Opinion

Campbell Era Economy Nothing to Brag About

NDP saw higher growth. Now BC jobs are crashing.

By Bill Tieleman, 14 Apr 2009, TheTyee.ca

Forest Worker

Deep cuts: B.C. leads Canada in job losses.

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Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. --Aaron Levenstein

Here are three screaming front page newspaper headlines that you should see -- but likely won't -- in British Columbia before the May 12 provincial election:

  1. Premier Gordon Campbell's B.C. Liberals worst economic managers in province's history!

  2. British Columbia job losses lead all Canada in recession!

  3. B.C. 2009 budget deficit phoney as $3 bill!

What, you say? How can this be true?

First, look at the cold, hard facts about B.C.'s economy.

Growth was higher under NDP

Start from 2001, when the B.C. Liberals took power, and use private-sector estimates through 2009 -- even though they are rosy and likely to be far worse -- and the results are stunning.

During the B.C. Liberal government reign, the average annual rate of economic growth was 2.6 per cent.

But what was the average annual growth when the New Democratic Party was in power from 1991 to 2001 -- the so-called "dismal decade," to quote Campbell and a host of B.C. Liberal business donors who are sponsoring ads attacking the NDP, like the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association?

Try annual growth of 2.8 per cent -- a better record than the B.C. Liberals.

NDP saw more job growth, too

Can't believe it? Think it's a trick? Look at employment growth then.

During the NDP's decade, employment grew by 22 per cent, or 344,100 jobs. Between 2001 and 2008, the B.C. Liberals have seen 20 per cent growth, or 392,700 jobs, for a lower percentage increase.

But wait! From January through March, B.C. has lost a staggering 63,000 jobs -- 35,000 in January, 5,000 in February and 23,000 in March, the month that led all of Canada.

Overall, Statistics Canada says B.C. lost 69,000 jobs since October 2008, a three per cent drop.

That means B.C. Liberal job growth is actually only 323,700 jobs from 2001 to April 2009 -- far less than the NDP.

And as Statistics Canada notes, B.C. had Canada's highest increase in Employment Insurance beneficiaries between January 2008 and 2009 -- a two per cent jump in the unemployment rate.

(The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives' Marc Lee compiled some of these statistics on their B.C. election blog -- The Lead Up.)

Is that modest deficit for real?

Then there's the BC Liberal budget, which predicts a $495 million deficit this year, a number that is simply unbelievable.

Helmut Pastrick -- the respected chief economist of Central 1 Credit Union (formerly B.C. Central Credit Union) has said the B.C. Liberal government's numbers were way off -- he thought the deficit this year should be $1 billion to $1.5 billion.

"A deficit of $1 to $1.5 billion or 0.6 per cent of GDP in 2009-10 is the more likely outcome due to revenue shortfalls," said Central 1 Credit Union's report on the budget. "Revenue in 2009-10 is not likely to be realized, particularly in the personal income, social service and property transfer lines."

And writing in The Tyee, Will McMartin called it a "toxic fudge budget" because the numbers were so cooked and sweet.

"It's the same old pre-election, budgetary sleight-of-hand British Columbians have seen many times in the past, but of a scale and breadth never seen before. Expenditures have been artificially dampened, revenues boosted heavenward and a fiscal shock-absorber eliminated, all to create the illusion of a fiscal shortfall that is probably just one-quarter to one-fifth of its actual size," McMartin, a former Social Credit government aide, wrote in February.

And all that was before B.C.'s disastrous unemployment numbers came in.

What does Alberta know that we don't?

Then, last week, oil-rich Alberta tabled a $4.7 billion deficit for the year ahead -- almost 10 times larger than B.C.'s, and projected a four-year, $10.3 billion deficit.

Alberta's government is planning for a full two per cent drop in GDP this year and expects a $1.4 billion deficit for the year that just ended, when all the numbers are in.

And Alberta did better than B.C. on unemployment last month -- a still substantial 15,000 job losses -- but far less than this province's 23,000.

But B.C. will have a balanced budget in just two years? I smell fudge.

Now, where are all those newspaper headlines denouncing the B.C. Liberals?

A shorter version of this column was printed in 24 Hours newspaper on Tuesday, April 14, 2009.

Related Tyee stories:

[Tyee]

Bill Tieleman is a 24 hours columnist and regular Tyee contributor. Hear Bill Tieleman Mondays at 10 a.m. on CKNW AM 980's Bill Good Show. E-mail: weststar@telus.net Website: http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/

81 Comments:

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  • Grumpy

    3 years ago

    Bill, Bill ...................

    ....... this election is not about the economy, it is about how the established and pampered elites can keep the status quo. Look at the strange antics of Suzuki et al, supporting Campbell for "run of river" power projects and power export to the USA.

    Added to this is the hapless Carole James, who never should have been elected leader and is leader of the opposition by default.

    In an election that was a sure win, James and her sexist and racist (white males are not allowed to run in certain ridings) party will stumble and loose - badly.

    In BC, crooks form governments and idiots become the opposition. God help us all!

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Thanks Bill

    It's about time somebody told it like it is. Nothing in the 90's was as bad as it is now and it is confirmed every time I go to the local coffee shop. You get people making excuses that it's the world economy and that excuse never works for the NDP. Strange it is and it all comes back to the myths created by Canwest.

  • DPL

    3 years ago

    Two good articles. Bill's

    Two good articles. Bill's and Will McMartin, both in The Tyee. Any wonder why some of us read The Tyee first thing each day? Now that I've had breafast I will read the local paper, the T/C , to hear about some environmentalists dumping on the NDP to tell us just how great King Gordo runs things. I do notice one of the NDP candidates locally just happens to be a pretty good environmentalist.
    Sorry Grumpy but the party put James in charge so run with it, or expect to see Gordo cling to power. Think of it this way. A vote for anyone but the Liberals could get the arm waving Gordo off the podium at the big circus. That alone would be worth voting for someone else

  • daveallen

    3 years ago

    MediaWatch Bias Scorecard LIB-1 NDP-3

    I have today made a commitment to follow The TYEE "BC election reporting" up until the election on May 12.

    My bias scorecard will be clearly a simple record of the read articles and their bias in a LIB vs NDP format as per the subject of this message.

    This scoring is based on my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of anyone in my family, my company or the organizations which I belong to.

    If anyone wants or needs to comment to me directly I am

    Spam accepted, although not preferred.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Still don't understand your scoring daveallen

    Or why it's changed from your post a few minutes ago on another story.

  • deeby

    3 years ago

    Cue the PAB trolls....

    ....and by the way Dave Allen, will you be maintaining similar scorecards for the Sun, Province and TC?

  • crh

    3 years ago

    thanks for this Bill T

    the public has a right to know the truth about the poor money manager we have had leading this province for the last 8 years.

    The only thing Campbell is good at is taking our public assets and privatising them, giving all profits to his friends and insiders. This plays into the basic philosophy of conservative governments. All things public bad-everything private good. Gordo has made it plain to BCer's how destructive this is.

    Carole will not give us this crap, so quit whinging Grumpy.

  • daveallen

    3 years ago

    MediaWatch Bias Scorecard - The Process

    As I read each article I post the new score.

    And as I mentioned on another thread, I cannot afford the time to monitor the mainstream press, besides they are not asking for donations.

    If you want to rant at me directly,

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    bias

    "besides they are not asking for donations."

    dave is apparently ignorant of the fact that most BC newspapers do indeed charge money. A call to the local circulation manager would dispel that but that might be too much research for just one man.

    His scorecard shows that he apparently thinks printing facts shows a bias towards the NDP.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    The MSM aren't asking for donations?

    Please, daveallen try getting your daily copy of the Vancouver SUN without paying for it and see what happens.

    Why would I bother to email you - it's way more fun pointing out the flaws in your logic here at Tyee where lots of people see and read the dialogue every day.

    Also, have a look at the business pages, I can assure you that CanWest Global are asking for HUGE donations - to the tune of a share in about $150,000,000. that they'r hoping the Federal Government will pony up to save their hide.

    With the Tyee, a donation is purely volunatary and, furthermore, you actually SEE the effects of your donation.

    With CanWest, it's just going to disappear down the memory hole.

  • cghzd

    3 years ago

    daveallen

    EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Oh, come on!

    BC Stats shows that from 1990 - 2000 during the NDP decade the labour force grew by 372,000. Under the Liberals from 2001-2008 the labour force grew by 755,000!

    Unemployment rates were consistently higher with a whopping 10.1% in '92.

    Get real!

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/lss/labour.asp

  • grapeman

    3 years ago

    Finally!

    It's interesting that it takes an online newspaper to confront the economic nonsense that has been at the forefront of Liberal campaigning. Well done! But the real question is whether the NDP will have the fortitude to use these arguments in their own defence. In my experience with the NDP, it almost always shrinks and shrivels in the face of "economic" attacks, even though it has strong evidence on its side. Enough talk about health care, education and welfare; most people concede this ground to the NDP already. What the NDP needs to do is confront the Liberals on turf that has hitherto been conceded to Gordo and his minions. If James can't talk economics, it's time for someone who can.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    1992

    Sure you want to use that year R/man?

    Perhaps you've forgotten that it was Campbell's ideological twins - the Socreds - who were in power until late in 1991 - the election took place on October 17 - or have you forgotten?

    As for debating the impact of the 1991 - 92 recession, we'd have to shed a lot more jobs (about 495,000 Canada wide) to even compare with the impact of that one.

    Now, mind you, if Campbell is re-elected, he'll be doing his very worst to make our current situation as bad as it was at the start of the last decade of the century....

  • Dan the socialist

    3 years ago

    It does not matter what El

    It does not matter what El Gordo does or how bad as main Stream media like Global and CTV will never report it. They are state run media for the BC Libs.

    I think if the mainstream media told the truth and all facts El Gordo would not have a 17 point lead in today's poll....

    it is very depressing knowing Gordo will win at least 55- 60 seats...

    I just hope the NDP get a more competent and better communicator for leader (and a leader that will not discriminate against Caucasian males..)

    2013 is the NDP's to lose, Gordo will be leaving I think anyway, the Olympic bills will be due and I hope unlike this election the NDP are better prepared for 2013..

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Check it out Mr. West

    Take a look at the table I gave the link to and then try and tell us how BC's workers are better off economically under the NDP.

    You'll have to fight this one, as you obviously have decided, on innuendo, convoluted stats and abstract suppositions.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Dan

    Have a closer look at the Mustel poll - it has zero credibility.

    Then get out and start knocking on doors.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    2013

    The province will be just as right-wing in 2013 as it is today.

    Half the province consistently votes Conservative federally and they are not going to vote NDP provincially, ever.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    realisticman

    "You'll have to fight this one, as you obviously have decided, on innuendo, convoluted stats and abstract suppositions."

    Oh man, coming from you that's funny.

    How many jobs has BC lost in the last 6 months?

    On the economy, Campbell is the worst premier in Canada, period.

  • Rod Smelser

    3 years ago

    No, "realistic"man, YOU check it out!

    As I am sure you know, the source you linked to does not confirm the figures you gave.

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/dd/handout/bccanlfs.csv

    Labour Force (which is the sum of Employed and Unemployed)

    From 1990 to 2000, it increased by 377 thousand, or 22%. From 2001 to 2008, it rose by 343 thousand, or 16%.

    Employment
    From 1990 to 2000 it rose by 372 thousand or 24%. From 2001 to 2008 it increased by 393 thousand or 20%.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    innuendo, convulted stats and abstract suppositions

    Again, I ask, what are you talking about?

    You're the one who brought up 1992, not me.

    The 1991 election was held on the date I mentioned - the total number of Canadian jobs lost in the 1991-92 election was the number I gave.

    Now, what's convoluted or abstract about that?

    And, as to the figures, I don't have to post any of them, Frank's already dealt with that...

  • G West

    3 years ago

    erratum

    that's 'convoluted', sorry

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Don't go into convultions

    Don't forget. The record is important.

    http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/06/0611_mercer/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5

  • spartikus

    3 years ago

    I'm beginning to think realisticman isn't arguing in good faith

    Don't forget. The record is important.

    Yes. Hooray for Vancouver. What has this got to do with the governance of British Columbia?

    And if you are interested in "records", why didn't you link to a Mercer Quality of Living report from the 1990's so we could compare?

    And how do you account for the discrepancy b/w the number of jobs created under the Liberals and what, you know, your citation actually says?

  • spartikus

    3 years ago

    Whoops...that should read..

    "...the discrepancy b/w the number of jobs you claim was created under the Liberals..."

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    spartikus

    Here is the citation and the numbers have been crunched.

    1992 1,617.2 (000's). % unemployment rate 10.1
    1993 1,668.0 9.7
    1994 1,743.2 9.1
    1995 1,785.6 8.5
    1996 1,816.4 8.7
    1997 1,860.5 8.4
    1998 1,858.4 8.8
    1999 1,894.4 8.3
    2000 1,931.3 7.1
    --------------------
    NDP years. Extra jobs created between '92 & 2000, 314,100
    Average Unemployment rate 8.74%

    2001 1,921.6 7.7
    2002 1,965.0 8.5
    2003 2,014.7 8.0
    2004 2,062.7 7.2
    2005 2,130.5 5.9
    2006 2,195.5 4.8
    2007 2,266.3 4.2
    2008 2,314.3 4.6
    -------------
    Liberal years. Extra jobs created 392,700. 78,000 more than created during the NDP years.
    Average Unemployment rate 6.36%

    Therefore a 2.38% worse Average Unemployment rate was experienced under the NDP.

    Here is the reference link again.

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/lss/labour.asp

    Labour Force Annual Characteristics.

    -----------------
    Is this the Mercer report you allude to:

    http://www.mercer.com/referencecontent.htm?idContent=1307990

    "Americas

    Canadian cities dominate the rankings in the Americas. Vancouver (4) has the best quality of living..."

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Fingers in ears

    "Liberal years. jobs created 392,700"

    Then subtract the 69,000 already lost this year and you get 323,700

    According to the CCPA who is quoting the same stats as you are (BC Stats) :
    "During the “lost decade” of 1991 and 2001, BC employment grew by 344,100"

    Hmmm, 344 thousand seems like a bigger number to me than 323 thousand.

    I guess we're living in the "dismal decade" now.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    And lets not forget

    The Liberals enjoyed mucho largesse from the Feds whereas during the reign of the NDP the Feds were rarely induced to give up so much as a nickel.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Unemployment

    Using your own numbers, it appears the NDP reduced unemployment from 10.1% when they took over to 6.9%.

    The Liberals on the other hand after two terms have a higher unemployment rate than when they started. After all, it was at 6.9% and is now at 7.4%.

    Nice going Libs.

  • Campbellwearsatutu

    3 years ago

    Rman

    How many of those "Liberal" jobs are paying 6.00$ per hour?

    How many of those jobs are the foreign slaves imported to work on the 2.3 billion dollar Canada line (which is 1 billion over budget from the 1.35 billion$ bid price)
    Or the imported workers on the golden ears bridge?

    And are you counting the 7000 Vanoc employees?
    And are you counting the 1000 fish farm employees and the 1100 employees that are stealing our rivers?

    Interesting on the John Malcolm show today,talking election.......

    The callers,not me,but callers who said they voted for Campbell in 2001-2005 all said this time they will be voting for the NDP or Conservative........

    The reasons given was,"We can`t trust Gordon Campbell"---"He`s a dictater"--"He`s selling out the province"------

    And there was one caller who said "The NDP ruined the 90s"--I guess he had to walk in the dark up hill both ways to collect his welfare cheque!
    And earlier on Christie Clark, The majority were against the Carbon tax, despite her 15 minute lead up bashing the polluting NDP.

    Cheers--EYES WIDE OPEN

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Whose convolutions?

    You didn't make 'this' highly personal and offensive remark?

    Check it out Mr. West
    realisticman
    4 hours ago

    Take a look at the table I gave the link to and then try and tell us how BC's workers are better off economically under the NDP.

    You'll have to fight this one, as you obviously have decided, on innuendo, convoluted stats and abstract suppositions.

    I coulda sworn it was posted under YOUR name and direct to my attention....

    And, considering I didn't post a single statistic - other that the number of jobs lost for the whole of the country during the 1991/92 recession, I really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

    Anyway, as for stats, please remember how much the province has grown since 1991...and, while you're at it, you might want to look again at the 2003 budget.
    More on that subject later.

    You don't get all the good stuff on the first day of the campaign and, as for your job creation numbers, I'd say Frank's shredded them already; why would I bother to post anything, convoluted or otherwise?

    This argument's over!

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Fingers in Eyes Frank

    Where'd you make up that 6.9? The lowest the NDP reached was 7.1 as opposed the Liberals 4.2. I though that it was lower last year but I'll defer to the authorities.

    and;
    "...The Liberals enjoyed mucho largesse from the Feds..."
    We certainly want this to continue, don't we. Who would want to be out of the family the way Glen Clark and his gang of malcontents alienated Ottawa to point that they seized some of BC.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    realisticman

    from here :

    http://bcelection.policyalternatives.ca/2009/02/23/partisan-claims-and-the-bc-econony/

    "and fell to 6.9% in May 2001"

    As for Federal largesse, Paul Martin was slaying the deficit dragon, provincial transfers were chopped. Had nothing to do with the premier of BC's personality

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    convulted convultions

    can become all consuming and rather than just let you run, I though we should entreat you to consider controling these controversial considerations lest a calamity occur. All in the contemplation of concern, comprendo?

  • spartikus

    3 years ago

    "Here is the cittion and the

    "Here is the cittion and the numbers have been crunched."

    Others have more than handled the perspective on these numbers, but personally I was curious about the 755,000 you bandy above. It seems to be invented out of thin air.

    "Is this the Mercer report you allude to:"

    No, that's the Mercer report from 2008. I asked for one from the 1990's.

    I can save you the trouble - there's nothing earlier than 2006. Therefore it's useless as a metric.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    When all else fails

    Mumble!

  • greenfirefly

    3 years ago

    Correction:

    Growth until the economic collapse was 3.2% under the Liberals. The average over the decade came down because of the collapse which is a product of insane governance everywhere in the world not just BC. NDP growth was in the government sector as opposed to the private sector. This is a manipulated article by an NDP Elite who is sorely out of touch with reality.

    Both NDP governments in the 90's were elected on false majorities.

    I am no fan of the BC Liberals and there botched environmental business plan. The NDP is not the answer to the current economic woes that is an absolute truth. Out with the Liberal and the NDP. Enough is Enough!

  • realisticman

    3 years ago

    Frank

    Don't believe those stats. Go to the government's unbiased source.

  • Jeffrey J.

    3 years ago

    Thanks Bill

    ALWAYS a great privilege to see Bill Tieleman's work. A true journalist, representing the remnants of 4th estate, writing about how things really are. The backbone of a free press. Looking forward to more during the next 28 days. Shall be an interesting time in BC politics.

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @realisticman, Frank

    Quote:
    Where'd you make up that 6.9? The lowest the NDP reached was 7.1 as opposed the Liberals 4.2.

    I imagine that the BC stats figure is probably averaged over the year, whereas the figure from the CCPA is the monthly minimum.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Government's unbiased source?

    Now THAT is FUNNY!

    Can we talk about the 2003 budget now?

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @ Bill Tieleman

    Great article!

    Just a minor point...

    Quote:
    During the B.C. Liberal government reign, the average annual rate of economic growth was 2.6 per cent.

    Average GDP growth wasn't 2.6%, it was 3.1% (from 2001 to 2007). The 2.6% figure is an average including estimates of future growth (or contraction) through 2009, according to the article by Marc Lee you quote. This sentence is a bit misleading as it stands.

  • Rod Smelser

    3 years ago

    "realistic"man: You changed the goal posts. Why?

    realisticman
    ...
    NDP years. Extra jobs created between '92 & 2000, 314,100
    Average Unemployment rate 8.74%
    ...
    Liberal years. Extra jobs created 392,700. 78,000 more than created during the NDP years.
    Average Unemployment rate 6.36%

    Your first post said the NDP years were 1990 to 2000, so I accepted that and posted accordingly. Now you're chopping hte period short, making it 1992 to 2000. Given that the election was in October of 1991 I guess that's fair enough.

    I think you know that the real reason unemployoment fell so much in the last few years was because, while job growth was similar to the early 1990s, in migration from other parts of Canada was much less. If Mike Harcourt had 10,000 or less people moving here from other provinces he could have shown a 5% or lower unemployment rate by 1995 ot 1996 as well, as could Glen Clark. Instead, they had interprovincial migration figures that came in as 40 to 50 thousand in some years.

    The real question is what is the unemployment rate going forward, if you accept that as the key labour market indicator. As of April, it's already gone back to the 7 percent territory, so the 5% and lower period is over as of now.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    realisticman

    "Don't believe those stats. Go to the government's unbiased source."

    Its the same numbers.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    greenfirefly

    "The average over the decade came down because of the collapse which is a product of insane governance everywhere in the world not just BC."

    Are you saying governance here in BC and Canada was also "insane"?

    We have 10 provinces in Canada, why were 7 of them relatively untouched by this so-called "worldwide insane governance", 2 were moderately hit and only one, BC, was hit hard?

    "This is a manipulated article by an NDP Elite who is sorely out of touch with reality."

    Manipulated in what way? Because it used BC Stats instead of the usual right-wing hyperbole and inferences? I understand that if you turn your tin-foil hats repeller rays up to 11, facts won't seep through and cloud the issues.

    "Both NDP governments in the 90's were elected on false majorities."

    So was Campbell's gov't in 2005. Its called the first-past-the-post electoral system.

  • snert

    3 years ago

    An interesting article

    until Alberta was dragged into the picture. It will be even more interesting to see how wrong the current Alberta government is, in their favour, when the economy starts to pick up. Overestimating can work both ways.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    The Fudge is Bill Tieleman's Spin on reality

    The NDP's dismal performance forced population declines in rural areas of BC from 1996-2001. Thats not Growth.

    North Island 1996-2001 -5.9%
    Yale-Lillooet 1996-2001 -2.9%
    Prince George North 1996-2001 -4.5%
    Bulkley Valley-Stikine 1996-2001 -1.4%
    North Coast 1996-2001 -11.6%
    Peace River South 1996-2001 -9.2%
    Skeena 1996-2001 -6.4%
    Columbia River-Revelstoke 1996-2001 -3.1%
    WestKootenay-Boundary 1996-2001 -2.6%
    Nelson-Creston 1996-2001 -2.2%
    Cariboo-South 1996-2001 -2.1%
    Prince George-Mount Robson 1996-2001 -7.4%

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen01/profiles/CSV/detailed.csv

    Rural Families lost jobs and homes because of the BC NDP's incompetence during the 1990s.

    Bill Tieleman's reporting is out of touch with reality.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Ummm

    British Columbia and Alberta were hit the hardest in March 2009, losing 22,600 and 14,900 workers respectively.

    By comparison, manufacturing-heavy Ontario got off lightly with only 11,000 fewer workers.

    Great job Gordon. At this rate the only people left with jobs by year end will be Gordon's close personal friends....

    And this was the recession Colin Hansen didn't even know 'existed' until January!

    There has never been a more clueless and dangerous bunch in charge of this province - period.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    JStog

    You didn't post how those areas fared before and after the NDP so there's no reason to believe the trend during the NDP years was different than under the Socreds and Liberals.

    That's just sloppy research.

  • seg

    3 years ago

    right on the money

    Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.

    Now that is a great quote.
    Bill is, once again, quite correct in his analysis.
    Let's make sure voters/citizens understand in this election that education and child care are major platform planks and are worth voting on - and expecting results for.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    Just some Facts Frank

    The Trend of the 90s was the BC NDP's mismanagement of everything.

    So Frank thinks "the census is sloppy research" and losing your job and home is just a Trend?

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    JStog

    Just more hyperbole eh? Why not back up your assertions with facts.

    The article demonstrates that the NDP created more jobs than the Liberals, period.

    I know that's tough to swallow for a Liberal die-hard like yourself but if you think its untrue then the onus is on you to prove it and not believe that lashing out and spouting nonsense will carry the day.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Some facts

    BC is losing jobs faster than any other province in Canada - and the Finance Minister didn't wake up to that fact until January.

    He must read the same 'facts' you do JStog!

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Good game eh Frank!

    Although I was a bit worried at the end.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    Frank

    I posted factual links. Your trend facts are where???

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    JStog

    You posted that the population in rural areas went down while the NDP were in office.

    Did it go up while the Liberals were in office? You don't say so you don't have a point.

    You should be aware that rural areas have been in decline pretty much globally as people have been moving to urban areas for about the last 200 years. Its been in all the papers.

    BC population:

    1991 3,282,061
    2001 3,907,738

    Please note that the population of BC increased by over 600,000 people while the NDP were in power.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    JStog

    "Your trend facts are where???"

    Sorry old bean but I need to explain something to you. You are the one claiming there was a trend without posting what you call "trend facts".

    I am indeed waiting for all these "trend facts" and I assume they'll be in your next post?

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @ JStog

    Quote:
    Bill Tieleman's reporting is out of touch with reality.

    Somebody is out of touch with reality, but it's not Tieleman. According to the latest census data:

    North Coast population 2001: 27,992

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen01/profiles/PED_34.pdf

    North Coast population 2006: 23,055

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen06/profiles/peds/North%20Coast_BC.pdf

    Percent change: -17.6
    Percent change '96-'01: -11.6

    Columbia River-Revelstoke population 2001: 33,005

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen01/profiles/PED_13.pdf

    Columbia River-Revelstoke population 2006: 32,145

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen06/profiles/peds/Columbia%20River-Revelstoke_BC.pdf

    Percent change: -2.6
    Percent change '96-'01: -3.1

    Skeena population 2001: 32,021

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen01/profiles/PED_56.pdf

    Skeena population 2006: 29,850

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen06/profiles/peds/Skeena_BC.pdf

    Percent change: -6.8
    Percent change '96-'01: -6.4

    Peace River South population 2001: 28,097

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen01/profiles/PED_42.pdf

    Skeena population 2006: 25,840

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen06/profiles/peds/Peace%20River%20South_BC.pdf

    Percent change: -8.0
    Percent change '96-'01: -9.2

    These regions continued to see declines in population after the NDP left power.

    Many of the other regions you include in your post no longer exist, conveniently making comparison between '96-'01 and '01-'06 population changes impossible.

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @ Frank

    Between 2006 and 2001, BC grew by 5.3%.

    Between 2001 and 1996, BC grew by 4.9%.

    Between 1991 and 1996, BC grew by 13.5%.

    http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen06/c2006bc.asp

    Interesting, no?

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    jimmy_laroux

    Tis indeed. And thank you for helping JStog out with his population data. I'm sure it won't change his mind that Gordon Campbell is responsible for the rising of the sun and the NDP are evil but who knows.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    Trend is

    Frank said

    so there's no reason to believe the trend during the NDP years was different than under the Socreds and Liberals.

    Your the one who called it a trend. So show me the trend thats no differant than the Socreds and Liberal.

    Your words Frank. I'll expect it in your next post.

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    JStog

    Is the word "trend" confusing you?

    Let's try again shall we?

    You state that the NDP are responsible for rural population decline. Do you understand that that is what you claim?

    So I say that if that happened ONLY under the NDP then you might have a point. But you don't provide data showing that the same thing wasn't already happening under the Socreds or continued to happen under the Liberals so its impossible to say. Do you understand that?

    Finally, our good friend jimmy_laroux points out that yes, rural depopulation happened under the Liberals too which completely debunks makes your claim. Do you understand why?

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Edit

    The word "makes" in my last line should not be there.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    Frank

    ""You state that the NDP are responsible for rural population decline. Do you understand that that is what you claim?""

    Yes thats what i claimed. The NDP were in charge then right? You blame the liberals for whats happening now! I blame the NDP for what happened then! Whats your problem?

    ""So I say that if that happened ONLY under the NDP then you might have a point. But you don't provide data showing that the same thing wasn't already happening under the Socreds or continued to happen under the Liberals so its impossible to say. Do you understand that?""

    Other party's are not my concern. Do you understand that? I'm pointing to what happened in the province under the BC NDP's lousy leadership.

    ""Finally, our good friend jimmy_laroux points out that yes, rural depopulation happened under the Liberals too which completely debunks makes your claim. Do you understand why?""

    jimmy_laroux has not debuked anything. He's confirmed it. Something you could have done.

    The word trend is your confusion. I wasn't comparing trends between parties. Your free to do so.

    I distrust the BC NDP because of its horrid past running the province and support no other party. Do you get it yet?

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    JStog

    Your arguments go nowhere. Rural populations have been in decline whether there was an NDP government in power or not. You seem to claim otherwise and that is actually the fault of the NDP even though you have no data to back that up.

    By your logic I could say the Liberals are responsible for the Canucks not going past the second round. In fact, I could even offer more proof of such an argument than your rural population theory because I could provide data showing the Canucks went all the way to the Cup Finals under the NDP.

    "I distrust the BC NDP because of its horrid past running the province and support no other party. Do you get it yet?"

    All I get is you have a personal problem with the NDP and no actual data to back it up.

    As for "no other party". Oh right. You never criticise the Liberals no matter what the subject of the article is. Instead you ignore the article and slag the NDP.

    You have also demonstrated a large dollop of paranoia by claiming you're bravely standing up to the NDP and won't be shut up as if Carol James had a contract out on your head.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Why would she bother?

    JStog comprehends neither facts nor logic....

    He confuses association with causation.

    The province of Saskatchewan reached its highest population (921,000) and was the third biggest province in the country in the 1920s. Generally speaking it has been downhill ever since...and the CCF didn't form the first government in the province until 1944.

    Some things just have NO CAUSAL CONNECTION to politics and the fate of rural population is one of those.

    The attempt to blame gross population trends on whomever happens to be in power in Victoria is pathetic.

    But not surprising - given the fact that BC ranks well down the list (in terms of GDP/capita) among provinces at this particular time is a much better indicator of the horror that the CEO has wrought during his 8 years of reach-arounds to his business enablers and puppet masters.

    If you want a real horror story, have a look at where the 'BCLiberal' party gets its money.....

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    The Worst in BC History

    The Worst population growth in BC History was under an NDP Government. Thats a Fact.

    ................... Population Growth%
    2001-2006... 4,113,487... 5.3
    1996-2001... 3,907,738... 4.9 < worst ever <
    1991-1996... 3,724,500... 13.5
    1986-1991... 3,282,061... 13.8
    1981-1986... 2,883,367... 5.1
    1976-1981... 2,744,467... 11.3
    1971-1976... 2,466,608... 12.9
    1966-1971... 2,184,621... 16.6
    1961-1966... 1,873,674... 15.0
    1951-1961... 1,629,082... 16.5
    1941-1951... 1,165,210... 42.5

    1941... 817,861... 17.8
    1931... 694,263... 32.3
    1921... 524,582... 33.7
    1911... 392,480... 119.7
    1901... 178,657... 82.0
    1891... 98,173... 98.5
    1881... 49,459... 36.4
    1871... 36,247

    Source: Statistics Canada

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Population growth

    The Liberal numbers from 2001 to 2006 don't look too hot either although I realize you'd never say anything negative about them.

    The NDP was also in power from 1991 to 1996 and I don't see anyone complaining about population growth during that time frame.

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @ JStog

    Quote:
    jimmy_laroux has not debuked anything. He's confirmed it. Something you could have done.

    Wow. Are you really that stupid? The trend clearly continued under the liberals in many of those ridings. If the declining rural population was an indication of NDP incompetence, then the similar trend after the NDP left power must indicate Liberal incompetence, right? Or is it only bad if the NDP do it?

    Quote:
    The Worst population growth in BC History was under an NDP Government.

    But BC grew at a much faster rate under the NDP than under the Liberals. And the rate of population growth under the Liberals was nearly the same as under the NDP.

    Consider the population growth of Vancouver over the last 20 years:

    http://cuer.sauder.ubc.ca/cma/data/Population/population-pctgrowth-vancouver.pdf

    Population growth was greatest in the early nineties. Although it dropped considerably in the late nineties, it's been fairly constant since then.

  • Josava

    3 years ago

    What Garbage

    I cant believe you people buy into this as facts. These "Facts" were compiled by The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives' Marc Lee - aka the ND freakin P!! Even with a global downturn in the economy things will never be as bad as they were with the NDP in power in the 90's and that's shocking really. But hey if you all think we should give the keys of power back to biggest idiots in BC political history, be my guest. How quick we forget....

  • spartikus

    3 years ago

    Actually, Josava

    They were compiled by BC Stats. You know, the government.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Biggest louts

    Sorry Josava - that's who we have running the show today...and that's the problem.

  • cfvua

    3 years ago

    Job losses

    Hey what about Peace River NOrth, more fuel for the "forgotten North mantra".
    We are losing population here faster than you can slam the apartment door. Mainly due to Campbell's big natural gas producer buddies bringing in Alberta workers. I know they might be short of work over there, but please don't use the NOrtheast as a refugee zone. It was a busy winter here, but in order to work you had to be from Alberta. Expect more loss as service companies auction equipment and lay off people. Certainly won't be much income tax flowing from here to Victoria this year.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    jimmy_laroux

    Are you unable to read? I was agreeing with you. You researched the facts further and posted your trend. Good on you. Did I call you stupid?

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @ JStog

    Quote:
    Are you unable to read? I was agreeing with you.

    Really? You didn't write the following?

    Quote:
    Rural Families lost jobs and homes because of the BC NDP's incompetence during the 1990s.

    You claim that the NDP is "incompetent" and provide rural population decline in the nineties as evidence of "NDP incompetence". But clearly similar decline has occurred under the Liberals, so there is little or no correlation between the party in power and decline in rural population in the ridings you mention. In other words, this is not a sensible way to compare the performance of the two parties.

    Quote:
    jimmy_laroux has not debuked anything. He's confirmed it.

    What I confirmed was that you are full of sh*t.

  • JStog

    3 years ago

    jimmy_laroux

    Let me say it louder. Apparently your potty has run over.

    I'm not comparing political party's

    Yes Rural Families lost jobs and homes because of the BC NDP's incompetence during the 1990s.

    The BC NDP's still incompetent and in denial they did anything wrong in the past

  • Frank

    3 years ago

    Flailing arms is sooo cute

    "Yes Rural Families lost jobs and homes because of the BC NDP's incompetence during the 1990s. "

    I don't think you know what the word "because" means.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Still having problems

    With basic logic I see JStog.

    Would you like me to recomment an elementary text?

    Perhaps just look up logical fallacy - confusing cause and effect - it's a little simpler and may help you climb out of the hole you've dug for yourself.

  • jimmy_laroux

    3 years ago

    @ JStog

    Quote:
    Yes Rural Families lost jobs and homes because of the BC NDP's incompetence during the 1990s.

    And, using your logic, BC lost jobs and homes over the last eight years do to Liberal incompetence.

    But you've provided no the slightest evidence to connect NDP policies (or Liberal policies, for that matter) with population decline, as Frank and G West have pointed out above. Your population statistics indicate nothing.

    Quote:
    The BC NDP's still incompetent...

    And you are still talking out of your a$$.

  • hansolo

    3 years ago

    NDP VS Right Wing Government

    I too did my own research looking at stats
    Canada BC Stats and more. Employment growth
    in BC from 92-94 increased steadily then
    was the Asian money meltdown that hurt BC
    but we started to recover in 99-2000.
    Unemployment in BC under VanderZalm's Socred government was consistently higher than
    Ontario and the Prairie provinces and the national average once the NDP took over
    unemployment rates in BC was lower than the national average, Ontario and all provinces east of Ontario. There is the hole in the lie that BC NDP took us from first to worst
    cause we were not BC didn't have the best
    economy in Canada when the NDP took over.

  • Bam Bam

    3 years ago

    Liberals

    Time for them to go, the numbers are in ..We were better off with the N.D.P. at least they listen to what the voters want. I wish Carol would keep hammering the wage increases that these crooks got not 3 weeks in office. Hammer the Liberals. She has got to start fighting and hammering the Liberal blunders and mistakes. Add all the extra taxes these Liberals have implemented in 8 years, and still we are running deficits??NO!!Greed again from a political party that does not belong on the West Coast..Remember we are not Liberals out here. God even the Conservatives would be better out here. Its time to wipe them out of office. and take Suzuki with you hes a hipocrit. levaes all his lights on 24/7 he also was a polluter when he was a mountain climber. biggest scammer in Canadian History. Please B.C. Vote N.D.P. this time enough of Eastern tax and spend on themselves party" their new nickname is the LIEABLES!!

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