The big story here in Victoria was that a group of people went down to protest in front of the UBCM meeting. They then went over to a derelict hotel next to Street Link, a shelter.

They were protesting outside and one guy got into the place . Not that difficult to do as the place has been vacant for over thirty years. People have been sleeping there off and on for a long time.
The Interim City manager, who just happens to be the top cop in town as well sent in the flying squad armed to the teeth. Hey says the cop media handler, these guys were reported to be armed. After some tear gas they stormed the place and dragged the guy out. He was the only one arrested.
End of story, except. the woman who owns the derelict refuses to sell it, fix it up, or tear it down. Last time the city asked her politely to do something, she told them she would talk to" Her Man" the guy works for her. Seems she has most property as well. Most of the entrances were boarded up and the dump still stands. The cop told everyone that they simply had to remove the guy as the building is unsafe yet nobody seems to think it is a good idea to sort it out. Was it unsafe for one protestor that the whole riot squad? She has money, she does what she wants. The guy, got arrested and trundled off. Did anything get proven? I think not.

Get the heck out of there - it is not your building.

DPL
The cops love that kind of a dustup now and then - it feeds their big guy image.

Nothing back on the push polling yet. Maybe it was just a coincidence!

yeah let's see there's a direct correlation between NAFTA and not indexing welfare to inflation and the rise in homelessness.

Until either of those issues are dealt - and some form of the return of the psychiatric institute - homlessness will increase.

Tenant protection needs to be strengthened as well. Lived/worked across the country and this is for real.

"Get the heck out of there - it is not your building."

Strange thing for "Capitalism" to write, since capitalism is about using capital to obtain a yield. If capital is sitting derelict, is it not the duty of a capitalist government to see that it gets used to obtain a yield?

I think your name should be "Libertarian" instead.

Sure - a Libertarain weighted towards a capitalistic society. I don't believe in government, so I suppose I am more of a Libertarian - a government should be there to protect basic civil rights - including the rights associated with property ownership.

Cappy:
I don't believe in you. I think you're really a rogue program written to spew internally contradictory messages while waiting for its turn and the tables in some on-lind gaming parlour.

Until we have some enforceable universal 'human rights' the idea of property rights is just another expression of greed and selfishness and an failure of the most important human value - empathy.

Errata: Should be 'on-line' above and
'at' rather than 'and' in line 3. You see cappy, I even read my own stuff - along with everything else.

But I sometimes fail to make all the necessary changes - as a quick look at the above now indicates - let's try again:

Cappy:
I don't believe in you. I think you're really a rogue program written to spew internally-contradictory messages while waiting for its turn at the tables in some on-line gaming parlour.

Until we have some enforceable universal 'human rights' the idea of property rights is just another expression of greed and selfishness and a failure of the most important human value - empathy.

I think that's got it. Sorry.

My mother owns property in Valletta, Malta, which was requisitioned by the government over 30 years ago and turned into social housing. She has been receiving a pittance in rent compensation as the rents were freezed at pre-war prices. My brother, dad and I hit the roof a few years ago when she told us about this (she's lived here all this time and pretty much ignored the fact that she could potentially be sitting on a gold mine if it were successfully de-requisitioned, as some preperties have been). Having been raised in this country (where market value rules) and still paying exorbitant rents well into our 30s, my brother and I obviously have a different perspective on this. Do you know what my mum said to us? "Well, at least there is no homelessness in Malta and never has been". Touche. Of course most of what is going on over there is pure corruption as a lot of the people taking advantage of the "social housing" situation are in fact better off than the landowners themselves (for example, my mum). Far cry from what goes on over here...

My brother has had it with the unfairness of my mum's situation and is moving to Malta in the new year to fight for the property back... without putting someone on the street, of course, but as he puts it, he is pretty much only a few steps away from being homeless in Canada himself at the rate housing prices are going.

Sounds like the Maltese, anyway, have a better idea of "human rights" and "empathy" than we do, aye, G West?

Aye, Fii. Aye.

I drive by some of these poor souls every day on my way in to work. If I have change in the car, or in my trousers, I try and hand it to them on my way by.

One fellow, he's very tall and has difficulty walking, is always there early every morning - at least five days a week. I'm sure he's no more than 35 but he looks 60. I doubt if he'll ever get to Malta.

I wish I could do more for him than a handful of change every few days - your brother's situation is far from unique.

How much social housing would the money they're spending on the Olympics build?

But Cappy says: 'Get out of here, it's not your building.'

I suspect your brother may think differently of the situation when he gets to Malta.

Your mother sounds like a very wise woman. You must think so too.

I am sure that will apply to everybody's property but your own.

What are you talking about working man? The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Why should I be able to hang onto my property come hell or high water if, in some sense the greater need of the whole community might be better served if I have to give it up - or, at the very least, put it to some use other than vacant occupancy so long as there are those among us who have NO place to live? As long as the program used to help the disadvantaged is equitably enforced and not corrupt.

In other words, isn't there something wrong with a society which encourages some to accumulate several suits and pairs of shoes; not to mention all the other accoutrements of success while leaving un-helped, among our fellow citizens, some who have no decent clothes or a roof over their head?

That’s why we have progressive taxation. Don’t blame me if the idea has been so finessed by the rich that Olympic Games are more important than people.

It’s your system working man. I’ve been posting here for months why I think it’s evil, criminal and wrong.

I was waiting for a punchline. Am I crass or what.

Homelessness happens in many societies,
even in Denmark where they otherwise try to even things out!
That country has had a shortage of housing for decades and rents are expensive in the newer apartments.

Sometime back around the fifties a group of homeless people took over a military complex in the centre of Copenhagen, the authorities eventually gave up on evicting them and a society was formed whereby they live almost as if a city within a city!
The only media news you hear about it is when some reporter squaks about their lifestyle.

Seem to me that our military has plenty of abandoned buildings and barracks spread around the countryside?
We have schools and other public buildings that sit empty as well.

Maybe it is time that those buildings got put to use?

re Social Housing:

..and if one avoids the "Projects" model the US used to build new housing /pre ghettos to segregate and congregate groups and parties.

Unfortunately, I think the horse is long out of the barn and has been for 20+ years...and whether the barn door is open ....or closed ....or broken down and squatted in is NOW a moot point.

What has happened, and moreso in the GVRD/Lower Mainland, was that we are no longer a well- kept secret. Land prices and artificial land shortages have ramped up to where Gov'ts cannot or will not invest in Social Housing. The only workable model in my view is the co-op structure, with its "averaged- out" differential in incomes, but also allows for a spectrum of income levels in a non - discriminatory and integrating fashion. Many got their start in the co-ops program, and as their careers progressed they also moved on. Next !!!

If we look at say Vancouvers' West End area /Expo site as an epicenter for land values in all of BC, it's only logical to presume that Vancouver will, in reality, continually displace the poor and pay lip service while doing so.

The phyrric moment in my view came with the WoodWards decision....and the poor lost...Watch the dominos now . NIMBY-ism will reign .

The poor will be further displaced, and ever to the affordability periphery. I see the irony in that Vancouver had the problem rather contained and concentrated, but is now going to use a quasi- jackboot gentrification cleansing of the poor that will spread like wildfire.

The only solution I see, at least in the near future , is the liberal allowances via legalized "illegal" Suites , but then again...the peckerheads in Gov't will regulate that into the ground...perhaps the unofficial status -quo is best. Gov'ts never wanted to admit this assisted the housing problem...and saved their bacon via preventing an even bigger displacement.Now they want another cash grab by legalizing them.

Deadly words: " Hi I'm from Gov't.... I am here to help you " ( ....except $1.49 day-dazed NDP...ie " which way is up?...are you (i)a unionized poor or (ii) non union poor ....and which floor is the basement suite on ??? Gaawwwd !)

Otherwise, very unfortunate, but the nouveau evolving pragmatism will trump the dogma and the long ago rotted and unrooted "barn door" = gone and dominos falling from within it are gaining momentum.

Oh they are. The RCMP has a training camp and the UN is setting up some training facility &c and yet the city is ignoring/trying to down play our homeless problem, tearing down buildings that have been squatted and making room for more parking. On the other hand, is Vancouver going to treat the disadvantaged like the government of Alberta does? (hint: send you to another province)

I completely agree with you in principle but the reality is less rosy. Some people who are squatting as also destroying the property and that doesn't sit so well with me.

The removal of squatters in Vancouver was quite different the the deal here. IN Vancouver ,both sides had made arrangements. At a certain time came the cops brought them out . No body armour batons or riot squad. Both sides got their point across. social housing is needed so higher levels of government must start to listen. Victoria of course being the city of flower pots made a big show of clearing one fellow out of a building that has been derelict for about thirty years did they prove anything? Not really, the guy said he is off to another demonstration in the next couple of days. The Local rag of course says the Victoria cops had no choice but to remove him and the usual bit about expecting others to be inside. Maybe they could have asked someone, but shields, guns and riot gear will no doubt make the right of center folks think highly of the cops. There is still a large amount of people sleeping outside around Street Link, something that has been going on for a number of years. Show of force proved not much. But the mayors of these two places best listen to what's going on and do something. TO watch the politicinas dither makes a lot of folks angry. The street people are you and I should we miss a couple of paychecks, get sick or hurt. Two more shelters were closed in Victoria this week. The derelict will still be derelict until the city starts fining the socks off those rich folks who own such places. Maybe the fine money could go to Habitat for Humanities who are building six homes for the poor right now. No class system in canada. BS

Christiania was started in 1971. It is a fascinating place that has gone through ups and downs like any community. You can find out about it here http://www.christiania.org/main/lan.php?lan=gb and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania and lots of stories in the English archive of The Copenhagen Post.

Remember there will always be a part of Society that the Government will ABUSE to keep the rest of US scared into WORKING for them , the ELITE.

Until we create a better way of GOVERNING there will always be the QUEEN BEE and of course we workers/drones.

Now you know what a policeman is really trained for.THE GOON SQUAD.

As an aside here Capitalism,you used Maybelbc as a name previous,because you say you have a fondness for that area.Is that the same fondness that the ERON CORPORATION had with all the money they dumped there ???You sound like one of the hot winded acolytes from that bunch...likes to drink ...gamble...etc !

harald

You have such a good memory.

Always a pleasure.

You have such a good memory.

Just saw a film on the ERON scandal and the next day at work one of the boys was talking about it because his GRANDPARENTS got HOSED BIGTIME.

Maybelbc/Capitalisim just popped into my mind when i saw the documents and monies DUMPED into the Mabel Lake/Shushwap Deal.

Remember the CALLOUS DISREGARD these CONMEN utilized and the devastation they left behind.Now they are OUT OF JAIL and there is still $170MILLION ...UNACCOUNTED for.

So , some one yelling get out ,it is not your house and showing no COMPASSION.Well it kind of ties in the mentallity of real ELITISM and the kind of people allowed amongst us.

Aye, harald, aye - as Avicenna used to say!

Homeless is most directly caused by mass-immigration policies which generate artificial hot-house demand for housing. Maybe we could talk about the elephant in the rooM?

.

And you are preaching to the choir. You are pretty obviously not doing much good because since 2005, you have lost a provincial, city and federal election, in that order. Perhaps a policy change is in order? Actually forming governments allows you to set policy.

Like I said working man, it's your system. I hope you're proud.

Power isn't the only thing that matters. Someday even you may need some help.

If things don't change - it may not be there for you either.

Enjoy your property.

By the way, I haven't lost anything. I belong to no political party and have never run for office. The current situation actually makes 'losers' of us all.

The place that was such a danger to life here in Victoria the cops just had to gas some guy and even bring in the dogs, is vacant again. Seems Victoria has no bylaw to force absent landlords to clean up the places. On CTV news this evening a developer was showing the roofs of two other buildings owned by the woman who owns the old hotel Most of the roof was gone in one and it sheds bricks and the parapet is in danger of falling. The news folks went looking for her in Oak Bay. There is nothing wrong with my buildings said the intercom. The acting Mayor now tells us that if its a danger to the public the city can act. Will they? Possibly as the occupation seems to have been noticed up in City Hall. The guy who was tear gased was interviewed today, says the inside of the building still looks quite grand. He figures it would make good housing for the people with no place to go.

I think it would be a good idea if we all update our knowledge on the budget for the ministry of social work. For example; I think the money approved in 2005 and 2006 is close to 700 million and will be increased close to 2 billion in 2009. That amount of money for a 12 month period could help the housing problem in this situation. It is good to have facts to present a problem to a Mayor!

My family lives in Copenhagen and are welcome participants in the social democracy that exists there but even so they consider Christiana a pathetic joke. Socialism does not mean abuse of the system by leeches.

If you want to implement policy, you have to hold the reins of power. It is that simple. Canada has a social safety net and many means to better one's self. Many people make choices that are not necessarily the best.

The sky is not falling but again, if you want to change things in your manner, holding goverment is essential.

The kinds of fundamental changes in attitude have a lot more to do with personal beliefs, equity and business ethics than power. Not to mention the fact that you are as much a cog in the program of the elites as some poor soul caging tricks on Hastings Street. Why do you think nothing ever changes much when a new government gets elected?

Because the fundamentals haven’t changed. Because the NDP are just the same as the B. C. Liberals. You’re the naïve one because, if I accept what you posted here some time ago, you’re really just a disgruntled Harcourt supporter. You expected something different from them when they came to power.

How utterly deluded you are. And that’s the only reason you’re here – because you’re bitter and revengeful. Well suck it up – the NDP isn’t the answer – hasn’t been since at least the 70s. They are as co-opted as Campbell and his business bosses.

Just look at this place, Tyee. Have you noticed what’s going on here? This place isn’t going to change anything. The only reason most of us post here is intellectual exercise – the real changes will take place elsewhere.

So keep on keeping on working man. The sky may not be falling for you right now. However, anyone as convinced as you pretend to be that it's just about you, is definitely in for a nasty surprise one day.

Holding government is the smallest part of making this a decent society. The safely net in British Columbia has a $5 billion per year hole in it through which a lot of selfish people are driving the Olympics. People will eventually wake up. Close down a few more SRO hotels; throw a few more people onto the streets; clip a few more coupons; build a few more swimming pools.

In the meantime, your false sense of your own morality is just sadly funny and quite pathetic - as others have been pointing out.
Ref your comments about Ms Silver a couple of days ago on the Richmond thread.

You have nothing to teach anyone.

I'm interested in Percy's contention that immigration is playing a role in homelessness. Is the demand for the same kind of housing? I'd guess perhaps, if not probably. I am skeptical also -- with the usual suggestion bandied about that poor people should emigrate to the country. I think that's a slippery slope solution when you start telling people where they have to live. Not my idea of freedom.

BTW, props to both APC and VPD for handling this with respect for each other's roles (so far). Although I do think tagging the squatters the "NorthStar Six" at this point is premature (wait for a court date). It also allows the media to concentrate on the individuals involved rather than the issues (the next angle they will want is sure to be "Who are the Northstar Six?"). Give them a semi-official title instead. "Indendent Vacancy Observers" might work. Acronyms nicely and rolls right off the tongue (Eye-Vee-Oh). Talk about how they are cataloguing the vacant, usable housing in the downtown core and squatting to determine the viability of living conditions (as well as a public protest).

If I were a spin doctor for the APC instead of an armchair quarterback, I'd also tell them to use keep using keywords and phrases that bring to mind the issue (and possible solutions!), rather than getting side-tracked by the personalities and legalities involved.

Percy's contention is correct, at least in part.

However, it's a bigger picture called " Supply and Demand " .

The phenomenon, to my recollection , started with the housing market approx. 30 -35 years ago. Increased DOMESTIC Housing demand and 2 income families via post- war boomers.

IMMIGRATION is a sub group which adds to the DEMAND variable ...but only expedites what would have very likely been inevitable demand pressures regardless.

The rest is called SUPPLY....if the supply(of Land) is "frozen" or " restricted " , DEMAND rises and hence the cost RISES, which is ultimately inevitable.

Finally, the is much of the problem that Vancouver,(and the Lower Mainland) is in a relatively temperate climatological belt, thus less of a hostile climate for many of Canada's homeless to migrate to....ie the objective point being that has anyone REALLY looked at the domestic homeless situation as somewhat skewed if many homeless people do, in fact, migrate to BC for our more benign climate from other Provinces, and hence the homeless situation looks " less bad " back there, and consequently " more bad " over here ?

Just a thought.

The Mayor of New York cleaned the city from squatters and a lot of other problems that existed. How did he do this? It seams like BC has a hard time with many things such as; the ferry that sank a few months ago appeared to be just an accident? or a ferry runs aground by a mechanical problem. Yes, even the pine beattles come to BC looking for a place to live. It may be a good idea if Gordon Campbell privatizes our gov't and himself. And we as the people can hire him as a consulant.

Just thinking out loud!!

The homelessness issue is more complex than posters have mentioned thus far, but there are a few things that must be said:

1) The most progressive and socialist policies would not eliminate the problem, because some people would choose to be homeless regardless. Last year, I recall that during a cold snap, there were several emergency shelters put into place, and for a brief period, we had more beds than homeless people. Despite this, several hundred folks persisted in sleeping outdoors, most of them in their usual spots. One fellow, when asked by a reporter why he refused a warm clean bed for the week, said he didn't like all the rules in a shelter. He was, I am certain, mentally ill, but he was proof positive that the homelessness situation is about much more than the availabilty of "homes".

2) Housing prices, and to a lesser extent rents, make no damn sense to me. Even where I live on the Sunshine Coast, housing prices are outrageous, but they remain a bargain when compared with Greater Vancouver values. How is all of this possible? The poor schmuck at the video store is still making eight bucks. A buddy of mine is a school principal married to a teacher. Their combined income is roughly 250% of the average family income, yet they cannot afford to buy a house anywhere west of Abbotsford. I can't for the life of me figure it all out. Can anyone else?

Davey-boy
When the only homeless people left on the streets are the ones who 'want' to be there I'll quit arguing for a response to the problem.

This wasn't meant to be rude, but just to note that I think those who use this argument are selling red herrings. It takes 70% of the average middle class family income (pre-tax) to afford to buy and pay for a home in Vancouver - according to RBC. That's just plain crazy. That there are people falling through the cracks is hardly a surprise.

Davey Boy:

Re "WHY" ???

The "buyer" pool and hence the prices paid have many reasons.

In accessing and reviewing old real estate data, I have noticed that Vancouver West Side property values for the average home have moved from say $150, 000 in the late 1970's...to $250,000 pre-Expo...and now command approx $ 1 million to $ 1.7 million +

Many of the buyers that pay these prices are admittedly immigrants,...but this simply creates a new ripple effect = "new buyer pool" as they now need new accomodations elsewhere.

Once these nouveau riche owners retire or cash out, they often seek areas like the Okanagan, Vancouver Island,......Sunshine Coast etc. They can pay Cash and also still have a lot of Cash left over. Bidding wars in these locales will inevitably raise prices in these other areas as well. Call it a capitalization effect.

These displaced nouveau riche are quite a potent fiscal force in the scheme of things...especially in outlying areas. Those that fund their displacement may one day dry up as a source of funds....but, however, once they have that cash...Cash IS King wherever they go.

ALSO : Flipping etc. is not uncommon...didya see the news story a few weeks back re: Whistler, the epicentre of high real estate prices in BC ?

Apparently(in Whistler) they have not only peaked...they are on a downwards trend. High end property has dropped approx. 30%...one example was a party that had purchased a "run - down Whistler shack" for approx $750,00 last year....and sold /bailed this year at around $690,000 likley due to speculating and couldn't finance the debt load. Whistler is too dependent on a non domestic buyer market..hence very vulnerable for myriad reasons.

Like anything else..the market will correct itself...in most ,if not all,cases and facets.

Davey Boy:

Re your 1st point....

You made some good points:

I recall reading the auto- bio of tele-liberal Phil Donahue a few years back. In his early years, he was full of piss and vinegar and all sorts of fix/cure the world's evils' views. He went to his clergyman and discussed the poor. The clergy man listened and made the classic comment " the poor will always be with us ".

Donahue , in his auto bio....considered this a turning point in his younger and more impressionable life and evolving media career. He felt a bit outraged and pissed off and turned off. However he didn't quite get the classic meaning of the aforementioned classic comment .

In what is typical of many who consider themselves "progressive and liberal" ..he launched and expanded his own somewhat "pioneering" talk show format. While his early topics may have been groundbreaking...and opened discussion and debate on many topics...but his shows set in motion what I will refer to as intellectual porn....or porn masked as intellectualism...etc etc. In the end it was a basic porn show , and many clone-like shows were created in its wake.

In the end, Donahue got very wealthy...and retired...with a sexy also "liberal" wife. However, the poor are still with us...and likely always will be. Cadillac knee -jerk "off the cuff" hypocrite liberal$ like him WE,.... and more importantly the POOR and HOMELESS ,.... DON'T need. Seen too many Donahue types that almost seem to have the evidence bluntly suggest they make their filthy lucre on liberal views, yet with no actual and active follow up.

NYC had a solution to the problem which was reported weeks ago by reporter ex-Yank Mike McCardell. Suffice it to say....Liberals need not apply.

The reasons for the existence of poor and homeless are many and complex...but those phoney liberals that squat in the middle ground and blab on with their dogma versus pragmatism simply compound the problem, or most certainly don't offer practical long -term solutions.

As you say, we can't assume (= ass-u-me )why some poor and homeless choose to NOT avail themselves of options that are presented to them....Liberal-Leftie types always seem to tend to do the thinking for everyone ELSE, and thus often amount to surficial stereotyping.

At least they do think maestro. That in itself is refreshing.

Alci:

U R Implying what...???

Please expand.

Is what you posted. I was just nodding!

Alci aka Phil Hochstein:

Note the "qualified" comment aka " seem to tend to " do the thinking for everyone else .

Context dude....or have you created your own abridged Bible with your name substituted for any names starting with J ....or perhaps S.

Otherwise ....Resistance is futile...your epiphany " via possible thinking " duly noted and acknowledged ....your consequential surrender "liberally " accepted.

PS Save the "nodding" for the more ultra -conservative "TG and N" show, (but advisably not near ANY tall buildings in the lower 48).

You're writing about context?

Now that, is funny.

Alci:

Waddya do....???

Redefining context in Alci's " World according to Alci " ???

This is CONTEXT ( not CONTEST...which thou art seriously losing...and quit using your G West persona to assist you ).

As in

Which you posted in conjunction with?

Some more of your fevered imaginings. The point is you don't 'do' context you just hang it off several nails pounded into the nearest wall.

You almost wrote something relevant about supply and demand the other day and then the jelly slipped off the nail - and ended up in a puddle on the floor.

Funny thing though, I think you and working man ought to get together - both of you still have half a heart left.

Between the two of you, you might amount to something.

Giving a free home to a capable working person is not the answer. There is lots of work around so crack them in the rump and put them to work so they can make a home like most of us have done. I am tired of supporting the system that is failing. So lets find the solution. Any comments?

Alci:

Just what point don't you get/fathom ,or exactly what clarification are you in need of?

Example: Supply and Demand....a concept from basic Kindergarten Economics 101,...what further extrapolation do you need so you are not bedazzled by a "rain of jelly" , albeit of rather low viscosity?

Re Working Man and I....and other bloggers...I have noticed that some of us who comment maintain a fair degree of independence while under the free speech umbrella. We don't necessarily actively ally ourselves with others , though of the same basic philisophical views. We tend to keep a more neutral silent individualistic stance.

However, others seem to be into a group " Alphonse and Gaston" routine...in quasi - cacophony comraderie...in the same bathtub then chugging the same bath water later . TYEE is prime example and it gets quite amusing. TG and N are quite a team...with the ROYAL JELLY and the jam-less Leftie drones join the hive....

I don't think any one deep down is any more or any less caring about their fellow man. Some of us,however, look at the Big Picture and review the how -did -we- get -from -there -to- -and -where -do we -go- next? Our real world pragmatism tends to trump the propogandized dogma theory ...

Many of us consider the system and the decison -making process populated with elected officials and bureaucrats as failing all concerned. However, part of the problem is the Leftie element with sharp elbows which perceives itself as having a monopoly on virtue. This simply infiltrates into the bigger debate,dilutes the practicality and expeditiousness of the solution , and the negative status -quo is maintained.

Did you check into the NYC solution I mentioned before ?

ALSO...I mentioned expanded use of suites within existing homes as what I see as a practical Win-Win solution.

Have you ever listened to talk show host David Berner and his views re the LEFT WING versus the RIGHT WING solutions to problems...as he was once actively involved with working on social problems . Suffice it to say, not very complimentary of the Left Wings involvement.....a very common basic story...which is why many of us shake our heads at Leftie Ltd.

If you just don't get it Alci...you just DON'T get it....at least have the JAM to say that and forget the unsubstantiated and irrational nail vs. jelly analogy...just simply drink more bath water .

Pure:

Your comment " I am tired of supporting the system that is failing " is BANG ON.

That's why many of us are very jaded. Our resources are directed into supporting a system that not only fails, it perpetuates failure.

It's no different than the Justice System...another major failure. It "succeeds" in the sense it creates a huge benefit to ONE side of the system's overall equation, ie jobs for lawyers, judges, police, sheriff's, prison guards.......at the cost to the other side of the system equation ie US .

One looks at one's property taxes every year.....and sees the lion's share of tax $$$ goes towards policing...YET property crime and other crime etc. is rampant....Why the hell am I not only supporting a system that fails , it apparently makes the situation worse? It's like pouring gas on a fire....and burning the money would actually provide more value ? Huh?

LOGIC: Pay more taxes to support the failed Justice Industry before the $$$'s are physically stolen by the same Justice Industry's perpetrator-clientele? Welcome to the real world ???!!!

You may have seen the various TV News reports re: that group home for mentally challenged parties that was scheduled for closing. I couldn't for the life of me see the rationale, if we agree THEIR interests should trump all others. Many had lived there for years and apparently quite harmoniously. 2 have died ,apparently from the stress of the potential move,..and another recently committed suicide. The cold bureacracy apparently trumps the warmth of the given individual successful situation.

Micromanagement of a nouveau "one size fits all" is the moebius pox of Gov't visited on its own citizens.

Time to start over...and soon...before it's too late. The current path will not only perpetuate failure , it will encourage and increase more failure ....that's a GIVEN.

Sorry maestro, you haven't been paying attention.

I have posted, as have others, consistent and thoroughgoing criticism of the system you today call a failure yourself. And, I haven't shied away from acknowledging - at least in terms of the way homelessness is being 'handled' in many parts of the United States - that some American cities (and the American tax system) have done and are doing a better job than Canada has done.

As I said, you need to read a lot more closely. The US earned income tax credit comes a lot closer to addressing the real problems (as does the New York - and other cities - effort to build suitable housing for the homeless and the working poor) of the poor in many US cities than any of the dog’s breakfast of futile feints and dodges we’ve used in Canada. Sad but true – but not unacknowledged in these pages.

I've also, however, pointed out a number of other fundamental problems, not least decent universal single-payer health care and minimum wage levels toward which the US, as a nation and a group of individual states, have failed miserably to even approach Canada's level of penuriousness.

My point is that you and working man - although you see, as through a glass darkly, that the current mess is a mess - are unwilling to take the next step and prefer to whittle away around the edges like typical pragmatists who are unwilling to take the next step. Further, you both seem almost paralyzed by your nominal hatred of the actions of the provincial NDP for what are, fundamentally, personal peccadilloes with previous administrations.

That’s fine, though foolish, in my view; but, your intense focus on that political party has blinded both of you to the fact that the solution to Canada’s problem does not lie within existing compromised political institutions – it lies in the open eyes, clear minds and unencumbered hearts of its people. Free people who will determine in their own time, and the schedule is far from certain, how they will use – or not – the existing institutions of this society (or change them if need be) in order to address the real needs, health and welfare of all the people. And not just the hardened crust which currently sits atop this society like a brittle scab.

Definitely time to start over brother - let me know when you're ready.

I promote no political agenda - I support an agenda of radical (in the best and original sense of that word) change.

Time to start that clock again maestro and forget the comedy routines.

Alci:

Sorry, but if you want to add something...add it earlier in the debate and not add it near the end....

Then we have a term of reference to actually refer to , AND especially in THIS or any given blog....one can only comment if one actually has the point at hand versus attempts at retroactive- reactive additions and supplements.

U.S. policy etc. is a far broader trans-national discussion , it is too big a topic to engage in , specifically to apply here in this discussion. While there are admittedly local regionalized concerns that are and also best dealt with at the local grassroots level, in the U.S. or here, or elsewhere... the U.S. tends to divide into (i)the Republican and (ii) the Democrats does it not???

My recollection of the US housing market is that one can, or used to be able to deduct one's mortgage costs, but Big Brother down south makes it back on capital gains taxes ....while isn't the basic reverse true up here?

Approx 1/10 th of Canada's population lives west of Hope...approx 1/3 lives in and around Southern Ontario....or over 1/2 -2/3 in Central Canada ie Ontario and Quebec. Very sparsely populated, yet population concentrations...very regionalized and localized...one size does not fit all in Canada...correct?

We have more political parties in Canada , the NDP is a factor to some degree nationally,...but here in the STATE/PROVINCE of B.C. the NDP has a major presence. When it gets the chance to govern...and combine both its campaign brochures and its' classic " stand up for the little guy ", and when it actually HAS the reins of power...why does it fail so miserably ?

My comments are pointed directly at the "options available"...within the political spectrum...within the democratic system. I wouldn't make these comments if the NDP were NOT who they claim they were. They cling like squatters with sharp elbows in the "virtuous/holier-than-thou" category...simply put up or shut up. Wood Wards is a prime local example....I repeat L-O-C-A-L example....not Alberta...not Ontario, not NYC..nor Chicago...nor LA....

WoodWard's issue was chump change in relative cost...a model to use to perhaps set a broader policy....towards future solutions to a foreseeable predictable undeniable problem.

FYI...NYC example was apparently directed by Mayor Giuliani (within a fairly liberal City) and both removed the problem but with an active plan to provide fair balance with pro-active solutions, not lip service.

If your own NON cold -blooded heart(much like mine) can take this forthcoming comment sitting down....perhaps that is where YOU and I DO actually agree and have common ground ... a radical change IS needed...but the " virtue squatters " maybe the best choice to be the first to be evicted from the more local village/island.

Then the radical solutions we propose, I will hazzard a guess,...probably won't be all the radical...probably quite non partisan a-political... much common ground...which again is my point ...the bullshite submitted( and collateral lack of action )has a glaze at the surface each time it is dumped which blinds many with re-packaged false hope, again... and then the same old smell ultimately kicks in AGAIN .....current non-secret Recipe = "stir and repeat..."

False advertising adds and compounds the problem,.... it does nothing for nor towards the solution.

Sorry bud, you're going to have to learn to juggle a little faster - and keep more balls in the air than that.

Here's what you said:

to which I just replied.

As to the mortgage interest question, you're absolutely right, but, I think you'll find if you investigate the current housing crunch (and the Savings and Loan collapses of the Reagan years) that American home ownership protocols are full of holes too. And don’t forget the re-financing tornado that has been whipping through the market in the States since Ashcroft, Bush and Co decided that the best way to prove Americans care is to keep spending on useless stuff like drunken sailors. The consumer in the States has just about finished trying to run the table and the bills are going to come due. An awful lot of GOP legislators aren’t going to be all that sad when they find themselves not returning to Washington to face the mess. Trust me, the Repubs always like to let the Democrats take the blame when the economy goes south – and I think that’s where it’s headed.

One of the biggest problems in Canada is the tax treatment of capital gains which gives, as you well know, home owners and their kids a range of options that are denied almost as a matter of course to the folks on the lower end of the ladder.

You're still spinning your wheels. When you're ready for some real radical thought I'll get back to you. In the meantime, keep treading water. And picking away at that scab. Occasionally a bit of light will emerge.

I’d far rather have you as an ally than an antagonist. And as a comedian? – Well we already know the answer to that question.

Peace bro, as bear would say.

As many people have noted in todays society.WHAT ARE WE PAYING FOR???

And just who are the people calling the shots.

And why is that cop on my doorstep?

And you're arresting me for saying what?

No Alci:

That's not the NYC solution I am referring to. I have posted it previously.

With all due respect, c,mon, REALLY...why would I keep asking if you had heard about it IF you had actually posted it ?

Mike McCardell the local reporter,and ex -patriate Yank, had come back from NYC and compared solutions there versus here when interviewed on a recent show.

Apparently, Mayor Guiliani had put forward an initiative to clean up the City...and tackled many of its corrupt and negative facets. What was interesting is a not -unrelated correlation between the Mafia and the solving the homeless situation.

The crackdown on the mob ie the Gotti's etc. semed to have a positive collateral effect, one of which was to actually put billions of dollars into the City coffers, and thus the funds to put into Pro-active social inititatives.

Cracking down on crime likely created less homeless and helped the existing ones..ie who are most likely also victims of criminal activity.

Many homeless were given paying jobs to keep the Subway areas clean. Any parties found homeless on the street(the number of which has apparantly been dramatically reduced) are reported and a team, including social workers, is dispatched to deal with them , mostly by providing them shelter as a starting point.

Now the Civil Libertarians will very likely consider this an infringement on one's rights...but that's why people are continually disenfranchised by these deluded lefties at the fringes. They really make contradictory comments and hence conflicting logic...(more $$$ for the homeless ...but its their right to be homeless ???). However, a Pro-Active quasi-tough love approach will help these poor souls get back on their feet if we follow a similar model, so why re-invent the wheel?

However, CRIME seems rampant here in BC and the GVRD ...this mob that mob,.... this gang that gang...much like NYC,....will our RAV line also set in motion the same seeds locally that made NYC a mega city hell hole till it got so bad they had no choice ?

Does our society not see, or truly head -in -sand ignore the Big Picture...but the Lefties rage on about neo-cons and the multi nationals...Sorry I don't see the tie between Jimmy Pattison and homelessness. Jimmy provides local jobs...even to ex NDP premiers...done it at least twice...I see more of a tie between Leftie Ltd. and homeless though...spelled "failure to do vs. preach " etc. and monopoly of virtue squatting with sharp elbows etc.

However, I do see more of a connection with our Justice Industry aka " Failure Ltd." and homeless etc.

Can we learn from NYC mistakes...or do we as a society re-invent the wheel and thus have to go to the edge of the abyss FIRST...AGAIN ?

I've also mentioned I have many relatives in NYC and area..trends THERE have a way of migrating North up HERE.

My guess, via having lived here long enough...is that our society WILL go to the edge of the abyss first, in ever predictable fashion...truly pathetic...and all the unfortunate victms along the way.

That's really too bad, but I see no evidence to the contrary.

Jimmy provides minimum wage part time jobs that could never support anybody.

Mr. Jim is a Bible thumping phoney, like most of his ilk.

Ed Deak.

Ed:

BTW: I believe I , and many others know where you stand and I think most of us on all sides and points of the political spectrum hold you in very high regard (including Yours Truly),and have a good basic sense in understanding from whence you came and what your basic philosophy is.

Even TYEE Right- Wing extremist/human Wikpedia G WEST explained what FIAT LUX stood for (and it's not Italian Soap).

Jimmy P. is more a symbol, but let's not forget he also has Union employees, does he not ? As a past member of 3 Unions, unions in my view have a lot to answer for regarding the treatment and solidarity of non -senior Union members. That's the grassroots where it all starts.

I myself see the forces that shape the world in a somewhat different light than you and other TYEE bloggers, perhaps , and less conspiratorial based. We can't freeze -frame and stabilize a status-quo , it's called progress, no matter how much we crave the good -old- days.

Hope your spouse is doing well, as I recall you mentioned an unfortunate situation a few months ago. Heard the North had quite a dump of snow..did it hit you???

Please continue your blogs,both the objective and editorial ones ,... they are well -written,....fascinating, and often better than any professorial lecture I have ever had...keep the piss and vinegar coming .

Again , my compliments and I look forward to your future submissions.

maestro

I'm sorry.
That's just window dressing. I didn't believe you were serious with that crap.

The real improvements in housing for the homeless and the working poor have not come from the non-story that your reporter 'discovered'.

Just like Giuliani, Bloomberg is almost exclusively interested in the limelight.

You might want to follow up on the story about him as a miracle worker in Mexico City if you want a chuckle.

I pointed all this out to a poster here at Tyee months ago. The stuff is all available if you look for it. Choose to believe the easy answers if you like but there is more to this question that combating the mafia.

The whole broken windows thing has been superseded by much more long-term and verifiable research in Chicago. It is all a question of community but, the tax situation has helped and we’d be wise to emulate the Americans in that respect. You might want to look at some of the stuff Rick Santorum has been working (in a bi-partisan way) to do in Washington. [I can’t believe I put in a plug for Rick Santorum, but, I can’t deny the truth]

You can start looking for it anytime you're ready, the truth is out there – and it has nothing to do with the X-files.

You are starting to show some signs of actually waking up though, which is good.

DO you know what Fiat Lux means?

Geez G! You figure he GOOGLED it yet.

Whoa!

And here i wuz thinkin it wuz fancy eyetalian soap.

He may now that I've pointed out to him that it actually means something.

Cheers dude. I wish you'd tell me more about the trip to Macchu Picchu.

Thought i sent you an email ?

OOOOPS!

G' ster;

No..I was going to point out in the annual TYEE BLOGGER awards your great contributions worthy of a special award. The award will be designed via the inspiration of the classic rendering on US paper currency of an "all seeing eye" within the pyramid .

Included will be a bibliography that you invented the INTERNet, and were an INTERN with Dr. Ewan Cameron. Also, your auto- biography and best selling self -help guide "LEFTIE-ISM FOR DUMMIES"(redundant)...$19.99 in U.S funds only.

Eventually some of our highly respected senior TYEE statesman bloggers on the TYEE will retire, and others will need to step forward. However, this will result in a F'n " know -it- all" faction(again Lefties..ie R-E-D-U-N-D-A-N-T ) attempting a Castro-style cyber coup.

This may result in the TYEE becoming an All Leftie Reserve (ALR).(or All Leftie Rhetoric ,again ALR ).

While all the typical Leftie Ltd. engage in party-line REDUNDANT agreement on ALL things discussed , and when even this 100% agreement ever increases.....others at the periphery will see a golden opportunity to see the HUGE potential to harness the TYEE ALR "Leftie Ltd." rhetoric into something actually productive and useful, and begin a quasi P3 power co-generation venture and hook into the power - grid.

HIGH potential meets L-O-W downside.

PS Giuliani and Bloomberg says hi and are awaiting the IPO..(and any chance of free copies of your book with your John Hancock attached ???) How's the Che Guevarra T-Shirt sales going...can we order on - line ??? I know you prefer US funds.

Maestro,you one of those illuminated dudes? Cause i haven't read postings of such CLARITY since we had this old gout ridden ,council of great canucks,fat kat from Saltspring espousing his genius to all of us illiterati ?

Of course it takes our hard work and a social contract so fat kats can sit around Saltspring Island on million dollar properties stolen from others.

you mean tcahill, Harald.

I wonder where the old fella's gone to.

Not Macchu Picchu I hope!

Haraldkann:

I am a bit speechless....I defer to your far greater clarity.

I just wish they would use their acknowledged intellect and other Super Human powers towards the constructive and collective "overall good of society" and NOT continually pissing into the winds of change , NOT picking and choosing their variables...and NOT continually blaming all that happens(or doesn't happen)in this imperfect world on certain segments of society nor certain portions of the political spectrum.

I've seen this preachy -teachy stuff way too often,(sounds like you have too) it becomes a Leftie Ltd. parody-meets- Leftie Ltd. stereotype.

Speaking of Islands, the only " Island based(or any) PhD/Professor " that seemed to offer practical solutions was on Gilligan's Island...but even that was a bit of a piece of fiction.

Debates and discussions are great as long as all minds participating are open throughout it, and not closed going in, yet trying to camouflage this serious objectivity deficiency.

Well,both Thomas and I were pretty baffed from all that driving but there were a lot of fat kats and stuffed shirts and psuedo intellectuals hanging off the stuctures in various states of inebriation caused by alcohol and various drugs,so he could have snuck in through the back door.

The quasi religious overtones rang so hollow from the Tilley endurables crowd.Mother was so offended it ruined the trip for her,she had been looking forward to the visit since her childhood.Luckily father was in that stupor that strokes usually leave the elderly with,you know,who cares,i'm hungry,i gotta pee,where are we.

So,we were busy.GOOD TRIP THOUGH.

And we had some bitchin ARGUMENTS over the thousands of miles we drove.THREE MONTHS,15 people in one trailer.

And picking out either Mary Ann or Ginger is still one of my favourite debates,one of those endless debates you might say.

SO NOW BACK TO THE SERIOUS STUFF,EH?

Do you mean you left him there?

No wonder we never hear from him any more.

Oh Lord. I can't take it anymore!

It's "Lefty" for singular, "Lefties" for plural, and "Idiot" for someone who thinks a person's political and economic opinions can be distilled into a silly left/right categorization.

Let's review:
Lefty
Lefties
Idiot

Any questions?

Well, A-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y , often they can, and if the shoe fits W-E-A-R it...

Shite-ing from atop the cesspool crust of subjectivity (and all that goes with it) may set in motion the downward displacement and further absorption into the pee'r group, if one can read into THAT analogy.

Unfortunately,...At a certain point opening one's mouth becomes a rather compromising endeavour in the cost/ benfit analysis.

May suggest that the totem pole of definitions posted vertically be instead re-established horizontally with redundant " = " signs between them.

Other than that, Happy Hallowe'en !!!

The old, stupid ways are busted, never to be repaired, and so are the labels that go with them. Get with the times. One can be fiscally conservative AND evironmentally ethical, in fact at this stage of the game it's pretty much the only approach that's going to work.

Corporate handout time is soon to be over and the labels designed to divide and conquer will be seen for the smokescreen they are.

C'mon Stump. have a sense of humour.

However, we can agree to disagree, but I do agree with ya on the fiscally conservative and enviro-friendly combo .

However, that of course needs to be expanded on as to a broader workable model, otherwise its our own individual definition and personal practices.

Corporate bashing does what, really??? Corporate hand-outs etc. seems to be a knee - jerk comment used by many to coalesce the ills of the world and use as a convenient target.

The Left side of the spectrum has a right to protest , but over what?, they seem to create broad generic boogeymen, and the odd time they get into power their solution is raise taxes etc..whoopee...and business often pulls up stakes and leaves.

The world is smaller and companies, like people, will go where they feel their best interests lie. Its a far bigger topic, but knee -jerk ranting against the wind and the tide etc. is perhaps cathartic, but not pragmatic,and why I get tired of the Leftie Ltd.s' King Kanutes. Quite a deficit and deficiency re cost/ benefit analysis of their utopian world vs the real world.

G West:

Yer blog 3 days ago:

Ya told me what Fiat Lux means...not sure what you and the 49Thomases are claiming..like its a big secret...furthermore,a GOOGLING verified you weren't pulling a fast one.

Sooo....???

Re: your rebuttal to the Guiliani solution , my further rebuttal is that McCardell was fresh back from NYC a few weeks ago and discussed this at length...so I don't see why its a so-called failure as you claim.

Regardless, a system can be a success because of its failure. By that I refer to allowing a status quo to be maintained and the base negative situation creates further compromising situations. There comes a point that the collateral effect onto others needs to be addressed, and the old status-quo non solutions go out the window...before its broken...again.

Civil libertarians take these issues as cause celebre's, and mount rhetoric based sermon's on the evils of the society they themselves are a part of,...lather up the crowd..., rather than grab a literal and figurative hammer and nails etc. In the "reducto ad absurdum" end, it ends up a "its your right to be poor and homeless and no one should be allowed to stop you"...

Many neutral and innocent parties get caught in the crossfire, and sometimes difficult times call for difficult measures. The Guiliani solution was likely based on a bottomed out....no other choice, and the scales often need to be tipped, as a last resort, which often gets the civil libertarians all twisted, but than again, they again often contribute nothing to a practical solution.

Go check out the Chicago experience. It's a 10 year longitudinal study of neighbourhood and it makes Guiliani look silly - his 'broken windows' theme is just one tiny piece of the puzzle. The key is getting people to care about their own community and its character and opportunities again. Nothing like the guns and jackboots of Guiliani's methodology which just shifts the problem to Jersey.

If you're interested, you'll find the information, read about the studies, and come to understand.

Fiat Lux, as Ed would say. Or, as I'd put it volenti non fit injuria

G West:

All I could find re Chicago is vague strategies that seem to imply housing of some sort is sequestered and combined with some associated support groups.

One key difference is not to create shelters as it may encourage more of the homeless problem, which I agree with.

Also, the usual cynics on some sites re TRUE homeless numbers...

Overall, if a multi - participatory social network exists there , great, but we have much of that here as well ie charities like the Salvation Army etc.

The solution appears to be low income housing dispersed throughout the community. Chicago example mentioned 1000 units available , but which I doubt are concentrated in one locale.

Vancouver is likely perceived as THE blatant example of B.C. homelessness, to a larger degree than exist elsewhere. It has the highest B.C. concentration of both the good ( highest income/wealth )and the bad (social problems), typical of a big city

Maybe "quasi -NY quasi -Chicago" Vancouver should lead by example and get back to the rest of us.

However, Vancouver will likely continue with the gentrification in juggernaut fashion and simply move the problem elsewhere.

In "some" ways,I really don't see the Chicago example as much different than some of what we already have here, but then again, the US demographics are much different and can't be applied and extrapolated here. Chicago is a huge U.S. city which dwarfs Vancouver.

Once a situation gets big and bad enough, time will tell which solution works best given the
particular situation and circumstances. I think that's the key in comparing Guiliani in NY vs Chicago.

You haven't tried very hard. I'll see what I can dig up for you.

I hate encouraging laziness, here's a start. The main researcher is Robert Sampson, the Lucy Flower Professor in Sociology at the University of Chicago.

There's a little push, you'll soon be pedalling all by yourself. Along with your new knowledge about ROFLMAO you'll soon be right up to date.

I'll save you some time, the research is published under the title:“Systematic Social Observation of Public Spaces: A New Look at Disorder in Urban Neighborhoods,” in the American Journal of Sociology.

Check it out.

And here's a bit more - this from a article about Sampson's work with Felton Earls on another study: Neighborhoods and Violent Crime: A Multilevel Study of Collective Efficacy by Felton Earls and co-authors Robert Sampson and Stephen Raudenbush from the New York Times (Jan. 6 , 2004):

Will a group of local teenagers hanging out on the corner be allowed to intimidate passers-by, or will they be dispersed and their parents called? Will a vacant lot become a breeding ground for rats and drug dealers, or will it be transformed into a community garden?

Such decisions, Dr. Earls has shown, exert a power over a neighborhood's crime rate strong enough to overcome the far better known influences of race, income, family and individual temperament.

''It is far and away the most important research insight in the last decade,'' said Jeremy Travis, director of the National Institute of Justice from 1994 to 2000. ''I think it will shape policy for the next generation.''

Francis T. Cullen, immediate past president of the American Society of Criminology, said of Dr. Earls's research, ''It is perhaps the most important research undertaking ever embarked upon in the study of the development of criminal behavior.''

Thanks G West.

No ones' being lazy .....its simply spread the wealth if your access to the truth and other info etc. is better.

I'll read a bit more, as this blog will soon enter the " no more comments " archives soon.

Ciao

"Corporate hand-outs etc. seems to be a knee - jerk comment used by many to coalesce the ills of the world and use as a convenient target."

You're certainly welcome to see it that way. I view it more as another example of capitalism's hypocrisy -- as we hear about the lovely benefits of the free market while corporations line up to the trough, declaiming the trickle-down largesse is on the way. Trickle down indeed. Down the leg and all over the rest of us. Everybody ends up smelling like piss, but I guess some animals ARE more equal than others.

Quote: Dr. Earls and his colleagues argue that the most important influence on a neighborhood's crime rate is neighbors' willingness to act, when needed, for one another's benefit, and particularly for the benefit of one another's children. And they present compelling evidence to back up their argument.

Will a group of local teenagers hanging out on the corner be allowed to intimidate passers-by, or will they be dispersed and their parents called? Will a vacant lot become a breeding ground for rats and drug dealers, or will it be transformed into a community garden?

Such delusions is more like it as the crime will just find another place to deveolop like an accident waiting to happen. There is very little that can take away from the devastation of no place to sleep, no money and no life. In poor neighborhoods kids are sent to the street and their parent well your guess is as good as theirs. Communities coming together to make their neighborhoods a better place to live is always good. Just pushing the crime into another time frame does not necessary eliminate it.

morechatter.
You need to be a little more discerning. The bit you've quoted is not from Earls' report. It is from a New York Times article about the report. You clearly haven't read the report itself which I'd suggest you should do before making ridiculous statements like you have above.

Your comments are valid critiques of the 'broken-windows' theory of which former Mayor Giuliani of New York was the chief booster. His methods, if you read a little more carefully about which is posted above, did move crime from one area to another.

Read the report. You'll probably have to get if from the Social Science periodicals section at the library. I'm not going to post a link here because you couldn't access it anyway.

Then we can talk.