I don't have to post them again, do I?

Until you can show me some evidence that US policy and NRA lies are anything but bankrupt and total garbage you haven't got a leg to stand on.

In fact, you'd rather attack feminists than come to grips with your own complicity my friend.

But, back to the subject at hand. Has anyone else noticed how Israel/Lebanon et al have swept news of the debacle in Iraq from the front pages. You'd think peace had broken out there it has been so quiet.

Not that things there are getting any better. I'm sure the whitehouse is more than happy that it is not the chief target for criticism for the moment. The Israelis are mobilizing international public opinion very astutely, for anyone with the wit to notice. And the US is quietly continuing its crimes against the Iraqi people.

Hey Colin, yes, I agree, the Black Badge coarse is good, and I respect your efforts to upgrade your skill levels, as I do mine...Cool. Yeah, costly indeed...

You said: "RTB
I am not a fan of trophy hunting either, but I recently spent some time with a friend up North who described a goat hunt up in Bella Coola. A 3 day hike at altitude, managed to get one goat, which they had to pack on their backs down the mountain and then go back to get their gear, it certainly didn’t sound like an easy trip".

Colin, does "not a fan" mean your against it or for it?? It really is either\or on this subject bro. See, it is not a question the "goat hunt" was tough, it is a question if the "goat hunt" is an ethical act.

You see Colin, in all honesty, if you are against it, then trophy hunters are NOT our brothers.

I believe how it works is, everyone wants ALL FA owners to be included in the FA community due to the struggle to maintain our FA ownership. That is why TH are easily let off the hook for their unethical practise, and allowed to hide amungst the rest of us... It is all about "numbers" for power and persuassion. It is all about keeping our guns...Crap.

Today is a tough world for the animals of the Earth Colin. They are being pushed and squeezed beyond that which they were ever intended to endure. Thus, we are in a extinction age unequeled to anything ever witnessed here on Earth.

To kill any animal for sport and trophy is an act so appauling to me, my "gun rights" pale in comparrison to these "crimes".

We need to exorsize trophy hunters like a bad cancer from all that we represent and believe in. It is bad Karma to protect these people, and trophy hunting is indeed unsupported on every level...IMHO

Peace Colin,

RTB

How did we get from the Iraq war to the federal gun control law? I don't own a gun, see little reason to own one, but it has little to do with the subject at hand

Sorry DPL... Lets get back to the subject at hand.

RTB

Problem is RTB, as I'm sure you've noticed, the Israel/Lebanon war has removed Iraq from the table. Things are still going from bad to worse there - and in Afghanistan too (another Canadian killed today) but you can bet Bush and Co are enjoying the fact that the watched pot is no longer theirs.

I can't help but believe that the American reluctance to push for an immediate cease fire isn't related to the fact that all the attention is being directed somewhere else right now.

Gwest
I am sure it’s part of the stew, but not the only part, the Middle East is the bane of simple solutions. As my Iranian friend says: Arabic is a poetic language which allows much license between what one says and means.

Colin
I guess you haven't read the New York Times this morning. Here, check it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/world/middleeast/03cnd-rumsfeld.html?hp&ex=1154664000&en=c38661723bdada83&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Hey G West, thanks for the site.

Rumsfeld said: "Mr. Rumsfeld said, “...Americans didn’t cross oceans and settle a wilderness and build history’s greatest democracy only to run away from a bunch of murderers and extremists who try to kill everyone that they cannot convert, and to tear down what they could never build,” he said.

Let me start with "...settled a wilderness..."?? The land was not wild, just the hearts of the "settlers". Settlers?? What the hell are they settling??? Native Americans were here first, living in harmony with the nature world...man oh man. Our history books have to change, and start telling the truth. If we want to learn Truth about the history of North America, we all should take Native studies, or just talk to a FN's elder. Their oral history is still with many of them.

See, demonizing these people in Iraq and others, in such a way as our "leaders" did the FN's, helps them justify their agenda'$$$.

G West said: "I can't help but believe that the American reluctance to push for an immediate cease fire isn't related to the fact that all the attention is being directed somewhere else right now".

Anywhooo..."G", I agree. What "perfect timing" eh. Perfect red-herring. Keep this war fired up, and and slip in the backdoor and steal the natural resourses...drip,drip,drip... Why not, who'll notice. Oh, and while we are there, in case there is any question on appearence, lets appear to be there to "settle" these savages and help set up a demoncratic government just as good as ours, our of the goodness of our hearts... What a joke.

Once again, "taming the savages" right. Only difference is, here in North America, the FN were deemed savages to justify taking their culture (and replace it with christianity) which weakened them, and then eventually take their land. In the Middle East they are deemed savages so they can take their culture in order to take their oil. IT IS ALL THE SAME STORY...SAD,PATHETIC, UNETHICAL, AND IMMORAL.

Peace my friend...

RTB

Back at you RTB, Peace!

Given how completely the Israel/Lebanon war has swept all mention of Iraq from the front pages (and mostly everywhere else incuding Tyee)this Pew study has some interesting and important insights into citizens and the news:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1069

People just don't trust the media anymore. CNN, for example has gone from a 42% believability rating in 1998 to a 28% today - and that's the best of the lot.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19197

The above is a link to an interesting review by Peter Galbraith that details both his own experiences and references books by others who have written about just how incompetently the US military (and their civilian enablers) has handled things in Iraq.

That this should have turned out to be a total debacle is not difficult to understand after reading this.

Haven't seen you around much lately Colin. I did find the reference I told you about which linked Iran and Rafsanjani to the Argentinian bombing.

Here's the relevant parts of it, edited to fit Tyee's requirements:

Not Our Man in Iran
By DANIELLE PLETKA (NYT) 747 words
Published: June 16, 2005

Washington - IF the polls and pundits can be believed, Ali Akhbar Hashemi Rafsanjani will move a step closer to regaining the presidency of Iran in tomorrow's national elections. And while the Iranian people will view the results with a mixture of resignation and boredom (turnout is unlikely to top 30 percent), Mr. Rafsanjani's rehabilitation will be welcomed in Paris, London, Berlin and, most unfortunately, Washington.

The Western powers are betting that Mr. Rafsanjani, a billionaire businessman who was Iran's president from 1989 to 1997, will either win an outright majority tomorrow or be elected in a two-candidate runoff on July 1. They feel that he -- --unlike the current, ''reformist'' president, Mohammed Khatami -- may cut a deal to give up Iran's nuclear weapons program. Such hopes are profoundly misplaced.

Ever since the trans-Atlantic meltdown over the American-led invasion of Iraq, European leaders have been eager to prove the value of so-called soft power: that supposedly magic mixture of diplomacy, economic incentives and cultural coercion. So for more than a year Britain, France and Germany have been negotiating with Iran, trying to get the mullahs to stop producing enriched uranium and dismantle their illicit nuclear program.

...Mr. Rafsanjani came back on the scene, offering the Europeans a lifeline.

''I believe the main solution is to gain the trust of Europe and America and to remove their concerns over the peaceful nature of our nuclear industry,'' he told reporters upon announcing his candidacy in May. European diplomats quickly let it be known that negotiations were on hold until their man was back in office.

Washington sipped the Rafsanjani Kool-Aid more warily, but so far it has offered no better way forward. President Bush was right to induct Iran into the axis of evil in 2002, but he has yet to come up with a coherent policy. There has been no real outreach to the opposition; no plan to contain Iran's regional designs. The Europeans' game is the only game; and if they like Mr. Rafsanjani, so do we, apparently.

In his first tour as president, Mr. Rafsanjani cemented a reputation as a corrupt and power-hungry wheeler-dealer. He crushed personal freedoms and presided over a sharp economic downturn. He ushered in a particularly aggressive phase of Iranian sponsorship of terrorism -- including alleged roles in the bombing of a Jewish community center in Buenos Aires in 1994 that killed more than 80, and in the assassinations of several Iranian exiles, including former Prime Minister Shahpur Bakhtiar in 1991.

A spokesman for the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, remarked that with a Rafsanjani victory, ''We will finally be able to have for ourselves the atomic bomb to fairly stand up to Israeli weapons.'' And we expect to catch a break from this man?

* * * *

Nothing is ever simple or straightforward in the middle east - except the American's naivete and the belief that they have all the answers.

And here, if you're still interested is a bit more on the Iranian connection to the bombing also from my NYTimes files:

FOREIGN DESK

Defector Ties Iran to 1994 Bombing of Argentine Jewish Center
By LARRY ROHTER (NYT) 598 words
Published: November 7, 2003

BRASÍLIA, Nov. 6 - Testifying in a public setting for the first time, a defector from Iran's intelligence agency has accused a group of senior government officials in Tehran of having ''led, orchestrated and executed'' a bomb attack on a Jewish community center in Argentina that killed 85 people and wounded 200 almost a decade ago.

''A special committee under the direction'' of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's spiritual leader, ''made the decision to initiate an attack in Buenos Aires,'' the Iranian agent, Abdolghassem Mesbahi, told Argentine lawyers during eight hours of court testimony on Wednesday. Mr. Mesbahi, who is living in exile in Germany, was testifying in English via a video link to the Argentine Embassy in Berlin, according to Argentine broadcast and Internet news accounts from people who were inside the courtroom.

The death toll from the explosion of a powerful car bomb on July 18, 1994, outside the Argentine Jewish Mutual Aid Association, known by the Spanish acronym AMIA, is the highest from an anti-Semitic incident anywhere since World War II. The attack came two years after 28 people died in a similar explosion outside the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires that Mr. Mesbahi has said previously was also organized by Iran.

On three earlier occasions -- 1998, 2000 and 2002 -- Mr. Mesbahi made detailed depositions about the AMIA case to Argentine investigators. Based on his testimony and the leads he supplied to intelligence agencies, an Argentine judge in March issued arrest warrants for four Iranian government officials, though he shied away from a prosecutor's recommendation that more than a dozen others also be indicted, including Ayatollah Khamenei.

The only official on the list who has been detained is Hadi Soleimanpour, who was the Iranian ambassador to Argentina at the time of the bombing. He was taken into custody in England in August but was released on bond, though he remains in England while officials there consider Argentina's request that he be extradited to stand trial in Buenos Aires.

Even that limited action, however, has led to a major diplomatic rift. Iran has repeatedly and angrily denied any role in the terrorist attack, accusing Argentina of acting in concert with ''Zionist interests'' and warning the government there it would ''adopt appropriate measures'' if Argentina did not revoke the indictments. Iran has also threatened Britain with retaliation.

Nonetheless, Mr. Mesbahi described the Iranian ambassador as having been ''very, very involved'' in ''supporting all aspects of the operation'' in 1994. Mr. Soleimanpour is widely reported -- and Argentine intelligence has confirmed -- to have been one leader of the students who in 1979 kidnapped and held hostage a group of American diplomats, and later entered the Iranian diplomatic service.

In his testimony, Mr. Mesbahi also reiterated an earlier accusation that the former Argentine president, Carlos Saúl Menem, sent a secret emissary to Teheran to negotiate a $10 million bribe in return for shifting the focus of the Argentine investigation away from Iran. He described the emissary as bearded and middle-aged, but when shown pictures of several aides to Mr. Menem who fit that description, he said he did not recognize them.

Mr. Mesbahi said that the Iranian government was eager to reduce the scrutiny of its actions and approved the payment. But he said he could not personally confirm that the bribe was actually delivered.

There's lots more if you're still curious!

Very interesting indeed G. Thanks for these sites...!! Lots of reading on Peter's site.

The media is biased and untrustworthy clearly. I am not surprised about these stats. I have friends in the media, and even they say they sway the public in any way "they" choose...

The public has to be discerning with any information they get from the media, maybe more now then ever before...eh G.

Peace G

RTB

Oh man G, I have to read you "new" post (above)... They raced in cyberspace and I lost.

RTB

Iraq isn't just burning, it's turning into a nightmare - for which evidence this story from the Observer:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1838222,00.html

Great job America!

And here's more, this time from a female blogger in Iraq, who writes, in part:

You can find more here:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#115472425289075262

Or, for still more, from Time Magazine, here:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1223363,00.html

I think it will be accessible there for a week or so.

I can seen this thread is mostly deserted, which, given what's going on in Lebanon is hardly surprising.

But, in case anyone stops by, there is an interesting story in the British Press today - written up in the Times of London by none other than William Rees-Mogg - that explores the claim (and the evidence) that British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw was fired... "at the request of the Bush Administration, particularly at the Pentagon."

Here's the link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2301799,00.html

"I can see" the above should read. With syntax like that I'm just as glad the thread is deserted, sorry.

Thanks so much for your imput on this thread G West, Alcibiades, anarcho, Fiat lux, DPL, Colin and all the others... Lots for all of us to consider in this war on plastics. Nothing about this product seems good. Obviously alternative products are essential to promote.

As always, information, such as recieved through this article by Paul Watson, will initiate change (we hope)...

Peace All,

RTB (Bear)

I can't believe I did that...Sorry, should be on other sight...DUH!!

RTB

I am not sure I can recover but I will try...;-)

Thanks so much for your imput on this thread G West, Alcibiades, anarcho, Fiat lux, DPL, Colin and all the others...

I leave you with this tune by Edwin Starr, which was written as a protest song in the 70's.

War, WAR, what is it good for, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...!!

Peace All

RTB (Bear)