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Political Savvy Meter
Why Harper's smart, McCain's not and James needs to be.
Harper: Hard to lose.
Elections national, provincial and U.S. Let's talk raw politics about all three.
Harper's gambit
There has been a lot of gup said and printed about Stephen Harper going to the polls. We're told that Canadians don't want an election. Why not? Is that walk to the church hall too long a distance for you?
The ones who say we don't want a vote are invariably the political parties who don't expect to win, namely, all three Opposition parties.
There is a political reality here. With a couple of exceptions (Diefenbaker in 1958 and Trudeau in 1968), there never is a good time to call an election in this country. We are invariably divided region by region so that whoever wins will have huge majorities in Ontario and/or Quebec with the rest of the country sucking wind. One of the advantages of minority governments is that the MP votes count for a bit more because the prime minister must at listen to them, even if he does nothing.
The political reality is that if Harper wins a minority government, he's in for two or three years with no party daring to bring him down. Elections exhaust supporters and the party treasury and as long as the supporters remain exhausted, the money stays at home. Harper knows that his opponents will be Dion, Layton and Duceppe, and this suits him fine. In a word, Harper knows that, subject to the vagaries of election campaigns, he will be either prime minister for two years, or three… or four.
He'd be bonkers not to call an election.
On the assumption that political columnists ought to declare their colours, I hereby disclose that I will vote Green. Under the Elections Act, the Greens will get $1.75 per vote cast and that, to me, is a better election return that anything the others promise.
James' chances
A recent poll in B.C. puts Carole James and the NDP ahead of the Autocrat and his Liberal toadies. This has come as a great surprise to many, and the NDP, while hardly cranking out the champagne, have a new buoyancy in their step. Those who have watched polls for an eon or two know that there is a very dangerous pitfall here into which the NDP could easily fall.
These pre-election polls, because they are pre-election, don't tell us whom people will vote for but what pisses them off at the moment, and at this moment it's Gordon Campbell. Carole James knows that when the Autocrat starts dumping hundreds of millions of dollars into key constituencies next year that these numbers could change dramatically.
What James must do is occupy the "no man's land" (all right, dammit, "no person's land") and soon.
Quite to the surprise of the Liberals, the environment is a big issue (and will get much bigger if I have anything to do with it), and the Liberals are in deep doo-doo all around the province. If James thinks she can ride to power assuming that people will vote for her just because they don't like Campbell, she is making a classic error for which there are examples too numerous to recite.
Where does James stand on the following issues: The sweetheart deal with Alcan allowing them to sell power to the detriment of their plant in Kitimat? Fish farms? Gateway (several issues)? The transmission lines in Tsawwassen? And, my main issue, the Liberals' energy plan, which will see our environment trashed, all power profits going to offshore corporations instead of the British Columbia treasury, and BC Hydro assassinated?
In the past, most environmental issues were local and the government could divide and conquer. That's not going to be the case in 2009.
There are, of course, many social issues to beat the Autocrat over the head with but, sadly, the great swath of swing voters doesn't care much about these matters except in the abstract. And to the extent James emotes on such matters, she'll be speaking to the converted who would vote NDP no matter what.
This poll, then, must goad Carole James into action on the one issue that crosses party lines: the environment.
(I again state my interest -- I'm spokesperson for Save Our Rivers Society, which strongly opposes Campbell's energy plan and, in the absence of a sea change in the Liberals' position, will be campaigning against them.)
McCain's crazy choice
Finally, let's look below the line as the presidential campaign eases from first gear to second. John McCain has made a calamitous decision to have Sarah Palin as his vice-presidential running mate. I couldn't care less about her daughter's pregnancy out of wedlock -- so far -- but McCain isn't after my vote.
There are two overriding elements in selecting a presidential running mate. The selection must appeal to a segment of the voters where the leader needs help and must bring electoral votes. Palin may indeed make the right wing happy because she's a woman opposed to abortion, but the right wing was going to vote Republican anyway.
The advantage for McCain is that these hot button issues will be left to Palin.
The trouble is that there are many in the swing vote area who will be appalled at Palin's hardcore opposition to abortion.
On the hard numbers side of U.S. politics, Palin brings the grand total of three electoral votes and can't even say that other western states, Washington, Oregon and California will go Republican because of her.
What about the fact she's a woman?
That will resonate with many but this issue has matured in many ways thanks to Hillary Clinton. It's true that the glass ceiling is still there but the cracks are getting bigger and it's doubtful that women voters, in large enough numbers, will be saying "I'm for McCain because he has a female running mate." While women acutely feel the gender discrimination that exists, they also see that things are improving. Moreover, speaking politically, many male voters who are sexists, open or covert, have votes too.
There is, of course, a far more serious issue not only for America but the rest of the world. What if the 72-year-old McCain is elected and hops the twig whilst in office? Do the American people and indeed the rest of the world want to have Sarah Palin as the commander-in-chief of the United States?
Palin, 44, served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska, city council from 1992 to 1996, then won two terms as mayor from 1996 to 2002. In December 2006, Palin was sworn in as the governor of Alaska.
Hands up all who have ever heard of Wasilla, Alaska. Even Spiro Agnew and Dan Quayle had more experience than that. A key question, which will be raised again and again by the Democrats, will deal with Palin's fitness for the presidency should McCain die in office.
I should tell you that, by and large, I've pulled for the Democratic Party and my prejudices lie there.
There we have it, a three-fer. Harper can't lose, James could win, and McCain made a terrible choice.
Related Tyee stories:
- Autism Parents Seek Clout in Federal Election
Activists target ridings with thin margins. - Mair: I'll Vote NDP in May
BC's stakes are so huge and lasting, change is a must. - John McCain, Plain and Simple
His run for US president proves a crude brand of patriotism still sells. Plus: Naomi Klein on Barack Obama.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
96
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sanamark
3 years ago
Rafe, Rafe, Rafe!
Rafe, your are just plain silly. Carole stands for all the is Righteous, Fair and Good. This alone can get her elected. All she has to do is play it safe and she is absolutely, completely, 100% for sure going to get a HUGE majority, without a doubt, because Gordon Campbell (and Bill Bennett, too, but I digress) is the anti-Christ, the Grinch, Scrooge, raper and defiler of everything rapeable and defilable. He's mean, bad, his feet stink, his boots are too big and he certainly doesn't love Jesus and hating him (the anti-Christ [no-anti-everything good] that he is)is a campaign tactic that is absolutely for sure 100% chance of success can never fail gonna work.
She can just sit back and relax because she can't really say anything that might come back on her when she absolutely definitely 100% for sure forms the next government here in BC.
Cynic
3 years ago
"We're told that Canadians
"We're told that Canadians don't want an election. Why not? Is that walk to the church hall too long a distance for you?"
It's not that, Rafe. It's being subjected to the incessant drivel that will emanate from festering gobs, the vacuous pronouncements, the empty promises, the outright lies. And all or it broadcast over and over in the supine media, polluting the mental environment. It is truly breathtaking to witness the gullibility of people, sucked in election after election, generation after generation.
The only answer is money reform. Any politician who doesn't mention it is simply not worth voting for. And who does? The elections are a farce, change is not coming.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Harper is definitely very
Harper is definitely very smart in a gangland way. But he's nothing more than a programmed, battery operated puppet, enslaved by and only repeating the criminal theories of Milton Friedman and Leo Strauss he was brainwashed with in the university.
What on Earth can anybody expect from a person who was once the head of the National Citizens Coalition, lobbying to kill all public control and ownership of the country and services?
Or who sends Canadian soldiers to be picked off by one in Afghanistan, even on the few roads controlled by the NATO, while the rest of the country is under the power of the Taliban and the warlords?
Absolutely no intelligence, or conscience, or any capability for individual thought, or decision making.
His programmed job is to sell off Canada, while calling it economics, or even the biggest fraud "boom".
One can live high off the hog from the sale of some properties, but what when the dough runs out and he's left with nothing?
Ruling as a dictator and tied into secret deals, if he ever gets any form of majority, there won't be a Canada left by the end of his term, with the negotiations for the sale of the country already going on full blast, waiting for a mandate to finish and execute them.
These disgusting TV ads attempting to make him look like a warm, caring person are nothing more than diversions from the real, sordid, real plans to set up a continent wide corporate dictatorship.
In any case, the real PM of Canada for the last 20 + years has been Tom d'Aquino of the Canadian Council of Chief Executives, and all parties and their puppet leaders are kowtowing to his orders, collecting post politics directorships.
Ed Deak.
realisticman
3 years ago
Cynic
Elect the 'saviour' Dion and it could be coming.
LAWRENCE MARTIN
Globe and Mail
September 8, 2008
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080908.wcomartin08/BNStory/specialComment/?query=
no1important
3 years ago
Gee Raif if McCain is not
Gee Raif if McCain is not smart why is he up by 4 now and up by 10 with likely voters over a guy that has raised gobs of money and gets so much positive airtime?
**The gap between registered voters and likely voters has once again enlarged in the McCain-Palin ticket's favor in this poll. While the Republican ticket leads by 50% to 46% among registered voters, that lead stretches to a 54% to 44% lead among those Gallup sees as most likely to actually turn out and vote. **
http://www.gallup.com/poll/110107/Republicans-Enthusiasm-Jumps-After-Convention.aspx
Any Party or Person has a right to run but I think a vote for the Greens is a vote for Harper this time and the 4 parties many consider whether right or wrong to be the left (Greens are actually right wing with a green plan) will split the vote while the cons have no one to split their vote and that is what scares the shit out of me.
Many Vancouver, Vancouver area and Island ridings are tight 3 way races and if the Greens can take 7-12% of the vote and they could be quite capable of doing that, most of that support will come from the libs and NDP and maybe a little from the cons but it will split the vote enough to allow the cons to sneak up the middle and win ridings they have no business winning with 30-35% of the vote. I would also venture to say this may happen in some Ontario ridings as well.
Regarding Scandals, breaking law to call election early and other conservative shenanigans most people do not know of them, do not care, say the liberals are worse or as tonight as someone said to me at superstore "Harper has only been in for 2 years and deserves a chance" so I dunno. I hear the same waiting for the bus or when I go for coffee at timmies. The other thing is Dion is not liked out here period.
Unless something dramatically changes in the next five weeks, I would say a con minority but would not bet against a con majority either.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Have North Americans Gone Mad?
To my eyes, the world has gone mad, judging by current public voter sentiments.
In the US, we have McCain/Palin now ahead of Obama/Biden in some polls.
And in Canada, some polls show Stephen Harper poised to take a majority this time, thanks to Liberals collapsing in Quebec, and Tories gaining in Ontario.
After all the scandals tying Harper's Tories to unethical and possibly illegal activities: Chuck Cadman-gate, Bernier/Couillard-gate, the Elections Canada raid re. the Tories'illegal election spending racket of the prior campaign, Tory contempt for FOI, and contempt for the press, making them one of the most secretive governments ever,Harper's disgraceful record as a wannabe dictator marginalizing and muzzling all but a few ministers, and unprecedentedly centralizing power and info-control in the PMO, the Tories' disgraceful deny-and-do-nothing record on climate change, the unethical Tory strategy of sabotaging Parliamentary commitees and inquiries ...To top it off, Harper has forced an election, falsely claiming the Opposition has made Parliament dysfunctional while breaking the spirit and perhaps the letter of his own fixed election date law.
--How is it possible, a plurality of Canadians can support such a leader and party? I feel stunned and incredulous at Canadians' inexplicable current voting sentiments.
My hope is Harper is peaking early, and some modicum of rationality and sanity might re-establish itself by Oct.14, and Harper will be denied the majority that, as of today, looks to be within reach. But it may a bridge too far to think Tories can also be reduced to opposition status by Oct. 14.
I'm peeved at the Liberals too for picking
Dion, a leader unsellable in Quebec, and
barely sellable elsewhere.
sanamark
3 years ago
Elections
Now we are saddled with three elections this fall, national, American and Vancouver City. I have responded by simply not paying attention to any of it. I know who I am going to vote for and hundreds of hours of drivel from "pundits" isn't going to change it.
But I suppose that media outlets, this one included, have so much space to fill and the pundits love the sound of their own voices, especially when there is a perceived payoff at the end of the day.
I might add, Rafe, that this excluded you since you have nothing to prove and I find your comment insightful.
bcnaiad
3 years ago
coat tail surfin'
Harper is a perfect product of our educational system and society.... ...."look on my works ye mighty and despair" Shelly's words come to mind
Does anyone else think that maybe the local NDP are surfin' on Barack's coat tails? He's definitely making word 'Democrat' resonate.
So far as the rivers in BC go, those realists who are privy to the appropriate info will tell you it's worse than anyone can imagine?
Where have the fish gone? They've just deemed virtually ALL closed bottom culverts IMPASSIBLE to fish and have quietly implemented a program to evaluate all culverts and prioritize them for replacement. They figure forest service roads alone have +580 000 culverts in, more in transgression of the Fisheries Act than not. This does not include other forms of linear development....eg highways, pipelines, railroads etc which often cut off streams at their very low in watershed and eliminate access to unbelievable amounts of upstream habitat. Just let that one settle in a bit.
thankfully politicians have science and spin to convince the people of whatever they want.
mcdull
3 years ago
Harper
As much as I dislike the Province of BC as a political entity. A Stephen Harper government and his campaign kickoff show what he thinks of the local poliotical arena. Zilch, nothing. Not letting the local media (poor as it is) ask questions ,or even allowing reporters to know where it was being held shows his contempt for west coast issues. He is looking more like king Gordo all the time. And is his nose growing like Campbells and pinnochio's?
realisticman
3 years ago
Give Credits where Credits are due
According to its website: “Air Inuit has accumulated more than 275,000 hours of airtime and carried more than 1.3 million passengers through Nunavut skies.”
Mr. Dion acknowledges the plane is not environmentally friendly, but said the Liberals will purchase offset credits through CarbonZero, a Toronto firm involved in measuring carbon emissions. CarbonZero will put the credits toward a project in Quebec that replaces inefficient gas boilers with new units using heating controls and new energy-efficient piping systems.
Globe & Mail
bikechick
3 years ago
Polls are no longer relevant...
Most people in my age group have given up land-lines for cell phones. The pollsters have no access to these numbers. That said, how can we be judging election tallies on those lovely half-hour telephone polls that come in at dinner time? And who exactly answers them when they do? Sure, Harper, James and McCain may be rising in the polls, but does that mean anything, other than that a few lonely seniors got a phone call and voiced their opinions?
Bobb999
3 years ago
I'm with Rafe in Voting Green
For years I've voted Green in every Federal, Provincial, and Municipal election, ever since regretfully voting NDP under Glen Clark, who went on to betray the environmental wing of the NDP and to systematically roll back environmental advances Harcourt made.
But if I thought my Green vote this time would in some way help Harper, I'd abandon the Greens in order to help beat Harper.
Fortunately I'm in the very safe NDP riding of Vancouver East. No other party has a chance of ousting Libby Davies, so I can safely vote Green here. It's in no way a wasted vote, as it will add to the Green % vote tally, and, as Rafe points out, a vote for the Greens means an automatic cash contribution of $1.75 to the party, and hey, every little bit helps!
Today's Globe & Mail site just gave me another reason to vote Green, the shameful conspiracy between the other parties and TV execs. to shut Elizabeth May out of the debates:
(QUOTE):
OTTAWA — Green Party Leader Elizabeth May is challenging other party leaders to state publicly what they have supposedly said privately: That they would rather boycott the debates than share a stage with her.
“This is anti-democratic, closed-door, backroom decision making by four national party leaders who are all men and five television executives – who are all men – to keep out the one woman leader of a federal party,” Ms. May told reporters on Parliament Hill, where she responded to the announcement that she will not be invited to the debates. “And I don't think many Canadians will think that was fair.”
Ms. May said the party has decided to pursue legal action against the broadcasters in Federal Court. She criticized the consortium for not spelling out clear criteria as to what hurdles the Greens must meet to be included...
North of Hope
3 years ago
ies and mud slinging
mcdull said" As much as I dislike the Province of BC as a political entity. A Stephen Harper government and his campaign kickoff show what he thinks of the local poliotical arena. Zilch, nothing. Not letting the local media (poor as it is) ask questions ,or even allowing reporters to know where it was being held shows his contempt for west coast issues. He is looking more like king Gordo all the time. And is his nose growing like Campbells and pinnochio's?"
So true and many of Harper's spin doctor's also work for Campbell. So we get a mirror image of style, including lies and mud slinging.
G West
3 years ago
You're right Bobb999
Lizzy May should be in the debate - and if little stephen of the sweater vest doesn't like it, he should lump it.
The other parties and the media should tell pee wee to go spit...have the debate without him and erect a cardboard cut-out to sit on the CPP chair during the proceedings.
His contempt for the people and the media is so profound that he should be permitted to stay home all he likes and sulk.
She should use the courts, now, to challenge this decision.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
And WHO is REALLY RESPONSIBLE???
The Conservatives have nothing to fear of Elizabeth May in the televised debates.
The only parties who have something to fear from Elly May are the Liberals and the NDP where the Greens draw most of their support base from.
"We believe that as someone who's endorsed (Liberal Leader) Stephane Dion to be the prime minister of Canada, she has endorsed Liberal candidates throughout the country," Lavigne said.
Brilliant strategy... NOT!
Not only is May gonna appeal that decision to the Federal Court of Canada, I can see a huge protest outside the television studio both prior and during the debates.
G West
3 years ago
Guess you haven't heard the Harper mantra
St Stephen Harper of the sweater vest is afraid that Ms May has cooked up a 'deal' with Stephane Dion - you might want to have a listen to the National on CBC TV...
If pee wee isn't afraid of Ms May, he certainly sounds like he is - which isn't surprising since his economic policy and that of the Greens are equally neo con.
NicS
3 years ago
The ARS Poll Is Just Icing On A Rising NDP Cake
The August 28 poll by ARS may be just one poll, but the graph of polls since January on the
BC Elections 2009 site is definitely pointing in the same direction as ARS's poll.
It has been said by some that ARS's poll was the only poll done by internet instead of by phone and that this may account for some inaccuracies. As the demographic that has access to internet is different than those that have access to land line phones. Also in the mix is the claim by some of the younger cell phone only users that their #'s are not available to the pollsters.
So if cell phone only users and none internet users are not being polled at all, who will they be voting for? Chances could be, the NDP!
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
The Greens... A Reality Check
Where did ya get that spin from??? ;)
A couple of simple cases in point:
1. Centre-left Vision Vancouver mayoral candidate Gregor Robertson - former Green Party member;
2. Centre-left Vision Vancouver council prospect Andrea Reimer - Green party member and former VSB Green Party Trustee.
3. Left-wing COPE Vancouver councillor Fred Bass - Green Party member;
4. Ann Livingston - 2005 Vancouver City council Green Party candidate;
http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/12/13/AnnLivingston/
5. Centre-left Vision Vancouver currently agreeing with left-wing COPE to allow for Green party candidates in upcoming civic elections:
http://www.francesbula.com/?p=204
6. Adrian Carr, former NDP member, currently running as the Green Party candidate in Vancouver Centre;
And on and on...
Is there anyone from your perspective that is NOT a "neo-con"?????? :)
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
As for BC and the Greens...
From my post in another thread:
Only this past weekend did Ipsos release a BC federal opinion poll with a 464 sample size, which IMHO gives a reasonable snapshot of current standings in BC:
[with 2006 BC results in brackets]
CPC: 43% (37% / +6%)
Liberals: 27% (28% / -1%)
NDP: 16% (29% / -13%)
Green: 13% (5% / +8%)
It looks like the NDP is bleeding votes to the Greens and the Conservatives while the Liberals are standing still.
For now.
Van Isle
3 years ago
It boggles the mind on why
It boggles the mind on why Canadians still vote for the 2 established federal political parties who always forms our governments. Those parties have been in power, one time or another, since Canada began. Why doesn't the average Canadian learn that whom ever we vote in, we're going to have the same results; the same boneheads running the insane asylum in Ottawa. The political power isn't in the House of Commons, it's in the Prime Ministers Office and it's run by a dictatorship in between elections. Democracy in Canada is a myth.
G West
3 years ago
Huh!
You just gave me a list of candidates...and laid down another personal insult...
Perhaps you've forgotten Lizzy May said that BM the PM was our 'greenest' prime minister...
G West
3 years ago
Guess you missed this poll
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/09/04/f-full-poll.html
Looks a lot different from yours luke.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Pollsters...
Environics... Again a relatively small BC sub-sample size.
BTW, lots of pollsters to choose from federally...
Environics, Pollara, Harris Decima, Innovative Research, Segma, Ekos, Angus Reid Strategies, Nanos Research, Strategic Counsel... etc, etc.
Lots of 'em.
With varying track records.
But when it comes to BC and pollster's track records thereto, Mustel and Ipsos are bar none and have the best track records with their "BC specific polls".
Been following this stuff for years.
But feel free to choose and select as ya like. ;)
YerMomma
3 years ago
Hey, I'm on!
Took me a while to get past the Tyee censors but since I'm here let me say a few words:
1. The Tories called this election because they see the writing on the wall. Bad times comin' due to the Bush/Cheney idiocy of spending all the American Money on a war they can't win; to bolster the profits of the War Machine - never mind Americans, they COULDA BEEN! The Tories want in now because it will be a lot harder after the Americans throw out the pretenders to democracy in the USA. (Patriot Act, did i hear you say)
2. Our economic prospects sink as America goes down, the tubes-who wants to fight an election on murderous boobs?
3. Could it be that the neocons have looked at the American election and see the disbelief in Canadian eyes? (the rich man profits while the poor man cries)
4. And want to 'win Canada' to bolster neocon lies?
5. Could it be that America looks north and says, 'If we win in CANADA, we'll bolster NEOCON ways?'
You be the judge.
G West
3 years ago
Thanks luke
Big of 'ya!
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
You may be right but they think they do. I saw Harper himself say he basically thinks she's a Liberal.
Do you recall the last leader of the Greens pre-May? He was an ex-Conservative.
And as G pointed out, May thought Mulroney was a damn good guy.
Have you listened to the Green supporters on this forum such as Cycling Commuter talk about how much they hate unions and the NDP? I'm sure Greens take some votes from the NDP but they also take votes from the Libs and Cons.
Have you read the Green policy platform? They want to invent almost as many taxes as the Liberals and Conservatives. And their tax ideas seem to have the same theme as all the "new ideas" from the Libs and Cons, which is progressive taxes bad, user fees good.
I think even Charles Dickens thought the Lib, Con and Green tax ideas were old.
As for May herself, of course she should be in the televised debate. If more people knew what the Green platform actually was I think they'd get less support.
Frank
3 years ago
A petard that needs hoisting
1. Centre-left Vision Vancouver mayoral candidate Gregor Robertson - former Green Party member;
Wasn't Fidel Castro at Pierre Trudeau's funeral? Didn't they chum together now and then?
I think that proves Trudeau was a communist does it not?
Frank
3 years ago
One petard.. two petards
Or was Trudeau really an ex-fascist like Charles Adler has mentioned on CKNW? Something about wearing an arm-band?
Frank
3 years ago
Green platform
One cool idea from the Greens is basic dental coverage for all Canadians.
Strangely however I already voted for this back in 1981 I think it was when Allan Blakeney included the idea in his platform. But Grant Devine won.
On health the Greens sound kinda wishy-washy except as it relates to alternative medicines and herbs and such. They admit some concern about the rise of two-tier health but that's it.
On education I'm not sure what they stand for but the phrase "changed to an educational paradigm based on humanitarian sustainable values" seems to be both lacking specifics and kinda scary.
I'm also pretty sure the Greens will immediately boycott all American products based on their human rights record. That might be fun. They are also going to reduce the need for immigration by making 3rd world countries better to live in. That's cool.
They're also going to pull out of NATO and NORAD and not allow Toronto to ship its garbage to Michigan.
I'm also pretty sure they're going to pull out of all magor international trade agreements unless those same agreements suddenly meet their environmental standards. They also say they're going to try to make us more self-sufficient. Its not looking good for GATT but I like it.
I think we're also going to enter into an alliance with Estonia.
I'm with them on banning whaling too.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
What's happened to your Liberals?
Very few seem to think they're good on issues like the economy or health care and you guys are really really bad when it comes to honesty. Why is that?
The Liberals may have had a great run last century but perhaps their brand has passed its "best before" date?
Looks to me like the Libs and Cons could end up merging which wouldn't be a surprise to me.
Frank
3 years ago
sanamark
Excellent, glad to hear you're not reading this and then ranting against democracy again.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank...
Ahhhhh... Do ya REALLY believe your own words sometimes??? ;)
Of course ol' Progressive Conservatives are also involved in the Green Party. That's akin to ol' New Democrats like BC NDP premiers Harcourt, Miller, and Dosanjh involved with the federal Liberal Party.
But that's not what really matters. It's the voters at large that count.
As for the Green Party platform, in many cases much of that is akin to or to the left of the New Democrat platform.
As for union hatin' Greenies, just doesn't make sense. For example, Victoria is a government-based union town that has strong NDP ridings provincially. Yet in the last Mustel provincial preference sounding:
Says alot about Green Party supporters.
Or was Trudeau really an ex-fascist like Charles Adler has mentioned on CKNW? Something about wearing an arm-band?
Sheesh, your now soundin' more and more alot like a dude called "Al Bundy"! :)
BTW and FWIW, I know this guy who is a staunch unionist, socialist, and rabid environmentalist. Began working politically for Harcourt's mayoral campaign in 1980.
He even made a sign, displayed from inside his vehicle for the 2006 federal election, with the approximate wording: "Stop US Corporate Money Dictating Canadian Domestic Policy. VOTE NDP".
Spoke with him earlier this week about the federal election and was floored with his current voting intentions.. Liberal!... "Because we have to stop a Conservative majority"!
Couldn't believe it.
Frank
3 years ago
Believe it
Do you EVER read any commentors besides me? Union-hating Greens are not hard to find here.
I'll take that as you agreeing.
Really? What did Al Bundy say about Trudeau? Did he call him a fascist or a communist based on his previous politics and those he liked to associate with?
C'mon Luke, did the rock you live under just get turned over to make way for a Run of River project? The story of NDP'ers voting Liberal to stop the Conservatives is older than the Port Mann bridge.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Ohhhh Frank...
The federal Liberal brand is still very strong no matter what goofball leader that they may currently have. Apparently Canadian voters seem to agree based upon your wingman's latest "federal" poll: ;)
Party %
Conservative Party 25
Liberal Party 25
New Democratic Party 23
Deal with the economy?
Party %
Conservative Party 41
Liberal Party 28
New Democratic Party 10
Canadians believe that the Liberals are well ahead of the NDP on YOUR issues. ;)
Ergo... NDP voters should vote for the centre/centre-left Liberals to prevent Conservatives from gaining a majority government.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
You consider a "25" and a "28" to be "very strong"? Man oh man, I can remember a day when the Liberals would have laughed at such numbers. As I alluded to above, how the mighty Liberals have fallen eh.
They almost always are.
Roughly half of 1600 Canadian leftists died vainly in Spain to prevent governments like Harper's and Chretien's. I can't see myself pissing on their graves to support a guy like Dion when the fact is life under both he and Harper would look much the same to the needy in this country. Don't you agree?
Frank
3 years ago
Election prediction
I predict "voter apathy" (or cynicism) will win the federal election, and the US one too.
Many people have simply given up that meaningful change will ever occur in their lifetimes and its hard to blame them.
Nice to see the US gov't has found oodles of billions of taxpayer dollars to bail out the investment class while they continue to have one of the worst poverty rates.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank...
Oh come on. While I would also be on the same side of that matter today, you are attempting to equate 1930's fascist Spain under Franco with centre/ centre-left Canadian Liberals and even New Democrats such as Dosanjh, Miller, and Harcourt???
That's quite a stretch... to put it mildly.
Sheesh, even many of today's German Social Democrats could be construed as coming from the Paul Martin wing of the Liberal party, compared to their 1930's counterparts, who also supported the Spaniards on the Republican side.
YerMomma
3 years ago
I Don't believe it.
Quote:
The Conservatives have nothing to fear of Elizabeth May in the televised debates.
And that's why they locked her out?
You may be right but they think they do. I saw Harper himself say he basically thinks she's a Liberal.
Where exactly did you see this?
Do you recall the last leader of the Greens pre-May? He was an ex-Conservative.
Obviously he came to he senses.
And as G pointed out, May thought Mulroney was a damn good guy.
Could we have a reference to this please? Or are you making it up as you go along?
Have you listened to the Green supporters on this forum such as Cycling Commuter talk about how much they hate unions and the NDP? I'm sure Greens take some votes from the NDP but they also take votes from the Libs and Cons.
This is nonsense. The greens took several ridings away from the NDP/LIBERALS in the last election
Have you read the Green policy platform? They want to invent almost as many taxes as the Liberals and Conservatives. And their tax ideas seem to have the same theme as all the "new ideas" from the Libs and Cons, which is progressive taxes bad, user fees good.
Show me one example please. I read their platform and didn't see that at all.
I think even Charles Dickens thought the Lib, Con and Green tax ideas were old.
As for May herself, of course she should be in the televised debate. If more people knew what the Green platform actually was I think they'd get less support.
Let the woman speak for herself then. She doesn't need your support.
The problem with you, old son, is that you put words and ideas into other people's mouths without even a SHRED of substantiation. If you're such a political hotshot, let's see some actual validation of your assertions.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Depends on your point of view, if you're inclined to think that Chretien and Harper are "centre-left" (presumably making them just a shade to the Right of the Popular Front) then I have to shake my head.
Anyway, I assume you're dropping your defence of the Liberals by admitting that numbers in the 20's and lower on major issues (and 14% on honesty) demonstrates that brand will perhaps never again attain the dominance of the federal landscape it once had?
Frank
3 years ago
YerMomma
On CBC's national newscast. Harper said he would not be surprised to see May endorse Dion before election day. Do you have a tv?
Are you new to Canada? May called Mulroney our "greenest prime minister". There was an award banquet. It was in all the papers and on tv.
You need to pay more attention to political life in Canada and do some research now and then on subjects other than 9-1-1 being an inside job.
Frank
3 years ago
YerMomma
Carbon taxes, not based on income or wealth.
I believe that's 3.
YerMomma
3 years ago
Frank the Disengenous
Quote:
'A couple of simple cases in point:
Wasn't Fidel Castro at Pierre Trudeau's funeral? Didn't they chum together now and then?
I think that proves Trudeau was a communist does it not?'
Lemme get this straight; because Fidel Castro went to Pierre Trudeau's funeral, that proves that that Pierre was a communist? Can you say horseshit?
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank....
Something to know about federal politics...
The Liberals have two wings... the centre-left wing (call it the Chretien wing where BC New Democrat premiers Harcourt, Miller, and Dosanjh are situate politically) and the centre-right wing (call it the Martin wing);
The Conservatives have two wings... the centre-left wing (the old red tory wing which is almost non-existent) and the centre-right wing (Harper at al);
The NDP has two wings... the centre-left wing (Svend Robinsons, Libby Davies) and the centre-right wing (Nelson Riis, Yvon Godin, Pat Martin);
So to equate both Chretien and Harper as "centre-left" does not a political prognosticator make.
Au contraire. Still in second place nationally (double the NDP voting intentions and not far behind the Conservatives);
Canada's natural governing party.
As for "honesty" let's look back at the BC NDP prior to their 2001 provincial election wipe-out.
Top issue on "voters minds" in terms of dumping the NDP?????
http://www.mustelgroup.com/pr/20010422.htm
YerMomma
3 years ago
3 what?
It's kinda hard to argue with reason like that. 3 what please?
YerMomma
3 years ago
Lies to Believe In
Quote:
Where exactly did you see this?
'On CBC's national newscast. Harper said he would not be surprised to see May endorse Dion before election day. Do you have a tv?'
So Harper's say so makes May a Liberal? I doubt it.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Yet, you did. You didn't call them Right-wing or even centre-right. You called them "centre, centre/left". They aren't centre-left at all.
By all means, I'll compare the 90's BC NDP to the 90's Federal Liberals all day. Glen Clark got some help on his deck. Your own poll shows the NDP at 18%, whereas the Libs are getting only 14% on that issue even now, years later.
The BC NDP are polling higher than the federal Libs are now too.
I think that's called "grabbing at straws". Being in 2nd place would be pretty good if it was the NDP because they've never done it for any sustained period of time. Being far back in 2nd place for two elections when you're the Canadian Liberal party and have a tradition of winning ("natural governing party") no matter who the leader, it shows something has changed.
YerMomma
3 years ago
Honesty?
Quote:
'As for "honesty" let's look back at the BC NDP prior to their 2001 provincial election wipe-out.'
As for 'honesty' let's look back at the Liberals promise not to sell BRITISH COLUMBIA Rail. And their promise not to privatize British Columbia Hydro.
Frank
3 years ago
YerMomma
Changing my words? I never said anything about May being a Liberal.
Here's my response to Luke again.
The Conservatives have nothing to fear of Elizabeth May in the televised debates.
You may be right but they think they do. I saw Harper himself say he basically thinks she's a Liberal.
The key words there are "he basically thinks". You'll notice I didn't say "I think May's a Liberal".
Harper does not want May in the debate. His reason, at least the one he voices, is that he thinks May is too close to Dion meaning he's already going to debate Dion and doesn't see why he should also debate someone he thinks might endorse Dion.
As to what I said, I think she should be in the debate. Keeping her out when her party has been steadily polling above 5% is ludicrous.
YerMomma
3 years ago
New to Canada!
Quote:
'Are you new to Canada? May called Mulroney our "greenest prime minister". There was an award banquet. It was in all the papers and on tv.'
Ah, but you haven't yet provided one reference. We're waiting...
Frank
3 years ago
YerMomma
Your web browser is prevented from using google?
Here's the very first story that came up when I googled it :
"At the time, I don't think there was any environmentalist who had anything good to say about Mr. Mulroney," Harper said of Mulroney's time as prime minister.
"Now he's regarded years later as the greenest prime minister. I believe the reason he's regarded that way is that he didn't pursue grandiose schemes and unworkable arrangements and the kind of problem we got into on Kyoto (greenhouse gas protocol). Instead, he decided to make real progress, concrete progress, on particular issues."
Mulroney's environmental record
Elizabeth May of the Sierra Club, who helped initiate Thursday's event, told The Canadian Press that Mulroney made the environment a priority for his government.
She said he was the first leader to sign the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change in 1992, which was a predecessor to the Kyoto Protocol.
Mulroney also managed to finalize an acid-rain treaty that sharply reduced sulphur emissions in eastern North America, despite misgivings by Ronald Reagan, the U.S. president at the time, according to CTV's Ottawa bureau chief Robert Fife.
One of Mulroney's lasting decisions was the $3-billion Green Plan, funding environmental research that produced data still widely used today.
"The truth is that for many years I've been saying that Brian Mulroney had an environmental records that puts subsequent prime ministers to shame," May told CTV News.
Thursday's dinner celebration proved to be the "hottest ticket in Ottawa," Fife said.
Tables costing $2,500 sold out within four days, quickly bought by corporations like SunLife and Enbridge. About 300 people were placed on a waiting list.
Among those lucky enough to attend were Quebec Premier Jean Charest, who served as an environment minister under Mulroney, former Liberal cabinet minister Sheila Copps, and comedian Rick Mercer, who gave an opening act.
Frank
3 years ago
The link itself
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060420/mulroney_green_cp_060419/20060420?hub=TopStories
YerMomma
3 years ago
Too bad he sold the country
It's wonderful the BM was a staunch supporter of environmentalism.
Unfortunately, I watched in Ontario as one or two factories a week closed their doors and went south - to America or Mexico. It goes on to this day. Ask the laid off factory workers in Ontario how they feel about Mulroney and his 'Free Trade' deal, which netted him millions at the expense of millions of Canadian workers. Ask the workers in the US. Ask the workers in Mexico how they feel about US agriculture subsidies. Nobody benefited except large corporations. If we had more 'Canadians' like him, we wouldn't be a country.
Is that 'green plan' he funded (with our money) being used to evaluate the environment effects of the tar sands on this planet? Just because Steven Harper says Mulroney was an environmentalist, is nothing to get excited about.
YerMomma
3 years ago
Cool Idea Indeed
Quote:
One cool idea from the Greens is basic dental coverage for all Canadians.
Strangely however I already voted for this back in 1981 I think it was when Allan Blakeney included the idea in his platform. But Grant Devine won.
One strike and we're out huh?
On health the Greens sound kinda wishy-washy except as it relates to alternative medicines and herbs and such. They admit some concern about the rise of two-tier health but that's it.
40 million American have NO HEALTH COVERAGE because they can't afford it.
On education I'm not sure what they stand for but the phrase "changed to an educational paradigm based on humanitarian sustainable values" seems to be both lacking specifics and kinda scary.
It means less Coke machines and more real ideas.
I'm also pretty sure the Greens will immediately boycott all American products based on their human rights record. That might be fun. They are also going to reduce the need for immigration by making 3rd world countries better to live in. That's cool.
Did they say that?
They're also going to pull out of NATO and NORAD and not allow Toronto to ship its garbage to Michigan.
Nato is a US puppet for imperialism. NORAD is the one which failed America on 911.
I'm also pretty sure they're going to pull out of all magor international trade agreements unless those same agreements suddenly meet their environmental standards. They also say they're going to try to make us more self-sufficient. Its not looking good for GATT but I like it.
Any tiny references on this? Or just your opinion
I think we're also going to enter into an alliance with Estonia.
Estonia is now a member of NATO and doesn't give a damn what you think.
I'm with them on banning whaling too.
Glad to hear it!
G West
3 years ago
Here's the green platform yer momma
http://www.greenparty.ca/files/2004GPCpolicy_0.pdf
Look for yourself.
btw, your posts would be more coherent and readable if you used the little 'quote' feature to set off the words of others from your own.
G West
3 years ago
Oh
And if you're looking for some more evidence about lizzy may and BM the PM, you can look here:
http://www.corporateknights.ca/downloads/earth_gala_program.pdf
As a rule you can count on Frank to have his facts straight...others - not so much.
G West
3 years ago
And here are the musings
And here are the musings (from that source) of a couple of conservative icons on matters 'green':
“Trees cause more pollution than
automobiles do.” *
—Ronald Reagan, 1981
“My science is limited to the fact that eons ago there was an ice age. I know that. I also know that the arctic was once covered by tundra and I guess it makes me wonder why. Was it dinosaur
farts? I don’t know.”
—Ralph Klein, 2002
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
GWest
Not so much.
This will be a nice routing. Contact your travel agent or British Airways:
The airline will use Airbus A318s configured with 32 all-business class seats twice-daily.
Frank
3 years ago
YerMomma
Yer kind of all over the map. Where did you get the idea I was defending Brian Mulroney?
Not at all, I said the idea was cool, its just not new. Resurrecting 30 year old NDP ideas is fine with me.
The thing is May is running in Canada, not the US, and I would like to see some specifics as to what she would do about the rise in two-tier care here. Is it wrong to ask for more than an expression of concern?
Yes they did. Start at page 20 of their platform and go from there.
Thank you, any idea what those "real" ideas are?
Again, sounds like someone stole the NDP playbook.
See page 20-26 of the Green platform.
I'm thrilled that Estonia is so resilient to outside pressure they don't care what I think. The thing is, we're not talking about Estonia, we're talking about the Green party of Canada's platform.
By the way, any proof to your claim that 2 factories a week have been closing in Ontario every week since 1984 (almost 2500 factories?) and that 9-1-1 was an inside job and that only 40 million Americans have no health insurance or Mulroney netting million from Cdn workers due to the free trade deal? You didn't post any proofs and with the attitude you display toward my posts I would think you'd want to do that.
G West
3 years ago
Britain and realism
So you didn't read the interview with the chancellor...
You are a BIG booster of air travel at all costs, I will give you that.
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/09/elxn-fuel-tax.html?ref=rss
Geez, what are you going to do eh?
You loved the Campbell carbon-tax because it raised the price of energy and you said Campbell had made you a believer. Now your Tories are going to cut the price of diesel.
I happily prefer the Tory plan to the Campbell one. Layton's idea of putting the tax towards cities to build transit infrastructure is good too, he gets the Silver and in a better world we'd get both, a cut in regressive taxes and more money for transit.
How about you? Whose policy do you like now, Campbell's or Harper's?
Frank
3 years ago
Ooops
Forgot to mention the Dion (and Green?) plan, creating yet another new tax on people and then creating a new bureaucracy to administer subsidies to specific groups affected by the new tax seems absolutely stupid.
Frank
3 years ago
Liz May
Greens must have a collection of old NDP policy books
http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/495683
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
Gee Frank, we gotta do something. Just ask Garth, the world is coming to an end - he said so. We gotta think about the heartland too. All those hard working farmers and families that haven't access to transit. Both ideas make sense.
Maybe we should vote for Jack. As you say, he deserves the silver. Maybe, since Liz May's gaggle is not really supper-green with the required progressive quotient, Jack should change the NDP to the Green Democratic Party. New's a bit old now and 'Vote for the GDP' has a neat kinda ring to it.
This is neat too:
http://www.carbonzero.ca
They're big on weddings too. Good job too, I'd never have considered the disastrous planetary ramifications of importing silk from Thailand. Sobering, eh?
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
I read what you said twice and I think you're saying you prefer the Campbell-Dion-Green vision to the Harper-NDP one (my choice).
By the way, did you like Norman Spector's article in the Globe about Carole James?
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Sorry, forgot to post this link to Harper's attack on Campbell for background.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080909.BCELECTION09/TPStory/National
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
Norman's sounding a necessary bell and he's right, James has maintained a decent posture.
G West
3 years ago
Where?
Did I ever say this: Just ask Garth, the world is coming to an end - he said so...
As usual, instead of actually dealing with the facts, you stand on the sidelines and sling mud...
I understand the Greens are looking for candidates...maybe you could find an opening.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Thomas Walkom
http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/495706
I'm telling ya, its only a matter of time before the Cons and the failing Libs merge, (like they have in BC).
By the way, I liked this quote
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
That is a good quote, Frank.
Much more of exposing Harper's progressive Hidden Agenda and the crazy neo-cons will become undecideds; and maybe eventually swing to the Liberals.
realisticman
3 years ago
Love this Headline
PM POO-POO'S POOPIN' PUFFIN
Apparently Harper then went on and ate it.
CTV.ca News Staff
Harper says pooping puffin was 'tasteless'
Another twist:
CJAD
Turns out the actor named yesterday as the Liberal candidate in Outremont riding previously flirted with the Action Democratique on the provincial scene, the Tories on the federal level and was on the YES side during the last referendum. 58-year old Sebastien Dhavernas was appointed by the Harper Tories to a federal tribunal dealing with professional relations in the arts. He resigned recently, denouncing Harper's cuts to culture funding. Back in 1995, Dhavernas ran the YES campaign in NDG. Now he says he no longer believes in sovereignty.
...and next week Sebastien, The Rhinos?
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
By the way, I assume you're with me and against the new Hydro pricing plan that penalizes people with kids?
Frank
3 years ago
Vancouver Sun
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=9270173c-ce30-4d2f-84ef-8257e83ee57c
Here's the link to their thoughts on the Hydro plan.
Although I do like how they refer to people that believe as I do an "eccentric fringe"
As long as the number of people on Earth continues to increase, the economy will have to grow as well to provide the jobs people need and produce the goods consumers demand. A rising population and economic growth are seen as inimical to a healthy planet.
morechatter
3 years ago
I like him
despite his partie's politics because Harper is a natural leader and he dosen't buckle under pressure and he is his own man. However I'm not sure about tax cuts for Canadians who are feeling the demands made on yesterday's dollar as energy prices takes it's tole on the price of consumer goods. At first I didn't think much of tax break as seemed as Conservatives taking easy way out by buying votes as Canadian's needy cities and homeless are left out of equation but this is just not a good time to dip into public's pockets for those much needed resources. The Liberals are proposing an added carbon tax on an added carbon tax where Canadians are already being over taxed at the pumps to win over public vote. Dion is into saving a threatened polar bear from melt down yet its contaminated food supply is a present day threat to bear's existence. I agree with Cynic we need change to the whole process as advertisers spin their stories of better days to come and it becomes more about the big money needed to get the message out there while politicians are enticed by those looking for favors to see it their way instead of the people who elected them into office with little accountability.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
God help us from the
God help us from the attention of "natural leaders".
I've had personal experiences with a few. Like Hitler, Stalin and Churchill.
To the best of my recollectioon, the purpose of democracy is to limit the powers of people who imagine themselves being "leaders", natural, or would be dictators, who imagine themselves as "leaders".
Harper is nothing more than a brainwashed, programmed puppet on his way to even more directorships than Mulroney.
Ed Deak.
morechatter
3 years ago
I still like em
Ed Deak maybe its the way Harper carries himself on the world stage, self assured, confident all the while standing out from the other world leaders that first caught my attention and made me kinda proud to be Canadian. And I like that he swings left when needed and is not stuck to any set perscribed formal for making it a better place for all Canadians to live. And if you Harp on Harper you are most likely going to hear you unlike the deaf ears of the Liberals
And as far as leaders go are you trying to tell me the Liberals only attract followers that jump to the pumps for a tax grabs is all follower stuff?
Harper and Hitler I just don't see it although many have compared are prominent unnatural Liberal leader, Campbell to former unnatural leader, Hitler and I kinda see that.
BrianWhite
3 years ago
Beating Harper
I take great offence to the deluge of crap that I got in my mailbox in the runup.
Trying to scare the old people like that!
I think we should remind voters that harper is the king of deregulation.
Not just that, he kills off regulation by reducing the regulatory authoritys to a few token inspectors/auditors and a berevement councilor/industry spokesman like the man from health canada.
Regulation prevents death. People might have been saved from death due to spinach, meat or tomatoes if health canada had not replaced food inspectors with auditors.
These deaths will surely become more numerous if Harper wins again.
Harper has a great disconnect in his logic. The holy free market and the holy bible are his twin religions.
How does he reconsile his rigid belief in the darwinist free market (at its most savage being "starve, you homeless crippled or old bastard"), with a god of compassion?
I think some christians among us might have cause to doubt Harper if they can be shown that disconnect.
For Harper, there is no disconnect, just a sunday cloak.
freebear
3 years ago
Free Market aside
Just a question about the free market.
With cahmbers of commerce and business associations saying that government should stay out of business matters, why did the U.s. government and taxpayers have to bail (loan guarantees) out two mortgage brokerage firms?
Free to market until they botch it up and 'we' the taxpayer must come to the rescue?
Oh perhaps that is the NeoCon Free Market!
Frank
3 years ago
Neocon free market
Socialism for the investment class, everybody else is on their own.
Bailey
3 years ago
Shooting craps with other people's money
This really pisses me off. As an exercise in disrespecting democracy this is right up there. In the last election, against all odds, we got the precise result that we needed and even deserved.
God preserve us from any of these bizarre bozos ever gaining a majority government. The whole purpose and strategy behind this election is that they all wish for a majority, so they can impose things on Canada that they know for certain Canadians don't want.
This explains the unwillingness of Harper to talk about his real position anymore, and also the horrible approximation of smiling he's been doing in public lately.
I'd be willing to bet a new looney they gave him lessons in smiling, but found him unable to grasp the reasoning behind it. And that he practices it in front of a mirror.
It also explains the unwillingness of all but Dion to allow Ms. May to ask them questions in public.
The timing is clearly related to their awareness that the bad behaviour of the American government the Conservatives and the Liberals have associated themselves with seems likely to cause a very wide swing of the pendulum there. And each and every one of these opportunists sees a chance in that fact. Each a different chance, but still.
Harper deserves to lose the leadership for this, but please, please, please, don't give any of these caricatures a majority government.
G West
3 years ago
I think
I think we're going to see Ms May in the debate - and I think she'll probably eat pee wee's lunch.
They've also taken down the offensive Puffin Poop ad - and I think the electorate has had just about enough of Sweater vest Stephen and his phony empty smile.
I don't know whether or not his neocon acolytes will continue with the Flanagan program to its logical conclusion but I'd say the first couple of days of this election are not turning out the way pee wee planned.
Look for a big change, maybe a quick trip to Afghanistan for some photo ops in Camo gear and a Kevlar helmet.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
You're right, Bailey.
You're right, Bailey. Majority in the hands of either, would mean national suicide.
Ed Deak.
Des
3 years ago
politics
Ed Deak is the only poster here who makes total sense of a totally nonsensical situation. Can't we write his name in as our next PM? No? Too bad.
Remember, we have to vote for our local member. And we don't have the choice to keep on voting until someone is elected with 50% plus 1 for a true win, so we'll never have a real democracy elected by the will of the majority.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Des.....No party would
Des.....No party would nominate me, as I don't follow party rules, ideologies, or religions. Never had any political, or leadership ambitions. I don't want to lead, or follow anybody.
In any case, I'm 81, still working 7 days a week on a great variety of projects and in fields, and enjoy life far too much to be tied up in crap like politics.
At the same time, I'm willing to take on any politician, or neoclassical economist in debate and wipe the floor with them.
Just for the fun of it.
Cheers, Ed.
Bailey
3 years ago
Dear Des
I would argue that in difficult, polarized times when the level of education is low and the level of propaganda high, as it is now, a minority government IS democracy in it's best form.
How else, when politicians of all stripes refute their duty to represent all their constituents in favour of representing only their biggest "contributors", can all viewpoints be fairly represented?
In a minority, each side must get the agreement of the others to accomplish anything. Nobody can just use their power to ram whatever they want down the country's throats, so whatever does get implemented is well considered and has broad support.
Partisan payoffs are much more difficult to arrange, or hide.
You're right that someone with a real thought and a good understanding of economics would be a real treat, but Ed's also right that such a real person would be ruined by our current setup.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Bailey.........The whole
Bailey.........The whole crime wave against humanity hangs on the presently practiced and accepted, fraudulent definition of economic efficiency, the fraudulent calculations of the GDP, growth and productivity figures, enhanced by the deregulated money creation powers by the banks, pushing out the perceived power of non existing, imaginary money to colonize and enslave the world.
Harper is a miseducated economist, who supports all this. So are hundreds of governments around the world, led up the garden path by their own brainwashed economists.
Until the crime wave of this sector is broken, the world and humanity will go down the path of self destruction
Yet, no politician of any hue dares to question the origins of this banditry.
I've killed the neoclassical theory with one single page, copyrighted in 1991. It remains unbroken on many worldwide economic forums, incl. several by the World Bank, as it is unbreakable, based on long standing physical laws.
It can not be used, because the cold, hard facts would knock off the ruling class, the multinational corporate mafia, taking over the world and no politician has the guts to do this.
Ed Deak.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Greens better qualified to debate than early Manning or Bouchard
G West:
I hope you're right Ms. May will end up in the TV debates due to pressure brought to bear on networks and pols. But I fear
Layton, Harper and TV execs will not easily back down and admit they're wrong on this one, but may dig in their heels.
Chantal Hebert today
http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/496450
offers a reasonable argument suggesting '08's Green party is better qualified than the early BQ and Reform parties were when they WERE allowed into TV election debates.
In the 1993 election, the established parties were just as opposed to the addition of new debate players as the NDP and the Conservatives are today. They brought at least one solid objection to the fore and it was the fact that neither the Reform party, nor the Bloc Québécois, could claim to be national parties.
Reform had not yet extended its wings east of Manitoba. Moreover, Preston Manning was not bilingual. In the end, it was decided he would limit himself to an opening statement in French. Lucien Bouchard, on the hand, was granted full participation rights in both debates, a privilege his successor enjoys to this day.
The Green party runs candidates in every province and May is fluently bilingual. Over the past 12 months, the Green score in the national polls has ranged from 7 per cent to 13 per cent. Support for the Bloc Québécois over the same period has never exceeded 9 per cent.
Since the last campaign, May's party has been shown to be more than a parking lot for the undecided, coming in ahead of the NDP and the Conservatives in a handful of by-elections.
Unlike the 1993 Bloc and Reform parties, the Greens have yet to win a single seat. To meet the threshold of parliamentary representation set by the networks, May took a back door, recruiting former Liberal Blair Wilson in the dying days of the last Parliament.
But if the Bloc had been made up only of floor-crossers, would Radio-Canada and TVA really have courted the ire of Quebecers by excluding Bouchard from the French-language debate? That is highly unlikely. And by the same token, thousands of westerners would have been up in arms over any attempt to exclude Manning..."
Frank
3 years ago
Bobb999
Layton has changed his mind about May being in the debate.
morechatter
3 years ago
And what about Layton
And his party picking up votes as it is a real possiblity the NDP could very well be a contender in the up coming election as possible opposition as Canadians look for change. I take back that Hilter thing as the only thing that comes to mind is Campbell's camps for the homeless but thats where comparision ends when it comes to Canada's leaders. Hilter was a madman out for world domination and a mass murder hardly compareable to any Canadian leader. And the Mulroney thing is not just isolated to Conservatives as the Liberals and NDP's both federal and provincial have also been caught with their hands in the public's pocket along with her mayors. There is so much temptation put before our fair leaders it makes me wonder why we expect them to govern on their word alone and lets face it thats the first thing that goes.
Frank
3 years ago
The debate
And now Harper says he won't stand in the way either. So I guess she's in.
Bobb999
3 years ago
Greens are now in the Debates! Yippeeiokayay
Right on. 1st Layton did back down, then Harper. The media consortium could no longer stand in the way of May with all leaders now on board.
This suggests media big wigs abandoned journalistic responsibility and allowed themselves to be led by the nose on this issue from start to finish. They bowed to the Harper/Layton threat of boycott, then bowed again to pols' retraction of the boycott threat. Two anti-democratic leaders should never have been allowed to set debate parameters to begin with. In fact, to ensure fairness in future, I agree with those who say such debates should be held under the auspices of Elections Canada, with TV networks being allowed to broadcast, but not dictate - or allow individual party leaders to dictate -
who gets to participate and who doesn't...
Our shameful, gutless Canadian media.
G West
3 years ago
Bobb
The only boycott that meant anything (ref Gilles Duceppe) was Harper's. He's the one who didn't want May in - the others, callow and feckless though they may be, were pretty clear that they wanted to debate Harper.
Harper's refusal to debate if May was included was the defining position.
I hope he has to wear it like an albatross.
May can be a harridan and she'll get to the control freak in a hurry.
In my view.
So far, this has been a very poor start for the maximum leader, don't you think?
Frank
3 years ago
Huzzah
With May and Dion in the debate the NDP has a better chance of becoming the official opposition.
Des
3 years ago
Political Savvy
Ed Deak is right on, as usual. Harper is a miseducated economist and should be grouped with those economists who fostered the USA subprime mortgage fiasco which will lead that country into an unprecedented bankruptcy volume, and which is just a variation on the Enron, Worldcon and other economic schemes designed to make the re-distribution of wealth into a vertical (instead of horizontal) pattern.
Deliver us from evil. Amen.
Des
3 years ago
Political Savvy and the Great Debate
G West has the debate story straight. I followed the news reports in sequence, and it was obvious that Harper was the first off the mark saying how unfair it would be to him to have to debate two Liberals, i.e., Dion and May.
Layton chimed in immediately, and said that if Harper was not going to grace the stage with his presence, there would be no point in Layton himself showing up since his purpose in the debate was to confront Harper in particular, not the others. (Some of his other comments since then bear out this point.)
YerMomma
3 years ago
Frank
Quote:
It means less Coke machines and more real ideas.
Thank you, any idea what those "real" ideas are?
Unquote.
Personally, no. But I asked my little boy and he said, 'Daddy, you are so right! Putting Coke and Pepsi machines in the 'Halls of Learning' will just stuff us full of caffeine and sugar - lowering our attention span and intelligence. That will make us sitting ducks for 'Corporate Disinformation.'
'Oh?' I said, curious in spite of myself, 'And what would you learn in a free and caring environment that you couldn't be taught in corporate schools?'
'You are so dumb.' He replied. 'Lemme sing you a little song to bring the point home, Mr. Dinosaur.' And he jumped up on his magical little feet, snatching a flower for microphone and beat:
'Buy Pepsi' he crooned, little eyes ablaze.
'It's a sweet road to American ways
Sugar and caffeine, gimme a break
Dull the mind to what's really at stake
Making up history, as though it were fact
Lie to the children, that the bible ain't stacked
In favor of rich men, opportunists and Jews
Pretend what we read is really the news!'
'Hey Daddy' he said, taking a chair,
'When Jesus arose, was anyone there?
eight millenia since 'history'
Still everyone sees, what they want to see
Put all your children in one big box
If the truth should enter, call it a pox
frighten the parents, and children too
ignore the truth, when lies will do
If anyone sees, pluck out their eyes'
'cuz that's the way that Reason dies'
Well, I was a little gobsmacked I admit, but couldn't help asking, 'Well, what exactly would you teach in school, oh son of mine?'
He rose from his chair, eyes leonine.
'How about the truth? Oh, Father mine?
We're one more species, a place in time.
and religious war is asinine
'my God is better than yours, they say
Let's all die the religious way.'
He turned his scornful eyes on me
the better to fake a rhapsody...
'I am the One, the truth and light
Believe in Me, and give me your might
while i steal from you your fear of night
I am the shaman rabbi and priest
cast aside reason, come to the feast
let me caress your inner beast!'
'All very well' I interjected quickly, 'But Frank was asking for 'real ideas' in education.'
He waved his little hand, as though batting an invisible fly.
'I've told you the truth and still you try
to baffle me with a neocon lie?
Teach reason and truth and what we don't know
and from the struggle, let humanity grow!
Or cling to Satan who never was
and welcome to the world of Oz'
He sat in his accustomed chair
and fixed me with a steely stare
His thoughts transfixed the very air
'When all went bad, YOU were there.'
(I apologize to you Frank, for my little boy's impetuousness you see, he has every reason to believe that his soul will be crushed before grade three.)
Frank
3 years ago
YerMomma
Thanks, apology accepted