Topic
Harper's agenda must be stopped by Liberals, NDP and Bloc.
Cartoon by Ingrid Rice.
Was the federal election just a bad dream? After five weeks of fear and loathing, disappointment and disbelief, Canadians woke up to election results that were hardly different than when the election started. Most of the commentary since has been about numbers and pro-Harper media spin. The man who is claiming a new "enhanced" mandate actually received 168,737 fewer votes than last time but garnered an additional 19 seats. The turnout, at 59 per cent, was the lowest in our history, which means that the Harper Conservatives will govern the country with the support of fewer than 23 per cent of the eligible voters. Democracy in Canada has seldom seemed so corrupted or so unrepresentative.
For many of the 62 per cent who voted against Harper and his unhidden agenda, there has been an outpouring of demands for a coalition government of the Liberals, NDP and Bloc to form a minority government as soon as they can conceivably bring down the Harper government.
The movement for proportional representation suddenly has thousands of new recruits and supporters as Fair Vote Canada's website is being flooded with visitors and its petition has been sent out through hundreds of individual e-mail lists.
Those of us on the left can be enraged by Harper's win, but we should not be surprised. The political right has been working for this result for some 20 years with a campaign deliberately aimed at lowering Canadians' expectations of what is possible from government, and hence elections. The campaign to give democracy a cold shower actually started with the 1975 publication of a book called The Crisis of Democracy. Put out by the Trilateral Commission, the most powerful elite group in the world at the time, it concluded that there was an "excess of democracy." The authors lamented that the public now questioned "the legitimacy of hierarchy, coercion, discipline, secrecy, and deception -- all of which are in some measure inescapable attributes of the process of government." A governable democracy, the American co-author Samuel P. Huntington wrote, requires a large degree of "apathy and non-involvement." That they now have it is no accident.
Deficit terrorism, surplus suppression
For the succeeding 30 years, corporate think tanks, media outlets and foundations got down to work to rid the world of its excess of democracy. In Canada, beginning with the national debate on the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement, the neo-liberal movement waged an extremely effective campaign along the lines of "there is no alternative" -- known by its acronym TINA. In the late '80s through the early 1990s the focus was the deficit and it was relentless: thousands of articles, TV programs, editorials, academic studies and political campaigns warned about hitting the "debt wall."
But always connected with the deficit terror campaign was the solution: cutting government spending -- specifically, social spending. The result? In 1995, when Paul Martin slashed federal social spending by 40 per cent, Canadians barely complained. Other aspects of the campaign denigrated government and those who provided its front line services. Preston Manning characterized government as having its "hands in taxpayers' pockets."
Just two years after Martin's cuts, Ottawa began racking up increasing, multi-billion dollar surpluses -- surpluses which threatened to once again increases people's expectations. They were quickly dispensed with, first by paying down the debt and second by the biggest corporate and high income tax cuts in Canadian history. Harper, of course, continued with the project.
Where Layton and May stumbled
But given Canadians' resilient attachment to progressive values, this world of lowered expectations could be challenged by genuine visionary political leadership. Nothing can be expected from the Bay Street Liberals whose shameless "running from the left" strategy should fool no one. There is a temptation to feel sorry for Dion given the ruthless personal attacks on him by Harper and Co. But this was the man who supported every piece of legislation that Stephen Harper could muster in his two and a half years as PM. Only as part of a minority government can we expect anything but corporate kow-towing from this politically compromised machine.
And the NDP, which actually has a collection of progressive policies, has yet to take on the challenge of raising expectations. Canadians are looking for someone who gives them hope for the future. The NDP gives them clever tactics, catch phrases and a virtual prime minister. Looking at the NDP campaign, as smooth and smart as it was, the whole was far less than the sum of its parts. The party seems incapable of getting beyond the momentary imperative of strategy and tactics to offer a vision that Canadians so desperately seek. We want leaders but we still get managers.
Looking south, it is ironic that Barack Obama, whose policies are almost universally mainstream Democratic Party (that is, mostly reactionary) is running a campaign based on values and hope. But in Canada, his ostensible counterpart, Jack Layton, a man whose policies really are progressive, failed to provide hope or vision because, we have to assume, he and his party thought Canadians weren't ready to respond to such a bold campaign. They were wrong.
As for Elizabeth May, she actually sounded like a leader, not boxed in by the careful scripting and focus-group-think that the other leaders demonstrated. But she, too, had a major flaw. May has always known that in a first-past-the-post system a small party divides the electorate. She could easily have won the party's leadership based on this understanding and made it clear from the beginning that she would not run candidates in competitive ridings where the Conservatives could be defeated. That is, until the country got proportional representation. Instead, she went for the money -- the $1.95 per vote trumped her principles. But then she tried to have her pie and eat it, too. Three times promoting strategic voting and then unconvincingly denying she had, she failed to exhibit the one essential trait of any successful political leader: good judgement.
What to expect of Harper now
For a smart politician, Stephen Harper has twice thrown away majority victories with moves that are breathtaking in their stupidity. His comments on culture (much worse than the actual cuts) and his pledge to send 14-year-olds to prison for life are headed for the political history books. For a party with an absolute lock on its core supporters, both these policy initiatives were inexplicable. They not only lost him the majority he desperately wanted, but may have set him and his party back permanently in Quebec. After all, he has given the province everything they asked for already, in a cynical strategy to get seats. What will he do for an encore?
There is no hidden Harper agenda. It is there for all to see. A rigid ideologue who detests government, he will continue to corrupt Canadian democracy and political culture with negative advertising, aggressive partisanship, out-right lies and cynical policy initiatives aimed at capturing carefully calculated segments of the population.
At the same time, Harper will resume the implementation of his plan to diminish the nation through more tax cuts, a gradual end to federal spending powers, and the devolution of more power to the provinces. Harper's true vision of the federal government's role is restricted to funding the military, the RCMP, CSIS and the Bank of Canada. Medicare, post-secondary education, climate change, poverty reduction, cultural and social development, indeed all collective solutions to the problems facing Canada would be left up to a balkanized state with 10 disparate parts pulling in 10 directions.
And on a parallel track with the Security and Prosperity Partnership, Harper will facilitate the integration of a fatally weakened Canadian nation into the U.S., just as that failed state enters the final stages of its decline.
Stephen Harper must be forced from office at the earliest opportunity, to be replaced by a new minority government representing the vast majority of Canadians. The Liberals, NDP and the Bloc must start planning for it now.
Related Tyee stories:
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
114
Login or register to post comments
Skywalker
4 years ago
It does warm the heart.
I will admit tht a three party coalition does make the heart warm. Whether it is possible depends on the Bloq being able to put their separatist platform on hold. That will be hard to do with any degree of credibility. The other two parties might not want to risk possibly being used by the Bloq or risk the perception of being used. It would be better if the Bloq aimply gave up on their separatist vision as it just isn't going to happen.
Frank
4 years ago
Mr Dobbin
Canada already has a coalition of the Left, its called the NDP.
The Liberals are not on the Left, they are simply to the left of the Conservatives occupying what they call the centre. And if they're smart they will move to the Right under their next leader and challenge the Conservatives head on with the same policies.
anarcho
4 years ago
Hope is what we need!
It is true that the right-wing has always sought to kill hope. In this manner better to dominate and exploit us. And it is also true that the left of late, has spent little time in counter-acting this. You would think we would be trumpeting to the skies the fact that productivity has more than doubled in 30 years. Thus, a 40 hour work week was the norm in 1970, why not 20 hours now? Or how about "25 and out" ? - everyone works 25 years then goes on pension to do what they really want. Year in and year out a trillion dollars are wasted world wide on military nonsense. If even half of this had been used to eliminate poverty, it would no longer exist. And so on...
dave49
4 years ago
The future of the NDP
As Gerald Caplan said in the Globe and Mail:
"Just as Canadians seem instinctively to have set a ceiling beyond which they won't trust Stephen Harper, so for 75 years there's been a rigid ceiling on NDP support. It's an ironclad truth that doesn't become less valid just because many New Democrats won't face it".
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081015.WStrategists15/BNStory/politics/home/?pageRequested=all]
I have voted NDP at times, but the man is asking a hard question which I feel many committed people on the left choose to ignore.
kl
4 years ago
Natural Governing Party
The problem with Dobbin's premise is that the Liberals see themselves as the Natural Governing Party of Canada. This period in time in their minds is a blip that will be rectified and they will go back to having their majority.
Also, as others have stated, the Liberals are not on the left of the political spectrum. Merely, some Liberal MP's may be to the left of Harper but most are economically aligned with the Conservatives. The Liberals and Conservatives are one and the same as far as I am concerned.
sirjohna
4 years ago
wow! looks like this author
wow! looks like this author is obsessed with fear AND fearmongering. how out of touch is this sentiment? why is the left always in denial when they're defeated fairly and squarely? didn't your parents teach you to be good losers?
bring on the coalition. can't wait!
biscotti
4 years ago
Prime Minister Layton
...is Gerald Caplan's pointed name for the NDP leader. Very astute commentary on his part in the Globe - thanks, Dave49.
Although I voted NDP, I found the intellectual dishonesty of Layton's pretense about winning the entire election completely idiotic. The ghost of Rosemary Brown must have been groaning.
There are probably analysts out there who can track how many NDP voters moved right in the last 20 years, not to the Liberal Party, but to Reform, then Alliance and now Conservative. It's high time the NDP took a hard look at how the party has lost touch with working class voters, especially outside the major urban centres.
As for a coalition, it will take sustained grassroots organizing and action to force the parties to do this. In spite of the election results, the NDP still seems mired in denial and the delusions of winning it all some day down the road, without doing the work that might actually get them there.
I think it was Fidel who pushed the 3 main Sandinista factions ("tendencies") to join together in the late 1970s, and their combined forces enabled them to defeat the dictator Somoza. I doubt Obama will do this for Canadian parties! Must be up to us...
In spite of some of their policy overlaps, I don't totally equate the Conservatives with the Liberals. I think Conservative governments are causing more damage, more quickly, than Liberal ones. But the contradictions and conflicts (continentalism vs sovereignty, for starters) among Liberals remain extremely problematic for the party, let alone any prospects of electoral or Parliamentary coalitions.
G West
4 years ago
Whatever!
Although I certainly don't disagree that the Liberals and the Conservatives are birds of a feather, I do think that this election may offer a unique opportunity to get the good people who vote for the Paul Martin Liberals to look a little more closely at who and what they have been supporting.
What I mean is that there is a fundamental disconnect between the neo-liberal philosophy of the upper echelons of the Liberal party structure - which is clearly anti-democratic - and the lower reaches of the party and, more important, all the thousands of citizens who have been voting for this bunch while mistakenly believing there is any connection to the Lester Pearson Liberals of the past.
Just as there is NO connection between the John Diefenbaker Progressive Conservatives [who actually saw the need for fundamental tax reform, gave the vote to First Nations Citizens for the first time and created the Bill of Rights] and the current 'Conservative' party of Pee Wee Rambo and his caucus of ‘pigmies’.
And that, as Dobbin points out, is where the progressive voices in Canada have a lot of work to do.
Somehow, in the absence of an independent and thinking media, that message has to be taken to the people.
If you want change in this country – real change – it is not going to come from right wing liberals and conservative.
egmont rapids
4 years ago
NDP
Need to stick to their guns, the Liberals are going the way of the dinosaur,I totaly disagree with a coalition of the left.
The Ndp ARE THE PARTY OF THE LEFT, to have the Liberals join the NDP all you will do is destroy the NDP with TOXIC,POISONOUS,DESPERATE,CAPUT, 21 CENTURY WHIGS known as federal Liberals!
The Liberals will sit on their hands again and keep Harper in goverment, the real and only official opposition (as actions will expose) ARE THE NDP.
The NDP will surpass the Liberals(whigs)in the next federal election.
One can only hope that the NDP is smart enough to avoid the --LATE,NOT SO GREAT LIBERAL PARTY OF EASTERN CANADA
Tieleman
4 years ago
No thanks to Coalition of non-Conservatives
I always appreciate Murray Dobbin's thoughtful analysis but this piece is simply way off the mark.
First - the Liberals are not progressive, no matter how many times Stephane Dion says it. They supported the Conservative corporate tax cuts, the killed the anti-scab legislation twice, did nothing on climate change for a decade in power, etc, etc.
Second - the Bloc Quebecois are separatists, first and foremost. There are some social democratic tendencies but those are secondary.
Any party that would seriously propose an alliance with the Bloc could kiss its electoral chances goodbye.
Third - the Greens are not left. Their last leader was a former Conservative and Elizabeth May worked for Brian Mulroney's government. Their policies, if ever seriously examined, would be anathema to most Canadians - like hiking the GST.
I don't want a two-party system like the US, where progressive voters are always faced with putting water in their wine to try to prevent - usually unsuccessfully - Bush type presidents.
Fortunately in a Parliamentary democracy we don't have to make that choice. We can send our own representatives to the House of Commons and vote our conscience and beliefs. Sure not every riding can elect a progressive member but when enough do the NDP can form the balance of power.
Lastly, Layton ran a good campaign personally but the advertising effort was seriously flawed - as was the decision to suggest Layton was running for prime minister.
dgrant
4 years ago
Yep
We need a new electoral system OR parties that are going to lose for sure in ridings need to drop out of those ridings in exchange for other parties dropping out in other ridings (that would mean the Greens disappearing completely, maybe winning a couple seats). The latter is not going to happen, so a new electoral system is really the ONLY sensible solution. I'm glad that it is getting more attention now.
Bobby Peru
4 years ago
No Way Left
How hilarious. Yeah, the NDP is supposed to be a coalition of the Canadian Left and now that they can't possibly win a Federal election Dobbin suggests a broader coalition of Liberals and Bloc.
Bloc is only interested in what's good for Quebec. They want the power of being in the Federal Govt but none of the responsibility of governing the Rest of Canada.
Dobbin should examine the collection of obnoxious leftists in the NDP that make it appear too radical and irresponsible to the avg Canadian. Most Canadians don't think Harper is too radical at all and is counterbalanced by the current Parliament.
Rather than face its shortcomings and adapt, the NDP is only hoping for Liberals and Bloc to move in their direction. What a hopeless strategy. Face it, Canadians aren't as left as you'd like them to be.
G West
4 years ago
The greens - are not a party of the left
Last time I checked Elizabeth May's party didn't get any seats on October 14...what role would 'they' play in a parliamentary coalition?
As to a formal coalition between the Libs, the NDP and the Bloc...I don't think the Bloc would go for it.
That said, I think a 'deal' could be worked out to garner Bloc support on an issue by issue basis...which is what Harper's going to have to do anyway.
The Liberals and the NDP together can't bring down the Tories so the Bloc is the key to the alliance.
So, if you're correct Bill and an alliance with the Bloc would prove toxic for the 'left' do you think that's equally true for Pee Wee if and when (as he obviously must) he turns to Duceppe to retain his hegemony in the House?
I disagree about Layton's campaign by the way - I think, as several others have suggested, that fifty years of shuffling and tugging our forelock and saying we’re here to be a 'good' opposition are more than enough.
The CCF were within striking distance of forming government in Mackenzie King's day - the coming economic catastrophes may well bring about similar 'interesting' circumstances.
The obvious similarities between the Martin/Dion Liberals and the Harper Conservatives will - taking the correct approach - work to the advantage of all those many Canadians [whose interests are not being represented now] and the left. Not to mention the re-introduction of actual democracy in the country.
G West
4 years ago
Most canadians???
less than 22 percent Bobby.
sirjohna
4 years ago
10% of eligible voters chose
10% of eligible voters chose the ndp. not sure they're qualified to lead a coalition o anything with those numbers.
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
Hard Question with an Easy Answer?
dave49
I have voted NDP at times, but the man is asking a hard question which I feel many committed people on the left choose to ignore.
If the NDP cannot break through some glass ceiling of 20%, which seems to have been ratcheted down to 18% in a post-1993 world, is it necessarily the case that some vast, unmovable, historic obstacle stands in the way? Or could it be the repeated accumulation of lesser things which have produced and are continuing to produce this result?
Let me just give one example. Turn on your TV to an American channel during this election year and take a look at the ads for President, Governor, or what have you. See all the negative ads? Of course, and you've seem similar ads in Canada from the Liberals and Conservatives.
But not from the NDP. For the NDP, it's a constant diet of milquetoast imagery and pollyana content. Why? I believe the reason is that if the NDP did run hard-hitting negative commercials that actually impacted voters the idealists in the party's apparatus and structure would not tolerate it. Feminists would object that the ads appealed to male instincts for violence. Pacificists would echo this sentiment. Social workers and teachers would not be impressed either. So the NDP's hands are tied behind its back. It can make a warm fuzzy appeal, and then in the final days when the going gets rough, sit and watch helplessly as its potential breakthrough to the mid twenty percent range gets chiselled down to 17 or 18 percent, all over again.
Specifically, they can watch as a million or more average Canadians who style themselves feminists, pacifists, and humanists - the very people the party's employees and activists claim to speak for, and on whose supposed behalf they forcefully prevented any negative stuff - frantically join the Liberal bandwagon to stop Harper. It's all totally predictable, a political sit-com script played out many times in the last fifteen years, as if a million Canadian were just blow-up dolls tailor made for the electoral needs of the Hedy Fry campaign. And in 2012, with Mr Dobbin's help, it will all repeat itself verbatim.
Let me close by saying two things. First, Dobbin's suggestion of a parliamentary gangup is fundamentally unprincipled and objectionable. If the roles were reversed, if the NDP had 140 seats and 38% of the vote, and all the other parties suddenly coalesced to keep them out of office, I would be angry as Hell. So why should I recommend that the NDP join a morally equivalent machination?
And does no one else find it odd that Dobbin's piece never once mentions the fact that large numbers of Liberal MPs, to say nothing of their upper-middle class support base, are virulently anti-labour and anti-union? How would Dobbin's ramshackle coalition handle issues such as federal employment, federal labour legislation, pension regulation, and foreign worker policies? Dobbin couldn't care less.
egmont rapids
4 years ago
Trash journalism?
Bias?
Cries of Liberal desperetness?
Lack of substance?
Change parlimentary rules to re-vamp a dead and dying party?
I will quote Danny Williams of New Foundland but change the subject manner.
" How low can you go "
Is this the New and last ditch desperate manouver to save the Liberal part of eastern Canada?
Where is the acknoledgemend to the above story (Paid for by the Liberal party of Canada)?
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
It's the Voters Final Decision...
The federal NDP is perceived as left-wing, the party of the Svend Robinsons, the Libby Davies...
The federal NDP is not the party of small "l" liberals such as former BC Premiers Harcourt, Miller, Dosanjh, as well as ON's Rae, SK's Romanow or for that matter current Manitoba premier Gary Doer.
They are more aligned and in tune with federal Liberal policy positions than with left-wing federal NDP positions.
For that matter, the federal NDP is declining in BC.
The BC federal NDP lost around 3% of their BC vote from 2006 standing at ~26%, which is well below their lofty heights achieved during the '60's, '70's and '80's.
1965 - 33%
1968 - 33%
1972 - 35%
1979 - 32%
1980 - 35%
1984 - 35%
1988 - 37%
Heck, even the birth place of the CCF, Saskatchewan, has failed to elect an NDP MP for a few elections in a row.
Conservative bastion Alberta has more NDP'ers than SK (Edmonton-Strathcona) albeit a win by a hair in a seat they won in 1988.
With all of the stars aligning for the federal NDP in this election... an $18.5 million bank loan and a totally useless Dion (along with a totally useless "Green Shift") the NDP could only increase its national vote total percentage-wise by around .5%.
They have likely hit their proverbial glass ceiling and it's likely all downhill from here.
The current federal dynamics are this: Layton wants to replace the Liberals and also likely wants to hold a non-confidence motion every few weeks to bring the government down. The Canadian populace does not want another election.
The NDP and the Liberals will obviosuly never be able to work together (too much animosity) and nobody wants to work with the sovereignist BQ.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Budd...
Perhaps ya were watching KABC in LA?? ;)
The NDP did have television attack ads from the very beginning... against the Tories... and all the way through the campaign. Where were you? :)
I'd have to say, though, that the final NDP attack ads utilizing cartoon images were a bit silly.
Winner of the BC attack ad battle? The Tories anti-NDP "Ottawa NDP" ads. Very simple message and very effective.
politico
4 years ago
Where issues go to die
Now that Dobbins inked it, its dead.
seth
4 years ago
Environmentalists boycott the Green Party
Adding to Dobbin's sorry prospects for the progressive voter are our oh so earnest green folk currently preparing to ensure that Gordo and minions win another election and BC gets its environment trashed for another four years.
Harper's Christian fundamentalists with less than 1% of the population were able to take over virtually every Conservative constituency association in Canada merely by loading parishioners into buses, selling them memberships and massing them at poorly attended nominating meetings.
Instead of running their own candidates, why are the Greens not duplicating Harper's success, nominating all those new woman candidates for the NDP and/or federal Liberals. Where are the "Church of Gaia" convoys of bio diesel buses loaded up with green supporters ready to hijack every NDP and Liberal constituency in the country. Surely if Harper's fanatics can do it with the 1% of Canadians who are evangelicals, the Green's should be able to do it with their committed 10%.
Lazy, stupid, greedy (for the $2 a vote) or just the Neocon's favorite "useful idiots, these Green pond skimmers must really enjoy watching the Harper/Campbell far right coalition destroy Canada's environment. Perhaps a visit to Fort Chipewyan for a look at those hundreds of natives with tar sand cancers might convince them that their idealistic and puerile disagreements with NDP/Liberal progressives are actually killing people.
Frank
4 years ago
Luke
Romanow and Doer are federal Liberals? Nice try. They meet and confer with Jack, not Stephane. They call themselves NDPers, not Liberals. Are the liberals that desperate they're now trying to claim NDPers are really Liberals?
As for Layton's campaign, Angus Reid polling says it was the best in Canada this election.
As for Saskatchewan, the NDP didn't win seats there most fo the time even when Tommy Douglas was head of the federal NDP. Oh, and by the way, Canada's Greatest Canadian was pretty left-wing too.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Frank...
Small "l" liberals....
I guess it bears repeating from another thread that Doer is lowering corporate taxes for Manitoba to become one of the lowest provincially in Canada by 2012.
Is that a federal NDP position? NADA.
His government has also been described as more akin to a federal Liberal government than any federal NDP government.
And Doer has also described himself as a small "l" liberal.
As for Romanow, his policy stances were not that much different and was even asked to run federally for the Liberals back in 2004 (?), but obviously felt that he would be the subject of too much NDP flak and anger in SK, similarly to what both Dosanjh and Rae have experienced.
BTW, there is a political distinction between the Svend Robinson's and Libby Davies of the world and the Harcourts, Millers, Dosanjhs, etc.
As for why some progressives are drifing away from the NDP to the Liberals... here's another interesting viewpoint:
http://blongstaff.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-i-am-drifting-away-from-ndp.html
Frank
4 years ago
Luke
Guess you didn't hear about the Saskatchewan (Conservative) party pulling an NDP move (remember Alexa?) and increasing the basic personal exemption by $4,000 and the child benefit by $2,000. As well as increasing the tax credit for people that don't pay tax.
Conservative or Liberal policy? NADA. All NDP baby.
Guess that means from now on you'll be calling Brad Wall an NDPer?
As for Romanow, he said no to running for the Liberals because he isn't one. Just as Doer sees himself as an NDPer which is why he runs under that banner and not the Liberal one.
Fact is, there IS policy differences between NDPers like Doer and Romanow and the Liberals, you just prefer not to acknowledge them.
And finally, as for NDPers drifting to the Libs, seems like its more the other way around. How many votes did the Libs lose in the last 4 elections? 2 million? Whereas the NDP votes massively increased.
Frank
4 years ago
Liberal votes in
Liberal votes in 2000
5,252,031
NDP votes in 2000
1,093,868
Liberal votes in 2008
3,629,990
NDP votes in 2000
2,517,075
My god, that's nearly a 50% decline in Liberal support and a 230% increase in NDP support in just 8 years.
deeby
4 years ago
Sharing a big tent....
...is something I've forced myself to consider after this most recent result, and I've been able to imagine casting my lot with the likes of Harcourt or Romanow, after voting for Mitchell and Davies in Van-East for years.
However when I consider that I'd also have to endorse the Clarks, Marissens and Bornmans of this world, I get hives.
So go ahead and create the coalition. Just make sure to leave out the slickie backroom types and the morally bankrupt true believers on all sides of the fence....
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Frank...
Excellent move by Brad Wall! He's only following the footsteps of BC, which has the lowest personal income tax burden of any province in Canada on earnings up to $111,000.
Sheesh, these are tax reductions that were all implemented after the NDP was booted from office in their respective provinces.
You seem more and more as a likely BC Liberal voter after all! ;)
That's why they are referred to as orange Liberal parties in SK and MB.
Granted, the Liberals had a crappy leader in Dion with a crappy "Green Shift" platform centre-piece that no one was interested in. "It's the economy, stupid." Many Liberal voters either stayed home or voted for the Tories. Certainly Liberals didn't go over to the NDP, whose vote dropped in English Canada over 2006.
As an aside, with Dion's "centre-left" credentials, if Dion ran provincially in BC it certainly would be for the NDP.
Frank
4 years ago
Luke
Your new NDPer Brad Wall cut taxes by increasing the basic exemption, something me and Alexa McDonough were calling for while Brad was still in university.
Your Campbell cuts aren't the same.
As for Sask, I lived there, and never heard the NDP called "orange Liberals". If Liberals like to say that, then okay whatever.
As for Dion and the falling Liberal numbers, they were falling for the 3 elections before Dion took over. Its the brand that's in trouble and its why I think you guys should move to the Right.
Wilfred Laurier
4 years ago
Dogma, Karma and Ideaology
I agree with one of the above posters. Layton running around pretending that he had a chance to be PM was simply asinine, a real insult to voters.
Numbers can be spun any way one wants, but the NDP remains at around 20% and has been there forever. That is because the NDP is a party that sticks to a very rigid ideology. The other main parties adjust their policies to what they think voters want.
In the last election, Dion believed that voters would buy his Green Shift platform. The polls told him as much but when push comes to shove, being Green is Great until it involves some change in lifestyle. Dion was wrong and paid the price.
Harper only had to play slow and steady as she goes and he was guaranteed a win. He was well financed but he blew his majority pandering to the right wing crackpots in this cacus.
Layton, in true NDP style, preached to the choir.
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
Luke Skywalker: What is your source for any of this
Luke Skywalker
I guess it bears repeating from another thread that Doer is lowering corporate taxes for Manitoba to become one of the lowest provincially in Canada by 2012.
Is that a federal NDP position? NADA.
What is your source for any of this material?
egmont rapids
4 years ago
Liberals are lost!
Of course Layton said he was running to be the prime minister of Canada.
Should he have said he is running to gain a few seats.
Liberals bled seats to everyone,their worst showing since 1880
I agree with Frank--The NDP are the only opposition to Harper.
The Liberals are willing to adopt,take,change,alter their platform to ANYTHING!
Power is the only motivation for the Liberal party!
The Liberals would go to bed with anyone for power.
When the Dion Liberals sit on their hands again in the commons will show what their made of---Tumbleweeds and Weather Vanes
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
Wilfred: Is it asinine to call someone "an old line socialist"?
Wilfred Laurier
I agree with one of the above posters. Layton running around pretending that he had a chance to be PM was simply asinine, a real insult to voters.
"simply asinine" is it Wilfied? A party leader or candidate isn't allowed to have some fun playing the expectations game, teasing the pompous officials of the other parties and the even more pompous pundits by making bold predictions. That is what you think is asinine, is it Wilfred?
What do you think a reasonable person, that is to say, someone who is not a political junkie, would find asinine? Do you think it's asinine to repeatedly call someone an "old line socialist" just because they want to keep business income tax rates at their present level?
Frank
4 years ago
Liberal math
In 2000, the NDP popular vote was 8.5%, in 2008 it was 18.2%
To most people, that looks like a gain.
To Liberals that means the NDP is "stuck".
Meanwhile, the Liberals losing a million and a half voters over 3 elections is a "blip".
This is why Canadians don't trust the Liberals, they can't do math.
Romanow and Doer on the other hand are quite competent which is why they don't run as Liberals in spite of being begged to.
Frank
4 years ago
Luke
In spite of the fact that Brad Walls did something Alexa and I agree with, I won't be calling him an NDPer.
For the same reason that just because Doer did something you liked (cutting corporate taxes) doesn't make him a right-winger.
And that reason is you have to look at the whole ball of wax, not just one policy choice in isolation from all the rest.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Doer.... and the NDP
Budd:
Here's a good place to start and not an NDP-friendly place at that:
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=846352&p=1
And then last week praise was bestowed upon Premier Gary Doer from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation! Go figure!
The same Gary Doer allowing IPP wind power generation in Manitoba.
Federal NDP policy?? Even BC NDP policy? NADA. Too right-wing for them. That's why Doer is where he is politically and the rest... well...
Frank:
Yeah, in Western Canada most NDP voters deserted the NDP in droves in the 1990's and fled to the right-wing Reform Party. That's quite a political leap and represents a chunk of that vote differential.
Former NDP BC seats cum Reform BC seats such as Skeena-Bulkley Valley, BC Southern Interior, Nanaimo-Cowichan, which are now again NDP. Never were a "bastion" of Liberal voters. ;)
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
All just political chatter
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=846352&p=1
And then last week praise was bestowed upon Premier Gary Doer from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation! Go figure!
The same Gary Doer allowing IPP wind power generation in Manitoba.
Federal NDP policy?? Even BC NDP policy? NADA. Too right-wing for them. That's why Doer is where he is politically and the rest... well...
This is all just political chatter. As for the Post being a serious source, ...
Frank:
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
If Ya Talk the Talk... Ya Better Walk the Walk...
Budd:
Manitoba 2008 Budget Highlights:
1. The general corporate tax rate falls from 14% to 13% effective July 1, 2008;
2. The Province intends to reduce the general corporate tax rate to 11% at a date to be determined subject to balanced budget requirements;
3. The Small Business Rate falls from 2% to 1% effective January 1, 2009
4. Effective July 1, 2008 the Corporate Capital tax (CCT) will be eliminated for manufacturing and processing corporations;
5. The refundable portion of the Manufacturing Investment Tax Credit is increased to 70% from 35% effective January 1, 2008
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/article/0,1002,cid%253D200367,00.html
Canadian Taxpayer's Federation:
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/5619
Manitoba IPP's
http://www.hydro.mb.ca/projects/wind_st_leon.shtml
Certainly not federal NDP or BC NDP policy stances. Again, too far right for 'em and that's why Doer is where he is politically - successful.
Remember those Tory Anti-NDP BC ads during the last election??
Where Harper equated that the "Ottawa NDP" is not like the BC NDP and were, IMHO, successful??
I can also see some BC Liberal Anti-NDP ads along the same lines coming down the pipeline... that is, the BC NDP is not as reasonable and moderate as the MB NDP in order to sway that "middle-of-the-road" voter.
realisticman
4 years ago
allo, is that Gilles?
"Are, Mr. Duceppe, we're really upset here and want to join with you and your Bloc to save Canada. What do you think?"
"What to you mean, save Canada?"
Well, you know, from that Bush loving extreme right-wing-nut Harper."
"What's in it for Québec?"
Well, maybe we can get Danny Boy to give you Labrador, you've always said it was yours anyway."
"Well Labrador has always been ours, so that's no big deal. How about New Brunswick too - and picking up our portion of the 600 billion dollar debt - and 50 billion for readjustment costs, with 10 billion per year in perpetuity for management costs, indexed, of course, plus control over Communications in our jurisdiction and a seat at the UN, plus control of the water and seaways and airspace around our coastline above our land including financing to manage them for the next fifty years, plus half of all Canadian military equipment including all forces, and a seat at the OAS. One last thing, financing for Québec delegations with consular powers in cities around the world that we in Québec want them?"
"Well, we kinda thought you might just wanna help us save Canada, eh?"
"Come back with an off but don't waste my time! Click!"
Frank
4 years ago
Trudeau was an NDPer
Let's face it, him and Pearson increased the role of gov't, introduced social programs etc. Both were NDPers in reality and would have more in common with Layton and Romanow than the likes of Manley, McKenna and Ignatieff.
Come to think of it, even the Alberta Conservatives are NDPers as this Grit from Calgary thinks
http://calgarygrit.blogspot.com/2007/04/albertas-ndp-budget.html
"Manitoba NDP Leader Gary Doer has led his party to a historic third majority government in the province's 39th general election.
...
Doer said the next NDP government would make health care its number one priority, bringing in more nurses, doctors and support staff, resulting in less waiting for Manitobans."
And from the CMAJ
"In Manitoba, Nova Scotia and Ontario the financial incentive to do so is significantly dulled because opted-out physicians cannot bill more than they would receive if they were working within the public plan. In every other province, opted-out physicians can set their fees at any level."
Frank
4 years ago
Winnipeg Free Press on 2007 Doer budget
"Manitoba Budget: A timid blueprint-NDP is expert at thinking inside the box (Dan Lett)
Winnipeg Free Press Thu Apr 5 2007
NO matter how you cut it, the 2007 provincial budget delivered yesterday at the Manitoba legislature is a triumph of thinking “inside the box.” Like a game of financial whack-a-mole, Finance Minister Greg Selinger managed to lay his hammer on all the major issues — taxation, education, health care, the environment. And there was more money for key programs (housing and clean water) and tax cuts. Even business owners, who remain the most aloof of all political constituencies in Manitoba, got a little something to be happy about with downward adjustments to corporate tax and payroll tax.
But as has been the style of this government since it was formed, the benefits of this budget will be largely unseen and back-end-loaded. Things won’t get worse in Manitoba, but evidence that we’re doing better will be hard to find.
And if there was any expectation this budget — largely seen as a springboard for the next provincial election — would demonstrate the reckless abandon of which this government has steered clear for eight years, those hopes were dashed moments after the budget papers were made available to reporters.
Massive tax cuts? The measured, sober attack on corporate and individual taxes that Premier Gary Doer has been waging since early in his first term continues, but in denominations and on schedules that ensure we’ll hardly notice them.
Huge increases in capital spending? There will be more money, but Winnipeg’s roads and the highways surrounding the capital city are still falling apart faster than we can fix them and this budget only slows the decay, it does not stop it.
Remove the burden of education taxes on property? Again, there is relief in the form of an increased property tax credit but Selinger all but dashed any hope the entire education portion of the property tax bill could be hacked off. Selinger said it was “not realistic” and by this time, we know if nothing else he is an expert on realism. Manitoba’s New Democrats are demonstrating the dilemma facing modern Canadian governments. Even modest gestures that carry very little individual benefit cost a lot of money. In Manitoba, where revenue growth is steady but not spectacular thanks to the predisposition of subterranean oil deposits to migrate westward, you can’t write huge cheques now because history shows they can’t be cashed later."
Frank
4 years ago
part 2
"The more important question is whether this budget serves as a platform for a re-election campaign. Pundits and political organizers have been speculating for months that an election is just around the corner. If this budget is going to be the blueprint for the campaign, the NDP is obviously willing to gamble that slow and steady will win the race. And why not? It’s worked before.
In the 1999 election campaign, armed with little more than a pleasant grin and a plan to rid hospital hallways of annoying stretchers, the NDP strolled directly into the path of what at first appeared to be a political juggernaut. Former premier Gary Filmon’s infamous 50-50 plan — $500 million in tax cuts and $500 million in new spending — was unleashed early in that campaign and created an impression by the end of Week 1 that the NDP had nothing to compare with Filmon’s bold policies. As it turned out, Doer & Co. knew something we didn’t know.
Manitobans didn’t like bold and risky back in 1999. They especially didn’t like it coming from someone who earned his political stripes by taking a firm, steady approach to governing. During his time in office, Filmon was cast as the rock of Manitoba politics, a steadying influence who had guided the province through the rocky, reduced-spending, deficit-slaying 1990s with elegance and resolve. When he suddenly started talking about dropping an extra $1 billion on Manitobans like he had just discovered the money hiding under his sofa cushions, it was out of character.
The NDP laid back and watched bold and brave Filmon flounder all the way to defeat. In many ways, Doer has not abandoned that laid-back approach as he has tackled government. But as the Conservative party is proving on the federal stage, Canadians are developing a bit of an appetite for bolder, grander gestures.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been a master at using a smaller list of loftier policies to woo support. Why make voters dizzy with pledges to reduce the percentage of tax rates and slide thresholds for tax brackets? Just give everyone $500. That’s a policy everyone can get behind.
Thinking inside the box has been good to the NDP. It has helped win two elections. And it has denied opposition parties a beachhead on which to launch a viable challenge. But will it be enough to garner a third term? A laid-back approach to reducing education property taxes, in particular, gives the Opposition Conservatives the opportunity for traction. The Tories screwed this issue up royally in 2003, when architects of a plan to eliminate the education portion proved they couldn’t add properly. A realistic plan, with a bolder outcome, could make the NDP vulnerable.
Doing a little on a lot of issues is fine, and Manitoba has seen progress under the NDP. But doing a lot on one or two issues may prove to be the fashionable strategy this time around."
Frank
4 years ago
Luke
The NDP is what it is. You'd prefer however to lop off the pieces you like and call the rest extreme.
It would be easy to look at federal Liberals and contrast them with various provincial Liberals and to do the same with the Cons. There's always going to be differences, even between two leaders of the same party stripe at the same time in different provinces.
Frank
4 years ago
McGuinty versus Campbell
Wouldn't it be nice in BC if we had a real Liberal instead of a "BC Liberal" running the province?
Or if Alberta had a real Conservative like Williams instead of a faux Con like Stelmach?
Hard to believe those pairs are in the same party.
G West
4 years ago
What's the tax rate in Ireland?
And it hasn't kept their economy from going into the toilet either....
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Frank...
Yeah, that's one point we can agree upon and alot of people agree with that.
The BC political scene should be re-aligned like Ontario.
Two large parties... the Liberals (centre/centre-left) and the Tories (centre/centre-right)... with a smaller left-wing NDP in terms of social policy.
For that matter, the last Ontario provincial elections results were:
Lib - 42%
PC - 32%
NDP - 17%
Similar to the federal political scene.
Certainly would be better for the province of BC.
G West
4 years ago
Actually I don't think so
Any proponents of a return to the two party system needs only look south of the 49th to see where that little pas de deux has ended up.
Bring on lots of parties - and let every vote count - the idea that the interests of democracy are best subsumed into two varieties of political beast is a 19th centure idea for a monolithic culture.
Let freedom ring. And, to quote a famous American
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."
Abraham Lincoln - First Inaugural Address (4 March 1861)
I think it's time for the 78% to start socking it to the 22%.
murdock
4 years ago
Left coalition not likely.
First the Federal Liberals are going to start a leadership bloodletting. Only two things are likely to stop it 1) McGuinty saying he wants the job or 2) a back-room deal that sees either Rae or Iggy 'crowned' and the other set up as Finance critic (therefore "Minister" in a future government). With these machinations going on the Liberals will not co-operate with anyone except those that let them get on with this internal exercise without going to the polls until after the 'new' leader gets to set himself on the national stage. This means that the Liberals are more likely to keep the Conservatives in power until at least next summer.
While the Liberals are doing this they will brush off any suggestions of coalition making...since they would not get total control over the coalition and given the 'damaged goods leader' that they have, Dion, none of the other three ego driven leaders will accept him as the collective spokesman.
The BQ will be far more likely to keep the Conservatives in power until after the have 'done in' Charest, this again keeps the Conservatives in power for at least a year.
NDP. Jack will have to account for the slim growth in seats and influence on the federal scene to his bankers...the party may not like what the bankers have to say.
Greens. The green leader can say anything she likes - she will never govern at the rate things are going for many more decades to come...indeed the party may not even get an MP for a generation. As of now whatever the greens have to say will be left off the floor of the Commons since their voice will only be heard in media.
Given all these considerations I'd rate the chance of a coalition as slim to none.
Wilfred Laurier
4 years ago
Budd
Budd, Layton can certainly tell anybody he wants he is going to be the next PM. But, on the other hand, I can tell people I am Mary Poppins and I can fly with my umbrella.
Both are equally likely to happen.
carfreed
4 years ago
united we stand
Well said. We need to be strong. This election showed we must no longer fool around. We know we are together. Is it so hard to let go of what no longer needs to be held onto?
One combined party please. And that includes CAP.(Canadian Action Party) We need all these troopers!
alda
4 years ago
Solidarity's a dirty word
No doubt the differences between the opposition parties are extreme and plentiful, but for the love of God, as Dobbin suggests, do at least not 3 out of these 4 stubborn-as-hell parties understand the broader common purpose ---the desire to eliminate the beast? How hard can it to hold your nose and unify for a short historical time to ensure that, at the very least, rep by pop and fair voting practices be put into place, when you've been a PARTY THAT'S LOST FOR YEARS, in any case?
Elizabeth May is one smart cookie, but I completely agree that she's also myopic (and thus, self-serving) not to see that her party allows the Cons to rule with impunity. Her weakness is far more damaging to the environment than she'll ever know; and, actually, this goes for ALL of them.
Wilfred Laurier
4 years ago
May?
Elizabeth May a "smart cookie?" Running against Peter McKay was smart?
sirjohna
4 years ago
'I think it's time for the
'I think it's time for the 78% to start socking it to the 22%.'
you have to love the way the left fudges the numbers. if only 22% voted for the conservatives, then 10% of the canadian population voted for the ndp, 14% voted for the liberals and about 6% voted for the bloc. don't think that makes 78% of the population. another big joke from the spin doctors and the staffers.
Peter Dimitrov
4 years ago
What incentive is there?
Given that "Political parties are entitled to an annual allowance of $1.75 per vote received by the party in the previous election, provided that candidates endorsed by the party received at least 2% of the valid votes cast in that election...etc"
which is essentially a system to fund political parties...
and that since the Liberals 3,629,752 valid votes translates into about $6.352 million for a cash starved party; and, that 1,379,140 valid votes for the BQ gives them about $2.41 million, and the 2,517,587 votes for the NDP gives them $4.41 million, and the 940,637 votes which the Greens got gives them $1.67 million...
and the Cons get about $9.1 million due to the 5,205,320 valid votes cast,
which makes the Government of Canada the biggest subsidizer of the existing poltiical party "racket" going, and but for that subsidization all the parties would have a hell of a time making a go of it financially...I would be curious to hear from others just what 'financial incentives' exist for the aforementiined so called "left" political parties to form a coalition, never mind political incentives?
Peter Dimitrov
4 years ago
continued...
To put it bluntly why would the BQ forego $2.41 million, or the NDP forego $4.41 million, or the GReens forego $1.67 million to form a 'coaltion'....why would the poltiical cadres inside each of those parties vote to form a coaltion if it meant they would lose their jobs within their existing party, why would a cadre support a coalition if it meant losing control of their little fiefdom within their party. None of the those parties deserve to be on the public purse. Harper's 5.205 million votes only constitutes 22.24% of the total registered voters, the Liberal captured 15.51%, the NDP captured 10.76% of total eligible voters, and the Greens only 4.01% ...none of these parties have a connection to much of a base. ...and the largest coaltion, those who did not vote, approximately 10 million eligible voters, if they could be inspired by a single party platform would form a majority. We need structural change and a proressive vision that inspires us to transcend our divisiveness and non-participation/apathy division. As I see it...essential to that vision, is the concept that Canada is much more than just a place or a geography, but rather stands for a set of ideas, core values, perspectives, and aspirations that if identified and well-articulated would have the transcendental power to bring us together, to invigorate and inspire us, not just by policies, but also by structural change to our out-dated political institutions - not just to stop or oppose Harper and the Con ideology.... but to propose....and thusfar, I don't see that from the Liberals, NDP or Greens, federally or provincially, or municipally for that matter...which is why many are dis-engaging from the party political process. There are far too many 'stale-pop' political parties and candidates ill connected to a base ....that but for financial support from the public purse would be gone from the political landscape.
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
Luke Skywalker: More chatter, more superficial spin
Certainly not federal NDP or BC NDP policy stances. Again, too far right for 'em and that's why Doer is where he is politically - successful.
Remember those Tory Anti-NDP BC ads during the last election??
Where Harper equated that the "Ottawa NDP" is not like the BC NDP and were, IMHO, successful??
I can also see some BC Liberal Anti-NDP ads along the same lines coming down the pipeline... that is, the BC NDP is not as reasonable and moderate as the MB NDP in order to sway that "middle-of-the-road" voter.
Luke, all of it is just slogans and spin, on and on. Ads like this, ads like that. This is just superficial TV generation politics.
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
Wilfred: What's even more likely to happen
Wilfred Laurier
Layton can certainly tell anybody he wants he is going to be the next PM. But, on the other hand, I can tell people I am Mary Poppins and I can fly with my umbrella.
Both are equally likely to happen.
Actually Wilfred, here's what's even more likely to happen. Whatever Layton states as his practical goal in the next election, from status quo, to modest gains, to major gains, to a quantum leap to forming government, you'll find it worth ridiculing. There's a 100% probability of that one!
egmont rapids
4 years ago
Peter Dimitrov
First off if the ten million who didn`t vote---The odds are that the spread would be the same as the electoral results,.
If you ran a ALGORYTHM CHART on those who didn`t vote, the results would mirror the national results/ with the exception of the bloc because the bloc is regional.
I keep hearing the same argument over and over again, someone,some party,some cause is always trying to claim the non-voters as their own private pool of voters.
The first analysis one must make is who isn`t voting?
Immigrants--Mostly unimformed--tendency to vote for who ever is in charge of the country.
Students--selectively informed, yet have no long term memory to affect their vote--tendency to vote on the far left/green/NDP
Drunks,drug addicts,and the lazy--Short term memory--Tendency,they have no tendency
The remaining non voters will vote on a national level that would mirror the results of the past election.
So please,would all of you stop claiming the non-voters.
zalm
4 years ago
On the article...
...I think Dobbin's premise is incorrect, but am willing to take correction.
I sense that the Canadian voter has moved rightward in the last fifteen years based on an unreasoned feeling of satisfaction with their own lives.
Boomers spent the '50s and '60s growing up (or trying to - some never did) rebelling against authority, being most unlike their parents, and when the authority died off, THEY became the authority, and liked it. Their upbringing coincided with an expansion in the economy (which, if you look at it - as economists tend to do, from the statistics - makes perfect sense in that they WERE their own market) which drove their own success. Simply being born, eating and shi**ing, being educated, being entertained, being led by the nose through school and into the job market - simply existing caused markets to expand as long as they were around, because.....PEOPLE (read: consumers) ARE ANY COUNTRY'S GREATEST RESOURCE! Bretton Woods was simply a happy accident that created the tool for this delusion to expand happily throughout the next fifty years.
Never having had to discipline themselves to the authority of a work ethic, an educational stricture, a social tenet or a moral obligation has left the Western world with an undisciplined, narcissistic, selfish, hegemonic anthropology that thinks its shit don't stink.
It now owns the media which feeds its self-delusion for every happy shekel it can extract from them, and deliberately turns its face from reality, which is that 94% of the people in the world make far, far less than they do, have lives averaging 17 years shorter, and have a struggle simply to find food and shelter every day that beggars the imagination.
And, most tragically, this generation is raising its kids in their own image. Deluded. And arrogant.
Luckily, as they have failed to learn from even their own history, their kids will be MOST unlike them. They will live through one of the most horrifying corrections imagined, similar to the loss of population that occurred during the Thirty Years' War. People will fight each other for basic resources, and many of the poorest will simply lose their lives. It will take a generation to live through and absorb this loss, and any of the boomers who live long enough to see it will rue their own selfishness as did the Emperors and Equestrians of Rome the deaths of the Gracchus brothers.
The parallels are astounding. The lesson is not. It will be repeated until it is learned. I regret there are so many ignoramuses around among the Boomers who believe their own publicity and think this is truly "a New Era".
Dobbin might want to take a longer view before he assumes that the Canadian Left is a monolithic entity that has basically similar goals. It isn't and it doesn't.
Just like "true" Christians, only about 10% are well and truly called. The other 80% or so are sheeple without the sense and vision God gave a house plant.
zalm
4 years ago
It was said best...
...by my good friend GWest.
Just as there is NO connection between the John Diefenbaker Progressive Conservatives [who actually saw the need for fundamental tax reform, gave the vote to First Nations Citizens for the first time and created the Bill of Rights] and the current 'Conservative' party of Pee Wee Rambo and his caucus of ‘pigmies’.
And that, as Dobbin points out, is where the progressive voices in Canada have a lot of work to do.
Somehow, in the absence of an independent and thinking media, that message has to be taken to the people.
If you want change in this country – real change – it is not going to come from right wing liberals and conservative.
We elected the 'status quo' and all the "tax relief" in the world isn't going to ease our pain one bit. In fact, in many cases, it's going to make it worse.
(Yes, yes, we know already, R'man and Luke Skywalker, you think paying fewer taxes is better for you. Do shut up already, will you? It was boring two years ago, and equally untrue.)
zalm
4 years ago
And as for
SirJohnA and his alter ego Wilfred Laurier who magically says everything that Sir John says....
....your repartee hasn't improved in the slightest in your absence(s). GO piss on Conrad Black's head - he's down right now.
zalm
4 years ago
On taxes
Lower taxes are a race to the bottom. Ever wonder why our roads are in terrible shape? Why hospitals have longer waiting lists despite Gordo telling us how much he's spending on health care? Why pollution is up and productivity is down and violence and inequality are up?
Think it could have anything to do with fewer services?
Canada already has a lower average tax rate than the US. So who are we racing now? I know, let's race Sweden! Them 60-year-old marathon skiers live longer because they pay Fewer Taxes!
Ignoramus.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_com_of_tax_per_inc_tax-taxation-components-personal-income-tax
zalm
4 years ago
Here's an interesting contrast...
People are clearly thinking about the reality our society lives in, and who their fellow travellers really are. Look at Bobby Peru's comment 13 hours up. Then look at Seth's 11 hours up.
Both say essentially the same thing, and both are right in their own way. But Seth's has genius and magic in it. A useful point of view, with a plan for action that's a wakeup call to any ordinary Canadian who's considering the possibility that maybe the world they've been sold by Bretton Woods isn't the real world that's out there.
And Bobby Peru's? If his malformed opinion were toilet paper, I'd rather use my base hand for fear of the caustic rash his opinion would leave behind if I were to scrape my ass with it. Zero value. A waste of bits.
politico
4 years ago
The fix is simple
1)The opposition parties agree on an agenda
a)BoC reform and economic recovery
b)Pro Rep
c)Out of Afghanistan
2)Defeat Harpers Minority after Throne speech and budget do not address these issues.
3)GG offers opposition government
4)Opposition parties accept based on agreed upon agenda stated above
5)Opposition coalition implements agenda
6)Once completed opposition goes to GG for election
or
7)Opposition agrees on new three point agenda and you repeat above
simple really.....
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
Frank...
I disagree...
http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/sports/story.html?id=93eb6804-aeab-4c45-bc1c-cdf5a8598df6
I dunno. BC, Alberta, and NB still have the highest personal (basic) tax exemption in Canada.
Ergo, based upon that social public policy perspective and your logic, shouldn't all BC NDPer's now vote Liberal? ;)
zalm
4 years ago
Ooops!
Wrong link to taxation statistics above.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_hig_mar_tax_rat_ind_rat-highest-marginal-tax-rate-individual
David Lewis
4 years ago
its a landslide minority government!
Harper is ruling with 37.6% of the vote. Whoopee.
I'm not quite getting your argument. You want the horrible reactionary Liberals to unite with the slick nonvisionary NDP and the poor judgement Greens, create something you'd like, and defeat Harper?
The Liberals eliminated the deficit. According to you, eliminating the deficit wasn't even necessary, and going further, it was some kind of plot against democracy.
Why would the NDP unite with them?
Ask Elizabeth May how she feels about Layton and the NDP. In her mind he brought down Martin in favour of Harper which brought down Dion as Environment Minister, shredded Canada's signature on Kyoto and has Canada on the way to being an international pariah as Harper may be the last leader of a developed country to believe in the voodoo of global warming denial.
If we had PR, after all these factions were elected, negotiations would begin on what the coalition government would be. Under FPTP, the pressure to negotiate is before the election, only in the politics we've evolved, the negotiation doesn't take place. FPTP is designed to produce two big tent parties and we've fooled ourselves that splitting into factions was a better way to go.
I agree with an analysis I heard first from Chantal Hebert: PR isn't going to be some magic system except for the Greens, as it will have different warts than the one we have now. But those who want change should consider that Canada isn't going to adopt PR until a province does it, and three provinces have defeated referendums on PR. In BC it was even the chief beneficiaries, the Greens who allowed their leaders to call out to all to defeat STV, as if they couldn't understand that it was PR. The time for PR in BC may have passed, although I do agree it seems like this Canadian result may have increased the support for PR nationally. We'll see soon enough: STV is on the ballot next year here.
zalm
4 years ago
Ooops!
Wrong link to taxation statistics above. Too many windows open.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_hig_mar_tax_rat_ind_rat-highest-marginal-tax-rate-individual
zalm
4 years ago
Sorry...
...about the double post. STILL too many windows open.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
zalm
That was a great link, Zalm!
Canada = 79th on the tax roles, way below Europe and the USA - just about the middle of where the developing countries are. That is incredibly low when one considers we want a world-class education, health-care and roads that work. Since Mulroney got into power, infrastructure has been continuing to fall apart. By not investing in infrastructure, we have been burdening our children's future while Canadian corporate taxes = 10%. Baby-boomers have been the most selfish of Canadians. No wonder the Gen-Xers and Ys have emerged.
The tax component I would have liked to have seen in the charts was a more detailed break-down of higher-income people for their personal tax. They only broke it down as being the top tirty percent. Further, since the focus is on taxes, the site shows the increases in earnings that have have far out-paced the middle and the poor (whose earnings have stagnated and gone down in many cases). Once a person has an income that makes him or her wealthy, his or her ability to stay wealthy and gain more wealth grows exponentially.
alda
4 years ago
Zalm's spot on
Zalm,
Your comments are brilliant on this issue - in particular, your take on how things have come to pass and will continue in the future. I do have a quibble with this, however: "Dobbin might want to take a longer view before he assumes that the Canadian Left is a monolithic entity that has basically similar goals. It isn't and it doesn't."
I'm sure Dobbin knows the parties aren't of one mind - but that in order to advance their own agendi, a few basic tenets will have to be agreed upon, rep by pop being one of them. What other tactics would you propose should be used to vanquish the behemoth?
to Wilfred: I'm no Green and I think May's decision to run against Mackay was foolhardy, other than to garner attention for herself, as well. Still, that doesn't diminish her ability to call a spade a spade on occasion, as our other politicians most often refuse to do.
realisticman
4 years ago
Tax Rates!
Taxes are extremely complicated, zalm and we do have varying rates in Canada, that are not reflected by simply posting a link that shows one rate. Each province has a different personal tax rate. Although, looking at the study you cite one can see more details in the Canada study, by clicking on the country data:
Canada:
Contribution by poorest 30% 6.2%
Contribution by richest 30% 60.4%
What an interesting difference, eh 'zalm', and 'SharingIsGood'? No wonder you pointed this out! The wealthy are paying ten times the taxes that the poor pay! What should we do?
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ca-canada/tax-taxation
Wikipedia takes into account the provincial taxes too and properly states a rate that varies: 29.5-35.5%
By the way, 'zalm', I agree with you about the roads needing to be improved. I guess we both hope that the Gateway project is started as soon as possible. I feel so sorry for all those people living in New Westminster having to suffer the pollution from that continuous line of heavy trucks, belching out all those fumes. Same too for north Surrey, hundreds of vehicles crawling up 152nd and west along the Trans Can everyday as they squeeze on to the Port Mann Bridge. Double that bridge now! I agree with you on that 'zalm'.
bob the cat
4 years ago
tax cuts
by slowly cutting taxes ..and then showing the numbers which justify cutting services to people aren`t you essentially kind of creating the jungle where the strong will survive..and the infirm the poor the aged and the hard to house
will fall away.
Thats a clever way of doing it. A clean strong society of the smart the hardworking and the clever.
Hasn`t it been done before?....hmmmm
ubermenschen was it?
realisticman
4 years ago
Say, bob the cat...
...what do think Carole James is thinking when she constantly only seems to want the CO2 tax cut!?
bob the cat
4 years ago
ahem
realisticman I really have no idea what Carole James might be thinking.
egmont rapids
4 years ago
Rman
Campbell will be pleading for a coalition from the Greens/PC party/ independent parties. Campbell will be pleading for votes, just like Dion did and it will be just as sucessful.
Especially when Campbell gets wiped in the october 29th bi-election.
Campbell has one chance to win the May election.
Buy Diebold electronic voting machines and rig the election.
People are looking forward to voting for anyone BUT CAMPBELL!
realisticman
4 years ago
egmont rapids
I wasn't aware that there's a provincial PC Party. A coalition you say. Tell more.
doggone
4 years ago
Crap shoot
I'm using channeling and automatic writing:
The "Storm" ain't over yet.
ALL "political" parties should now be working together!
I do not care whether BC is run by Neocons or lefties.
I would appreciate folks who have been elected to govern to do more or less just that: govern.
Not seeing very much out there that gives me hope and it does not seem from comments here and other sites that internet users have any clue what is approaching.
Been nice to know you guys and girls!
See ya in the next incarnation.
Doggone over and out
zalm
4 years ago
R'man
Taxes are complicated indeed - so why does the right persist in reducing the issue to one of imbecile simplicity - less is better, and flat tax is best of all? You think that perhaps the rich should pay the same percentage of income as the poor? Or the same dollar amount? Please justify.
Let's put it another way. Using quintiles (20%), let's compare the tax paid by the top quintile (40% of total contribution) with the bottom quintile (4% of total contribution. The top quintile earned more than $65,000 a year in 2006, the bottom less than $19,000.
If we each made them pay the same tax rate (32.5%), the top quintile would pay not less than $21,000 a year in tax, while the bottom quintile, would pay...lessee....$21,000 in tax, far more than their total earnings!
Great idea, wizard.
Canada's GINI has been rising from 29 in 1992 to 32 in 2000 indicating that income distribution is getting more unequal, so I guess that difference you're complaining about should be narrowing, eh?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gin_ind-economy-gini-index
You forgot city and state taxes which are not accounted for in Wikipedia statistics.
You could have also pointed out that Canada's top rate is earned at less than 100,000 (top 9% of all earners) whereas the US top tax rate is earned at more than $300,000 (top 1.5% of all earners). But it wouldn't get you anywhere, because the US taxpayers at $100,000 STILL pay the same as comparable Canadians, and there are still two more top tax rates above that, which function as excess earnings taxes. Not that it helps the US GINI much.
Any time you'd lke to have more fun with statistics, let me know. The world isn't fair. Most people sympathize. But not you. Shame on you.
zalm
4 years ago
Road tolls - $10 each way
"By the way, 'zalm', I agree with you about the roads needing to be improved. I guess we both hope that the Gateway project is started as soon as possible."
Wrong.
I was speaking of existing roads - the potholes on city streets are horrendous, and my bike falls into them like you wouldn't believe. ;>) Of course, since the province downloaded so much additional maintenance of the major road network onto cities, that's not surprising.
The city is also behind on sewer separation, the GVRD behind on bus replacement and water line replacement, and in general, successive levels of government have screwed up the priorities for maintenance and replacement for election purposes in favour of rich contracts to private security firms to kick the homeless out of doorways and increase the length of hospital stays. Cutting taxes only makes it worse, not that the NPA has cut taxes. Ever.
But if you're so het-up on the Gateway, R'man, why did you let Gordo build that superhighway to nowhere - the Sea-to-Ski? To the soon-to-be-bankrupt ghost town called Whistler? There's no commuters living out that way and no industry. And in another fifteen-twenty years when the boomers start dying off, there won't be many skiers either. That's $700 million into the toilet.
Not too bright, your lot.
zalm
4 years ago
Alda
"I'm sure Dobbin knows the parties aren't of one mind - but that in order to advance their own agendi, a few basic tenets will have to be agreed upon, rep by pop being one of them. What other tactics would you propose should be used to vanquish the behemoth?"
Uh, that's not quite what I said. I said the behemoth is us. We've gotten self-satisfied and smug and a majority of us ought to be voting Con based on our primary motivation in life, which is to make as much money as possible to buy more DVDS and pickup trucks and skidoos and take more vacations. Harpo and the Cretin and GW and Clinton and the Fraser Institution for the Financially Insane and Greenspan and Berkanke and Gordo and...and...Christ, for all I know maybe even he's been enrolled into preaching to us that this is the way to true happiness.
But each of us has a nagging pin-prick in the vacant lot formerly occupied by our conscience before it was torn down to make way for the new condos of consumption. Stronger in some than in others. But certainly not a majority.
That means, as long as consumption is the elephant in the room that nobody notices, the agendi are worthless. And the level of thinking, the level of discourse that I hear from all the major leaders and most of their minions tells me that nothing's going to change very soon.
My list?
No taxes on income, higher taxes on production and consumption. Hig taxes on transfer of wealth to other generations. Very high taxes on pollution and waste. Exceedingly high taxes on consumption of luxury goods defined as those goods of less than 1% market share and exceeding the ratio of highest-paid to lowest-paid average salaries. Ultra-high taxes on stale capital. Some form of prop-rep. Foreign aid tied to GDP and made available solely as letters of credit for goods and services to NGOs working in the country being aided, and only those with local partners. Corporate reform leading to the abolition of the corporate structure and restoration of the proprietorship/partnership model of business underpinned by risk management overseen by insurers. Mandatory education til Grade 12 equivalent - no dropping out. Mandatory year of travel in another continent before entering university or technical school. Mandatory voting. More libraries and greater scope for internet commons. Shall I go on?
I think we're not really talking about the same thing at all. Nobody's talking about most of these things. Some would conclude I'm crazy. But I ask you, who's crazy? Me, who's trying to do and think something different, or those others who are doing the same thing over and over and over again, faster and faster, trying to achieve happiness?
ME2
4 years ago
Will we see "priming the pump?
Well, boys and girls, I'm old enough to have known many people who lived through the Dirty Thirties, including a few who took to "riding the rails".
Those who had jobs fared well, though often at reduced levels of consumption, while many of the unemployed lost savings, homes, farms, etc, and were forced onto various forms of the dole, such as work camps.
Since it was so obvious that the hard times were the result of the excesses of the rich, Marxism / Socialism became popular, along with the successful drives for Unions. Riots posed an ever-present danger for civic authorities. Even so, few starved.
Fortunately for the power elites, WW2 pumped money into the system, and following the War, they were able to abort sympathies for Marxism with the police-state anti-Communist methodology of McCarthyism, which they've since subtly maintained with a toady press.
I write this merely to point out that even if the current meltdown is worse than '39, now we have the "Social Safety Net" in place, and so there won't be bodies rotting in the streets, as some fear.
No matter how much money is stolen by rescuing the Wall Street / Bay Street financiers, they are still going to have to keep us non-investors afloat too, whether we are employed or not.
If you are a financier, it doesn't matter how many airlines, railroads, factories and retail outlets you own, if consumers are not buying your product, you are paying out money, gaining debt, not profit.
This is why Bush (and Harper) have now guaranteed the subprime loans, for of what value are hundreds of thousands of overpriced, unoccupied homes, when there's no money to buy them?
The big boys have boxed themselves in, folks. If they continue their failed experiment with Friedmanist economics, things will only get worse, and people will start looking seriously at Socialism. To avoid this, they will have to devise Keynsian, priming-the-pump Socialist tactics, or go down with the rest of us, and that ain't gonna happen.
VERY interesting times ahead.
realisticman
4 years ago
zalm
I do agree with you on these:
sewer separation... water line replacement... Very high taxes on pollution ... Foreign aid tied to GDP and made available solely as letters of credit for goods and services to NGOs working in the country being aided, and only those with local partners.... Mandatory education 'til Grade 12 equivalent - no dropping out. Mandatory year of travel in another continent before entering university or technical school. Mandatory voting. More libraries ...
As for the Sea-to-Ski; "December 1, 1998
The Canadian Olympic Association announced Tuesday that Vancouver will represent Canada at the bidding for the 2010 Winter Olympics.
The B.C. bid was highly favoured because Whistler's superb ski mountain. There is still much a lot of work left to do, says B.C. Premier Glen Clark, including improving the road between Vancouver and Whistler."
This road improvement was an inherited obligation, and the NDP is not, as you say, 'my lot'.
I expect we will see many infrastructure projects started soon.
realisticman
4 years ago
zalm
I see from the GINI stats that France, Belgium and Spain, for example, have higher taxes than Canada but also rank worse than Canada on the inequality scale. Any thoughts as to why?
zalm
4 years ago
Gordo "John" Turner?
"This road improvement was an inherited obligation, and the NDP is not, as you say, 'my lot'."
Ah. The John Turner excuse for failing to correct a tragedy in the making, eh?
Let me play Mulroo to your Turner:" You sir had an option." And Gordo had plenty before he shut down the passenger train service.
zalm
4 years ago
European GINIs
GINI also measures wealth, and a sizable number of European people who are otherwise gainfully employed and modestly well-paid have no wealth tied up in their homes because so many don't own them. This skews the GINI toward inequality. However, Europeans (and I would add Germany, Netherlands, Portugal and Italy to your list too) have a larger basket of price supports for goods and necessities such as food and shelter (rent controls are available in pretty much every country of the EU) so that the poverty index isn't as great in Western European countries as it is in North America.
As well, GINI does not measure the complex relationship of measures of taxation other than personal income to wealth. Corporate taxes skew the overall wealth of a country - those with lower corporate taxes tend to have higher GINIs, but those can be offset (depending on government fiscal policy) by the higher amount of profits patriated from high-tax jurisdictions to these low-tax ones by multinationals. Thus Spain, Belgium and Netherlands patriate relatively larger numbers of profits home to their relatively lower-tax jurisdictions, where they help support the transfer of income (I almost said 'wealth', which isn't true) to the poor through price supports and other mechanisms. Germany's the same but has a large bloc of "equality" transferred from the absorption of the East that they are still working out from under. Difficult to compare.
And the US of course has this advantage in spades, but counters this tendency toward fairness with the added burden of a hugely massive military-industrial complex that soaks up more than 11% of the GNP as compared to less than 4% of the countries mentioned. This benefits fewer people than the European model and contributes in a big way toward GINI inequality, Senate Armed Services Committee appropriations to poor pork-barrel communities in the South notwithstanding.
There are also said to be difficulties comparing GINIs of large countries with small ones, but it's unclear to me exactly how this would affect the ratio.
But enough about me. What do YOU think?
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
zalm...
I've gotta disagree with ya.
The "Squamish Highway" or S2S was constructed in 1958 to Squamish in an era when the area population was marginal compared to today.
The highway is sub-standard in terms of today's design standards (in terms of safety, reliability, capacity).
Additionally, too much "traffic ponding" whereby one can never reach the posted 80 km/hr speed limit. Usually caravans moving along at 50/60 km/hr.
Furthermore, when highway capacity reaches 10,000 AADT, traffic engineers begin to look at twinning.
Today, the AADT from HB to Squamish is 13,700.
Ya might not be aware, but $hundreds of millions were spent along the corridor during the '80's and '90's by governments of various political stripes. (4-lane bridge replacements for the wooden trestle bridges, concrete debris torrent channels, etc, etc.)
As for commuters and population growth, look again. Lions Bay, Furry Creek, Squamish, etc. have a large amount of residential development occurring and are becoming part of the Metro Vancouver 'burbs/commuter shed. Just ask Rafe Mair.
That aside, a 100 km/hr four-lane design standard (freeway standard) along the corridor would cost in excess of $2 billion (bridges, viaducts, tunnels, interchanges, etc. based upon engineering studies undertaken circa 2000 on the BC MoT website).
The government unfortunately cheaped out and only went for a modest ~$640 million capital project (as opposed to ~$2 billion) with much lower design standards (80 km/hr design standard, only partial 4-laning, narrower lane, median, shoulder width, etc.)
Whether Socred, NDP, or Liberal the highway improvements still would have been built.
Certainly not a super highway in my books and I'm a fan of 'em. :)
RickW
4 years ago
Speaking of Brad Walls..........
.....he is about to trash northern Saskatchewan.
zalm
4 years ago
Luke
Thanks for the bumph from the SNC Lavalin website. If you'd looked at the BC MoT statistics (which requires downloading a lot of xls and pdf files) you'd see that the summer AAWET (average annual weekend trips) is 8500, and the AADT is only 13700 for winter AAWET. In other words, skiers add up to 5000 car trips a day to that highway for six months a year. Good reason to spend $600 million, eh?
One proposal I heard about was to build a station and parkade at Nelson creek and a couple of sidings north of Squamish, and run Budd car two-fers every fifteen minutes from 2 pm to 8pm (and every half hour after that til midnight) for the hour and a quarter trip to Whistler, with stops at Gondola village, Whistler village, and north Whistler. Total cost including a dozen extra Budd cars? $80 million. Acceptance by tourists? 100%, based on not having to drive that goddamned highway or take a private aircraft to get there.
No chance of that now that Gordo's given away the track, the route and the trains.
zalm
4 years ago
And R'man
I'm curious. What have you got against abolishing the market-distorting corporate structure?
realisticman
4 years ago
zalm...
I presume you're talking about this:
"Corporate reform leading to the abolition of the corporate structure and restoration of the proprietorship/partnership model of business underpinned by risk management overseen by insurers."
I've never really studied it. At a glance I guess LLCs, INCs, SAs, GMBHs, Ltds, & Cos, Associates, etc., all have certain merits depending on circumstances, regulations and investors obligations and protections. If you're familiar with the pros & cons of business law and structures, please advise.
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
zalm...
Just reviewed the figures again and the AADT between Horseshoe Bay and Squamish is 13,700 while the AADT is 7,700 north of Squamish toward Whistler.
In any event, the cost of construction on the relevant 80 km is $8 million /km along very difficult terrain.
OTOH look at the Kicking Horse Canyon section of Hwy 1, which is ~ 25 km long with a $1 billion pricetag, equating a $40 million/km construction cost. It only has 10,000 SADT.
A much lower traffic count but 5 times the construction cost on a per km basis.
Should we scrap that project as well?
I must say, highway construction is one thing that the NDP also got right. From the Inland Island Hwy, to the new interchanges set-up at the Hwy 91/91A split, to the twinning of Hwy 1 east of Kamloops, to the bridge/highway twinning on Prince George's north side, to the...
ME2
4 years ago
Luke
I'm no expert, but my guess is that since the Kicking Horse Pass is a key interprovincial highway which carries a much larger volume/value of commercial traffic than the Whistler hwy, those two reasons justify the difference in cost per Km.
alda
4 years ago
to Zalm
I have no issue with society's greed being the true behemoth, whatsoever. That's a given.
But it's a chicken and the egg kind of problem: if the govt. in power refuses to enact common sense education and legislation to pull Canadians away from their consumeristic trance, what chance do the sheeple have of seeing the sense in what you're saying? Zip all.
In that case, it seems that all we can do is to vote, en masse, for the best-of-the-rotten dishes offered on political parties' three-day-old fish smorgasbords (or try to get the parties we believe in to change their policies - but yeah, good luck with that one).
My question, then, is this: how do we get the deluded public to do even that paltry little, seemingly-impossible, act?
Luke Skywalker
4 years ago
ME2
The 25 km Kicking Horse Canyon segment on Hwy 1, in far eastern BC, traverses similar mountainous terrain as the Horseshoe Bay to Squamish section of the S2S.
The reason the Kicking Horse Canyon has a ~$1 billion price tag (for ~25 km) is that the upgrades are designed for a "100 km/hr" standard.
These design standards involve highway geometry in terms of both vertical and horizontal curves.
In such difficult terrain, when a highway has a 100 km/hr design standard the costs go up quasi-exponentially for each "10 km/hr" increase in design standards. That's why the Kicking Horse Canyon will likely have a twin bore, 3 km tunnel in Phase 3.
OTOH, the S2S has a "80 km/hr design standard" and the portion between Squamish and Whistler will only have 2 - 3 lanes albeit with upgraded design standards.
And only a relatively small portion between Horseshoe Bay and Squamish will be divided 4-lane (not freeway standard) and certainly not a super hwy.
You are quite correct though that Hwy 1 has a high level of commercial traffic. That said, the traffic counts are higher between HB and Squamish and that corridor right through to Lillooet and Hwy 97 represents only 3 major corridors (the other: Hwy 1 and Hwy 99S) exiting Metro Vancouver in the event of an emergency or other catastrophic event.
realisticman
4 years ago
Balance
alda...
"But it's a chicken and the egg kind of problem: if the govt. in power refuses to enact common sense education and legislation to pull Canadians away from their consumeristic trance,..."
Governments in Canada don't need to encourage or discourage, the world as a whole will take care of it. Consumer spending will almost certainly decline worldwide. Many will see this as a good thing but the effect will be a negative one for millions everywhere.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/10/24/the-worlds-us-consumer-problem/
http://www.greenfaucet.com/technical-analysis/markets-are-on-the-verge-of-a-waterfall-like-collapse/18976
G West
4 years ago
negative effects
Do you really care to discuss where this casino economy has gotten us?
I think not.
The creators of this madness should be the ones to feel the negative effects.
I very much liked the way the tumbrels rolled and Alan Greenspan was scorned in the streets this past week; sadly his mentor Milton Freidman left the stage before the final curtain.
The creators of this madness have been lying for a generation - don't expect them to stop any time soon,
realisticman
4 years ago
negative comments
The knee-jerk reaction to any tragedy is often one of seeking revenge.
GWest:
"The creators of this madness should be the ones to feel the negative effects.".
This is the same as calling for a lynching. It serves a quick satisfaction but it doesn't heal any wounds.
The fact of the matter is that millions will feel any slowdown and many already are. The only hope is for consumer spending to go back up.
GUANGZHOU, Oct. 20 (Xinhua) -- Labor authorities in south China's manufacturing base of Guangdong Province are considering setting up a fund to help workers laid off in factory closures caused by the rippling global financial crisis.
More than 1,000 workers at a Hong Kong-invested electrical appliance plant in Shenzhen City took to the streets on Sunday to demand the government intervene to secure their unpaid wages.
The Bailingda Industrial (Shenzhen) Co. Ltd. officially closed its production line on Monday, leaving 1,500 staff out of work.
It was the second Hong Kong-listed firm in Guangdong to go bust in a month, after the closure of Smart Union Group (Holdings) Limited last Friday, which laid off 7,000 workers in Dongguan City. Both were export-oriented manufacturers.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-10/20/content_10225043.htm
Recent layoffs add to the anxiety of corporate India
Malvika Chandan
Oct 22, 2008
The recent layoffs in the IT, BPO, banking and airlines industry has presented a new challenge for corporate India. The layoff and subsequent reinstatement of the 1900 Jet Airways employees, as well as announcements by Kingfisher Airlines indicating additional layoffs have only aggravated the anxiety. All this, while the tremors of the investment banking meltdown, are yet to be felt by the students at Indian Institute of Management (IIM) Ahmedabad, Bangalore and Calcutta who are unsure of their job offers with Lehman Brothers or other investment banks which have made pre placement offers.
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Recent-layoffs-add-to-the-anxiety-of-corporate-India/376322/
Financial Meltdown Worsens Food Crisis
As Global Prices Soar, More People Go Hungry
By Ariana Eunjung Cha and Stephanie McCrummen
Washington Post-October 26, 2008
SHANGHAI As shock waves from the credit crisis began to spread around the world last month, China scrambled to protect itself. Among the most extreme measures it took was to impose new export taxes to keep critical supplies such as grains and fertilizer from leaving the country.
Oxfam, the Britain-based aid group, estimates that economic chaos this year has pulled the incomes of an additional 119 million people below the poverty line.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/25/AR2008102502293.html?hpid=topnews
G West
4 years ago
Baloney
The foods crisis and shortages have been on the hob for roughly seven years - as anyone who knows the aid field is aware.
Of course poor people will starve and starving people will die and those with a head to think with know where to place the blame.
If the resources which have been utterly wasted on the financial roulette wheel which has been international commerce for the past 2 - 3 decades had actually gone into something real and productive and not the virtual pockets of a clique of greedy idiots in a few dozen countries sprinkled around the world there would have been some real growth and real progess in that period.
Instead we have the wreckage that lies around us now - exactly and precisely what I and many others have been saying and writing here for years and people like you, realisticman, have scoffed and chided us by calling us silly names.
I'm not going to resort to the same kind of childishness but believe me, it's a struggle.
I only wish it had been the self-styled masters of the universe I was serving the soup to this morning....
That’s what happens when you believe in a ponzi scheme like globalization and the god almighty market.
lynn
4 years ago
Club Gitmo for the Nouveau Rich and Rotten Scoundrels
It's amazing, isn't it, when it becomes very clear who is at fault...who has miserably failed....and who exactly should be held accountable......that suddenly comes the plea from the greedy culprits for patience and understanding, as they try to distance themselves from what is unfolding...as if it had absolutely nothing to do with them...as if they should somehow be "simply excused" for the myriad jobs and lives that will be lost...for the cruel chaos they have set upon the world. Somehow this perverse few and their perverse way of thinking "believe" that they are above and beyond punishment for their crimes.
No, for those who have relentlessly defended and profited from global corporatism and destroyed so many lives in the process, for the Pandora's Box you have recklessly.... and remorselessly opened on us all: Bring on The World Court.
Then off with you... to a hush-hush off-shore resort.
No, not The Grand Caymans.
No, this time one of your most sly and twisted creations karmically awaits your knock...
Now opening its "well-oiled" and "deserved" doors just for you: Guantanamo Bay.
realisticman
4 years ago
Luncheon
Revenge is a self-destructive emotion, West. The best thing we can do is get out there and buy something and get the economy rolling again. Maybe a holiday shopping trip to New York would be a good start. Rather than help out the poorest by getting them back to work Lynn wants to have a globalized court-fest in The Hague. Who's coming? Will the Iceland bankers that didn't, or were unable, to do their due diligence, be there. Will the CEOs of the banks be there or only the CFOs. Will the Chairmen have to go too, or just the derivatives traders and the bond buyers and sellers. This would take many years of fiddling and might include some legal fees. I hope you reminded the lunch group that the best way to avoid poverty is to have a job! According to the OECD study two-thirds of no-job households are poor. But only 4% of two-income households are poor. Aren't we lucky to live in Canada?
G West
4 years ago
No Revenge - just a little justice....
I'm not interested in revenge – I am interested in you and your clique, that tiny excrescence of a crust riding on the top of the jar that has to be cracked to get down to the good people who work for a living going away for awhile as they mumble about how happy they are they live in the west and not in the countries you fly to to play your little tourist games.
I'm interested in that little statement by Allan Greenspan about how 'distressed' he is that things turned out so badly. And, I'm interested, as I think Lynn is, in a little
JUSTICE - meted out for once by the victims to the perpetrators of this organized crime that the masters of the universe called an economic 'system'. Will that happen at the Hague – if so I’m all for it.
I don't care where they hold the trial but I certainly won't be upset to see Bernanke and Paulsen and Bush and Brown and Blair and Greenspan and the cursed ghost of Milton Freidman and all the rest of the neo liberal hangers on in the dock getting exactly what they earned through their careful 'husbanding' of the resources and the sweat of others.
They are all liars and cheats, tin-pot gamblers and losers - what happens to them - even if they end up in the crowbar hotel won't amount to half of what they deserve.
They should spend the next 30 years dressed in their skivvies breaking worn-out hulks with their bare hands along the coast of Bangladesh.
But revenge, not me man, I'm a justice person - I'd even chip in a nickel or so of their rapidly devaluing currency to get 'em a lawyer.
You too, still looking for that 20 bucks?..it's worth considerably less now then when I made the offer.
lynn
4 years ago
The world according to....
Well said, G West.
Once again, it's amazing in its predictability when a call for simply justice in the World Court is defined as revenge...according, that is, to the constantly:
new and revised....
unaccountable,
irresponsible,
ever greedy....
always cowardly,
and ever hypocritical
terminology of:
The Corporate Dictionary for Escape Artists and Liars
realisticman
4 years ago
Call in the procecutors
Fine but first we should be trying to help those that are suffering and going hungry. Working families in Asia are loosing their livelihoods, take care of them first. Bring in the lawyers later, if you think you can pinpoint those culpable and make a case.
G West
4 years ago
Sorry
The mark of an intelligent person and a humane society is the ability to do more than one thing at a time.
I think we can manage to save the world just fine - but only if we get the hands of the filthy rascals who wrecked the place off the tiller and put them away where they can't mess up the works again - Just take the top 10% of income earners in every western culture, cut up their Visa Cards and put them on oatmeal for a decade - then we'll redistribute their illgotten gains to the starving masses.
And we'll put them to work sorting recyclables in the interim - so they won't be a burden on society. I've long thought they are not capable of real productive work anyway...but, if we can change their rich diet for a more natural one we may be able to retrain them.
There's not going to be a need for paper shufflers and money kiters for a good long time.
That'll be a start - but some people are going to have to surrender their frequent flier points for the cause....
I am so impressed that you care for working families realisticman - maybe I'll send your discounted $20 to them.
Deal?
Building a case - already been done....
realisticman
4 years ago
I love when a plan...
"I think we can manage to save the world just fine"
OK, please define "we".
"the top 10% of income earners in every western culture"
Does this include Argentina, Abu Dhabi or anywhere in Asia? How about the EU?
"put them on oatmeal for a decade"
Is there any danger of causing a shortage or a run up in the price of oats?
I see that many agree on doing something.
"EUROPEAN AND Asian leaders representing nearly half the world's population concluded a two-day summit in the Chinese capital at the weekend with a call for the international community to overcome the financial crisis through enhanced co-operation... Forty-five countries and organisations were represented at the Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) held in Beijing, ... Taoiseach Brian Cowen, who is leading a trade mission to China, was the first speaker at the Saturday morning session of the ASEM and highlighted the parallel "silent crisis" of hunger in the developing world. He told the summit his Government had commissioned a report from a hunger task force, whose members included Bono and leading economist Prof Jeffrey Sachs."
Bono might be busy for a little while though, he's been taking some R&R in preparation for the next challenge.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1080636/What-St-Bonos-wife-say-partying-teenage-girls.html.
G West
4 years ago
I'll just post a bit from Roger Cohen
Shoot the Horses?
By ROGER COHEN
I was talking to a banker friend, and he told me the “unraveling” could go on for ages. I thought he meant the unwinding of all the leverage that had inflated everything from the price of stocks to the price of homes.
But, just to be sure, I asked him: “Unraveling of what?”
He paused, before saying, “Almost our way of life.”
A friend of his, he went on, has a horse farm north of New York City. “I told him, for heaven’s sake, you have to get rid of your horses. Shoot them if necessary.”
That got me thinking. Are we going to be living on horse meat before we get to the bottom of this?
It’s now clear that our credit system the world over was rotten all the way through, a giant house of cards maintained by the ingenious connivance of banks, rating agencies and insurance companies in a monumental heist. The only buyers anyone trusts any more are governments.
No wonder Alan Greenspan says he’s in a state of “shocked disbelief.” He’s not the only one.
But as the state intervenes, in what Ed Yardeni, an investment analyst, called “a giant global game of Whac-A-Mole,” the moles keep popping out of new black holes in our financial system.
“We’ve tried rubber mallets, now we’re using bazookas, but we’re flying blind,” Yardeni told me.
... ....
You can look the rest up for yourself R/man
You're not funny and this isn't fun
zalm
4 years ago
R'man
"The best thing we can do is get out there and buy something and get the economy rolling again."
Are you for real? Haven't you been paying the slightest bit of attention in the past few months? This is what got the whole problem going in the first place - that we could do exactly as you say without fear of the consequences.
Well, the consequences came back and bit us on the ass.
But the big boys didn't learn anything. Chase is using its money not to buy up bad debts or lend to consumers, but to buy up other banks! Sigh. The game continues and those stupid enough to be sucked into round two deserve what they get.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/25/business/25nocera.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=so%20when%20will%20the%20banks%20lend%20again&st=cse&oref=slogin
What was it GW Bush tried so very hard to say a few years ago? "Fool me once, shame on....me. Fool me twice.... You know we won't be fooled again."
realisticman
4 years ago
zalm...
Buy something! Sure, it sounds crazy but in fact that is what's needed. Not on credit but with cash. You've probably noticed that perhaps the biggest current problem is confidence between banks and therefore credit is not flowing and slowing everything. People around the world have been burned and everyone's holding on to their wallet.
New controls will be instigated but the essential quotient is high-quality 'flow'.
G West
4 years ago
As always
The crap flows downhill....
realisticman
4 years ago
Don't be silly
Remember 1932?
"By March 4, nearly all banks in the country were closed by their governors, and Roosevelt kept them all closed until he could pass new legislation. On March 9, Roosevelt sent to Congress the Emergency Banking Act, drafted in large part by Hoover's Administration; the act was passed and signed into law the same day. It provided for a system of reopening sound banks under Treasury supervision, with federal loans available if needed. Three-quarters of the banks in the Federal Reserve System reopened within the next three days. Billions of dollars in "hoarded" currency and gold flowed back into them within a month, thus stabilizing the banking system. "
The key word is flow. Money is not flowing now and whether you like it or not the present leaders of the world are doing just what Roosevelt did, re-establishing liquidity. Infrastructure projects will be undertaken by governments to get people working, earning money and spending money, to maintain and re-start the flow of money.
Go with the flow man.
G West
4 years ago
I take it you're prepared to ignore
I take it you're prepared to ignore the fact that the banks currently getting the taxpayers' pennies are NOT using it to do much other than sit on...and contemplate using it to buy other banks.
You might also care to check your history, the horrendous effects of the Depression continued to be felt all across North America until the heated up economy of war production finally turned things around.
That was when, you'll recall, North America (and Canada in particular) came to the rescue of YOUR natal land.
You might care to refresh your memory by reading Conrad Black's latest encomium to Franklin Roosevelt in the Globe and Mail - the one where he, mirabile dictu, refers to the 'loony right'!
NotaColony.ca
4 years ago
Murray you can't be serious
Murray Dobbin on Dion: "But this was the man who supported every piece of legislation that Stephen Harper could muster in his two and a half years as PM."
That's straight out of the NDP's talking points Murray, even if it's literally true.
The Liberals had little money and plenty of chaos during much of that time and bringing down the government would have delivered the Harper majority you claim to fear.
The NDP has been very busy poisoning the well for perceived short term political gain. Congratulations on defeating the largest progressive tax policy in a generation, one that also would have turned the country toward truly dealing with carbon emissions.
Fomenting anti-tax rage is not progressive.
And you should have credited Chomsky for the first part of this column, the bit about "The Crisis of Democracy". Your readers should google Chomsky and "Crisis of Democracy" and see for themselves.
sicntired
4 years ago
Conservative governments
The last one was Mulroney and we still look back with disdain on that period in our history.These governments are mean spirited,fiscally incompetent and divisive.They are always pro big business and give massive tax cuts to the upper 30% at the expense of the rest of us.Like every other conservative government,it will take years to undo the damage and social programs will suffer and many will die for lack of support.We desperately need a better system that will deliver a more representative result at the polls.That's another thing we won't see under a Harper government.
Budd Campbell
4 years ago
NotaColony.ca? Quite colonial, actually
NotaColony.ca
The NDP has been very busy poisoning the well for perceived short term political gain. Congratulations on defeating the largest progressive tax policy in a generation, one that also would have turned the country toward truly dealing with carbon emissions.
Fomenting anti-tax rage is not progressive.
That's straight out of the Liberal talking points Notacolony, even though it's literally false.
You know, that expression "fomenting anti-tax rage" has a kind of neo-Marxist ring to it. Can you tell us how much use the Liberals are making these days of exhausted and frustrated communists who want to be put to work doing something that's relatively easy, but very efficacious and even deemed (by CBC at least) to be newsworthy?
BTW, I really have no idea why your handle is Notacolony, because your attitudes are very traditional, very much a case of deference to authority and a firm rejection of any independent right to act without permission. They're very much colonial era attitudes.