Just another step to

Just another step to ultimately worldwide, corporate, fascist dictatorship, licenced to searcg and destroy and designed to make Canada's "deep integration" into the USA gradual and accepted by the public.

There was a time when businesses were supposed to be "customer friendly", now customers must lie down and beg to be trampled over to be "business friendly".

Funny thing, when I was in business and gave a price to a customer, but the customer went somewhere else, I had no right to complain, or sue for the loss of profits. When I lost my shop to zoning and had to look for another place, I had no right to sue Vancouver City council. But now a multinational can come in and demand anything and councils must deliver.

Under capitalist communism, the huge conglomerates are licenced to demand profits by taxation and sue against any action by elected government. Stalin is alive and well, now playing the stock and money markets.

This is called democracy in the neocon, globally competitive market economy.

I've just read a speech by Mr.Dodge,the governor of the Bank of Canada, praising TILMA, as "flexibility" and claiming that our inflation rate remained about 2%/yr since 1990. The man is crazy, or a deliberate liar. Our grocery prices alone are going up more than 2% every month and have doubled in the past 5-6 years.
So much for the benefit of phoney "free trade" and "trade agrements"

Will the public ever wake up?

Ed Deak.

Let's see ...

Get paid $10,000 more, buy a house for half the price ... but I have to live in Calgary. It's a toss up.

It will be interesting to see if any teachers in Alberta take advantage of TILMA to come here.

Quote:Will the public ever

the short answer is NO!
I have waited since the fifties for the masses to realize they are being taken advantage of, but our leaders make sure that some pittance keeps them happy.
It is frustrating to see how people get sidetracked by details like should I buy a plasma TV, or go for a new 4x4?
As long as they can get something new and shiny for nothing down, they will be happy!

TILMA Erases Government in Favour of Commerce

TILMA is all about inter-provincial trade barriers and these “barriers” have been dealt with, prior to TILMA, under the Agreement on Internal Trade that came into effect on July 1, 1995. The AIT was an agreement between the federal, provincial and territorial governments to reduce and eliminate, to the extent possible, barriers to the free movement of persons, goods, services and investment within Canada and to establish an open, efficient and stable domestic market.

So, how come TILMA? Under the existing Agreement on Internal Trade, “the existing regulatory regimes may be grounded in local values, social traditions and economic conditions. They cannot be dissolved overnight. For this reason, achieving comprehensive agreement on standards and regulations is a long term and arduous process. Yet, intergovernmental tensions are a fundamental feature of federations and Canada, with its attachment to the virtues of compromise and negotiation, is well suited to the task. The AIT may not have been a bold stroke but it was a quintessentially Canadian solid first step.” Source: Opinion Canada, April 22, 1999.

Also, the elimination of trade barriers has long been a priority of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. See where this is going? The AIT did not go far enough.

Unlike the Agreement on Internal Trade that recognized the regional and geographical differences prevalent within the land base of Canada, TILMA recognizes no such thing.

What action may citizens take? The Council of Canadians suggests that “Citizens across Canada must tell their local councilors and legislators to make fighting TILMA a priority at the municipal and provincial levels.”

Bearing in mind that Canada is a federal system and Section 121 of the Canadian Constitution prohibits the use of inter-provincial tariffs, the Section and subsequent judicial interpretation have clearly allowed provinces to use non-tariff barriers (for example, regulations) to fragment the internal market and to provide obstacles to universal standards, thus for example permitting provinces with good social services to avoid privatization, therefore, it would appear, citizens have the advantage of protection within the Constitution.
http://www.capcollege.bc.ca/programs/europe/__shared/assets/canada26096.pdf

Hazarding a guess, Constitutional lawyers should be consulted with and quickly. Pushing our NDP MLA’s and Opposition Critics to do so may be part of the remedy.

This is a no brainer

If the Fraser Institute, that mouth piece for the neocons, supports TILMA then you can bet the farm that it is a bad deal for the public. When has the Fraser Institute ever advanced an opinion that made life easier for anyone but the corporations and the very rich.

Stop asking "Will the public wake up?" It's just

another way to blame the victim.

The public isn't told about TILMA ... or TransLink ... or the BCRail Trial ... or anything that might forewarn the population and help them to understand important changes to come.

Blame Big Media. Blame media bias. Blame unscrupulous media. Blame convergence where too much media is owned by one corporation. But don't blame the people. Maybe if we were all clairvoyant, it would help. But we aren't.

Here's one example: on Thurs., March 8, CanWest's three big daily newspapers in B.C. carried not one word about the BCRail Case, which had been the subject of lively debate in B.C. Supreme Court the day before, WITH JOURNALISTS PRESENT. (Ref. Bill Tieleman.) Only 5 small newspapers around this province reported on the issue. Leading the pack was The Globe and Mail. But not a word in CanWest's Vancouver Sun, The Province, or Victoria Times Colonist. Not in today's editions either. So how are people supposed to know? How can you blame the people for not knowing!

And yet, it's often said that "people are apathetic". If so, it's by design, if you ask me. And it really rubs salt into the wound to the body politic.

Maybe it will take ridicule

When CanWest papers start being ridiculed as the joke that they are, any self-respecting journalist will find a different employer and people will stop buy their birdcage flooring. It may take a BC comedian to start a Lotusland comedy hour much like the Canadian Airfarce.
Heaven knows there would be plenty of material pretending to be Harry Enchin and the rest of his buddies.

You are Right BC Mary

That is true. But we also have to blame the orthodox left for not having developed a viable media presence in the past. A widely distributed, hard hitting, muck-raking weekly would certainly have put a dent in the corporate state media. Yet the CCF-NDP-BCFed, had by the 1950's ceased to take an interest in alternate media and left news up to the corporate media.

Can't west

If anyone has further examples of the kind of thing CanWest is up to (or not up to as the case may be) it would be interesting to know exactly what they are.

Such things need documentation - as Mary's little exchange with the editor of the Victoria Times-Colonist illustrated last summer.

We need to do more than just talk about it here and, on TILMA, as Ceritanne ( a new contributor I think) points out, it's time for more members of the public to make their concerns and feelings known. Through letters to the editor or communications with your MLA. In addition, not just NDP MLAs. Even ranters like Bennett, when they forget themselves, help to make and underline useful points.

My view.

Where's the CBC?

Why isn't the CBC reporting on this issue? I can understand the pro-business bias of Canwest, but one would think that someone at the public broadcaster would be willing to run with this story.

You're right Stan

It seems a natural for a Fifth Estate investigation.

Why don't you send them an email?

Bob McKeowan is always saying they read all their mail.

Go for it!

Good

This thing is clearly good. Let's not waste our time debating its merits. This merely reduces regulation and more than anything, allows for greater flexibility amoung professionals.

BC Mary, I respect your convictions, I really do. However, you can't debate everything otherwise you'd turn into the UN. They spend all their time debating and none implementing.

This thing is good and will pass. Let's not spend a year dragging it through the mud because some don't want us to align closer with Alberta.

Nothing would ever get done if we spent all our time debating major government initiatives.

BC Mary, I have one question for you. How has the sale of BC Rail EVER impacted you? How will TILMA ever impact you? They won't!!!! CN is now running it very profitably and paying BC a lot of tax. Far more revenue that we'd ever realize running the railroad inefficiently for public sector employees.

TILMA will never impact you. You have to let some things slide and trust the government.

Cappy ... is all of history's striving lost?

Capitalism, you (with a straight face, I presume) ask:

Everything that happens in the BC Legislature affects us all, and is intended to affect us all. That's why they call it a legislature, Cappy. That's why we vote to put our representatives in the legislature to look out for the public interest.

What an undemocratic, unjust, wilfully blind, bloody awful statement you've made here, Cappy; it's like you're saying: "Shut up. Don't vote. Give up every civil right. Let the powerful do as they will."

But hey, that's what you believe. That's you, Capitalism.

And btw, one (question) and one (question) = 2 questions. There's no charge for that, Cappy. Just think of it as part of our social safety net (free public education).

Just tell me that you were joking. Just foolin' around. Please. Surely you can't be serious.

The TILMA is just another

The TILMA is just another step .....

Toward a North American Union
Thursday, March 08 2007 @ 09:56 AM MST

Introduction

The global elite, through the direct operations of President George Bush and his Administration, are creating a North American Union that will combine Canada, Mexico and the U.S. into a superstate called the North American Union (NAU). The NAU is roughly patterned after the European Union (EU). There is no political or economic mandate for creating the NAU, and unofficial polls of a cross-section of Americans indicate that they are overwhelmingly against this end-run around national sovereignty.

To answer Lou Dobbs, "No, the political elites have not gone mad", they just want you to think that they have.

The reality over appearance is easily cleared up with a proper historical perspective of the last 35 years of political and economic manipulation by the same elite who now bring us the NAU.

This paper will explore this history in order to give the reader a complete picture of the NAU, how it is made possible, who are the instigators of it, and where it is headed.

http://www.augustreview.com/issues/general/toward_a_north_american_union_200608181/

jimmy sinclair won't let

jimmy sinclair won't let this one go b/c he perceives that it threatens his members. therefore neither will the tyee.

Neither will Jimmy Pattison,

Neither will Jimmy Pattison, the Fraser Inst. the Chambers of Commerce and Tom d'Aquino's Chief Executives, as any democratic decision making process threatens the unlimited profit demands of their members and that wouldn't be "business friendly".

So, let's have the excuses by our faithful on why this wasn't permitted to be debated in the Legislature, why was it negotiated in secret, why is there nothing about it in the corporate press, and why no public consultation, when, like NAFTA, it cuts deep into the democratic decision making process by all levels of elected governments?

Ed Deak.

Surely you jest?

From Capitalism "You have to let some things slide and trust the government."

Now that one from Cappy has me laughing. I think he meant to say that some things done by Campbell should be left to slide and a Campbell government should be trusted. I think most of us that get our information from the Tyee do so for a reason. We don't trust any government blatantly favoured by the corporate media. Furthermore why would we trust anyone who tells us they are doing a good job without asking some serious questions. Blind trust is just plain dumb.

No Jokes

The government was elected by the people for the people. They have four year terms for a reason. If we like what they're doing, we keep them in. If we don't, we turf them.

We can't sit around like the NDP used to do and debate everything. It simply takes too much time and resources. Look at the UN. It is useless, why? Because they spend all their time "talking" and none of it "acting".

If we don't like TILMA, we have two years, we turn around and vote NDP, if they promise to repeal it. You aren't going to like every move the government makes - BC Mary, you probably hate 95% of the moves this one makes.

All you can do is sit back, and vote in the next election. In the meantime, i'm lovin' TILMA. I'm loving the sell-off of the assets - it makes business sense. I love the P3's, I love the tax cuts and I love the Olympics!

British Columbia: The Most Beautiful Place on Earth

The UN is useless?

As compared to what?

Now you're going to tell me that the US and its criminal enterprise in Iraq - executed by dozen or so complete liars - one of which was just convicted in an AMERICAN court - is a better way of doing things?

What P3 were you thinking of that made sense for the majority of the people in this province?

And that motto is nonsense too.
Beauty, as your posts prove conclusively, is in the eye of the beholder..

The best "free" speech money can buy

It's funny, I just spent the past month in Cuba, and I come back to a bald Britney Spears and a dead Anna Nicole Smith as the major news stories, while stuff like the BC Rail case and now this TILMA skulduggery get no coverage in the BC MSM despite the enormous impact it will have on the lives of British Colombians.

The MSM in this province is a joke, with the icing being we get to listen to parasites like Cappy gloat over the fire sale of public assets and the wholesale theft of tax money.

G

P3's - I like 'em all starting with Canada line.

The UN is a joke. Whether you agree with its philosophies are not, it is useless. It doesn't get anything done. It is ineffective. You get a bunch of ideologues sitting around a table talking about what should happen, instead of making it happen.

I never said the US was right. I just said the UN is ineffective. Far too much beaurocracy. Its a joke!

Mr. Burns. I've vowed to stop name calling, so I won't respond to the parasite comment. Though, let it be known, that I've paid more tax this year (inflation adjusted) than I've ever paid before, same with last year, same with the year before.

Let me help you out with a little math.

Provincial GDP = 1B x 50% tax rate = 500M in tax revenue. GDP= 1.3B x $40% tax rate = 520M in tax revenue.

See tax cuts lead to reinvestment, which in turn increases the GDP and income.

Parasites can add, unfortunately they also multiply

Cappy, you well know that economic growth in BC has nothing to do with tax cuts. It has solely to do with increased demand for extracted resources. Given that, it makes no sense to sell off those and related assets at bargain rates, especially in a seller's market.

Given the atrocious state of social services in this province, and the diversion of tax dollars to feed infrastructure projects (RAV & Sea to Sky) designed to funnel funds to politically connected contracting parasites (sorry if the truth hurts Cappy), I don't possibly see how you can complain at my characterization. Especially considering how much time you spend here gloating about it all.

Sorry James

My rule is that I'll discuss issues with you lefties, though not if you can't acknowledge that tax cuts help the economy.

I have no problems discussing ramifications, or detriments of tax cuts - which there are some. I've said that the Libs 2001 cuts were too immediate. 25% overnight was not sustainable, though they couldn't have predicted SARS and 9/11.

I have no problems discussing the ill-effects (or perceived) of Capitalism. However, you lose me when you are foolish enough to make a comments like that.

It has been proven by the brightest economic minds in this world that lower taxes = more investment = higher GDP growth. There are three main ways to stimulate an economy 1) tax cuts 2) interest rate deductions 3) government spending. Though, it has been proven by most (there is dissenting opinion) that tax cuts, interest rates have a greater long term impact on the economy. Government spending has a great short term impact. This is partly why the US economy has boomed. Dubya has been spending up the Wazu AND cutting taxes!! Pure stupidity.

Regardless, I will not talk further with you on this issue. There are plenty of economies in this world aren't levered to commodities. In fact, most of the USA isn't. Give it a rest.

Cappy, if you knew the

Cappy, if you knew the elementary rules of business, you'd know that the sale of assets, or resources, is the sale of capital and not an income, and leads to bankrupcy.

Any business can "boom" if it doesn't account inventory sold off the shelves, as debits.

As BC is doing now, when everything goes on the phoney GDP and nothing is debited.

Ed Deak.

Tax cuts do not help the people

They help business and business success is based upon return to shareholders. If you think the economic climate in this country is getting better for the 80% of families who aren't improving their position relative to the top 20% and the cannibalization of time that's happening for everyone, then there is simply no point talking to you.

Read this report and call me in the morning.
You need a good dose of reality my friend:

http://policyalternatives.ca/documents/National_Office_Pubs/2007/The_Rich_and_the_Rest_of_Us.pdf

Oh, and don't come back to me with some line about this being a lefty document. It has been carefully checked out by the Globe and Mail.

As you your earlier remark about the UN - what was happening in Iraq under UN auspices didn't kill 700,000 Iraqis.

Oh, I thought the name calling was going to stop

Once more, cappy and I'm reporting you to the editor.

Don't call me, or anyone else, a lefty.

You have to be kidding Cappy

“My rule is that I'll discuss issues with you lefties, though not if you can't acknowledge that tax cuts help the economy”. Targeted tax cuts to encourage a particular sector might provide temporary help but as a blanket position and the resulting competition to do one better and the continual ratcheting down of taxes between two jurisdictions just risks the general living standard of all.

“ I've said that the Libs 2001 cuts were too immediate. 25% overnight was not sustainable, though they couldn't have predicted SARS and 9/11.” SARS and 9/11 were raindrops in economic significance to a government that inherited 2 surplus budgets and a third projected then benefited from increased federal transfers and higher commodity prices. Unlike the NDP in the 90's that took over after the Socreds (the old Liberals) ran up a deficit of 2 and half billion dollars. Then had to deal with low commodity prices, lower federal transfers in health care and the asian economic meltdown. Those Socred “capitalists” had only two balanced budget in all of the 80's. Now they are the great financial wizards? Yeah right!

“However, you lose me when you are foolish enough to make a comments like that.” That we can agree with

“It has been proven by the brightest economic minds in this world that lower taxes = more investment = higher GDP growth”. Wouldn’t we all like to know who these great minds are according to cappy because the world is in such a stable state right now.

“ There are three main ways to stimulate an economy 1) tax cuts 2) interest rate deductions 3) government spending. Though, it has been proven by most (there is dissenting opinion) that tax cuts, interest rates have a greater long term impact on the economy. Government spending has a great short term impact. This is partly why the US economy has boomed. Dubya has been spending up the Wazu AND cutting taxes!! Pure stupidity” You just contradicted two of your three points. All indications are that the US economy is very vulnerable because of their pursuit of the three main ways..

“There are plenty of economies in this world aren't levered to commodities. In fact, most of the USA isn't.” Puleese! The U.S. gets all its commodities from other countries for much less because of people like Campbell. Cut off the supply and see how long they remain unlevered.

“Give it a rest.” You are right on that one Cappy!

Cappy Loves Canada Line

Cappy:

Did you happen to know that the new Canada line isn't even the same skytrain technology as the current system? Trains, rails, everything will be different. What city in the world do you know of that has rapid transit system based on different technologies? The London Underground? Nope. New York subway? Nope. So that means if trains brake down on the new line existing sky train cars won't be able to be used. I'm guessing too that the Canada Line will be something like the Westcoast express, meaning you'll have to purchase a completely separate ticket to ride it. That's just a guess though because no one from RAVco or Canada line will answer my email.

I am guessing that the line to Coquitlam will be a third system altogether. But hey, as long as it's a P3 who cares right? Three cheers for Kevin it has to be a P3 or else Falcon.

Cappy (and ilk)

Ask those three dead women and all the ones injured going to work in the nurseries.....

Or the students left hanging when the private colleges fold their tents and skulk off........

BC Rail

I'm guessing there are a few sport fishermen and some first nations who could argue that the sale of BC Rail impacted them.

In fact the Squamish Nation is considering a lawsuit against CN for impacting their fishery on the Cheakamus. Good on them.

Not to mention

Some dead railway employees, a lot of dead fish, several millions of dollars of environmental damage, a potential for the future lost forever - all in return for a few million dollars net of tax breaks over the next 25 years. And God knows what kind of a reach-around for Gordon Campbell and his friends - in my view.

You must be joking. I can see why Mary didn't even bother with your question.

We need this trial. The future of this province needs this trial. Every British Columbian needs this trial.

The only ones who don't, apparently, are the folks who run and work for CanWest Global....

The fortress

What is most interesting about TILMA is that not even legislation can overturn its rulings. This is a government voluntarily rendering itself null to the principle of "free trade" and privitiation in both policy and principle.

When you want to create a North American fortress of "free trade" and deregulation, it is easier to remove provincial borders than national. Mr. Harper, whose minister Stockell Wetsuit attended the grander CCCE meeting in Banff, think it's a great idea. But they don't like to talk about it. Time to make them do so I think...

Mr. Harper thinks no one needs Canada, but it ain't so.

Who needs Mr.Harper &

Who needs Mr.Harper & Co?

Ed Deak.

'Don't call me, or anyone

'Don't call me, or anyone else, a lefty.' you ashamed of being a left g?

'Don't call me, or anyone

'Don't call me, or anyone else, a lefty.' you ashamed of being a lefty g?

Its not the question of

Its not the question of being "ashamed" ,but the stupidity of those who use such nonsensical cliches as a form of debate, or argument, is so pathetic that one can't help feeling sorry for them.

In a way, it is like a form of drug addiction, so why wave it ?

Ed Deak.

No

I'm not at all ashamed of being on the left in a spectrum in which someone like you represents the right. But I am not a 'lefty' whatever that means. It is a common slur and that kind of language is supposed to be verbotten here.
Remember?

'lefty' a slur. that's news

'lefty' a slur. that's news to me. methinks you're being a litte too sensitive here gwest/alcibiades/?/?/?.

nope, I consider it a slur

just like someone who calls a rightwinger a neocon nazi

I'm not sensitive at all - in fact, there's almost nothing I wouldn't put up with ( the limit actually was reached on the Mair free speech thread a week ago wednesday - I don't know if you saw it?)

I kept a copy of the very worst of that mess - it's all been deleted now and if you give me an email address I'll send you a copy. But, if there are going to be rules then we all have to abide by them.

And, in the end, it'll be a better place for everyone if people show some respect for each other - even if they often don't agree on much. I thought you'd get the point if I engaged you about sport and you might clue in to the fact that we could also talk about other things without you calling people names.

It never clicked Elliot.

How come?

Champers on the 1st!

So many of us on both side of the polital divide think that perhaps there are too many jurisdictions in our little country. Here, at last, we have a great reason to celebrate. Break out the champagne! Our province and our neighbours and friends next door in Alberta are about to come together under an historic agreement that will eliminate some of the petty barriers between us.

Let us hope that this is a beacon of common sense and a template that other provinces will emulate.

The anticipated and projected windfall in GDP and employment growth is substantial and if only half the gains are realised there will still be a bonanza for all.

What's not to like?

Lower taxes, higher employment, an upcoming Olympic Games and a closer relationship with our successful neighbours in Alberta.

Aren't we fortunate to live in British Columbia?

I completely disagree

Are you familiar with what's happening in the community of Fort Chipewyan?

The last thing BC needs to tie its wagon to is Alberta.

God help us.

Let's hope that the constitutionality of this insane plan is successfully challenged before we throw out the baby with the bathwater. We certainly know our brave provincial Liberals haven't the jam to actually debate it in the house. Along with their promises of accountability and openness, that too has gone out the window.

Have you spent any time in downtown Edmonton lately?

GDP isn't a decent measure of anything other than the number of moral compromises we've been making for a bag of tarnished silver. Alberta certainly has shown the way on that front.

DO you suppose TILMA will lower the price of a phone call in Calgary or raise it in Vancouver?

definitely something we want to emulate

http://thetyee.ca/Books/2007/03/06/DemocracyDerailed/

Or this

http://mostlywater.org/node/6332

BC is bad enough as it is. Hitching ourselves to this is insane.

A quote

And the source of this quote is? I'd like to go check the facts behind those numbers.

dowtown Edmonton

Edmonton is a far superior city to either Vancouver or Victoria.
It has more community spirit in one finger than both hands of either of the BC Cities.
Yet, we will welcome you flaky BC liberals into our nation if you want to get real.
But we don't really need you, so go with the eastern liberals if you want.
Join the Dionne crowd, we don't have a problem with that. We don't really think that the Liberal Party of BC is conservative. We know that they are liberal. So FU.
The writing is on the wall. Alberta's going and if BC wants to come along, fine. But we don't really need you for anything.
When Alberta wanted to muse on sending a pipeline to Prince Rupert to keep the Americans honest, the idea was vilified by some. So FU, we can go down through Chicago.
More fool you, BC liberals.

Who's we Ron?

Edmonton and Calgary are both dumps. Places with more liquor stores per square mile than any other Canadian city.

You're more than welcome to Alberta Ron, move back anytime.

What does that actually mean? Muse on sending a pipeline to Prince Rupert? do you do that Fedex Ron, or what?

Alberta Bored

And yet you continue to live out here in BC eh Ron?

By the way, what does the Tyee editor think of you getting banned and then returning under a different handle?

You don't see Coyote stooping to that. Nor do I see any of your right-wing friends complaining about your circumventing your banning.

How hypocriticly cozy.

i think you're too sensitive

i think you're too sensitive g, and i've never considered the word 'lefty' a slur, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask all the other lefties out there if they consider that word a slur? just got in from hockey g. scored a beautiful breakaway goal. faked right and went left to the backhand. nothing better.

the truth about "booming" Alaberta

Alaberta's boom is so much hogwash. You have to go just a little north of Ft. Mac or go take a look at the ex-woods around Hinton; count the caribou, moose and deer carcasses at the side of any road; and count the pulp mills up the west side of the province to see that it's massive pollution and destruction that is fueling this artificial boom.

The lakes are being used up.

Yeah, some are getting rich. They are in the minority. Conoco-Phillips and all the other Investors are getting filthy rich, showered with our resources for practically free. Along with tax deferrals (so they don't pay any) and Harper's grants, these guys are getting richer than God. The average guys are barely making enough for a short time of the year and are living on unemployment insurance the rest of the year, financed by the rest of us. Some contractors (the onwers) are wwll off, too.

Then go to Fort McMurray's tar sands. Through watering eyes, you can see those smoking, seeping pits and the depressing highrise trailer park gulags their workers live in. You can hear Mother Earth's death rattles when you crest the hill out of Ft. Mac. You can taste it long before you get there--and long after. Your breathing stiffens.

The remaining forests in the immediate area are dead, or limping towards death and all show signs of acid rain. There are few signs of wildlife. The wind takes this carcinogenic crap everywhere.

Seismic crews are exposed to only incessant frostbite and overwork, rather than the pollution. But their wages are pitiful--mostly ranging from $8-$10 an hour. If they get sick or hurt, they are fired. The Medics who dare treat them are sent away and corporate-friendly ones placed in their stead. They may get only one first aid case in the 21 days they're there. Everyone knows not to go and see them. WCB in Alaberta is toothless.

They have hiring squads--almost like press gangs--that wade around the homeless in our western cities and recruiters in Newfoundland and New Brunswick where unemployed fishermen and victims of corporate bankruptcies get sucked into signing on, thinking they'll work from November to April, anyway. Not always so! You can be let go on a whim, or if you worked hard and got the job done faster.

The homeless hired on are so grateful for the job. Many of them have significant handicaps (schizophrenia and various types of learning disability --especially reading and writing difficulties), recovering addicts or have been injured by other ruthless employers before and have had extreme difficulty finding work at all. Some have been homeless. They are grateful for the chance to prove themselves. They want to work. And they are willing to work hard and long for the low wages. Alas, for many of them, their bodies have been malnourished for too long to be able to work that hard and that long. They collapse and are promptly fired. If the attending medic dares send them to the hospital or transfers them to one of the area's private ambulances, there is interference and the injured/sick person is boomaranged back to the work site! (The private ambulances inveigle the injured to sign a waiver, which few of them can read, never mind understand what it is they ae signing.) The medic, of course, is shipped out, to be replaced with a corporate-friendly one. It is the 30s all over again. I mean the 1830s. There are deaths you never hear of...

And this is what Campbell and his supporthosers want for us.

Alright G

I'm going to continue to call you a leftie. I don't mean to offend you, you can call me a "rightie" all you want. It merely saves a few seconds.

I don't read anything from the CCPA. Like I don't read anything from the Fraser Institute. They are both pushing an agenda, and while I agree with much of what the FI has to say, I realize that and don't put any stock in their surveys or reports. They are left and right wing "think tanks". I've never used anything the FI has published as fact.

Globe and Mail and Canwest doesn't know anything either. They are a bunch of journalists and editors. Hardly a bunch of world and economic experts.

You're correct,

You're correct, Marysue....Alberta is in a terrible mess both ecologically and financially, but the ideologues are swooning about their phoney GDP.

Their so called "debtfree" status is a lie and coverup of the province's infrastructure fallig apart from neglect, to the tune of $100. billion, while the multinationals are taking out benefits by the computer load. I have this from a leak from top government sources.

Almost the same is happening here. The overloaded ore trucks are breaking up our roads, with deep ruts in the pavement, taking our natural capital out of the country, without any sign of repairs, or enforced laws.

Even the lines on our road haven't been painted until September last year and the brush and trees that have been cut 3 years ago are still piled up, lying by the roadside waiting for a good forest fire to spread faster, while the ore trucks are roaring by at $500,000 per, out of BC, with only a few jobs, working 12 hour shifts, to show for them.

Ranchers are going broke every day, because of the lousy prices for cattle, depressed and controlled by a few multinationals, so they can sock it to the public in the supermarkets.

Yet, we hear the song of the "booming economy" constantly, every day.

Ed Deak.

Cappy

So.....you "devine" your vast store of knowledge directly from the gods.......?

Cappy

If you don't familiarize yourself with the facts of what your system is doing to 80% of the families in this country - even as the lives of the 20% of families who are making some progress at the cost of a decent reasonable life with said families - then how can you hope to keep up your end of a logical and reasoned debate?

That's the problem with the way you do the math Cappy. You always forget the other side of the equation and it keeps coming back to bite you in the ass.

Think about why you NEVER win an argument on any of these matters.

And that’s the reason why you always tend to revert to type and start calling everyone lefties. In addition, I think that’s why you keep coming back here like a little boy who’d love to play this new game of real debate and actual conversation – but you can’t quite figure out the rules. Just like Ron, Cappy. You know something’s happening, but you don’t know what it is, Do you, Mr. Jones?

Pretty sad. I think you should sit down and read the CCPA Report AND the stuff from the Fraser Institute. I did. Moreover, I'm convinced that it's the Fraser Institute hacks (and people like you who believe in this nonsense for NO RATIONAL REASON) who are clearly in the wrong. Check out the people like David Frum and Conrad Black and a whole barn full of others who believe this nonsense. Read the other kinds of things they write and say. Check out Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. Read the NEW YORK SUN and the Washington Times. Have a look at what they’re saying about John Edwards in the Wall Street Journal. These are people and attitudes you WANT to run with?

Furthermore, the information in the CCPA report has been confirmed independently and comes from publicly available data.

This isn't a question of spin - it's a matter of facts.

Ed has been trying to tell you this stuff for months and the information in this report simply confirms it.

I don't expect you to change your position, but at least have the good grace to recognize that the only reason you're a fan of this system is that - somehow or other - you've managed to become one of the very few winners. That's all. Creating a whole economy on the basis that someday, somehow, someone, will hit black 23 is just plain nuts.

Eliot

Yes, because the issues are not about right or left. They are about justice and equal treatment. You rightistas use "leftie" totally out of context. (whereas I, on the other hand, use "rightista" correctly, and with all it implies)

There's no political right,

There's no political right, or left, but the same power elites who are using religious, and ideological theories, to justify and legalize their greed, as crimes as "divinely" ,or "ideologically" ordained rights as "aristocracies" and now the fashionable "wealth creators" to steal.

Some new 140 billionaires were "created" last year around the world, while millions were destituted, tens of thousands committed suicide and 30 million starved to death, which shows the extent of this conspiracy to defraud.

Ideologies are dead and if they not, they should be killed today, as they all have become conspiracies to defraud.

Ed Deak.

Aplogies.....I'll have to do

Aplogies.....I'll have to do some proof reading.....

Ed Deak.

Rick and G

I scour the headlines, I read the articles here (for a different perspective), I read stuff from the AP. I read business news. I read factual stuff. I don't read editorials, other blogs and agenda driven information. I like to make my own opinions, not have them fed to me.

The fundamental difference between me and you is this 80%/20% thing. While I agree that the top 20% are gaining a bigger piece of pie, the pie is growing. I saw an article at Forbes which ranked Bill Gates as the 8th (I think) richest American in history, not the first. Although his 80B net worth is 80x what Rockafeller was worth around 1900 - Rockafeller's wealth represented a bigger % of the Country's wealth. By a fair margin too.

I believe that things are as good as they've ever been for 90% of the population, though you're right, that 20% is at the top is enjoying it the most. People are wealthier, living longer, having the highest standard of living than we've ever had.

G, you measure everything against the rich. That's all you care about, what the rich have. Well, if you'll look around you might see that everybody else is doing pretty well too.

Cappy, I wish you had seen

Cappy, I wish you had seen Canada in the '50s and '60s before you make such propagandistic, silly statements.

There were no fodbanks, because they weren't needed, until about 30 years ago, when the neoclassical theory started getting hold and but have been growing in leaps and bounds ever since, with the growing number of millionaires and billionaires.

The cancer rate was 2%, no children had any cancers, leukemia and breast cancers were virtually unknown, diabetes were about the same rate, and there were no medical waiting periods until about 20 years ago, when the chemical poisoning of people by the food giants became an epidemic.

We grow much of our foods, but even our limited grocery bill doubled in the past 5-6 years, but our pension grew only by a few points.

What will happen, when the worthless US dollar will finally crash, as it should have done years ago, but is still held up by the speculators until they can get rid of their holdings.

Ed Deak.

Not at all

I care about the facts and I know them. You don't

You've just admitted that you don't read the information upon which we could base a reasoned debate.

People, the average ordinary everyday people, (the vast majority of Canadians) are not doing better and they've been going downhill in real terms since the 70s. And it’s time they woke up to that fact and laid the blame for that situation on the doorstep of guys like you who stagger around wearing rose-coloured glasses whose lenses are so thick they can’t see a damn thing any more.

You're the one who looks to the rich for a standard my friend. I don't look to them for anything because I know the top 2-3% of the folks in that category want to keep the rest of us from believing their lies instead of understanding the facts.
And then doing something about it.

Guys like me are your worst nightmare because we don’t drink the Kool-aid you do. And you know it. That’s why you keep coming back here – you can’t understand how people who are obviously a lot smarter than you are don’t buy the Pavlovian rewards you think you’ve worked so hard to ‘earn’.

Go ahead and continue to live in the dark, but when the house of cards falls down around us, don't come to me and apologize - because it will be too late for all of us.

The last thing I want is to be rich. I couldn't stand the hypocrisy of pretending I 'deserved' it.

Sorry, you really DO have a lot to learn.

But keep on comin' back. You make a wonderful target.

Oh, have you checked the level of child poverty in this province lately?

Just another 'fact'.

But kinda uncomfortable for you - you think?

The old left/right debate is

The old left/right debate is a diversion. As Ed says, the problem is not horizontal, it's vertical.

It's simply astounding how deluded some people are by the spin of numbers and statistics mouthed by puppets. How can they be so blind to the reality all around them, the homelessness and poverty that gives the lie to their fantasy?

Speaking of statistics, fantasy dwellers, here's one you'll never hear from your heroes: the total debt in Canada exceeds the money supply by 3 to 1. And growing. This is our fascist money system at work, covertly transfering our common wealth into private pockets while the left/right marches on into a dead end.

errata

Me too Ed - re proofreading

This sentence "I don't look to them for anything because I know the top 2-3% of the folks in that category want to keep the rest of us from believing their lies instead of understanding the facts."

needs to have the "from" removed from it.

Then it reads like this:
I don't look to them for anything because I know the top 2-3% of the folks in that category want to keep the rest of us believing their lies instead of understanding the facts.

Which makes the point, and, in bold type, emphasizes it too.

You're too much, Cappy

Yes, debating anything is useless. Our provincial libs have thought of everything, as always. Lets all just blindly follow and swallow for Cappy's Libs know whats best... always!

So lets not debate! After all, nothing will ever get done... (yawn)

Still waiting for one solid reason why we should align with Alberta's owned resources by U.S. born multinationals...

Another drull repeat.

Clearly, this is where Cappy shows his true colors. Its me, I, mine instead of we, our, us. Cappy only thinks of himself, like any other trueborn Capitalist. Me first. "If it is of no benefit to ME personally, I'm against it." Who cares about what will happen to the rest. Does this about sum you up, cappy?

CN is now running it very profitably and paying BC a lot of tax.

Gimme numbers. Prove it. Otherwise, prove BC isn't getting peanuts in revenue compared to the BC rail days. You're all talk, Cappy as usual.

Ever sold Amway by chance, Cappy? How can readers take this guy seriously. I'd comment on his other posts, but its a waste of time. He's nothing more than a dullard cheerleader with nothing for facts.

Discuss

You actually aren't G. The moment I felt like society took people like you seriously (and I don't say that as an insult, factual), is when you become my worst nightmare.

I bet you can't have a conversation with 95% of this world. Neither can I. I could care less about Briney Spears, gossip etc. The one thing that keeps me linked to society is my Canucks. My dad had seasons tickets since 1970 and we still hold those buggers today!

When you start walking down the street and are able to have people listen to your rants, well, that is when I'll start getting scared!

I come here for perspective. I've said that. I firmly believe I live the best life on earth. I like to know what different people are thinking and this has proven to be a very interesting site. I haven't heard some of the rants people like you pull off since, I used to sit around a listen to my buddies, huddled around a bong, talking conspiracies!!

I don't mind having these debates about the merits of Capitalism. I agree, the rich are getting richer. Some are falling through the cracks. Though, I firmly believe, and the statistics will prove it - that 90% of the people are better off.

We need to do better with the other 10%. I believe in a libertarian society, where the tools exist to succeed. Our motivation should be to get people working, creating their own wealth, saving for their own retirement. People need to take care of themselves. Only when that occurs, and the 30% or so of the population gets off the lazy gravy train, can we really devote the resources to helping those that truly need it.

Marysue's comments:

While I agree with the largess of your assessments, wage increases have come in seismic. All one has to do is pick up a daily Calgary newspaper to see that the wages to seismic workers has gone up to the $15 per hour level. As well, working conditions have improved. But other than being hired caretakers (and some might say were getting amply paid until you have to drink the water and breathe the air or build a home) and builders for U.S. mulinational corp profits, the real money is going south. The tax money is going south. Royalties? What royalties. If or when oil corps have to pay royalties from lack of creative accounting, the bought off govy of Alta will go back to the old way's of which Alta was the 2nd lowest in the world at 2.50 a barrel.

Its like this with the oil patch. The south of Alberta has pretty much been maxed. The wells have been drilled and piped, there's not much else to explore, and there will be no last major expansion. Its already occured. All that is left for the south is depletion and sooner or later, with natural gas, give or take within 10 years, the south will be 30 to 40% of what it currently produces today. People think this is inaccurate, but all one has to do is watch reserves of Canada's largest oil companies to know and see it. Encana keeps coming to mind.

So that leaves the north. And while Marysue describes an environment that isn't quite that deveastated, it will be.

These Capitalism types. Everything is just fine... til the oil and gas runs out and things stop moving. And homes aren't heated and people start burning furniture to stay warm. People think... "it'll never happen here." Better think again, and think where you live. Most of us live in the city. Where will people be screwed? In the cities and when the oil and gas finally does run out (and it will run out, its not endless, even as guys like Truman think... too many people, too much 3rd world industrialized growth), and the forests are cut down, and the waters are polluted, where are they going to go? What good will money do then?

But we've always got the Capitalisms to tell us "don't question. Don't debate. Its a waste of time... lets make money!!! Its every man for himself."

Look at what good we've gotten with our corporate world. Diabetes is now 1 in 16. Thats 6.25% of the population in Canada... and rising. Has anyone ever thought to ask why? It certainly won't be Cappy. At least, until it effects him.

And cancer rates? Look at the foods in the stores and what ends up on our plates. How much of it is natural? How much of it is chemical or man made? And then ask yourselves... geez, are corporations who don't think much past profit, really good for us? Guy's like Cappy will die young without even beginning to ask why or acknowledge the fact that he did in fact, die young due to no debates or thinking about the "next guy or gal". He's just a what's in it for me, porker like all the rest of the pigs at the trough. Sad. What a waste.

Brain!

I haven't seen you for a while. Or, is this you G, re-assuming the brain identity after you got busted with Alci?

I've said time and time again, the motivation of capitalists is not the beauty, it is the results that are beautiful. There is no doubt that capitalists want to make money!!

Its the benefits that result from their quest to make money - i.e. employment, spending, etc. etc. which is truly wonderful! The best part is 90% can do it! It doesn't take a genious to be successful in this world. You have to be smart to be a Dr, sure. To run a successful operation takes drive, passion but more than anything an appetite for risk....

Briney Spears

Is this some kind of dophin movie star?

You still haven't read the material, have you?

And you still haven't a clue what you're talking about, do you?

Well, enjoy the Canucks - they are slightly less of a time waster than conspiracy theories.

Keep spinnin' dude. I'll let you know when the ball falls on black 23.

doesn't take a genious to be successful

That's for sure, you can't even spell the word.

When all else fails drop back on old habits. C'mon cappy, you can do better than that, surely.

I thought you'd taken a vow to actually discuss issues and stop telling tall tales.

Now, let's try again: How is it that 80% of Canadian families are falling further and further behind the 20% who are managing - by running their lives on a 24/7 treadmill - to make some progress?

Brain

I've made a very successful living asking why. I've asked why and I know the answers. I'm at ease with the ill effects of Capitalism.

You know Brain, this is the best system we've got. Its nowhere near perfect, but there are none better.

I don't mean to use the Communist Russia analogy and I realize its at the far end of the spectrum. However, I'll always remember reading, when Communism was in its final days, the pro-commies in response to peoples outcries about having to wait 20-30 minutes in line at the local soup kitchen for tastless food responded, "well, we all have to wait the same amount of time and eat the same food".

G/Brain - just because we all have to eat the same food and wait the same time for it - doesn't mean its good.

CCPA

G, I told you. I don't read stuff from the CCPA. End of Story.

G

80% are falling behind the 20%. We're all running on the same track! Some are simply faster than others...we're all moving forward though.

I ask you, why do you care if 20% is continually doing better. Why? 70% are still moving forward and doing better themselves.

Let's assume I'm right about 70% are doing better, though not as "better" as the top 20%. Why does it matter how much better that 20% is doing? Isn't good that 90% is doing better?

This is what makes one dullard and slow

Its more like 100% of the population is worse off, slowpoke. You won't see it because you are too stuck in the now. Cappy, you just don't see what it will be like 20 or 30 years from now. If you did, you would see the stupidity to your quote. People aren't better off and the big reason for it is because WE ARE PRODUCTS OF OUR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

Our food has turned for shit. Our air is now stale and filling with smog more every day. Our ozone is thinning. Our forests are becoming decimated. Our water, if not for global warming which will have its own ugly future with earthquakes caused by ice melts and weight displacments, ugly weather, nano's heating up with new bugs and plagues people haven't thought of, yes our water, even with all of this new fresh stuff running off the glacial melts, is deteriorating. Our ocean floors are becoming devastated. Our marine life isn't just dying, its disappearing. Our coral reefs are dying world wide. And we'll look at a flick and say, "no, its not happening", but it is. Just a little to slow for the slow pokes to catch on, is all.

And you have the audacity to preach to the masses that capitalism is the answer? That were better off? Why, cause you and you daddy have fresh paint on your rides to a hockey game? Grow up.

20 years from now, it won't be so pretty. That paint will fade and there won't be any new owners, cause the world won't have juice we thought we'd always have to make them run.

You're not getting it, Cappy and that makes you slow. You've had a full year or more on this site to get it, and you still don't because, as the blind brainwash the blind, its still all about you. And that's sad. 'cause when the environment takes that ugly turn for the worst, pushed beyond managable threshholds that can support life and that great wave of death comes, dummies like you will be out there cheerleading with comfortable lies, "we did the best we could."

When you put your economical praise to a 50 year timeline that ends 30 years from now Cappy, and envision where it will all lead, are you going to be the dullard dummie who will tell us now, "who cares? A damaged environment won't effect me in my lifetime."

Its no small wonder why some of us look at the "true capitalists in the world" as those who eat their young. No thought for the inheritance of their children, just live for the day, their lives nothing more than a self getting mechanism. What a waste...

You don't understand Cappy

The only way the 20% are managing to keep up is by living like slaves to sustain a ridiculous lifestyle, holidays in Eivissa or Aruba and junkets to Vegas.

They are tied to their laptops and blackberries, shake hands with their kids when they drop them off at a private school, and their wives often find out after 25 or 30 years of marriage that, well, they just aren't up to Gucci standards any more.

You call that living? You call that progress. Not to detract from any of the excellent points the brain makes as well.

The life Ed lives at Big Lake, that's work too - but there are some positive rewards at the end of that kind of life. All your treadmill leads to is alcoholism, cancer and an early grave.

But don't let me stop you.

And, if you won't read the facts - all based on readily available and verifiable statistics - you can't get in the real game.

So, buzz off. Enjoy the canucks - they're pitched to your level.

Hey G

Now you actually care about the rich and their blackberries, whether they die young? You acknowledge these people devote their lives to it...money doesn't just appear!! In the meantime, that blackberry activity is creating employment!!

Does this not deserve a little extra?

G

Have you ever been to Vegas?

Are you a Canucks fan?

Now, back to TILMA

This is Colin Hansen's stock response to criticism:

"TILMA's critics are completely off the mark in their opposition to this agreement," he said in a recent letter. "The results will be less red tape, fewer duplicate costs for workers and businesses, and a stronger economic foundation."

This is the best he can come up with. Sad really. No facts, no examples, nothing.

TILMA could prove to be more beureaucratic for some municipalties as they'll have to hire purchasing departments to deal with the increased number of tenders. Some municipalties would have to increase taxes to deal with this. See:
http://www.oakbaynews.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=23&cat=23&id=846341&more=
Not a very smart deal this TILMA is it?

The rich are people too cappy

I even care about you.
I like hockey - I actually play it though, along with soccer. In addition, I run - when I can find the time.

I have never been to Vegas and I'm planning to stick to that agenda. I don't think all these stupid blackberries do much but create money for RIM. Moreover, given the mess they've made of their accounting for the last 3 or 4 years, I'm not even sure about that. You can’t believe anything a company says anymore – even when they’ve been audited by a company that isn’t an offshoot of Arthur Anderson.

I do know that a bunch of hot-shots (maybe we should call them RIM shots) who work there have been banned from playing stock market big shots on the TSE though.

Another link regarding tendering.

Here's another link regarding tendering under TILMA. It seems many communities have concerns about TILMA. Any goods purchased by communities/municipalities over $10 000 would have to go to tender in both BC and Alberta. Say goodbye to local purchasing.

http://www.thenorthernview.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=142&cat=23&id=847449&more=

Errata

Arthur Anderson s/b Arthur Andersen. I was my first employer. I was once an auditor.

It figures

Thanks for the correction. Anything else I got wrong?

In a few minutes I'm gonna post a legal opionon about TILMA. If you wanna stick around.

Here we go:

1. TILMA imposes a blanket prohibition on all government measures that “operate to
restrict or impair” trade, investment or labour mobility unless such measures are exempt under the scheme. It is difficult to conceive of a government action, whether legislative, regulatory or programmatic, that would not violate this broad constraint. In this regard, the net cast by TILMA is larger than that of NAFTA and the GATS combined.

You may recall that's exactly what Ed has been writing on these pages.

2. TILMA defines “government” very broadly to include all aspects of provincial
government, including its agencies and Crown corporations; but also to include
municipalities, school boards and other publicly funded academic, health and social
service entities. This means that under TILMA, all actions taken by these institutions, agencies and public bodies must also comply with the sweeping restrictions imposed by the regime.

Worried yet? Just wait!

3. To ensure that government and public institutions comply, TILMA incorporates the most pernicious feature of NAFTA, which accords private parties the right to invoke
arbitration to challenge measures that are alleged to offend TILMA constraints,
including the right to claim up to $5,000,000 in damages arising from each such government measure. Because private claims may be unilaterally asserted by countless individuals and corporations, they are likely to proliferate and exert enormous pressure on governments to abandon or weaken a broad and diverse array of public policies, laws, practices, and programs.

That's enough for this post - but there's more to come.

TILMA - is this what YOU want, as a citizen of this province?

If not, maybe you should call your MLA - no matter where he or she gets marching orders from. April 1 is just around the corner.

Are you wondering why, yet, the Liberals don't want to talk about this deal in the HOUSE?

Litigation

Say for example, 20 challenges are brought forth by individuals or companies charging unfair restrictions, there is $100 million worth of potential payout we the taxpayers are now on the hook for. Get that? We, the tax payers. It's not Campbell and Hansen who have to pay out, it is us.

How is it even legal for a government to open us, the taxpayers up to litigation for decisions they have imposed upon us? This alone should be first, grounds for recall, second, grounds for a landslide removal of the Campbell Liberals from office. If only more British Columbians were wise to what is happening to this province.

And here's a couple more reasons -

4. The overwhelming majority of government measures that are subject to TILMA have little if anything to do with inter-provincial trade, investment or labour mobility, per se.

Rather, these measures, which run the gamut from environmental controls to health care insurance plans, were established to serve broad public or societal purposes and apply equally to persons or companies whatever their respective province of origin. While such measures may impact investment, trade and labour mobility, these effects are indirect or tangential to their essential purpose. Nevertheless, because of these indirect effects, they may be challenged for offending TILMA prohibitions.

Some stuff in there you might be concerned about?

5. TILMA also expands the scope of foreign investor rights that can be asserted under NAFTA. Moreover, these rights are bestowed on US and Mexican investors without any reciprocal gains for BC or Alberta investors in the US or Mexico. TILMA establishes a new high-water mark of investor entitlement that can now also be claimed by US and Mexican investors in consequence of NAFTA guarantees of National Treatment.

We really need more international investors like out own cappy in this province, ya think?

And now a few words of conclusion:

Taken together, the likely impacts of TILMA represent a profound assault on the capacity of present and future governments in BC and Alberta to serve the public interest.
Furthermore, there is no plausible rationale for TILMA, for as we know, Canada is a free
society in which people are free to live, work and invest anywhere they choose. There are no customs stations along provincial borders and no tariffs of any kind on inter-provincial trade.

Moreover, inter-provincial trade is a federal responsibility and provincial measures that interfere even indirectly with such trade have been consistently struck down by the courts. The claim that we must remove the few, and largely warranted, barriers to inter-provincial trade, investment and labour mobility that do exist, is no more than a smokescreen for a corporate agenda that seeks to substantially reduce the role of government as regulator and service provider.

Nevertheless the Conference Board of Canada has published several papers promoting the TILMA cause, and the Council of the Federation has congratulated British Columbia and Alberta on its initiative.

Surprised they'd like it? Surprised Cappy does?

My very great appreciation to

Steven Shrybman of Sack Goldblatt Mitchell, LLP.
Ottawa, Ontario.

kl

Nice working with you.

You make excellent points - I think Cappy may be speechless.

... "if only half the gains are realized", what's to celebrate?

realisticman, you are so funny!

You are celebrating an agreement which even you, without hesitation, immediately recognize as being at least 50% wrong:

And you're probably wondering about the other half of TILMA, too. Or you should be.

Get serious, r-man. You've been promised Pie-in-the-Sky. Rejoice? Celebrate? Are you sure about that?

R-Man

I agree. I'm already making room in my wallet for this windfall we're all about to enjoy!!

Pulled my BCAA card out the other day - don't need it! Heck, if the car breaks down, buy another!!

Never mind Borat, we've got Cappy!

You, too, Cappy. You're so funny!

Do you have a swim suit like Borat's, too?

No? May I ask why? And why did you keep asking why when you already know the answer?

I think you definitely deserve a Borat swim suit, with TILMA written on it. Both items are two of the ill effects of Capitalism.

Likewise G West

Back to the task at hand, Cappy, if you will, I have some questions for you.

1. It would seem that TILMA actually creates beureaucracy, especially for small communities, regarding tenders. Now, for someone like yourself who seems to dispose regulation,how is this a good thing?

2. TILMA exposes taxpayers to up to $5 million challenges. This could get very costly for us, the taxpayers. How is this a good thing and why would a government expose its own citizens to trade challenges rather than protect them from trade challenges?

3. This so called windfall in economic activity is from estimates from the various ministries and businesses who had a stake in promoting TILMA. How can we take their estimates seriously when it is proven that there are very little inter-provincial trade barriers to begin with? Where will all of this economic activity come from?

Perhaps I can help, kl

Since Cappy's taking a pause for reflection on how great banks have been for his life as well as all of the lesser than corps who keep everyone fed and clothed to Cap standards, I'll be happy to fill in for a spell.

If a municipality is downstream or downwind from a US multinational pulpmill's bad tastes and bad smells and tries legal action, the municipality will be faced with damages in terms of compensation of up to 5 million, even if the municipality or town wins in court.

Since most municipalities don't have the kind of money to stop low grade gold and base metal mines from acid leaching from various mountainous regions of the countries tailing spills, or pulp mills or oil & gas spills or pipeline leaks, or transport spills, and factories, why, even a Walmart... business just keeps right on going! Everyone continues to make money, or risk living in the municipality that complains enough to lose it... The investor wins, the taxes get paid until the big tax raise comes in the municipality that complained next year and everyones happy... til they get cancer or coughs and hacks that won't go away, or unexplained drops in real estate value.

But the value of the investor! And the banks!!! And everyone knows all canadians own RSP's and mutuals that have financials, don't they? Surely we would all be suckers if we didn't. And then we, along with the banks and the corps who put each other up to making a buck for today without much thought for tomarrow... who needs regulations? We, as well as they (banks and corps) get to inherit the legacy of ravaged environments for the sake of a buck. Cause thats what they do, kl. They wreck the environment for a buck.

A quick look at what was once prestine forests in BC with google earth tells all. (it regenerates, they say... in about 100 years or more). Not alot left, when one really starts looking... factoring in the good wood thats left, the easy to cut wood. And what standing, the undesirable wood... hemlock... juvenilles... steeps... or can't build the roads cheap enough to get to the prime... yet. But that time will come. Were running out.

Yes, we should all just "trust the government". This link provided tells the story of trustworthy governments. The video is worth watching. People wonder why the Basi Virk trial isn't being covered. It probably won't go to trial. And if it does, it won't be covered by Canwest. Fifth Estate will touch it, when they've got time. Believe it or not, there are bigger issues and bigger crooks... like the ones behind the theft of BC gas, and Bush and Co. were behind it all the way with Teresen bought Morgan Kindle who has since been bought out by 5 firms, of which Goldman Sachs and Carlyle are two majors. There's money in war, eh? And when you can money on oil AND war, look out. Politicians really do bend over on the drop of a dime... and our now honorable federal trade minister David Emerson is one of them, directly involved with the sale of BC gas for a Teresen directorship.

Check out the vid on this link (and keep in mind what Cappy says, "don't question, don't debate, its all good. Its in 'our' best interests."

www.cbc.ca:80/fifth/lies/

Puts it into perspective.

Speaking of Basi and Virk

While I wait patiently for a response from Cappy I'll just mention in case anyone didn't see, and why would they it was the Sun afterall, BC Mary is mentioned today in Vaughn Palmer's piece.

Ventriloquist dummy Hawes

So according to liberal MLA Randy Hawes, TILMA has been the "subject of pretty wide consultation". Funny, but I don't remember much "consultation" while all of this was being "negotiated". I wonder if Hawes finds the Frasier Institute's comments on the whole issue to be "right wing diatribe". I do.

Open and accountable- yah right.

Ya think maybe this is actually turning into

Alternative media

Big hug for BC Mary and Robin Mathews.

And David Beers for making it all possible.

I'm off for a fine dinner....as long as it costs less than $12.00

Nice work everybody. Even you Cappy. You help the cause immensely, more than you know.

Hawes

It's interesting that Vaughn suggests googling BC Mary and to see Tielman's Tyee article for further information regarding Birk/Vasi. I wonder how short of a leash CanWest has him on. It just exemplifies the irrelevence of the MSM.

DJT, I saw that Hawes quote as well. I guess he forgot to mention that it was only widely consulted upon with the chosen business and academic elites.

That's about as sad as Glen Scobie's, Director of Trade and Competitenes Branch, response to me which stated that because there were consultations on the Agreement on Internal Trade, essentially that's good enough for TILMA. Gee, those conultations on the AIT were only 12 years ago!

He also rationalizes that there was no debate on TILMA because the Liberals have a mandate to govern and only introduces legislation when needed. I reminded him that the Liberals have less than a 50% mandate.

Remember democracy! (?)

Thanks, kl for the heads up re: Palmer's article in the Stun today. I hadn't had the chance to read it but did so after I read your post. Though you can tell he was on a short leash and qualified his statements several times, at least he wrote something.

Thanks also to BC Mary for her diligent pursuit of the Basi/ Virk case. Though I do not purport to be an expert on the matter, I have been following it with interest and have now taken to reading Mary's site on a regular basis. It is refreshing to know that at least some of us are trying to keep democracy alive in this province.

Capitalism

I don't mind having these debates about the merits of Capitalism. I agree, the rich are getting richer. Some are falling through the cracks. Though, I firmly believe, and the statistics will prove it - that 90% of the people are better off.

We need to do better with the other 10%. I believe in a libertarian society, where the tools exist to succeed. Our motivation should be to get people working, creating their own wealth, saving for their own retirement. People need to take care of themselves. Only when that occurs, and the 30% or so of the population gets off the lazy gravy train, can we really devote the resources to helping those that truly need it.

Well said. I couldn't have said it better.

seismic wages

I was just up on a couple or three seismic patches. Those guys and gals were getting what I said $8-10 an hour. None were making $15 an hour, except the bosses or the surveyors.

Good comments here, except, of course, from the rightwingnuts. Don't they just have tons of irrational rationale for keeping their ill-gotten gains, eh?

I smell a rat as gordo is

I smell a rat as gordo is bringing TILMA in on April 01, 07 and the BC Rail scandal court case is on April 02, 07
Will this draconian law (TILMA) have an effect on the case?

marysue is a liar

Marysue; you are making this up. The workers in Alberta are making a fortune.
These are blue collar workers. The salt of the earth that are doing better than the academics .
Is that your problem?
If you want barriers, I'll give you barriers. Barrier Alberta from the rest of Canada. That works for me. How about you?
Why not free the people? Labour doesn't belong to the left. The left screws most of labour.
Let labour find it's own level. Don't try to exploit them for the special interest groups, cloaked as protectors, when they are actually exploiters.

Ron Erwin

But if you "barriered" Alberta from the rest of Canada how would you get back in?

Besides, we'd just take you over. Calgary would be occupied by the van doos just to twist your cowboy hat in a knot.

???

IAMC, you're just plain funny!

Re: Marysue

No, shes right about everything she's saying IMAC, except the wages. Wages have taken a bump in seismic within the last 2 years. A quick look at what seismic wages are from companies advertizing in the Calgary Herald tell's all. There are likely still a few who pay the wages she's talking about, but that would be the bottom of the barrel. Wages have increased in seismic within the last 2 years, no question. There is competition for labour out there in Alta especially, and to a lesser degree, BC. How long it will last is up to the value of commodities.

Aside from this, calling someone a liar as IMAC does is rather harsh. It might even be worse than calling someone slow or dullard, if one catches the drift. But then again, a spade is a spade. IAMC is a self professed christian who has yet to learn or practice what it really means. Not quite Godless, just lacking the manners of someone who says he believes in one.

As for me, there is no need to be nice to fools. Its like the quote from realistic man that he fully agree's with above.

Those who can, do. Those who can't... teach.

Considering that 18.8% of the population is to young to work (according to govy stats Can and some still do), another 20% is to old, and a further 10% is too banged up, going to college, pregnant, nursing or just plain unhealthy, what realistic man is saying is that 30% of the remaining 50% of the population that actually does work is lazy, or 30% of the entire population should do more...

Last I checked, the unemployment rate in Canada was 6.1% based on reality. Its blowhard statements like this "quote" that irk me when they are actually agreed with. It tells me how disillusioned supposed "wealthy" people really are with the system and the rest of the population within this country, perhaps this world, one that reeks of self worshipping pride that they truly are better than and more ambitious than those who have less material wealth and if we were all like the realisticmans and cappys of the world, everyone would be wealthy. Typical "I did it all myself, built the roads and schools and languages and teachers and systems that made me what I am, did it all on my own."

Who wants to base a life on a belief that happiness can be bought?

Its so often the opposite of the way we think it is. Wealth is not determined by the size of a bank account or material wealth. Its based on friendship. On marriages that last not out of convienience, but true love. On children. On the soul connection to the highest value of all, life itself. Seldom will one find such a four letter word spoken freely and sincerely by those who butcher their environments for the sake of a golden calf and run others down as well as the truth itself to build themselves up.

Hits from a bong talking conspiracy?

At my camp fire, there's really only two ways of looking at it. Greedy capitalists are sick and need help, or someone should come along and end their misery. Since the sick often stay that way and suffering happens to be a human condition for various reasons, good old nature takes its course. Damaged environments over time, just stop sustaining life. Unfortunately, in the end, there are victims. There are always victims. Often, its generational. But this time, in this timeline of human history and the near future to come, with so many sick people out there thinking the same stinking thinking, the very environments that substain all life on earth will suffer.

The earth mother will become seriously ill and as such, all life for suffer or much of it will die needlessly. All life will suffer for the mistakes of these particular stupids who believe they are immune to it... because they worship themselves through money at everyone elses expense... Thats how it begins... but that certainly isn't how it ends. The dullard belief of every corrupt rich man is akin to the thief. "I won't get caught". And that, slowpokes, is nothing more than the beginnings of the same old ordinary, dullard historical repeat.

I doubt most people here on

I doubt most people here on both sides have even bothered to actually read the TILMA information and instead are relying on either the CCPA or Fraser Institute for their entrenched position.

For the supporters I think the value of TILMA is being overstated and for the opponents I think they are shamefully misleading and fear mongering. Basically about the most significant major item for TILMA is that it will be easier for Alberta skilled workers to come to BC. For example teachers. BC teachers could always be recognized in Alberta, however not vice versa. Under TILMA an Alberta teacher can now come to BC and have their Alberta teaching credentials recognized and start working in BC.

Of course if you are the BCTF and are trying to use the myth of a teacher shortage as a negotiation tool that tool has now been removed from your inventory. Not to mention if more Alberta teachers come to BC than BC teachers leaving (and this is the case) it makes it hard to argue that BC teachers are so hard done by when supposedly better paid Alberta teachers (according to the BCTF) are jumping at the opportunity to teach here in BC. Not surprisingly the BCTF strongly oppose TILMA, and the BCFED, ever keen to keep the BCTF as a member union and for good reason considering those massive dues, will do everything in the book to help promote the BCTF position.

Thus it should come as no surprise that BC Fed, through it’s Tyee website has taken aim against TILMA.

Still the Liberals should not be afraid to debate the agreement as it will impact some British Columbians.

Economic Boom

I was walking in to work the other day and noticed the police waking up the homeless people and asking them to leave. I thought to myself why are there so many homeless people when this province has been experiencing an economic boom for the last 4 years?

Rather than dealing with social and environmental issues that we are facing this government continues to create new schemes to put more money in the pockets of the wealthy.

Link to TILMA

Switek, what I find most galling about TILMA is the fact that it has opened tax payers up to trade challenges. This is absurd. BCFED did not tell me to feel this way. Nor did the CCPA. I also find it appalling that municipalities will be forced to tender purchases over $10 000. This will have a huge impact on small communities.

Municipalities all over BC are starting to wake up to the potential implications. Once they figure out what TILMA means for them I think we will see moe opposition. Seeing as TILMA won't cover municipalities until 2009, there is hope the Union of BC Municipalities will force the Libs to remove them from the agreement, seeing as they were never part of discussions in the first place.

Okay, here it is for those who have not read it: Click on the first PDF

http://www.gov.bc.ca/ecdev/popt/media_room/bc_ab_trade_investment_mobility_agreement.htm

Btw, where's Cappy? He hasn't answered my questions.

Now added to the tools for the other side

But an influx of Alberta teachers or workers looking for better wages and a better political climate won't be a tool used by the employers in contract negotiations? That should not be something the BCTF and union leadership should worry about? Such political manipulation should not be of concern? It is fear mongering?

I sense a little naivety in the last post here and I'm not even effected by any of this. Only the right-wing governments seem to slide toward complete removal of the significance of any borders and just for the free unfettered flow of capital. The masses are then subject to threats to their security and well-being from corporations who now can pack up and move any time they find an "easier place to do business" with less taxes and cheaper labour.

We are not ostriches.

TILMA will impact everybody,

TILMA will impact everybody, because, like the NAFTA already has, it robs people of their decision making powers.

E.g. In our neighbouring Williams Lake the "business friendly" council is panting, drooling and doing everything, even to spend $100,000 on lawsuits against opposing citizens, to bring a Wal-Mart store to town.

It is a totally stupid and irresponsible move, as it will severely impact and even destroy the economic system of the town, as it has hundreds of small towns in North America alone, but as elected representatives of the citizens, it is their right to do so. This is the point !

On the other hand, under the new and fraudulent free trade deals, like TILMA a business can and will sue to move anywhere, overrule local zoning and other bylaws and councils, stripping citizens of their democratic rights to stand up against them.

As UPS is suing against Canada Post's right to deliver parcels, as it cuts into their profits, therefore against the NAFTA rules.

Of course, they can't sue US Mail, but can in Canada and Mexico, as our carpetbaggers also can in the USA.

This is not democracy, but creeping and dictating, plain and simple fascism.

Anybody who can't see this must have some serious problems.

Ed Deak.

switek criticises from a limited view

Is there a better way of putting it? Since the Campbell government has come into power, education has been slashed dramatically in trades. A major part of the reason for TILMA's universality of BC and Alta's labor force is that the major cuts in education in trades and apprenticships that has taken place for over what 7 years now, has left skilled workers in trades in BC at an all time low at a time when they are beginning to peak in demand.

As a result, over the last 6 years, too many skilled workers have retired with to few skilled workers to replace them... as predicted. So TILMA is in part the governments response to their own cuts to purposely cripple BC union trade power by weakening BC's trade labor force in BC, while at the same time, solve the current trades labor shortage. This is not just a quick and ugly fix, but the number of skilled union labor in trades will continue to dwindle in this province and with it, so will the tax revenue that these what should have been BC skilled workers generate for BC tax coffers.

How much money the Campbell government saved in the immediate by cancelling skilled labor trade funding and sponsorship with their union busting policies for corporate concerns, will be offset by the amounts of labor from out of the province and country declaring their income taxes outside of the province of BC for work they've done here. In essence, the BC government saved money by slashing spending for the first 7 years or so, only to cripple their tax revenue base in the future and for the future governments to come that will inherit the mess.

TILMA is one way to fix the mess in terms of getting needed labor to BC... not necessarily professionals such as teachers who aren't in demand like trades are, where teachers are better off in Alta than they are in BC where the cost of living is cheaper and pay is likely higher, but for the labor in trades... labor that this government has done everything it can to discourage its homegrown labor force where it counts... with government spending cuts.

I hate to break it to posters like switek who take a limited view with teachers only. Its not teachers that are in demand in BC... its trades and taxpayers should be asking why it is that we have fewer BC residents in trades than more with an ever growing population, and why these same salaries will be taxed outside of the province instead of within BC's government coffers that are there to pay for trade and apprentiships. What Campbell has done for trades and unions in terms of weakening BC's own labor force is scandalous and switek talks about teachers like its the whole of the labor force?

The provinces have colleges and universities for a reason... to develope the skills of provincial residents in all occupations to secure their own provincial tax base. This government in this province has gutted spending in trades and apprenticiships to assinine levels. Its was predicted and seen from a distance years ago and now its arrived. BC has literally outsourced its training and education to trades, as well as its ability to be self sufficient in trades and the province of Alta would be only to happy to exploit it. Why not? Their workers with BC cheques will be paying taxes in Alta, after all. Their colleges and universities are busy because they are not only funded, but look after their labor base. Not in BC though. Not since Campbell.

Its the same with every inept government. Deregulate. Industry doesn't need regulations... gets in the way of making money. Slash spending where the impact isn't immediate for a few years... save a buck for the now and leave the hangover for the next government. Privatize and sell everything off for directorships.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/us_cda_border_mine

And if you like this for a misleading headline (its not the Republicans that want to stop this kind of horseshit, its the Democrats). Republicans would be all for making a buck. No difference with this government. BC? For sale for money regardless of future cost to its inhabitants and environment. Campbell is a joke.

TILMA Impact

Good Post Ed!

That is one of the big problems with TILMA. It takes away the rights of local governments to decide how their community will look. Those decisions will now be in the hands of business. Why anyone would think TILMA is a good agreement is beyond me.

Afraid to debate

Switek

I suspect one of the reasons that Liberal MLAs aren't willing to debate TILMA in the Legislature HAS a lot to do with the fact that most of them haven't read it.

As always, this is ceo government and the orders come from the capo. The boys and girls in the front bench (and the back bench) are just taking orders.

I've read the deal, cover to cover - and it's a bad one...you ought to read it yourself - and not just the executive summary.

And, about the teacher shortages in BC. What shortages are you talking about? I know literally dozens of fully qualified young teachers who can't get off the sub board. If Alberta teachers think coming to BC is going to be a panacea - they have a nasty surprise awaiting them.

I'd be much more likely to turn your analysis on its head and suggest this is just another way to get well-qualified people to work more for less.

Sadly.

This government ran on a promise of being accountable. Seems they've forgotten that, big time.

Get reading.

Already TILMA has been

Already TILMA has been starting I live in a 4 storey limit on all buildings but low and behold Broadway and Maple St a 7 story building is going up?
The old IGA on Broadway and Maple they tried to put in a Home Depot but they were pationed out now with TILMA?
http://www.therealnews.com/web/index.php

petitioned

petitioned

cappy says: "money doesn't

cappy says: "money doesn't just appear!!"

Oh? Then perhaps you could tell us where it comes from.

you're even more incoherent

you're even more incoherent tha usual bc dude. also as uninformed.

And you'd be the one to remark about it

Wouldn't you El.
C'mon. You were doing so well.

Try to actually discuss the issue - if you have any thoughts about it.

All part of the neocon plan.

Somepone once wrote that there are two principles which govern almost everything capitalists do and how supportive governments behave. The first is that capital must be able to move at will. The second is that there must always be a supply of free labour. Consider how the movement of capital has been made easy by Free Trade, globalization and the harmonizing of regulations. Now labour has not bee free as such but over the years labour Unions have been very effective in preventing enterprise from exploiting labour.

Now that capital can move freely and put pressure on labour to reduce its demands what better way to reduce labours power than by flooding the market with labour form other jurisdictions.

Do you remember how they all aid that social programs were not at risk with FTA. Since then it has been an endless struggle to just get the basics in the areas of Health,Education and the "social safety net". We are suppose to trust them with TILMA?

It is all part of the ideology of the right and Campbell and his folks are in there right up to their arm pits.

Local MLAs on Hydro & Tilma/Municipal resolution

Hello everybody,

I remember, a few years ago, a most frustrating email correspondence with "my" MLA, Randy Hawes, where he reiterated, time and time again, that Hydro was "not being privatized."

At a recent talk by SFU Professor John Calvert about the billions for which BC taxpayers are now on the hook to enrich private companies exploiting run-of-the-river projects, this same Randy Hawes said he "had faith" and "believed" this was all for the best. Presumably we were to do the same and join the ranks of the faithful, and grateful.

The MLA for the neighbouring provincial constituency, Michael Sather, pointed out the flaws in Mr. Hawes arguments, noting that the private profit was to be at public expense.

I congratulate Mr. Sather for speaking up in the legislature. The vote, of course, was defeated, but I believe there is still time to spread the word. There is a sample resolution for municipal governments via the COC site that could be useful, if accompanied by appropriate facts, reinforced by letters to the editor: http://www.canadians.org/DI/issues/TILMA/resolution.html

Keep those cards and letters coming!

thanks for your comments

Thanks to those who posted some comments in response. I would like to say that I think the post from The Brain is a very good one. He or She does a much better job explaining what TILMA is mostly about; making it easier for Alberta workers to ply their trades here in BC. The Brain also does a good job on the reasons why the Government is supporting TILMA as well.

I think those who oppose TILMA should just come out and state the obvious, TILMA could devalue BC workers. This concept people can understand, but the whole chicken little the sky is falling from TILMA routine is not working.

The tender part is a joke too, most municipalities already have purchasing policies in place that meet or exceed what TILMA contains.

I stand by my initial comments that TILMA is mostly an agreement that makes it easier for skilled Alberta workers to work in BC. Skywalker also made a really good argument who that helps the most; the employer.

Thanks for the compliment. :-)

The quick summary of TILMA is this:

Alta provincial governments sold out to U.S. multinationals decades ago. They've been corrupt for that long. As long as Alta standards of living are higher than the rest of Canada, Albertans don't complain. As long as the money is there, people go with the status quo. But what really irks me with how slow Albertans truly are to catch on to how corrupt their governments have been for the last 30 years or more, is that they couldn't for some reason imagine how wealthy they could really be if they owned their resources... like the Saudis.

The Albertan government, with its Harper proponents, has beated the drum of "foreign investment is the only way" for so long, and the bought media has been so effective in brainwashing the Albertan masses, that over 85% of Alberta's oil and gas is now U.S. owned and when one follows the markets, foreign ownership is continuing to increase. Last years M & A's were torrid.

What this means, is that all of the corporate taxes that could have ended up in Albertan or Canadian federal and provincial taxes, is now ending up south of the border. These taxes pay for the social systems everyone says we can't afford. They pay for education, healthcare, senior care, the works.

What people don't understand is that these corporate profits could have ended up in our coffers... the coffers of the provinces and nation of Canada. Instead, they end up south of the border. And these profits are staggering.

Albertans should be living like Saudis. Instead, they live like Albertans... caretakers for U.S. interests, believing crumbs make a cake.

And why? Try a series of corrupt governments that cry "smaller government", translated as deregulation, privatization of crown corps for directorships to MLA's or "other" forms of bribes, and as little "governing" as possible. This Campbell government has been no exception.

Its been hard to watch Alberta sell off its resources to the U.S. while its people are brainwashed by such spins as "foriegn investment is necessary (we don't have the money to do it ourselves)" and "deregulation of corporate doings is necessary" and "privatization is necessary" for these are slogans of crooks. And what makes them completely inept is when they say "smaller government is necessary", translated as "give greedy corporations the power and decentralize governmental structure to weaken the governance of future administrations, corporations rule us now".

When Ed Deak talks of the great neoclassical economical plan to take over and control all wealth and power, he's not kidding. And the U.S. born multinational CEO's and major shareholders responsible for this "movement" need their carpetbaggers.

Enter the Campbell Goverment. They are quite simply corrupt. And if their goverment doesn't end in corruption with the legacy of sales of BC rail, BC gas, the auction of BC Ferries without public consultation and likewise with TILMA, motions introduced like the corrupt Devine government to hide governmental information concerning the sales of BC's assets and deregulations as the corrupt Devine government did in the 80's and early 90's... (how quickly we forget Devines Conservative theft and ruin of Sask exceeding Montgomery) then it will lead one to believe that BC voters are as brainwashed as Albertans. It will mean that BC voters are too uneducated to recognize what an ideologically and morally corrupt government truly is. And if that happens, regardless of Carol James silence and Liberals winning votes by default because no one "worthy" ran against them... if this happens, that this province continues to elect a crooked two term goverment to a third, then it will leaved people like myself to say nothing more than this.

We shouldn't poop where we sleep. Even pigs know this much.

We make our own bed, we lay in it.

The brain

Thanks brain, for your excellent summary. I wonder if Vaugh Palmer is ready to report on this anytime soon? Like that would happen!

Vaughn Can't

'cause he would get his a*s fired. Threats (either direct or implied) work. That's why there is no incisive reporting anymore. Besides, with peoples' 12-nano second attention spans, it would be lost......

Foreign investment is the

Foreign investment is the temporary inflation of a country's money supply, now created by foreign banks using the resources of others for collateral, for the purpose of endless drain and exploitation.

Therefore no country that receives, or encorages, foreign investment needs any, because they have it right at home in the form of resources.

Anybody who ever owned a business knows that when you have resources, you have the way to raise your own investment for their development.

Therefore, foreign investment is a con job and fraud.

The "brain's" posting is an accurate description of this fraud.

Ed Deak.

Of course

foreign investment does help some people spoon the gravy off the top much more quickly - especially as those few folks have no vision or interest in a future that extends past their own bank accounts. And also of course, in this frenzied spooning, some small drops are scattered about, to be licked up eagerly by the scurrying sycophants.......

Interesting

A link from the Tyee main page:

An interesting theory indeed.

Anybody "too rich" isn't

Anybody "too rich" isn't supposed to need any benefits.

This is what all the capitalist propaganda of "those who can afford it" is about, for the elimination of Medicare and the replacement of pensions with RRSPs.

I any case, under Canada's so called "socialist" systems everybody is supposed to receive equal medical, legal, and OAP pension benefits, so what is all this nonsense about?

I'm sure Pattison is getting his monthly pension cheque just at I do.

Ed Deak.

Quote:The tender part is a

But why should municipalities be forced to tender contracts over $10 000, instead of the current $100 000? They were not part of the consulation process. This will hurt small communities.

I am not afraid TILMA will devalue me as a worker. I am sure some sectors in BC will suffer. In my line of work I know that in Alberta I would actually get paid almost half of what I do in BC. I know though that wages in my line of work will never decrease. Although, with Union Presidents like BC Ferries' who sold the members out with a no strike clause, one never knows these days.

The Brain has pretty much summed things up. Great job.

????

I don't think there are any revelations here...this bill was never framed as a social program. It was hailed for what it is, a reduction in red tape and an economic alignment with Alberta, which creates Canada's 2nd largest economy.

I see comments about how this only benefits employers. The first people to benefit will be business and accredited professionals. Our entire population will benefit as a result of the "trickle down".

Yes, ladies and gentelmen....this is done to create investment and give business more tools to compete. The BC Liberals care about economic growth. This is designed to spur growth!

TILMA is a positive thing.

Oh I don't know cappy

Sometimes knowing the individuals who're doing the cheering is about all you need to know when you measure the benefits of this sort of thing.

I still can't understand how a open and accountable government has so much to be bashful about...what's that all about?

But then, I don't think you've even read the deal - you can't call it a bill, this government doesn't even have the jam to present it in such form.

I think this turkey is about done and will be knocked off by the first court challenge.

TILMA is not a positive thing. It's just another blatant reach around to the perpetrators of the big sell off of BC resources, sadly.

Mr. Deak

Unfortunately, primarily as a result of Pierre Trudeau (who is somehow a Canadian Icon), we spent the pension.

CPP/EI has been treated for years as general government revenue. The baby boom is looming, we've seen tremendous monetary expansion and the system is poised to collapse.

I think the best solution, going forward is for individuals to have control over their EI/CPP funding. Each person that contributes should receive an annual statement of where their money is going and why, we should be sent a prospectus and this should be managed by private money managers. I think that there should be a weighting. Those who contribute less because they have a lower income, should see a disproportionate amount of the CPP contributions. For example, the bottom 5% should see 125% of their contributions - the top 10%, should only see 80% of their contributions.

There is no accountability. We pay tens of thousands each year to CPP/EI - who knows where any of it is going.

In the end, everybody will be set for retirement. We clearly can't trust ourselves to put it away on our own. We'll need the government to force us to save. Though, this system is a joke.

G - You're Right

You are right, G. You don't know.

Do you think this, or do you merely hope this?

Accredited Professionals

Speaking of accredited professionals, this is what the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants had to say about labour mobility:

Speaking to a Senate Committee, they said: “As provincial standards for regulation of professions are not uniform to begin with, this provision essentially makes the lowest of the standards that may exist in Canada acceptable as the base of qualification — essentially a race to the bottom, if you will. We do not believe that this is consistent with the obligation of legislators and governments nor of the professions themselves to ensure that the public is protected.”

Capitalism, so far all of your arguments have consisted on are: This will benefit us all. It is a good deal. You've offered nothing to the debate.

How about acknowledging the $5 million challenges it allows for, which taxpayers will be on the hook for if succusful. Do you think this is good for British Columbia and Alberta citizens and if so why?

I guess you're aware

Of the fact that four more Nortel executives (former ones in some cases) were indicted for numerous accounting fraud allegations this morning. Do you suppose the TSE will block their trading accounts too?

And, I'm sure you hadn't missed the fact that Conrad Black is in court in Chicago today.

Can you tell me some stories about huge companies and their 'accounting' professionals who aren't up to no good these days.

What you 'don't know' is quite amazing.

I used to know a solicitor who did a lot of work for the CICA. I know quite a bit.

Those who believe in

Those who believe in "trickle down" will be trickled on.

I don't know who came up with this, but it covers the situation very well.

There may have been some trickle down in locally based economies, but disappeared with globalization, because the benefits fly away, into the pockets of an international power elite.

To hell with them and their propagandists.

Ed Deak.

Capitalism

"There is no accountability. We pay tens of thousands each year to CPP/EI - who knows where any of it is going."

You really do spend a lot of time in the US, don't you? CPP is not like American social security. That money is invested and it is fully funded without any liabilities for something like 60-70 years. Americans look longingly at our CPP fund. There is no accountability with Social Security in the US, and Congress has stolen money being paid into it for years. Remember when Gore was laughed at with his "lockbox" analogy? They aren't laughing now! If you really wanted to know where that CPP money was, a little research on your part would be quite fruitfull. It is on the public record.

EI is a completely different story. It is basically a tax to support those whose jobs get eliminated, those who want to stay home with their infants (maternity/parental leave), and to prop up industry that requires seasonal workers. The government has generally collected much more than they pay out in EI payments. If you have any beefs it should be with EI. I for one want to support new mothers, however.

You critisize others far too much with "You don't know" when your ignorance seems far larger.

G West

What does any of this have to do with anything? There are some bad apples, no doubt. Though, the vast majority are good!

The problem occurred with the executives. Contracts often reward executives for P/E ratios and stock price. The incentive exists for them to cheat. Every once in a while you get a lemon.

Compensation committees across the world are tackling these issues.

This is one area, G, where I know a lot. I was groomed at Arthur Andersen.

I'm not sure

That's anything to brag about.

Having learned tricks at Arthur AndersEn, I mean Most people wouldn't even own up to THAT in an anonymous forum.

My view, you'll come up as empty in this area as you have every other. Nice Grooming!

I you think that the few little accounting diddles, and a few big ones, that have already come to light - are anything more than drops in the puddle that Corporate America (and that includes Canada) is trying desperately to hide and play down are no more than a few 'bad' apples; well, I have news for you.

This is not a case of a few bad lemons my friend, it's a tanker full of lemonade. A big tanker. I notice Halliburton has just moved its head office to Dubai.

An unrelated action. We ain't seen nothing yet. I'm watching the

How come they don't pay incentives for ethical behavior? You know perfectly well the boys in the back room get their take no matter what happens to the shareholders, Cappy.

"The Bush administration has been purging, politicizing and de-professionalizing federal agencies since the day it came to power. But in the past it was able to do its business with impunity; this time Democrats have subpoena power, and the old slime-and-defend strategy isn’t working." (Krugman, NYTimes, March 11. 2006)

I think we're just starting to smell the rot that sits below that shiny crust.

I'll just post small excerpts for you since you’ve proved so disinclined to read the more lengthy material - like the commentary of that Ottawa lawyer about the TILMA just back up the comments thread.

errata - and a question

Sorry folks, that Krugman quote actually comes from the March 12 NYTimes.

Unfortunately, it's behind the subscription wall. I would post the whole thing - mostly about another Bush appointee whose position seems to be on borrowed time....

But it's not really germane to the issue at hand, which I'll now get back to with a question for you Cappy.

Why, since there are few if any impediments to trade and commerce now, is the TILMA even needed?

I'd really like to take advantage of your deep and wide knowledge and hear what you have to say in support. Apart from that line about trusting the Premier, I mean. You've already used that one. And I don’t think it convinced anyone.

The conch is yours.

TILMA's critics are

TILMA's critics are completely off the mark in their opposition to this agreement. The results will be less red tape, fewer duplicate costs for workers and businesses, and a stronger economic foundation.

G, as you know I spend a fair bit of time in the US and a fair bit in Alberta too. Believe me when I say that borderless certifications simplifies things incredibly. When provinces or jurisdications have different standards, yet the same expertise, it becomes inefficient.

NAFTA isn't even what it used to be. Anytime we can cut red tape and streamline regulations between jurisdictions (where it makes sense) - I don't see why we wouldn't.

TILMA's critics are

TILMA's critics are completely off the mark in their opposition to this agreement. The results will be less red tape, fewer duplicate costs for workers and businesses, and a stronger economic foundation.

G, as you know I spend a fair bit of time in the US and a fair bit in Alberta too. Believe me when I say that borderless certifications simplifies things incredibly. When provinces or jurisdications have different standards, yet the same expertise, it becomes inefficient.

NAFTA isn't even what it used to be. Anytime we can cut red tape and streamline regulations between jurisdictions (where it makes sense) - I don't see why we wouldn't.

Still no evidence.

As has been noted, there are no impediments to interprovincial trade now - therefore no need for TILMA.

Consequently you still haven't actually addressed the real issue, which I think is the coercion that will be possible under this new, and never-debated, regime.

Could you address the need for the kinds of sanctions the 'arrangement' provides for?

There have been voluminous examples of WHY this is a bad deal and should be buried. I'm asking you for ONE carefully articulated reason for its existence.

Just one.

This is nothing but another Campbell/Klein sop to business and the lowering of standards to the level that now obtains in the US - the same place where you couldn't get decent medical care for less than a small ransom; a place where some 40-odd million Americans can't afford any medical insurance and numerous more have now been denied medicade coverage because of the extreme 'competence' of the Bush administraion in its efforts to attack illegal immigrants who need medical care.

Another little story from the Times. You really should get out more.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/us/12medicaid.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Would those bordeless certifications

Would those borderless certifications have anything to do with Alberta beef?

For example products from producers of which the penultimate premier of that province said, should farmers and ranchers be confronted with possible cases of BSE, they should 'get out their shovels'.

I don't think I trust you, or Albertans for that matter, all THAT much.

I'll hang onto the little bit of red tape that's left.

You might also want to spend a little time investigating the way the authorities in the province to the east of B.C. are handling the health situation in Fort Chipewayan. I don't think I want to sink to Alberta's level. Not now, not ever, thank you.

Example

Businesses need not always register in both provinces. There is labour mobility. Credentials recognized in AB are now recognizable in BC. No extra exams, time or money spent.

You and I both know there are impediments. Give it up.

Stop using the Bush adminstration as an example. I've agreed with you time and time again. He is not a libertarian conservative. He is a reckless social conservative, big difference.

He is not better than the democrats. Both spend big and talk bigger. He boasts about smaller government - yet have you seen the number of government contracts flying about?? It is a scham.

Conservatives in Canada have never operated that way. In BC and Alberta, we are lean and mean.

The sham

The sham is the idea that provincial authorities don't have legitimate reasons to make decision which favour their own citizens.

Barely a year ago the Campbell Government was trying to find a way to force Home Depot and other such retailers to give them lists of BC citizens who purchased retail items in Alberta and brought them back to BC without paying the applicable provincial tax.

Remember that Cappy? If you know so much about how people take advantage of the law - when there is a law - how do you think business will behave when there is none at all?

Enjoy your Alberta beef. I wouldn't touch the stuff.

TILMA, NAFTA and all so

TILMA, NAFTA and all so called "rules based free trade agreements", are in reality red tapes around the necks of democracies.

The red tape may have been removed from around the necks of the multinationals, but is getting tighter and tighter around our necks in many ways.

This is why they call them "rules based". The multinational mafia sets the rules and we lie down to comply with their insatiable demands and can't vote them out, because if we do, they just sue us to remain in power.

When corporations can overrule local zoning bylaws, is it not red tape ?

When I was in manufacturing in Vancouver from 1957 to 79, I was sending my products anywhere in Canada, the USA and even to Hawaii, without the slightest problem, and was buying all kinds of things from all over. Just picked up the phone, or sent a letter and the stuff was there with a few bucks of tariffs, but so what ?

Ed Deak.

Capitalist' Grooming

I think you need more grooming. The maximum annual CCP deduction for 2007 will be $1,989.90, and the maximum EI deduction will be $720.00. If you are claiming tens of thousands on your tax return, please provide an address where you can be arrested.

Come to think of it, didn't AA get dissolved in the Enron scandal for mis-reporting facts and shredding documents ?

Did you get groomed in Advanced Shredding Strategies ?

cappy Many of Enron ex

cappy
Many of Enron ex bosses are behind TILMA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/enron/usandersen030702ind.html

http://www.chron.com/news/specials/enron/andersen.html
That is only one search msn results and you are proud of the way you steal from the public purse.
You and your ilk disgust me to no end!
TILMA is a treasonous act on the people of BC and ALB and will take down these two traitors along with all their gangsta buddies and may open the can of worms called NWO and the take over of OUR SOVEREIGN NATION CANADA!

Impediments

Quote:

"You and I both know there are impediments. Give it up."

Cappy, the AIT was created in 1995 to deal with Provincial cross broder trade impediments. Therefore, there are no impediments. Please, enlighten us and tell is specifically what kind of impediments you are referring to.

The Libs can't have things both ways. They tell us the economy is booming, yet at the same time they tell us we need this to improve our economy.

Yet again, here Cappy is avoiding responses to any and all legitimate criticism. Does he always argue like this?

kl

"Yet again, here Cappy is avoiding responses to any and all legitimate criticism. Does he always argue like this?"

Yes.

Well, it seems numerous

Well, it seems numerous posters have offered up excellent critiques of TILMA and all Cappy comes back with is

"This thing is clearly good. Let's not waste our time debating its merits. This merely reduces regulation and more than anything, allows for greater flexibility amoung professionals."

Or,

"I'm already making room in my wallet for this windfall we're all about to enjoy!!"

More empty rhetoric:

"TILMA's critics are completely off the mark in their opposition to this agreement. The results will be less red tape, fewer duplicate costs for workers and businesses, and a stronger economic foundation."

But, I will agree with Cappy on this one:

"In BC and Alberta, we are lean and mean."

Mean is right, especially when it comes to helping out the less fortunate amongst us in society. I guess though all those who have to push shopping carts up and down my alleyway all day will benefit from the trickle down effects of TILMA and we'll no longer have to worry will we?

Cappy must be locked up in a

Cappy must be locked up in a closed room, because "lean and mean" went out many years ago with the "throwaway society"

The politically correct expression now is,
"wealth creation" and especially, "business friendly governmeents" and "wealth creating foreign investment".

Better watch it cappy, or Preston will take away your CRAPP membership card.

Ed Deak.

Ignore Trolls!

Why do you guys give Capitalism so much control over you? He's just baiting you! If everyone would just ignore his posts (like I do), there would be a lot more of interest here.

The Oregon Experiment

(With apologies to Christopher Alexander.)

If you want to know what will happen under TILMA in the next two years, just look 500 km to the south.

I am a Measure 37 refugee. I moved to Oregon in the '80's because it's pioneering land use laws that contained sprawl and preserved productive farmland were the envy of forward thinking states throughout the US.

In November, 2004, Oregon voters were duped by an expensive advertising campaign that spent TWENTY TIMES the opposition to pass Measure 37. With slimy ads, like the one showing a little old lady whining at the camera, "The city won't let me cut the ivy in my back yard!" the initiative petition that Oregon's Supreme Court would later say was "deceptively worded," suckered Oregonians into thinking that governments must always compensate land owners if they create regulations that the land owner perceives will limit the value of their property.

So, a person with an acre of undeveloped land in the middle of a suburban subdivision can decide to set up a pig farm, and the local government can either let him, or pay off his claimed loss of value that the zoning regulations cost him by denying him his pig farm.

In the two years since its passage, the courts have become clogged with over 7,000 claims involving over one-half-million acres, totaling over $10 billion dollars, according to a Portland State University study. In a recent poll by The Oregonian (hardly a bastion of progressive bias), nearly 80% of respondents who said they voted for Measure 37 now say they regret their vote.

In effect, land use planning in Oregon can only be spoken of in the past tense.

TILMA is Measure 37 on steroids. Its vague, contradictory wording says on one page that "legitimate" regulations, such as the much lauded energy promises of the Throne Speech, are exempt, yet in another section, it notes that such "legitimate" actions must be shown to have the least possible impact on trade, investment, or labour mobility.

How can one guaranty "least possible impact" of any new regulations without taking a chance your butt will be hauled into a hand-picked tribunal, arguing why you should not be fined $5 million for having taken some regulatory action that Big Business disagrees with? It's easy -- you simply abdicate, and make no more regulations. The chilling effect will be enough to negate global warming -- or at least Gordy's promises to do something about it!

PS: PLEASE respect my wish that if Capitalism responds to my post, y'all will just let it be and ignore him, okay?

Thanks Bytesmiths

You make some excellent points - much appreciated and glad to have you and your experience on board. You've been missed of late.

In the main I agree with you about Cappy.

But, if you check the 1996 titles of a certain Canadian Author called Susan Swan, who also teaches at York University, I think you'll understand the uses to which some of this discourse is being put.

I'll try to respect your wishes, okay!

Bytesmiths

Nice post Bytesmiths, excellent points.

From now on in, Cappy is on ignore.

We need cappy and his

We need cappy and his companions for comedy relief, but I agree, it is a waste of time to answer their ideological nonsense.

Thanks for the input Bytesmiths, not that our warped politicians would ever listen.

Ed Deak.

Next step: DO SOMETHING!

If any of you are interested in following this more closely, and (oh my gawsh!) actually doing something about it, like writing letters and attending city council meetings, there is a mailing list for TILMA activists.

For example, we got on the Nanaimo City Council agenda, and a number of us attended the meeting last night. (They have been about as butt-headed about this as the BC legislature, but if we pack the house and let the press know the normal sleepy meeting may have some fireworks... :-)

In my mind, TILMA and its ilk (AIT, Measure 37, SPP, ect.) is the most important thing an activist can be involved with today, because it is so far-reaching. Want to fight poverty? TILMA will make it harder. Fighting childhood obesity? TILMA will put Coke machines back in schools. Want clean air? TILMA makes you prove that your methods have "least impact" on Big Business. Don't want a MALL*WART in your neighborhood? Say "Good bye!" to your mom-and-pop businesses, because TILMA will not let you stop the big-box stores.

So if you want to do anything that Big Business might object to, you've got to deal with TILMA first.

To join, send a query to: stoptilma AT gmail.com

With TILMA we will have no

With TILMA we will have no rights to voice our opposition to any Corporate dirty deals as we will be fined 5million bucks!
Look at our so called media CanWest nothing on BC RAIL SCANDAL and not a thing on OUR BC HYDRO?
The Common Ground paper is great along with 24 hours!
http://www.ourrivers.ca/
www.worldwatersdays.org
www.hydrofactsbc.ca
www.publicpowerbc.ca
www.canadians.org

Re: Can'tWest nothing ever

Re: Can'tWest nothing ever about TILMA?

Bytesmiths

Got your message.

Be assured, things ARE being done.

contact me.

Thanks

nearly 80% of respondents who said they voted for Measure 37

So, in a democracy, the majority carries the day, right? With an 80% reversal, Measure 37 can be rescinded, right?

Thank you bytesmiths

RickW asked:

Maybe, my understanding of TILMA is that they are trying to make it immune to future legislation (because it would be impeding business). Also the taxpayers might still be on the hook fot the outstanding 7 or 8 thousand suits and the 10 Billion bucks.

I was going to bring up the Oregon Prop 37 business but the smithy of the bytes did a good job.

One good bit of news, during the last US election they had a similiar initiative on the ballot in Washington State. Fortunately for the people of Washington it failed to pass, I think to no little thanks to the fact the residents of Washington had been smart enough to pay attention to what was happening in Oregon. It really is kind of unusual for Washington to be wiser about land use issues than Oregon, but the Neo-Cons never sleep and constantly are working on their goal of transferring all income upward.

Now if only the people of BC would pay attention to Oregon and Washington.

By the way Cappy I certainly wouldn't brag about any association with AA, or as the partners not on the run or in jail now call themselves Accenture, oh yeah, the same Accenture that does all BC Hydro's billing and records and general business administration. The one that the State of California refused to do business with, until the Governator stole the governorship. They refused to do business with them because they were corrupt and they didn't think it was right to send the taxpayers of California's money offshore to the Bahamas or where ever they are located. It's fine with the Campbell Crime Family though, they'll send our money almost anywhere, except BC unless they can't help it, Germany, the Caribbean, China, the US, Ontario.

The Boom in the Oil Patch

Some of my friends who have been working in the oil patch for the last few years are home a lot more this winter. Apparently though still booming compared to lots of places, exploration and development has slowed down considerable this winter. These folks didn't particularly want to take more time off this winter, they didn't really have any choice as their companies were doing less work, fewer projects. There was/is still work, but they would have to find other, probably lower paying jobs, probably with other outfits. When you have to stay in Hell, drink toxic water and breath toxic air, you don't really want to work for peanuts and pay top dollar to live in your camper.

Prop 37

The big difference between BC & Washington/Oregon is that at least the denizens there got a chance to review and vote. Here, it is just a "done deal".......(for our own good of course, as we do not have the qualifications to critique such agreements impartially).

Vive Le Canada on this

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070314060241688

Opposition forces legislature debate on TILMA proponents

A Citizen Journalist says: "I think this is a brilliant strategy on the part of Corky Evans. As former ag minister, he knows this stuff, and it shows.
 
"Perhaps we should target individual opposition MLAs with specific experience to bring TILMA up in every applicable context. If some bill comes up on widgets, and MLA Bartfast is an expert on widgets, we need to help him understand how widgets in BC will be affected by this GDA, and get him to speak up about it.
 
Unfortunately, being a newcomer, I don't know enough about the legislative process, nor the strengths of individual opposition MLAs, to be able to contribute much to such a strategy.
 
"It just seems to me that if every bit of legislative business ends up having the impact of TILMA raised, the NDP will have its debate, even though the Libs voted it down." - Chris.

[Please note especially the final paragraph. - BC Mary.]
_________________________________________________

March 8, 2007 Hansard -  Agricultural Estimates re: TILMA
 
C. Evans: Hon. Chair, I am just trying to understand the trade, investment and labour mobility agreement with Alberta. I had hoped that we would debate it in the Legislature so that all of the MLAs and everybody watching would understand. It appears as if we are not going to have a debate in the Legislature, so I need to use this opportunity to try and understand what it means for farming.
 
My first question is: prior to the signing of the TILMA agreement between the former Premier of Alberta and the present Premier of British Columbia, were the minister and the ministry consulted about possible impacts on agriculture in B.C.?
 
Hon. P. Bell: I should just introduce, as well, my Deputy Minister Larry Pedersen; the assistant deputy minister in charge of keeping her hand on my shoulder and in my chair, when appropriate, Daphne Stancil; and our trade expert Judi Sigurdson.
 
And yes, we were.
 
C. Evans: Could the minister enlighten us about what advice the minister gave the Premier prior to the creation of the wording in the TILMA agreement?
 
Hon. P. Bell: The two primary areas that were discussed were the Natural Products Marketing Act and the exemption from TILMA for that particular act. There was discussion around the potential impact to supply management and that if that was in fact the case, which the assessment was, supply management fell outside of TILMA. Those were the two primary areas.
 
The member asked what advice I provided to the Premier. It was actually provided to the Minister of Economic Development, not to the Premier.
 
C. Evans: What month or year did this discussion between the minister and the Minister of Economic Development take place?
 
Hon. P. Bell: I'd have to go back and look at my calendar, but it was a couple of months before the TILMA agreement was signed. I don't recall exactly what day, but it was several months, because I was certainly aware of the progress of TILMA prior to it being signed. So if it's acceptable to the member, I would suggest about two months.
 
C. Evans: The signing date of TILMA, I think, was last August. Is that correct?
 
Hon. P. Bell: This part of the questioning probably would be better answered by the Minister of Economic Development, but I believe that was signed in April of 2006.
 
C. Evans: Last week the minister and I had an exchange on the subject of wildlife damage in a general sense. For my own edification but also for the farm community that might be watching, I want to return to the line of questioning in terms of the TILMA. It seems to me that there is more support for farmers in Alberta who experience wildlife damage than there is in British Columbia.
 
Now, if my theoretical belief is true, or were it to become true at some point in the future, and a forage producer experiencing wildlife damage was paid less than his counterpart in Alberta for similar wildlife damage…. If the grain grower felt that his ability to compete was being unnecessarily damaged by the absence of support in British Columbia, would that qualify as a rationale for bringing suit under the terms of the TILMA?
 
Hon. P. Bell: I think we covered this off, although I'm not positive that we did, so I will again. But under part 5, under the section, "Business Subsidies: measures

 
adopted or maintained to provide compensation to persons for losses resulting in calamities such as diseases or disasters," they are exempted from the agreement.
 
I might point out to the member, as well, that one of the areas I didn't mention was the issue of the agricultural land reserve. Of course, Alberta does not have an agricultural land reserve, and we wanted to ensure that that was exempted as well. It is in fact exempted.
 
So there are still components of our two regulatory regimes that will not perfectly align. This is primarily focused on labour and mobility — hence the name of the agreement — so the ability for people to work on either side of the border under the same licensing regimes and the same forms of certification….
 
As an example, a teacher could practise either in Alberta or B.C. under the same licence, or a certified biologist could operate in either jurisdiction. So the focus of the agreement tends to be more on the ability to work in either jurisdiction. Again, I'm treading dangerously into an area of another minister's responsibility at this point when I make those remarks. Hopefully, the member would be able to get more fulsome answers from the Minister of Economic Development.
 
C. Evans: We did canvass this a little bit last week. It feels to me like wildlife damage can hardly qualify as a disaster. It's just a naturally occurring event on both sides of the border. My questions to the minister really have to do with…. My reading of the TILMA agreement is that yes, the minister is correct. It has to do with professional transferability for a construction worker or a teacher working on both sides of the border.
 
But it also reads to me like a business — and farming is a business — which feels that it has been aggrieved unfairly in a competitive environment by operating in a different regulatory regime in one province or the other has the right to up to $5 million worth of recompense. Is that not correct?
 
Hon. P. Bell: Under the structure of TILMA, if a farmer felt aggrieved by this section, they would certainly be able to apply for, as the member points out under the rules of TILMA…. What my comment was, I guess, intended to direct the member toward is that Alberta may try and acquire exemption under section 5 of TILMA.
 
We would certainly work with and support the farmer if they were to move forward on an application of that nature, but I just wanted to point out to the member that there is a section. So the question that the member asks, I think, is an interesting one: would wildlife damage be considered to be a disaster or not? I think that's a legitimate question and something that undoubtedly we will all be wiser about some time in the next few years.
 
C. Evans: Similar to wildlife damage, crop insurance. I think there are occasions where the crop insurance provisions are more lucrative on one side of the border than on the other for the same commodity that operates in both provinces. If that happens due to drought or hail, would not the TILMA agreement then, again, inspire farmers to sue under the TILMA for the same risk management provisions on both sides of the border?
 
Hon. P. Bell: Again, I guess we go back to the point that really, the question would be the level of crop damage. Would that fit into a category of a disaster or disease, I suppose, if it was a biological challenge for the specific crop? It's so hard for me to answer specifically yes or no, depending on the situation. But certainly, TILMA is intended to try and level that playing field, but specifically around the labour of content. It wasn't built in anticipation of targeting specific programs, but there are opportunities in which the regulatory regimes fall significantly apart where it may be applicable, and the $5 million penalty that the member points out could come into play.
 
C. Evans: I was worried that might be true. Of course, it might have the benefit that a couple of farmers in B.C. sue. We might raise the support for farming up to the level of Alberta, and it would all be a benefit to everybody. In the meantime, it might be somewhat chaotic.
 
Let's move to the subject of labelling. As the minister knows, there's large pressure, and has been for a long time in British Columbia. A considerable number of citizens would like us to move to a labelling regime advising people of what's in their food. This tends to be put forward most strongly by people who would like a labelling regime around GMOs. If the province wished to move to a labelling regime — either by saying what's in their food or, for example, by returning to Buy B.C., where we had a voluntary label that said where it came from — would Alberta be able to then sue and say: "You can't do that in British Columbia, because it presents a business opportunity or restriction denied Albertans"?
 
Hon. P. Bell: No, they wouldn't be able to.
 
C. Evans: I'm thrilled by the answer, and I don't understand it. Could the minister explain that if the government here moved back to Buy B.C. and there was Crown investment in it, why Alberta producers might not sue and say that's an unfair business advantage offered to only one province?

 
Hon. P. Bell: I believe that the member in his previous question didn't identify that there could potentially be subsidy involved in the Buy B.C. program. I believed he was strictly talking about the labelling initiative and what that might look like. So to answer the question that I heard, I think, the first time, it would simply be a matter of consumer choice and providing a consumer with information on the specific product
 
being grown or produced in British Columbia, or perhaps non-GMO, organic or whatever it happened to be — a labelling, branding type of initiative. It might even be a subregional type of initiative where the product is grown in the Fraser Valley, as an example. Those would all fall outside of the requirements.
 
My thought on the Buy B.C. program, or some program of that nature, is that if there was to be financial support from the province, it would likely fall under the agricultural policy framework that's being negotiated across Canada right now. Each jurisdiction would have a pillar in there in terms of support to their specific jurisdiction. Alberta would have that pillar in their jurisdiction, and we would have that pillar in our jurisdiction. Therefore, the two would be benefitting equally from that pillar. But it would likely fall under the agricultural policy framework II or APF II, as we're referring to it right now.
 
C. Evans: Yeah, I don't want to complicate it too much. Absent the federal policy agreement, which is not yet built, it's my understanding that the TILMA is built and signed and comes into effect on April 1. Absent the federal agreement getting finished, if Buy B.C. came back in any form and had a provincial subsidy, would it not constitute a contravention of the TILMA?
 
Hon. P. Bell: Any agricultural policy subsidies are transitional at this point and are to be negotiated over the next two years.
 
C. Evans: Does the minister have an intention to negotiate an exemption for the possibility of a Buy B.C. program in future?
 
Hon. P. Bell: Right now I am advised that Alberta and British Columbia manage the labelling programs or province-of- origin advertising regimes in a similar manner, so at this point it's not an issue. The point that the member brings up, though, is a good one, and I think it is one that we would want to more fully engage in discussions on over time.
 
The good news is that, largely, we're not in competition with Alberta on specific products that we grow, with the exception of the Peace grains and oilseeds crop. Our beef industry is largely complementary to the Alberta beef industry, as opposed to being in competition with their beef industry. Clearly, in crops like blueberries, raspberries, our hothouse crops, our tree fruit crops, we're not competing with Alberta. If anything, to try and capture that larger marketplace into the B.C. umbrella will be helpful. I think what the member points out is a good point and one that we need to continue to focus on. It is a transitional issue.
 
I think his advice in terms of being diligent in the process of those discussions is wise and sage advice. We'll see that kind of process move along over the next two years. But at this point there's no difference, I'm advised, between the two regimes.
 
C. Evans: This is one of these issues where I hope he keeps his job and I keep my job for the next year so that next year I can ask: "How are you doing with those negotiations, Minister?"
 
 
 
March 12, 2007 Hansard -   Agriculture and Land Estimates:
 
TILMA and ALR
 
C. Evans: This is one of these issues where I hope he keeps his job and I keep my job for the next year so that next year I can ask: "How are you doing with those negotiations, Minister?" [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY] Let's move to the ALR question, which the minister has informed me is not a concern. Is the minister saying that the Agricultural Land Reserve in British Columbia has been exempted in writing under the exemption provisions of the TIMA?[DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
 
Hon. P. Bell: The Agricultural Land Reserve is specifically exempted by part 7, which is a legitimate objective for land use, and that is, we are advised, the category under which it is not being disputed — that the Agricultural Land Reserve is not considered to be in conflict with TILMA. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
 
C. Evans: I have a more specific question. Is the Agricultural Land Reserve named in that fashion under the exemption in writing?  
Hon. P. Bell: No.
 
C. Evans: Darn. That's not the answer I wanted. In my reading of the TILMA, the word "necessary" is hugely important. My reading suggests what the TILMA says is that a jurisdiction — school board, municipality, recreational commission, provincial government, whatever — has the right to put necessary controls in place. For example, if it's trying to protect salmon, you can have necessary distance holdbacks from development on a salmon-bearing stream. But if a dispute ever goes to court, it's over this word "necessary." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY] Now, there are many ways to protect agricultural land, and I am concerned that our Agricultural Land Reserve would…. Someday a developer from Okatose would come to Langley and say, "Gee, I can protect farmland in ways in Okatose which are not allowed here. This is unnecessarily burdensome," and sue under the terms of the TILMA. Would that then not require a three-person panel to adjudicate on the necessary nature of the Agricultural Land Reserve, stripping the Legislature of the power of deciding what is and what is not necessary in British Columbia and replacing some third-person panel that we don't know?
 
Hon. P. Bell: I should point out to the member that the wording is: "The purpose of the measure is to achieve a legitimate objective." The legitimate objective that we are trying to achieve through the Agricultural Land Reserve is to maintain affordability and quantity of viable farmland.
 
I think it's very clear, and the member would agree, that through the odd bit of decision around the ALR where there have been removals, the price of agricultural land if it's not protected by the ALR — particularly in the Fraser Valley, the Okanagan and southern Vancouver Island — increases dramatically.
 
... bit of decision around the ALR, where there have been removals, that the price of agricultural land, if it's not protected by the ALR — particularly in the Fraser Valley, the Okanagan and southern Vancouver Island — increases dramatically. Our argument would simply be that it is legitimate objective — the protection of farmland— and we are confident that we are covered in this area by that exemption.

C. Evans: As much as I appreciate the minister and the minister's staff's answer to the question, I completely, absolutely disagree. Many analyses over the years have suggested that if you got rid of the agricultural land reserve, the price of agricultural land would plummet the next day simply because of the laws of supply and demand. Whether or not what I just said is true, you can bet a lawyer from Alberta for this theoretical developer from Okotoks would make that argument. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY] Simply the fact that an argument could be made — or that the minister's answer to me is: "Oh well. Our argument is really good…." That would suggest that they can have a really good argument too. And that means that we're actually going to sign and bring something into effect on April 1 that we don't know, and a three-person panel will decide what's necessary and what's not necessary. I don't think that's what you want, hon. Chair. In fact, I would say that because of where you live, it might be seriously important to you. I don't think you know whether the ALR is protected, based on the answer the minister just gave.

To the minister, let's just deal with it straight up. Would the minister please agree to attempt to negotiate an in-writing exclusion for the agricultural land reserve during the two- years of negotiations that determine what the exclusions will be.
 
Hon. P. Bell: I'm confident in the decisions that have been made and in the way that the agricultural land reserve has been treated. I'm confident, and I think that generally the public would be confident, in the argument that if the agricultural land reserve was eliminated, prices of agricultural land — particularly in the Fraser Valley, southern Vancouver Island and the Okanagan — would increase dramatically. I'm surprised that the member would suggest that the price would go down. I'm not sure what his logic would be. We're confident in the negotiation that's taking place and feel comfortable that the agricultural land reserve will be protected. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
 
C. Evans: The price of agricultural land and whether I'm right or wrong is a complete red herring and completely irrelevant. I'd be happy to be wrong. The minister is essentially saying that he will not negotiate an in-writing exclusion for the agricultural land reserve. What he's doing in saying that is, I submit, putting the TILMA at risk. We all know, from every poll that's happened for
20 years, that the people of British Columbia support the agricultural land reserve. If they think that a three-person tribunal of people they've never met, with the power of the Supreme Court of British Columbia but chosen by governments, will decide whether or not the TILMA affects the agricultural land reserve, then the people of B.C. are not going to support TILMA and are going to ask that we get out of it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY] I'm going to ask the question again: would the minister not reconsider and ask for just a simple thing. You just go to the table with Alberta and say, "We would like to add the agricultural land reserve to the exclusion list." Will the minister not do that in order to remove the land reserve from the TILMA debate and to permanently entrench it as an icon, a virtue in British Columbia.
 
Hon. P. Bell: In my view, there is no debate. The ALC and the ALR are protected.
 
C. Evans: I get it that that's the minister's view. I honoured that I get to stand here and ask him his opinion. It doesn't bother me that we disagree. It's that the minister's opinion will not be the deciding factor. The minister won't be the minister, he's part of a government that probably won't be the government when this thing is finally come to court, and we don't know what a three-person panel will decide.

It is not a court. It's three people appointed by governments with the power of the Supreme Court. They'll decide the future of the agricultural land reserve. It doesn't matter that the minister is satisfied. I'd be surprised if he was even a lawyer — certainly not a trade lawyer. It matters what a three-person panel sometime ten years from now decides. The only way to protect it…. There are two ways: the minister asks for an exclusion, or we defeat the TILMA.

I am out of questions. I'm not going to waste the minister's time by asking a third time, but understand, hon. Chair and everybody watching, that I think the answers that the minister just gave means that the only way to protect the land commission is to defeat the TILMA. He gives his assurance that we can defend the thing in law. I don't think that he's right — neither of us is a lawyer; we're sure as heck not judges — and we won't be there the day that the three-person panel uses the TILMA to break the land reserve.  

Too much red tape and the wage gap

TILMA might reduce a level of red-tape and taxes for the money for all that red-tape. This article also helps explain that wage gap that the Policy Alternatives crew launched recently.

Neil Reynolds was once an NDP guy. Nowadays he's pragmatic and still has comapssion.

Low productivity equals lost taxes. Get it?
NEIL REYNOLDS
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

OTTAWA — It's the single most disturbing observation that the Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity makes -- disturbing because it is so precise. "Public interest in questions of competitiveness and prosperity," the institute says in its 2007 report, "is hard to detect." Frankly, no one gives a damn. Canada can rouse itself from complacency to resist service fees at automated banking machines. Yet it can't feign a response to the country's devastating decline -- compared, across 25 years or more, with the United States -- in living standards.

Established as an independent research organization by the Ontario government, the institute measures and monitors Ontario's economic progress against other provinces and against the U.S. (Its chairman is Roger Martin, dean of the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto.) The institute has for years tracked Canada's growing "prosperity gap" with the U.S. -- from $3,000 a year per Canadian household in 1981 to $9,200 a year per household now. With another decade of indifference, the institute has calculated, the prosperity gap will almost double -- to more than $17,000 per Canadian household.

Canadians may well love their country deeply -- but they are only human. When Canada's prosperity gap reaches a certain level, Canadians will begin to cross the U.S. border in numbers that rival Mexicans. Canadians have migrated south in large numbers at various times of economic stress throughout our brief history. One can safely predict that, without radical policy reform in this country, they will do so again.

U.S. per capita gross domestic product is now $51,600. Canadian per capita GDP is now $42,400.

It's hard to say how much greater this divergence must become to set off a southward migration. But Canada's productivity performance in the past quarter-century is an ominous indicator that we're getting closer. Expressed as a compound average growth rate, Canadian labour productivity has advanced by 1.3 per cent a year since 1981. Among 19 countries with populations greater than 10 million, Canada stands at the very bottom -- with the exception of Mexico, whose performance is minus 0.6 per cent a year. The Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity describes Canada as "the real laggard." Among the countries that beat Canada are Poland, Turkey, Hungary, Britain, Portugal, Japan, Italy, Greece, Spain -- and, believe it or not, France.

Canadians appear remarkably unperturbed by the fact that they are growing relatively poorer. Perversely, they appear proud of it, as though they can best articulate their difference from Americans by impoverishing themselves.

Yet the "prosperity gap" doesn't hurt only the people of Canada. It hurts government, too -- which is normally sufficient reason to get the attention of the country's political elites. Here, succinctly, the institute explains why governments -- whether left or right -- should pay serious attention: tax dollars.

"Closing the prosperity gap -- or increasing our GDP per capita by $9,200 to match the U.S. level -- would result in an increase of $11,900 in personal disposable income for the average Canadian household," the institute says. "In addition, closing the prosperity gap would generate an additional $108-billion a year in revenues for the federal, provincial and municipal governments."

This is astonishing. Forget our lost incomes. Think, for a moment, only of lost government revenue. We think that a $10-billion budgetary surplus is significant? Try $100-billion. Try $108-billion. Count present surpluses along with it and try $120-billion a year. Why does the Bloc Québécois, so keen for more federal tax-dollar transfers to Quebec, not care about this revenue gap? Why does the New Democratic Party, so insistent on increased federal tax spending as a matter of principle, not care? Ideological differences can legitimately separate us on the spending of prosperity; let it not divide us on the earning of it.

The competitiveness institute's 2007 report calls for a number of kindred policy changes that it says will reverse Canada's prosperity gap. Canada works hard, it observes -- but not smart. In an assessment of 24 member countries of the Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development, the institute determined that Canada has "the least smart" tax regime on business investment of them all. Yes, the U.S. tax rates on investment are among the highest in the world. But the U.S. compensates in other ways, producing "an environment that is perhaps the most conducive to investment in the world." Canada, in contrast, has the high tax rates -- but not the conducive environment.

realisticman

Fat lot of good all that phoney productivity has done for Americans.

Have you seen the debt clock lately?

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 16 Mar 2007 at 02:01:40 AM GMT is:
$ 8,835,345,253,653.09

The estimated population of the United States is 301,193,297
so each citizen's share of this debt is $29,334.47.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.96 billion per day since September 29, 2006!

I'll let you dig out Canada's figures but I'll assure you it is a lot less than that.

Much of the US productivity would immediately disappear if they had a comparable social safety net to Canada's and they actually had decent minimum wage legislation.

They also have worse infant mortality and a shorter life span - not to mention worse morbidity in the last quartile of life, on average.

Business productivity helps business and the CCPA research has conclusively shown that the vast majority of Canadians haven't benefitted from the business and investment friendly climate of the past 25 years.

Why would things change if we cozied up to business to attract more phony investors who'd use money from our own banks to outsource and export more of our own resouces.

Our tax regime needs to get a lot less business friendly before the standard of living of the 80% of Canadian families who aren't making any progess now starts to improve.

GDP isn't a measure of anything meaningful anyway and most businesses, like those run by Conrad Black, are managed by liars and thieves. if you've been following the business news in the US, you might have noticed the recent upswing in mortgage foreclosures.

Let me know when you stop spouting the discredited neocon line.

That's all?

The US debt seems small compared to Candians.

Vancouver, BC - Each Canadian taxpayer owes $172,416 in federal, provincial, and local liabilities

I'm suprised you went that far West, or whomever.

So the next time we hear that some third world countries has an extraordinarilly low GDP we shouldn't be concerned? OK; I'll remember that.

As for the morgages, you should know better. The foreclosures in the US are for the type of mortgages that just don't exist in Canada. Here, they're either CMHC insured or sufficient downpayments have been made that make them far less risky than some of the 'creative' mortgages in the US. "Teaser Morgages", as they are called in the US have also become open to abuse, in part because qualification standards are now so low. Perhaps you didn't know that.

Not at all and you know it

The key is standard of living - not GDP and how we treat the most disadvantaged in our own culture. Our foreign aid expenditures are also pathetic compared with Scandinavian countries.

Set against the US, we don't look too bad.

That business about high ratio mortgages is not current. realisticman. There were two additional high-ratio lenders added to the mix in Canada last fall and another couple are moving into the market this spring.

Creative financing is not hard to find, especially in the lower mainland and Victoria right now. And we're going to be in the same trouble as the US housing market is before very long - I do KNOW what I'd talkint about. You apparently aren't up to date with what's been going on in the mortgage market. I can even post the names of the folks to call and what products to ask for. But I won't post them because I think what they're doing is selling trouble.

Creative financing is the hot topic in the real estate market these days as the length of listings on MLS starts to attenuate.

Your figures on Canadian debt are hopelessly out of date as well - as you obviously know. Average federal indebtedness in this country is less than 2/3 of what it is in the States (expressed in US dollars) on a per capita basis. I haven't got the figure accurate to the penny but I worked it out about 6 months ago and I could do it again if this were a serious discussion.

I notice you don't deny any of the other stats either.

If you're a little doubtful that I might be mistaken

Or you think I don't know what I'm talking about, you can spend a little quiet time with this and gain a bit of knowledge all by yourself, realisticman

http://www.fin.gc.ca/ec2006/ec/eca1e.html

You might want to pay particular attention to chart A4 and note the countries against whom we 'don't' stack up so well.

Funny thing about that innit?

It's only money

Checked it out, along with other sources. As you point out some countries are doing better than Canada. A few months back there was talk on this site that Ireland wasn't doing so well anymore. Seems like their policy of REDUCING taxes and thereby attracting jobs and international companies to set up in Ireland is still working and they are doing better than Canada. Not sure how they treat their people, which you say is more important. This, of course, is a subjective argument and therefore subject to interpretation and not quantifiable. We do, however know, that their policies of good education and low taxes for individuals and corporations have bought them very low unemployment rates and much wealth.

You say that two 'high risk' lenders were recently added. Two. In the USA it's many more.

I'd say that was mucho buckaroos, woodeneye?

No doubt the problem's a lot greater in the ole USoA

Not at all.

I have a friend who writes legislation for the Irish Government. Used to do the same thing here in Canada. Her reports of things in Ireland - especially as regards certain quality of life and especially alcoholism issues aren't all that sanguine.

I think the key element in the Irish success was assistance from the EU by the way. In fact, many of the businesses who were attracted to Ireland by their attractive business subsidy arrangements (organized through the EU) and tax treatment are now pulling up stakes and moving elsewhere.

I don't believe in subsidies to any corporate entity - but as long as that's going to be the stupid policy of our governments - the idea of further lowering corporate tax is just plain insane. As even Finance Minister Flaherty recognized and for which I gave him partial credit – his phase in scheme is appalling and the decision to exempt REITs was a huge mistake if his government wants to address housing affordability.

If you've studied the pay back records of low interest or no-interest loans to business you'll know these debts are almost never repaid. The last thing this country needs is more corporate welfare.

Every dollar earned is a dollar that should be available for tax. No sweetheart deals for Capital Gains - one home exempt when sold as long as the home does not sell for more than $x value and even for the family home any proceeds in excess of that amount would be taxable at the full rate in the year of disposal. No dividend tax credits etc. No more expensing of corporate travel - ever.

It is an absolute moral crime that more than 20% of Canadian children grow up in poverty while the wealth of the top 5% of Canadians continues to grow apace.

Any thinking person, in my opinion, should be aghast that we haven't done more to address problems that could be solved in a matter of a few months by a government that actually cared more about its citizens than it does about its corporate friends.