Well put Patrick

Nothing much I can add.

Thanks.

Never have thought much of the old 'primal masculine vitality' - in fact, I put it in more or less the same box (dumpster) with primal 'female intuition'.

Who'd wanna chuck them out anyway? They're welcome to it.

Last time I laughed this hard at the idea that men need a 'getaway' to polish their balls was when someone suggested to me that I should take up 'drumming' with the woods with some half-baked disciples of Robert Bly.

polish their - ummm...

Patrick and G West, heartfelt thanks. You have amply proved my contention that the 'audience' here is as important as the ... the ... what is this, again? Well, never mind, my girlie flounces are showing...I very much enjoyed what you had to say. To say I was bewildered by the article is a small understatement.

One need not take a stance of "J'accuse" to be a feminist however, and I do always enjoy a little drumming with my moonlight dancing...no polishing required.

If they remember the stories afterwards ...

... they're not doing it right.

;-p

Liked it

Been doing stuff like that in smaller bits since 79 myself.

It's about sharing memories....

Hey G West and Patrick,

ultimately it is about sharing the memories. Maybe there could be a little less focus on the drinking or noise creation, but that does not seem to be the issue with you guys.

Besides the celebration of masculinity does not imply the rejection of femininity or family. There is very little reference to these concepts in the article.

There are lots of men who secretly want to out and build a treehouse or fort somewhere... if they want to get together and talk about it, let them have their fun. I think that author recognizes and celebrates the absurdity of it.

It not like they were getting together and watching that boxing or UFC together this weekend. ;)

Let wee men have their bit of fun:

A plea to those who would disparage those who would defend Mancations. By Moat.

Moat: My point is that if what they're saying is that Mancations give back lost masculine manna, then Mancations DO amount to IDing culture as feminizing, even if the rest of society is not primarily being focussed on. And if that is what the rest of society amounts to to those who go on Mancations, then you'd think--quite rightly--they ought to man-up and wage holy war on those who've dared drain away their precious masculine' primal goodness, to those who've drained away their very f*cking souls!

Look, if women went off into the wilderness to replenish themselves, to shake loose and disgard broader influences that had withered away at their attempts to understand themselves as fully enfranchised, fully worthy, fully women, and then on the way back home slunk back into being largely uninterested in holding the rest of society to account, wouldn't they amount to a movement somewhat unworthy of respectful attendance by others'? Even if you did so in a less self-congradulatory way than G West and I tend to evidence when we heep scorn, wouldn't you be tempted to ridicule them, at least a little bit?

Men, when you write up your "odes" to masculinity, please try, try, try, to write more ballsy stuff! Channel Margaret Atwood; get inside what she would do if she were a man and in your soul-drained situation. Do you really think she would ever finish her ostensible man/manna restoring expedition, by CONCLUDING--as this fellow did--how wonderful it is to find yourself properly LOWERED back into place? Egads!--If that's what you discover when you've uncovered Real Masculinity, then maybe it ought to be asked if men are all that necessary, anyway?

For crying out loud...lighten up!

In my circle it's called a Road Trip.

I enjoyed the article until I came to the comments. Boy, SOME of you folks sure can read a lot into nothing. Ball polishing? Real Masculinity?

I think you faux psychologists SHOULD get out in the woods a little bit and "get your minds right" as my buds and I call it. No drama. No navel gazing. Just the lads kicking back and yes, playing hard.
We pay for it the next morning but thats our choice. No harm done.

I'll have a beer with you anytime Nick! (I know we'd get along as you don't make a point of being called "Nicholas")

Ever done the south end of Birkenhead Lake.....?

So happy, we're supposed to

So happy, we're supposed to be like Nick and not make too much of it. That is, we're supposed to be like the good sporting mate who offered us this:

"Whenever a society finds itself in the midst of great change, as we do now, it is important to take stock of the institutions that form its bedrock, giving it the solid foundation that has allowed it to build itself to great heights.

I would like to draw attention to a certain tradition that is at risk of being lost in today's dynamic environment since it is one of those customs that belongs only to men, and thus, its value has diminished over recent decades.

This practice has allowed men to realize their place within the larger society, to preserve the stories of the tribe and to achieve a level of consciousness not able to be attained during their hectic day-to-day lives."

No thunder, no manic portent, in this "brew"? Really? I suppose it could have all been a joke, like some beer commercial that starts off all mock-epic, before slipping more assurely into domestic--small scale--comedy, but it seemed genuine to me.

Yes. A joke.

And a very well written one. I had a smile on my face through the whole article, when I wasn't laughing outright.

Why? Because its true! Every word. I've even done the "supply boat" thing. Note to Author: Don't ever tow an aluminum cartopper behind a power boat at speed. If they get outside the wake they can roll - real fast. That sucks. Beer doesn't float.

Boys will be boys, and so will a lot of (ahem) older men.

Or so I've beem told...

Yes definitely humour

Thanks Happy. IMO, Patrick's armchair psychologising was completely unnecessary, if not mean-spirited.

But I'm curious, Vivian, just where do you dance naked in the moonlight? (he says leeringly)

Since we all need uplifting (that's a pun, please) rituals, I've been applying to our local coven for warlock status, but they won't let me in....Do you have any advice???

armchair psychology

I don't think Patrick was mean-spirited, but he will speak for himself. I read into the article a sense of resignation at becoming "more serious, that much more grown up and sure of ourselves" - only when they go home. If real life happens only on 'mancation', what does that say about the rest of the time? Is it important?

It's important to me, at any rate, since I like men and like to have a few around me. And I certainly don't want to live my life waiting for the next girlie vacation (or occasion for naked moonlight dancing) to affirm my authenticity...

Just when I've become accustomed to being patted on the head, you're now patting my bum, ME2.My advice? Just go out and dance naked in the moonlight and see if you like it...

Oh, and witches are witches, male or female.

Hidden themes? It's just a camping trip.

Ok Patrick, I know that we are probably not going to reach a consensus here, but my point is that you, G West, and Vivian Lea are reading far too much into this article and getting hung up on the word “mancation”.

I do agree with you that women went “women went off into the wilderness to replenish themselves, to shake loose and dis[re]gard broader influences that had withered away at their attempts to understand themselves as fully enfranchised, fully worthy, fully women” that I would “ridicule” them a little bit. In fact, I would ridicule men if they did this “I-am-animal-hear-me-roar” thing! But I don’t think the author is even remotely suggesting that the “mancation” is a result of frustration or disenfranchisement. I don’t think you are being mean spirited, but I think you are being unfair to the author and addressing themes out of the scope of the article.

It is also perplexing as to why you and VivianLea and you also get so stuck on the line “…Without the trip, I am afraid that, individually, we would become more serious, that much more grown up and sure of ourselves.” VivianLea, are you saying that being “grown up” and “sure of ourselves” is a good quality that we cannot examine or question? Maybe I am reading too much into your statements…. like I think you are with this author.

“Real life” activities such mowing the backyard or washing the car on the weekend are far more ridiculous (and robotic) than the “mancation”. I don’t think there is a sense of resignation here at all, just connecting with long term friends.

It's hard to read how one is

It's hard to read how one is supposed to take it, 'cause, yeah, it looks to be mock-epic switching to domestic-comedy--ala a, don't take this seriously, beer commercial. But it can't resist closing on a pretty angry note ("And that is a place from which no one can chuck us out"), making the whole piece feel like it was almost purposely moving from broad expanse to tiny, closed space, as means to show up what society has made of men--but without wanting to be exposed as having any such "high ambition," such serious social critique, in mind, without being in a position where it isn't well defended against those fools who would read into the piece. This is why, I think, it felt cowardly to me; why it felt sad, not funny. Why it made me implore that either those who think this way find way to be more forthright and ballsy in their complaint, or allow someone to test to see if they might just all be made to fit into even tighter confines, just so we could be as much rid of such depressing silliness, as possible.

I wonder, How many ridiculous, near worthless Mancationers could you fit in a coffin, if you took out some of that draft beer . . . If amidst campire tale-telling, I said I packed in twenty, I think my friends would look to me with considerable horror and awe. This is no doubt sick, but mightn't it be in some way preferable, to pathetic, mutual, low self-regard?

Moat: Good to hear from

Moat: Good to hear from you. (But the correction I needed was "shake loose and disCARD," not "shake looose and disREGARD.") To me it felt like the author was well aware that if he wasn't careful about how he wrote the piece, he would very quickly be accused of Robert Bly ridiculousness (something we are all so sensitive to, that he was anyway), of being so unmanly, uncomposed, immoderate enough, to "take the whole thing way too seriously." But it's cover. You could feel real lament, pain, even--or at least I could. But he's hemmed in; can't say what he seems like he wants to say, without feeling even smaller than he now (admittedly) does. That's the situation guys are in, these days, I guess. And it's pretty sad. Genuinely. I feel for these guys. They deserve way better.

I guess somewhere here I could have made it clear that what I like about Robert Bly, is that he took the need to be a man very straighforwardly, very seriously. He wasn't concerned that his sober if not reverential references to myth, would make him look ridiculous, embarassing to many of his own generation, and evidently to subsequent ones. He was, I guess, the Tom Cruise of a different generation'.

clarification

"VivianLea, are you saying that being “grown up” and “sure of ourselves” is a good quality that we cannot examine or question? "

These are not qualities I aspire to...

It's perfectly possible I read too much into this article: I didn't find it light-hearted but rather elegiac. I have a girl friend who refuses to look in a mirror while camping - this is her only refuge from the tyranny of constantly checking her 'look' in every day life. I find that sad, too. I guess what I aspire to is capturing the authenticity of me in everything I do on a daily basis, not just sometimes. If there is something missing from daily life...how tragic.

Nothing at all against a beer

With the boys; with the girls; with the boys and the girls...just don't ask me to put it on a pedestal or say it's the centre of anything - good, bad or indifferent.

It isn't.

That's all.

Good friends sharing time together is a fine thing - the suggestion that this can only be done by boys, with boys (or by girls with girls) is just silly.

If the story meant to make that point it's a good thing - but I don't believe that was its intention at all - hence the comment.

But happy, maybe you didn't notice I was laughing too. A bunch of men pretending they're still children IS pretty funny. And, I'm still laughing!

I laugh

Every time Don Cherry opens his mouth too.

Camping trip deconstruction

West, I don't see the author suggesting anywhere that good times can only come with friends of your own sex (I don't even want to go there...)
He was merely reporting (comically) on experiences he has enjoyed over the years that involved camping with old high school buddies and a hell of a lot of booze.
I can relate.
Yes, the behaviour definitely can get quite juvenile when you mix those combustible ingredients together, but to make the leap from an innocent annual getaway to questioning what the "real" motives are behind it is overanalyzing in the extreme. IMO.
Maybe I'm just a simple redneck (like Cherry) but I thouroughly enjoyed the story for just what it said.
Not what it didn't say.
And what others think it said.
Ignorance is bliss.

You said it....

Cheers happy - have a nice summer.

For me, that kind of stuff was happily left in high school, it gave me a headache then and one that I don't care to repeat with any regularity.

I only speak for myself of course.

I think Cherry's far worse than a simple redneck though - he's a very skilled and sophisticated marketer of his own brand of racist prejudice.

He's actually almost completely foreign to what I think modern Canada is all about...

Whoa! Camp Therapy 2009

VivianLea, I think I understand where you are going with your points, it is just I don’t feel that they are a good fit to what this author’s message is. Authenticity is everywhere; we just try to make it more convenient. Daily life is full of social conventions designed to minimize the “authenticity” of each individual. That is why each home and place of work is full of clocks and watches. These guys on this trip are leaving much (not all) their ascribed status and paying less attention to their watches. However, it is not a noble exercise… it is just an all male camping trip with friends from childhood.

Your friend who refuses to check the mirror while camping is not being freed from any “tyranny”. It is her own personality and values that compels her to check the mirror everyday. She, like most of us, has bought into the value that looking attractive has in our daily lives. She is the one that makes the choice to check the mirror. Her “authentic” self has a hint of mild narcissism in it. But that is ok! And maybe recognizing it will free her from perceived expectations. And if it does not, it is her choice to “improve” her quality of life by changing the expectations of herself.

Some good points from you Patrick… but I don’t get your comment, “They deserve way better”. How so? Only those with freedom and privilege can take the time to travel somewhere consuming valued resources at their leisure. While they are on there trip, I think many of them are thinking “I don’t want to be anywhere else right now”. It does not mean that they want the “mancation” to go on. At no point does the author imply that the mancation is a substitute for family or real life working relationships. There are far more obvious themes here that can be discussed.

Moat

Please bring on your obvious themes, then.

Yes, gay males exist

What of faggots like myself who don't need to get away from "the lady folk"? I can only imagine how my stories would be received around a campfire surrounded by drunks.