Why support the NDP?

Cripes, this is a lame justification of a feeble position. Is the NDP caucus so starved for talent that this is the best they can do?

But I didn't need this to push me over the edge. The MLA salary increase and the outrageous pension grab was enough for me.

If the present NDP caucus doesn't give a fart about their electability, why should anyone else?

Please resign, Carole. Many of us in the center or left of center would like a plausible alternative to the barbarians in power.

Resign!

Resign!

Depart I say! For you have sat here too long for what good you have done. Depart! In the name of god, go!

I wonder if Carole is really on the Liberals payroll?

No one is saying the land shouldn't

No one is saying, as far as I know, that the land in question shouldn't have been part of the TFN treaty deal Martin. The question is one of the rule of law and the observation of due process.

By all means transfer the land to the Tsawwassen and let them, as the new owners, apply to have it removed from the ALR and, should that transfer not be approved, live by the results.

That's where you and the current leader of the Opposition are, in my view, mistaken.

I don't expect the Campbell government to behave any better than they have - their current fascination with treaty settlements in areas where they have commercial and business interests (or their friends and enablers do) is a pretty fair clue to what Campbell is all about.

The NDP can and should support decent treaty settlements and the inherent principle of preserving increasingly scarce agricultural land. Period.

They were wrong to do what they have done and the fact both you and realisticman support them is a good indication of exactly HOW WRONG THEY ARE.

Carole James on the Tsawwassen Treaty

So Carole James and the NDP are enthusiastically embracing a corrupt process which lacked credible public input and which included secret backroom deals to facilitate port expansion at Roberts Bank. In 2004 secret backroom deals were made by the B.C. and federal governments to ensure Deltaport expansion on 3,000 acres of waterlot (internationally-significant habitat at Roberts Bank) and several hundred acres of Agriculture Land Reserve. Why were secret backroom deals made with the TFN giving away thousands of acres of B.C. crown lands to the federal government to be managed by the Vancouver Port Authority? The agenda for the federal and provincial governments has been to secure environmentally-sensitive lands and agricultural lands for port expansion. What has happened to open government and transparecy? What has happened to "representative government"?
This kind of deception, cloaked in the terms "social justice' and "political correctness" erodes the foundations of democracy. And Carole James calls this one of her proudest moments.

Tsawwassen is just another

Tsawwassen is just another addition to the long list of dirty tricks by the G Campbell dictatorship and his cowardly sheepal. Just like the NDP who I've voted for all my life starting at age 19 (45yrs)
but alas my new party of choice will be the Canadian Action Party as they are taking on the disgusting elitists and denouncing SPP's and big banks and to bring back OUR Bank of Canada (No thanks to B Mulroney also NAFTA) to and for all Canadians at 1% interest for all infrastructures, hospitals, schools, health care, etc and that 1% comes back to US, the taxpayer!
http://canadianactionparty.ca/home.html
I know that we have been sold out by TILMA, and that it has already started to show its ugly head! GVTA has a new moniker and is now governed/dictated by three (3) government appointed "big biz" yahoos and as such the people of BC should be marching on OUR Legislature Buildings
Documentry "Money as Debt" a great eye opener as Ed Deak has mentioned many times on The Tyee!

Same rules for everyone!

well put G West!

If one reads through all your long tedious posts, then occasionally you do bring forth a sensible thougth!

Good work, but keep it brief please [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. CHEEKY COMMENT ABOVE ACKNOWLEDGED AND LEFT FOR ITS CHEEKINESS. -EDITOR.]

inde's the way to go...

mcdull wrote.

Ms James' stance on the treaty process became clear with the little Freudian slip (or was that a 'slop'?) in front of reporters where she let drop that they (the NDP leadership = whoever the hell that really is?) plan to support another treaty under negotiation, while stating that there was tacit support for the Tsawassen one. She and her party stand for nothing anymore, since they are trying so hard to stand for everything.

The NDP has become dishwater and it would be better for BC overall to flush them entirely.

I agree mcdull, Independant all the way!

Capitalism disguised as friend of Natives...

When you have these kind of folks above, dressed up as friends of Natives and supporting the NDP, you know there is seriously something wrong with this picture.

I understand the Native plight, and really I understand the desperation at back of why they have cut the deal with the Neocon Liberals they have in this treaty. Sometimes, when you are down and desperate enough, stripped of of all that was once yours by self-serving outsiders, as the early Europeans and later "immigrant culture" certainly were/and are, who failed to adapt to your "native" ways, even when they approach you with further of their own self-serving "free market" rip-offs, playing you off against some of their own, there is little choice really, but to accept the fraction of a loaf of bread that is better than none at all.

And have no doubt, with the added push of Quislings of their own, as we ourselves have vis a vis the US Empire around the sleight of hand scam of so-called "Free Trade",, who want in on the game of Greater Capitalism as currently is the only game in town, calls the shots and sets the rules, that fraction of a loaf frustration is what is behind this deal here too, between the Tsawwassen and the Neocon_Liberal State. The same fears and class forces are at work as are in place in the unequal "free trade deal" twixt compliant, timid, even frightened of being left out in the cold on its own Canadian capitalism in its relationship to the imperially ambitious US Empire, with its eye on our north and our resources.

It is exploitive inequality of course, and the choking off and manipulation of real choices as is typical of capitalism, bloated with class, sex and race inequalities, and as ever gets passed on down from the higher to lower within it. Capitalism is, afterall, no less a brutal pecking order socio-economic system than was the earlier Greco-Roman slave systems. (And we still think of Greece, for example, as the birthplace fount of democracy-, where slaves outnumbered even unequal "freemen". That's right, free "men", not including women.)

Here, it is to be a tragedy, in the final analysis, with the further loss of green space and agricultural land, and given the further unchecked capitalist "over-development" as is destroying the entire planet, delivered as much in the end on Native folks as ourselves. Unfortunately, our Native brothers and sisters are caught in a classic damned if they do and damned if they don't situation. We, however, are the actual authors of this Greek tragedy, in which we get to play our part no less.

Carole is just too not smart enough to understand what is really happening here, let alone have the backbone courage to call what is happening here for what it really is.

Failures of intellect and courage happen to some folks, regardless of the White or Native content of their blood.

OMG Carole James is alive and ....

OMG Carole James is alive and...
doing all her talking outside the chambers of government where she is paid a pretty penny to keep her mouth closed.
Somehow this all seems backwards.

carp I shoulda said...

in tyeespeak..
it all sounds a little fishy...

haa I'll bet Carole herself removed my comment

This site is sanitized on an hourly basis.
Like the natives who are sanitized on a generational basis.

gordon

Your comment is still there. You've just run afoul of the default version. Go to the end of the article, select the ALL COMMENTS tab and you'll find no one has touched it.

It just didn't make the cut as a 'best comment' and therefore is expunged from that view of the editors' world.

check it out. Best to not sign out ever because the software defaults to the 'BEST COMMENTS tab each time you do.

FAO comments elsewhere

On my knees thanking for small mercies.

you're so genteel

That's where you'll have to stay, on your knees and praying if you take any comfort from those 'prospective' figures the FAO published R'man.

Like their last set of shoddy predictions, they aren't worth the paper they're written on and certainly not the salaries paid out to spin them.

I see you haven't bothered to actually respond to the point I made about the ALR.

What else is new?

Er, everyone?

Muckeye

I don't think so. Judging by the comments on this thread I'd say au contraire.

Er, realistic man.

Surely you don't interpret any of this as support for Campbell and his crowd?

We all eat, or prefer to do so!

I thank Carole James for trying to explain her inexplicable sell out position vis-a-vis this land grab by Gordo and his cronies disguised as an Indian Treaty. Now I would really give her some respect if she was woman enough to reply here in the comments to G West's extremely cogent criticism of her waffle like position. If she could address his points in a sensible manner it would be more than she usually does in the House (we still have a Legislature, don't we?).

I am extremely disgusted by Carole's refusal to let her caucus members vote their concience and speak for their constituents. Maybe we shouldn't even pretend to be a democracy anymore. This kind of fascism from the top down doesn't surprise me from Gordo, Pee Wee Harper or even the fed Liberals - but the NDP used to represent the people and their interests, not the fact that Carole James decided to accomodate and enable the wholesale theft of BC by the people posing as BC LIEberals.

Maybe soon we can have an Emerson clone representing every riding, for every party.

It wasn't surprising to see good old R/Man immediately staking his claim on the irrational, where ever that may lie on any issue. I would like to point out to Martin however, that while I agree with some aspects of his comment - as to:

The true reason for the ALR DOES trump the economic needs of first nations AND everyone elses' as well. The fact is Canada and BC in particular have very little arable land capable of producing food. EVERYONE, First Nations, NDPers and Neo-Cons alike NEED to eat. Scrooge McDuck's famous swimming pool of money is a poor replacement for wheat, rice or beef. Soon enough with losses of arable land elsewhere and the rising costs of transporting food, it may not be affordable to get lettuce and tomatoes from California or Mexico.

Someday all that pavement and concrete over farmland will seem really stupid to a bunch of hungry people of all ethnicities and political affiliations. It (the pavement and concrete) will be really hard to plow up too, especially using a horse drawn plow, when oil is $400 per barrel.

Yeah!

r'man:
where exactly do you get the idea that more than a couple of posters here (who already were campbell supporters) would 'ever' vote for the Gordon party?

There's actually a horrendously unscientific poll the Tyee is running right now where 62% of the respondents currently say they 'don't support the treaty'. I know that means less than nothing but, your remark refers to this thread and its comments. While I see a lot of people justifiably disgruntled with Carole James I see no concurrent welling up of support for the 'real' author of the disaster – Gordon Campbell and his ‘personal’ party.

Will you be out golfing for the Liberals at the weekend?
http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/002637.html

Are things getting that desperate?

Properly Proportioning Blame...

First, let me be clear, I am implacably opposed to the larcenous intent of the "developer capitalist" driving force behind this proposed treaty with the Tsswwassen Natives. I am also, however, opposed to "immigrant society's" tending to lay too much of the blame here upon the victims for "our" own, our State's. and our business class treachery. It is too many of us, not Natives, who have stood idly by and allowed the "business class" to turn our/Native's land into a great bejeezus parking lot, and our oceans and streams into toxic soup, and our skies into a microwave.

So we, immigrant society of the last hundred and more years,especially those of us who fancy ourselves "green" and "progressive", let alone "radical", had best be careful how we apportion out blame here, that we do not attempt to spread too unbelievably thin our own hypocrisy. Until we, the so-called left of "immigrant society", its patriotic progressives and radicals, to say nothing of our ordinary citizenry who in their multitudes simply go with the "official" ruling class flow get our own house and the greed of our ruling class and its minions under control and in better order, we had best be goddamn understanding of the untenable, impoverished and desperate position the mass of our Native brothers and sisters find themselves in. In many cases, it seems to me, here around this treaty for example, they are desperately casting about at straws for solutions, which the "market mentality" of the ruling class is being quick to latch onto, in the service of their own larcenous interests. (Which is not to excuse Native Quisling "developer capitalist" wannabes anymore than our own.)

Our analysis needs better balance here, very often, it seems to me.

The overweening tendency of ourselves is still, as it has ever been, to look after our own interests, and this far into the treacherous history of "immigrant capitalist society" in this country and continent, we should not be surprised, and we need to be more understanding and less self-righteously shrill, when Natives, as short-sighted as we, do the same thing.

The problem is not so much Natives, or even the Treaty itself, per se, as it is the social, political and economic system in place that is driving it all. And we need to understand that before we go pissing too quickly into the wind.

The world as parking lot

kootcoot:

And that is the wider vision that needs to be perceived here at this most critical time in the history of man - as this earth and all of its people hurtle towards destuction.

History itself is about to collapse for us all.

Canis Latrans

I agree completely. The very framework and the history of the place are out of joint and, say what one might, the place of the First Nations as owners of this land and currently at the very bottom of the economic totem pole, cannot be gainsaid or ignored.

I suspect that in some fundamental way it is this fact – and a concern for the appallingly bad conditions and circumstances of much of the British Columbia aboriginal population – that has led Carole James to make this incredibly stupid ‘political’ move. Her ‘heart’ as they say, is in the right spot but her head – a head that must play in the political lists with an assassin – is out of joint. A close look at the ‘protections’ and guarantees in this treaty would, I’d have thought, have created enough disquiet about the longer-term prospects of the new Tsawwassen First Nation as a body corporate to unsettle the most rosy predictions – even without the glaring flaw of lost rare agricultural land.

The Campbell party, by declaring the upcoming vote on the treaty will be a ‘free’ vote, has completed the public embarrassment of Carole James as a political leader. She, who must ‘discipline’ her caucus members in order to get them to fall in line over a vote on an issue that was purposely created by the government to the satisfaction of its corporate friends – in lockstep with the agenda Campbell was handed by those interests - can hardly avoid the public embarrassment of a leader who is clearly beyond her depth.

If this were not so sad – it would be funny.

Thank You Sylvia

I hope more than the few of us around here - who do what little we can - are listening.

I hope that Carole James, with her undoubtedly good heart, will stop by here to read the responses her short article has generated.

I hope she too will listen...

And Budd - if you'd

If you'd take the time to read what I've posted above it's obvious that I had no problem with ALR land (and due process) being part of the settlement.

As I wrote above (I'll post it in again to save you the trouble of looking for it):

I hope that my initial post made clear it is not the 'land' component of the settlement that is problematic. It is the alienating of that land, as a part of the treaty agreement, from its status as agricultural land. In addition, it is the short-circuiting of the process to which all applicants for removal of ALR land from the reserve should be subject – these rules and procedures ought to apply to ALL AGRICULTURAL LAND – no matter who owns it, fee simple or otherwise.

The disrespect of the Campbell government for that principle of law and practice and the opposition's failure to fight this is the gaping hole in Ms James' argument.

This kind of compromised deal is no surprise from Gordon Campbell; it is no surprise for Stephen Harper; it is in fact exactly in keeping with their 'values' and standards; but from the NDP it is tantamount to betrayal.

There are other reasons why the current brand of treaty settlement and process is wrong, both economically and relative to the financial and ownership interests of First Nations peoples. These things are also worth discussing but I'll defer to First Nations' spokespeople themselves in such matters.

For the moment we are dealing with Ms James' and her caucus's almost unanimous failure to abide by important principles that ought to be second nature for her party. That, in itself, is sad enough news without getting into other matters - in my opinion.

Clear enough Budd?

What the...

Can't you read? Do you have trouble comprehending? I'm the one who said we should but out of this and let them decide what to do with their land.

this is what you said

.

I call that, along with the rest of your post, offensive.

What gives you the right to decide that First Nations traditional practices and cultural tradtions - the ones we've been destroying and disrespecting for generations - should be replaced by Gordon Campbell's version of a 'happy' lifestyle?

You're right about your not being an expert in native history though. And having etremely bad manners into the bargain.

As to reading

If you'd actually taken the trouble to read about the treaty process and the way it has been manipulated by Campbell and his corporate cronies then you wouldn't post such absolute rot. Have you 'read' the agreement? Are you aware how much of this land is going to end up being held in fee simple which will, in the fullness of time, mean it may well be alienated forever from the Tsawwassen First Nation? Are you aware of the industrial impact of the expansion to Roberts Bank facilities on the nation's traditional fishing and farming practices already - let alone when Campbell's gateway gang get finished with it?

Are you aware how much the treaty negotiations have already cost the TFN and how big their financial liability is going to be? Are you aware of the financial obligations that the treaty saddles this new ‘government’ with?

I said earlier on I didn't want to get into these things - but there are native commentators who have - and I'm far from the only person who has been pointing this out.

Did Campbell force this

Did Campbell force this treaty on them Mr West or did they accept it in a democratic vote?

And yes, thats exactly what I said. I hope their children can look ahead now to a better life, now that they can decide how to proceed. Now how is that offensive to you? Would you rather they didn't?

I guess you prefer to keep them on the rez in poverty, because as we all know, you know whats best for everybody.

I believe in people making thier own choices. Before this they had no choices, little hope. To me thats what was offensive.

Keep 'em down on the Farm

Paternalistic socialista pretending that their 'Disneyesque' ideal of the First Nations staying on the LAND is 'best', papa knows best. It's ALR, that's sacred, even if it's yours. Go to court and fight it.

Even Canis Latrans says consider the wind, "The overweening tendency of ourselves is still, as it has ever been, to look after our own interests, and this far into the treacherous history of "immigrant capitalist society" in this country and continent, we should not be surprised, and we need to be more understanding and less self-righteously shrill, when Natives, as short-sighted as we, do the same thing.

The problem is not so much Natives, or even the Treaty itself, per se, as it is the social, political and economic system in place that is driving it all. And we need to understand that before we go pissing too quickly into the wind."

But no. Budd Campbell pits in his two cents and again, no. We know best.

Let it go West. It was a democratic vote, it just wasn't your team that offered the deal (like, how many did your team offer?).

How much damage are you determined to do to your NDP friends?

I serve the truth and the facts r'man

Something you apparently know nothing about. If the political party I tend to support does something stupid and ill-advised I'm not afraid to say so.
As to any damage, your party and your colonial attitudes have already done that in spades and laughed about it - remember, that's where you came in?

As to whether or not this was a 'democratic' choice, I think you'd better:
1) read the 'deal' itself;
2) check who's footing the bill, and:
3) have a look at this:
http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2007/07/tsawwassen-first-nations-treaty.html

and this:
http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2007/07/tsawwassen-first-nations-treaty.html

and this:

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2007/07/grand-chief-stewart-phillip-blasts-bc.html

YOU LET IT GO R'MAN - how much damage are you prepared to do to your reputation?

You might also want to remember this:

Eighty per cent of negotiation support funding to First Nations is provided as loans from the federal government, and 20 per cent as contributions from the federal and provincial governments. The federal government provides 60 per cent of the contribution funding and the provincial government provides 40 per cent.

At the 2005 year end report of the BC Treaty process the aggregate amount of these loans had already exceeded 60% of the total anticipated value of all the settlements being discussed in the whole province.

You really think these settlements represent an 'opportunity' for these new governments? C'mon, now who is 'really' being paternalistic?

On Vancouver Island, the Cowichan Tribe is currently paying (out of their loan funding formula) $10,000 per month for the consultation services of former Cabinet minister Graham Bruce...

Are you sure you really 'want' to get into this?

What do any of these long

What do any of these long winded side issues have to do with the discussion. I thought we were discussing whether it was the bands choice to do what they want with thier land. You keep on inferring they've been played for fools by Gordo into voting to accept the agreement. Oh wait, I forgot. Thats your gangs explanation for why the liberals won the last two elections. The general public is too stupid to think for themselves. I see now you've included the Natives as well

Six Mile Ranch

Now what party was in power, and who was the premier, when this land was removed from the ALR for a GOLF COURSE. At least the libs got a treaty settlement for thier efforts. What was the payoff for Glen?

To Sylvia Stephens

I know absolutely zero about the issues you say exist in your neck of the woods but I was wondering if you, or anybody, has an opinion on the Sechelt Band treaty good, bad or otherwise. I'm familiar with the area and people and from what I've seen they seem to be getting by in life as good as thier white neighbours. As I understand it they too have a form of limited self governance.

(As an aside I guess its not always bad to be working a 12 hour night shift. I can post at will without that pompous you know who interrupting constantly - just a joke pal. Life is too short to be bitter all the time. Take the good with the bad, everybody does)

Food is Realistic, Man!

Hey R/Man, while you are being so realistic and all - don't forget that the ability to feed the people of BC is what the "disneyesque" ALR is all about. Of course I know that hard core "freepers" and capitalists, like yourself, consider the very idea of eating a healthy and adequate diet hopelessly "utopian".

I with you Gavin, little Davey did more for this province in three years than anyone other than WAC before him who had twenty years at the tiller. Of course the Neo-Constipated like to blame Davy for all that's wrong, even though he hasn't been in government for over thirty years - and anything else bad, if Davy didn't do it - Moe and Glen musta done it!

The Liberals are very successfully slimey in making their own land grabs appear to be "treaty making" and thus turning any of their critics into anti-First Nations racists by default - pretty amazing when you consider how racist the core of their party actually tends to be. Non middle aged white men are only good to some folks when they can be exploited, and that includes women, First Nations, South Asians and Chinese.

I think part of the LieBeral success lies with the fact that they have so many scams going at once that especially with a compliant lapdog press, the public can't even hope to keep up with their larceny. Think PPP's on every stretch of stream with head, think the privatization of BC Gas, think the partnership with Alcan against the interests of the people of BC, think the subsidization of the German medical system via BC Ferries, think the sheer numbers of legal matters the Attorney General has to negotiate while protecting the interests of government, cronies and relatives, and I'm just scratching the surface........ouch it's enough to hurt anybody's head........

And then they have those like R/Man who roll over and beg for more "good government."

no happy

I'm not inferring anything about what the First Nations people are or have done - that's their business - as I pointed out right at the beginning. Did you bother to read that or not? It is Gordon Campbell who created this farce – not the Tsawwassen

A lot of other material on the subject of the treaty process and its costs WAS brought up and I offered some views.

My point is, in the end, that CAROLE JAMES and the NDP are wrong to vote yes in the legislature for a treaty which dooms ALR land WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. Period. I would feel the same if the land were being ceded to Marty Zlotnik to replace the Pt Grey Golf Course if it were done in secret and behind closed doors and at odds with what is arguably the most important element of our future as a province. The fisheries in much of the Strait are already ruined beyond saving - industrial needs can be accommodated elsewhere and this sacrifice of ALR land plays to Campbell and his friends and not the Tsawwassen.

Call me in 10 years and we'll talk.

There's that yammer

But I hope you noticed that the benefit comes with a big mortgage (from the costs of the treaty negotiations themselves) which starts to accrue interest the moment an agreement in principle is signed. The devil, as is so often the case - is in the details.

Love Me Two Times

Lynn managed to state the main issue of this article and thread very succintly and accurately with:

Maybe if I extract it, bold it and repeat it even barely functioning minds will be able to grasp the reality around us..........

Suspension of a hero!

I could not copy and paste in my earlier article as the limit is 3,000 characters or something but here is what I extracted today.

NDP suspends local MLA

By Phil Melnychuk
Staff Reporter
Sep 12 2007
Michael Sather, NDP representative for Maple Ridge-Pitt Meadows, knew something would happen, he didn't quite know what, when. Friday at noon, though, he got the word he'd been kicked out of NDP caucus for a few months for his opposition to the Tsawwassen First Nations treaty. Sather opposes it because it includes agricultural land in the settlement and he plans on voting against the treaty when it comes to the B.C. legislature this fall for ratification. He knew he'd have to pay some kind of penalty. "I wasn't sure what was going to happen," he said Monday. When party leader Carole James announced the suspension, it didn't come as a complete surprise. "Not really, because I had been warned that if I continued to say I would vote against the treaty I would be suspended." He talked to Delta North MLA Guy Gentner on Thursday. Gentner guessed that Sather might just lose his role as intergovernmental affairs critic. Sather's not sure when he'll be reinstated, either at the end of the current session or, he's heard, maybe not until February. Despite his suspension, he maintains that a free vote, allowing MLAs to vote according to their conscience, is the way to go. "A free vote would be a good idea. I still think it was a good idea. "I think we should hear both sides of the issue with the ALR [Agricultural Land Reserve] and the treaty issue." James, in her statement, said Sather's out only until the end of the fall sitting. "We regret that his actions have forced this decision. Nevertheless, the NDP caucus is firm that decisions taken by caucus are to be respected and upheld." She said opposing the treaty "would take B.C. backwards on the journey towards reconciliation with First Nations." While he serves his suspension, Sather is cut off from the NDP e-mail and phone call loop, can't attend any party meetings and can't use the research staff in the legislature. The party is also saying he can't speak in the legislature, but Sather plans on doing exactly that.” But I intend to speak in the house against the treaty." Sather said earlier that he knew from the start he'd be opposing the treaty because of its inclusion of farmland as the settlement. With concerns about global warming, food security and urban sprawl, "This is not the way we should be doing treaties." He doesn't see any parallel to a future Katzie First Nations treaty, noting the land in Delta was Crown land expropriated in 1968 for the planned superport at Point Roberts. "I had a ton of support" from local voters, Sather said, adding he hopes that will work in his favor next election and that he could use the help.

Any thoughts?

Good for Sather

Don't wait up for a reply from caucus Sylvia - the nonsense about the NDP voting against this treaty and its disposal of ALR lands would be a threat to the 'treaty' process is total nonsense.

Instead of changing her mind, the leader seems determined to make things worse.

It depends who does it

Its only sacred when the liberals take it out of the ALR. When the ndp overuled thier own Land Commision in 1998 to pull land out of the ALR for thier buddies to develop into a Golf Course it was condidered " In the Provincial interest"

Just goes to show where thier priorities are. Can you guys spell HYPOCRITES

I just don't know anymore..

Can anyone tell me if this is the worst time in British Columbia politics? I was not too keen on politics until the Treaty as I minded my own lil business and lived day by day!

I recall Mr. Campbell took the proposed Nisga'a Treaty to court and look now, he could be my adoptive brother. NO THANKS! HE SPEAKS WITH A FORKED TONGUE! Good night, all!

happy

What year is it?

What government is in power?

What is this article about?

Who has been criticizing the NDP leader?

Kindly give your head a shake.

Shaking head now ..

I was merely pointing out to the Faithful that thier champions have thier hands just as dirty as the enemy. You NEVER miss a chance to dig up old dirt, but according to your new rule only current events are to be discussed. I'll keep that in mind. I was actually hoping some other poster besides you would venture an opinion for a change on this subject I brought up but the scilence is deafining

pardon my spelling errors

should be Nisga'a and question

keep shaking

As I said, If you can find anywhere on this thread where I've said I agreed with NDP policy in this case I'll freely admit to being a hypocrite. As a matter of fact, my criticism of Ms James pretty much amounts to calling her and the caucus hypocrites - or didn't you notice?

When the NDP are in power again I'll take them to task for their mistakes as government too.

However, right now, most of the damage is being done by Gordon Campbell's 'government' so you'll pardon me if I use most of my energy on him.

Shakin all over

Green Onions wasn't it?
Wasn't accusing you Mr West. I made a point of suggesting perhaps some other poster might have something to share but...

Jeepers Mr. UnHappy

Have you read any of this thread or the article at the top? Many people have posted many points of view besides Mr. West. Sharing ideas with you seems like pouring salt water on the desert, if you get my drift...............

BTW, this article and thread is not about building golf courses in the desert. Did you know John A. MacDonald had a drink of booze once or twice and probably all that is wrong with Canada is because of that. Well except for all the bad stuff Moe and Glen did.

kootcoot people like you

kootcoot people like you when you have nothing of substance revert back to a part of history that the CanWest media, Gordo, big biz, politically assassinated a good and decent man over a porch and in the end he was acquitted of all charges!
Do you see anything in the local rags about Stonedwally's brother who is involved in someway a real-estate criminal investigation?
How about the criminal BC Rail scandal from Dec 28, 03 court case Monday morning 17 September 2007 at 9:00 AM.
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
I'll be there as I'd hope many 100's more will be there also because now our BC Rail has become part of the SPP plans
Tsawwassen, BCR, are all connected to the demise of Democracy by greedy corrupt Corporations. Documentary on Shaw ch4 in three parts, part 2 tonight
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57567
SPP's nothing in the CanWest media, Why?

Definition

ALR

I know what encourage means. It doesn't mean any more than encourage.

Still not a fan of due process and the rule of law I see

It's a strong tradition here in British Columbia - even among us pinko socialists R/Man.

Perhaps you'd like a little background on what 'due process' was involved in the ALR case that happy has been talking about. You see, he really doesn't know what he's talking about in that case either.

I'm kinda busy now though - so it'll have to wait - suffice to say the comparison between the current situation and that one is not at all apt.

ALR and Aboriginal Title: Complementary or Antagonistic?

--Happy

I have argued at slightly greater length in my own blog that preserving the precious alluvial soil that has accumulated over many centuries is fundamentally congenial to the First Nations outlook. I believe that this is so even without extensive agriculture prior to European contact. While some people like to portray the ALR as an "imposition" on aboriginal title, it is probably the ALR that prevented a few middle aged Socreds with wide ties and bad suits from developing that land long ago.

Furthermore, whether First Nations felt a need to engage in cultivation was a function of population pressures: that is why agriculture was so highly developed in some Amerindian civilizations in what is now Latin America. Needless to say, population pressures are what necessitated the negotiation of treaties, and are also what necessitated the creation of the ALR.

Still not a fan of due process and the rule of law

I made no such comment West and you're out of line for suggesting such. I cut and pasted your quote from the Law and quoted the pertinent word.

Seems like the socialists now want to tell the Indians what to do. Great. Go for it. Make it perfectly clear that a 'pure' NDP government, purged of a conciliatory Carole James, will stipulate under 'sacred' Law (Lynne's beautiful confession) as to how any land in Land Settlements shall be utilized.

Thanks for the clarification, Mark.

Even Mark Crawford professorially advises us that, "...preserving the precious alluvial soil that has accumulated over many centuries is fundamentally congenial to the First Nations outlook. ..."

Yeah man, you know what the natives are thinking deep down right?

Can't you see that this is paternalistic? They've grown up now. They voted and your side lost. Next.

My side didn't lose r'man

We all lost. The law lost; justice is a loser; equity has been ignored, and the future of the Earth comes up second best once again. If you don't think these kinds of compromises with the truth are inimical to the interests of every human being, First Nations or otherwise, well, I feel really sorry for you. This wasn't a contest...it was, and is, a crime and a disaster. And we don’t have that many chances left. I have a family r’man – I want them and their children (if and when they have them assuming they haven’t been rendered infertile by what we’ve done to the air and the food we eat) to have a decent future. You apparently couldn’t care less about the future. For shame.

Like everything the criminal system you worship does: and the lies it then spins in an attempt to make its servants 'feel' good.

The rule of law requires that the law of the land on the disposition of ALR land be respected and observed. It has been usurped by the Campbell kleptocrats for commercial gain and profit. Can't you understand even 'that' simple concept?

This is not a hard decision - supporting the preservation of ALR lands and the operation of the law as regards their disposition doesn't mean these lands shouldn't be ceded to the TFN.

As far as I can tell, you're the one who wants to treat TFN people paternalistically by giving them a 'pass' that no one else would get. It’s time to get real, realisticman.

The NDP needs a new Leader

The NDP needs a new Leader NOWand say "ENOUGH" who will take all these crooks out into the light, in other words USthe Public, and light a fire under CanWest's butt to show their true colours as they are guilty of complacency and obstruction of justice in the West!
Gordo and gang have sold their souls and for what? The greater population of BC can't stand the site of his treacherous DUIface glad standing at the opening of the container port in Prince Rupert on 12/09/07 as this is part and parcel of another slimy secretive (cowardly) piece of the SPP's Corporate take over of Democracy! With the help and blessings of our Courts it seems (as witnesed in BC's Basi, Verk, Basi court case now almost 4yrs have passed, anyone who can show up at this pre-trial hearing on the biggest scandal in the history of BC will be at SCBC in Vancouver on Sept 17, 2007 @ 9am) http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
http://houseofinfamy.blogspot.com/

I believe that they the

I believe that they the SPP's will implode from the shear imbalances and the physics involved as they only see $$$$$ signs and big Humvies, huge monster houses (not homes) private jets, huge yachts, etc "He who gains the world but loses his soul is lost"!
http://publicpowerbc.ca/get-involved
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7427022351584640827
Long, but a great eye opener!

happy Friday!

Yep! I am still around and off to Terrace to look for some new thoughts and some new experiences..I will post my response to the minds of those who still need educating on these issues, we are available for comments, good or bad!
Cheers to all and enjoy the free beautiful weather!

An object of power

realisticman,

There are many meanings to the word "sacred" besides the traditional religious one. "Protected", "of great significance or importance", "reserved for exclusive use" are others.

Shamanism considers "the sacred object" to be "a power object".... which is more what I was suggesting. Why give your power away when it can be yours for the taking?

I do think that Mark Crawford makes some good points that the ALR has been craftily marketed by the corporatistas to appear as "an imposition".... and an obstacle - when, really, it is the keys to the kingdom and the future. It's just that the corporistas want to unlock the ALR - and change the long term vision and the real wealth, embedded there into a short term "development" gain for themselves.

Mark Crawford also makes an excellent point in that our population pressures, (and I would include as well an economic system fueled by greed... by bigger and bigger.... and more and more), has necessitated an ALR.

(Paul Shepard in a wonderful book "The Tender Carnivore and The Sacred Game" makes a brilliant and imaginative case against what has become massive, "industrialized" farming...how it has disconnected us from the natural world and made man resent nature's own unique tempo.)

Whose Paternalism?

Even Mark Crawford professorially advises us that, "...preserving the precious alluvial soil that has accumulated over many centuries is fundamentally congenial to the First Nations outlook. ..."

Yeah man, you know what the natives are thinking deep down right?

Can't you see that this is paternalistic? They've grown up now. They voted and your side lost. Next.
------------------------------------------
NO I wasn't positing a false consciousness on the part of the Tsawwassen band council or Band majority, or paternalistically telling them what was good for them. I can quote many First Nations authors who speak of land as a gift of the creator, and the parcelling and commodification of land as inimical to FN traditions. The idea of the land as something to be preserved in balance with nature and shared as a common resource is a native tradition.

Saying that natives have "grown up" sounds paternalistic to me. What I am pointing out is how economic oppportunity is being structured, primarily by the Liberal Government. If the FNs do turn around and sell all or most of this land to the Deltaport Expansion it will be billed as a "Win Win" , but there are other (and I think better ) "Win WIns" that could have been negotiated. This reminds me of the pattern whereby a class of natives are made to feel that their best economic opportunity lies in open-net aquaculture--notwithstanding the conflict with protecting wild salmon. They make perfectly rational choices--given the way that their opportunities are structured.

We should promote a native sense of ownership and participation in the ALR. It is theirs, as much as it is ours.

Well put Mark and you too Lynn

I guess it's necessary to spell out in very clear terms exactly WHAT IS WRONG WITH this deal and the way it was arrived at.

The Tsawwassen First Nation and Chief Baird were NEVER looking for traditional territorial lands to hunt, fish and live on, they wanted jobs and money…remember that, it’s important: JOBS and MONEY.

As Mark Crawford has pointed out, there were lots of other ways that Campbell could have offered jobs and money…he could even have thrown in the 200 hectares of ALR land (without the fiddle) to sweeten the deal.

But, no way was Gordon Campbell going to do that. No way in the world because Gordon Campbell has had another agenda from the very start…from the moment that the people of British Columbia turned down his dishonest referendum he has been looking for opportunities to advance HIS agenda and the agenda of his friends. Gordon Campbell’s buddies in the mining industry, his friends in the forest industry, his old partners in the development business and the road building business all told him: ‘Gordon, this uncertainty is costing us money. I don’t care what you do, but you’ve got to settle these land claims and get the damn Indians off our backs.’

And that’s precisely what Gordon Campbell has done – under orders from the folks who induced him to break his promises over the sale of BC Rail – under orders from the mining companies and the oil companies and the road builders association – Gordon has been desperate to settle certain key land claims deals AND make the necessary transfers of power and property to the folks who put him into position at the head of the Socred (whoops, BC Liberal ) Party and bought him the 2005 election.

It is those friends - the same people with the gateway vision of dollar signs in their eyes who worked in collusion with Gordon Campbell to take valuable, prime farmland and turn it over to the Deltaport expansion for loads of money and probably a few jobs.

There are lots of other ways that Campbell could have offered jobs and money - and even the ALR land but, under the treaty terms - as you should know if you had been paying attention - lands transfered to Bands as part of Treaty settlements become private property owned by the band and operated under all the laws of British Columbia. They do not become federal Indian Reserve lands.

As such the land would have fallen under the jurisdiction of the ALR commission

That's what this is all about. BC could have offered money and jobs and even other land but Premier Gordon Campbell wanted a quick and easy way to get that ALR land removed to expand the port and park more containers from China on it.

And that's why the land had to be transferred

And that's why the land had to be transferred out of the ALR as part of the treaty - so that it could go, more or less directly - into the hands of corporate cronies with better suits (than the old Socreds) as part of the coveted Deltaport expansion/Gateway deal.

The original deal would have seen the TFN have the same rights as anyone else with land gained in the ALR - they could apply to remove it and make their best case.

Instead, Campbell used the TFN to get the Deltaport expansion which was his only real reason for negotiating this deal and avoiding the ALR designation.

The Tsawwassen were just the vehicle to move the land over to the people Campbell wanted to have it all along.

Simple and very very sleazy!

Hope Springs Eternal

On the other hand, perhaps we shouldn't jump to conclusions. The Tsawwassen band may decide not to completely alienate the land, but lease it--and they may decide to lease only a portion of it, keeping the rest in the ALR. It doesn't seem likely, since the negotiations seem to have pinned too much of the Band's economic future on the development of this land. But one can always hope that a suitable compromise can still be worked out....

Hope's good. I have this business proposal Mark

In addition, you sound like just the kind of person I'd like to contact about it...

When can we meet? You only have to put up $65,000. in earnest money. I also have some excellent deals in the Niger Delta...just heard about them today from an associate in Kaduna. Satisfaction guaranteed!

As you say, hope springs eternal ...and Marty Zlotnik is still trying to get gordon to swap a chunk of Pacific Spirit Park for his beloved University links....

Actually, Mark Crawford

I'm sure you know I'm kidding. I really wish there was some way to turn this around but, given what the government is actually up to...I really doubt it.

The Opposition's performance has been so incompetent generally and so awful on this file that I've had conversations with a dozen people in the past two weeks who have pretty much given up hope unless they find a new leader.

These are people who stuck with the party in the dark days after 2001...

Finding a New Leader

Fine--as long as you don't mean Adrian Dix. One thing that our opponents have been right about in this discussion is to invoke Six-Mile Ranch and the memory of a NDP Government that was focused on MONEY and JOBS. Environmentalists were the "enemy" and the ALR was an obstacle. And Clark et al were very lukewarm to the treaty process until about 1998 when Clark decided Nisga'a was good politics after all. (Although he deserves credit for driving the deal to a successful conclusion thereafter.)It would be easy to imagine Clark-Dix-Gunton engineering a deal not unlike the one we are discussing.