Quick Question for you Grumpy

I was talking to someone who spent some time in Beijing this fall...someone who works for a BC company who has a subcontract with the builders of the new line (Skytrain-like) they've been building from the airport to the city.

I think Bombardier is involved in that construction - correct?

Anyway, the Bombardier engineers my correspondent was talking to told him that there had been a very large indemnity payment made to Bombardier by the Campbell government after 2001 because it reneged on a deal to develop a local Bombardier manufacturing facility...

If that's true, wouldn't a skytrain option (bad though it is) have been preferable for the Canada line?

I mean, if you're not building on grade LRT - which is clearly the gold standard - wouldn't a skytrain type option with interchangeable cars (manufactured in BC) have been a lot better than the one-off crap Campbell is building at much higher cost using Korean rolling stock?

Be interested to hear your reactions.

BTW, my correspondent says Beijing is a worse mess than ever - to the point where one almost NEVER sees the blue sky any longer....

Lower Mainland Big Enough!

Okanagan Big Enough!

South Vancouver Island Big Enough!

British Columbia is nearly a million Sq.Km., yet we jam 80% of the population into perhaps (generously) 20% of this area, and forget about the rest of the province.

Tsk!

An answer to G.

first, I believe that the airport line in Beijing is an elevated metro and not a proprietary SkyTrain system. I should note that the massive population in and around Beijing would demand metro construction as there is the mass of ridership to justify a metro's construction.

Now a bit of history.

BC Transit were in partnership with Bombardier to market SkyTrain abroad and this was probably the reason Clark did a flip-flop from LRT to SkyTrain. I believe there was a penalty clause in the agreement to ensure continued SkyTrain construction in the region.

The chap who had all the info on this has since passed away and his copious notes are in limbo, pending court action (and please I don't want to go there!!)

Now the Canada line and SkyTrain. Campbell was in a pickle, he wanted a showcase P-3 to brag about and you can't do a P-3 with a proprietary transit system like SkyTrain. Here are the four players:

Alstom - bailed when they saw the bidding to be a farce.
Siemens - who thought they could play the BC transit game, but found they couldn't.
Bombardier - who thought they were a shoe in, but got the boot.

Please note all of the above are major transit players on the world scene.
SNC/Lavalin - who went bust once trying to sell SkyTrain in Bangkok and who seemed to been given the inside edge cut-and-cover subway construction, and used it to their advantage to win. SNC/Lavalin area major engineering firm but not public transport specialists.

But here is the fun part. The conventional metro cars, that will be used by the Canada Line are built by ROTEM, a division of Hyundai, which is being built under license from Bombardier! The Canada line cars is a Bombardier European designed 'MOVIA' metro car, built under license by Hyundai!

Bombardier wins again old friend!

You think Beijing has got problems, I predict that the entire TransLink house of cards will collapse by 2014 and I will go so far to say that TransLink will be split in two. Vancouver and the SkyTrain network and South of the Fraser from Delta East.

Those in the SkyTrain network, be prepared for massive property tax increases to fund your precious metro. For the Valley, a slim glimmer of light rail.

You all heard it here first.

And Rafe, the livable regions fiasco lives on!

Thanks Grumpy!

One other small detail from my correspondent who spent some time in Beijing working on that line (and talking to the Bombardier guys I mentioned above).

They were, (and given what you've said about Bombardier being in on the deal no matter what), amused by what the Campbell government had done....

I guess one shouldn't have been surprised.

Instead of being even half right some of the time it looks like transit in BC has managed to be all wrong all of the time - and paying a king's ransom into the bargain.

Wish there were some way all this were being covered by the MSM.

Happy New Year!

Sounds like you have an

Sounds like you have an interesting position as moderator indeed.

Seems to me that the major problem with the LRSP to date is that it has no teeth. When municipailites like Abottsford decide that they just don't want to go along with the LRSP, what do they get? More and more exclusions to the ALR.

Should non-compliance with the LRSP be rewarded with ALR exclusions?

I'm not sure amalgamation is the way to go, but there needs to be some authority out there that can enforce the next incarnation of the LRSP and mete out consequences when it is not followed.

SkyTrain

Hasn't SkyTrain manufacturing ceased? The Bombardier manufacturing facility in Burnaby is long gone and that's perhaps why the train manufacturing went to Korea. Bombardier no longer feature SkyTrain in their marketing materials.

InTransitBC is the company contracted to design, build, partially finance, operate and maintain the Canada Line for a 35-year period. InTransitBC is a joint venture company owned by SNC-Lavalin, the Investment Management Corporation of BC (IMBC) and the Caisse de Depot et Placements de Quebec. TransLink will own the Line and set fares.

Actually...

...the Caisse dropped out last year, and I suspect BCIMC picked up their share with more pension funds ($80 million, up from $40 million), but I can't get anybody at BCIMC to confirm that, or even to answer me, despite two e-mails. These are MY pension funds in this loser of an investment, after all.

I was under the impression that the Skytrain plant out here was only for the cars for the Millennium line, and only as a final assembly plant, to install the cars on the bogies and to fit the seats and graphics. All the real manfacturing was to continue to take place back east.

Grumpy

You've never put it so clearly!

Sorry about the e-mail address last time - it's

- not .com as I erroneously put. I'd still like to confer with you about 10th Ave and Citizen Sam's plans for a cut'n'cover through it.

la caisse out - Mmmm

Are you sure Zalm?

They're still on the Canada Line web site:

http://www.canadaline.ca/aboutUs.asp

http://news.gc.ca/web/view/en/index.jsp?articleid=368159

You're probably right about the Millennium Line cars but they did hope to export them too. The cars may have come in as shells but they did install the entire interiors, including all electrics, glass, furnishings, etc., as well as drop them on the bogies and paint them.

Missing the point

The problem is that transit in the lower mainland is little more than a series of discrete and unplanned exercises in gamesmanship...paid for by the people and cynically manipulated by one or another political entity with little or no overall planning and/or effective intra-operability.

The point is that not only did the Bombardier plant close; they apparently took a big payoff from the Province when BC's end of the bargain wasn't held up. Which information is a commonplace in the industry and a secret to everyone else...

You can be sure the company is laughing up its sleeve at the incompetence of their former 'partners' here on the West Coast.

The pension plan angle is further evidence that this is, in the end, as Grumpy says - just another boondoggle played out on the hicks in Victoria by more sophisticated poker players in other markets.

As the economy starts to tank in '08 the chickens will start to come home to roost.

BC's end of the bargain

I wonder what that bargain was?

If you know what the present government should have done with respect to SkyTrain cars for the Canada Line please let us know.

The Burnaby plant was closed and sold long before the RAV/Canada Line was tendered, so incorporating SkyTrain cars from there would have meant reconstruction and re-tooling of the/a plant.

Do you know, GWest, what the "bargain" the NDP set up with Bombardier in respect to the construction of the manufacturing plant and sales office in Burnaby?

Bargain? SkyTrain a bargain?....NOT!

SkyTrain cars are produced at the old UTDC facility at Kingston, where the production line is kept open. There is a SkyTrain 'airport' people mover being built in Korea but Bombardier is strangely silent on the matter.

The facility in Burnaby was a fabrication plant, where the SkyTrain cars were assembled from a kit, not unlike a model car kit. This is common practice when a city builds a metro, a fab. plant soon opens to give locals a wee job.

BC certainly did not get a bargain with RAV, but the airport sure did; for a under $200 million investment, they are getting a $2.4 billion subway/metro system and unlimited zoning around stations. the same is true for all stations along RAV. This means Sky rocketing property values and profits for the owners.

The debate that was never allowed to happen was of course, LRT versus metro. Why? Simple old chums, if LRT were to win, then the Arbutus corridor would have been an natural and Vancouver's policy of subway only construction (at others expense) would crash and burn. Companies with real expertise with public transit would enter the fray, making our lot of so-called transit experts look foolish. They just could not let it happen!

The following quote is just further proof that RAV is not a P-3, for in a real P-3, the operating consortium sets fares, etc.

Me thinks, TransLink and Campbell's Liberals are trying to bury the real RAV story, by having the metro project camouflaged as a private P-3, when it is not!

No realisticman I don't _ I'm only reporting what I've heard

I do know what I've reported above here though and I know the Campbell government isn't very open and accountable about anything it has done since Campbell came to power..., which was exactly the opposite of what he promised when he was the leader of the opposition.

Moreover, I know his stand about providing complete cooperation with respect to the Basi/Virk case was disingenuous.

Why wouldn't I question that a man who keeps saying one thing, doing the opposite and running the whole government off the side of his desk would also pay off Bombardier to get them to go away so he could create another mega-project that would carry his initials?

Why wouldn't I be interested to find out that he'd reneged on deals that had been entered into which would have provided more jobs, more opportunities and a better transportation system (though far from a perfect one) for the region than the one we're getting?

The problem is my friend, Grumpy’s right and the Canada line is little more than a fancy-Dan train to the Airport…it has little or no relevance as part of an integrated and well-planned program of public transportation.

The fact of the matter is that this has nothing to do with the NDP and everything to do with the man who has been running this province for his own benefit and the good of his close personal friends ever since May of 2001. You might not like to acknowledge that but that doesn't mean that the pile of evidence isn't mounting to proportions where soon not even CanWest is going to be able to ignore it any longer.

The NDP made their own mistakes – but they are nothing compared to what this one-man show is up to.

True story........

Back in the early 90's, a trade delegation, with a Liberal PM in the lead, went on an extended sales trip to China. I believe it was called 'Team Canada.

There was rumor abound that China would be buying into the SkyTrain system and in "just a few days there would be a major announcement."

Team Canada went to Shanghai, where an announcement for a new 'airport' people mover was to be announced. since SkyTrain has morphed into this role, it was thought that it would be a go.

Well team Canada went and for 2 days waited and waited and waited................and waited.

Ah, but it was the German MAGLEV people who were smiling, as they had just signed a contract for a high-speed, state-of-the-art MAGLEV to be built. SkyTrain got the raspberry.

But more than that had happened. MAGLEV made all rail transit systems, including SkyTrain, dated, even shabby. SkyTrain could never again be compared to state-of-the-art or high-tech, it just became a expensive, seldom built, unconventional railway, which is one hell of a marketing label.

RAV reinforced the notion internationally that SkyTrain was just too expensive. This is Why Bombardier desperately wants the
Evergreen Line switched to SkyTrain and are lobbying hard for the Millennium Line extension to UBC. They have to use SkyTrain!

The public deserves to know

What was the deal that the NDP set up with Bombardier? If we taxpayers had to pay them off then we should know.

Seems as though the Burnaby plant closed due to complete lack of sales in Asia. As Grumpy points out, Shanghai went MAGLEV.

Correction

RAV= RICHMOND, Airport, Vancouver. My point being its not a dedicated route to the airport as is being implied here. The main line goes to downtown Richmond and a spur line goes to the airport. This SHOULD take a lot of the present/future traffic off Granville and Oak streets. Time will tell

Like I said R/man

This isn't about the NDP...the skytrain dates back to Bill Bennett my friend.

Bill Bennett and Grace MacCarthy.

Remember?

The Canada Line is a white elephant...a far bigger one than Skytrain.

No ideology or religion

No ideology or religion based economic/governmental system can afford democracy, as it interferes with the wealth creating demands and powers of the chosen.

Having lived under all political systems, I've often wondered who chooses the chosen and who censors the censors who censor the censors?

Ed Deak.

And don't forget

The whole skytrain 'vision', the movers and shakers were Bill Bennett and Grace McCarthy.

Surely you remember that old line:
'We'll build skytrain everywhere.'

Vanderzalm always got saddled with it...but it was never his baby..and now Campbell's making even bigger and more costly mistakes...which the Falconator is trying to sell as a vision of the future.

I’d like to know who the most recent appointments to the CN Board are?

Don't forget II

Plenty of saddling blame to go around. As I said, what deal did the NDP write if, as is claimed here above, the present government was obliged to pay a penalty to Bombardier?

In February 2001, during construction of the Millennium Line, BC Business Magazine reported;

"In negotiating with the provincial NDP, Bombardier had committed to creating an assembly plant, spending $175 million and creating 165 jobs in British Columbia as a condition for winning the Millennium Line contract."

The president and project director of RTP (Rapid Transit Project) 2000 was Lecia Stewart, her labour roots went back to Health Employees Union communications officer and married to "influential" HEU alumnus Jack Gerow. "Stewart is a political appointee - and a Glen Clark appointee at that - which means that no matter how much credit she deserves...she must be held in reserve in case we need to blame someone later".

CN board of directors

For Mr West. Just do that "Google" thing I told you about, enter "cn" which will take you to thier website and then click on "members of the board" and you'll get your answer. Glad I could help

Of course Gordon

Of course Gordon prefers to have his trains made in Korea and his ferries in Germany. I'm no skytrain fan r/man - but the 'Canada' line is a farce of a completely different colour.

How'dya like five buck transit?

When the economy tanks there are a lot of questions that Campbell won't care to answer - among them how much they paid Bombardier..

happy:
Thanks. But in future don't bother. I don't ask questions I haven't got the answer to.

You might want to check what CN calls its new 'arrangement' with BC Rail someday....

Google this

Here you go GWest, Grumpy tells us that now,

Perhaps your answer can be found there. The past NDP appointee might be pleased to tell you if our present government had to pay a penalty to Bombardier. Ask her too what the NDP allowed in the contract to require this payment.

To the man with all the answers

Perhaps you should ask the good folks of Prince Rupert what they think of CN's "new arrangement" with BC Rail, new container port and all. Now I know that doesn't compare with the NDP's efforts in the region, pumping 500 mil down the toilet into an obsolete pulp mill. Hey, wasn't that Dan Millers riding?

PacifiCats revisited

Isn't this the same story -- just say trains instead of ships -- of Mr Campbell's effect on the BC Ferries fleet -- and his zeal to get rid of the 3 new BC-built catamarans? Talked of cutting them up for scrap? Wouldn't dream of using them following the loss of Queen of the North? No idea of cause-and-effect, no sense of obligation toward the people who had worked on the ships, paid for them, loved them in fact. Waste? Phhtttt.

Thank goodness the two big beautiful BC-built Spirit Ships escaped his attentions.

Campbell and his minions should be remembered for the trail of destruction they've left behind on their road to power ... the ferries, the railway, the rivers, the tree farm lands ... more, more, and too much more.

Hey, happy?

Sounds like you might know what that "Agreement" was?

Can you tell us?

Mary mother of ...

Thank you for the reminder about the PacifiCats. I'd almost forgotten them. Another spectacular NDP scheme but at least the Millennium Line is running with passengers, isn't it? I've always wondered why the wrongly-called Fast Ferries sold for such a pathetic pittance and why nothing has been done with them. Just because they burn twice the diesel as conventional ferries can't be the only problem. Doesn't anyone in the whole world want them?

Just to refresh I went and did a quick read.

http://www.geocities.com/ferries_bc/pacificats.html

BC Mary

The Professional Marine Engineers at BC Ferries themselves did not want the Cats.
That is a FACT. They wanted exactly what the Corp. has just recieved. Good solid dependable double enders. It was you know who that ordered them built aginst the pro's advise.
And I have to say, it's just so typical that you care more about the Ferry workers, none of whom lost thier jobs, than you do about the Ferry travelling Public who paid for the lemons - because thats what they are. No one in the World would even buy them for even pennies on the dollar except the Washington Marine Group who bought them on spec as a gamble. A losing bet as it turns out.

Best ask Mr West about the "agreement" All I know is what I read in the MSM

Like I said R/man

I'm not worried about Bombardier.

I am worried about the lies and half-truths and slippery financing that got us the Canada Line fiasco.

I'd much sooner have all our ferries and rail cars being built here in BC (maybe for export to some of Bombardier's foreign customers too - and no indemnities to pay to anyone on account of broken agreements...

Maybe Campbell could have found someone to build the Convention Centre on budget too, eh? Or someone other than the road builders association to do the sea to sky upgrade...could even have been a decent train service....Hmmm?

Campbell's mistakes, half-truths and cover-ups are going to start coming out into the open one of these days...people talk. Just like those engineers in Beijing...

Just wait for the bills to start coming in for the Olympics. BTW I understand Richmond's skating oval is already over budget – exactly as I predicted here a few months ago. Surprised?

Mr West and BC Mary

In what facility would the new ferries have been built? Because as you both must be aware, and this isn't the first time I've said it, if the local shipbuilder had won the bid, the bulk of the construction was to be done in CHINA. Does that make you feel patriotic BC Mary?

Patriotism

In other words true patriots export jobs to Germany.

Time since I ever saw a right-winger complain about Cdn labour losing jobs to other countries? Still waiting for the first such post...

Sounds Good Grumpy

You got some links we can check out?

Happy, why then.........

...all those car drivers, who hate the commute into Vancouver so much, not take the B-Line express bus?

Why?

Buses don't attract ridership, especially the car driver.

Now how is one going to get to RAV? Oh, by bus, but if I don't like taking buses, why would I take a bus to RAV?. In short, I'm not going to take a bus anywhere.

RAV is going to force more people into cars and away from the transit system, because it will be seen as a major inconvenience not a convenience.

The trip by RAV maybe faster but one must also calculate the time to take a bus, transfer to RAV and finish ones journey. I would wager that the overall travel time will still be quicker by car than by taking bus and RAV.

(Hint) The Park and ride lot at Scott Road is full, but not overflowing. The free lot was abandoned for lack of cars and one can still find space at all times a day. This certainly indicates to me that when a car driver gets into his/hers car, they seldom consider using a park & ride.

TransLink's service is so bad, I will just take the car and vote against anyone who wants to force me on transit!

Just wait till transit politics start happening, the real fun is just beginning.

Frank

I'm not complaining about Germans building ferries for Canadians. Canadians build airplanes for Germans. Thats the way it works. Everyone does what they do best and we all win

R'man

They're still on the Canada Line web site:

And of course we can completely trust whatever is printed on that website, right? Like "tunnel-bored project"?

The registered corporate ownership declaration for InTransit BC LP makes no mention of the Caisse, only BCIMC - twice. As well, the list of investments that BCIMC used to print in previous years indicating the amount invested in which private placements, has been redacted for all years, and now only features the placement name, and not the amount. This is the information that I am trying to get from BCIMC.

Please bear in mind that these investments are completely unsecured. If InTransit BC LP goes down the tubes, the pension funds come up last in an effort to get something, behind all other creditors and behind employees' severance as well. Not a pretty story considering BCIMC was formed in order to be free of political interference.

And the project will go down the tubes. The partnership's only asset is the contract - it doesn't even own so much as a telephone. But the payback for the contract is scarcely sufficient to fund the project at the original quote of $1.64 billion. Now that the pricetag is $2.05 billion, there's no hope.

Or the BC government will bail them out again in order not to lose face. And in fact, I suspect this has already happened - that there is a secret agreement in place to indemnify all parties in the project against loss. I can't see a bureaucrat like Chris Trumpy throwing good pension money after bad without even consulting the investment board of the BCIMC, unless there was some kind of guarantee.

Look at BCIMC's other private placements. Most of them are real estate - if the project goes broke, the project can be sold and the bulk of the investment salvaged. What can be salvaged from a broken contract?

Snert........

.....I have supplied info for two people in Europe who are writing papers on the do's and don't of public transit and Vancouver is being held by their professors as a bad example by:

- Building with a proprietary railway.
- building transit to spur growth and not move people.
- rejecting the notion that at-grade transit tends to preform better
- Spending large sums of money on a small metro system.

There is a lot more, the real sad fact is, when politico's and bureaucrats spend large sums of money on a transit project, they want to get it right the first time, here no one cares as it is all 'free' money. So we make mistake after mistake, pretending failure is success.

In the great scheme of things, no cares about Vancouver's transit system, no one cares about Vancouver, world-class we ain't.

It is safe to say, no one has copied us, nor seems likely to in the future and that says volumes.

Oh by the way..........

........Bombardier built airplanes used in Europe are now held in high odor. More than wheels are falling off the bombardier machine.

RAV is now $2.4 billion....

.....and climbing. According to the DoRavRight folks, many costs associated with RAV are not included in quoted prices, thus the real figure is around $2.4 billion and rising. Then ad in debt servicing and that $2.4 billion will rise very quickly.

happy

Which is exactly what they tell you in Economics 115 when they introduce the concept of "comparative advantage".

However, comparative advantage should mean a province like BC should be exporting ferries.

So I could understand why BC would build ferries for landlocked Alberta, but I don't understand why a province like BC would need ferries built in Germany.

Wouldn't it be like BC supplying Germany with its chemical products?

As for Lufthansa, what BC airplanes do they buy from us? I haven't gone to their website but I would have assumed they'd be buying Airbus or Boeing...

Grumpy

Don't confuse Canadair Regioanl Jets with DeHavilland Q400 turboprops which are the airplanes you are alluding to having problems with. Bombardier has an impeccable reputation with thier avaiation product. The Q400 problems have only happened with one operator - SAS. What does that tell you. The last incident was found to be a bad component that was supplied to the operator by a vendor. Nothing to do with Bombardier. Other incidents are still under investigation.

Frank

What part don't you get. There is no facility in BC capable of building large ferries any more. The facilities here are chock full building smaller ferries and doing large ship repair. In order to build large ferries they would have to dump the repair business which is thier bread and butter. Everybody's working. Get past the past.

Frank

Lufthansa CityLine operates 63 Canadair/Bombardier CRJs.

Bombardier source products worldwide, there may well be BC products incorporated into the aircraft.

happy

The key word is "anymore" is it not?

The point is, BC should be in the business of building ferries if "comparative advantage" means anything at all. Yet, when the rubber hits the road I'm willing to bet it means nothing at all to those on the Right.

Everybody meaning roughly two-thirds of the population? As per usual. Strangely I'm still seeing a lot of people working at minimum wage jobs at gas stations, convenience stores and video stores while paying taxes to support the German ferry industry, perhaps producing low-skilled clerks is where our comparative advantage is?

Exactly, perhaps in a world of high energy costs, depleting resources and increasing pollution it might be wise to throw out the past economic model and instead start becoming a little more self-sufficient.

Building the things we need closer to where we live. However, I doubt the dinosaurs on the Right are willing to let the new reality change the way they do business. Instead, real costs will continue to be ignored.

Frank

Eurowings of Dortmund operate 17 CRJs.

Frank

Good idea Frank. Let's get on with that offshore resource and all that gas up north. Don't forget a nice refinery, lots of jobs, down here in the lower mainland so we can produce reasonably priced gasoline for workers and their families.

Gas

I thought we exported most of our gas and oil?

I take it you're in favour of Canada saying we will refine our resources here and sell the rest of you finished products?

Realisticman

If so, welcome to my side.

Realisticman

Oh, and by the way, I used to live in Port Moody. I'm used to seeing a refinery.

You're just not listening Frank

We ARE building ferries in BC. A brand new one was just delivered for the Powell River run. The sad fact is the ferry corp. needs so many new ferries because of the mistakes made in the 90's and because of employee negligence on the QOTN that we aren't capable of building them fast enough NO MATTER WHAT.

happy

I'm not listening? Actually, I am, I'm paying close attention to what you're saying but I think you're in rant mode.

And then you give one example whereas I can think of 3 really big ones not built here.

Again, do you believe in the economic term "comparative advantage"? A simple yes or no will suffice.

And Rman is right

There is a fair amount of Bombardier aircraft component construction that is done right here in BC and then shipped to Montreal

Waiting

Still waiting for answers to my questions.

Should Canada forget the selling of raw resources and instead switch to finished products as advocated by Realisticman?

Is the term "comparative advantage" no longer of any value to those on the Right?

Is it not living in the past to suggest the new reality concerning pollution and resources be ignored just as it has been in the past?

Never took Economics

Not my thing so I can't answer that one. Don't even know what the term means. Yes I gave one example, if you do a little research you will see that there is a full program of replacement ferries to be built in BC as quick as they can be. Thats a fact, not a rant my friend.

Oh and that point about cheap oil and gas just for canada

Sounds an awful lot like Trudeau's NEP R/man.
Try selling that to the Oil and Gas Industry and guys like the board members of CN who come from the Oil patch....

You also forget we're tied to NAFTA and that most exporting countries are exporting less these days...which is just another reason why oil prices are so high....Remember?

Ref: www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/business/worldbusi

BTW happy, you need to check out your facts about Bombardier and quality again. I think you'll find it's not just the Q400 and SAS with problems....

"Comparative advantage"

In a nutshell it means the Inuit are probably not going to make a go of selling sand and the Libyans probably aren't going to bet the bank on selling ice cream to Italy.

So my point is that based on geography and history we in BC are a natural when it comes to building ferries. Just as Germany has historically been a powerhouse when it comes to chemicals. I doubt they'd throw that away to instead allocate more workers and capital to renting videos.

I think that because of bad decisions we are in the process of throwing away a natural economic advantage.

And you'd be surprised

At how much government support goes to that German shipyard happy?

Have a look at what kind of shape the German industrial economy was in as little as seven years ago....

Not a level playing field by any stretch of the imagination...

Seems to work for the Germans though - as long as they can continue to get stupid Canadians to ship our jobs over there I'm sure they'll continue to subisidze the industry.

Truly sad we care so little about our own working people.
Funny that!

Mr West

Please educate me then. What and who else?

Excuse me...

The superstructure for the Spirit class super ferry's were built on river road and the hulls completed elsewhere. The two parts were joined on the Fraser river. To say we don't have the facilities to built large ferry's is a falsehood.

Campbell decided to take an economic revenge on the ship building industry, mein capatin, and ordered the new boats built overseas.

Doesn't anyone here realize that Campbell hates BC, hates everyone who lives in BC, and despises anyone who doesn't think like him. with Campbell and the Liberals, we live in evil times.

happy

No problem happy, I only raised my hand because what you were putting forward did NOT apply to the history of BC and ferries.

No one knows what the future holds but its possible that in 20 years someone may in fact suggest that BC should buy logs from Brazil because "that's the way it works" while ignoring the history of logging in this province.

You don't see sub-Saharan Africa deciding to build jumbo jets. Geography and history matter when it comes to economics and that is the essence of the concept of "comparative advantage". And when it comes to figuring the "best deal", government shouldn't look at just a simple price comparison. That's nothing more than ideology. Balanced economists would look at the return of tax dollars into general revenue and the spin-off benefits of which there is an abundance of literature on.

Quotes by and about R/Man

And just what is the difference between hauling "all that gas" from offshore and up north to be refined in the lower mainland (for the lower mainland), leaving the hinterland bereft of income and real growth; and --
just pumping the stuff raw to the States, and leaving BC bereft of income and real growth?

Or did you have in mind some equitable distribution of wealth within this fine province?

Refining the issue

We are frequently told, here in BC, when gas higher priced than the east, that one major reason is the lack of refining capacity out west. Developing any off or on shore resources and having a new refinery built in the lower mainland could ease shortcomings. The fact is we're going to be using petroleum and petroleum products for some time to come so lets do it here in BC. Market rates, not another NEP, would still mean lower prices for us in BC and give us jobs and export products.

The Shale Gas:

Government royalties from development and taxes derived from increased business and labour activities increase funding for education, infrastructure, health-care, etc.

re:excuse me

right on Grumpy ..I think of him as "The Punisher"

“a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cultures of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”

Dominionism, born out of Christian Reconstructionism, seeks to politicize faith. It has, like all fascist movements, a belief in magic along with leadership adoration and a strident call for moral and physical supremacy of a master race, in this case American Christians. It also has, like fascist movements, an ill-defined and shifting set of beliefs, some of which contradict each other. Paxton argues that the best way to understand authentic fascist movements, which he says exist in all societies, including democracies, is to focus not on what they say but on how they act, for, as he writes, some of the ideas that underlie fascist movements “remain unstated and implicit in fascist public language” and “many of them belong more to the realm of visceral feelings than to the realm of reasoned propositions.”
Chris Hedges.

full:http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071223_the_evangelical_rebellion/

But R/Man

But, that's not what you said - remember?

This "... so we can produce reasonably priced gasoline for workers and their families." is what you wrote.

Market forces as long as NAFTA is in force - are NOT going to deliver reasonably priced gasoline for 'workers and their families'. Face it, anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dream world.

In fact, given the decline in production available for export in other areas....just the opposite is true.

We should have a national energy policy and a two-price system for gas and oil - then our industry and commerce COULD have a competitive advantage.

Exactly the kind of thing you're going to see form a big part of the campaigns in the upcoming American election......as a means to protect 'their' workers.

You can be assured that pee wee Rambo will be heading down to Washington on his kness asking that Canada be given 'special' treatment once again.

We've seen it all before. If we hadn't prostrated ourselves before Nixonomics and his import duties in the early 70s we might not be in the mess we are now. Just as we've been shafted by the fact that Mulroney lost the trade negotiations with Reagan and ended up with American commerce which is still subject to American law and NOT the NAFTA adjudication protocol. That's what Emerson and Softwood was all about.

WE LOST. Period - and the Yanks will never let us forget it.

At some point we have to stand up for ourselves and act like adults.

Those who don't like it will have to suffer, for awhile, the pain that 80% of families have been experiencing since the freebooters got into power and sold their souls (like Conrad) to the American devil and Maggie Thatcher's absurd corner shopkeeper philosophy.
Time to get off our knees..

But what about the interior, north etc.?

Unprecedented prosperity in BC, and the hinterland is closing down. Kinda puts a hole in your supposition (see above).

Market Forces

GWest

Of course they will, always have. Higher production and more supply have always been responsible for more competitive pricing making more available for all at lower costs.

RickW

As I said, development of the north and the hinterland, as you describe it, will bring increased work and prosperity.

still waiting Mr West

On top of everything else you are apparently an Avaiation Industry expert to boot

"BTW happy, you need to check out your facts about Bombardier and quality again. I think you'll find it's not just the Q400 and SAS with problems...."

Tell us, are you an AME or Pilot to make such a claim? Please, once again, enlighten me. I'd love to go down this road. Unless of course, you aren't qualified?

Exactly Frank

Its History. You said it. I deal in Reality. I, as much as anybody here, wish the World was "the way it used to be" but this old Worlds been changing long before you and I came along an it's just going to keep on changing long after we're gone. Blaming it on the Government may make you feel better but it doesn't change the facts

happy

Please explain the logic behind that assertion. Are you saying that concepts like "comparative advantage" no longer apply? Or are you saying that the concept is still sound but history and geography mean nothing?

Why not? It was a government decision was it not? Or did the MSM suggest that government didn't make that decision and its only us in alternative-media land that think they did?

Perhaps, let's find out. Go back to another of my earlier questions to you :

Is it not living in the past to suggest the new reality concerning pollution and resources be ignored just as it has been in the past?

Happy

Your opinion is worthless. Translink and BC Transit studies from the 1990s have already shown that they will not be able to move Richmondites out of their cars. The second lowest transit penetration rate (Richmond) of 7% in 1999 has risen to 9% with the advent of B-line and other services, but is still less than the GVRD average of 10% and when Skytrain is built, will rise to 11%, which is still less than the 12% GVRD average that is forecast.

The RAV line will attempt to meet its ridership goals by cancelling nearly all bus service in Vancouver along Oak, Granville, Cambie, and Main, and transferring people east-west to RAV.

These planners know that for every transfer on public transit, you lose 35% of your ridership. That's why one-route buses from suburbs to destinations like downtown and other regional centres are so important to enhancing transit ridership.

Remember 99-B-line when the Millenium line went in? There were no such things as pass-ups as 8 full buses went by you. That's because from any suburb, it took a minimum of two transfers to get to UBC. Students wouldn't use it - they'd take their chances in B-lot or carpool or park in the suburbs around the Gates. It's only since they got a "free" bus pass and since student parking was banned on campus that transit use for UBC students has increased.

Time will not tell - statistics will. And regretfully, there are plenty to say that RAV will be a failure, which will require a bailout from the government.

It may not take the form you might think - I can see that when the ridership targets for RAV are not met in the first year, that Translink will then eliminate the "downtown" service for Ladner, White Rock and Tsawwassen passengers by forcing them onto RAV in Richmond - shades of the 2-transfer minimum, eh?. Then, when that doesn't work, they'll cancel other north-south services in Vancouver.

They'll do anything to funnel more passengers toward RAV, regardless of how long it will take pax to get anywhere. Anything so they don't have the embarrassment of making payments on the penalty clause they signed with InTransit BC for minimum ridership revenue of 134,000 pax per day.

And the lineups at Oak St and Knight St bridges will continue until the government grabs its balls in hand and institutes some form of road pricing.

Realisticman

I wouldn't care if they built 5 refineries next to Campbell's house in Point Grey. I wouldn't care if they built them along the UBC bus route. However, if we look at gas prices in places with refineries compared to cities without them there doesn't seem to be much difference.

For example, the price of gas in Saint John NB, next to Irving Oil's refinery is higher than it is in the Fraser Valley.

Zalm.......

......I have read that one can lose upwards of 70% of potential ridership per transfer. Also, there is a rumour that direct service from south Surrey/Delta will cease 6 months prior to RAV's opening and a ghost service will operate, where transit customers must transfer from 600 series routes and 300 series routes onto 620 and a new express bus service.

TransLink's officials are getting worried about this and are pressing 'Metro' Vancouver to bring in road pricing, to force motorists onto the transit system.

As the Chinese say: "We will be living in interesting times."

No they won't R/Man

We are barred from extending price advantages to Canadian customers for our production that are not also offered - mutatis mutandis - to our American 'partners' in NAFTA.

The Americans, for their part, can - and have - used state and national regulation and tariff and non-tariff barriers outside of the dispute settlement mechanisms to restrict our access to their markets and to protect their own industries... Where have you been for the last 20 years?

The deal ties Canadian hands and leaves the Americans free to do with us pretty much as they like.

IT is NOT free trade by any stretch of the imagination and there is no way Canadian consumers are going to get any relief by way of price reductions for gasoline.

Period. This will never create an advantage for Canadian manufacturers or consumers with respect to our main customers - the Americans.

Just for you happy:

The US Federal Avaiation Authority (FAA) and Canadian aviation regulators have ordered the Canada-based regional jet maker Bombardier to fix flap malfunctions on its CRJ100 and CRJ200 aircraft operated by regional airlines. The fix involves replacing a part that lowers the wing flap.
Regulators have also directed Bombardier to put in place training and operational procedures to prepare crews for possible flap failures. The FAA directive covers 684 airplanes presently in service with US airlines, while Transport Canada's order affects 87 jets.
SkyWest said on 29 August that it had fixed the wing-flap problem on all of its 133 Bombardier CRJ 200 aircraft, but modified its statement on 31 August to say that modifications had been made to only about 20 per cent of its regional jets.

Like I said, I don't ask questions - or make statements, that I can't back up.

Have a look at All Nippon Airways as well as SAS on the Q 400s as well.

Quote:As I said, development

"Development" of the north? You call digging a mine shaft or felling a tree "development"? No, no, no (imagine this a 1000 times). Development is when RESIDUALS stay in the region, to be used for diversification. Not taxes, not wages -- PROFITS! As it is under the current structure, profits go to Howe St. (and points south - maybe a little east). Only the shaft remains in the interior (if you catch my drift). If this weren't so, then why, after 150 years of resource extraction, is the interior slowly strangling?

Try again -- and this time come up with something original, instead of the verbatim from the classical economists' version of the Little Red Book.........

then answer these

This is nothing. Many commercial aircraft, due to thier complexity have ongoing issues that are worked through regularly. That doesn't make them a failure. If you look you can find hundreds of examples with Boeing and Airbus just like you did with Bombardier. Does that mean they are unsafe?

Is the fleet grounded because of this flap issue? Why are they still rolling off the producton line?

The ANA problem happened how many years ago? How many times? Once?

Quote:IT is NOT free trade

The Americans treat Canada in just about the same way R/Man would have us treat the north of our own country. Dig it up, cut it down, and ship it out.......

Frank

Just happens to be a fact, Frank and GWest.

The extent to which the availability of supplies from other regions affects the wholesale price of gasoline depends on the refining capacity and utilization rates of each individual region. Regions with very tight supply conditions (high utilization rates and limited access to supply from other regions) are quite vulnerable to short term price spikes. When supplies are tight, substantial price increases are sometimes necessary to prevent product shortages.

http://www.fuelfocus.nrcan.gc.ca/reports/2005-07/understanding/wholesale_prices_e.cfm

Much of the gasoline in the Vancouver market is brought in from as far away as the prairies by smelly diesel trucks. A new refinery would bring work, increase industrial activity, reduce the area to price-spikes at times of shortages and provide products for export. Gas in the Fraser Valley is cheaper since here are no Metro Vancouver (GVRD) taxes. New Brunswick prices are high because of government intervention in the marketplace, which has - once again - proved futile and counter-productive.

RickW

What do you suggest, a manufacturing facility or something? Come up with a good business plan and we'll find the start-up money. Give me some ideas.

happy

I avoid Bombardier planes like the plague...and I'm not alone in that.

You make the flight choices you feel safe and happy with - but don't try and pretend that Bombardier has a pristine safety and reliability record...it doesn't and the documentation bears this out.

R/man:
You really don't have a leg to stand on in the debate about cheaper gasoline prices do you?

It's not going to happen - the price of crude just broke $100.00 - the carnage will continue and we'll continue selling our future for a mess of pottage. At least the Americans are beginning to recognize the costs that nonsensical corporate globalization have inflicted on their working and middle class people.

As usual Canadians are slower to wake up….

GWet

Reading your post it seems clear that you a quite happy to rely on the US and the Alberta, and beyond, refineries for our gasoline supply. OK.

Airworthiness Circulars, Directives, Alerts as well as continual improvements and innovations via STCs (Supplemental Type Certs.) affect and apply to all aircraft. Some people used to avoid the DC10s, remember the cargo doors? Some avoided the first A320s, remember the fly-by-wire into the woods? Some avoid the Metroliners. The CRJs are good aircraft and you're statistically far safer flying than doing almost anything else.

I don't get it

Mr West,for such a proud Canadian flag waver such as yourself,your bias confuses me. Here we have 100% Canadian concieved, designed, engineered and built, state of the art, World market leading (Hell, they invented the market!)products that employ thousands of Canadians across the Country including the Lower Mainland.

The sinister problems you embellish are normal issues that crop up in all Commercial Aircraft Manufacturers. They are investigated, modified or perhaps different Maintenece procedures are developed. That is the case withe the CRJ flaps.

As you read this there are thousands of passengers in Bobardier aircraft in the air around the world right now. If there was the slightest doubt about Bombardiers safety record, as you suggest, the Fleet would be grounded.Period.I take it you disagree with Transport Canada and the FAA Airworthiness Inspectors too. If you don't want to fly on them, thats up to you. I assume you don't travel much as Bombardier products are often the ONLY way to get there.

Is it perhaps you feel this way because Bombardier>guilty by association Skytrain>guilty by accociation Socred / Liberals?

Not at all, R/Man

I don't care where the damn stuff if refined (although I like the suggestion of putting a refinery in Gordon’s back yard – perhaps he’d get some of the effluent the next time a back-hoe severs one of Kinder-Morgan’s rusting pipelines) - it's simply absurd to suggest that the miniscule savings achieved will make any real difference for consumers who have little enough transit choices in the lower mainland anyway.

The point is that your suggestion was absurd given the other aspects of a complex situation over which we have surrendered effective control of our own destiny..(not to mention the fire-sale royalty structure our Campbell has put in place for resource extraction).

I'm not looking to the US or Alberta for anything. In fact, I'd be more than happy if we shut the damn taps off now and learned to live according to our own wits, needs and resources. If you hadn’t gathered already, I think we do need a National Energy Policy to get the poltroons in check again and remind them that people are more important than profits and that we do have the ability to be something in our own right and not just as appendages of a corrupt American Empire.

As for your fascination with flying - that's not much of a surprise and old news for anyone who has read many of your offerings.

You know perfectly well what I think of the unnecessary costs business and ill-planned recreational travel imposes on the vase majority of people who don't, can't and wouldn't want to live the life of an international polluter (read jet-setter). You may feel safe enough flying around at 35,000 feet - the world beneath your feet isn't.

By the way, I happen to know someone who spent a good deal of his career as an aircraft technician and he assures me that the standards WERE much more closely adhered to, the technical records and the work itself was much more closely monitored 20 years ago than is the case now. In a good many cases, the work is subbed out to people who are neither trained, supervised nor rewarded appropriately for their work….

So don't rest TOO easy next time you're jetting across one ocean or another....

errata

that's 'vast' majority - not vase majority, sorry
And Happy New Year R/man. It's gonna be a doozie.

Will you fly on these?

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - China unveiled its first domestically developed regional aircraft on Friday, moving a step closer to its goal of becoming an aviation giant and challenging the dominance of Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Airbus.

The white 90-seat ARJ21-700 jet with three curved blue stripes on the fuselage, named "Xiang Feng" or "Flying Phoenix", was displayed to a crowd of government dignitaries and industry officials at the assembly plant in Shanghai where it will be produced.

GWest

I get it. No more nothing. Just shut it all down. Back to the jungle.

MR WEST!!

Sir, I have just read with utter shock this comment from your last post

"By the way, I happen to know someone who spent a good deal of his career as an aircraft technician and he assures me that the standards WERE much more closely adhered to, the technical records and the work itself was much more closely monitored 20 years ago than is the case now. In a good many cases, the work is subbed out to people who are neither trained, supervised nor rewarded appropriately for their work…."

Mr West, these allegations are extremely serious. If Transport Canada knew of any operator where the Maintenance work was being performed by untrained / supervised mechanics they would have thier Operating Certificate revoked immediately.

You, or your friend must immediately report what you know to Transport Canada. They have an anonomous tip line at their website. I know you will do the right thing as, after all, how would you be able to live with yourself in the event of a tragic crash knowing what YOU KNOW!

Ps was your buddy blue team or red?

GWest

happy is right West. There are both legal and moral obligations that you now have. A close member of my family has to fly this week. Please assure us that you will do the right thing.

R'man

I doubt it. Even in this great climate, we're still flaring 15% of all the gas we have in BC. Flared gas accumulates no royalties. Companies are high-grading as they've always done. They want a publicly-funded pipeline to get their gas to market, and can't be bothered to come up with innovative storage and transport solutions themselves. As a result, the O&G industry is one of BC's biggest point-source polluters because it's too lazy or cheap to figure out an alternative.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/Editorials/2007/09/Editorial1721/

And that's why government regulation exists. Because some people simply won't do the right thing without it. It isn't a capitalist/communist thing - the same people who rip off the capitalist system are the same people who profit under the communist system and give both a bad name. I wish there was a way of weeding those kind of people out at birth....

R/Man

Hardly!

'Back to the jungle'...those are your words, not mine.

I'd say 80% of the families struggling to make a go of things, pay their bills, save for a house, get their kids looked after adequately and pay for their educations might be able to tell you a good deal about the jungle they're living in right now. A jungle the global economic model has a great deal to do with...

happy,
My friend no longer works in the industry - the declining standards had a lot to do with why he left to become a Zen Buddhist monk.

I'd say that's neither blue nor red - And I'd suggest Transport Canada has already had a plethora of complaints. They do like to keep up appearances though -

Much like the food inspection profession - an increasingly great deal of the inspection accountability and responsibility is being shunted off to the corporate sector themselves; which news, if you're really as much of a technical expert as you say you are, won't be 'news' to you.

BTW - are you following the most recent example of the David Hahn saga on the Northern route?

Reckon those will be very satisfied customers too?

"Mr" West no longer

You have so far in the space of this thread smeared Bombardier, respected worldwide for thier aircraft, as is shown by the number of orders on the books. Then you moved on to the Canadian aircraft Maintenance industry, implying that Transport Canada licenced Aircraft Maintenence Engineers, the people who maintain and more importantly, are the only people Certified with the resposibility of declaring an aircraft Airworthy, as getting "lax" in thier standards. Not to be outdone, you then insinuate this all goes on with the full knowledge of Transport Canada Airworthiness Inspectors.

One problem with your opinions - Canada's Aviation Safety Records are among the highest in the world. Considering the geography and climate this is even more impressive. We are acknowledged worldwide for our Aviation technology and experience and the world comes to Canada to purchase these things.

Who's next on the smear list west. Haper or Gordo

and how convenient

the only person alive who could have backed up your "secret information" has left to become a Buddhist monk...

are you certain he wasn't kidnapped the Global Airline Indusrty to prevent him from going public?

a Buddhist monk...

He's probably on a taxpayer funded stress-leave research-grant-sabatical, chilling-out smoking dope on a beach in Thailand.

Let me quote something for you

This is no secret...here's a couple of paras from David King, Principal Inspector of Air Accidents (Engineering)
Air Accidents Investigation Branch
United Kingdom (from a conference presentation in 2001)

The June edition of the RAeS Journal Aerospace stated that the number of 'Maintenance Concern' accidents is on the increase and that over the preceding 10 years whilst the number of flights had increased by 55% the number of 'Maintenance Concern' accidents had increased by 100%. Human factor related causes to accidents are not restricted to the flight-deck. I have heard the argument that it is only in the cockpit that actions and results are closely linked in 'real time' and consequently human factors are of little or no consequence elsewhere. If a mechanic completes a task operating alone and is delegated the authority to 'sign off' the work, against a background of time pressure with minimum resources of tooling and supplies, and in a physically uncomfortable environment he is unlikely to give of his best. If the results of his work then go without functional or
independent inspection until the aircraft is airborne, any error can result in an in-flight incident or worse. Does it matter that his actions and the final consequences are separated in time by hours, even days, if in that intervening period there was no attempt or opportunity to discover the mistake? Time was real enough throughout the task for the individual and only a sterile period separates cause and effect.

This is no mystery and my friend is far from the first to leave the industry for one where his skills, dedication and attention to detail are more appreciated.

Grumpy and GWest – Polluted discussion

You two are so concerned with crushing Skytrain and Bombardier, that you have left the real topic regarding long term planning in the region.

I am sorry Grumpy; your attacks on Skytrain lead me to remind you that Skytrain is not a real person. Skytrain is not making decisions that lead to further urban sprawl.

You don’t accept the numbers that Translink puts forward about ridership? Fine, that is ok. However, then go out a do a qualitative analysis of Skytrain ridership. Watch how many people are forced to stand or wait for the next train during the two busy rush hours. Or consider this while the train is pack by those attending concerts or football/hockey games, if Skytrain did not exist, would many of these fans be taking the bus from Surrey/New West/Burnaby. I doubt it. I know I would not.

And GWest, your statement that you avoid “Bombardier” like a plague is also extreme. Do you never take Skytrain while in Vancouver because it is the “plague”? Or do you drive everywhere even if Skytrain is an option? If you had to buy a snowmobile, it would be from the American or Japanese companies?

Yeah, I can disclose a few token shares in Bombardier - about $5000 worth. I bought them when Bombardier was proposing JetTrain technology for North America. I really liked how a Canadian company was offering an alternative to the impacts of air travel and highway construction. Too bad it was killed by Jeb Bush in Florida, and largely ignored by the Federal politicians here. I bought the shares because I wanted to support a Canadian company that was looking into transportation alternatives.

Bombardier is far from a perfect company. They make mistakes and have cost us from time to time. But they are a Canadian company, and I generally prefer going with “Made in Canada” solutions, especially when the differences of going with other options are minor at best.

GWest and Grumpy… you guys do a real good job of clouding the real issues here regarding urban sprawl. This thread has been “polluted”.

Moat

My statements were perfectly clear.

When I'm in Vancouver I take whatever mass transit is available and appropriate. I fly very very little.

If you'd read my writing a little more carefully you might have discerned that I DON'T agree with the conclusion that Grumpy comes down to.

I think the Canada Line would have been more sensibly constructed (if LRT wasn't going to be the chosen option) as an extension of skytrain using the existing technology and building on Bombardier's experience and plant - rather than paying them off to go away.

The irony is, of course, that they'll probably be back in the market in the future anyway - which is fine for them and not so great for the taxpayer - given what's already happened.

As to the other point, I'm more inclined toward increasing regionalization and consolidation - the advantages of which zalm has very nicely summarized - obviating any necessity for me to add much to it.

I disagree with your point about pollution.

If you have something germane to say - say it. You may even get the editors imprimatur and find your words in the 'best comments' category.

What I don't like is governments paying corporations to do (or not to do as the case may be) the right thing...

Scraps from a little barrel

from a far away land and years ago. West, you should be ashamed! Modern technology permits current information access.

1 day ago

GENEVA (AP) — Last year was one of the safest in aviation history, with the lowest number of crashes in 44 years, an independent watchdog said Wednesday.

There were 136 serious accidents in 2007, down from 164 crashes the previous year, the Aircraft Crashes Record Office said.

final comment west

That lengthy seven year old report wasn't nessacery. It could have been condensed down to one phrase "Human Factors"

This was recognized after the Aloha "737 convertible" accident and Human Factors Training has since been mandated by Transport Canada as Mandatory for all Aircraft Engineers on a recurrent basis.

So don't worry west,I give you my personal gaurantee you can travel on a Canadian maintained airplane without worry. Safer than a Volvo

The price of gas

So the reason the people living next to a refinery in New Brunswick pay more for gas than those in the Fraser Valley is because of gov't "interference" in the market? "Interference" that wouldn't happen here too I assume? What about Houston Texas? They have oodles of refineries nearby as well as low taxes and yet the price of a gallon of gas is only about 0.5% cheaper than it is in the US northeast.

You're beating a dead horse Realisticman, I'm not against building refineries here, I just don't think it would make any difference as to what we pay for gas. No matter what we're subject to the world price and to the same level of taxation. If anyone thinks we could have 50 cent a litre gas if we built 20 refineries in Vancouver is dreaming. As you said to RickW, show me the plan to halve the price of gas by building refineries and if it makes sense I'm sure we'll all be happy to support it.

happy

Off-topic, but do you work in the aviation industry? I only ask because many of us are open about our occupations although I have no idea what Realisticman does.

Frank

I'm familiar with it

Brains fall out when you say "PacifiCat!"

When happy wrote the following rebuttal, it summarized something which was deliberately withheld from the PacifiCats. Like the Marine Engineers, I would have preferred to see BC shipyards building something a little more stodgy at the time. But catamarans were being built around the world, for good reasons. So why not also in B.C.?

And especially why not with the kind of run-in that "happy" talks about here? It's unconvincing that Washington Marine Group knowingly bought such lemons because they were lemons (I think that's what you said).

But B.C.'s desperation-politics get so polarized and adversarial, never mind the costs: Rightwing attacks Lefties, Your Politicians vs The Other Politicians. It's never all of us getting the job done together.

So the beat goes on, "happy", just as you say ... with B.C. always paying double or triple the price for that kind of stupidity. You just couldn't stand it, could you, if ever you saw those PacifiCats carrying BC Ferries logos and traffic along the BC coast. Sheesh.

It would've been so easy ... just like you say about innovations in aircraft, "happy":

Many commercial aircraft, due to thier [sic] complexity have ongoing issues that are worked through regularly. That doesn't make them a failure.

So very, very true.

BC Mary

The Cats were a design failure. Too heavy and underpowered. They burn too much fuel. Thats not very enviromental is it. The engines were overstessed. This was all known before the first piece of aluminum was cut. No amount of getting emotional about it can change those facts.

No amount of modifications, such as they do on aircraft was possible here. They don't replace the engines on airplanes with a different design and they couldn't on the cats either. You may as well start from scratch. Technical Facts BC Mary, not Ideology.

I've heard about a half dozen different ideas for proposed ever since WMG bought them, everything from fast Troop carrying craft for the US Military to Floating Casinos off the Eastern coast of the US. Nothing. Yes BC Mary, they are lemons. Well built lemons but...

G West re: Blog Pollution

I stand by my comment that this thread has been polluted. Little discussion regarding the divide between the levels of government has taken place, nor has there been in depth discussion regarding environmental impacts.

Oh, and BTW, I clicked on the “best comment” option. All there was for best comments were two long winded “Skytrain rants” by Grumpy and a short response by happy. I have read Grumpy’s rants before in other Tyee stories. Same old, same old. If that is all that could be selected for the “best comments” category, then I stand by assertion that this thread has become polluted.

It is too bad that you were drawn into a discussion about aviation industry safety when really this is barely even related to what the article is about. And really, comparing the safety of plane models can only be done by comparing passenger flying hours in relation to incidence of death and injury. More people die in Fords than Suzukis in North America, but that is because Ford is the bigger manufacture of automobiles. You have to compare the ownership rates, distances traveled, and survivor rates in specific types of crashes. Just because one vehicle has more maintenance issues than another does not mean that it is necessarily unsafe.

GWest, I generally enjoy reading your posts and agree with many of your perspectives. This time you got sidetracked.

Mr. Moat: pollution is as pollution does.

So SkyTrain is crowded, what is the headway? Has the system gone down (which is does all to regularly)? Is TransLink offering the capacity as advertised?

To simply things, if one offers a 15 minute service, with a maximum capacity (all seats filled and standing @ 4 persons per sq. metre) of 1,000 persons per hour per direction and 1,000 people use the system, everyone gets om board.

But.... If one train doesn't run and 2,000 people want to use the system; chaos.

Funny Moat, very few transit authorities have bought into SkyTrain (3) and the owners of the proprietary mini-metro have never let SkyTrain compete against LRT, makes me suspicious.

SkyTrain works, it trundles back and forth but remember this, it costs 60% more to operate than the Calgary LRT system (which carries more customers) and it costs a whole lot more to build, which makes it a Canadian made museum piece.

SkyTrain is obsolete and has been seen to be obsolete by transit planners around the world and only seems to be built when the Canadian government subsidizes construction like in Korea and at JFK.

As for best comments old chum, that's someone elses decisions not mine.

Me thinks Moat & Happy are just shills for the SkyTrain/Bombardier Lobby.

So Moat, why don't other cities build with SkyTrain? Could it be it is just not economic? Could it be LRT does a better job for less money? Could it be that TransLink is just very economic with the truth? Could it be..........

Mr. Moat: pollution is as pollution does.

So SkyTrain is crowded, what is the headway? Has the system gone down (which is does all to regularly)? Is TransLink offering the capacity as advertised?

To simply things, if one offers a 15 minute service, with a maximum capacity (all seats filled and standing @ 4 persons per sq. metre) of 1,000 persons per hour per direction and 1,000 people use the system, everyone gets om board.

But.... If one train doesn't run and 2,000 people want to use the system; chaos.

Funny Moat, very few transit authorities have bought into SkyTrain (3) and the owners of the proprietary mini-metro have never let SkyTrain compete against LRT, makes me suspicious.

SkyTrain works, it trundles back and forth but remember this, it costs 60% more to operate than the Calgary LRT system (which carries more customers) and it costs a whole lot more to build, which makes it a Canadian made museum piece.

SkyTrain is obsolete and has been seen to be obsolete by transit planners around the world and only seems to be built when the Canadian government subsidizes construction like in Korea and at JFK.

As for best comments old chum, that's someone elses decisions not mine.

Me thinks Moat & Happy are just shills for the SkyTrain/Bombardier Lobby.

So Moat, why don't other cities build with SkyTrain? Could it be it is just not economic? Could it be LRT does a better job for less money? Could it be that TransLink is just very economic with the truth? Could it be..........

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED.]

.
Just payin' attention to one of the naval architects who worked on them, that's all, hap.

Save your "emotional" jibes for one of the guys. And your "ideology" for a needy political friend.

Fact is: you'd burn to a crisp to see those PacifiCats in service. Couldn't be allowed. Which is my point ...

For the purposes of this particular City of Vancouver transit discussion, what I'm saying is that the destructive political PacifiCat dynamics are also recognizable in the way Vancouver transit planning is being messed up. Therefore the end results will probably be similar.

Maybe it's time to grow up and take some longterm responsibility.

Frank

Proofreader is one of things I do, around here. I wasn't telling RickW about an oil refinery and I wasn't suggesting a 50%, or any percent, reduction in gas costs. responding to his complaint that the hinterlands are not booming I was reiterating;

Lack of Refineries in the news again yesterday:

http://www.oilweek.com/articles.asp?ID=508

R/man

I never noticed that...that you're a proofreader round here.

You might want to have a look at your opening sentence in the post just above.

And you might want to consult this study on the royalty rates in Alberta before you make any decisions about why Canada is an expensive place in which to produce oil.

Proofread this for a while:

http://www.ualberta.ca/PARKLAND/research/studies/OilRoyaltyReport(web).pdf

Straighten yourself out

You should stay away from those CCPA weirdos. They'd walk right past a diamond if they were looking for a ruby, their agenda is so clearly defined. Anyway, Alberta's higher royalty rates only are good news for Texas and BC. The choices are clear: more refineries in BC, jobs and more regular supply with less wasteful transportation costs and the export capability. Or, higher cost for fuel, wasteful smelly trucks wearing on our roads due to long distance supply routes, dependence on out-of-province and US suppliers. Pick one.

The Real Question

Can Huckerbee find Canada on a map?

I'd really rather leave this aircraft thing

But, since you insist - I'll post a small selection from the Canadian Aviation Maintenance Council. I find their comments a little more relevant than either happy's or the R/man's and I hope Moat will bear with me for this one more small bit of old business:

The major challenge facing this sector is its aging work force. The following factors complicate efforts to address this problem:
• challenges in recruiting youth into the work force, primarily due to the negative image of the sector, attributed to recent political and economic events, and to past efforts by the educational sector to de-emphasize trade occupations in general; and
• challenges in assessing the skills and experience of workers coming into the industry from other occupations or from foreign countries.

I hope everyone is completely comfortable every time they climb into an aircraft...knowing that happy guarantees their safety and comfort must be a real weight off their minds.

That's Huckabee my friend

Now what were you saying about being a proofreader?

What are you talking about?

The study was written by the Parkland Institute at the University of Alberta.

Did you even bother to open the pdf?

Some proofreader!

If you had, you might have picked up on this quote:
Alberta is currently the lowest tax
and royalty jurisdiction in North America
and one of the lowest in the world.

For crying out loud BCMary

Why do you insist on prolonging this festering wound? With apologies to Moat, here is more for BCMary to digest. You're right, they were building them in other parts of the world. Crucial differences: Those ones that worked all had gas turbine propulsion systems. This was originally proposed for the Cats too as the system of choice, but when costs started ballooning after the Project actually started, because Glen had a habit of using too much "optimism" in his figgerin', the (fatal) decision was made to switch to cheaper diesels. That decision came from the Premiers office BCMary, over the heads of the Engineers.

Not helping matters is the fact that there is way more logs and driftwood in the local waters than there was in other locations. Mediterranean for example. This doesn't bother non fast ferries as they just push through everything but the cats were prone to sucking this stuff into their waterjet intakes due to the design. The second a chunk of wood big enough went in the drive broke instantly.

Theres more BCMary but Moats right, please stop. You're trying to make this personal and it isn't

No, I wasn't ...

I was trying -- admittedly without much success -- to demonstrate that dragging politics into a technical problem is a surefire way to ruin any hope of a resolution.

And btw, I didn't make an "offensive comment directed at another commenter" ... what I said was very similar to the foregoing paragraph. I hope you weren't offended by what you thought might be behind the censor's offensive comment.

I don't know what's going on here, but I think I'll pick up my marbles and head for home.

Realisticman

The first quote was what you said earlier. What is "reasonable priced gasoline" in your opinion?

In your second quote you dropped the reasonable priced gasoline thing. Which is fine, the evidence of pretty much everywhere in North America says there is no such support for that argument anyway.

Now as to the things in your second quote that you deem worthwhile, I would say it looks to me that refineries are something we should be building in the places RickW would support. No?

sorry Moat

west, when are you going to stop insulting the people who maintain airplanes in this country? Their Integrity and Commitment to Safety is beyond question. Know any Pilots? Maybe you should ask them what they think

Seen the huge new BCIT Aerospace campus that just opened up across the road from Burkeville? Don't worry about the future of the Industry west. Its in good hands

happy

You seem to be blaming hte government for the fast ferries, you may want to remember your own quote :

And remember, Campbell did indeed make the decision not to build the new ferries here regardless of what you may have heard in the MSM. It was a political decision. Not blaming it on the government may allow one to sleep better at night but it would be lying to yourself.

Sucking Diesels

BC Mary

If only you could have got this wise dictum to Glen way back then.

Building them here would

Building them here would have taken longer. Way longer. With no gaurantees.

The local shipyards are fully employeed and working, much of the work for BC Ferries. Nobody is not working because the ferries were'nt built here.

BC Ferries is desperate for replacement vessels as fast as possible. The local yards are handling what they are capable of

I-just-don't-see-the-problem

My dog is demanding attention. happy trails

happy

Strange, cause I could have sworn I heard the shipyard people complaining about not getting the work back then. Guess they didn't realize they couldn't have handled it unlike they always had before.

Realisticman

And too bad you couldn't have asked Gordon not to repeat Glen's mistake.

I'm not insulting them at all.

[INFLAMMATORY BACK-HANDED INSULT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

No matter how dedicated and committed these people are (and I know several of them) or where they get their fancy dan education - the pressure of profits before everything else is taking a toll.

You're no more convincing or relevant on aircraft maintenance than you are on ferry construction - or the value of a decent workforce to a civilized nation.

Last words from me on the subject.

No1important........

.......illustrates my position on forced transfers, which is the Achilles heel of RAV.

Let us summarize

You've gone from knowing one aircraft technician who, owing to the relentless drive to maximize Corporate profits above safety, was so traumatized he dropped out of society to become a monk.

Now you "know several" people working in the Industry, fancy dan educations and all.

And I'm the one who's not relevant on the subject?

Tell us, are you at liberty to say what company they work for?
Are they AME's? If so, what Category?

Will any future postings on this subject include a big rabbit?

I really shouldn't...

...but I will.

I had a coworker at one of the old hospitals who came to us from PWA/CPAir in about 1991 after he quit being an AME for them. He was a particular and ornery sort, but I guess he had a reason.

For the four years he worked for them, he complained time and again about being asked to double-sign for work he hadn't checked, to have his work go unchecked, and then have to put the clipboard on his bosses desk for him to sign in the morning while the plane was moved to the ramp for the next flight....

He said it was totally unlike what he had been taught in school in the mid-80s, where process and checklists were everything. He said he never had trouble getting spare parts, and nobody would hold him to account if he couldn't get something ready because the parts weren't there, so he wasn't under any real stress that bad quality work was going back out the hangar door from his workbench, but he couldn't say the same about others. He always used to grump about the older AMEs who he said disdained checklists and all the other safety checks that he was taught to follow like religion.

And really, happy, even in my own field of stationary engineering and power generation, rules get broken all the time. Most of the time, the idiots who break the rules get away with it, and sometimes it catches the dedicated guy on the following shift with a problem he can't solve any more because it's gone on too long.

On one of my first shifts at a local hospital cogen facility, a power bump took out the boilers and turbines in the middle of the night, and load was so high the boilers emptied in seconds. I came on shift about two hours later to the sight of three guys trying to keep two hot boilers from emptying under high load, while they heated up two stone-cold boilers that were supposed to be on "hot standby". The shift-in-charge hadn't heated them up once during his shift - probably just slept the night away. Worst of all, he tried to say "Yes, I heated them up" when everyone including the chief knew that the boiler management system keeps computerized logs of every event for weeks and weeks.

So "utter shock" my ass. Your high and mighty attitude to GWest is uncalled for. Every industry has its share of Gomers and shirkers, and some of them make it up into management in the hopes that they'll do less damage there. And some of those become politicians.

happy

So to summarize,

1. The concept of "comparative advantage" is history.

2. Government cannot be blamed for their decisions if those governments are to the right of the NDP.

3. BC shipyards couldn't have done the job of building new ferries and therefore things they say to the contrary, like this,

http://www.bcshipyardworkers.com/

should be ignored because only shy Tyee commenters know the truth.

4. You can personally guarantee the safety of all airplanes.

5. You live in "reality"

A pair of quotes, one is from Jackie Miller (president of the B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers Union) and the other is from "happy". See if you can tell who is the author of each quote.

"This move will cost Canadians 2,000 jobs and half-a-billion dollars in investment. With the potential for a further 19 ships to be constructed over the next 15 years, these figures will escalate exponentially with the resultant loss of thousands more jobs and billions of taxpayer dollars," she wrote.

And just for laughs, here's a quote from North Vancouver Mayor Barbara Sharp who says

"It's not that they're awarding the bid. It's just they want the opportunity to put the bid in – which is just shocking that they won't allow them to do that," says Sharp.

Article from the Vancouver Sun

http://www.pbase.com/image/43421096

So, even that work would have gone offshore without the federal government giving taxpayer money to BC Ferries so as to keep the work in Canada.

and so on

Apparently those shipbuilders just don't agree that they couldn't have done the job.

Full article here

http://www.bcshipyardworkers.com/news/aug25_06.html

Moat

Metro Vancouver has to global budget of about $4.4 billion (all 21 municipalities totalled). There's not much we can do to make savings or spend more wisely on that total - we all need sewer, water, fire and police protection, building code review, parks and rec, etc. And when we need to spend a significant amount, like $600 million on the reservoirs tie-in and upgrade, we get a vote on it. Sometimes the vote isn't quite fair as it's tied to lots of other unpopular empire-building projects that city planners want to get done, like in 2005 when Vancouver tied the Olympics funds to an increase in police services, but at least we get a vote. Even on schools, for which I don't have budget figures available, we get to vote, despite little control over conditions or outcomes.

But Translink has a budget of more than $850 million, including well over $300 million in capital expenditures per year, and commitments to more than $5 billion of capital expenditures (not including interest) over the last 3 years.

And what vote did we get? We who, in many cases, appear to know more than the mayors and planners who spend more time blowing their own horns and edifice-building than planning for proper and efficient growth?

With the exception of the airport, what sector of the local economy do we have less control over? Remember, this is all our own infrastructure, paid for with our own tax dollars. Shouldn't we have a say? And when we don't get one, where do you think all the heat and light on the bulletin boards and websites ought to be?

If you aren't concerned about the commitments this unelected board of (now handpicked) flunkies who are largely beholden to the development and trucking industry has opened your wallet to, then I can only shake my head in sorrow at your ostrich imitation.

And you can blame me for that. I didn't put the links in because this is very old ground. We've brought up these statistics which are from Translink's own surveys and reports time and again on old threads like
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/03/13/TransLinkSmackdown/
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/07/13/NoFares5/
http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/05/30/RAVCambie/
http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/11/20/TunnelStrike/

and especially the Translink reports from September 2000
http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/board_files/meet_agenda_min/2000/sep20-00agenda.pdf
...and other years. I know you know about these, because you've been a frequent contributor on these self-same threads.

Cont'd

Moat 2

Translink is a big file. I don't blame everybody for not understanding it. But you have no business castigating those of us who have spent the years learning about it (in my own case to save my own property from damage by Translink construction) simply because you don't like our conclusions or attitude.

In fact, frankly, your own attitude sucks. Your own comments on threads indicate you think Skytrain is a great device for moving people around, and you can't see why we all shouldn't be pleased to be moved around that way? Sure it's great for moving a few people around, and I'd like a mansion and a Cadillac and a Buck Rogers jetpack too, but I've faced reality - it ain't gonna happen because it's too expensive. If you don't understand costs and budgets, don't blame us.

Once more, with feeling. Our three Skytrain lines will use a combined capital of $6 billion, and more than 40% of Translink's annual operating budget every year to move 7% of total commuters. The other 93% of commuters are poorly served by Translink's remaining 50+% of budget. And provincial taxpayers who've never even seen Vancouver have kicked in an additional $20 million to $550 million each and every year since 1984 to boot.

All so you can ride at your ease on a toy train that gets overcrowded if more than 3% of the day's commuters try to get on it during the morning rush. If you can't recognize selfishness in your attitude, I can't help you.

bombardier

I love the commercial where the Bombardier employee on vacation can't even take a picture as requested, but instead takes a shot of one of their crap-tacular trains, like anyone gives a flying frak. Just take the picture dumbass.

What brand of idiot puts an ad on television that basically says our employees are self-involved and impolite?

zalm

1991 you say. 17 years ago. Long time ago wasn't it.
I won't get into a long rebuttal. I'll just let you, and the ex AME know a lot of things have changed since the Dryden Report, which changed the face of the way aircraft maintenance is carried out in Canada. Its available on the web should you wish to educate yourself.

And of course my "utter shock" was sarcastic because I knew the person posting was full of it. How do I know this? The AME's I know are a tight bunch. They will hound any "shirkers and gomers" right out of the Industry if they think them dangerous to the flying public. Its not like any profession you've ever done. Any AME who believes he is being "pressured" to send out a dangerous product will 1) flatly refuse to sign the logbbok and 2) run, not walk, to the nearest Transport Canada Airworthiness Inspector with a complaint. I challenge you, west or anybody prove me wrong on this

I heard a saying once from an AME: If a doctor screws up he could kill somebody. If I screw up I could kill hundreds.

There probably are more accidenatal deaths from medical mistakes than from getting on an airplane aren't there Zalm.

point counter point Frank

"The bid for the new vessels went out internationally and - contrary to the assertion made by [NDP Leader Carole] James - domestic shipbuilders were invited to compete, as well. The local company, Washington Marine Group, made it to the second phase of the bidding process, but was not invited to the third because of cost and capacity estimates. Translation: the local bid was not competitive. As an independent business should, B.C. Ferries made its decision according to its bottom line and not from political pressuring."
- Sarah MacIntyre, BC Director Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, quoted in the Victoria Times-Colonist, July 23, 2004.

"True, the locals don't have the inside track, as they did in the past. This time they'll have to do their homework and prove they can compete internationally. But after two failed attempts by government to rescue the industry, it is perhaps time to expect that the industry will do something to rescue itself."
- Vancouver Sun columnist Vaughn Palmer, August 6, 200

"Construction of the two Spirit-class ferries in the early 1990s demonstrated that the province no longer had individual shipyards with the financial capability to build large steel ships. A few yards could build smaller steel ferries, but larger projects could only be handled by setting up a management company to allocate construction work among a number of yards."
- BC's Auditor-General, Review of Fast Ferry Project, 1999

PacifiCats vs. Skytrain

Realisticman said:

So what? Comparatively, how much are the taxpayers on the hook for the combined three lines, as opposed to the $454 million for the PacifiCats? How long will it take to pay off the metro investments? What about the cost to people who are saddled with a dysfunctional transportation system? What about the cost from increased pollution that will come with Gateway because so much money was wasted on metro and highways that communities east of the Fraser won't be getting decent transit any time soon? What about the cost of farmland and habitat destruction? This is infrastructure we will be locked into for decades.

The PacifiCats are trivial in comparison.

happy

So you believe BC shipbuilders lack the ability to build ships...

Would that be because we don't have a domestic market? Oops, we do, as historically we've built a lot of ships in order to move people and goods across our geography which tends to be too wet and deep for trucks.

Yet, in the same breath you claim there was no loss of work. Okay, I have to ask, what do the shipbuilders build if they are no longer capable of building ships?

Germany is still getting other ferry work of ours but the federal government is now providing taxpayer money in order to keep the American who runs BC Ferries from giving all the work on our ferries to Germany.

Now since the Feds seem to be trying to protect Cdn jobs at the same time BC is trying to eliminate them and since those taxpayer dollars are in fact helping to employ shipbuilders building ships it seems to me that the Feds believe we can build ships and you and David Hahn (and the Taxpayer's Fed who must love the idea of the Feds kicking in cash) believe we can't.

Not me Frank

I'm not the one who says BC shipyards lack the ability to build large ferries.

The BC Auditor General said it as far back as 1999. That was your team.

There is no loss of work Frank. The yards are running at capacity. Doing, among other things, building ferries! They are more stable now than they have been for decades. You are arguing for jobs that don't exist but, yes the Union would love to see created out of thin air. We've been down this road before. We've tried it your way. You had your chance(s) You and everyone else can pass judgement in 2009

Fair enough?

happy

You seem to disagree with the people actually working there. Hmm, whom to believe... I suppose you'll be giving me your personal guarantee there has been no loss of shipbuilding jobs in BC due to work being done in Germany?

Now I admit, you quote the auditor, Vaughn Palmer and the Cdn Taxpayer's Federation as your team of experts against my quotes from actual shipbuilders and I'm sure the CTF and Mr Palmer know more about shipbuilding than the shipbuilders themselves but I still remain skeptical for some reason.

But then I don't live in a reality that thinks its best if the US builds US ships, Germany builds German ships and Germany builds Canadian ships.

Perhaps you should ask the federal government why they are giving money to David Hahn so as to keep BC shipbuilders building ships?

It's just been delivered Frank

Vancouver Shipyards to Build New Ship in North Vancouver
Friday, July 07, 2006

BC Ferries announced that it has signed a $41m contract with Vancouver Shipyards, a Washington Marine Group company, to build a new 125-car intermediate size ferry. Construction on the 100 m vessel will begin later this year and the ship is expected to enter service by the summer of 2008. The new intermediate vessel will allow for the retirement of the 46-year-old Queen of Tsawwassen. The new ship will initially sail on the Earls Cove - Saltery Bay route on the Sunshine Coast. The design of the vessel includes a comfortable lounge, a snack bar and a new state-of-the-art lifesaving system. The process for selecting the successful builder was started last year with 14 shipyards invited to participate in the prequalification process for the intermediate vessel, as a result of which two Canadian shipyards and one international yard were short listed. Last year, the three yards submitted bids in response to the Request for Proposals and, on September 20, 2005, BC Ferries signed a formal letter of intent with the Washington Marine Group.

Now I know this may meet your standards as its only 41 Mil but as you read this more are being built.

And yeah man. Germany builds German ships and Germany builds Canadian ships.

And Canada builds Canadian ships and Canada builds German airplanes. Lot of spioff work from that in BC. Check it out if you want

happy

Hooray, $41m for BC shipyards, $675M for German shipyards.

I realize your ideological blinkers prevent you from responding to my queries but I have found it quite amusing how many hoops you will jump through to avoid saying one word of criticism against a government decision.

Don't worry, there's no such thing as "comparative advantage" in your world.

Realisticman

You've gone quiet? You never got back to me as to how much you believed gas prices would fall ("reasonably priced gas") if we built a refinery in Point Grey.

And from your silence (and your past silence on ever saying a word against a right-wing government decision) I assume you also believe the federal government should be giving money to BC Ferries so that they will purchase product from BC shipyards?

Outdated ideas

By the way, rising energy costs and increasing pollution will eventually lead people to the common-sense conclusion that it makes no sense whatsoever to buy ferries in Germany and ship them here when the work could be done here in the first place.

I don't expect such an idea to make any headway against those who think good economic thinking began and ended in the period prior to the First World War but I'll toss it out there anyway for those open to change.

Romeogolf....

......the annual subsidy for SkyTrain is over $200 million annually, or put another way, every two years the subsidy for the SkyTrain metro system is about the same as one complete FastFerry fiasco.

But because so few people actually take SkyTrain and public transit and that there is not a regularly timed independent audit of the SkyTrain metro system, and for SkyTrain for that matter, the public really doesn't care. But with higher and higher TransLink taxes on property, I believe the taxpayer is waking up to the fact that there is something very wrong.

thats the first 41 mil Frank

Mores flowing as you read this. Much more is comitted. Nice play on numbers.

Obviously we will not find common ground here. You appear to be Old School and no evidence I provide will sway your thought process. If ANY political decision made is perceived to be against the Direct interests of the BC Fed, then you are against it. Period. Thats fine, I respect your right to have a different opinion than mine.

I propose we postpone any further discussions of Ferries PERIOD till post 2009 election.

You may have the last word.

happy

Au contraire, it is you that is blinded by ideology. Campbell gives contracts to Germany, you cheer. Campbell gives contracts to BC, you cheer. You don't care what he does, you will justify it either way.

As for postponing discussions on ferries for a couple of years, I see no reason to. I come here to discuss not to rant.

Frank

Work had to be done, Frank.

Wouldn't go down much, maybe 10cents a L. Remember last year when the price was rising fast? All commentators were asked why in BC we were paying more than anywhere else in Canada. One reason, of course, was the GVRD tax, that's why it's always cheaper in Abbotsford. The other was, and is, lack of refining capacity around here.
(See posts above for other benefits)

Do you expect VanShip to be officially awarded the 1.4 billion subs contract? Law suits are flying and in the news again today.

Realisticman

10 cents a litre would be pretty nice. But that's almost 40 cents a US gallon.

After your original comment on the subject I did google gas prices at various locations in the US and couldn't find much difference between places with refineries and places without refineries. I realize that doesn't jive with what the theoreticians say should be the case but I don't think we can ignore what we see in the US example.

Other benefits are a given but I would look at your exchange with RickW and suggest we put the refineries close to the places they get the resource from so that the people in those places get more of the benefits from those resources. Again, it also coincides with my belief in things like the 100 mile diet and related concepts such as becoming more self-sufficient in everything we can be rather than getting the Germans to do our high paid work for us while we instead hire our youngsters to work in the low wage and low skill, service sector.

No idea.

Well Zalm and Grumpy…

Of course you two have worn down anyone who actually supports what the Skytrain system has achieved. Skytrain would probably not be the right decision to make for a transit system now, but at the time, it was great for getting the public on board. I don’t think any other transit system would have been able to be sold to the public at the time. It was clean, and did not block traffic and easy to figure out.

Both you and Grumpy like to throw about numbers to legitimize your opinion. I am sure I could find someone from Translink that would be willing to offer an equally impressive set of convincing numbers. What’s the point? However, I can pick up a few maps and see the impact that Skytrain has had on the landscape.

Grumpy points to the Calgary C-Train as a shining example of what LRT can do. Well, the LRT has been around since the early 80s. So what is Calgary a shining example of? A cheaper to run C-Train? Or a textbook example of urban sprawl? You choose. The MAX system in Oregon? So underutilized… sprawl and freeway construction continues.

Again and again, you can spit out numbers… but really, so can the “other side”. Because of this, many of us need to go to other sources of information to observe. Again, find a seat on Skytrain during the rush hours, or for special events that take place downtown over 100 days per year. Take a look at a recent map and look at the developments that surround Skytrain stations. People obviously want to have the option of using this system. Ridership on C-train is good… slightly higher than Skytrain’s, but how long are the trips taken by each passenger? Is the C-train stopping sprawl and getting cars off the road? Skytrain is.

I find it quite humorous, zalm, to say that I have “no business” castigating those who attack the supposed benefits that came with the Expo line. But it seems that for some of you (you and Grumpy), every story has to turn into the “perils of Skytrain”. It is like being in the office lunchroom and having a couple of people continually hijack the noon hour discussion. Pretty soon people will stop coming to the lunchroom.

What I also find humorous, is that Grumpy, in two separate posts will state that no one else is using Skytrain technology in the first post, but then state that only three are using it in the second post. So what is it? Do you mean the Detroit 2003? JFK 2003? Kuala Lumpur built 1998? Hmmm, the organizations in these cities sure had the time to evaluate the Skytrain system.

Instead of harping on Skytrain, why are we not posting and asking why it is a bus route going along the new bridge and not a light rail route? Why was it not a commuter rail service to Whistler instead of a highway?

R/Man

I did. It's called paying for the resource. Then let the local communities come up with investment plans.

Frank

Go to gasbuddy.com, scroll down and select a chart for British Columbia for one year. See how the price is always higher in BC than the Canadian average. Therefore, it's not just the GVRD tax that makes it higher all over BC. Lack of refining capacity is a factor. As you say, any new refinery should be built near a supply and with a short and practical route to markets. They can also be built cleanly. Last year an environment protection group from Canada toured the BP refinery near Bellingham and was amazed at how clean and environmentally-conscious and advanced it is.

I'm not saying crank up the V8 but petroleum products will be here for a long time yet and we should have the work and products produced in BC.

Here too:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061222/gas_prices_061222/20061222?hub=TopStories

RickW

So they should dig it up and sell it Rick. Then keep the profits for diversification. Isn't that what the Westbank people are doing? Doing it themselves.

Oh Goody! BP ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/05/04/cnbp04.xml

Would this be the BP and its safety and environmental record you're talking about, Realisticman?

Are you sure BC should be fishing for a refinery in the Lower Mainland?

I'm not.

That's the one Mary

GWest mused that a refinery could be built around the UBC area.

I guess he's referring to our Premier. What do you think, Spanish Banks, Pacific Spirit Park, maybe the golf course area.

Geez, a stop every 500

Geez, a stop every 500 metres? That would be 20 stops on my daily 10 km (one way)trip on SkyTrain. In reality I count 8 stops, and it's hard to imagine where to squeeze in the other 12.... I mean, it currrently does stop at pretty much every major X street (except perhaps Nanaimo on the M line)... Rupert and Renfrew appear to be about 1km apart, and where would you put one in the middle? No, a 500m walk isn't too much to ask, that's what I walk according to Google Maps, and it only takes 6 minutes; but then what do I know, I'm not an 'expert', just a daily user.

Once again R/man

You've actually got that wrong too...you'll find the idea came from Frank, not me. He was clearly being satirical - as was my later reference to UBC.

You're apparently still blind to irony.

I have suggested, however, that if Texada Island is an appropriate place for an LNG terminal, then perhaps Bowen Island or even Sea Island ought to be as well.

In future, if you wish, I'll arrange to post an irony alert on any complicated comments that involve a subtext or require some additional exegesis.

By the way, for anyone who’s interested, BC Mary’s story about BP reminded me of a few others:

http://www.ergoweb.com/news/detail.cfm?id=1693

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/224394_bplede16.html

http://www.hazards.org/bp/

It was his idea

I wouldn't care if they built 5 refineries next to Campbell's house in Point Grey. I wouldn't care if they built them along the UBC bus route.

Roll out the barrels.

Fair enough West it was, originally, Frank's musing. You two often agree. Oil be seeing you.

The Economics of Skytrain

I don't find your defense of Skytrain, Moat, to be very compelling. Three other systems in the world don't constitute a rousing endorsement of the system. If you consider what we would get by investing the cost of the three Lower Mainland lines in LRT -- a mode that is far more prevalent internationally -- the Lower Mainland's transportation woes would be considerably less. You can still get densification around LRT stops. You get that through zoning and urban planning.

As for ridership numbers, TransLink's data is of questionable credibility. They have an image to keep up. The numbers are also skewed because of changing bus routes to feed into Skytrain to boost ridership. Crowded cars during rush hour is not necessarily an indication of high ridership overall. You can easily give this impression by putting on fewer cars than are available.

Realisticman

We both know that would require more capital and expertise than many of those little towns have. It can be done but its not as simple as just handing out shovels to the locals.

But again, you're ignoring the US example. Why deal with theory when we can look south of the border and see the facts?

Actually if the Lower Mainland is to have a refinery I'd rather it be in Point Grey or West Van etc than anywhere else. Whatever pollution it spills out will still come up the valley anyway.

But the fact is it would be more equitable if the jobs (and royalties) went to the places where the resource was being extracted from. Agree?

Skytrain verus LRT is a moot

Skytrain verus LRT is a moot arguement really we have skytrain now and it's highly unlikely we're going to knock it down and start over.

I,too, take skytrain although facts are that because I work in 24/7/365 facility the hours of the train service are not the greatest its the feeding of the bus service to the trains that really messes it up. Not everybody works bankers hours with weekends off. Try working all night wait till the trains start on weekends and then walk from the station home.Or spending a full shift on your feet then standing all the way home (train and bus). Not incentive to use the system.

However, moat is right the expo line is well used through out its service hours and and commercial and residental growth is rapid around the lines. Which is probably why the NIMBY's didn't want the Canada line down arbutus. Don't want their little world changed that much that way.

I think where this debate should go -with grumpy leading the way because he seems to have done alot of research- is how we can add to our transit protfolio quickly with maxium benefits.

One more thing people are lazy creatures and need the service right under their noses showing up the car as reliable comfortable transportation.

BLONDE PITBULL – The debate should go?

You are right about where the debate should go… however, I do not think we are at that point…yet.

I completely agree with you on the odd hours for transit services. I could never figure out why more effort was not put into extending Skytrain hours, or the logic that went into cutting night bus hours. It is really almost a public safety issue.

The RAV line is going to be a costly system. The money would have been better used to tunnel under Broadway and extend the Millennium line, and instead use a lighter transit system to the airport, or get started on getting something to Maple Ridge that does not just run one direction during rush hours.

It has been great over the past 20 years, to be able to go from waterfront to Waterfront (New Westminster to Canada place) in under a half hour. That is success, and if we can reproduce it elsewhere, we will be able to get people out of the automobile.

Stuck with Skytrain

Of course we're not going to knock down an expensive, existing structure and start over, BP. However, that doesn't mean we have to continue using that system to expand the network throughout the rest of the Lower Mainland. There are foolish people talking about doing that along Broadway, but the RAV line is not compatible, nor the Evergreen Line if it gets built according to Falcon's specs. The result? A farcical dog's breakfast.

I agree that we should add to our transit protfolio quickly with the maximum bang for our buck. Grumpy has on numerous occasions explained how this could be done. The real problem is that with Falcon at the controls, this won't happen.

Transportation, romeogolf to elliot

That is ok, Romeogolf, I did not really expect you to find it compelling. I was responding to previous posts of “why don't other cities build with SkyTrain?” Then when I produce three examples…. it is not “compelling” enough.

The other thing that you, Grumpy, and zalm neglect to mention is that we did have light rail in the Lower Mainland. The interurban ran from Steveston and out to mission. Unfortunately, we all know that it was dismantled in favor of the automobile because of compromised planning values.

So we gave light rail a try in Vancouver, and it did not work. To only blame to government at the time ignores the prevailing attitude of the public towards transportation issues. We can argue forever about whether an “at grade” LRT instead of the Expo line should have been constructed. I am just saying that an “at grade” LRT will not have been accepted as favorably as Skytrain has, and we would probably be stuck more with more of the issues that face Calgary, Seattle, and Portland. Romeogolf, you are telling me to look at LRT rail internationally - most likely those that are in continental Europe, but we would then be ignoring cultural differences and the concept or organic vs. planned cities. Something simple as trying to get a North American to go with a Euro-style fridge is next to impossible – even if you at length explained the differences in cost and space saving features for a 600 sq. ft. apartment.

Now, I really got a kick of what you wrote here…

So are you suggesting that TransLink would intentionally damage the experience of its users to give the impression of ridership? Maybe create a more intimate atmosphere like at a nightclub or a Lions game?

You must be joking.

More thread pollution.

Dogs breafast ain't it

Dogs breafast ain't it though? TWO types of skytrain UGH!!! Then the evergreen line...don't get me started. I often wonder if these people spend their own money this way. One type of skytrain with a tunnel under broadway to arbutus and out to Richmond makes a whole lot more sense. Continuing the Millienum line to coquitlam with LRT/bus doing local/feeder service into the burbs, sure. Braid street station skytrain contination over a twinned Port Mann bridge down 152 or 154 to Fraser Hwy and connecting to King George station again with local/feeder LRT and bus service makes the money we've spent better financial sense. The way its being/been done is spending good money after bad.

The happy AME

17 years ago was a long time ago, and I haven't seen that guy in at least five years, never mind talked to him about it in longer. But I thought it was an interesting thing to add to the debate.

But if AMEs are as competent a bunch as you say, get 'em to run for government. I'd vote for that. And Translink too - see if you can get the Falconator to appoint a bunch of AMEs to design traffic movement properly. When they're not drumming the incompetent bureaucrats and politicians out of office, that is.

I'd really like to believe you - I really would. I still fly every couple of years or so, and don't worry in the slightest whether my plane is going to fall out of the sky based on their work. But you're singing the same song that everyone else has ever sung - from engineering a Save-On Foods parking lot, to Chalk River, to the medical profession, to building code writers/builders....the list of fallen gods goes on and on, so forgive me if I keep to myself a quiet note of skepticism about that tight bunch you know. My crew's sung the same song - I know all the words.

And you're quite right - at 195,000 deaths from medical error every years in the US, that profession has a few things to look at as well.