Every journalist in the province has to be aware of the existence of the Tyee, even though the CanWest Global hegemony would like to pretend it's not there.

So, Keith, we know you're out there and probably reading. How about a rebuttal? Show us that you really are the quality journalist you pretend to be. Do you have anything to say in response...?

Keith was a damn good journalist at the Vancouver Sun for years. I chatted with him at a social event years ago, and he was clearly a bright, articulate, street-smart fellow.

When I read shoddy, half-assed slop written by him or any other contemporary journalist working for the Canwest Empire, I cannot help but wonder: did he get stupider over time, or is he merely all-too-aware of the financial consequences for him personally if he doesn't toe the company line?

Kudos to Mr. Malcomsen.

This type of careful analysis is very important, not just because it offers an alternative point of view but also because it is the kind of piece that definitely will 'help' folks like Mr. Baldrey to be more rigorous (ie. get their smarts back) in the future.

Anyone who thinks the BCTF isn't out of touch with economic reality, is himself/herself out of touch with reality. Many teachers haven't a clue about the economic conditions that are the engine for financing the education system in the first place. Maybe that includes sociologists who opine about finance.

The connection to 9/11 and the BCTF's ridiculous demands in 2001 is an example. 9/11 resulted in major economic dislocations that affected us all. But all that was lost on the BCTF.

The fact remains that the BCTF is deamanding way too much, on behalf of teachers!

It seems that the public service unions think that the taxpayer has a bottomless pit of money available just for their use.

Not!

I'm surprised Baldry, who is a political reporter, doesn't seem to understand what "political reality" is.

If everyone simply shrugged and walked away whenever someone told them to screw off because we mean business, it would be quite the world. No politics, just brute force.

In essence Baldry is saying the Liberal government has a majority so it can screw whoever it wants during it's mandate and you had better take it, or else.

Martin, you silly man, you know as well as anyone that the Liberals just announced a massive budget surplus and this is after cutting taxes for their wealthy supporters, gutting the social safety net and selling off the farm, not even to the highest bidder.

Perhaps you are uncomfortable talking about that big surplus. For one thing the surplus suggests there is indeed money that can be put into education and salaries.

However, we know and you know that surplus came directly from federal transfer funds including have-not dollars that kicked in after the Liberals gave away $2 Billion in taxes in 2001.

"Economic reality"?

Then why did Liberal MLAs get a pay raise following the May election?

Economic reality"? The only reality about this province's economy is that the Liberals have increased the debt dramatically, while 10s of thousands of workers have been fired or had their pay and benefits cut for the past five years while the rich continue to enjoy the accumilative benefits of those 2001 tax cuts.

hey martin if the government of b.c. can afford to give their rich friends billions in a tax break they can dam well afford to pay our teachers a decent wage and decrease the amount of kids in a class.

It cost me 250.00 per kid this year for bus and books, I can afford this but not everyone can, what about the working poor but you right wing nuts don't care about anyone but yourselves as you are nothing but spoiled brats sucking this planet for everything you can get.

Well hopefully you are young enough to reap the rewards of your greed, air pollution, global warming, no pension plans, owned by the americans etc...

If baldry does read the tyee then maybe he will get a refresher on what reporting used to be like in this province, instead of the poor ass kissing excuse we get from the likes of him palmer and leyne!

I must question if Martin knows for sure that the events of 9/11/01 really affected Canada, and British Columbia, to the extent that he implies.

It is widely known that in early 2001 the USA was in a financial recession that was almost over when the World Trade Centre was bombed by two aircraft. This sent the USA into a tailspin from which it still has not recovered. For Canada, there was a flirtation with recession in the summer of 2001, but the country and its financial situation was largely unaffected -- perhaps there was some influence here and there -- and since then Canada has been the best-performing economy in the G7.

Come on people, make up your minds. Either you agree with Will McMartin, who says that there is no budget surplus in reality, or otherwise you must agree with the Liberals that there is a big one.

I'm one of BC's public sector workers who got a net-zero contract in the last while. In fact, I did get a raise, because we gave back some non-monetary things that weren't valuable to most of us. The teachers should make the same sacrifices we did.

Some of these comments against the teachers remind me of an old Russian joke. A peasant was walking down a country road when he found a magic lantern. Upon the required rub, a genie appeared to inform him that any wish he had could be granted. The peasant thought a moment, then said, "You know, my neighbour has seven cows. . ."

The genie swiftly replied, "No problem! I can easily give you seven cows."

The peasant quickly stated, "No, no, no. I want you to kill my neighbour's cows."

If all we do as public sector workers and trade unionists is compete to see how much we can sacrifice to the fraudulent needs of the Liberal budgets, then we really are in trouble.

Martin, which do you believe? Big surpluses due to federal transfers or big deficits?

"A net 0-0-0 mandate is fine for the doctors and the nurses, why can't teachers realize this and move on?". This is a famous saying locally. What did the teachers get as a raise the last time a contract was imposed? 2.5% with another 2.5 and 2.5 UNFUNDED raise (I'm not even going to get into the stupidity of that Liberal Boondoggle)

Can anyone remember what the nurses or the doctors recieved as a wage bonus prior to this "net 0-0-0" mandate? Somewhere in the lines of 15 to 20% I think, certainly enough to ride out this 0-0-0 mandate

Now some redneck will use the old standby line "Look at all the time off you get!!" Yes, lets look at it. A sawmill employee with 10 years senority gets 6-9 weeks off per year. A firefighter gets more time off than a teacher, and most corporate office managers get 8 weeks off a year too. These people usually pull their children out of school for 2 or 3 weeks to take these holidays. Oh ya they also truly believe that education IS an ESSENTIAL service where no frigging union is gonna rob their child of an education.

What other retarded arguements do I hear? Hmmmm, the list IS long but the best one usually is "Lets think of the children shall we?". Apart from teachers, who else has the children first and foremost on their minds with regards to education? Administrators don't, they think of how to cram more non teaching work into a already filled day. School boards don't, they wonder how to keep most of the money on the top end rather than spending it at the classroom level (just look at the magnificient Vancouver School board office where they cut money from hot meals programs in the poorest schools)Trustees don't, otherwise this arguement wouldn't even be taking place (ie LARGE classroom sizes, children with special needs seeing a reduction in services)

1. A sawmill worker with 10 years seniority would love to have the job security that a 10-year teacher has.

2. Corporate office managers get 8 weeks off??? On what planet?

3. Agree about firefighter benefits. They are great. Recall, however, that every few weeks they have to put their life on the line for us.

The school system is fat with money, but if we have to cave in to unionists on the basis that government has a surplus, we are in big trouble.

In no way should public service unions hold the taxpayer to ransom.

Teachers are well paid with excellent benefits and do not need more.

The government doesn't micro-manage a lot of areas of our lives, why do you guys on the right want them micro-managing education instead of the professionals actually in education?

"The school system is fat with money...." Really? We don't even fund education on par with the average per student spending in the US. However, our students do a heck of a lot better on international tests. Obviously, it isn't school vouchers, increasing private sector involvment, or even just money that make schools a success. In my opinion, it is the teacher that makes all the difference.

Do you really want teaching to become a profession that becomes more and more of a "marginal" job. Go and ask a graduating class today if they think becoming a teacher is a good idea. They'll most likely laugh.

After spending $250 of my own money in September on crucial supplies (like scissors) for my students, I would be satisified if I just had a decent computer and printer on my desk to write report cards on. My school can't even afford the ink for teachers to print them out.

Lots of money? You are so, so wrong, but I am getting used to these bold, but ignorant statements made by some here.

As for Baldrey, I'm not surprised. The media has done a great job spinning for the BC Liberals. My favourite one is that the BCTF has not successfully negotiated a contract for the last 10 years or so. Not true. The BCTF had direct negotiations with the Glen Clark government that resulted in a settlement which was legislated into law. The BCPSEA, on the other hand, has been a joke. Gordon Campbell had to bail them out with direct money when school boards across BC balked at paying them for essentially doing nothing.

Believe me, things were better when things like class size and guarantees for services for children with special needs were in teacher contracts. If you have a child with a special need in our schools you'll know that to be true. That Baldrey speaks out both sides of his mouth on whether teachers should have any say on working conditions is merely unprofessional.

sdgreen states, "The school system is fat with money..." but neglects to support this contention.

I have been teaching in BC high schools since 1993, and the dough has always been scarce. Most of those years were NDP years, and they were not financial glory days, to say the least. The entire system struggles to cope on a fairly constant basis as we routinely search for ways to pinch yet another damn nickel.

Moreover, it can be said that there are no bad guys to be found at the administrative level or in the school board office, no one scooping up the dough to finance a luxury car lease or a Vegas convention for school principals or whatever.

No, the sad conclusion is that as a society, we have gotten pretty damn chintzy with the entire education portfolio. Let's try some real analysis, you neo-cons: how does per pupil funding, measured in constant dollars, compare over time? No other question is as relevant, yet none of the neo-cons want to answer it.

I have been in the labour force for 25 years. Half my time was spent in the private sector, and I have been a high school teacher for the other half. Every private sector business aims for an efficiency target. If one is too inefficient, profits - and eventually the business - go down the tubes. If one is too efficient, the customer suffers, and we have all seen examples of that from time to time.

Well folks, the latter condition prevails in the education business, where for better or worse the provincial government owns the monopoly. And guess what? That's right. The customer suffers here too.

"After spending $250 of my own money in September on crucial supplies (like scissors) for my students,". Doubt this statement very much. Heard it before from other teachers. Probably not true.

Nemesis, why is it so unbelievable that BC School Boards have slashed classroom supply budgets? Or that teachers such as Chris H have resorted to paying for classroom supplies themselves? Where are the 'facts' to back up your opinion/assertion?

You win this week's prize for LEAST QUALIFIED RESPONSE. Enjoy the honour.

Nemesis:

When my mother retired, the accumulation of learning materials she'd purchased with her own money and accumulated over the years filled her one-car garage. That's a fact. I saw it with my own eyes. You can call me a liar, but you'd be full of sh*t. You need a kick in your shrunken nuts for acting like such an *******. All you've got for a talking point is calling people liars? Weak, so very, very weak, even for you. If you've got an ounce of self-respect you'll apologize for that kind of crap-tastic excuse for an argument.

Money within the education system is wasted. Just look at the enormous top heavy school boards, look at the hundreds, likely thousands of feel good meetings, look at the number of so-called agencies that deal with education, look at the number of 'let us look at the curriculum again meetings', look at the inefficient school maintenance and building programs, and the list goes on.

If we took good deal the money that the the above consumes, I bet that school books and other supplies could be had.

The cost of education is escalating, why? Where is the money going if such is not applied to the class room? Clearly there is something wrong. The government and property owner is putting more and more in, but the demands keep coming.

Is the current school district system still valid? Why do we need a College of Teachers? Even the BCTF spends a large amount of members money, should they? Are there better ways of providing learning resources to students other than text books? (hard/soft covered books cost is high).

I think that if the education system were to be budget zero based and re-budgeted on essential things (including teacher wages), libraries (if really required), and other resources could be more than adequately funded.

I think too, there needs to be a re think on the special needs students, not with standing orders of the Supreme Court, to look at better options.

Base education is a necessity, are all the K-12 courses currently offered, necessary?

"libraries (if really required)"

Nothing sez book learnin' like not having books!

"Are there better ways of providing learning resources to students other than text books? (hard/soft covered books cost is high)."

Perhaps we could just beat the learning into them?

you make a lot of accusations sdgreen but keep in mind that they are based your opinions - opinions that are not basedo on any fact. why is it sdgreen that you hate education and educators so much? there's so much animosity in your posts that it make me wonder what your problem is.

My daughter Ale teaches in Vancouver and I, too, have seen her buy from her own pocket stuff for her classes. My wife is constantly putting together boxes for our daughter when we have extra pencils, etc. We are always in the look out for organizations like the BC Reptile Society (they take snakes to school!) or institutions like Ballet BC, and the Vancouver Opera and many others that visit not only Vancouver schools but schools in the interior. As cash strapped as the school boards are they would be even worse off if it weren't for the volunteer work of the teachers themselves and the free contribution of organizations like Ballet BC, the Vancouver Opera and the Vancouver Symphony (and many more). Does sdgreen really question the validity of libraries in schools?

Why argue with these guys. Their being disingenuous. They want to destroy the public school system by starving it, creating more of a 'market' for private schools, (health care anyone?) and then when parents are too afraid to send their kids to public school because it has become so inferior, they will offer a voucher system, swoop down, sell all the public school land assets, developed educational materials, etc and pocket the money. Then after a few years of a full voucher system, pull that too. You will then have NO public education and NO vouchers. And, most children not educated. Hard to believe the Western World has come to this. But, it's not a 'done deal' yet. "The times they are a changing..."

They're, not their.

Well said, redrivergirl, "disingenuous" is exactly the right word for these guys.

They know exactly what they want and that is to make a marketplace out of absolutely everything...with "all items for sale" including dedicated teachers, like Stump's Mom, stamped with a "marked down" price tag.

Thanks Stumpy. Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment. BTW; Sdgreen followed your silly rant with a post that is about as right on as it gets, but the BCTF would never even considered a change to the current system b/c it would wipe them out.

Stumpy huh? See ya on the fields I guess.

SDGreen may have a point, but it's not the point I called you on. Calling people liars when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary is about as respectful as the marker purposefully hacking the arm on a huck donchathink?

Why should I treat your comments with respect when you don't extend the same courtesy to others? Bad spirit.

"but the BCTF would never even considered a change to the current system b/c it would wipe them out."

Oh look, unsupportable assertation based solely on personal opinion. At least you're consistent.

Disagree if you please, but look at how your opponents do it, with reasonableness and respect (mostly), not blanket statements and innuendo. Try to follow suit. Good advice for everyone, including (especially) me.

Of course, I think you're just here to kill some time by baiting others who have a genuine wish to discuss and debate. How pathetic is that?

Stump, I think you've unintentionally touched on sdgreen's real bitch.

They banned the strap.

Nemesis, I dare you... no wait, I double-dog-dare you to back up your assertions with evidence.... ya big sissy...

Hey, this callous, cheap, name-calling stuff is really fun! I'm thinking of switching....

The point is that nobody wants to do the real stuff and determine the real needs of education against that which is unreal. The Left and the Right have different solutions. Redrivergirl is afraid of 'privatisation', but that is likely not even in the cards.

The absolute issue is how do we provide 'non-partisan' education of good quality at least cost?

What stuff now being done is really window dressing and what is not?

Education is not a bargaining point between the left or right, such must be a common goal of all. It is our future, it is our childrens future.

But we must get rid of the crap, including BCTF crap, and get on with it!

sdgreen:

I'd really like to know what you consider the "window dressing" to be. Education practices have changed a great deal in the last 50 years. We continue to do educational research to improve teaching methods and to reach children that were mostly discarded in the past. Schools have taken on a larger role and are now responsible to ensure that students are socially responsible inside and outside the classroom. Undoubtedly, we have taken on and are doing more than ever before. But, there is very little that is "window dressing." No teacher has the time for that.

Nemesis:

Go ahead and call me a liar if you'd like, but most teachers I know go into their pocket for the neccessities. I probably average about $500 a year on supplies that I pay from my bank account. I have heard from teachers that spend thousands. My classroom gets $100 year (fundraised by parents) to buy things, but that is all. Our school supply budget buys each child 3 pencils for the year, crayons, some minimal Art supplies, and the rest goes mostly to photocopy paper and related costs. Sometimes the Board finds "extra" money to fund projects which helps the school buy new math resources. It is not a constant. There is no way you can say that teachers do not spend their own money on teaching resources. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

All this talk of teachers' wages has me reminiscing about my youth. Ah, how Pater and I valued our time poolside, sipping daquiris and checking our blue chip stock prices, while Mother brought home a primary teacher's pay packet, so stuffed with money that we were the envy of some undeveloped countries.

Of course, we were not without our tribulations. The servants were a light-fingered lot, the jet boat was notoriously prone to breakdowns, and the government's tight-fisted approach to teachers' salaries meant that Father could never realize his one true dream. He died a broken man, never having owned a professional sports team... not even a piddling Arena football squad.

And people wonder why I continue to barrack for reasonable remuneration for teachers!

SDGreen:

Are you seriously suggesting that libraries and books aren't integral to learning? I hope not, but that's what I'm getting from your comments.

What are you going to provide in their place? Computers and Google? Can you point to any data I could check out that would show the availability of those resources negates the need for hard-copy texts and a place to store them? I'm thinking especially of smaller children, who love to browse the shelves looking and learning at a variety of books on a variety of subjects.

Stump observed...

Of course he is. There is a segment of the population that never uses the library. Therefore, libraries are a waste of tax dollars. The private sector (e.g. Chapters) provides access to reasonably priced books. Private booksellers are also open later, and have more locations. Also, think of the tax savings if we closed ALL libraries.

Those who do not like libraries can also rely on Canwest's "Raise-a-Reader" campaign for their children.

Stump, are you seriously advocating wasting money for the public good?

Tell me you are joking. My money could be better put to use in my pocket so that I may buy a "People" magazine if I choose.

Give your head a shake! We do not need intellectual "elite" in this province messing everyingthing up in this province with all that readin' and crap.

hey moat can you afford all the books in Chapters, if you have an iterest in something not the latest seller do you expect to find it at Chapters?

Is the fifteen year old kid researching a career going to find the information at a big box book store. Not bloody likely, I would rather have my tax dollars go to libraries then el gordos web portal, what did he waste there oh right 24 million.

Would you rather give big tax breaks to rich foreign corporations to exploit our resources and contaminate our environment then support a library where our kids can have access to books, not just the little rich b!tches whose mommy and daddy don't pay any taxes, who can afford to buy books and send their kids to private schools.

You do explain one thing that I have often wondered about, are people so selfish and greedy that they would rather have a couple dollars to spend on themselves then support the local kids whose parents can't afford to buy a library? I guess they are as you seem to be.

I think we as a society are judged by how we treat the poor kids and less fortunate.

Ursus wondered...

Sorry ursus, I used the weak rhetorical device of sarcasm in a careless manner. We are actually on the same “page.” Read my post again carefully.

I guess we are just so used to some of the drivel that comes out of a couple of people that post on this board that it would not seem unusual that some people would think this way. The user pay way!

I do shop at Chapters, but I also love the library.

Cheers!

maybe if we weren't giving the rich and the corporations such a free ride we could easily afford libraries. When mulgooney got into power corporations were paying 41% of taxes in Canada, when he left they were only paying 14%, and it has been going down since.

Can't prove it but I suspect it goes like this, first the politician sets up an offshore bank account then a large sum of money is put into account, the corporation gets their way. Look at b.c. for a good example, oh yes and the media talking heads start telling us why it is good for us peons. For this they get to keep their jobs. Probably closer to truth then fiction.

Hasn't anyone else ever wondered why politicians do like chretin who campaigned against nafta then as soon as he gets elected he signs the very deal he had been badmouthing.

Paid off? It is my opinion he was well paid for his efforts, why else would he do it.

sorry Moat too used to these neanderthals like re and nemisis spewing their stupidity.

urus,

No apology needed! Keep on rocking in the free world! And ignore those guys, they just need a hug.

We should set up a "neo-con" blog just for them. I would contribute $2 per month, for their own blog, just to be rid of them.

Think about it!

Education is extremely important. The way these disputes are recycled suggests to me that we will continue to debate around rhetorical political constructs, and not get close to where we MUST be for education to be both functional and productive.

I know that this sentiment is likely not going to be well received, but I believe the teacher's are going to need to seriously rock the boat this time around if we are to expect any movement toward meaningful solutions.

When I went to school in Saanich, every so often there would be a major fist fight in the farmer's field. Almost the entire school would show up. The administration and teacher's were aware of it, but would not call the police.

The fight would go ahead, with a winner and a loser beiing decided. Calm would exist around the school for some time afterward, because we got a result we could understand and live with.
Some people were not pleased with the outcome, but nearly everyone accepted it, because it was dealt with out in the open. It wasn't a pretty thing, but it was something we could all deal with.

The present level of 'goat-talk' is not satisfying.

I don't hear parents talking about the issues surrounding their children's education. Everyone is so polite it is almost disconcerting. The teacher's don't say much about the issues to the parents. We are all so disconnected from this important discussion, yet I know the parents have opinions on the issue, the teacher's have opinions on the issue, many of the children have opinion on the issue.

A student teacher at my daughter's school (grade 11) apparently told the students that the problem with the education system was all Campbell's fault. At first when I heard this, I was angry that the teacher would use this opportunity for politics. Later I thought, maybe this is where this has to go to put some life into the debate.

I think we need to sort this out once and for all, and saving money in the budget ALONE, will not solve this, it will only be a temporary 'stay'.

I would have liked the teacher's to stick to issues other than wages so at least we could get at the discussion relating to the classroom, the cirriculum etc. (but that is easy for me to say because it isn't MY living.

Robbins considered....

Great post. However, when teachers do (through the influence BCTF) get involved with issues of social justice, the values of the parents and the community at large can come into conflict. Should the teacher be challenging these?

Every teacher has a bias, but to teach "values" through formal lessons is a dangerous game. It was ok that your daughter's student teacher brought the issue of government policies into the classroom if he declared his bias and did not expect the students to support him/her. Students who disagree should even be rewarded, as long as they support their arguments. I myself, remember being a "stick-it-to-the teachers" Vander Zalm supporter. My teachers had a surprising level of patience. Unfortunately, not all teachers can support an "open idea" classroom.

However, if you want to get into ideas of curriculum, we need to seperate wage demands. Teachers have been fighting against standardized testing and crowded classrooms, but their arguments have been falling on deaf ears.

Standardized testing is the government's lazy way of enforcing "measurable curriculum". Parents should demand that their children learn about how the manage an RRSP or how credit card interest rates work.

But where do we start?

The issue of teachers' wages has become so big because that is the way that the media has decided it should go. I have been to the last two Annual General Meetings of the BCTF. Sorry to say, but the wage increase truly is #3 on the list of priorities. I know some of you will never believe it, but we put our students first. I have never heard a teacher say that he/she wants smaller class sizes or more support for students because it will lessen their workload. I have, however, heard teachers talk of how such things would result in better conditions for our students.

My ex-husband is a pulp mill worker. He makes between $80 - $90k a year. He has his Gr. 12 diploma. He works 4 on/4 off. He gets 6 weeks vacation + another 2 wks. supplemental. He gets bank time (paid time off). You still want to tell me that I get more time off than he does??? We worked it out. He gets almost half the year off yet makes $20 - $30k more than I do with my 5 yr. degree. He comes home from work and he leaves the mill behind. I have parent-teacher interviews in the grocery store, parents phone me at home, and I do a few hours of schoolwork every night. I prepare materials, read up on the latest literature, and take courses in the summer. And yes, I DO spend my own money on supplies for my classroom. Why do you think they have Teacher Appreciation days at Staples? It's to sucker all of us in to buy even more supplies than we would do without the discount!!

The media spouts off with lies or half-truths. They swallow the Fiberal propaganda and try to convince the public to believe them. Jinny Sims (BCTF president), on the other hand, acts with class as she smiles and tells the real facts. Yes, there is a lot of wasted money in education but that happens at the top. Why blame teachers for that? The true facts are: class sizes are larger; students are sharing textbooks, readers, and computers because there aren't enough; there are less supports for special needs students (teacher and teacher assistant time); school libraries are closed because teacher-librarian time has been cut. These are the facts. Anyone with eyes who walks into a school can see it. But you will also see children and teachers smiling because the teachers still go the extra mile to do the best to ensure their students receive the best education possible. Just what, pray tell, have Gordon Campbell and Shirley Bond and even the media done to do to promote education???????????????? NOTHING!!!! All they do is demoralize the teachers who are unhappy with their job situation but still doing an EXCELLENT job of doing it!!!

Here is an excerpt from http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/
on their hiring practices.

Only The Close Minded Need Apply

GoSmallYoungMan
AspersonVille

Scott in Montreal has stumbled upon something extremely revealing about the editorial policy of the Canned West (not)Global Media Empire.

Specifically, here is what those not-so-magnificent AsperSons want in an Editorial Writer for the Ottawa Citizen:

"The successful applicant should be an elegant writer with a commitment to the principles of small government and individual freedom."

The silver lining in this very ominous dark cloud given this chain's market hegemony in many Canadian locales?

Guess this means they will soon start going after the size-inflated, freedom-suppressing Bush Administration, or at very least the Canadian representative of said Administration .

.

spedteacher: I would be very interested to know in some modest detail what an average weak of work is for you in real terms. I get nine to three, but the other bona fide things you do per week, as reasonably as you can assess these.

I would assume for this that you are an example of a hard working committed teacher. I would also like your comments about the amount of time a teacher who you feel is less committed as a professional puts into an average work week. Please include any extra-cirricular activites as part of this, as well as marking etc. (Construct it like a legal bill with hours for marking etc). Add in time for report cards which I presume (where applicable) is 4 times per year. So the time applicable to one report court would be (generally) divided by 12 weeks (30.5 days per month less statutory holidays.

I believe the average teacher salary is around $55,000. Average lawyer $72,000. I believe teacher's eat lunch so what is our base-a five hour day plus the additional work?

Also, is there any chance we could work out a poll that you conduct-in order to find out how teacher's see cirriculum? Are there any 3 r's left? Do they believe in report cards? Testing? What percentage thinks what--

Perhaps the bloggers could help you define what questions to ask the teachers for some insight into how they see the world.

Afterall, they are the ones in front of the kids.

spedteacher: given your comments, it sounds like you hate teaching (I don't blame you, so would I). This is a free country: get another job that is more financially rewarding, with fewer frustrations, and give up the candidacy for beatification.

Your ex-husband's taxes, and that of the pulp mill company, pay your salary, and support the rest of the school system too. Why are we spending more and more money in the education system on fewer and fewer students, and yet you're still complaining? Will the demands for more money into the system ever cease?

Also, being a pulp mill worker is a mind-withering experience of tedium and routine. Your ex-husband's employer pays him so well in order to buy labour peace. Pulp mills are so mechanized they can afford to pay the few that are left big bucks to keep the rollers rolling.

So: even though you might make less than him, and it's annoying that you do -- count yourself lucky that you are in a challenging environment where you have to use your mind.

Martin,
That logic isn't making too much sense. It would seem to imply that doctors (who are in perhaps an even more challenging environment) should make less than teachers, and others (say, sorters in a lumber mill) should be making more.

Hmmmmm.

Also remember that we teachers pay taxes as well, and we don't get to write off supplies (and personal items) as expences. I don't mind paying my share of taxes, but I get a little miffed when I see people making a lot more money than I am and not paying as much tax because of "write offs".

Okay-spedteacher, I calculated average taxes per student-capital costs 20 year lifspan, administration-custodial-fix-up, some other costs-and got down to a per student in classroom amount and allocated 50% of the net amount remaining from the calculation and was able to pay teachers who performed after school work (teams-drama etc) and I am able, at a classroom size of 30, to pay that teacher (including medical and dental) $64,000 per year. I have through some other mystical alchemy (otherwise make it up as you go) determined that your less ambitious teacher who does nothing after school should get 83.334% of that $64,000 or $53,333 per year inclusive of medical and dental, and all other funded benefits. The average of these two numbers is $58,667 inclusive of all the benefits. Each ESL student (because many families are paying more to be educated here) would provide that teacher with an additional $750 per year.

My daughter Veronica's grade 4 teacher at Bramblewood Elementary Ms. Kramer, had five or six ESL students, and I think 32 students in her classroom. Her top pay if she did work after school (I am not sure how much is done after school in elementary), but in any event--
would be about $73,000. No after school work for bottom scale about $60,000. (Also no professional days).

The teacher receiving the $64,000 top base pay would be required to perform some after school function all year round to merit this amount (according to DR. Leary's formula). If this after school function were for one half of the year than the teacher would be paid the $58,667.

A teacher would have to perform some bona fide after school activity (under the ROBBINS/Leary formula) at least in one of every three half years, or go get busy doing another job.

A new teacher would be eligible for the ROBBINS/Leary formula after three full years of service.

Naturally, adjustments would have to be made to accommodate someone like Mr. Martin at Heritage Woods Secondary who coaches the basketball team and practices like 4 or 5 times per week. His ambition is excellence and his pay ought to reflect this ambition in my opinion.

This formula reasonable considers all of the elements of costing, funding, capital costs leaving $10 per student to fund the Ministry.

I did the calculations on the corners of the Coquitlam Now newspaper-so they are sketchy-but sometimes these one offs get closer than you think.

A good analytical piece, slightly flawed by the weak concluding reference to Keith as the "namesake" of Long John). The late singer was John BALDRY; the journo is Keith BALDREY.

For those interested, I love my job.

Let's see ... my typical day ...

I arrive at school around 8:00 a.m. I spend the time before the bell answering teachers' questions or preparing for the day.

This time of year my schooltime is spent typing reports / assessing students / preparing schedules / training teacher assistants / entering students into computer programs, etc. Special education teachers have so much more paperwork to do these days + the classroom teachers need more support and we have less time to give.

There is not enough exempt staff in my small town to cover playground supervision so I have to do duty once a week (Recess or after school). Without job action, it's 2x/week.

Recess is 15 min. long. I'm usually answering questions, etc. Sometimes parents come in and I talk to them. Once in a while I get to actually have a warm cup of tea :o)

Lunch is 45 min. long. 10 min. out of my lunch is spent administering meds to students. I rarely am able to eat all of my lunch in time due to more questions / consultation with teachers.

I have had meetings every day after school. Dismissal is at 2:30. The meetings are usually over by 4:00 - 4:30. These are School-Based Team meetings where students are referred to Learning Assistance, etc. I prepare for them, run the meetings, and do the paperwork/filing required afterward. Although this is after school, my attendance is a "must". Soon the SBT meetings will not be happening as frequently (down to once a week) but then I have time for other meetings :o)

I am usually home by 5:00-5:30 p.m. If I've gone to the grocery store on my way home, I've probably had a quick parent-teacher interview. I get calls at home too. I have time to do all that parent "stuff" and then it's back to a few hours of schoolwork by 10:00 or so.

I also spend time each day reading emails, etc. in order to try to keep up with all the latest research in spec. ed, get new ideas, etc.

In a few weeks, volleyball season starts. Then I have to squeeze in two practices per week + 3 games. All of that is volunteer time.

Unlike many of my collegues, I don't go into school on weekends. I tend to do my typing, etc. at home on the weekends to give more time to my son. And yes, I make sure that my son has enough of my time too. I stay up until past midnight every night to ensure that.

Please let's not forget that I pay taxes too. I also spend my own money on supplies for my classroom. You can see my name mentioned in an upcoming article about classroom motivators in Parents Magazine in fact lol. Most of the books/puzzles/games for in my classroom were bought by me.

Getting a raise is not the biggest issue in this job action for me. I knew I would never become a millionaire as a teacher. I chose the love of my job over riches :o) But I have bills to pay and a child to raise too. And how am I going to keep buying treats for my students and materials for my classroom if I don't get a raise????? I'm sure Shirley Bond isn't going to provide those "extras" out of her pocket lololol.

Thank you Spedteacher-"Now that's what I'm talking about."

What's with that Shirley Bond anyway? Every scrum she faces is the same. She regurgitates pre-approved talking points in every scrum as though an original thought is completely beyond her. The Liberals should just train a parrot to occupy her post. At least the plumage would be more colourful. And those dead eyes... guess who knows they're dissembling with every response? Too sad.

Jinny Sims is only slightly better, but at least there's some life to her reponses and she doesn't try to dodge questions with that Mom and apple pie folderol that any voter with half a brain can see right through.

Shirley Bond was the ChairPerson of our school district before going into provincial politics. She is very sensitive about her lack of post-secondary education. She needs another word for "disappointed" don't you think? It's funny but she was concerned about large class sizes and supports for special needs students back then. Our school district even adds funding to those supplied by the Ministry in order to at least attempt to provide supports for these students. When Shirley was on our Board they used to complain about the funding formula and how it's unfair to those school districts north of Hope. It seems that the move to Victoria changed her a little to say the least. Shirley Bond spouts out the rhetoric fed to her by the Liberals. She was chosen for her posts on Cabinet because she will blindly follow where Gordo leads. She tends to blame school boards for the faults of the Liberal government and spouts out inaccurate stats.

Jinny Sims, on the other hand, handles herself with grace. She isn't doing the namecalling game. She relates accurate stats. And for those who would deny that, sorry .. I'm in the school system and I see that she is telling the truth. Jinny Sims is giving teachers back their pride in their profession!!!!

Sorry Sped but I think you may be wrong about that last point. In fact I'm finding while spending time coaching in the community these days that most people respect teachers but can't stand the union and especially Jinny Sims, who they feel is far too glib and arrogant. I say she's giving teachers a bad name and teachers would be far better off with a union that kept their noses out of politics.

I think what Stump is saying is interesting. I would like to see a more vigorous scrum on the news. Some uncomfortable moments etc. These journalists in the scrum can really let you have it if they want to and the producers will go with it. Personally, I think I could draw both these ladies out in 10 minutes of discovery (unedited).

You have to provoke them, and get them off balance so they depart from the rhetorical, talking head drivel and get them angry and or defensive enough that they go off script and start coughing up that second layer bias, or inconsistency. The news has gone Louis Pasteur, we are not going to see it, so the teacher's should remake the news in their own image as it were.

We will never really know what the Minister's position is until we Sternalize them in a Q and A, but that really good stuff stopped some time ago.

That's why I think the teacher's should bust it up, (and I am not taking a side), but the government will never put forward a real debate.

It is only when things get really nasty and desperate can you peel away this passive aggressive political stuff and get a real debate.

If there is no deal that is workable and is understood than I think the teacher's should seriously consider breaking the law. This isn't street racing or beating a 19 month old child to death, or beating a gay man for 30 minutes.

This is just legislation by a government that sort of cheated to get a majority anyhow, from an establishment that is generally disconnected from the people (voting is declining rapidly), by a judicial system that I think coordinates with politico's to a much greater extent than we could ever know, so breaking back to work legislation given all of this, is sort of like jaywalking when you really think about it. It's a lot of hype from authority with no real crediblity to support that authority. That's when you test the authority. It's fragile in my opinion.

If the government was really about children they wouldn't be pulling crap like not mentioning Sherry Charlie anymore out of respect for the Indian tribe that helped get her murdered. Please sell crazy somewheres else.

I think the teacher's should test this legislation. Before there is any legislation back to work, the teacher's Federation should consider a class action with students as the Plaintiffs (their parents Ad Guardium Litem) with the cause of action that the kids aren't getting an education, and the opportunity to get a proper education is being frustrated by these pre-emptive government back to work efforts. The class action would take some time to work its way through the courts, ensure that some of the pleadings suggest back to work is unconstitutional etc. and see how many kids parents want a piece of the class action. Any fines that might be forthcoming following the legislation vis-a-vis the Labour Relations Board stuff (which is lower decision stuff) could be argued or negotiated as invalid owing to the outstanding nature of the primary litigation preceeding the legislation, or in the alternative that the LRB is funded by the government and therefore bias etc. etc.

This would create an entirely new dynamic in this scenario. Stop the kids as hostages excuse and let everyone see a little moxy.

Not that I'm defending Keith Baldrey, but this article's pretty thin on analysis really.

Leave your racist crap our of your rants, Robbins.

What an interesting thread--and it's carrying on for so long, too. I'm glad to see some discussion concerning the issues of teacher compensation and workload rather than the usual teacher-hater/teacher-defender rhetoric. I'm a teacher of ten years experience who quit heavy industry after fifteen years of pretty mind numbing work. I could go on about how much it took to earn my two degrees, how hard I work, and on and on. But, I went into teaching with my eyes mostly open and still enjoy the daily interaction with the kids. But I'm really getting tired of being sh*t on. I have three important points to make.

First, since I am paid a yearly salary (it is only divided up into ten months for payroll purposes) the faster I get my job done the more money I make per hour. I work about 1500 hours per year and most of those I work at about twice the pace of my old co-workers down at the mill. So, I would like to be paid by the hour. This would elimenate the bitching over how little time teachers spend working and allow an easy comparison of compensation to other occupations. Also, it would let me slow down and reduce my stress load. If work piles up, call me in on overtime. Staff meeting, overtime. IH&S meeting, overtime. Report cards, overtime. Do you start to get the picture?

Second, in spite of yearly salary "increases" of 0, 1/2, 1, 0, 0, 2, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, and a roughly twenty percent increase in class size, we "nasty" teachers have not struck and closed a school in more than ten years.

Third, the BCTF is the public school teachers of BC. An 80% turnout for an 88.4% strike mandate should make that very clear. It's also one of the most democratic unions I've ever belonged to.

You are right on the money, Uncle Jack!!! Ohhhh we'd all be rich if we got paid by the hour, wouldn't we??

Teachers in my school district went out on strike in 1989. We gave up a raise to keep class sizes down and ensure supports for special needs students back then. Hmmm it seems like that was for nothing. And people wonder why teachers have finally gotten mad enough to do something about it??

I have been to BCTF AGMs. The discussion that goes on before anything is passed is amazing. During this job action, the BCTF Exec. has made the committment that there will be no decisions made without first hearing from the membership. That means if there is any deviation from the job action plan outlined to members, (among a number of other issues), teachers will vote on it first. The Exec. will not be making the decisions. Teachers will be. How can people still say that the BCTF doesn't speak for teachers??

Martin-people overuse the words racist and rant. The mother of the murdered girl did not want Sherry Charlie to go to that Indian band. The coordinator who implemented the entire thing was the wife/girlfriend of the man charged with the murder. This is a statement of fact. You attempting to tell me what to write or what not to write will not take away from this statement of fact. That native indian band in my opinion was complicit along with the government in that child's death.

My so-called rant is actually moderate hyperbole to underscore a point.

I would ask you not to tell me what to write. I am certain that the Tyee has provision for this. Besides, I am one-eighty native on my mother's side and I am also very proud of much of the work that our native's have done with improving their culture including many tribes/towns that are alcohol and drug free.

That little girl was murdered and the band was partly responsible and that is my opinion. I don't care if you don't like it.

Not solving the teacher's situation properly is not murder per se, it is severely hurting (assaulting) students ability to get the best education we can give them for tax dollars.

(I hope that makes it easier to understand).

Sped; If you've been to AGM's you've undoubtedly noticed how the 'Teacher's Viewpoint' faction controls the agenda and railroads process. Nothing democratic about that. You've also noticed that this group is far more radical than the others, making them as far left as the Cope Classic freaks on Vancouver council. Do you really think that they genuinely represent most teachers? Not a chance. Most teachers are not very political, and many don't even realize just how political their 'leaders' are.

Nemisis-If a strike were permitted and your sense of things is correct, wouldn't we eventually find this out. I know my older brother taught for 35 years in Victoria, at schools of varied socio-economic background, and he is very conservative in the sense that he felt he was only slightly underpaid, felt that teacher's generally complained too much, and had little difficulty with 30+ students (few if any ESL).

He told me years ago, that he refused to enter into discussions in the staff room about BCTF stuff. When he retired 500 people came to his party including the Courtnall boys who my brother had been 'like a father' to.

Here is someone who is oldddddd school but was/is respected by many and he wanted nothing to do with the BCTF.

How many other teachers are out there who feel the same way?

If the BCTF would let me telephone their members lists (they can prepare the questions)
I would conduct the poll anonymously to the respondents (telephone numbers only) for 'in-kind' services (a write off).

We could compare those results to the vote results. This would independently prove or disprove unanimity. No guts no glory.

Oh, I would present a similar offer to the employers regarding parents, whose telephone numbers can be culled from data base.

"Do you really think that they genuinely represent most teachers? Not a chance."

Nemesis, no doubt in your haste to inform us, you made a couple of typos. No sweat. We all do it. I fixed it for you.

"Do you really think the provincial Liberals' genuinely represent most British Columbians? Not a chance."

You're welcome.

"He told me years ago, that he refused to enter into discussions in the staff room about BCTF stuff. When he retired 500 people came to his party including the Courtnall boys who my brother had been 'like a father' to."

So, either 500 people respected your brother without knowing his politics, since he didn't discuss them much, or recognized that disagreeing with someone needn't mean you have to ostracize them, or maybe all 500 really did toe the same political line as him. Whatever, but the last option seems the least likely.

Just because I come to a party to celebrate your achievements doesn't mean I share all your viewpoints. That's quite a leap of logic and I'm afraid it doesn't hold up.

"If the BCTF would let me telephone their members lists (they can prepare the questions)
I would conduct the poll anonymously to the respondents (telephone numbers only) for 'in-kind' services (a write off)."

You do know that listed phone numbers can be used in a 'reverse look-up' to find out who a person is, and where they live?

I doubt many people would be very thrilled by an organization they belonged to handing out personal information to a pollster, for any reason.

As I posted elsewhere the real tragedy for teachers is having an apparatchnik within the BCTF that is hopelessly welded to the NDP.

Thus any complaints teacher's have be it legitimate or otherwise is dismissed as nothing more than political posturing on behalf of the NDP.

So perhaps a more fitting headline would be: "BCTF muffs credibility test" and I write this as someone whose father was President of a teachers local up in the interior of BC during the Socred restraint era.

While it is impossible for me to side with teachers on the "issues" they have here... I sure as hell can't accept anything that Baldrey has to offer.
He is little more than a Liberal hack. As ursus said, he's a "talking head". Brings to mind Max Headroom.
Nobody in the press wants to expose the fact that Baldrey's wife was hired by the Liberals during their previous term to act as a scribe on one their commitees. No big deal except her pay was very decent for the task, and there were more than ample people already hired by the government as scribes available.
Does that mean that in buying Baldrey's loyalty, he might be nicer to Gordo????
I would wonder, but my head can't handle the strain of being in doubt on this one.
Yup. He's a Liberal hack alright.

Nemesis, how can you say that the BCTF doesn't represent teachers when we got an 88.4% yes vote to strike??? Do you think Jinny Sims and the BCTF Exec. held chalk brushes to our heads to make us vote yes????? It couldn't possibly be because teachers have finally had enough, could it???????

Now that the Liberals have imposed legislation YET AGAIN we will see how firmly teachers are ready to stand behind their convictions. I, for one, am ready to be on the picket lines tomorrow. But I won't walk for a raise. I will walk to stand up for the rights of the students of BC. Who else will do it? Do any of you who criticize teachers donate money to schools to buy supplies or even donate your time to help the students who have less supports than they did in 2002???? Do you try and help in anyway you can or do you just sit at your computer and criticize?

I am hoping with all my heart that the teachers of BC stand behind their 88.4% strike mandate. Teachers are notoriously afraid to stand up for their rights. We are always so worried about public opinion. But it looks like much of the public is behind us now because they can see this is more than just "those whining teachers wanting a raise". The majority of people can see how this government has been eroding our education system. Even if you don't agree with that, any union worker has to be angry at how teachers' basic human rights have been taken away from them when the govt. denies them their right to strike.

Get ready, folks. I hope it's going to be a VERY interesting time in BC over the next few weeks.

Spedteacher, when you talk to the public, you might be wise to resist the temptation of using hearts 'n flowers stuff like the below - even if you believe it.

I have to agree with scylla. The public just can't seem to believe that we can bargain for both our students and ourselves at the same time. I think it's time to present class size as a purely working conditions issue. I am ready to walk out and stay out because successive governments have abused their power by using the legislative hammer to force contracts on teachers rather than adress the unworkable bargaining structure government has created in the first place (teachers didn't ask for provincial bargaining). When people have no legitimate avenue to adress their greivances, civil disobedience (illegal strike) is the next step. And in case I get ragged on for suggesting civil disobedience as a legitimate activity for teachers to engage in, history has generally vindicated those engaged in such protests.

Dear Uncle Jack,
Bye. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
You are already an over paid whiner that just hasn't a care for the kids.
With all of your holidays, pro-d days ect, you sure as hell don't care about what over worked, over taxed parents have to deal with.
Your day at school is usually over by 4pm. Then you are home for the evening. Weekends and holidays off.
In the real world, folks have to work long hours for sh*t pay, and still try to be there for the kids.
If you think folks actually give a damn about your sorry life, think again. People only want the best for their kids. You obviously ain't it.
Take a powder... blow...g'bye....so long...TTFN

freebc

I thought my last post might hook a flamer. I don't think people do care about me, that's the point. And that's why I think my union should become more militant, kinda like the UAW and PPWC both of which I've belonged to. We should strike and if the public can do without us I agree with you ... so long...goodbye.

Scylla, who else but a bleeding heart would be a teacher, particularly a special education teacher? I will not apologize for caring about my students. That's why I became a teacher in the first place!! After all, "Kids matter, teachers care".

freebc, I don't know about schools in the Lower MainLand but if you drive by any one of the 3 schools in my small town on any given weekend, you will see cars in the parking lot. They all belong to teachers giving up their weekends to prep for their students. Check out the universities during the summer months. There will be lots of teachers there too and wow!! that's their holiday too!! Watch teachers as they leave the school at the end of the day (most around 2 hrs. AFTER the dismissal bell has gone). Almost every single one of them is carrying a bin of marking to do at home. Hmmmm when do you think the last time a pulp mill worker took his work home with him or worked for free??????

Uncle Jack, did you watch Global TV tonight? Not only is the BCTF Exec. meeting tonight but so is the Exec. of the BC Fed. Now gosh, I bet almost everyone reading these posts can figure out what THAT means. There are so many teachers who are so very angry tonight. Let's hope we have another very strong "YES!" vote tomorrow!!!! Five and a half years with imposed contracts is much, much too long!!!!!!!

Spedteacher, stop preaching to the converted. You're now engaged in what will be dirty, propagandistic fight waged by Campbell and his toadying gang of neocons who are out to destroy ALL unions, not just the BCTF.

Surely by now you've got the drift of that from the sneering trolls on this site who are not the least interested in your POV.

You can be sure they will all be saying ONLY they speak on behalf of the poor downtrodden taxpayer (which we are) and their children, who are being bilked by those overpaid commie teachers and their fat-cat leadership.

For sure you represent the best interests of the kids, but the public will think they smell a rat if you get sidetracked into debating Campbells seductive line of argument.

freebc

You said

"In the real world, folks have to work long hours for sh*t pay, and still try to be there for the kids."

Well, I have worked in the "real world" and if you had read this whole thread you would have noted that. I just finished my marking and got my three year old out of bed for her nightly pee and it struck me (while she was tinkling) that you must be pretty pi**ed of at your own situation to make such a comment. If you don't like your current job, do what I did. Serve an apprenticeship and become a journeyman tradesman. By and large you will find that trades jobs pay well and are somewhat respected. Or, you can do what I did to qualify for my second (teaching) career. Sell your house and scrounge enough extra cash to earn a degree in teaching, start at the bottom subbing, work your way into a permanent position at the bottom of the payscale and then work your way up. In the end, you will be paid roughly comparably to a tradesman and, if you can ignore all the teacher haters and government dingbats that get in the way of you doing your job, you will find working with children far more rewarding than the sh*t job you are doing now. Now, I can tell you don't think much of teachers and you will probably dismiss my advice as coming from someone who works in the "fake?" world of the public school system, but that's your loss and I feel sorry for you.

Oops

That should read...pretty pi**ed off.

I'm amazed at all the misconceptions floating around media-land that the BCTF is some big evil union duping its members. The BCTF is a democratically-run organization OF TEACHERS! It is not run by some fat-cats sitting behind their desks on Howe Street, it is run by teachers FOR teachers, many of whom volunteer their own time, on top of everything else (see Spedteacher's post for a typical teacher's day.)

If some teachers really want out of the BCTF, as many of you would claim, they should go for it. Petition the government, do whatever they have to do. That is their right. (They can also give back their pension, sick days, salary increases, medical benefits and all the other things negotiated by unions.)

But it's not going to happen.

A strike mandate of 88.4% is a good indication
of what is on the minds of BC teachers - and it's certainly not getting rid of the BCTF.

Spedteacher and others who are willing to break the law by striking illegally: How will you explain your actions to your students? Hint: they won't fall for the blather you guys spout on this site. They're too smart for that.

Would they fall for the blather of Martin Luther King?

"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything
the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal."'
--Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail," Why We Can't Wait, 1963

Or perhaps Mahatma Ghandi:
"Non-cooperation with injustice is a sacred duty." - Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)

How dare you whiners even think of comparing your situation of utter greed to that of Martin Luther King Jr. or that of Ghandi.
These are heros of basic civil rights. Social equality not pure selfish greed by a handful of jerks who just want more money.
How come none of want to talk pure dollars. Forget the bull... HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU GET BASE? HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU HARD TIME JERKS GET AT TOP BUCK? HOW MUCH "MORE" DO SPECIAL ED TEACHERS GET?
Quit your whining and get in the class and teach our kids reading writing and Arithmatic like in the olden days before pocket calculators and spell check.
Even better.... show your kids Apollo 13 and teach them how to use a slide rule. Then, and only then, will you get my support and that of many others.

freebc, all teachers get paid according to years in university and years worked. Unlike the US, teachers in BC do not get paid more for coaching or any other extra-curricular activity. Those of us in specialized areas do not get paid any differently than a general education teacher. There are salary grids for each district. There is salary information somewhere on the net. Go find it, honey. I'm tired of spoon-feeding you. Students in our schools would know how to find the information on the net. Can't you?

Nemesis, I will not explain any of the job action to students unless they ask. Teachers are not supposed to bring that kind of politics into our classrooms. We can talk to parents though and you can bet I have!! Come and talk to the parents of some of my special needs students. They will tell you they are behind us 100%. It is their children who are suffering the most (IMHO) in this under-funded system.

I have, however, spoken to my 9 yr. old son about all this. I have asked him what he would like to change at school. Funny but this first thing he said was that he wished there were fewer kids in his class. When I asked why he said "Because there just isn't any room to move around, Mommy. And it takes forever to get help when you need it because Mr. S has so many kids to help." So there you have it. Out of the mouths of babes. Many of you won't believe it, but I hadn't discussed the job action with my son at all before this. He has eyes just like anyone else directly involved in the BC school system.

I cannot wait to attend that meeting after school today. I have faith that the BCTF Exec. will have a plan for us to vote on that will give all of us teachers some dignity FINALLY! Thank goodness we hooked up with the BC Fed!!!!

Teacherparent; Give me a break! Shame on you for even remotely considering such comparisons. Do you teach your students such garbage?
Sped; You've got so many lines I'm beginning to think you're not really a teacher at all, but possibly a plant from the BCTF. For someone so busy with all your teaching duties and draconian working conditions you sure do have a lot of time to blather away on this site.

'Thank goodness we hooked up with the BC Fed!!!!' That was your biggest mistake of all. Hooking your wagon to Jim Sinclair, who says that we 'need to break down the barriers between the custodians and the teachers in the schools.' And who firmly believes that the BCTF is a trade union. Such unbelievable stupidity from a group who want to be treated like professionals. BTW; wasn't there supposed to be a vote on that BC Fed membership this year? No mention of it anywhere. What a surprise!!

Unfortunately this thread has deteriorated into the usual drivel of unsupported facts and mindless accusation rather than the interesting discussion of the issues of teacher compensation and working conditions that it started out as. So sad.

I don't believe that I ever compared myself or the teachers' situation to Martin Luther King or Ghandi's situations. They have made statements of principle. I am simply agreeing with a principle. Perhaps I can quote Plato without anyone using the comparison argument: "It is a just person who disobeys an unjust law." - Plato (427-347 BC)

I am hearing that many writers and teachers are supporting teacher pay raises because the government is running at a surplus. Isn't that thinking a little divorced from reality?
The 'shoot themselves in the foot' statement by BCTF union lawyer Diane MacDonald would turn off the public's sympathy for wage increases. That statement is, as follows....
"We have had job actions in the past that have been up to three-months' duration without significant impact on the student body".
I may be wrong but wasn't it decided a while ago by the BCTF to include children with learning disabilities in ordinary classrooms?
I agree with smaller class size - say 25 students but the teachers must be aware of what the other provinces are paying - and apparently BC isn't exactly suffering by comparison.

"How come none of want to talk pure dollars."

Because there's more to it than that. Because it's not just about the money. No labour contract is. Do try to wrap your head around it. Loosen that trucker cap and maybe some more blood will flow to your brain and you'll start to understand something you don't appear to have a good grasp of.

Don't kid yourself Stump - it's dollars. Not all dollars but most of it!!!!

It's all dollars on one side of the bargaining table Jack's I'll give you that. But it's not the teachers's side.

The biggest issue that the general public should be thinking about (unless you truly do care about the education of BC's children, of course) is that the Liberal government is trying to break unions. Not only are they doing that, they are taking away basic human rights. How can the Liberals complain about how the US has ignored the rulings of the UN, WTO and NAFTA yet it's ok for the Liberals to ignore the UN when they rule against this bogus "essential service" designation.

Gordo and his Liberals made a HUGE mistake Monday. This so-called "Teachers Collective Agreement Act" has done the opposite of what it was intended to do. Teachers are MAD and very disappointed. And when was the last time a collective agreement was reached through legislation???? Would any other union stand for such treatment?? I think not!!!

Teacher -- you LOST the election. Got that? YOU LOST. Get back to work and try again next time.

Love,
the public that pays your salary and 12-weeks vacation.

Martin:

Teacher -- you LOST the election. Got that? YOU LOST. Get back to work and try again next time.

Proof, if any was needed, that dishonest people like sdgreen and Martin, who like to claim they are interested in economic reality, are really only interested in the game of politics.

Martin.. You and others like you have lost the big picture. The teachers are only trying to maintain some of the life and standards that the 60's working class adults used to enjoy. I for one (blue collar guy) have had the liberals up to my eyeballs. Another tax cut for the rich should send enough of us low wage earners to kick these bums out at least to opposition status where they can lessen the harm they have done.

Certainly not with standing my zeal for seeing the teachers back in their collective classes, my sight of politics on the horizon here has brought me once again to the need for 'DIRECT DEMOCRACY LEGISLATION'.
That would place leashes on ALL politicians, and make ALL politicians heel when the public says enough.
In the previous election, there was a referendum to change the way we elect politicians in the first place. But if you look at what you gain by it, the result is zero. BCSTV would still never let you control the politicians, or give you a shot at undoing their draconian legislation. We would be stuck with what we have got right now. And what we have right now will never allow the people of BC a chance to approve or disapprove of anything to government of the day does.
Effective recall and binding initiative legislation puts the power of ultimate governance in the hands of the poeple, and takes it away from the politicians.
In this case, even as much as I personally have zip sympathy for teachers, with such legislation, the teachers would be able to better appeal to the public (who by the way are not stupid, but merely powerless and thus appethetic) who would then be able to force their politicians to go by their (the public's) wishes in this or any matter. The government of the day would be shackled by reasonable consideration and not legislative power.
So teacher, person of great reason and mind molding power... it's up to you to show kids the value of real democracy... in the classroom.
It's unfortunate that the only example of the kind of democracy I can find on this planet is the US model. (interestingly, this model was forbidden to the folks who had to decide on BCSTV)
If you teachers are the ones trying to maintain 60's buying power, where the hell have you been??? I don't care how much money you make. If you are working for someone else, you can't do that. The system isn't set up to serve serfs and peons.
So, if you want to change things, go back into you class room, and instead of pushing your out of touch rhetoric on the environment so much, teach the kids to think past bitching about politicians. CHANGE POLITICS PERIOD!!!!
TAKE BACK THE CONTROL FROM THE POLITICIAN.
In the meantime try thinking about your kids in your care.
Unhitch your wage demands from the class size, library, and other demands. I guarentee you will get public support. But your wage demands are out of touch with the public's reality. That's why most of the public looks at teachers as whiners.

I think you would be surprised at how many teachers would be willing to give up a raise in order to restore conditions in schools to where they were in 2002.

One of the major focuses in BC schools is to deal with the problem of bullying. Welllll the teachers are doing just that! No other union in this province would stand for 4 (I think) legislated contracts in a row. That is why the BC Fed is behind us 100%. Unlike some other people, Jim Sinclair and the gang can see the threat the BC Liberals pose over ALL the unions in this province. A 90.5% mandate shows that Bill 12 backfired on the Liberals. They pushed us too hard. Teachers don't want to go on strike .. we are FORCED to go on strike. No one else is going to bat for the students of BC. I have had parents tell me to "fight the fight for our kids!!" but it would be so much more effective if it was the parents. Not parents who think teachers are whiners, but the ones who actually spend time in our schools and have seen for themselves that the Liberals just doctor the numbers when they say that they provide adequate funding to education. If Gordo likes being ranked so high according to the world's education systems, then he needs to open his eyes. The teachers can't keep up such a high standard under these current conditions.

Go ahead and call us whiners but we know that we are fighting for an excellent cause .. the children of BC!!!!!! And nooooo I'm not a BCTF lackey, I'm just a teacher who truly cares about her students.

The numbers clearly indicate that teachers wages are not keeping up with increases in cost of living and are falling behind other provinces. If they cannot get an increase in wages when times are good, when will it happen?

Teachers used to bargain away raises for better classroom conditions. Sweet deal for the public and the teachers were happy with it, too. If conditions can't be bartered for classroom conditions, show them the money!

If arbitration looked at standard of living, teachers would get a raise.

Negotiating for nothing but decreased benefits doesn't work, not when teachers wages are falling behind, year after year.

Saint Spedteacher says:

All of the things you say you are fighting for (except more money) are things that we, as a society, get to vote on. We freely determine what education conditions our young citizens receive. We do that using something you clearly don't respect: elections -- where we elect fellow citizens to make decisions on our behalf.

Like it or not, last May, the BC Liberals were re-elected. Their platform for the last 2 elections included banning teachers strikes.

Fight against them in the next election, by all means. In the meantime, please respect our demcracy and respect the will of the freely elected legislature of BC.

Martin,
By the time the next election comes around, there may be irreparable damage done to the public school system. Is that what the public voted for? That is not in the Liberal's platform but does seem to be on their agenda (hidden or not).

Teachers may be a bit like the canary in the mineshaft. We can sniff danger now, before it is so bad that anyone can see it. To me this isn't about the money. It is about rights of a segment of society to proper bargaining, and it is about restoring parts of the public school system that made it a better place to learn.

Martin,

I am not a saint. No matter if you believe it or not, I truly care about the welfare of my students. That is completely genuine. In fact, I care rather deeply for my own child's education. I am fighting for him just as much as for my students. I feel sorry for you that you have never felt passionately about support for an issue such as this.

I had to go in for day surgery today and couldn't believe how much support was given to the teachers, through me, from nurses and other hospital workers. One nurse had tears in her eyes as she talked to me of what her daughter with learning disabilities has to go through at school due to lack of support. She told me "Teachers and nurses know we will never become millionaires but we do our jobs because we love them and we are the kind of people who want to help others. You guys fight the fight and we will be there right beside you on the picket lines when the call comes!!!!"

Nurses understand why teachers are taking a stand. Hospital workers understand. CUPE members understand. Various education partners around the world have expressed their support for the cause of BC teachers. Isn't it a shame that people around the world can see the plight the BC education system is in but there are people right here in this province who can think of nothing past how much money this will cost them.

As I've said before, why don't you spend some time in BC schools? Put your volunteer services where they are needed and spend less time spouting venom on the internet? Don't tell me what's going on in our education system until you have seen for yourself what the Liberals are doing to it.

Martin Wrote...
"We do that using something you clearly don't respect: elections -- where we elect fellow citizens to make decisions on our behalf."

Dear Martin,

Let me put this in a right slant kind-of-way that you will surely understand.

Let's say you interviewed a person for your companies supervisory position that talked the talk and said everything you wanted to hear. They had a resume that made you see visions of company growth and, even though you knew the person would never be your best friend, their ideology and direction for your company convinced you to hire them and sign on the dotted line.

The next day, when your inspiring worker hit the floor, they did nothing that they said they would do. In fact, they really started to screw things up. They fired some of your best workers and brought in some of their friends giving them huge wage increases. They decided to change the work process that was tried and true. They ripped up your blueprints and implemented a process that caused less production, deficiencies and customer dissatisfaction.

Now, would you let them continue until their contract was up or would you fire their butts out the door?

I believe the phrase "Liberal Liars" has a nice ring to it, doesn't it!

I knew you would see things our way. I rest my case.

Sincerely,

Average Joe

Let's not forget that the Liberals won the election because so many people were afraid of the NDP and voted for the Green Party. Those numbers included teachers, by the way (to those who thought teachers voted NDP en masse.) Anyone with some math skills could see that if you could have combined the votes for Green and the NDP, the Liberals would have lost the election. Now, at least, we are fortunate enough to at least have an Opposition in government. Imagine. There was actually a debate over the act laughingly called "The Teachers Collective Agreement Act".

My my... isn't this fun.
Teachers and folks like myself who can only agree on one thing... what we got ain't workin'.
If for some reason teachers have dropped their demand for increased wages, doesn't that mean that there is tax payor money now more available for negotiating the other things?
Or... is the issue of wages going to be a stumbling block to any negotiation?
You say that this isn't about wages. It's about conditions for our children to learn in.
If this is true, why not go on tv and tell the people who pay your wages that you just want what's right for the kids. And that wages aren't part of the equation.
Course that won't happen because despite all of your efforts to bamboozle the public, you folks in general, not the singular, greedy.
I cannot say for certain that any one teacher is out solely for money, but the BCTF sure is pushing for it.
Why not just save them that have the power the time and effort and just go back to work, or find something else to do.

My my... isn't this fun.
Teachers and folks like myself who can only agree on one thing... what we got ain't workin'.
If for some reason teachers have dropped their demand for increased wages, doesn't that mean that there is tax payor money now more available for negotiating the other things?
Or... is the issue of wages going to be a stumbling block to any negotiation?
You say that this isn't about wages. It's about conditions for our children to learn in.
If this is true, why not go on tv and tell the people who pay your wages that you just want what's right for the kids. And that wages aren't part of the equation.
Course that won't happen because despite all of your efforts to bamboozle the public, you folks in general, not the singular,ARE (sorry, missed a word) greedy.
I cannot say for certain that any one teacher is out solely for money, but the BCTF sure is pushing for it.
Why not just save them that have the power the time and effort and just go back to work, or find something else to do.

It would seem that there are alot of strong feelings about all of this.

I find it surprising that people disagree with the ideas of having enough desks, textbooks, and other "learning aids" for all the students in the classroom.

The amount of students in a classroom obviously affects the level of attention to the individual student.

The decisions, starting from the government all the way down the "chain of influence", have put the problem on the classroom teachers' plate.

Ofcourse people are upset when people who can agree to give themselves raises do so while not giving them down the line as it were.

Perhaps the process would be streamlined and the "average joe" could understand the problem better if we could get these issues out of the way.

Ideally there should be no arguing over textbooks and desks. The government should step up and provide the funding. But it must be separate from the wage and working conditions bargaining.

I realize I lost some of you there...

But as a parent I need somone to blame and the two sides are making it hard to respect either. If the teachers gave the problem of supplying schools entirely, there would be alot less people saying that they were using it a leverage.

I realize I lost more of you there...

At least the public would have a clear direction to point the finger.

Right on Bill!
Nobody that I know of has a problem with stuff for the kids.
The issue of wages is now, and has been the problem.
I and most folks simply have had it with greedy public service unions.
From the guys who stand around (in appearance) holding shovels down while the back-hoe works, to the teachers.
We pay too many tax dollars and see so little return for our money. THAT'S what people are pissed at.
Well said Bill.

Must say I do have a very good laugh on this forum. Also happy to know that Moat shops at Chapters. After all it is, when all said and done, owned by the teachers.
Best of both worlds eh!

Spare me Spedteacher,
My wife and I are trying to raise funds for an orphanage school in Tanzania.
There are some 40 students, most are crippled or blind, five of the students are albino. Several of the teachers are also handicapped. The students sleep in the classrooms - we are trying to raise money for blankets and a dormitory. The kitchen is unsanitary but the new kitchen has been started - the latrines, however, are disgusting. A high fence surrounds the school - to keep predators out - humans in this case. A few extra acres have been purchased so that the school can, to some extent provide its own food. Brail machines are urgently needed.
Spare me spedteacher - please!

cont'd
not to mention of course; paper, pencils, books, clothing, soap etc., etc.

Spare you from what, Finster? It's very kind and generous of you to provide support for children in other countries less fortunate than ours. Too bad you can't extend the same generosity and compassion to the children in the BC school system. And you know what? I donate money to children's organizations around the world too. So do lots of individual teachers, their union locals, the BCTF, and schools do fund raising of that kind throughout the school year every year (and who do you think organizes that fund raising on their own time on the school's behalf????????). In fact, I was technically on medical leave on Friday for surgery. I'm donating the money that I will be paid for that day to a children's organization since I am on strike and did manage to hobble over to the picket line. So the fact that you are working so hard to help children isn't news to me. My collegues and I do it every single day and we're doing it now on the picket line. I'm pretty sure my lost wages (along with all the other teachers) during the next week or so will make a pretty hefty donation to the Ministry of Education!!!

I thought this column was dealing with political comments, but, I'm FULLY behind the teachers on this just because of the completely undrhanded actions of the liberal govt. Afterall, 2010 and native claims are far more important than your kids education....

Unfortunately, netscaper, there are a few people out there who prefer to divert attention from the real issues to criticize teachers and condemn a situation of which they know nothing of firsthand.