I say Good Riddance. The environmental destruction that happens because of so-called "forestry" (in BC and elsewhere) is abhorrable and inexcusable.

I realize that the economics of shutting these places down is actually helping the corporations that run them, but I just can't help but feel happy when I hear of another pulp mill die.

The people that work at these places should retrain and find work in an industry that doesn't rape our environment and steal life from future generations.

People will one day have to come to the realization that it isn't business that "creates jobs and wealth", neither is it "investment", but the availability and control of resources and energy.

Monetary investment, today, is a fraud, because with deregulation, banks can create any amount of imaginary capital and hand it out, as the licence, for the control of resources, to a special interest sector for its own benefit and enrichment, while thousands are kicked into the gutter.

The name of the game is "overcapitalization", that permits the control and diversion of benefits of resource conversion. When millions of Dollars are invested in a single job, the result is an economy of legalized exploitation and destruction.

Today the word "overcapitalization" doesn't even appear in economics textbooks, whereas years ago they strongly warned against it.

The main trust of the Austrian and Chicago Schools' neoclassical theory is to "remove government from business and economic decisions". Control should be handed over to the "marketplace", resulting in the biggest fraud and crime wave in history.

The plan is to remove any democratic and public control from people's own destinies and survival, and hand it over to a self appointed ruling sector. Not much different from Stalinist forced collectivization, and the control of the economy in the hands of a similar, self appointed ruling class. The flag may be of different colour, but the people and intents are the same.

As this collectivization process continues, certain corporations are now almost in position to gain worldwide control of the survival of humanity, as in the case of food production and distribution.

If people permit the continuation of this trend and keep on electing politicians and governments in its service, in the forms of fraudulent "free trade" and "globalization" schemes, in reality corporate dictatorships, they can't blame anybody but themselves.

E.g. What Party's MP is representing the Squamish area and who voted him, or her, into Parliamnent? The good unionists, as in the case here in the Cariboo, with a useless seatwarmer!

What are his or her economic policies ? More, or less corporate control of their lives in the name of "wealth creation", or more public control of where the benefits go ?

As a lifelong private enterpriser, I don't want to see government in total control of the economy, but the purpose of democracy is equal rights. The job of government is to act as an overseer to ensure that no sector is permitted to control lives and divert benefits into their own pockets, otherwise known as theft, without any responsibilities to humanity in general.

Our present governments have long given up any intent to represent people.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Well, our primary importer of raw lumber is the U.S.. The Canadian dollar plays huge in this. If the Canadian dollar hits 90 cents American, there is no advantage whatsoever, for the U.S. to buy Canadian wood, except, for, say, shortages...

The high Canadian dollar is a huge lift for commodities that have a high value and secure markets, like current energy and metal commodities. Currently, the high Canadian dollar is responsible for Federal surplus's from these sectors, (and gives retail an import boost) but other sectors are suffering. Grain and agriculture commodities are down, and last but not least, so is lumber.
As long as the Canadian dollar is high, prices of structural and pulp wood are likely to remain low, subject to shortages. With North American interest rates rising, housing starts will cool, causing a further drop in timber values... on the outside, it doesn't look good for timber values in B.C., but there is one thing that could change it all. Drought. A repeat of 2002 forest fires. Otherwise, a high Canadian dollar is likely to stay, barring signifigant changes in Federal Governments.

The Squamish mill closure was no surprise and could be seen from a distance of 15 years or more. Squamish is an area that can be summed up with one word. OVERCUTTING. There are other areas that should be looked at more closely in terms of adopting mill models that do work, in terms of what is sustainable. Princeton is one such area in mind.

Outside of obviously needed future accurate mill startup forecasts at municipal, provincial and yes, even federal levels, economical drivers need to be looked at more seriously. Current currency valuations, along with a predicted U.S. recession caused by high interest rates and high trade deficits, are major factors that cannot be ignored in terms of where BC's economy is headed, along with commodity resources that are the most sensitive to currencies and high interest rates, i.e. housing startups.

We currently have a provincial government that is quick to take the credit for everything good that has happened to the province economically. Maybe they'll be quick to take the credit for not having a plan for the bad times that lay ahead for this province's forest industry.

The Woodfibre pulp mill has been an environmental blot on the landscape for decades -- an embarassment when people travel through the Sea to Sky country. Good riddance.

I guess, while I'm on the subject of provincial goverments... B.C.'s record in terms of regulating cutting to best preserve forests from forest fires, is horrendous.

Fiat Lux is right with everything he said concerning dimwitted greed raping resources worldwide. But geez, c'mon, can't we find a government that will at least force business big and small to rape responsibly here at home?
Forest preservation from firest fires in terms of what should be logged strategically, is, for the most part, non existent and as such, is nothing short of criminally negligent. European models make us look dumber than dumb in the sense that we don't even remotely have a governmental plan to come up with a plan to protect forests with strategic cutting to minimize forest fire damage in dry years. The 2002 fire season should have taught us something other than short term economics.

Although the mill was an environmental issue, I do sympathize with those workers who have lost their jobs. Unfortunately, we rely on these resources way too much, and we (as taxpayers) are not getting good value for them.

I don’t know how many of you went to work and family Christmas parties, and everyone (no matter what their political stripe is) said that the economy is “booming”. They say that everyone is working. But here is the funny part, ask them whether their standard of living has increased due to the “boom”.

Of course they will give you a puzzled look, and then repeat the economy is “booming”, and “everyone is working”. These are the same people did not notice that when Campbell was declaring BC a “have not” province, the Vancouver Canucks were selling out almost every night.

Now a “booming” economy should not necessarily be about increasing our standard of living, but man, I personally would like to see some preparation for the future.

I also think the government should also have to define what “the economy” is.

The Mountain Pine Beetle epidemic is a result of deliberate forestry mismanagement.

The spread of the pine beetle throughout the interior forests is due to two factors: too many large cut-blocks and fire supression. The effect of global warming is minimal.
Frost-kill of pine beetle even in the coldest of winter does not cause enough mortality to prevent its spread.

What has been created by the forest industry is cheap dimensional lumber.
Princeton is a prime example of deliberate mismanagement. In the 80's Weyerhauser was planning to close the mill because it was not profitable to mill lodgepole pine at the regular stumpage rates. Then in the late 80's the beetle epidemic started growing at the border of the Merritt/Princeton Forest Districts, due to HUGE cut-blocks(500 ha.+).

I was doing research (as a tech) on the Mountain Pine Beetle at that time with a group of Canada Forest Service Scientists, attempting a biological control experiment, while others were studying infestation behavior. A startling discovery was made. Beetles that emerged at the edge of a cut-block would be travel as far as 5 kms., while beetles emerging at the centre of a pine stand would only travel to the next suitable tree or trees, ie. next door! The result of large cut-blocks exposes the beetles to the influences of wind patterns, hence large distances of travel for the beetles and wider spread.

When the BC Forest Service was notified of our findings, we were informed that the pine beetle problem will be removed by cutting! As well, study areas were not respected and were unfortunately cut before studies were completed. Approximately the same time
an agreement on stumpage had been arranged and lo and behold, Princeton's mill was subsequently expanded.

And now, Manning Park has a pine beetle infestation problem, spread along the Similkimeen Valley and beginning upslope. Look for the province to allow logging to "rid of the beetle problem" in Manning Park, as well as other parks in BC.

So when The Brain posts that Princeton has a sustainable mill model that works, I was compelled to add a little history to highlight how the Princeton mill achieved their sustainable model.

The article uses the word boss in an odd manner. It would
read better if you left it out or substituted the word management.

To allanh- Your arrogance is only outdone by your ignorance. You glibly tell people that are about to lose their jobs, to simply "retrain" and get a job that doesn't harm the environment. Sort of like the stuffed suit on a downtown street telling others to "get a job, pull up your socks, blah blah blah." You conveniently hide behind the anonymity of this site as if your occupation doesn't somehow contribute to the planets' problems? Spare me. None of us do anything that doesn't impact our environment in one way or another. Get your head out of your ass and realise that any of us might be the next ones in the same predicament.

L Borsa
Clearwater

My friends work at that mill. So much for the "booming" economy in Squamish.
The most disturbing part is all of the brutal, blue-collar job losses in our town seem to be part of a truly sinister, much larger pattern.
Ever since vancouver was "awarded" the olympics the full-scale gentrification of Squamish has been evident.
Every greedy developer and his dog are busy slapping up overpriced yuppie condo's for the next generation of single occupancy suv commuters on the taxpayer funded sea-to-sky highway.
It makes me laugh to hear them talk about "green growth" knowing that the new Squamish is the most aggregious example of unsustainable urban sprawl one could possibly imagine. They plan to double our population in 10 years but THERE ARE NO F'N JOBS HERE!!!
Gordo and his cronies made sure of that. Oh wait a minute, amidst all of the pain in this community since gordo took over including bc rail, interfor and now woodfibre there was one good job opening in Squamish to offset the hundreds and hundreds that were lost - the highschool prinicpal job now taken over by gordo's EX-wife. It's seems that just ruining working peoples lives isn't good enough for campbell, he literally has to rub our noses in it with that sh!t-eating grin pasted on his face.
Don't despair though fellow Squamites theres going to be plenty of new-era part time, no-benefit jobs in the wal-mart and other strip mall stores coming to town!!
You get to serve your new overlords with a mandatory fake smile on your face while they treat you like a piece of s#!t.

Lots of anger coming from someone with such a happy sounding name, jesterjogger. Think of all the “crème de la crème” moving nearby. Those uncultured “blue collar” workers would just get in the way of the cultural infusion of Squamish.

With all the golfing and skiing, who has time for work anyways?

You live in “the best place on earth”, and don’t you forget it!

Sustainability? Ah, that is for future generations to deal with.

I apologize for the angry tone of my letters.
It's just very difficult to watch so many good people's lives thrown into disarray.
A friend of mine suggested that the changes we are seeing are, on a grand scale, a fundamental retooling and recalibration of our society to allign us with the new globalized capitalist structure.
I guess that's fine if you're on top the heap. God help the rest of us.

Darcy McGee, just where have you been for the past few years?

Your young friend in the Kettle valley is correct, but he isn't the first to see his job lost thanks to corporate greed under this government.

Remember all those loggers and sawmill workers who got the boot from Tolko Industries when its Barriere sawmill was burned in the 2003 hell-fires.

Well they all lost their jobs, not because of fire, but because the Liberal government only months before that fire removed all requirements for wood harvesters to process the wood locally.

In May 2003 the Forest Act was amended removing any local job protection in exchange for access to our wood.

In August the plant and the jobs of more than 200 people disappeared.

Tolko did quite well. It got 60 cents on the dollar in insurance money for the loss
and simply walked away leaving a financial nightmare for locals to deal with.

It didn't have to rebuild and the wood is now being shipped around the province.

Oh and all that new timber supply the forest industry now has with beetle kill; they pay 25 cents a cubic metre for it. It's like picking up a fresh four-litre jug of milk and getting paid to take it home.

I have been told by logger friends that there is much cheating going on in the woods with the so-called beatle wood harvest as contractors stretch heir cutblocks out into healthy, untouched stands.

We end up getting 25 centes per cubic metre rather than more than $100 for good wood. That is not gravy, that is out and out theft of public resources.

Who's policing the woods to stop that. Well, certainly not the Forests Ministry's staff who are now effectively a part of the great wood rip off as they stand by and allow the multinationals direct our resource decisions.

Jesterjogger, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. In my view if this government's actions haven't pissed you off to the point of anger then maybe you have something to apologise for.

BTW, does anyone have any new information on that Legislative trio of Liberal aides who were charged two years ago with various racketeering style charges following the first ever police raid on cabinet offices in the BC Legislature?

Has there been an official publication ban placed on those charges by AG Wally Oppel because former cabinet ministers who left office quickly after the raids are also under investigation.

Perhaps one of the premier's regular apologist here could update us.

allan- You didn't mention one other little gem re tolko and the non rebuilding of their mill. Our local MLA, aka the mouth that roars, managed to cut a deal with tolko that the province(you) would trade a tract of crown land in exchange for the tolko mill site in Barriere/Louis Creek. What we(you) got in return was a burned out mill site that as an added bonus is also designated as a hazardous site that we(you) will have to clean up before it can be developed to it's full potential. This is the same MLA that steadfastly says that the appurtancy rules ie the wood is milled in the area it is cut weren't changed. Maybe we can store snow there so that it can be shipped to Whistler for 2010(just in case) providing that the trains that run through the area don't derail as it's the CN main line.

To bike anarchist:

Thanks for correcting my comments on the area of Princeton. The Princeton area hasn't been creamed as badly as most other places, but they are catching up fast. Satellite photos clearly show which mills have sustainable future timber supplies, given their age and capacities. There is alot that we currently don't know, concerning how much timber is actually left in this province, and the news isn't good. It's hard at this point, to find an area that isn't being, or hasn't already been overcut. It's safe to say that the easy wood is pretty much gone in most areas, especially on the islands, lower mainlands, and mountainous regions.

What happened in Squamish was incredible, really. They took everything they possibly could, until there just wasn't anything left. Squamish is a true example of complete and total forest mismanagement. In the case of Squamish, there isn't a forest left to manage. The mill in Squamish was simply too large for too long. Everyone knew it. No one did a thing to stop it. There are only three words to describe it. Greed, pride and ignorance. And where was government? None existent for decades, regardless of who was in power. Everyone cries jobs, jobs, until they are gone permanently. The whole thing stinks.

Getting back to the Pine beetle... every prey has a predator. It blows my mind to think that we've had how many years to find the Pine beetles natural enemies and have done nothing about it. A solution similar to the irradication of the Japenese beetle in North American plains, is worth a good long look.

Even if we find a solution to the pine beetle, blight (the reddening of pine needles) is much more prevalent now, than it has ever been. It could be global warming, it could be ozone, maybe both... but what we know is that Pine trees are under environmental stress we have not seen before in the Northern hemisphere, especially in the last 5 to 10 years.

Humanity has a long list of self created problems. At the top is global warming, with the same old causes: Greed, pride and ignorance. The most downer thing of all, is... we're taking the same approach with global warming, as we did with Squamish! It's all very disturbing.

This and the other stories about how the rest of BC is losing better paying jobs is why I am a Vancouver Island Separatist. Separate from the lower mainland and its politicians which only worries about itself. While the rest of the province dies a slow death. Why should the 20% of the province worry about the other 80% .The lower mainland has the majority of the seats but most people only worry about the Fraser Valley through to Whistler. The rest of the province is just a bunch of whiners.

Regrettably, these fates being suffered by growing numbers of forest dependant communities and other resource towns are the result of the old "export dependancy" schill game into which the ruling class actively, and the population passively have been drawn, and never questioned the rationale of. And until we learn to husband our own resources and use them "primarily" for our own benefit and purposes, and other folks in other countries do the same, if we can ever get the Great Empires off their backs, as part of a "self-sufficiency" focussed economy in place of that Corporatist "export dependent" model, there are going to be many more wood and steel mill closures and jobs shipped to The Empire and elsewhere.

Canadians, by and large bought the global capitalism game, and let "them" call the shots, call the resources their precious "private property" and sell them off to whomever they pleased. Well now, y'all made your choice, whethe it was actively or passively, and "the game" is running its natural course. The logic of capitalism, which is that the Biggest and Meanest Boys eventually wind up with all the marbles, save for the chipped and ugly ones they don't want, is fast coming to its logical end-game, au natural conclusion.

Suck it up and quit yo whinin' or kick some capitalist ass. There's a price to be paid either way, for sovereignty and freedom OR just being an old trod upon piece of shitt. And if you don't know what that means yet, like those there millworkers and loggers in Squamish, at Midway and more places than I'd care to spend time mentioning, you will.

Old Fait Lux gets it mostly right, in my view. He generally does. :-) (Even if at one time, he and I might have been shooting at each other. :-) Which means I don't think he gets it ALL right. But then, neither did I. :-)

It's friend is global warming, while its main enemy, which also includes cold, is fire. The latter which we suppress. (Which leads to giving the predominately foreign owners of our forest industry an excuse to cut ever greater volumes of wood-, until both it and the beetle are all gone.)

Ain't capitalism grand? They's so phuckin' smart. Don't ya just admire them all so damned much. It's beautiful how simply and elegantly it works.

Makes an ordinary man and women feel just so damned stupid, don't it? We need 'em. They feed us and clothe us, and looks after us just so selflessly.

LOL 8-D

Someone further up queried the meaning of the concept of "economy". In my view, the economy as it is currently structured is an abstract set of relations designed to protect buying power and control for a diffuse oligarchy, that is, for owners of shares and collectors of interest and dividends. The details are the myriad of rules and procedures that ensure that this protection will be the de facto progression of social interaction and that intimidate or confuse the general population into accepting the arrangement with a minimum of fuss except for the usual "bitching over beers" and kitchen table angst that defines a lot of lower middle class existence.

I doubt that there is any specific conspiracy of backroom manipulators that controls the show--there are too many beneficiaries of the current structure to allow any sort of absolute control by some cabal (although some small groups, e.g. the US Federal cabinet, etc., do have extraordinary influence). But once individuals reach a sort of critical mass of wealth, the benefits of supporting the status quo and its push further to the political right generates the kind of self-interested promotion of conservative policies whose enaction continues to push so many hard-working people in our society toward the bottom of the social pyramid.

A huge amount of the political controversy and disagreement that gets played out in our relatively non-representative democracy seems to be little more than a wave-like fluctuation on the surface of things, while the overall location of the water (or the wealth) remains protected in the basin of privilege and power.

A slightly different language than I would use, 8-o but good one, Birch. (Hmmmm. Almost made the r a t. Which would have not been good.)

What's happened to the Squamish mill may have echoes in the predicament of the Legislative trio of ministerial aides, which Allan asked about. The trial of Basi & Virk, last I heard, is scheduled for February 2006 in B.C. Supreme Court, Vancouver.

Here's a quote from Gangster Capitalismby Michael Woodiwiss: "Every nation has criminals but very few nations can create conditions that facilitate or even foster serious criminality internationally. Unfortunately, the United States admittedly supported by most of the developed world, became one of these few and has changed the nature and extent of organized crime in both legal and criminal markets throughout our new 'borderless' world ...

"An international system has emerged of legal agreements that guarantee the global rights of capital, often at the expense of human rights ... A new breed of often murderous kleptocrats and sophisticated international business criminals emerged to exploit these regulatory voids ..."

Wildiwiss describes how legislation, such as the drug laws, create the lucrative black market for organized crime. British Columbia's marijuana trade alone is estimated at about 20% of provincial revenues, ranking alongside forest products. This, and other markets, are knowingly created by legislation, he says.

Another book describes exactly how such power brokers work within the corridors of government. Stevie Cameron's "The Last Amigo" follows the homely little Karlheinz Schrieber as he befriends and uses some of Canada's top politicians: Brian Mulroney, Frank Moores, Elmer MacKay and others, in the Airbus affair. I still think that Adscam isn't as big a deal as the trial of the Basi Boys will be. That is, if it ever happens. The protective silence around it has been alarming in itself.

Around the time of the historic R.C.M.P. raids on the B.C. Legislature (exactly 2 years ago today), the United Nations warned the world that if organized crime is once allowed to enter into the corridors of any government, there's no going back: the sovereignty of that nation is lost. This is why there's a critical urgency to either prove Basi, Virk & Basi innocent ... or to find out exactly what lies behind the charges laid against them.

Textbook definition of the economy:
-----------------------------------------------
"The science of the management and distribution of scarce resources".
-----------------------------------------------
This usually appears on the first pages of Economics 1-01 textbooks, then any connection to any science disappears and the rest of the 4 -5 years are spent on learning how to transfer economic ruling powers to special interest ruling classes, basd on ideological claptrap and fraudulent quotations from Adam Smith, or Marx.

Coyote: I love it when somebody can prove me wrong, as it sharpens my understanding of true facts.

The accent being on the word "PROVE".
Opinions, especially when they're based on ideologies, religions and other faith based, especially economic theories, don't count.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

jesterjogger: that is not a sh!!-eating grin on Gordo's face, it is a
'sh!!-eating dog' grin. This is an important distinction. You have struck a blow at his orthodontist's pride. Show some respect for the working man.

As for everyone else, remember: this is Gordo's golden generation; our future economy will consist of everyone cutting each other's hair and printing money... hope everyone gets a good wheelbarrow.

BC Mary: I strongly suspect that the whole affair will be deemed not to be in the public interest to prosecute...

R. Smiley

It’s the economy, stupid!

Birch and Fiat lux,

The reason why I brought up the issue of defining "economy" is that so much hinges on our perception of it. At your New Year’s parties, start talking about the economy with people - NDP, BC Liberal, or Green supporters. It doesn’t really matter…. some will say, “I dislike a lot of what the BC Liberals are doing, but they sure do have this economy booming”.

But then follow it up by asking, “What do you meaning by economy? And what do you mean by booming?”

Oh yeah, and be nice or else you won’t get invited to other parties!

They will then start to mumble something about jobs and surplus and the conversation will change to the Canucks.

But really, our ignorance of the economy is what allows those who stand to profit from it the most to retain power (and build oligarchies). And is that not their right in a democracy?

Ripponfalls writes:

In your opinion, isn't it true that it's in the public interest to prosecute? I sincerely hope that you are wrong. I think it would be an admission of judicial, electoral, and administrative horrors if Basi, Virk, and Basi were simply left twisting in the wind ... and British Columbia with them.

That's what I think. You?

I've never heard of any extra right oligarchies may, or should have in a true democracy, but it is an idea that has been picked up by both communists and capitalists. Brothers under the skin when you wash off the covering makeup.

For all practical purposes all economic theories in history have been designed, either to support the creation of oligarchies, or fell into the trap of supporting them, destroying democracies in their service.

All communist states called themselves "democratic republics", while enslaving and murdering millions, and our present capitalist, neoclassical market economy theory, is the biggest fraud, also used to destroy democracy, humanity and the environment in the service of oligarchies. The NAFTA is the best example.

Yet, the propaganda claims that we're living in " wealth creating" democracies, but it doesn't say whothe recipients and who the victims are?
The "economy is booming", the phoney GDP grows, the benefits are pocketed by the rulers, while the victims are starving in the streets, or foodbank lines.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

...22 mills have closed, and CEP has transformed some of them in worker-co-operative ventures....well that is good news...finally...some good news ....that workers & communities shafted by Capital ...are begining to see the light & that empowerments comes with 'economic democracy'....which is different that neo-liberal Corporate Capitalism or State -owned Crown corporations. There is much more to do however....namely to -retake the State...captured as it is by Capital and transform it...and the political/economic architecture of the province/country...by insisting for instance that preferential treatment for issuance of timber tenure, oil & gas licences, mineral licences, supply contracts, will be given not to corporations, but to co-operatives - owned by workers, consumers and municipalities, etc. etc... That is not to say that co-operatives are the only or best tactic in the fight against the excesses of Captial...and the Capitalistic State..but a taste of economic democracy may create an urge amongst citizens to do away with many of the legal underpinnings of Capital and low level democracy ...and create different sets of legal relations to promote a rebirth of democracy- economic & political.

On Jan 11/2005 I posted this --and it is still applicable...the Tyee wants it edited down to 4100 characters long...mmm.

Ya, the Crown owns it all...and grants most of the coal, timber, minerals...to major mulitnational Corporations whose head offices really don't give two cents worth for local workers, families, communities. (Port Alberni, Barriiere Prince Rupert, Kimberly, Nelson, etc)..except for the bottom financial line and value to shareholders - especially majority shareholders...this is not new "news"...this is the colonial way it has always been in BC. ...and the poor municipality ...and the people that reside within them, like many across rural BC, has little political power, minimal access to capital and credit, and little opportunity to 'buy' , lease get a licence for forest land. Strange set-up we have in BC, eh! Few excepting this author, ponder a different vision of democracy, with perhaps a little more equitable distribution of political power and wealth in this province. Certainly the mainstream political parties don't. - hell they all are a -clamouring to get elected, to take over the Premier's office, so they too can run this province in basically a "dictatorial" fashion as elitist Executive branch power allows. So ask yourself some questions, eh? Is it equitable and democratic that the Crown, captured as it is by the corporate capitalism, should own it all? Is it right that the Executive Branch, namely the Premier's office, should have all the power to say what goes down, and sold in BC? Is it equitable that provinces have all the power, and municipalities, being creatures of the province constitutional, have zip power, except what tiny amount is granted to them by the province? Is it equitable that First Nations are cut out ..as they watch their traditional lands being ravaged, while others take the jobs and benefits, and they reap the social, environmental, economic costs? Why could there not be an internal constitution within BC, that allocates rights and responsibiliteis between the capital region and other regions/cities, and First Nations? Is it equitable that all resource rents, taxes, fees, etc. flow directly to a central provincial treasury...with minimal flow-back to the region from whene the resouce was extracted? First Nations people say they need land for their development, their self-governance, ...well, what about the rest of us...don't we too? Imagine if there was an internal provincial constituition, not written by the Crown or its lackey bureaucrats & lawyers, but by a real constitutional constituent assembly -elected - wit h the sole purpose to write an internal constitution fo BC, that provided for a more equitable distribution of political power and wealth

Too bad you weren't elected as BCNDP Leader, Peter, but if you had been, would still be able, or permitted to say these things?

I sometimes wonder who really pulls the strings from behind the scenes?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Rotlin selected these quotes from the article:

"...according to company boss spokesperson Gary Ley."

and

Quote:
"...part of a deal reached secretly earlier this year between company bosses..."

rotlin the asked:

"The article uses the word boss in an odd manner. It would
read better if you left it out or substituted the word management."

The words "boss," I think, is more than applicable and should be used more often when describing corporate positions, since they are in fact non-elected positions of power and wealth, that often make decisions that affect many people, the economy and our environment with little accountability to either of them or anyone else.

That is the very basic definition of a boss.

I notice the big business media is always mis-labeling elected union representatives as "union bosses" to try to slander them or cast them in bad light. At the same time, it shies away from referring to corporate executives and capitalists as "bosses," even though that is exactly what they are.

The fact is, union reps are democratically elected and most important decisions are made my members at regular meetings and conventions where each person has one vote.

Corporations, like the ones who control the pulp and paper industry, don't work this way. Everything is totally based on top-down rule by people who are not accountable to anyone who they are ruling over.

Kudos to the writer of this article for using the term "boos" properly and applying it to the right people and positions.

A real breath of fresh air and good journalism.

allanh said:

"I say Good Riddance. The environmental destruction that happens because of so-called "forestry" (in BC and elsewhere) is abhorrable and inexcusable."

I notice some regulars here objected to my harsh but factual attack on the so-called "green" Party here a while ago because I wasn't supposedly being PC enough and being lovey-dovey trying to "work together" between "progressive" people.

This type of thinking isn't progressive and I want nothing to do with it. Not only is it anti-democratic and anti-working people, it's also anti-environment. Does this creep actually think closing down pulp mills and destroying the communities around them will lead to better environmental practices?

"I realize that the economics of shutting these places down is actually helping the corporations that run them, but I just can't help but feel happy when I hear of another pulp mill die."

Helping corporations is what these types really care about, so I guess it's all fine with them. that makes you more abhorrable than the forest practices.

"The people that work at these places should retrain and find work in an industry that doesn't rape our environment and steal life from future generations."

If creeps like this actually cared about justice and economy, they would know that it's not as simple as just getting re-trained, especially when you have lost your income and can't afford a long-term education, or the economy isn't as booming as some make out and there's no jobs no go into after you finish your long education, or you're over 40 and no one will want to hired you after you get through your long education because there are so many younger people with the same training who can take the work.

I guess this guy has never heard of efforts to improve the pulp industry's environment practices, like the AOX emissions laws or the recycling programs that happened in the 1990s with the NDP government.

Or maybe he just doesn't need to use any paper for anything, like writing or even wiping his butt, because he sure is spewing a lot of brown stuff on here.

They were talking this morning about a wind turbine plant being built in Squamish, with about 300 jobs. I hope it is true, but I will only believe when they start shipping turbines.

Tyee Fan said: Or maybe he just doesn't need to use any paper for anything, like writing or even wiping his butt...

Woodfibre exports pulp. None is used domestically.

allanh said: The people that work at these places should retrain and find work in an industry...

Some of those people were born at Woodfibre and have never held any other job. Because of the union and seniority, there are long term employees who know nothing except how to push buttons in a control booth for which they get upwards of $70 thousand a year. When they are precipitated into the real world of work, they are in for a shock. There is no training that will get them +$70 grand jobs.

I am a former employee (17 yrs)and I know these people.

Actually the powers that be have pretty much slated Squamish for high-end residential development. There might be a token business here or there (real jobs i mean) but b%!b&s have been paid and h**k&rs sc%&w&d so theres no going back.
Just follow the money-5000 new residential units at $400,000 (both conservative estimates) equals 2 BILLION dollars for greedy developers.
As for a bunch of windmills messing up yuppie/esl slaver/republican vacation home views of beatiful Howe Sound and the Chief I think theres a great chance. Oh yeah and the NDP is going to win the federal election in our riding too.

In the meantime, tax dollars that might be used for worker retraining, feeding and housing the growing army of homeless or protecting innocent children, are being spent to ensure buyers have quick access to the new residential developments in Squamish.

But don't worry. Gordon Campbell has a bag full of bells and whistles to hand out. Get in line and maybe you too will get a good viewing seat at Whistler on 2010.

This is the type of economics Working Man gets all excited about.

Public costs and private profit. Oh, to be a capitalist piggy in British Columbia just before all these bills arrive.

Perhaps now some of you in Vancouver will rethink how great it was to participate in that little game of 'how much do you really want the Olympics'?

Here's what you get for that play at democracy. A $billion highway upgrade (hey it ain't finished yet), that eases access to high end residential developments all along the route to Whistler.

Liberal friendly developers will just get rich.

An athletes' village in False Creek, but none of the social housing you were promised, and a cadillac-style commuter station from the airport to downtown Vancouver that will do absolutely nothing to reduce gridlock in the primarily east-west flow of people.

I think their should be a special dumb tax for Vancouverites that will help offset some of the costs to the rest of us.

I do urge Vancouverites to pay very close attention to all financial stories coming out of the 2006 Winter Olympics in Turin Italy in a month or so.

Ignore that blather from the usual Olympic announcers because their employers are guaranteed gold at the end regardless.

Instead, look for those little news snippets or briefs that slip through the self-censorship of MSM's adoring army of promoters.

Turn to the Indy media or get snowed folks.

You might notice that every time you and I are hit for taxes to build yet another public momument developers and other feeders at the trough get fatter and we get poorer.

Now why is that?

typical lefty bullshite situtation. the unions spend millions to defeat the liberals at election time and then expect them to ride in on a white horse to bail them out at crisis time. what a bloody joke! you people need to give your self-righteous little heads a shake.

Yes elliot what an outrage!!
Its infinetly more ethical when multinational corporations bankroll right-wing, neo-con governments who then allow them to rape our non-renewable resources with little or no regard to worker's rights and environmental constraints. (can someone explain to me the difference between dick "schlumpy millionaire chickenhawk" cheney hashing out the new US energy policy with energy co. ceo's and our imperious leader doing likewise with forestry co. ceo's re forest policy????)
Also re woodfibre someone said they spent a great deal of money to upgrade from an environmental standpoint in the 90's. Is this true?

After reading the commentaries:

We so love to bash the systems we have in place don't we? These systems of government and economics never did a thing for us... right? We shouldn't have to pay taxes. Roads, hospitals, schools, universities, police, markets, it should all be "pay as you go", right? We bash the rich (until we become rich ourselves), we bash the poor (until we become poor), minimize, ridicule, reduce it all down to soundbites and one liners, cause that's all we can handle... right?

Last I looked, we have a democracy that fails us, because only 12.5 % of the this province voted in the last provincial election. Interesting demographics of those who did vote. You know, people with "vested interests". Communities banding together to protect local interests... organizing... educating... some tightwad might have to pay for part of it. Who wants that?

We have a capitalist economy that, last I checked, most home and car owners didn't complain about, lest they think home, car and personal loans aren't important to their lives. And I'm sure that most people who play the markets don't care much about who pays on the other end of all that "profit sharing" cause their all in it for the money. Right? And I'm sure none of us here have mutuals or RRSP's.
Last I checked, money wasn't the problem. Some people really "love" money though, don't they? It's interesting to watch what kind of cream (or should I say "creamer") rises to the top.
There was once a guy who had a greed on for cake. Next thing you know, his teeth started to rot, he became obese, developed diabetes, started to smell bad and timed out young. It reminds me of the guy who's got millions and his wife's all pilled out and his kids are choking on silver spoons and he's dining on cake, thankful with how "rich" he is. Isn't justice "sweet"?

As for the rest of us... its no different. There's an old rule of thumb that goes like this. "Anyone can point out the various different colors and flavors gushing from a wound. Unfortunately, its not just anyone that can heal it." Maybe its time to quit pissing around with negative soundbites and use some uncommon sense that told us long ago, "its organization and education that got us here, make no mistake."
Maybe its time we participated in the systems we so love to bash, instead of minimizing and running down the importance of these same systems, as well as those who participate in our absence.
Squamish. Might not be a bad place to live, now that that smelly pulp mill is gone. Not sure why anyone would live there to suffer all those windy roads... but I guess the Olympics is coming to "straighten it all out". For sale cheap signs on these yet to be built condo's after the Olympics? Canadians will never have another recession, you know. Our friends south of us sure do like their cake...

Great Love in you Lefites are having here.

But why don't you win elections? Could it be anything you have done? Ask yourelves that question or are you able?

I doubt it and in 2009, you will still not win.

Oh well.

Fiat Lux, Coyote (and he's a trickster, to be sure):

I personally enjoy articulated truth when I read it, because it sometimes just doesn't happen.

You both put everything in its place. Both posts are definitely worth reading twice, if anyone is still left to read this.

Before 1985, Woodfibre put out air and water pollution at a rate unbelievable by today's standards. In the mid-80s, tems of millions were spent upgrading Woodfibre. It was torn down and rebuilt to the leading edge technology of the day and it's had upgrades since then.

There's no doubt that the highway needs work. What I doubt is whether any work can overcome gravity. Those rock cliffs are not stable and never will be. And does anybody remember M Creek?

Housing prices in Squamish? I've seen a house that had an offer of $115,00 rejected become worth $39,000 the very next day when the river flooded through its basement.

Finally - Olymics at Whistler. That could work... *if* there's snow that year.

A happy and fruitful New Year to you all.

(Wellll, most of you.) The few left out are meant to wither and perish. :-) (Never said I wasn't a vindictive critter.)

I'll be in and out of here a tad irregularly over the coming short period. (I'm working on carving and shaping a hunting longbow, out of a piece of birch tree. My first effort at it. It's going to be a near replica of a Neolithic period, European hunting bow, 8000 years old, found intact in Holland. Which interestingly is almost a duplicate of the type of bow used by the Eastern Woodland Indians of North America around the time of contact.)

I'll be about though, trying to help y'all keep a handle on the braunshirts. 8-D

Enjoy the festivities!

Jester
They will be building the turbines there for elsewhere, however I think there is a proposal for some on the spit.

I sure hope that its true.
I later found out the manufacturing facility is proposed for the old rail yard and that test mills would go up on the nexen-lands.
Believe me theres no better place. Steady, hard wind out there most of the year-thats why wind-surfers(and the even more crazy kite-surfers)come here from all over. It would be insane not to take advantage of that location just so a bunch of gordo's developer buddies could line their pockets building condo's for wealthy foreigners and greedy real-estate speculators.
The nexen lands should be turned into a deep sea-port/industrial area/wind-mill farm.

Working(@Tyee)Man and Elliot certainly go a long way toward proving they can be smaller than most in their view of the world.

Best of luck next year guys and, just for once, please pay your taxes without whining.

Without those tax dollars for their political friends to look after things what would so much of the private sector get by on?

Oh and equally good wishes for the verbose Brain who tends to drain most issues of any value while tossing barbs at anyone who doesn't bow to his overinflated opinions.

My advice to this long winded rambling one would be, rather than accusing everyone who disagrees with him of being an idiot, perhaps the Brain could actually write something that doesn't jolt off in 14 different directions without ever connecting.

the federal liberals under chretien gave 172 million to the suharta government in indonesia to build a state of the art pulp mill, this pulp mill built by Commonwealth Construction of Calgary has very likely contributed to the demise of the Industry in this Province.

Good old liberals making sure we get the best bang for our buck as tax payers, when they are finished with us we will be a cottage industry catoring to the wealthy retirees!

Happy New Year to almost all who write for The Tyee and may we awaken on 24 January 2006 to a no-name socialist government.

allan; i rarely respond to you b/c you're intellectually inferior to most around here, but since you mentioned taxes; you should probably know that people like me pay more in taxes than you earn so you should probably remain mute about things you know nothing about. hope you grow up soon and realize that indeed there is no free lunch.
here's to knowing that the lefties will form no governments outside of western and northern europe in the foreseeable future. that alone is worth a happy new year.

commentor: Elliotposted: 1 Day Agotypical lefty bullshite situtation. the unions spend millions to defeat the liberals at election time and then expect them to ride in on a white horse to bail them out at crisis time."

This proves once again what lying stupid morons right-wingers are. The fact is unions don't expect bailouts from anyone. Rather, they get off their butts every day and earn their living by doing useful productive work.

So its no surprise they do whatever they can to get rid of corrupt anti-democratic corporate puppet parties like the BC Liberals. The only way these creeps get elected is by media-supported lies and a whole lot of over-spending on campaigns.

The fact is the NDP took really lousy economic conditions and made a good economy out of them. The Liberals are doing the opposite: coasting off record low interest rates and record high commodity and energy prices, while still screwing up our key services and making people poorer and less free.

"here's to knowing that the lefties will form no governments outside of western and northern europe in the foreseeable future. that alone is worth a happy new year."

It certainly is a Happy New year for western and northern Europeans, since, thanks in part to the leftie governments there, they have a higher standard of living and greater freedom these days than we do--thanks to not getting more leftist government elected here.

For us, well all I can say is for now, is hold up and carry on. try to enjoy the New Year and hope for the best--like an end to all things corporate and all of the morons who mouthpiece for them.

the following is a classic example of revisionist history. it was provided by the blathering tyee fan: 'The fact is the NDP took really lousy economic conditions and made a good economy out of them.'
thank you fan, i am laughing my ass off!
p.s. are you bill schreck or david tieleman?

hey elliot he is right, if you were actually living here with both eyes open and soother removed from mouth you would know this! If times were so bad with the ndp in power then why did so many albertans moves here for work?

Hell klein was even giving his welfare recipients one way bus tickets to collect welfare here so he could try to save a little money for his corporate friends! How else do you think he could afford a fishing lodge south of Prince Rupert!

It is my suspicion the cayman accounts of all these right wing politicians must be overflowing with all the sweetheart deals they have given the americans, like the tarsand deals made behind closed doors, the alberta tax payers are getting robbed!

Do your homework on how much the americans are paying in royalties etc compared to other countries and you will be shocked, while your at it look into the major project deals, these oil companies are getting a free ride and the tax payers are getting hosed! The amount of greenhouse gases they are pumping out is absolutely incredible.

How many children around edmonton are getting asthma and other respiratory diseases, they have a big problem in McMurrey as well!

Some people haven't heard of the "Asian Flu", the resulting global recession, how and why it started, and how much damage it has done to BC.

Also, the multinational blackmail to have Campbell elected, rewarded by him with a $2.5 billion yearly taxcut, to be used to screw more out of the people of BC.

The directorships are waiting with open arms, the way they gave Mulroney about 10 times his salary as when he was PM.

This present, so called "economic boom", is nothing more than the artifical inflation of the money supply by the banks, to be paid for by future generations in the form of debts, resource depletion and loss of democratic control of their lives.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Jester

I suspect that the site will be a strong possibility for wind turbines, steady wind and close to the grid. The environmental review will hang on birds and socioeconomic factors.

Unlikely they will expand the port much. Most of the cargo for their comes from the Interior and already in the works are Prince Rupert Coal and container docks, along with a possible dock/upgrade in Stewart, plus the Stewart-Ominecia resource road will direct the cargo to these ports.

Squamish I think mainly loads paper and lumber if I remember correctly?

"hey elliot he is right, if you were actually living here with both eyes open and soother removed from mouth you would know this! If times were so bad with the ndp in power then why did so many albertans moves here for work?"
where the hell do you idiots get your information from? big money was leaving b.c. in hordes when the socialist fools were in power here, and alberta was benefitting directly. yes, they were sending us their lazy welfare cases, and the ndp was stupid enough to accept them. as for your accusation of my lack of knowledge of b.c. politics; i've been following closely since, as a 15 year old i campaigned in the 1972 election. unfortunately i was young, idealistic, naive and easily influenced so i worked for the ndp at the time, but please promise not to tell anyone.

goosestepper Elliot spikes up again!

>"where the hell do you idiots get your information from?"

How about Statistics Canada, Conference Board, CCPA, BC Stats, even the big banks (hardly left-wing organizations). Lots of wrtiers have qouted these sources, with the links, to report these facts. The only place they seem to get published is independent writer-focussed media like the Tyee.

We know where you get your information from. The lying Liberal-owned Global Canwest empire and its huge censorship monopolies. The same ones who lied about the "fudget budget," made up and "tax revolt," insist that Canada is a "high tax" country, and kep lying about the BC economy during the NDP time, despite record jobs creation, rising wage rates, best social services and environmental and human rights laws in the country.

Now that wages are falling, population growth has slowed, consumer debt is shooting upward and poverty is everywhere, you twerps call it a boom. SHows just how economically incompetent corporate BC and its lying little apologists are.

>"big money was leaving b.c. in hordes when the socialist fools were in power here, and alberta was benefitting directly"

really? then why does both Statscan and CCPA report that capital investment is lower now compared to our gdp than it was during the NDP days? Of course, you'll just ignore this fact and keep on repeating big business lies as usual.

The fact is, the big banks report that only in the last year has consumer spending, the biggest form of investment that drives the economy, is only now gotten back to the levels it was at in the 1990s when the NDP was in government. Still people have less savings, more debt and less earning power than they did then. Small business bankrupcies are higher now than then, and poverty is also higher.

But what do you care? The rich parasite elite is getting fatter like it is in Alberta. That's all that matters. It's all you understand.

>"thank you fan, i am laughing my ass off"

Since you obviously no longer have a brain, it's OK to laugh your ass off.

>"are you bill schreck or david tieleman?"

Neither. Why do I have to be somebody high profile like that in order to do some homework and learn the truth. Just shows again what stupid boss/rich-boy elitist worshippers people like you are.

>"i worked for the ndp at the time, but please promise not to tell anyone"

too bad you worked for the NDP. A lying hateful anti-democratic corporate worshipper like you could have done the NDP much more good by working for the other side.

Don't worry. You have yourself a good New Year's day living in your brainwashed corporate-media soaked little world. Keep hating all us rotten socialists and free-thinkers who try to do some good in our communities and bring more democracy and prosperity to our economy by giving working people a bigger say and a better share.

Who knows. If you brown-nose and apologize enough for the BC Liars and their corporate bosses, they just might leave you a sack with a million dollars in it when you get too old to work. That's what's called "trickle-down" economics--they're excuse for continuing to dominate the modern economy.

Tyee fan,

Just dropped in to see what muck the Braunshirts were playing in, whilst most of us are enjoying the day with family and friends. (The usual "pathetics" are hanging around with their drawers down, messing themselves about the site. Nothing too much to be concerned about. 8-D

In any case, you're knocking them about and tidying the place up with them well enough I see. With the ever able assistance of Fait Lux. :-) Just sweep them into the corner like old trash on the shop floor bro. We'll bag 'em up and haul them off to the dump in a day or two.

Maybe though, you could spread a little lime over them, just to keep the smell down. They do leave quite an odour about the old place.

Tyee Propagandist; all you've done is prove that statistics are for liars. anyone that thinks the ndp was good for this province in the 90's is a fool and a moron. or they're in denial. actually, with stereotypical demonizing like that you might even be a fascist. take your pick dude.

so elliot worked for the NDP in 91 that would make you what 30 something? Ok so you are young and don't really know what has happened in this province over the years. Unlike you I used to be a Socred until bill bennett showed his true colours.

So instead of name calling like ronnie with no better argument then saying a person is in denial if they think the NDP was good for the province why don't you present your arguments so we can dispute them or not! Could it be that you have none?

slight misunderstanding there ursus. i campaigned for the ndp as a 15 year old in '72. i voted for the ndp in '91 b/c it was time to turf the tired old socreds. i had hope for harcourt et al but watched in horror as they turned my wonderful province (born and raised in vancouver) into a big bloody mess. i very much doubt if i'll ever vote for them again. i'm happy enough with the liberals but not entirely. i will campaign for them if the next election looks like it will be close, only b/c i fear and abhor the ndp so much. yes they've talked about moderating somewhat, but as far as i can tell they still have a long way to go before they are a viable choice for power.

this is happening in all industries and will move into the white collar sector soon enough, people making 8 bucks an hour can't afford nice cars or houses that cost an average of 433,000.00 can they!

gordo's so called booming economy is based on a very fragile housing boom, what happens when the middle class can no longer afford to retire here, there are two places (waterfront) not far from me that haven't sold since summer.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060101/chasing_prosperity.html?.v=4

the liberals have lied, sold of our resources, allowed coal bed methane to go ahead with very little input from locals, sold of B.C. Rail sent thousands of shipyard jobs to germany, the raids on the ledge which seem to be stalling forever, this is only a few of the stupid things they have done and you like them???

Your leader got into a vehicle while pissed drunk and got caught and still you will campaign for him, and you call people morons and fools for supporting the NDP??? You have a lot of nerve or you are profitting very nicely by the liberals?

You like the way they gave themselves nice big bonuses while throwing the less fortunate in our society onto the streets and giving their corporate sponsors nice big tax breaks.

The opposite of Robin Hood is our el gordo, comes from being an adult child of an alchoholic, you should look into that subject a little and get some insight into where he is coming from, I have! It can be very scary. The NDP screwed up with the fast cats but at least they were trying to create an industry.

gordo sold them for pennies on the dollar to make polical points instead of doing the right thing for the tax payers so you could say he wasted as much of our money as the NDP only I don't see anyone trying to sue him!

Oh right that guy got a nice job with the party didn't he! And the fast cats might be running between Nanaimo and Horseshoe bay, how ironic, oh and isn't it interesting that the company that got the cats for such a good deal built them and would have built the new Ferries if the American CEO hadn't given the contract to germany!

too many false statements ursus old boy. calm down and get your facts straight. someone's been bullshitting you.

Prove what you claim are false statements.

Ed Deak.

no false statements and its all out there, the adult child thing came from a story in the globe and mail, the author who specializes in such cases did a real break down on gordo, it was very interesting. I think it is in my old lap top, will have a look and post it if you like!

Seems gordo was the one who found his dad, when he was sixteen, this would explain his cold heart except when he is in trouble and had to shed a few tears for the public over his d.u.i., the rest came from the media, as biased as it is. Lets not forget the aspers gave the liberal party of b.c. a nice big campaign contribution in cash and services rendered, like in liberal pro editorials!

Rather then making comments like "too many false statements ursus old boy. calm down and get your facts straight. someone's been bullshitting you." why don't you actually try to back them up with some rhetoric! If someone has been bullshitted to it is you since you seem to have swallowed all the right wing lies!

ursus wrote

Don't spend so much energy responding to something that is trying to elicit such a response. Ignore it, and wait for someone to put effort in their challenge.

This is interesting here. I would like to know what the relationship between the Washington Marine group and the BC Liberal's is. I can't figure it out.... is it positive or negatvie, or do we just take it for face value.

It is kind of like when Bombardier was not awarded the RAV contract, even though we were drawing lines to campaign contributions from Bombardier.

Will Washington marine group get approval, or will the Liberals somehow be proven "right" and the ferries will never run.

What is exactly the risk of the Washtington Marine group anyways?

Elliot, it is with great pleasure that I noticed your response to my last posting, especially that all too predictable whine highlighting your insecurities.

Well Elliot, I do trust you will have a wonderful new year, but I would urge you to ignore political news coming out of South and Central America.

Otherwise your optimism (above) will turn to the same kind of mush your intellect spews out.

We won't talk about the growing likelihood of impeachment in the US of an extremely right-wing and corrupt administration either.

And as intellectually challenged you may find my rants, I've got more good news for you. I'm predicting a very good year for Leftist gains including here in Canada as the NDP strengthens its hold on the balance of power in a minority government.

Of course, that might not be great for self-proclaimed fat-cats such as yourself because your taxes may rightly go up.

Whine on my friend. It's a very good year for it and it sounds like music to my ears.

Oh Allan, that "soak the rich" rhetoric is so Nineties. The NDP tried it with their first couple of budgets (there was the famous Glen Clark as-finance-minister budget where basicaly all taxes went up) and look what happened. Our economy went into the tank, as predicted, and we lost ten years of economic growth as a consequence. Last place in Canada.

Notwithstanding the closure of some of the old time industries, you lefties can't seem to admit that the post-NDP economy is now booming with unemployment at historic lows.

Unfortunately this won't last. Eventually those who prefer to rob Peter to pay Paul (aka the Left) will win an election, and the good times will come to an end. And the cycle will repeat itself. In the meantime, I plan to make lots and lots of money. Bwahahaha.

"Well Elliot, I do trust you will have a wonderful new year, but I would urge you to ignore political news coming out of South and Central America." those govt's are trainwrecks allan, and will soon be gone as well. as for the ndp; they're at 18% in the polls. they can achieve 20% at the most in any election federally. since you're so intellectually challenged i'll help you out here: that means 2 out of every 10 canadians support these clowns. jack layton, svend robinson, ian waddell, ed broadbent et al. get real allan. the ndp will never govern or truly hold the balance of power b/c canadians won't stand for it. the recent past was an anomaly that will not likely happen again.

where is your proof martin, in a few years at most this housing boom will slow and then what, we are running out of baby boomers who can afford to retire in B.C., an average house is after all 433,000 last I heard.

By the time these boomers pay the property taxes insurance and golf fees they can't afford to spend money in the local economy so it will be interesting to say the least!

Good for you Martin, but as I urged your buddy Elliot, just don't whine when the tax bill comes in.

Martin I don't think you are capable of a truth, unless you call consistantly being wrong as having a ring of something to it.

You know as well as I do that the '90s were a good time for BC, despite the capital strikes and corporate shenanigans aimed at trying to undemocratically oust a sitting government.

Look at the legislation passed during the '90s. Probably the most human legislation ever in this province.

And despite the Asian meltdown of the '90s, as others have repeatedly reminded you about, the NDP government was consistantly in the black on budgetting especially during Glen Clark's last two years in office.

Elliot, thank you for the math lessons, but my fingers and toes are all still working so I'm just a little ahead of you yet.

By the way, that 20 percent you predict was enough for the NDP to hold the balance of power in the last parliament.

Remember the billions in coprorate tax breaks the NDP stopped Martin from giving out.
I think about 60 percent of Canadians supported that move.

Anyway, we are going to get more of that type of honest government in the next minority parliament and even you will be applauding the wisdom of the New Democrats as the two old pork-barrel political parties continue to embarrass us all.

I love your governments are trainwrecks, but I do think that's a much more accurate description of the federal government to the immediate south of us.

So many of my friends are off to Cuba again this year spending their Canadian dollars enjoying the warm hospitality of truly wonderful people who in recent years have given so much to a region that until recently had been the playgrounds of the CIA and other nasty types.

Yes sir, it looks like the entire western hemisphere south of the Rio Grande has moved away from the fascist style of capitalism that has kept so many people in absolute poverty despite the immense exploitation of natural resources.

And look, Mexico's posed to swing left as well, senor.

Anyway, it looks like it will certainly be an interesting year for you.

open your eyes allan. life's much more interesting that way.

I would really like to see these workers take over the factory and keep it running. They know how, in fact it's all they know. If the profit were not going to line management pockets, they could probably make a go of it. It seems to work in Venezuela. Sometimes you need to break the law first before you can change it. Why are they letting a corporation decide their fate so easily, when they could stay in their community and keep working? Leaving their community would be a tragedy. How angry do people have to be before they take a stand?

nothing intelligent to add to the discussion elliot...

speaking of Venezuela Iborg, klein and company are trying and will succeed in bringing up to 14000 skilled workers from that country to work in the non-union contractors in the tar sands projects and neo-cons like elliot and ronnie are going to support it, sad for our kids who are the ones really getting screwed! By greed!

Gottal love those Caymen accounts eh!

"I would really like to see these workers take over the factory and keep it running." they'd rather let others take all the risk, then call them evil industrialist heartless neo-con brownshirts if they fail.

Elliot, I don't think it's that sinister. They probably just don't see taking over the factory themselves as a real option. There are no recent examples of this in Canada to follow. Not everyone is as versed in world politics as you.

not an easy task to put a pulp mill back into production, for one the company will want to sell anything they can locally or offshore where a lot of the market is, the paper machine in Gold River for example was sold to an asian company competing with existing mills!

When we were building the new boiler at Castlegar in 92 I recall seeing chinese engineers taking pictures writing notes documenting our progress and learning as we built, strange! Now they are a major competitor in asia?

That big liberal (our tax dollars) funded pulp mill in indonesia has to be hurting the local mills, the conservatives would not have done anything different in my opinion both parties are out to kill industry in Canada or they would not have signed into the trade deals that have seen a lot of our Industries shut down! Never mind the rhetoric just look at the facts!

Do your own homework folks! B.C. is being turned into a retirement destination for the elite who want to golf all year around, unless you own a business benefitting from this new economy you are on the outside looking in.

Take a walk around downtown Victoria and count the vacancies in retail space!

I don't know what is more idiotic...you lefties saying the economy now is going down hill, or the NDP was good for BC in the '90's.

Unbelievable how absolutely clueless you socialists are.

typical right wing rhetoric, name calling with no facts, links or otherwise, this proves to me that you have none, so instead of dazzling us with your brilliance you try to baffle us with your b.s.!

poindexter, don't be so bitter.

Facts are facts and Glen Clark's final two budgets presented surplesses.

You know that, the BC Supreme Court acknowledged that, even Gordon Campbell knows that, yet toadies like you continue to spew Campbell's old lies.

Why is that poindexter?

Why don't you want to accept that BC did quite well in the '90s given the world economic situation of the time.

I'll even bet you were investing in BC at the time, although I know you would rather choke than admit it.

Now we are stuck with a premier who makes Bill VanderZalm seem like an upfront and reliable type.

Campbell has all but given most of our timber resources away to a couple of giant American forest firms who no longer have to provide one damned job in BC, not even one for a British Columbian.

You call that boom times, do you?

Hey I do understand there is a bit of a boom in ferry operations this year, which I guess we can thank your Campbell for.

Isn't it great to see perfectly fine private sector ferries plying between Vancouver and Nanaimo stealing passengers away from BC Ferries.

Isn't it wonderful that Campbell sold those fine ferries for less than scrap metal prices and the new owners who put nothing more than a tank of fuel in them are prepared to make huge profits that should be going into government revenues.

Whine on fellow.

yup real good deal for the washington group at the expense of taxpayers, once again gordo has played favours for an american company, or if you will handed them a lot of our tax dollars! Like I said earlier at least clark was trying to create jobs, instead of giving taxpayers money away!

How come the right wing nuts are not complaing about the money gordo wasted on his web portal, as much as 24 million taxpayer dollars! WASTED!!!

Where is the land pimp with his lawsuit for wasting tax payers money.

ursus, here are some facts and figures you requested. From the BC Progress Board's report in 2003:

British Columbia does not perform well on real GDP per capita growth in comparison to
OECD countries. BC ranked 27th out of 31 jurisdictions for average annual growth
between 1992 and 2001. Average annual per capita growth in BC's real GDP was 1.24%
between 1992 and 2001 compared to 6.68% for number one ranked Ireland, 0.42% for
last place Switzerland and 1.74% for the OECD as a whole. On a positive note for
British Columbians, in 2001, we ranked 15th on the level of real per capita GDP among
OECD countries.

what is this, international, got a link where this came from?

Didn't gordo set up the bc progress board to monitor on his behalf?

why are you not upset about the millions gordo wasted on the web portal if you are so concerned about government waste?

Here you go:

http://www.bcprogressboard.com

There is a distinct business and academic tilt to this group, but their work has won praise. Even Carole James has quoted from them from time to time, because their reports are not all rah-rah for the government.

I have a hard time believing anything coming from gordo appointees!

It's worth a giggle to note the amazing similarities in the right-wingding bluster of elliot, martin and poindexter. They must share the same "how to smokescreen facts" manual, produced by some clone of Scott McClellan or Conrad Black. Even they will soon discover that a "booming economy" built by selling out the resources that should belong to our children is a hollow boom indeed. Such practices by our corporate-controlled governments are common but have nothing to do with either a healthy economy or with justice.

"how to smokescreen facts"

They're called 'talking points'. Designed so that small minds can repeat them ad infinitum until they think they understand the issues.

Check David Schreck's comments about the BC Progress Board at this site.

http://www.strategicthoughts.com/record2005/pbwelfare.html

not much point of checking anything of david schreck's unless you're a bona-fide lefty? he's almost as predictable as his twin bill tieleman.

Yeah Allan my favourite fact about how great Glen Clark's last two budgets were is how the last one was pumped up with false forestry revenues. Staff saw this and pointed it out, but revenues were still projected based on those false numbers. That's why they called it a FUDGET BUDGET!

Not to mention how absolutely wonderful the fast ferries were, all $454 million overbudget dollars of them. I say let Washington try to make a buck with them, good luck!!

But my favourite part of the '90's was seeing my friends and lots of other young people leave BC for Alberta. Close second was watching the NDP destroy mining in BC with over regulation and anti mining/business policies, while the rest of Canada and the world grew.

Yup, the '90's were BC's glory days. All those people moving back to BC now must fools. I mean the Liberals winning a second MAJORITY gov't must mean people are unhappy with the direction BC is going now. Or wait, maybe that's just the whiny losers on the left who are missing their handouts who are upset?

Poindexter equation
sound+fury=nothing.

poindexter you are so full of sh!t it is almost laughable, albertans were moving here in droves during the 90s. You couldn't buy a job in Calgary or Edmonton until the late 90s, the point about the fast ferries is sick, gordo played politics with out money fool, and you swallowed it hook line and sinker. Btw the only people moving to B.C. that I see are retirees looking for warm weather and golfing all year!

Know someone who took a bad fall and tried to get out of Ironwork got his gas ticket, finally gave up as he couldn't compete with albertans who were underbidding everyone, most were working for 10-12 bucks an hour, that is how desperate they were. That was in 95!

Lets not forget klein exporting his welfare recipients to B.C. with one way bus tickets to Vancouver and when the NDP tried to stop it by increasing the residence rules the chretien liberals cut off their transfer payments, the drunk running B.C. has been getting windfall transfer payments! The tax payers of this Province should sue Alberta for loss of revenue why should we pay his bills!

poindexter you are so full of sh!t it is almost laughable, albertans were moving here in droves during the 90s. You couldn't buy a job in Calgary or Edmonton until the late 90s, the point about the fast ferries is sick, gordo played politics with out money fool, and you swallowed it hook line and sinker. Btw the only people moving to B.C. are retirees looking for warm weather and golfing all year!

Know someone in Parksville who tried to get out of Ironwork and got his gas ticket, finally gave up as he couldn't compete with albertans who were underbidding everyone, most were working for 10-12 bucks an hour, that is how desperate they were. That was in 95!

Lets not forget klein exporting his welfare recipients to B.C. with one way bus tickets to Vancouver and when the NDP tried to stop it by increasing the residence rules the chretien liberals cut off their transfer payments, the drunk running B.C. has been getting windfall transfer payments!

The tax payers of this Province should sue Alberta for loss of revenue why should we pay his bills!

ursus; that's one of the most ridiculous posts i've ever seen. you're making the history up as you go. give me a break man. the ndp was a bloody disaster. does 77-2 not mean anything to you? or was everyone in the province bamboozled by canwest global? at some point you have to face reality, or maybe you need to grow up a little. maybe you're too young to have lived through the mess and you're getting all your info from david teileman or bill schreck? whatever the reason, give your head a shake and read something factual at least.

Elliot:

I recommend you re-look at 77 -2, particularly the percentage of popular vote garnered by both parties (Hint: the Libs got 57.5%). Include the fact that far less than 100% of eligible voters cast a ballot and it becomes clear that public preference for either party is much less one-sided than that result would have the easily-bamboozled believe.

But you knew that. It's just not included in the talking points is it?

stumpy; sounds like you've been taking a political science course from andrew petter.

Sounds like you can't accept having the bias in your pre-conceptions outed.

Since you can't refute the facts it's time to shoot the messenger eh?

ursus we should sue the NDP for driving our province into the ground. You truly are living in a left wing socialist fantasyworld to believe the '90's were good. but whatever.

oh and stumpy, i got 4 words for you buddy...SECOND MAJORITY LIBERAL GOV'T!!! woo!

percentage change in seats from 2001 to 2005

Liberals 40.3% drop
NDP 1,550% increase

Keep up the good work Pointy! Your boys will implode just like their Social Credit predecessors in a couple more elections. The N.D.P. ain't going nowhere. Get the facts first next time you want to be King of the Sandbox.

I'm not worried about the next election at all!

You are right there though- the NDP ain't going nowhere!!!

"I'm not worried..."

Ignorance truly is bliss. Bye bye pointy

Yeah so I lied, I mean, if moldy oldies like Chudnovsky, Dix and Dorky Evans can get elected again, God knows what might happen.

But I like to think the average joe voter is significantly more intelligent than the average NDPer, so we should be ok. Say hi to Carole for me Stumpster!

"Yeah so I lied"

I hope you don't pass that attitude on to your kids if you have any.

" I like to think the average joe voter is significantly more intelligent than the average NDPer."

You'd probably be wrong... again.

no, no, my kids will be taught not to let the NDP turn them into victims.

'Liberals 40.3% drop
NDP 1,550% increase'
i'm pretty sure that didn't put carole james in the premier's chair stumpy.
no chance in the next election either. if things look bad for gordo he'll quit just at the right time and the next leader will ride the hype to another landslide.
sorry to ruin your day stumpy.

This is more fun than talking about the dumb pulp mill in Squamish. Or was this article about anti nuclear gay communist male strippers who worship Tommy Douglas? Oh well, whatever, it doesn't really matter anyways.

You've already been schooled Elliot. Go get numerate before you get in over your head again.

Yes Pointy it was fun. I do love pointing out the intellectual errors that emanate from the acolytes of greed.

And I enjoy laughing and slamming you and your fellow NDPer's "I'm a victim so everyone else should be too!" rants. Thanks.

schooled? over my head? i'm splitting a gut here stumpy. hope that someday you grow up and smell the coffee.

One would think gentlemen of your intellectual gigantism would understand that simple nay-saying doesn't constitute an argument (let alone a debate) but alas it is not to be.

good nite lads

allanh:

Then of course, you wouldn't mind shutting down the whole of the lower mainland, south Vancouver Island, and replanting them into the forest they once were.......?

And perhaps, shutting down the (extremely environmentally destructive) prairie farmlands, and letting the natural flora and fauna return.....?

And all of southern Ontario, sothe magnificent hardwood forests that once grew there could return......?

Too simplistic allan. Without your elaborating in much greater detail, you would have us all squeezing ourselves back into that little area of Africa from which we all came (at least that's our home in theory....). If you not so, then just where do you envisage your "line in the sand"?