I've heard about this story on the CBC and was startled. I'm very glad people are following up on this situation. The investigation hinted that because William Blackmore's family were large corporate industry owners that the government was not willing to step in.

The Mormons are the fastest growing religion right now.

There is a reason to kick out Lost Boys. If there are too many boys, then the old men cannot have ten wives. (They do so teach them math!) As for why the government does not take action, it is very difficult for civil servants to investigate without people who will complain on the record. Not to mention the untrivial concern about trampling on people's religious prerogatives.

The fastest growing religion? Who counts those beans?

Can anyone expect an administration such as mr.campbell's to intervene?The lost males certainly were given the short end of stick,some would say ,but there is a misandrist culture in Canada to consider and the non interfering ideological stance of the neo con fervor across the spectrum of modernity to consider. Canada does send young males to die en masse as observed in the last 100 years repeatedly. Canada deserves what it sows in the cultural weave, warp and whoof. HOPEFULLY men will see how they are used to provide sperm the forgotten about, but i doubt it. c

the fastest growing religion? Maybe the fastest breeding religion...

poiuy in 1992 the N.D.P.were in power, ask them why nothing was done to help out the women and children.

Misandry? Actually, I think this article is more about misogyny, poiuy. Your point about killing off young men and disowning them is well taken. What Jane Blackmore says about enslaving girls and women is also horrifying. But it's obvious the men hold all the power in this community, including the power to disown the lost boys. This power structure is generally known as "patriarchy."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/mor/index.htm for "Sacred Texts: Mormons"

That photo is creeee-peeeee...

The official Internet site of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is at http://www.lds.org/.

You took the words out of my mouth, Jane. I mean really, Poiuy- the "lost boys" are damn lucky if they get out of that creep fest of a society rather than be FORCED to stick around and bear 10 kids and feed 30 people three meals a day seven days a week. This is f'n DISGUSTING!!! and I've seen some crazy sh** on my travels but I'm appalled that this is going on here.

Jane sounds like a smart, witty woman though (good on you!! telling that doctor to damn well give you birth control) and so there is hope. She makes many fine points, among them "It helped to know that I could make a living, and wouldn't have to rely on anybody's support" (YUP...girls!!!!) The entire convo she had with Winston was brilliant. Oh- and wondering why it has taken so long for this to be noticed and dealt with legally. Gee, I don't know, if I were in power it would have been dealt with a hell of a long time ago. But hey- in a country where our leader FIRES a woman (Parrish) for speaking her mind against a man most of the world detests, is it any wonder, really, that the 15 yr old girls of this community are treated like nothing but breeding animals? Ick- I'm so sickened.

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Sorry about that.

A few points to clarify: The LDS church being talked about above is not the same as these "Mormon fundamentalists." While the remnants of polygamist culture still exist in the regular Mormon church, it's mostly in the form of nudge-and-wink jokes, and a certain laxness when it comes to prosecuting actual polygamists in Utah. But most Mormons don't know the particulars of their polygamist history, don't understand why polygamist sects exist, and don't want to.

Second, while Mormons like to claim that they're the fastest-growing religion in the world (and I believe Newsweek said the same thing about five years back), they aren't. That distinction belongs to Pentacostalism, which is exploding in Africa right now. Mormonism is certainly growing fast, but church figures tend not to count the high number of inactive members, and they make it fairly difficult for people to remove their names from church rolls.

Good site for more: www.lds-mormon.com

Ah yes, the sales and marketing approach to organized religion. Last year, another publication was touting Islam. I don't agree with Adorno on everything, but he was right on when he said that any belief can be twisted to support someone's pet project. Breeders, indeed.

I don't know that the government can do anything . The girls are fifteen so statuatory rape laws don't apply. The participants may be ignorant, but they are willing. The community is reviled and shunned in the larger community which doesn't help any of the folk who might be tempted to leave it.

Actually, according to Canadain laws, what is happening is ILLEAGAL. According to an RCMP officer I spoke to, it is illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to have sex with someone who is more than two years older than them. This law was put into place to in order to protect young children from being sexually abused by other young children. According to a social worker that I spoke to, children under the age of six are most often sexually abused by other children under the age of 12...but that is another story....the point is...IT IS ILLIEGAL for men over the age of 17 to have sex with a 15 year old!

I've never heard of that age exception being enforced in any court, Amanda. I'm not implying that this is a good thing, but willing 14-year-olds appear to be fair game in practice. So the question is, if the Crown has the authority to prosecute these men, what's stopping them? Do you actually have to catch them in the act?

The REAL...- these girls are not WILLING. If one is ignorant and doesn't know any better that is hardly the same as being "willing". Honestly, have you spoken to these girls and asked them if given choices, they would like to marry a 50 yr old man and have 10 kids? If they think this is all there is in life, then I suppose that can be taken as "willing". Have you ever been a 15 yr old girl? I have, and in the big picture you don't hold a lot of power and are pretty unable to make your own decisions- even when you are educated and aware of what is going on around you (which I was). So don't be ridiculous and say something so utterly off- hand when the lives of these innocent children are at stake. How dare you. Jane mentions education and that she would like it to not be such a closed society and for others to be able to go in and give them information. Then we'd see how many of those girls would be willing, fox channel. Sign me up, I'll go in and talk with the girls. Tomorrow.

I came to the west coast in 1956, at which time the persecution of the Doukhobours was in full swing in B.C. Daily reports in the Vancouver Sun of RCMP raids on the villages where these folk lived and of the forced separation of their children into the New Denver institution, in order to assure that they would receive a good and proper education . These children were of parents with a hard working ethic and did not embrace any form of polygamy, their kids had all the benefits of their community, to live and work and leave, if they wished, upon age of majority. How then, can the authorities look the other way, regarding the holocaust that is Bountiful. To ask the NDP why they took no action during their stewardship, regarding Bountiful, rings hollow, after all this atrocity has been tolerated by the conservative, liberal, socred/liberal governments that have plagued our province, for years past, and whom are now bending over backwards to avoid biting the bullet.

The situation in Bountiful has been known for years . CBC has done more than one powerhouse documentary on this... why does the government do dick-all? Have you any idea how much Winston "swinging dick" Blackmore owns, or how much $$$$ this cult spends in those two towns? Figure fifty kids...their mothers all drawing welfare...(oh, how polite not to mention that little fact which the CBC did mention!!)... and you get some idea of the amount of raw dollars going into the communities...plus Winnie's several very profitable business interests...plus...plus..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ are the reason the government has done nothing. It was easy to push the Doukhabours around, they lived communally , spent very little money, raised their own food AND were sitting on land the governement wanted.....Doukhabour farms and orchards were taken and razed to make way for the airport......it's always about $$$$$$$$$$$ . And for all that they claim to eschew things of this world they line'em up and tell'em how to vote at the polls... and they vote for the ones who leave them to their own sick fun and games. There's more corruption than only that which is exposed in the structure of the cult...are the border guards sound asleep or is it a hire the handicapped project and they only hire the deaf, dumb, and blind. Hi FI!!!!

Fi, it's quite one thing to talk about the ethos of a 15-year-old's mind, and another thing to talk about how permission granted and taken is interpreted by the law. You react as if you presume I'm contented about the situation in Bountiful, whereas I'm simply trying to figure out why the Crown has ignored it, in other words, whether or not they CAN prosecute these men according to the laws of our land. So keep your hair on. Sheesh.

Anne, yes the almighty dollar talked, but so did our bleached-white suspicions of people with accents and foriegn names who weren't afraid to question authority. Better to look and talk like "us," and especially if you buy locally, which makes you a valuable asset to some. Lesson: stay just below the horizon, act sanctimoniously, and never, ever challenge or talk back.

Anne, I'm not following the connection you're trying to make between the Doukhabors and the Mormons. Some Doukhabors were once quite active in bombing, arson, immolation and extortion campaigns throughout the region, hence the police interference in their affairs. Yes, the government treated them atrociously, but a lot of them weren't exactly practicing pacifists either.

I tend to see rural/smaller urban area policemen as being the type who would just itch for an excuse to haul in the leaders of that Mormon community. HINT to Amanda Euringer: A good follow-up would be an explanation from the Crown as to why they haven't done anything about the situation in Bountiful.

The REAL- no, I am aware you do not AGREE with this, only a sicko would and having read your posts before I'm pretty sure you aren't one :) BUT if that is the case then, whether or not "the laws of our land" CAN prosecute these men- it's time to change the laws isn't it?? Or break them.

Hey Anne!!

Com-on all you inteligent people, you gotta know why no action has been taken, nor will be taken.Are you going to leave it up to a bird brain like the me the to tell ya, well ok here goes. The leaders or elders or what ever the hell one may want to refer to them as, are protected by The Perrie Elliott Trudeau, Constitution Act 1982. It's all there the in Constitution of Canada, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which contains, Fundamental Freedoms(religion) Drmocratic Rights, Mobility Rights,Legal Rights, This one is probably the kicker, Equality Rights. In other words they are protected by the law of the land. I Think if they are forced to dismantle their reglioius belief,there could be consequences. Thanks, Perrie this is part your heritage.

I'm crushed --- crushed -- to learn that you don't think I'm a sicko, Fi. :-}

Speaking as someone who has agitated and worked for advocacy, it takes a lot of community building. Prepare yourself for a long, slow, frustrating haul. Less than a century ago, girls were routinely married off at fourteen, particularly in rural backwaters. You may want to read up on Duplessis' "Orphans" for a sense of what often happened to those who weren't.

For some reason, the Yahk / Kitchner/ Goat River / Creston corridor has attracted a lot of strange hard-core religious fanatics, paramilitary racists and just plain ugly hate-filled rednecks, including enclaves of Terry Long's followers. Cross-border arms smuggling is huge there. I would be very cautious with the civil disobedience bluster for the ways in which it could end up inciting the wrong sort of reaction and backfiring on those child-brides.

C-gull, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not extend its protection over religious rights in cases where said religion conflicts with our criminal code. The question is whether this group is breaking the law.

MAD FOX---- One B.C. Attortuniy General, possibly two, have already stated this a Constitutional matter . It's over, done deal, kaput, fini, the end. Further more, what the hell has Yahk,Goat River or any where else got to with the topic?

C-Gull, the comment on the Yahk-Creston corridor is that it attracts a lot of strange paramilitary and religious cults which are very similar in nature to the Branch Davidian group. If you've ever stopped in these places, you sometimes find the most anti-social tracts in the oddest places, stapled to telephone poles, for example. In case Fi wasn't blustering, I would be very cautious about poking around in some of those communities.

As for the BC Attorney General, if that's the latest word, then nothing will be done by this government, not unless someone finds human remains.

Mad fox----I don't feel these people are of a violent threat to themselves or any one else.That doesn't seem to be the issue.The direct information I've received, is that they all are friendly, polite,and good workers, and appeared to be very healthy.

Polygamy complicates genealogy. http://www.familysearch.org/

Were I, as an athiest, to have more than one wife, I'm sure I WOULD BE Charged with bigamy.Likewise, if I had sex with a minor, I'm sure I would also be publicly humiliated,too. Religion should be subservient to the state and subject to state laws. Why are these Latter Day Hypocrites exempt? Are we an impotent nation?

As I recall back in the 90s a legal opinion was sought in the AG's dept and the one offered at the time was if this matter was challenged under the charter the polygamists would stand a good chance in such a challenge. I think there are ways to deal with this situation by using existing laws and child protection investigation methods where they are required.

John --Prior to "Perrie's 1982 Constitution Act" I doubt this situation would have been tolerated.(eg the son's of freedom doukhobours --see-- Dave A 11/19/2004/8.14.52PM) I'm pretty sure, although not positive that they came to this country shortly after the repatriation of Perrie's Constitution, Knowing full well, that they would be protected under the Law,and that they are. I'm not an expert on this matter, I can only go by what I've read and have been told , but on the other hand isn't it the so called experts who got us in this situation.

C-gull, I think your rant against the Constitution is a bit much. It does not protect anyone from criminal charges if crimes can be proven and if authorities follow through. My read of your posts suggest you are still engaged in your 30-year war against a progessive prime minister. Yes, the constitution gave individuals more rights (I think most Canadians appreciate that), and it limits the state or its police forces etc. from abusing those rights. It doesn't give religions free-rein to break the law. Politicians and police agencies do that by not enforcing the law or by selective enforcement. Try blocking a logging road or other corporate-controlled plan, even if it is causing obvious environmental or health problems and see how long it takes for our public protection forces to show up and and enforce it to the letter.

I have a few more things to add...Ann: according to Jane, the families of Bountiful are actually very poor. Jane would have had no reason to lie to me about that; we did actually have a discussion about it -but in the interest of keeping the article consice it was left out.The women of Bountiful are applying for Welfare because they NEED IT in order to survive. Jane did not even apply for child support in her custody battle over her daughter. She says that while Winston does have a thriving business, it is only ONE company, and it is expected to support MANY MANY children and wives. Even though Bountiful has lots of cheap labour ( ie: all young men under the age of 16), they still struggle to support the numbers of non-working (read: money-making) inhabitants in a community predominantly composed of women and children (and no -I do not agree that our tax dollars should go to supporting the community -so don't get your backs up about that). In my two hour interview with Jane, she says very clearly that people ARE being harmed in that community, and that the harms that are being done have nothing to do with RELIGION, and everything to do with a lack of reponsability towards being able to support the children that you have brought into this world. In any other situation, where children are being uncared for, some form of protection agency would step in - and the situation would be controlled. In this case, Canada has turned a blind eye due to a very thinly based case of " Relgious Freedoms ", and the fact that the people who are being harmed do not have the resources or the education to defend themselves. And you are right Fox, I have every intention of following up with the Crown

Cheers Amanda.

C-Gull, I had a discussion in another thread not too long ago about Weibo Ludwig and Karman Willis and that tragedy was still fresh in my mind. I was more concerned about the reaction of hate-groups and red-necks in the area rather than the Mormon community itself, or even the larger community of Creston which pretty much seems to ignore them.

mad fox yes I recall some mention about Weibo Ludwig. Amanda --I used to think that oil and whisky were the ills of the world but as I mature I've come to realize that it's oil and relgion that are the ills. Good Luck to you and Jane it's a sad situation

I'd have a great deal of difficulty raising one child; 3 makes my head reel and more than that...wha??! Well, I mean really,...clearly someone has to step in and educate these young girls and women and tell the men to butt the f*** out if they start in on some kind of "birth control is against our religion" rant- or if anyone does for that matter. In this case "religious freedoms" should take a backseat to "the right to be educated and make informed choices" which OBVIOUSLY most of this population does not have. If you need any help with research or back-up when you go into the community, Amanda (as FOX suggests it could be sketchy) I'm there :)

Fi, aside from the 2 year age difference for those young girls, there is nothing anyone can do to change this situation without violating their rights. You cannot force a group to integrate into the larger community -- attempts to do, as with the hajib issue in France, only further isolates and hurts the vulnerable people of that community. If you want to help, then help the people who leave that community. Provide them with friendship, an education and a means of livelihood so that they never regret their decision.

The fastest growing religion in Canada (aside from the immigrant ones) is Wicca/Paganism - grew by 380% between 1991 and 2001. Wicca is feminist, left-wing, and sexually permissive. I don't believe that there's anybody who doesn't think that Patriarchal religion which oppressive women and children is a bad thing. However, the issue has got to be the free choice of adults to live and believe however they want to and to bring up their children in the religion that they choose. Under what circumstances should a government interfere with the religious choice of its people? Should the Jehovah's Witnesses be banned as they were under Duplessi in Quebec? Should the Doukhabours be imprisoned again because they are communalist, or the Hutterites not be permitted to buy land to establish new colonies? Should Muslim men not be permitted to have more than one wife? Should atheists not be allowed to sit in Parliament? How about Catholics? Or any religious person? Give me a good reason. I don't hear any. I do not accept the premis that secularism is better than religion or that the secular state trumps religious conviction. Why should it? Is the secular state founded on divine revelation? Was the genocide against the Ukraine in the 1930s perpetrated by old Joe Stalin less atrocious because it had no religious component? Is atheism to be government policy? Bite Me. The free religious choice of adults, like the political choice,and the rights of mobility etc, is not optional. And it does not apply only to religions that we like. I remember people being kidnapped and forcibly brainwashed in a horrible procedure called "deprogramming" because their parents didn't like their choice of religion. Is that the option here? Blessed Be Samuel Wagar Wiccan Priest, former Human Rights Complanant

I find it hard to believe that welfare fraud, misappropriation of school funds, "assault" in its various black forms, and previously filed RCMP complaints are being ducked by all our usually righteous, skin-flint government agencies. It smells more of corruption than just patriarchy to me...getting the scoop on that would be choice. Good luck Amanada

allen--- some more "rant" for you. Your Progressive prime minister. The same one that fingered the citizens of Salmon Arm from a speeding train,the same one who wouldn't entrench property rights in "his" constitution, but entrenched religion . The same one who entrenched a lop sided eastern controlled senate.The same one who's debt were still paying, The same one who pulled the life blood out of Alberta with his national energy plan( should read cheap fuel for the east).Shall I go on?

Thanks Amanda; very good article.If the problem is really out of control maybe Jane in her off hours (haha) would go to the gov't on behalf of the others left behind, especially the ones that are scared for themselves or their children.

I am one of 7 women (Jane Blackmore is not one of them; her sister Debbie Palmer is)who have complained to the BC Human Rights Tribunal that four government ministries (attorney-general, education,child protection, and women's services)are guilty of gross dereliciton of duty because they have not upheld the human rights of the women and children of Bountiful, or protected the women's equality rights which are guaranteed by our Charter. Our complaint has been accepted and it is hoped that the public hearing will be early in 2005. Neither the government nor the polygamist elders have a leg to stand on. It is not true that polygamists are protected by the Charter's guarantee of religious freedom. The federal government ratified The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights on 19 May 1976. Article 18 states: Everyone has the freedom to practise their religion SUBJECT ONLY TO SUCH LIMITATIONS AS ARE PRESCRIBED BY LAW AND ARE NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS OF OTHERS. Polygamy contravenes Section 293 of the Criminal Code.As well, the federal government ratified the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (Equality in Marriage and Family Relations: 04/02/94. CEDAW General Recommendations 21), on October 18, 2002. Sections 14 and 39 state that polygamy contravenes women's equality rights and also harms their children. As well, our Charter states in Sections 15 and 28 that women have complete equality with men. A-G Plant (and previous A-Gs) could have used these three documents to stop polygamy at Bountiful, but chose not to do so. Why? My guess is that it will cost millions to bring a case, and this government is cutting back on costs. By the way, youths aged 14 - 18 are protected by Section 153 of the Criminal Code, which proscribes sexual activity between them and adults sexually using them when the youths are in a financially and emotionally dependent position on the adults. If you're a 15 year old girl and your parents have obeyed the male elders' orders and given you to be a concubine in the harem of an adult male, believe me, you're in a "financially and emotionally dependent position." Don't forget kids at Bountiful are brought up to believe they must obey the male elders and the "Prophet" or their souls will roast forever in Hell. This is not sex given of free choice -- this is sexual coercion and sexual coercion is rape. Bountiful is composed of a bunch of pedophiles who hide behind the figleaf of religion in order to have sexual access to 14, 15 and 16 year old kids. This is disgusting in a supposedly first-world country like Canada that has a Charter stating men and women are equal, and laws protecting children. Do we really think it's OK to have harems and child concubines and child mothers in our country, or have kids taught "Negroes come from a war in Heaven?" The group I work with says "No," and we truly believe that the BC Human Rights Tribunal will agree with us. It is my personal hope that Winston Blackmore, who has helped himself to many child concubines,will be jailed for rape. Since the problem is so huge, we can start by stopping the trafficking of young girls to and from Bountiful to harems in the US, and we can insist that Bountiful school adhere to the BC Education Act, and be forced to stop teaching kids that "Negroes come from a war in Heaven," that all those who don't practise polygamy will go to Hell, and that girl students be allowed the same educational curriculum as the boys, which is not what is happening at present. (Why educate girls when they're only going to end up as child concubines and child mothers?) Bountiful is a cess pit. It's way past time to clean this cess pit out.

I am a Step-mother in law to Jane, because I am Winston's Step-mother, and am aslo Winston's sister-in-law. I left Bountiful in 1988 with 8 children and Jane is right it is a terrifying thing to do with a grade 10 education and children who had been traumatized in dozens of different ways. We are doing OK and all my children are still on the outside of the group making everyday choices and struggles to get an education and be contributing members of society. All of the Lost Boys are either Step-sons, half-brothers, nephews, or some other complicated relationship. For Mad Fox's and C-gull's information and the inference that there can be no charges because of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms challenge --- I have information you may not be aware of. Yes the government in BC decided not to prosecute Polygamy based on their fears the attempt wouldn't withstand a Charter Challenge based on freedom of religion -- But we are not talking about religion here. The serious pressing issues to do with Bountiful and her sister communities in the United States are that young girls have been sent across an International Border (trafficked) both direction to be assigned to men in all these communities for sexual and breeding purposes. There is no nicer way to say what is happening. Some of those girls have had a grade 5 education so there is no question that they have informed consent even if a 15 or 16 year old can consent to be "married" to a man 2 or 3 times her age. The other reality you may not be aware of is that ALL of the men in Bountiful or any other fundamentalist Mormon Polygamous Community are Elders in their level of ordained "priesthood" when they are given even one wife -- so right off the start they are in "postion of authority and control over that child". Many of the men in Bountiful who have impregnated these young girls have done so from the postions of being teachers, elders, Principles, Heads of Companies, and in Winston's case the Superintendent of their Private School. If any of you can find an instance where Elders in a church or men in any of these other positions of authority have been able to impregnate young girls under the age of nineteen in BC with out being prosecuted to the full extent of the law then let me know. But the law doesn't work the same for under age girls impregnated under age by men in any of the fundamentalist mormon Polygamous groups as it does if some Church Elder from Vancouver or a Principle from Kelowna got one of his Students pregnant. In Arizona a 47 year old man was found having sex with a fifteen year old girl - he didn't belong to the polygamous group and he was sentenced to 45 years in prison. In Colorado City Rodney Holmes, a police officer, registered with the both states of Arizona and Utah was charged with impregnating his first wifes little sister starting at age fifteen so she was pregnant with her third child at nineteen. Some judge down there gave him a conditional sentence and community service. He doesn't get to be a cop anymore but how sad! In Canada our Attorney Generals office has yet to charge any of the Canadian polygamous with impregnating under-age girls when many of these girls have been trafficked into Canada to start with and are assigned to men who are in the positions of authority I described earlier. Jane is right - education is key and Fox is right - please help support us on the outside so we can continue to educate and get resources to the "lost boys" and any other women who want to leave. And by all means lets try to find ways to get education into Bountiful so these female children have a hope of ever making "informed choices". Thankyou. Debbie Palmer at

I wasn't aware of those other facts, Debbie. Thanks for filling me in. So what is the most pressing area of practical help that community builders can provide right now?

C-gull, I really don't care about your hate obsession with a man who most Canadians see as the best prime minister we have had. First of all trains just don't "speed" through Salmon Arm. I was heartened he wouldn't put property rights in the constitution because frankly, I saw it as an effort by capitalists and their lackies to give wealth more value than humanity. The only ones who are pulling the life blood out of Alberta are the oil extractors and the governments that toady to them. Hey, you even managed to slam easterns. You sound an awful lot like Ralph Klein except you haven't laid a verbal beating on the homeless and poor here yet.

Sam- I hope Jancis and Jane's sister answered your questions. "The issue has got to be the free choice of adults to live and believe however they want." Correct. Unless those beliefs hurt "the free choice of (other) adults to live and believe however they want." But I disagree entirely with the second half of your sentence, "and to bring up their children in the religion that they choose." To an extent. NOT when it interferes with that child's life in any way that will harm them (being married off at 15 and impregnated because you are mormon being an example). "Under what circumstances should a gov't interfere with the religion of its people?" I believe the woman above answered that one. "Should Muslim men not be permitted to have more than one wife?" They can have 15 if they want; I can have 7 husbands if I wish and you may have 3 of each IF all parties are making those choices independently and with absolute free choice and non-coercion. NOT when the religion (defined by men) and traditions (defined by men) set up a system that benefits- oh, hey, what a surprise... the men. "I do not accept the premise that secularism is better than religion." Why not? Of course it's better. It's a heck of a lot EASIER, too, to have a state based on secularism. People are then given CHOICE from the word go. To force a blanket way of worship on an entire society is downright frightening. Sure, it means controlling people efficiently, brainwashing, hypnotizing, what have you. BUT WHO DOES RELIGION HISTORICALLY BENEFIT?????

It blows my mind that so many people still struggle with this; I remember sitting in church as a little girl of 8, looking up at stained glass windows and the hypnotized people around me while the priest droned on and on, and I remember thinking "What is going on here? What is my mother trying to do to me here?" (My dad came along for the ride but wasn't into it either). My point is, no one should have this imposed on them. It wasn't and still isn't for me and I was able to make that choice- because of the secular society I grew up in and because one of my parents wasn't forcing it upon me. Many of the girls in the mormon society are up against a great deal more and their basic human rights are being violated as a result. Atheism (the belief that there is no Goddess/God)as gov't policy is the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise how do we decide what religion everyone follows? Seems to me that is the problem causing a great deal of the anguish in the world, as it has for all known time.

Sorry, Fi, you lost me at the 'atheism as government policy is the only thing which makes sense' bit. No, actually. That's just another reactionary position, like saying "the only government policy which makes sense is a theocracy."

Often, spirituality based organizations like the Salvation Army, the Knights of Pythias, Oddfellows, and so forth, or even churches who are less fundamentalistic and more service oriented are the only groups who have the networks and resources in place to provide tangible support for people like the 'lost boys' or the women who leave Bountiful. Other community groups like womens' groups, the Rotarians, the Lions, the Kinsmen, the Freemasons and school groups also rally people and make good things happen. This is particularly so in smaller centres. Before they can step in and contribute, however, they need to know how.

Fi, you were correct in your first statement:"It's a heck of a lot EASIER too, to have a state based on secularism." To date it's the only ism I've come across that is more or less inclusive of everyone. Religion is a personal choice and it or its doctrines should be forced on no one. The argument that religion trumps Constitutional rights and criminal prosecution is bogus and, at best, an excuse for weak-kneed politicans. This is the type of case governments should be adament about and willing to push to the Supreme Court. To do otherwise in a case as extreme as this is to suggest the Constitution isn't worth the paper its printed on and that young lives can be sacrificed for a larger good. Papers can be rewritten. Lives can't.

While the philosopher's debate is interesting, and necessary in a free society, I have two very basic questions. I am particularly interested in hearing answers from those persons with direct experience of the situation in Bountiful. 1. what practical action can the ordinary concerned citizen take that will help to bring about change? 2. what help do the women and their children need (specifics please - not generalizations like "education")

allan Hate, now that's a stretch,next you'll be accusing me of blasphemy for using the name of Perrie in vain. What your attemping to accomplish is a diversion from the facts and it would appear that the only one that belives you is you. I did how ever take note that you made no mention or reference to my remark in reguards to the entrencment of religion in the charter of rights and freedoms. Why,to touchy a subject, hit a chord,what? Ralph Klein got voted in for his 4th term yeserday, must be doing something right in(debt free Alberta)

C-gull. I didn't answer the question because I thought it was assinine, but if want one then I'd say you are again playing with words like the "speeding train" you had running through Salmon Arm. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was "god" that was entrenched in the Constitution, which means you have a right to believe whatever you think is the divine way or whatever you worship as sacred. It does not entrench religion itself and the only thing I would ever feel "touchy" about would be if I didn't also have the right to freedom from religion or your belief in whatever god you adopt even if it is real estate. It's not specifically spelled out, but is in effect regardless, unlike your private property redherring that properly was tossed. Hey, your questions aren't exactly puzzlers. It sounds as if you spent some time with some red-neck Albertan hashing over boogeymen from the past. Get over it "Perrie" or Pierre has been gone for a couple of years and out of office for almost two decades. I'm quite surprised your buddy Ralph lost so many seats given his continuing popularity.

The courage of Jane Blackmore and Debbie Palmer (sisters) who individually found a way to leave the confines of the authoritarian, autocratic, totalitarian grip of polygamy as it exists in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS) is to be applauded. The sorry state of affairs when it comes to governments that refuse to take issue with the illegal practice of polygamy is to be condemned. Polygamy is the boil that festers on the soil of our first-world nations. First world nations do not spawn concubines and slaves. For anyone in Canada wanting to work to Stop Polygamy in Canada, please join the email network campaign to Stop Polygamy in Canada. The network has been operating for 13 months and is growing and growing. Join and write informed letters to government officials; network information on polygamy to your friends. This is not a time to stick your head in the sand. The more people writing letters and educating others, the better. Only a united voice will Stop Polygamy in Canada. Sincerely, Nancy Mereska, Coordinator Stop Polygamy in Canada

Just a couple of things I would like to clarify. To C-gull - You are right, most of the people in Bountiful are friendly, polite, hard-working and anything else you could say about a community where the children have been raised like, "calves in a stall" since 1947 and speaking of geneology both sides of my family go back to the 1850's and earlier in the main-stream Mormon Church. But the problem with raising children like, "calves in a stall" which can be quite rightly compared to how veal is raised - calves put in stalls where they barely have room to stand up and lay down, kept in the dark until they go blind and then offered up to slaughter. This might seem extreme to some of you but this teaching has been a very strict directive to parents as to the kind of contact their children were to have with the outside world. If we were to have contact before the community got big enough that people were chosen by the leaders and assigned to become teachers and sometimes nurses - then we were told exactly how to behave. Of course we were supposed to be polite and if we didn't work hard we didn't eat and survive the winter. The Lost Boys work very hard - the only reality and sense of esteem they have left is that they know how to work 14 hour days. They have lost all right to their "priesthood" which to a male is right to live and their own mothers in many cases have told them they would like them to get in one big vehicle and drive into a ravine. The perception that their is no link to violent behavior such as happened with the Douhkabours is mostly accurate up to now -- at least violence that anyone on the outside or "gentiles" would ever hear about. But since 2002 and half of Bountiful is following this prophet from the United States the threats of violence and young girls and in some cases entire families dissapearing, Bountiful has entered into a whole other phase. Notwithstanding the fact only touched upon in the article where 95 percent of the boy and girls who have left Bountiful have gone through a phase the RCMP did not report on either which included drinking rampages that ended up with violent face offs between the young people from the local towns and the "apostate" polygamous kids. There have been some horrible instance ex: one boy ended up in hospital for three months because he was face stomped (a nephew) another boy was shot through the foot with an illegal firearm (a gentile - the gun belonged to a half brother) at least five brand new vehicles destroyed in accidents - to count only a few. Yes we need help - yes the government ministries need to want to talk to us and find out how a healthy, as respectful as possible intervention can happen. Unfortunately the time for the best intervention was in 1993 before some of these more drastic and horrifying events had even happened. This last split in the Polygamous leadership is the worst I've seen yet and the results could make the Waco disaster look like a family barbecue - as macabre as that sounds. And tragic because I still have 43 brothers and sister and countless other family I care about on the inside and they are IN HARMS WAY! We need help and support for the advocates and help networking and meeting with people who have ideas how to set up support systems which are not available in the already over taxed and dysfunctional Social Safety Systems. Any ideas please e-mail me.

p.s. yes the women and children need any help from Welfare they can get or at this point the chldren would have third world dental care to match the third world policies of polygamy and autocratic control by leaders. Most of the women get the Child Tax Credits which can add up but is more than I ever had to get the necessities of life for children while I was there. Thankyou.

Hello folks Thank you Amanda for the excellent article, and to all of you for the discussion. Several people asked what could be done to help. I am with a group of concerned citizens in Creston and we are working with other groups and individuals to lobby the BC and Federal governments on this issue. If you are concerned and would like to take action, we encourage you write to the premier, the BC Education Minister Tom Christensen and to BC Attorney General Geoff Plante. They have received dozens of letters from our group, and other groups and individuals on this issue and have made no response so far. We believe that this is unacceptable, and need to increase the pressure so they will take action. Also, the Atira Women's Resource society is in the process of setting up a trust to aid women and children leaving Bountiful. If you want to contribute to this trust you can send a cheque to: Atira Women's Resource Society Bountiful Trust #204 - 15210 North Bluff Road White Rock, BC V4B 3E6 To find out more about ATIRA go to: www.atira.bc. Jane commented in her interview that she was in a good position to leave because she only had one child at home and could make a living on her own. So many women in the community do not have this and with many children it is overwhelming to consider leaving. Hopefully this trust will be able to help give women and children more options.

We are living in the 21 Century are we not??? Even most mormans don't marry children or have more than one wife today. And most importantly men don't have sex with BABIES. A child is a child is a child. The liberals or the BCTF or whoever, need to look into this nightmare and truly consider what the hell are we doing giving money to these abusers in the name of religion. Education is a right not a privledge. Rape is still rape even in bountiful. How sad this makes me, that young boys are being abandon, again in the name of religion, so their fathers can have sex with all the young girls. I will pray for these young boys and girls that they will one day have peace from abuse and knowledge of the world outside of Bountiful.

I rarely ever indulge in threads, but I have to say this has been a very interesting read and has tugged me this way and that. While I agree that in many ways - such as in the brainwashing of the young and the tendency to visit harm on the non-believer - religion often presents a serious threat to personal freedoms; it is also true that without religion the ruling elites would devise (and have) other strategems to bend us to their will, such as with caste systems, aristocracies, and so on. We are most free from this potential scourge when freedom to choose from among religions is the rule, since this makes it difficult for only one to rule the roost, an occurrence which has usually resulted in disaster for the common man. Choice forces religions to adapt to changing times, to craft a belief system more suited to the needs of the follower living in changed times. Christianity has been particularly adept at doing this, and there are very few, I think, who would today accept the "literality" of the Bible as it was seen even 100 years ago. So how, then, do we deal with Bountiful, which embraces a non-christian religion? Do we let it compete in the theological marketplace? The brainwashing of children is not restricted to them alone, since I know more than one person who feels his/her life was nearly destroyed by zealously Christian parents. Many young girls of all creeds are forced into marriages which they later regret. How far can we go in protecting children from their parents? In the Doukhobour days, the argument was purported to be over public schooling, which the parents knew would be the end of their way of life and belief system. But schooling was just a political smokescreen. The real problem was that they were Commies, and just as was done in the 30's with the Commie Finns at Sointula, every dirty trick in the book was pulled on them by politicians schooled during WW 2 in how it was done to the BC Japanese. The reaction to all this was the Sons of Freedom. We are fast becoming like our neighbours to the South, quick to stomp upon the rights of others while chasing the will-o-the-wisp of moral purity. You can steal a man's life's savings and get a year in jail for it - if you're unlucky. Kill someone and you might get two-three years for it. But commit a sexual crime, or even be accused of one and you're in the soup, but good. And what I'm getting out of the above dialogue is primarily a recounting of sexual crime against young girls, for which some are willing to bring the heaviest of society's sanctions to stop. Some have recognised the threat to our freedoms that allowing the forceful shutting down of Bountiful by any means would bring, but in my opinion, show some reluctance to saying a definitive "NO" to it. Others, recognising the difficult path we've trekked on the way to feminine equality, see any threats to freedoms as remote at best and just roadblocks easily swept out of the way. Not so. Gaining freedom for a few at the expense of the many is a net loss, not a gain - one step forward and two steps back, as is now being realised regarding the recent ERA movement in the States. I once heard Dalton Camp, whose political savvy I always admired, say that "It's a lousy law that requires force to make it work". And so it seems to me that more creative - though less dramatic - solutions to the Bountiful problem should be sought. Perhaps the setting up of halfway houses for the "lost boys" and runaway girls from that community. Those women on welfare could be required to have interviews when sources of help could be made known to them, a problem mentioned above. If the unhappiness is as prevalent as stated in the messages above the word would spread. Should the "gentle persuasion" fail, perhaps it may then be time to bite the bullet and realise that many of us live in worlds we'd prefer not to, and which we feel - rightly or wrongly - we cannot or don't want to escape. We might have to concede that maybe many residents of Bountiful find their happiness where they can, just as we do. And just think, I wrote all that without saying a thing about Lyin Brian to C Gull.

Hi, Jack! Just because it is difficult to decide where to draw the line, and determine what the real motivations underlying action are (to stomp out "commies" or save child concubines), it does not mean we should let the community of Bountiful continue exploiting women and children. Yes, lets have the difficult discussions, but let us work to ensure that these individuals do have freedom of choice and religion -- it is obvious that right now they do not. Personally, I think many of our religious upbringings have caused us untold pain. No, we can't fix everything, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying!

Just in case there's some doubt, I believe that the religion of the people of Bountiful is wrong and bad. It is not unique in that - most religions are Patriarchal, many use or accept arranged marriages, most are ruled by a smaller group of older men, most support the power inequalities in society and so forth. Draw up your list of things you dislike and there is bound to be a religion somewhere that really likes it. Hinduism, for example, accepts those points above. However, the law should be based on the principle that adults can do whatever they want to as long as nobody gets hurt without their consent. If adults wish to enter into sadomasochistic relationships, or polygamous or polyandrous marriages that is nobody's business. So what the adults are doing in Bountiful is not the business of the state except where harm is happening. Who is being harmed? The young women coerced into arranged marriages, yes. The adult women in polygamous marriages - if there is harm it is by their consent and it's not the business of the state, unless you would like to argue that polygamy by its nature is oppressive to women. To what extent is it legitimate for the government to interfere in people's personal choices? A very small extent. How about in the right of parents to raise their children as they see fit? If "it takes a village to raise a child", do parents have any say in who's in that village? Or is it purely the business of the state to determine what values shsall be taught at private schools, what religious values are acceptable etc? There are laws being broken at Bountiful. Prosecute those breaking the laws, by all means. Private citizens can attempt to convert the people of Bountiful away from their religion if they wish, but the government cannot have any opinion in matters of religion. Or else tell me why the Hindus aren't in trouble? Bsst Samuel Wagar

Thank you Robyn and Sam for your thoughtful comments. It seems to me the only reasonable approach using the law`without launching a religious witch-hunt would be to focus entirely upon the "child bride" question, which appears to be a pretty straight-forward solution. However, how then would we deal with the many other such marriages which appear to be entirely informed and consensual, and which seem to have good outcomes? The obvious solution might be divorce counselling after a stated period, with a landing net provided. logical perhaps, but an opening of Pandora's Box to be sure.

Sam Wagar, 11/26/2004 6:23:11 PM, writes, using the words "polygamous" and "polyandrous" in line 10. The following definitions are taken verbatim from "The Heritage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language," (c) 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1975 by American Heritage Publishing Co., Inc. ~~~ polyandry: The state or practice of having more than one husband at a single time. polygamy: The state or practice of having more than one wife, husband, or mate at a single time. polygyny: The condition or practice of having more than one wife or female mate at a single time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy

You can all read Winston's view on life and stuff at www.sharethelight.ca Have a great day.

Now why would anyone in their right mind want to read Winston's views? So we can go and create another hell on earth?

Few women in the Edmonton area are gathering signatures in support of Jane's new life and to make the B.C. government accountable for their lack of intervention to stop abuse against women and children and for NOT enforcing our great Canadian law against polygamy and child abuse. Do you want to sign? please write to Virginia

If Jane was really as picked on as she says, why did she wait for seven years between her sixth and seventh children? Also she had just as much freedom 10 years ago as she has today, what took her so long to leave. She has been estranged from her husband almost as long as I have known her. So what is her point?

Note to Jancis Andrews, your claim to be one of the 7 women from Bountiful is a lie. I don't believe you have ever set foot in Bountiful. Have you? Your letter is disgusting & as fictional as your stories. You are demoralizing yourself by calling Bountiful a "cess pit" as you have never even come and communicated with the people yourself. Please provide the full list of the seven women and proof that they are from Bountiful.

Why don't all you wonderful, concerned and helpful people get off your computer, and go do something useful. No one in Bountiful or even in Canada needs help like the poor people who were hit by those terrible waves. Go make a donation, a big one, maybe sell everything you have and donate all of it to the ones who really need help. Better yet, go there and help them. They really need your devoted help and attention. Everyone in Bountiful has access to the help lines, and shelters that are out there. If I needed help I would ask for it. I was born and raised here. I have a college education, and so do alot of the people here. Anyone who is feally interested in helping the people, and not just jeering at them, should get to know at least one of the people first. Feel free to email me at

Thank you for listening.

I dearly love both Debbie and Jane. You both have taught me a lot about our way of life while I was small and even after I was married. You both were people I looked up to and respected. If you are so happy now that you have left, why don't you enjoy your life and stop spreading hatred among the family who really cares for you. This is hurtful. I still love you and pray you will be able to go on and truly be happy. Your little sister.

I was born, and raised a member of Bountiful and the FLDS church. I attended the private school and graduated after taking B.C.'s provincial exams. What the women and children of Bountiful really need is to give and receive kindness.

You might want to read Winston's views because you will find out straight from him just what he believes. That way you can stop believing the lies being printed. It boils down to, "If you want to know about me, ask me, not someone who hates me.

You might want to read Winston's views so you know just what he believes. The best way to get accurate information about a person is not from his enemies, or any newspaper.

In this article, by Amanda Euringer, she mentions Jane's daughter being a part of Warren Jeffs Salt Lake Community. Anyone who is familiar with this situation, knows that Warren Jeffs and his followers left Salt Lake in 1999, and are now located in Colorado City Arizona, Mancos Colorado, Eldorado Texas, and Creston British Columbia. This is one of many falsehoods in this article. If she could be so far off of the truth on this obvious detail, then you have a good idea how acurate she is on the rest of the story. Deb, on the other hand, is know far and wide for being fulls of Sh*&. She says she left the community in 1988, then how could she be an expert on it 17 years after she left. Everyone familiar with community know that before Deb left she lit her own house on fire with her own children in it. After she lit it on fire she called over to Winston Blackmore to come and help her get the children out. In the process of saving the children he severely injured his lungs. In a recent interview Deb even admitted that she lit her house on fire. She is someone who has been away from the communtiy for so long she doesn't know any first hand knowledge. Many reporters and newspapers won't even publish what she says anymore, they know she is riding a grudge, and she just trying to bring trouble to those still living there. I would like to see an article written that has facts. Not somebodies warped opinion.

I applaud the members of the Bountiful community who have had the courage to leave. Although they have met with much criticism, their heats lie in the right place. I am following your progress with the complaint. I have also read Dave Perrin's book telling Debbie Palmers life story and I found it mesmerizing and sad and a variety of other emotions all at once. I would at times forget I was reading a true story as so much of it is unbelievable. I have read Under the Banner of Heaven and found the history of the Fundamentalist Mormon church very interesting. If you have a read of that book, it is not hard to beleive Debbie and Jane's life story. Polygamy is against the law and I believe the laws of this country should take president over freedom of religion. If people are getting hurt, especially children, "my community", the genitles, need to step in. Adults have the option of choice, children do not! I have met a couple of women from Bountiful and found them to be the kindest, softest, warm hearted people you have ever met. While I disagree wit their chosen religious ideologies and they mine, they were people I enjoyed getting to know. They were people like you and me.What I cannot comprehend is how they could believe that I am basically evil and am not worthy of being "saved." They want us to respect them and yet because of their shelted upbringing, do not truely respect me and my gifts. I learned a lot from them. They too are brave women. They deserve the freedoms the rest of Canadians enjoy. Freedom to dress as they chose, freedom to chose our life partners, freedom to love, freedom to receive fundamental not fundamentalist education. Religion has no place in other BC schools, why is it ok in the Bountiful school.. Education is key. We should help to educate the women and young people of Bountiful about the realities of real life, real culture and then they will have more knowledge on which to be free to make their own choices. Knowledge is life long! I hope no one is offended at what I have written. I am a loving person no matter what people believe. I just don't like it when children are hurt, emotionally, physically, or mentally. Note to Jane's nephew I will come anytime and interview you and anyone else still living in Bountiful who would like to tell their story...trouble is, no one living there ever wants to tell their story. We all just want to make sure everyone is happy and healthy which is what you want as well. I would love to objectively report that and I am not a reporter.

I applaud the members of the Bountiful community who have had the courage to leave. Although they have met with much criticism, their heats lie in the right place. I am following your progress with the complaint. I have also read Dave Perrin's book telling Debbie Palmers life story and I found it mesmerizing and sad and a variety of other emotions all at once. I would at times forget I was reading a true story as so much of it is unbelievable. I have read Under the Banner of Heaven and found the history of the Fundamentalist Mormon church very interesting. If you have a read of that book, it is not hard to beleive Debbie and Jane's life story. Polygamy is against the law and I believe the laws of this country should take president over freedom of religion. If people are getting hurt, especially children, "my community", the genitles, need to step in. Adults have the option of choice, children do not! I have met a couple of women from Bountiful and found them to be the kindest, softest, warm hearted people you have ever met. While I disagree wit their chosen religious ideologies and they mine, they were people I enjoyed getting to know. They were people like you and me.What I cannot comprehend is how they could believe that I am basically evil and am not worthy of being "saved." They want us to respect them and yet because of their shelted upbringing, do not truely respect me and my gifts. I learned a lot from them. They too are brave women. They deserve the freedoms the rest of Canadians enjoy. Freedom to dress as they chose, freedom to chose our life partners, freedom to love, freedom to receive fundamental not fundamentalist education. Religion has no place in other BC schools, why is it ok in the Bountiful school.. Education is key. We should help to educate the women and young people of Bountiful about the realities of real life, real culture and then they will have more knowledge on which to be free to make their own choices. Knowledge is life long! I hope no one is offended at what I have written. I am a loving person no matter what people believe. I just don't like it when children are hurt, emotionally, physically, or mentally. Note to Jane's nephew I will come anytime and interview you and anyone else still living in Bountiful who would like to tell their story...trouble is, no one living there ever wants to tell their story. We all just want to make sure everyone is happy and healthy which is what you want as well. I would love to objectively report that and I am not a reporter.

I applaud the members of the Bountiful community who have had the courage to leave. Although they have met with much criticism, their heats lie in the right place. I am following your progress with the complaint. I have also read Dave Perrin's book telling Debbie Palmers life story and I found it mesmerizing and sad and a variety of other emotions all at once. I would at times forget I was reading a true story as so much of it is unbelievable. I have read Under the Banner of Heaven and found the history of the Fundamentalist Mormon church very interesting. If you have a read of that book, it is not hard to beleive Debbie and Jane's life story. Polygamy is against the law and I believe the laws of this country should take president over freedom of religion. If people are getting hurt, especially children, "my community", the genitles, need to step in. Adults have the option of choice, children do not! I have met a couple of women from Bountiful and found them to be the kindest, softest, warm hearted people you have ever met. While I disagree wit their chosen religious ideologies and they mine, they were people I enjoyed getting to know. They were people like you and me.What I cannot comprehend is how they could believe that I am basically evil and am not worthy of being "saved." They want us to respect them and yet because of their shelted upbringing, do not truely respect me and my gifts. I learned a lot from them. They too are brave women. They deserve the freedoms the rest of Canadians enjoy. Freedom to dress as they chose, freedom to chose our life partners, freedom to love, freedom to receive fundamental not fundamentalist education. Religion has no place in other BC schools, why is it ok in the Bountiful school.. Education is key. We should help to educate the women and young people of Bountiful about the realities of real life, real culture and then they will have more knowledge on which to be free to make their own choices. Knowledge is life long! I hope no one is offended at what I have written. I am a loving person no matter what people believe. I just don't like it when children are hurt, emotionally, physically, or mentally. Note to Jane's nephew I will come anytime and interview you and anyone else still living in Bountiful who would like to tell their story...trouble is, no one living there ever wants to tell their story. We all just want to make sure everyone is happy and healthy which is what you want as well. I would love to objectively report that and I am not a reporter.

If every thing is how Jane says it is in Bountiful then how come she stayed there so long? Is it because she didn't think she would have the money to survive, or is it because she knew that if she left when her kids where younger then none of her kids would have gone with her and she would have had a hard time getting them too.I am from Bountiful and I am also a plural wife I have three children and if I wanted to leave then I could whenever I wanted to. But I don't want to because I feel safe here, I love my husband and I have never been abused, nor do I know anyone who has been. Are you people so uneducated that you can only count to 15? Because that is not the age that most girls are married, unless they want to be married at age 15. Maybe you people should talk to someone that actually lives there and knows something about the place. Jane is a very demanding mother and person who wants people to do exactly what she says, but don't get me wrong I love her and have a lot of respect for her, but if I was married to her I don't know how I would survive.I was married at age 16 but that is only because I wanted to be.

If every thing is how Jane says it is in Bountiful then how come she stayed there so long? Is it because she didn't think she would have the money to survive, or is it because she knew that if she left when her kids where younger then none of her kids would have gone with her and she would have had a hard time getting them too.I am from Bountiful and I am also a plural wife I have three children and if I wanted to leave then I could whenever I wanted to. But I don't want to because I feel safe here, I love my husband and I have never been abused, nor do I know anyone who has been. Are you people so uneducated that you can only count to 15? Because that is not the age that most girls are married, unless they want to be married at age 15. Maybe you people should talk to someone that actually lives there and knows something about the place. Jane is a very demanding mother and person who wants people to do exactly what she says, but don't get me wrong I love her and have a lot of respect for her, but if I was married to her I don't know how I would survive.I was married at age 16 but that is only because I wanted to be.