Learn from Eagle Ridge Bluffs?

Will we learn from Eagle ridge? Quite the opposite I am afraid. What government has learned I fear is to respond as it did to wide based coalitions of people. I guess its easy when a group of nutso lefties stomp and protest to the usual things. But in cases such like this they use the heavy hand of the Law to it's advantage. Yes we can revere the likes of Ghandi, Nelson Mandella and a host of others. But the doctrane of not in my back yard applies even in issues such as this. Thanks Rafe for bringing this to our attention. I am not sure of it's effectiveness but at least we can read of the issue and learn I hope.

Campbell the Green Devil

It is now understood that Campbell, on the advice of the Road Builders Association and their ilk, sold BC Rail because of their fear of a successful Vancouver to Whistler Passenger service. A 6 or 8 times a day passenger service would then negate the need for a massive highways construction program, as now is happening along the Sea to Sky Highway.

Not only a BC Rail Passenger service, but AMTRAK was seriously investigating a Portland to Whistler train as well.

With the sell off of BC Rail and the anti-passenger stance of CN Rail, no passenger service and a massive highways building program.

We had the passenger train to do it too, the Talgo 'tilt' train which is able to take sharp corners faster and in comfort.

For about $250 million in investment for new infrastructure, we could have had a 'Green' rail alternative.

What is the cost to the taxpayer of Sea to Sky? $1 billion? Is it 'Green'? (No!)Will it be safer? (?)

Me thinks Mr. Campbell is not 'Green' but the old pollution spewing 'red' devil as always.

Time = Money : Leader = Inspiration

One is the mantra of the 'manager'.

The other is the way that whole movements of people working together achieve more.

The blocking of the road constructions cost money and was a 'management' problem, a thing.

The total lack of respect for the ground we live on, messing up our nest with more and more roads (of dubious long-term value given that the motor-vehicle's {as we know it} days are numbered.), so that the diriest of systems, the single occupant motor-vehicle, can continue to move unhindered ~ just in time for the winter party festival! Of course.

This equates to poor leadership, for there is nothing inspired at all about such a plan.

We have a group of 'managers' at the helm of the province, not inspiring leaders.

You're so right...

Rafe. About the govenments supply of unbeatable legal tools at hand. Just look what's happening with the Trial of Basi-Virk-Basi. Stall, Stall. Refuse to hand over evidence. It's over 3 years now and still no trial. And I submit here that there will never be one. Yet they can swiftly send Harriet Nahanee to her death.
And I refuse to retract that statement.
Have a look at BCMary's blog and see how justice can crawl like a snail when it suits the government.

Remember Harriet Nahanee

Right on Rafe!

MLA's are able to confuse the messages they receive from constituents because for every position taken by one group there will always be a counter (pro government) force in he constituency. Even if he/she gets a thousand calls and letters from one side it never adds up to a majority of constituents. So there is always an escape.

There is also the price that an MLA will pay for going against the grain. Within the party elite that price is very long lasting. Even if the electorate finds one with backbone, the person will not get the nomination the next time.

The solution is to vote only for independents. If you get enough of them then the next problem is how to decide who will govern. I just don't see the parties changing their MO's ever.

Betty Krawczyk

Betty Krawczyk just received 10 months, and the judge refused to count time served.

This afternoon Mr. Zhang will be sentenced for killing a man in a hit and run. He also violated his bail while awaiting trial. The judge in that case has already asked for a report as to whether Zhang is suitable for a conditional sentence. Looks like taking a life is viewed as less serious than contempt of the judges who make contemptible decisions.

Always wondered why B.C. Rail needed to be "sold"

Grumpy:

Very useful new information you've posted here.

I hope you'll talk more about this factor in relation to the unpopular transfer of B.C. Rail from public ownership into private ownership.

Your comments are welcome at http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

If you'd rather comment privately, my e.mail is:

Thanks. Thanks also to Rafe.

10 months for Betty K.

Now maybe people will understand how serious Olympic organizations are.

You can't use old tools to fight modern era battles.

Learning what you are really up against and spreading information around the world is the only way to make inroads.

Traditional violent protest won't work regarding 2010.

dumb politicians and environmental heroinesthe enviroment

Well the people of B.C. can rest easier today....the dangerous Betty Krawczyk has been sentenced to 10 mos. in jail!

Oh and Harriet Nahanee-we don't have to worry about her trying to spoil our drive to the Olympics anymore.

Who cares about the eagles and other creatures...they can just move on or die..we need this road!

With politicians trying to "out green" themselves these days, it seems strange that decisons to destroy the bluffs would be made by whatever process and decison making procedure the politicians choose to go by. But what is happening is that most politicians are only green when it suits their purposes i.e....trying to get votes.

What is really going on is the last big push to get through environmentally destroying projects before it becommes so politically unpopular that they just cannot do it and stay in power.

Look at what's happening here in the Lower Mainland:
-the Gateway Project-taking away agricultural land and creating even more traffic,
-the expansion of the Roberts Bank Port-this will destroy the marine environment of the surrunding bay,
-the proposed railyard for the Roberts Bank Port-again using agricultural land,
-the settling of the Twass. First Nation treaty using land from the ALR,
-the propoed desruction of farmland and habitiat now called Southlands{formerly the Spetifore lands}into housing..this is supposedly "smart growth"

The community that will be impacted the most by this development is South Delta. We are standing up to the proposed destruction of our community!

We are organizing a rally on Mar. 31 at the East Delta Hall with over 30 community groups to try to tell again the Federal/Provincial political policy and decision makers that we want to save our environment and community and do not want these projects. We are fighting to save
our community, agricultural land, habitat and environment.

Many of us are inspired by Betty Krawczyk and Harriet Nahanee...and many are wondering how far they will go.

Campbell afraid of the public

While our troops are dying in Afghanistan, under the guise, dying for freedom, Campbell and his band of thugs take their anger out on 80 year old women who have the audacity to stand up for him.

What a bunch of moral cowards. And I have nothing but disdain for the provincial court system, 10 months for an old woman 'getting up your nose' but drug dealers, car thieves and 100's of other petty felons get off with a slap on the wrist.

I hope someone is letting the IOC in on this shameful government, which largely reflect the shameful population who vote for them. If anyone who voted Liberal supports this and doesn't speak out, they are without a moral compass and the

.

The gulag exists, where political prisoners are treated most severely and where drug dealers are not!

Know your enemy - SunTzu

It still surprises me that more attention has not been focused on Olympic sponsors.

How many of you drive GM vehicles, use a Visa card, shop at Rona, HBC, or bank at the RBC, or patronize a dozen other Olympic sponsors like NBC or CTV?

If you do, you're contributing to the problem.

I'm not suggesting that you should boycott these companies, but how many of you have sent an email message to them to ask them for support, or at least to ask them how they feel about Harriet or Betty K? Why are you prepared to let them off the hook so easily?

Have you sent an email to communities in other parts of the world who are contemplating hosting an Olympic Games?

The reason Olympic sponsors get involved is to boost their visibility and increase share prices. In the past they were not concerned about negatively impacting a local community because the local community didn't have a way to talk about their plight to the rest of the world.

Well now you do.

YouTube is a mainline to the world.

If one thousand people here send one thousand email or video messages to Olympic sponsors and prospective host cities it will have an impact when the IOC starts negotiations for the next Olympic Games.

Can you imagine what the outcome would have been here if you received messages from citizens in Athens in 2002 telling you what they were going through? Maybe you might have actually voted in the plebiscite.

It didn't happen overnight to people in Athens. They saw it coming years in advance, but were powerless to stop it in the same manner you feel powerless.

They also were not as lazy as our local media made them out to be, so don't even pretend that you are better than they are. That's a cop out. If you believe they brought it on themselves how do you explain the huge deficit in Salt Lake City or Turin? Is the whole world lazy except Vancouver? It's not smart to throw stones from East Hastings & Main.

What do you think the world will say about Vancouverites in 2011 if 2010 suffers the same financial consequence?

Our current situation aside, the odds are great that 2010 will be an economic washout considering that the last three Olympic events have accrued deficits of $1.2 billion in Salt Lake City, $12 billion in Athens, and the hidden costs are so high in Turin that one year later they still can't figure it out. None of these regions have received tourism related or capital investment benefits that even remotely make up for the economic loss, plus they all suffered from the effects of gentrification.

You're not as unique as you think.

Think local act global.

Bottom Line

Contrary to what Rafe would have you believe, nobody really cared all that much about this.

I have several friends and associates from West Vancouver. Most of them appreciated the idea of having a faster ride to Whistler and Garibaldi. This really was a non-issue for most.

Again, you had the vocal minority here. Some were environmental activists, others were pissed about their view being distorted. None really had the support of the community.

Most people in West Van recognize that Whistler is vital to our province's future - and that we needed a new road. These same people can't justify the massive increase in cost to tunnel through the bluff.

In the end, not enough people cared. In fact, most I know supported it. It goes back to that survey - while over 50% of respondents believed the environment to be the biggest issue - less than 50% would pay more taxes to pay for it.

Reality, plain and simple.

Capitalism

"Most people in West Van recognize that Whistler is vital to our province's future"

??? I'd be interested to know how Whistler is vital to our future. It's a nice place to visit, but vital to our future? Overstating it a tad, methinks.

if you're elderly and a

if you're elderly and a grandmother you should be allowed to break laws? nice gig. only on the left coast.

if you're elderly and a

if you're elderly and a grandmother you should be allowed to break laws? nice gig. only on the left coast.

Good Job Judge

Mair makes it sound in this article like Krawczyk broke the law just this once, when in fact she has made a career, or in her case a retirement hobby, out of protesting, getting arrested, and flouting the law. Not to mention promising judges to stay away from the protests and then going back the next day to continue her hobby.

This woman doesn't seem to get it. Maybe 10 months heading up the prison knitting club will knock her back to reality.

I wonder if she'll make as big of a fuss getting hauled to jail this time as she does at the protests?

Who was angry?

Grumpy

I don't think the Government was angry at all. The courts are set up to avoid that stuff happening. An angry Government would have disappeared her in the middle of the night.

You are absolutely right. Drug Dealers and car thieves should definitely get longer sentences than 10 months. They used to hang horse thieves, didn't they?

More reality plain and simple.

The other reality is that Whistler is the playground for Vancouver’s rich folks and who needs the government’s largess in the form of a billion dollar highway more than these unfortunates. God forbid they should have to drive cautiously on a two-lane highway to get to their condos for a weekend skiing which the rest of us can't afford. You gotta keep these liberal voters happy. Let the rest “eat cake”. Right Capitalism?

Betty should stick to knitting just cause she's old enough to be retired. Retired people should be looking after their grandchildren and not heard. Right poindexter?

Not just an environmentalist

Harriet Nahanee was also one of the witnesses in the residential school abuse, sex crimes and murder. Her death should be regarded with a modicum of suspicion. See
http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/

Firstly

I will go on record and say I agree with the decision...

I also agree with Krawczyk to jail for 10 months. If this was an isolated occasion, I'd give her little more than a slap on the wrist. If it occurred a couple of times, I'd fine her.

You can't pick and choose what laws you choose to obey. Tax evasion has very stiff penalties. People may not agree with how the government spends their money - this does not entitle them to cheat on their taxes.

You can't continually hold a legal activity hostage, whether you agree with it or not. You don't like it, protest, drum up community support. In the end, not enough people cared. Krawczyk and others cost the province millions in delays.

No different than a Wall Street crook. Both deserve to spend some time in the slammer.

History please!

Poindexter, Elliot and Cappy. Civil disobedience is part of the democratic process and has been used by every movement for social progress going all the way back to the Abolitionists. That we are still treating civil disobedience practitioners as though they were common criminals shows how backward and barbaric the laws are.

didn't know you were a

didn't know you were a teacher anarcho. they, along with 'environmentalists' are allowed to do just about anything they want in the name of civil disobedience. these eagleridge protesters didn't have the support of many, but insisted on breaking the law anyway. in the teachers case they only had public support until the public realized that the illegal strike was about nothing more than the politic interests of the marxist bctf'ers. we're not talking about human or civil rights here anarcho, in fact none were violated.

2010 Olympics - null and void

I've nothing against sporting activities and athletes of all levels doing their thing to the best of their abilities. However, athletes doing their thing is the mere tip of the ice berg when it comes to the 2010 Olympics.

Who would buy a car based on an inspection of just the wheels ? That is what the majority of British Columbians see in the Olympics - they see the raa-raa-raa, the flag waving and patriotism [wheels] but care not to look at the body of the beast.

Open your eyes British Columbia - you are being conned at the worst used car dealership in Canada, owned by David Podmore and Jack Poole and being served to you by Gordon Campbell the salesman.

Five minutes off the lot and the shit heap will fall apart !

Evidence please?

I don't recall any surveys or polls taken at the time, If so pls enlighten me.

As for teaching

Yes, Eliot I am a qualified BC secondary school teacher (among other things) But while doing my practicum I realized how much I did not like it, how stressful it is, so never bothered to get a teaching job, finding construction work a lot easier on the emotions though harder on the body. So I do sympathize with teachers, though it is obvious that you do not.

Accountability (Again)

Since Rafe lives in Lions Bay it’s not surprising that he would have a stronger opinion than most people about the Eagleridge Bluffs controversy. Almost every infrastructure project in B.C. raises environmental issues, and it’s still not clear to me why this one got so much attention, as it is a very small part of the entire Sea-to-Sky highway project. I have been driving a commercial vehicle on average once a week between Vancouver and Whistler, and I wish I could take every person in B.C. for a narrated drive along that route, so they could see for themselves the impact of a project of this scale and perhaps ask the same questions I am about how we choose to apply our capabilities. The amount of traffic alone should raise some serious questions.

As for the other issue, we all know that we do not have government for or by the people and that there is really no such thing as consultation. There is no need to debate that point. Now we need some serious remedies.

We should be sending a message to the political establishment that the current party political system is no longer acceptable because it clearly is not accountable to the people.

I don't think so Cappy

Have you seen this poll?

http://www.robbinssceresearch.com/polls/poll_166.html

It's the BC Liberals who don't care, not the people of B.C.

Furthermore, Krawczyk, was charged with criminal contempt

And yet she wasn't permitted the option of trial by jury instead of judge alone.

That in itself is undemocratic and counter to what could be seen as thge principles of natural justice.

Harriet's supporters have

Harriet's supporters have set up a blog:

http://harrietspirit.blogspot.com/

Thank you!

Thank you for posting the blog. Just as I thought, there is something fishy about Harriet Nahanee's death. But no matter what her Warrior Spirit will live on!

When the Strong protest they

When the Strong protest they call it diplomacy or War. When the Weak protest they call it disobedience or Terror. First they ridiculed you, now they fight you but tomorrow you will be remembered as having common sense. I'm glad to say I voted for Betty in my old riding of Vancouver Quadra during the last federal election.

Cappy's social science

Really scientific sampling, Cappy. And where is your proof for the second statement? Seems like the survey mentioned above pretty well negates that view.

Corp media sold this story short as usual

I see the big three did a fine job of side stepping the real issue in presenting the story of Bettys sentencing today.

That issue is the use of injunctions to stop eco-protests. Then when you break an injunction, your guilty of contempt of court.
Criminal contempt doesn't permit a defence of any kind you are gulty and you cannot plead your case or the facts. There are no constitutional or legal provisions to defend against these charges. Its draconian and offensive. Its sole purpose is to abuse authority and anyone that isn't a corporation.

Why is the media so afraid to tell this the simple fact? This the essence to the whole issue. This is Bettys legacy fight, to force the use of the law and not injunctions.

CTV characterized the days events fairly accurately, yet they refused to speak to the crux of the issue at hand. Instead they interview the chief prosecutor who blindly states "nobody is above the law." blah blah blah. I'm sure madam justice brownnoser was digging deep looking for an old law where they could publicly malign Betty and bring out the cat-0-9-tails for a graphic flogging.

CTV made a big hoopla about a sex criminal and a street racer regarding sentences received relative to Bettys 10 months, but refused to lay the foundation of the injustice she was protesting, that being the use of injunctions to accomplish the brute force nature of the contempt law obscenely abused in these cases without ever a day in court where the facts of the original protest can be disputed.

Instead they spend much time adding up her numerous charges and years in jail, her lack of remorse, making sure that she is made to look like she is flaunting "the law." Endlessly do they evade the fact that no "law" ever applied to her actions, only injunctions. Media assumes their dummyied down public demographic can't comphrehend this distinction. Sadly they are correct, but more troubling is that they just dont care.

follow the $$$

In the end this woman has been crushed under the 'wheel of progress'.

I certainly hope that her supporters recognize that the 'party politic' is at least somewhat responsible for this and can bring themselves to help an Independant MLA as much as they have railed against this mockery of 'law'.

Shall we not listen so well in the future?

Two choices

gordon

Either stop her using the courts or use less desirable options. Take your pick. Which do you prefer? The highway is going to be built either way.The vast majority of people really don't care. 100 - 130 people (protesters} don't really constitute a majority of opinion.

Campbell's laws

Get caught doing naughty stuff in a questionable governmental $billion dollar railway deal; time to court - three years and counting.

Get caught protesting a questionable political highway deal; time to court, less than 1 year - sentence 10 month.

Get caught road racing and kill someone; time to court 2 years - sentence 2 years conditional.

Get caught seducing young school age teenage girls and having sex; time to court 20 years - sentence 2 years house arrest.

Get caught DUI abroad - well we know the story and why we don't talk about our Teflon Premier!

It seems if you a BC citizen and protest an in power government you get quick court time and a harsh sentence. Go figure!

news alert!!!! all citizens

news alert!!!! all citizens over 65 years and/or grandparents need not follow the law any longer!!!!

Murdock quote: "We have a

Murdock quote: "We have a group of 'managers' at the helm of this province, not inspiring leaders". Very true and profound Murdock. That reality is the crux of what is wrong with this province.

oops, i forgot to include

oops, i forgot to include public school teachers.

and the 5% of british

and the 5% of british columbians who don't like the olympics.

hey g; how many identities

hey g; how many identities do you have on this thread?

elliot

stop wasting bandwidth

are you g's new second

are you g's new second handle gordie? noticed your comments about the big 3 above were about as out-of-touch as his.

West Van...

...really is a different world. I grew up there. They've always breathed different air over there, whether it was BC Binning, Frank Ross, Helmut Eppich or Kevin Falcon (yep, he grew up over there too - went to Sentinel etc).

In the 60s it was different - tugboat captains lived next to captains of industry lived next to welfare moms. In the 70's things changed. No more welfare moms. Had to kick those damn Commies out of office in 1975. Salesmen with Grade 4 education ran the stock market and various distributorships and figured because they had it made in the shade that the world owed them a gated community. Pull up that drawbridge! Whaddaya mean the Lions Gate isn't a draw bridge? I've seen pictures - it looks like one!

Council was an embarrassment. When asked for an indoor swimming pool, mayor and council said "Nahhh, let them go to North Van to use their swimming pools. Why should we build them?" When older people wanted to move out of their homes and downsize, they had nearly no place to go. Only one senior's residence was approved in twenty years. Can't get ice time for the kids except at 3:00 am on Thursday morning? Too bad, pay $30,000 and join Hollyburn Country Club. If you can survive the interview. Elders had to move entirely out of their community to North Van or Vancouver if they wanted a small apartment.

Meanwhile the libertarian council kept property taxes low, and people watched in disbelief as North Van students outclassed West Van students every year in the provincial exams, mostly due to the dismal leadership at West Van high schools. Teachers with an ounce of spunk were driven out of the system.

The libertarian councils allowed higher and higher high-rises with one suite per floor to be built on the Bellevue waterfront without comment, and meanwhile British Pacific Properties continued to scar the landscape of Vancouver above the highway (doesn't it look like Mary Hill over there? No, wait - doesn't it look worse? Isn't there any shame?)

But when an Iranian family bought Park Royal, and then another Iranian family bought the homes in behind them to put up low- and mid-rises containing seniors' developments and market housing, they were excoriated as "despoilers of the beautiful gateway to West Van".

Bwahahahahaaaaaa! "Despoilers of the beautiful gateway to West Van! Hah! A plastic windmill, a mini-storage warehouse, a trailer park, and one of the most grotesque malls ever constructed comprise this "beautiful gateway". Doesn't it make you wonder what's in the water?

It's privilege. Racism. Superiority. Discrimination. Bullying. Resistance to change. Selfishness on a scale unmatched anywhere north of Ventura. Even when West Vanners go green, they do it in either a H2 or a restored Westphalia with a designer dog in the front seat, in between trips to Hawaii and Tibet.

So when it is said that "West Vanners don't care about the route of the highway", it isn't true. They do care deeply - it changes their beloved gated community. They want the world to leave them alone - they've made it, and the rest of you can go to hell. Don't put any more traffic on their highway, don't change their landscape, don't increase their housing density, don't put in watering restrictions or tell them how many garbage cans they can put out. Just bugger off.

And Falcon knows that too. That's why he was sure he could get away with it. And he did. Betty should have known.

Elliot

Are you looking for a consolation prize? Rumour has it such things are very popular with Gary Collins's friends. You'd count yourself in the group wouldn't you?

You weren't much of a hockey player either. Never could keep your stick on the ice.

All apologies to Chris B

All apologies to Chris B above, but he's likely one of only about 50 commercial trucks on that highway. There's simply no "business of the province" up at Whistler - except for Pemberton, it's all tourism.

Falcon should hang his head in shame. The South Fraser road and the Kicking Horse Pass upgrades have been badly needed for dozens of years to move the hundreds of trucks that leave Vancouver ports each day to the markets, and Falcon has to get up and defend wasting $600 million on straightening out the highway so Rodney McGlumph from Tiddleycove doesn't drive off the road when Joe Asshole from Kitsilano passes him in his Outback tossing beer cans from the window as they make their way up to their condos at Whistler after a hard week of martini-drinking on the waterfront.

Keep safe,ChrisB. Don't let the testosterone drive you off the highway.

UNDETERRED

Betty Krawczyk was jailed for fighting to save Eagleridge Bluffs from Kevin Falcon's Sea-to-Sky Highway Expansion.

Ten months in prison, the judge said, is necessary as a "deterrent" to further action – Betty's, and ours.

In spite of all the injustice surrounding her treatment, we must remember the fundamental reason why Betty is in jail now. She is there because it is fully unjust, corrupt and obscene to continue building highways through living communities, whether inhabited by eagles or humans.

That is why Betty Krewcyk is in jail, and that is why she continues to be jailed. The cruelty of her sentence and of the denial that surrounds this is secondary to the big lie behind it all. The illusion that anyone will benefit from the destruction of our planet.

We can't let this crap distract us, that will piss Betty off.

It is time to speak the truth. We shall not be deterred.

www.gatewaysucks.org

brave condemners of evil...

Elliot said: "we're not talking about human or civil rights here anarcho, in fact none were violated."

What do you mean in saying this Elliot, of course human rights were violated no matter what is "written"... We all know that.

anarcho said: "Just as I thought, there is something fishy about Harriet Nahanee's death. But no matter what her Warrior Spirit will live on!"

Absolutely anarcho, but I too believe her Warrior Spirit will live on as Betty's is living on today...

Thanks for standing up on this atrocious violation of human dignity and Rights Rafe.

Peace to the brave condemners of evil,

Bear

the 78 year old grandmother

the 78 year old grandmother refused to pay a fine and refused to do community service. she wanted to go to jail and she got what the environmentalist movement wanted. 10 months in jail. who's abusing whom here?

Actually El

She wanted a JURY trial - which as someone charged with a criminal offence - she should have had the option of choosing.

Not very democratic - eh?

nobody gets a jury trial for

nobody gets a jury trial for a less serious criminal contempt charge g. quit eating all the garbage the lefty freaks are feeding you.

Oh of course they've set the rules

Oh, of course, they've set the rules up to make that impossible - I think, if I remember rightly; it was done during the Harcourt years.

That doesn't mean it's fair. Moreover, it certainly has nothing to do with justice.

But one thing I'll thank you for, although you still haven't got a civil tongue in your mouth, you are actually trying to discuss something reasonably for the first time I can remember that wasn't involved with sports.

A great many women and men also went to jail in England and in a lot of other places, including this country before men would even give women the vote.

When real electoral democracy stops working and the people's representatives forget whose 'business' they are supposed to be doing (and substitute their own selfish an greedy interests) - principled people have always had to act…although I don’t disagree with Zalm’s point about the West Van matrons who stood on the sidelines as clapped while someone else stepped forward in their place – they certainly we’re shy about spitting into a microphone but they were well in the background when the paddy wagon arrived.

When a political system has to resort to sending the likes of septuagenarian grandmothers to jail for expressing their beliefs in public protest I think it is very clear who is behaving in a moral way.

Moreover, it's not the so-called justice system. As Rafe so eloquently pointed out - and as you have now permitted me to underline.

Fun working with you.

Thanks.

errata

should be "and" clapped not 'an' and also
should be 'weren't shy about..." etc above.

you make no sense g.

you make no sense g. everything's about 'they'. who the hell is 'they' g? everyone you disagree with? grow up. you've already proven with your multiple alias scam that you're not credible. neither is the manager of the site if he continues to allow you to post after discovering your pathetic mo. you should probably go away.

They is the people of this province all of them in fact

The forgotten folks who waste their time when they vote in elections that result in unrepresentative governments made up of people who are beholden to the interests of the corporate and media structures, which got them elected.

We pay lip service to a system that is so far from being representative of the people who work and live in this province that it is practically criminal.

As to your other point, if you'd actually taken the time to read what I post instead of flaming in here every few hours to drop an ad hominem comments and nothing but insults you'd know that the management here is fully aware of what I did with only two identities. You’re the one who ought to clarify what he is talking about – in my view, and I’d wager that of virtually everyone else who still even bothers to read your comments, it would be nice to know.

It is guys like you who think that calling people names is credible as rational debate who should go away.

I notice, nightbloom excepted, not one of your sort bothered to post a comment on last week's Mair thread when someone who really needed to go away was tearing up the place. It's not as if I didn't ask for help. You can check it out.

G - you shock me!

You actually resorted to using two handles? What was your other handle? I must say, I'm very disappointed. While I never agree with what you say, I always felt you had honour and conviction.

As for this topic, do you really feel that this grandmother isn't getting what she deserves. She wanted a jury trial to increase her profile and get some attention. G, you have to agree on this one. You don't always have to disagree with the "righties".

To your previous post (yesterday I think). I never commented on the people of BC. I commented on the people of West Van, who seemed to care little. If there is one group of people capable of making their voice heard, it is the rich folk in West Vancouver. Aside from a couple piddly protests, I rarely recall the issue being discussed and I live on the North Shore - right next to West Van.

Those polls are jaded anyway. Nobody likes to admit they care more about their pocketbook than the environment. People are hypocrites - most are.

Contempt of Minister, not court

I think you only get a choice of trials when the Crown charges you with an offense against the people. Contempt is an offense against the court and no choice is given. Once the government decided to obscure the provisions of a public contract signed by the representatives of the public on behalf of the public and a private contractor, to be paid for with the public's money and to be performed on public land, it seems only reasonable that the public would have had a right to have some say in it.

However, when the representatives of the public choose to discuss the business of the public in private, the public has no option but to sue the representatives of the public in order to be heard. Seems like kind of a stupid way to conduct public business when the easier thing to do is to consult the public, especially if you really believe all those polls you commission that tell you the public is behind you 100%.

Unless the polls are just more marketing.

I've some sympathy for the judge - damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's Falcon who is the despicable piece of business here, forcing the court to do what he should have done himself - represent the interests of the people of the province rather than hiding behind the bogus secrecy of a signed contract.

Zalm

It's a complicated question. I didn't mean to imply that the Harcourt government had invented the idea - but I think it was at that time that the route was used with the Carmanah protesters.

There has always been a Common Law right to a jury trial - which has been circumscribed by rules concerning whether the Crown decides to proceed by indictment or summary procedure.

There is an interesting discussion of this here:
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:HZXLYtdauBcJ:www.canlii.org/ca/com/chart/s-11-f.html+jury+trials+in+cases+of+criminal+contempt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

This commentary, taken from the above article, is very interesting

And, it seems to me that what's happened in this case has effectively turned the protections of both the jury trial and the Charter on its head.

But that's just me - I certainly agree with your other observations.

G -

Strike that - I wouldn't say you had honour, but you did have conviction. I thought you stood for something.

I guess one handle wasn't enough. How'd you get busted??

he was posting as alcibiades

he was posting as alcibiades as well as gwest and he was busted by either nightbloom or maestro. i also suspected as much b/c a couple of times he used exactly the same, for lack of a better word, style, to try to harass me. not only did he have two handles but he was using one to support the other. great stuff eh? nightbloom figures he has as many as five but g denies it. anyone believe him?

Cappy

Settle down and read the Boys in trouble comments - no one outed me. I never denied I posted as two names and I outed myself – exactly one year after I began using both Alci and G West.

Complete story is there for all to see. As to reasons and honour, I thought they were good ones and honour is intact. I even offered to drop GWest and Alci and pick up a new handle - GWest/Alci - but that didn't impress n/b either.

Now let us get back to business. I thing Glen Robbins' poll pretty much refutes the point you made yesterday anyway.

By the way, what do you have against him, my understanding is he's well respected in Conservative circles?

G

That is pretty bad. I found it strange that Alci kept coming to your (well, his own) defense. You were using one to support the other....

Did you purposefully write in different tones under each handle?

elliot - i certainly don't believe he only has one. he gave me a hard ride for changing my handle to Capitalism..

this is bizarre. he should be banned.

Pretty desperate cappy

You're absolutely right, Alci and G West were obviously the work of the same person from the start and everyone here except a few self-absorbed posters like Nightbloom knew it for ages. Exactly the same style, attitude and philosophy - to do anything else WOULD have been bizarre. I never tried to hide it and when the time came to reveal it to the two or three folks who didn’t know I did exactly that. A very interesting one-year experiment.

It was done for a reason - also clearly explained on that thread. And I'm really proud of never once having stooped to the kind of tactics you and El think are okay. I really dislike bullies – I almost wrote that I hate them – but that’s not my style, it’s yours.

As to posting under any other labels, how much time do you think I have? I have a business to run - just like you. Mind you, I don't go in for that gambling and drinking stuff you're so keen about either.

Nope, just two dude, and now, just one. Moreover, you still won't lay a hand on me - ever.

Juery restriction = control

Restriction of jury trials is one more method of controlling us. At one time the jurys made a lot of laws by the decisions they made, so the rulers began to restrict this possibility. Then after that they sought to restrict jury trial period. There is a fine US organization called FIJA which is trying to get those rights back. See http://www.fija.org/ Note also it is not a left-wing organization, all you left-hating obcessives. It is of the libertarian right.

“ Road To Shame’

The Judiciary here in B.C. showed us how the law thinks and functions by their incarceration of 78-year-old Betty Krawczyk.You can hit and run with a vehicle, rob, sell dope, grow dope, commit an assault during a robbery, teachers can screw little girls Stick a hand gun in some ones face and the BC courts will send you home to carry out your sentence, possibly, but unlikely an actual sentence. Does this have to be requested ? It must be, the last time I recall a criminal getting time was at his request. In order to incarcerate the repeat sex offender he will have to be convinced, to attend a protest or road blockage at a logging site, ski hill devolvement, etc, Have him ignore the courts injunction to not block , protest , or disrupt in any way. Take him on another protest, repeat the previous procedure, The violent sex offender is now a bonafide criminal. Only one problem the courts won’t act on him until he is 78 years old.. We must defend the honor of these two ladies Harriet Nahanee and Betty Krawczyk We should step back, take a second breath, then organize, or join an organization already set up. I did notice there are quite a few organizations on various sites.
Before the 2010 Olympics the world must be told of the astrocytes that have occurred here in B.C. with the jailing of these elderly ladies and The death of 71 year old Harriet Nahanee. The homelessness in our cities must be told, all the environmental damage must be told of, tell the world they will not be welcomed here, contrary , they will receive a cold reception, before and during this big farce called the Olympics. I have never , in all of my life felt so disgusted, what has occurred to these two elderly ladies here in Canada, is not only disgusting, its inhumane, Canada should and will feel shame. We can start the British Columbia, Canada “ Road To Shame’ today, now, with the use of our computers . Do let the world know what has transpired here, be relentless ,don’t quit or give up.
Make all those heavy real estate investors, the politicians, the lawyers, the judges, the bankers, that don’t give a sh!t pay and suffer losses, and they will, if we act collectively.

'Restriction of jury trials

'Restriction of jury trials is one more method of controlling us. At one time the jurys made a lot of laws by the decisions they made, so the rulers began to restrict this possibility.' what a ridiculous statement! juries are restricted in less serious offences b/c they're too costly and time consuming. even the ndp knows that. get real anarcho.

'Alci and G West were

'Alci and G West were obviously the work of the same person from the start and everyone here except a few self-absorbed posters like Nightbloom knew it for ages.' another ridiculous statement! these two must be the same poster. nobody knew it except you and whoever you confided in, if anyone. you've been caught with your hands in the cookie jar g, and it's time to admit to mommy that you've been a very bad boy and accept your punishment like a man. go away, you're not welcome here, except perhaps by a few lefties who may even be you as far as we know.

Elliot is right

You should do the honourable thing and leave G. You may or may not have ever outright denied it - you certainly never brought it to anyone's attention. I would never assume somebody was pathetic enough to sign in as two different people - and berate people like myself.

I've referred to you two as Batman and Robin - you had every opportunity to let everyone know. I feel a little annoyed that i've wasted so much time arguing with the same person.....

Now I'm sure you've got everybody questioning who's who. Were you Coyote too?

Please explain to me what makes this little experiment ok. Or if you've discussed it - point me to where I can find it. Give me a few words so I can do a Control F for it.

Shameful, deceitful and pathetic. I'm sure I speak for many Tyee posters when I say you are no longer welcome. It will bother me seeing your comments. You've lost any credibility you might have had.

Let's Demand Changes To The Laws!

It is about bloody time that people insisted that Civil Disobedience was treated differently than common crimes. In the first place, people do not commit CV unless there is some contentious issue at hand, and as you all know, such issues are a case of "it takes two to tango." The other side of the issue, the people causing the problem in the first place, should also be taken to task as well. If the courts still want to use injunctions, they should bind both sides in the dispute not just one side. The protestors agree to stop CV and the group causing the problem cease their activity as well. Then a citizens group picked by both sides could come up with a binding solution. If these sort of changes are not made we are living under a situation of legal thuggery where the strong use the power of the state to beat down the weak. The other alternative would be for all contentious issues to be settled by a binding referendum of the people in the area effected - with of course very tight spending limits to prevent one side buying the referendum vote. This is called democracy and if we actually had it instead of a form of elective dictatorship, CV would become outmoded. Put simply, CV is the result of injustice and a lack of democracy.

Cappy

Go read what I wrote. It's all spelled out there. I could care less if it upsets you. When you post that you hate the French, or immigrants, or the homeless - it upsets me - plenty.

I'm a fair fighter and you know it. And I'll best you every time we have a squabble. In an anonymous literary contest the labels I chose to call myself are irrelevant – maybellbc!
Now, that’s enough of that. David Beers knows exactly what I did and why – so let’s forget it. Just remember the next time you decide to call someone a name or condemn a whole category of folks that I’ll be watching.

As I said, I'm proud of what I stand for and believe in. I've been completely open with anyone who took the time to send me an email - I notice you've never been among them. Why?

anarcho (or are you another one of "Garth's" handles

Anarcho. I completely disagree. There may have been a time and a place for civil disobedience - not in today's world though.

Would it be civil disobedience if I stopped paying my taxes? I really don't like how our money is spent - I don't agree with it!! It's time we stopped paying tax - change the laws - slap civil disobedience on it and call it a day!

Don't be foolish. There are mechanisms in place in our great country to resolve these conficts.

Go away

I never said I hated immigrants, in fact - I've consistenly recognized their hard work, accomplishments and contribution to Canada. Don't you put those words in my mouth.

I said I hated the French once and it was a mistake. I said it was wrong and I went overboard. I've never said I hated the homeless - i've simply been less sympathetic to their needs.

You won't ever best me. You merely bore me and post links to some of your numerous left wing propaganda sites - as evidence.

You are a miserable liar. I saw on a couple of occasions Alci saying "Not that G West needs me to defend him" - that G is an implication. You implied you were an entirely different person.

You are out of touch and clueless. Now I write to you with disgust. I literally have a rotten taste in my mouth. Replace frustration with revolt.

Show me where you've outlined this. I don't have the time to find it myself.

Baloney

I also said, if you'd troubled to read what I already wrote on that other thread, that if one of the two identities G West or Alci had referred to the other at any point that they probably deserved it.

You just don't read very well: GO and refer to the whole of the comment line on the Boy Trouble thread and quit trying for your usual shortcut.

Moreover, if you still have a problem, have the courage to actually send me an email so no one else has to waste any more time with this.

I'm not your gopher.

using the term 'civil

using the term 'civil disobedience' is simply an excuse for lefties to break the law when they don't get their way. it meant something when rosa parkes and nelson mandela were practicing it against abhorrent human and civil rights abuses, but when yuppy urban environmentalists and spoiled pampered teachers use it to justify their poor behaviour they are simply cheapening the efforts of the sincerely brave crusaders who have, in some cases, even sacrificed their lives for a worthy cause. this woman deserves to be locked up for a while. she should also be barred from further protests, as she has proven she cannot abide by society's rules.

Alciwest

Anyone who hadn`t figured out the GWest Alcibiades connection by now has to have a serious case of denial or is a complete and utter moron.

"Let's learn from Eagleridge Bluffs protest."

The old ladies didn't work so we'll use babies as human shields the next time.

Missing the point.

If there were, there would be no CV. Simple, have a referendum. But there are no referenda on these issues, and the reason is to keep the people from "interfearing" with the plans of the powerful. And if you think I am G. West, I issue the same challenge to you that that I did to Nightbloom, who was too cowardly to take it up. $100 says I am not G. West. I post an email address here. You send me your email address and I send you more evidence that you could ever want that I am not G. West. Either that or don't mention it again.

Rafe Mair disappears Harriets message

Elder Harriet Nahanee's lifelong struggle was against white supremacist institutions of law and government (both of which Rafe Mair has earned a very good living working for) and their relentless attempts to colonize and erase the indigenous fact.
It was not to act as simply an Indian footsoldier for an environmental movement steeped in the same white supremacist ideology. Nowhere does Mair mention this little matter of stolen Indian land which composes our little settler state, our home on native land. Thus, the central struggle of Harriet Nahanee's life is "disappeared" and steered in death into support of BC environmentalism, this evil adjunct of land theft and Indigenous dispossession with its call for parks and preserves under white jurisdiction. Mair's tribute to Nahanee symbolizes everything she fought against.
For those truly in support of Harriet's legacy rather follow the path suggested by the Native Youth Movement: Cancellation or Boycott of the 2010 Olympic Winter Games. http://mostlywater.org/: 'Elder's Death Caused By Greedy 2010 Olympics and it's Accomplices.' No Games on Stolen Land!

Got exactly what she deserved.

No one should feel sympathy for that tiresome old fanatic Betty Krawczyk. She chose to show criminal contempt for the courts 5 times over the years; she chose to get arrested at Eagle Ridge bluffs 3 times and she openly stated she would accept nothing less than jail. This was all a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign to gain maximum exposure for Krawczyk's cause.

And for those bleating about the courts just being a tool of government/industry (Mair, a lawyer, should be ashamed for at least implying that one), I would suggest that the greens and their supporters all work really hard in the next election to get the Socialist Worker's Party or even the Green Party elected. Then you can change the laws to protect everything.

As for Rafe Mair's comment about "fair" environmental processes, that is just another green euphemism for a process that will give greens everything they demand.

As a watcher of the deep ecology movement for many years, what I am seeing here is the same old schtick. Self righteous, self absorbed individuals who think their ideas are the only ones that count and to hell with anyone who doesn't agree.

Tiresome old propaganda.

This is the same tiresome old propaganda that has been used against every group seeking human progress since 1780 and the campaign to abolish the slave trade. You retrogressive types never change your tune no matter what century it is. The rebels are always wrong, and the upholders of tyranny and injustice are always right. And I have explained very carefuly above how Civil Disobedience would be unnecessary if there was genuine democracy, ie, the people got to vote by referendum on the issues that effect them.

Thanks

Thanks, everyinchofbcis... and I understand where you are coming from. But given that maybe 40% of the population are retros like x4estworker
, and many of these same people are outright racists who deny FN rights completely, I think Rafe's article is a positive thing.

I should add, that I agree

I should add, that I agree with your statement,

above you have a perfect

above you have a perfect example of why the lefties are becoming so marginalized in canada today. (ndp at 13% in the polls) forestworker makes a logical summary of the betty krawcyk affair, and anarcho wades in with gun-blasting archaic lefty rhetoric blather. no one's taking you people seriously as you become increasingly irrelevant.

Showing his/her true colours

Thanks for your response on behalf of the looney left, Anarcho. You certainly know all the appropriate slogans and epithets.

In case you hadn't noticed, we ELECT governments to make most decisions for us, subject to REASONABLE public consultation. If they don't meet the expectations of a majority, they get thrown out. That's what democracy is generally about. Holding a referendum on every issue that certain special interest groups want to manipulate would be ludicrous.

Where does that leave the fringe lefties?? A government that represents the fringes of society won't get elected anytime soon, so I guess Betty will have to keep doing her contemptible little dog and pony show.

And of course, trying to compare some pathetic little environmental protest by a bunch of rich hypocrites to the real and legitimate struggles involving human rights abuses against black people is nothing short of obscene.

Truncated democracy

A very truncated form of democracy, which works in practice to being an elected dictatorship. People should have a say in those things that effect them. That is democracy. Only this way can we protect ourselves against powerful minorities.

Rubbish!

Where do I engage in "archaic rhetoric" Eliot. The only one engaging in that was x4estworker, with his propaganda that was hoary with age when Karl Marx was a young man. And why do you always reduce things to left vs right? And why do you always reduce left to NDP? How many times I have written here in the last 3 years that many issues, like the environment, as but one example, transcend the left-right dichotomy? How many times I have written that, other than certain individuals, I have little use for the NDP, and if I were to vote at all would go Green? Why can you not discuss things rationally?

'A very truncated form of

'A very truncated form of democracy, which works in practice to being an elected dictatorship. People should have a say in those things that effect them. That is democracy. Only this way can we protect ourselves against powerful minorities.' after espousing such childish blather you ask me if we can discuss things rationally? give me a break man!

Showing Your ignorance!

Such comments only show your ignorance. If you knew any history at all, you would realize that what I am talking about is called Direct Democracy and is practiced in Switzerland and has been a part of populist movements in Europe, N. and South America for the last 130 years. The Reform Party even talked this way, but how sincere they were is a moot point. There is also no excuse for your ignorance. Pre-Internet, it would be hard to be informed about this matter, but today, 30 seconds and there is more info than you can deal with. This does not mean you have to agree with Direct Democracy and its critique of Representative Democracy, but it does mean that you cannot be so dismissive. To start off see,

http://www.npsnet.com/cdd/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

Contempt

The courts are being misused to persecute individuals who object to commercial exploitation and the destruction of environment - a clear misuse of the machinery of justice.

Betty Krawczyk has done nothing that could even remotely be considered 'criminal'. Without more heroes like her there will soon be nothing left of the 'commons'. It will all have been replaced with some bought and paid-for politician's version of 'personal property'. Without the sacrifices of the Caramanah protesters - who were also turned into criminals by a misused justice system surrendered to commercial interests the current stock of parklands in this province would never have been realized.

There was nothing just about this and certainly nothing to be proud of.

And nothing democratic. I think some people would have be right at home in the 1930s...
perhaps a little lesson in history is in order - maybe do a search for the story of the bonus marchers elliot.

She deserved her day in court before a jury of her peers. No one deserves less as a free man or woman.

Confused

G. West, a spirited defense of Betty, although based on complete fiction.

What is it about:

that you either don't understand or choose to ignore. (Frankly, the judge showed great restraint.)

Or is this a case of "Don't confuse a good rant with the facts."

Baloney

Corporate interests get injunctions to move people from protest areas so they can continue their work; the logging of disputed territories; traditional first nations lands & etc. When an injunction is ignored in order to advance such a dispute, the corporate entity involved goes back to the court for enforcement - and thus arises the criminal contempt charge when a supreme court order is violated. I don't care how many times it happens, it is equally repellant every single time.

This is simply a matter of corporate interests hijacking the justice system to enforce their particular point of view. As many others and I have said these protesters are not in any way showing contempt for the system of justice but for those who violate its fundamental principles by misusing it.

At the very least, someone charged with criminal contempt in such cases ought to have recourse to a jury to make their case before the real judges of the fact: The people. Judged by a jury of her peers I suspect Betty Krawczyk would have no problem with that. I certainly wouldn't. In an open court, before the people, who are the ultimate power in any democratic society, I think she'd make her point very persuasively. In my opinion, we demean ourselves by pretending that this bureaucratic exercise is anything but a capitulation before the concept of equity and fair treatment before the law. The fallacious argument that Betty Krawczyk is in any way threatening the rule of law is turning both logic and fair play on its head.

I'm sure the judge in this case was very embarrassed at having to work within such a hopelessly compromised system. The pusillanimous failure of those who defend this sick system by recourse to the most facile logic is what is truly criminal.

Time to wake up and realize who really pulls the strings in this culture. It is not the people. In Harriet Nahanee's case she was only found guilty of civil contempt - the fact that she too ended up in gaol as well is even more of a disconnect given what kinds of activities receive absolute discharges and conditional releases in court rooms every day. As a First Nations citizen our treatment of her is even more despicable, in my opinion.

These women teach us respect for principle and for the environment – this aberration of the ‘law’ teaches only about the power of the corporate organization that is fast destroying both principle and the environment – especially in this province where criminal contempt in these kinds of circumstances has become a kind of fatal illness in the body politic. But don’t let anything get in the way of progress, eh?

Happy International Women's Day!

"I submit that an individual who breaks the law that conscience tells him is unjust and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

New OLYmpic FLAG OWNERS

On the news this morning. The new owners of the big Olympic flag. Forgone stated that he wasn’t to concerned about the new flag owners. You could sense fear in his voice. I say good for you guys Let this just be the first step in shutting down this colossal waste of resources and money .This is who Vanoc and the Olympics fear the greatest ,The Natives.
We must defend the honor of these ladies Harriet Nahanee and Betty Krawczyk additionally The death of 71 year old Harriet Nahanee cannot go by without retribution and that price should be the shutting down of the 2010 Olympics.
Following is part of Betty Krawczyk letter to the court stating her concerns for Harriet Nahanee . To read the rest of her letter I have posted her site address below

http://bettysearlyedition.blogspot.com/2007/02/below-is-letter-i-wrote-to-madam.html

Thanks for that Woody

really

G West

So just what do you propose as a replacement method of resolving these disputes?

Also just how quiet would you be if a jury trial were to go against Betty Krawczyk?

You are making an assumption that protesters are, by there very nature, always in the right.

If you don't like the rules change 'em. If your cause is as just as you figure it is you should have very little trouble.

well done woody! you get

well done woody! you get blather of the month for that one. quite an honour to be the beacon of light in this lefty haven. think i'll go throw up now.

No I'm not

What I am saying is that the 'justice' system is being misused in this context.

What we have here is commercial interests using their disproportionate and ultimately undemocratic power to subvert the very 'idea' of an impartial trial and a fair hearing before a jury of the accused’s peers.

At least, if it had been done before a jury of her peers the arguments would have had to be much more thoroughly debated in a public way. Given the monopoly of a few huge corporations and the way they manipulate the media (witness the fact not a single local paper or electronic medium - to my knowledge - has reported what went on in Madame Justice Bennett's courtroom on Wednesday). If you didn't read the Tyee or the Globe and Mail and a small sprinkling of independent papers and blogs, you’d have known nothing about what Madame Justice Bennett had to say about the "PUBLIC INTEREST".

As for changing the rules myself, that is so utterly laughable as to require no comment whatsoever.

Suffice to say, the truth and justice of one's cause is no key to the corridors of power - especially in this province.

Laugh away

You seem to feel that you have enough influence to get the ball rolling. What the heck, you only live once....or is that two or maybe three times in your case.

You appear to be discontent with the way things are so I'll ask again. How would you change things? What needs to be done so that disobedient elderly women don't get thrown into jail for continuing violations of the law?

Woody...

Thanks for printing that woody... So unjust and so sad...

woody said:"The death of 71 year old Harriet Nahanee cannot go by without retribution and that price should be the shutting down of the 2010 Olympics".

I agree...

Peace,

Bear

Never trust what Woody says

Right to Bear

He's just funnin' ya.

NEVER BEEN MORE SERIOUS

snert, I've NEVER BEEN MORE SERIOUS !!
This is not a jokeing matter.

Aw what a Yuck

woody

You couldn't be serious if you tried. But if you do try make sure to let us know when to watch the Newshour.

Now you know why

Now you know why I refer to you as snot, snert. You can't differentiate fact from fiction.

I know fiction when I see it.

You're such a joker. Must be real fun at parties. I hope G West includes you in his book too. ;>)

First things

Absolutely essential is proportional representation in Victoria and in Ottawa. If you get a minimum of 2% of votes cast you get 2% of the seats and so on. We can argue the details later - I prefer mixed member proportional.

Judges are no longer lawyers and are chosen from a professional school designed to educate them for their job - not for their political connections.

Get rid of the Senate in Ottawa. No more corporate or union donations to any political party ever - on pain of two years in jail - by indictment - to be served by the ceo.

All political costs from individual donations (adults only) limited to no more than $500/ per annum.

Election financing to be paid from the national treasury on some formula related to actual support in the last election.

That's a start. We can go on from there.

The first important reform would be a complete reworking of the tax system. See me later about that. I think I already covered the elderly women thing. Oh, and no more deductibility of executive travel costs of any kind; that’s what electronic communications and video-conferencing is for.

ok

culls only in novel

I don't attend to parties, no time or patience for drunks. Gwest isn't interested in me,he said only the culls, such as yourself are of any benefit to his novel.

What has taken place here is inhumane, cruel and unusual punish

To start with Elliot, Snert, I couldn’t give two turds coming out of a dogs ass what you two think. This not a left or right topic, its in regards to what is right and wrong. Never at any point of time any where, and I mean any where , have I stated that punishment shouldn’t have been meted out in this case. What is wrong here, and I shouldn’t have to explain to you or any body else, is that, the punishment here, does not fit the crime, the punishment is far too severe for what these two ladies , these senior citizens of upper age were locked up for. At the very least they should have received a conditional ( house arrest) sentence. Incarceration, that is mostly why Harriet Napanee is dead, and could very easily cause the demise of Betty Krawczyk . The law is not at all being equitable, in the handling of these two elderly ladies. What has taken place here is inhumane, cruel and unusual punishment . These Judges who sit and look down upon us peons, do they ever have to prove out competency or mental stability , is there any checks and balances to assure that these people who sway all this power, have all their marbles linened up in a straight row, are not alcoholics, addicted or hooked on barbiturates, or any mind altering drugs. Who are they accountable to ? Certainly not the average citizen. What has occurred here with these two Ladies, was not Justice, It was revenge, by the Judiciary.

woody

It isn't going to be a novel.

And you'll have a small part - never fear.

Just remember, when it comes out in a year or so to buy copies for all your friends.

If they shot them

that would be.

ment

Quit trying to redefine reality.

woody if you didn't give "two turds" you wouldn't have responded. When you get yourself figured out then tackle the rest of the world. Mind you that might be kind of difficult for a name calling 6 year old brat.

[www.harrietspirit.blogspot.c

[www.harrietspirit.blogspot.com

IN GOD I TRUST, BUT YOU PAY CASH

Gwest
Like, how much are you going to charge per copy?
Hay hold on here ,the name Woody, is copy write, what about my 25% residual.
And none of this Ill pay you by cheque bullsh!t either, its cash, especially when Im dealing with Confidence guy with 4-6 aliases.

First things next

G West

Well, I'll go you one further on a couple of these at least.

I'm not sure "proportional representation" would really be any better than the current system, people being people.

The first thing that came to mind about the judges was it smacked of the priesthood. I dunno?

Why not try something new with the Senate and have it elected with no declared political affiliations. (See below for financing)

Absolutely no private or corporate donations, period. Funds would be made available on a per capita basis that took into consideration riding population and size.

Skookum1

Skookum1 ,Ill repost that site for you, it did not take on your thread, ok

http://liberatedyet.blogspot.com/

hey woody; are you g's

hey woody; are you g's sixth alias?

stay tuned woody - too soon for those details.

snert
Mixed member proportional ends up with more or less the exact proportions in the house as reflected in the total votes for each party - with an upset of 2%. You achieve the right balance by combining constituency members with list members from registered parties. In addition, in my system you couldn't be on both lists. Some systems differ on this point.

I thing the Senate is a waste of space. Why do we need another deliberative body? The House of Commons is more than enough.

Judges - the fact they're all lawyers makes them a priesthood now. Splitting judges off from lawyers and educating and training them would be a big improvement - it works extremely well in many European countries and would end the entitlement of big establishment law firms with political and judicial power. There would have to be a transition period - probably 10 years.

I don't have a problem, as I said, with small individual donations. I also think voting should be compulsory - as it is in Australia. Rules for running political parties and how they get their members would also need tightening up.

In the end the tax reform is the most important feature aside from electoral change. And there should be a national and provincial vote on these things – by all electors – and not just the elected members in the legislature or Ottawa. This is way too important to be left to the politicians.

And it has to be binding – not something that’s gonna be changed in four years if the politicians decide it trims their wick too close to the flame.

harrietspirit

Skookum1, I finally have harrietspirit.blogspot proper site address

http://harrietspirit.blogspot.com/

Whatchathink...

Hey Elliot,

What do you think bud, do you think Nahanee died in vain, or is her message loud and clear? I have yet to get a clear understanding about where you stand on this thread...

Peace,

Bear

Thanks Woody...

:-)

999 year leases

G West

What are the guarantees that mixed member proportional representation is going to provide better governance than the current system. I think it's a case of the same old shit, different pile. An effective recall mechanism might work just as well.

The Senate, well +/-. In theory it could provide a forum for additional deliberation if it is populated with a different breed of politician (maybe retired judges). If elected for fixed terms (possibly longer than those of MPs) the Senate could be used to moderate any potential volatility that may occur after parliamentary elections. It could also moderate any concentration of power.

Compulsory voting serves absolutely no purpose in a democracy but to give the impression that democracy is working. I won't vote if all I have to choose from is a collection of idiots. Why should I vote for something/someone that I am ambivalent towards or do not respect? Although most people who don't vote are probably complacent they still represent a force to be reckoned with if they actually do get pissed off. I do not recall seeing anywhere that Australia is the epitome of a democratic society. Why not just get rid of elected governments period and run the country by referenda.

I don't think it matters who gets used as a judge if the choice is between using lawyers or trained judiciary. Whoever does the job can only work within the existing laws. Where the system runs into trouble is the discretionary power that the courts have in sentencing. Too much is open to interpretation.

I don't think we need tax reform as much as we need to go through the system and remove all the little bureaucratic fiefdoms that collect a myriad of fees as well as their own salaries for no other reason than they can.

Now, as far as your last comment is concerned, if you are going to live in a democracy you can't make things too binding or you wind up with a whole bunch 999 year leases.

Oh, BTW I don't see how any of this is going to keep the Harriet Nahanees of the world out of jail.

snert

I've got answers for all your objections. But this isn't the place to discuss it. I certainly don't think anything you said would make me change my mind - especially the last points. If you can't see how truly independent judges (who aren’t part of the legal fraternity) would be a more effective guard against the corporate tyranny that led to these two women going to jail then I don't think I'll spend any more time on the project with you. Have a look at the number of judges that have come from just one high rent corporate law firm on Georgia street and you’ll get a tiny picture of what I’m talking about.

BTW I said it was a waste of time in the first place.

You asked, I told you.
Period.

The Law

G West

If they uses the laws of the land to make their decisions then it just doesn't matter. You are suggesting or alluding to something completely different which would probably involve rewriting those laws to suit you're particular version of reality.

Or firing a bunch of judges for being unfair and impartial which can't be done just because you don't like their decisions.

Impartial should read

partial.

Not true

Judges have a great deal of independence in this country. They not only interpret the law, they often write it.

It's not as bad as it is in the United States - which is not a real democracy at all - it's a republic and the judiciary IS a branch of government.

That's why splitting the judges away from the legal fraternity would be an excellent idea.

I don't think I ever suggested 'firing' anyone. You need to go back and read what I wrote.

As for that last remark, YOU'RE the one who asked for this little tete a tete, remember?

I think perhaps you should change your name to snark. In any case, you don't have a point and this conversation is over.

My point

G West

Is that if the system is working properly it doesn't need to be changed. Just make sure it works the way it is supposed to.

Obviously you feel that in order to better make decisions that are compatible with your beliefs the system needs to be changed. Why else would you want it changed?

I'm still scratching my head as to how "tax reform is the most important feature aside from electoral change" relates to keeping chronic law breaking elderly women out of jail.

That was the context in which my original questions were asked.

Dear Mr. West,

I am not condemning your little experiment at all, I think you are a very good and as honest as possible man. I alone gathered and posted on Internet more than enough munitions to fire quite a few judges incl. the last Head of PCBC, beside a few policemen and politicians. The problem is that nobody wants to redress catastrophic incompetence, corruption and malice at all. Can you please spare 10-15 minutes and make one comment to that? Just Google F-case: Betrayed by all. It is not completely true, our Family Doctor and Teachers of our children did not betray us at all, on the contrary. Thank you, and if you do not have that time, I wish you the best anyway! Going to visit my child to VGH now…

This is what you said

I gave you the whole tour - not just the part about old ladies being sent to jail.

Same price too. I'd have thought you'd be pleased.

POC04746160

I picked up your message and I'll get back to you - it won't be today, but I will do what I can to look at it.

Peace.
And thanks.

Mr. West

Thank you very much, you gave me so much already by not ignoring me, THANK YOU.
Josef Fisher

i wonder if poco is another

i wonder if poco is another gwest alias?

Elliot

No. POC = Prisoner Of Conscience. 04746160 is the No. Police state gave to me. And
Mr. West's little experiment was totally harmless, contrary to your all snotty and useless comments.
Josef Fisher

if you think there was an

if you think there was an experiment then you either haven't been around here long or you're naive. gwest was caught doing something despicable. the honourable thing to do would be to leave, but he has become obsessed with this little site so he made up a feeble story about doing an experiment for the sake of writing a book. he thinks everyone around here is stupid enough to believe him.. sadly, some people do. it may be time to leave this site to the lefties so they can pat each other on the back to their heart's content, as it has lost a lot of credibility since this incident occured.

Elliot,

you just proved my point. I am honored by knowing Harriet personally. Like her murdered 14-years old friend Maisie Shaw and countless other owners of this stolen cursed land, my hero Harriet must die prematurely for being what she was and for doing what she must. She must die because of people like you without achieving anything at least remotely resembling JUSTICE.

Peace...

I don't need to hear from you Elliot, I think POC04746160 said it all for me...

My heart is will all those who know Truth and fight for Justice. Where Justice is, Peace resides...

Peace,

Bear

how to break the law

As opposed to the right, who simply buy the needed changes with lap-dog politicos and bought and paid for lobbyists. Hey, it costs more, but you know they're worth it.

El

Is this goodbye, Elliot?

I've been searching my files for some evidence of the role you played in lending credibility to the Tyee.
No luck so far.

Bye.

josef

Josef,

I'm looking at your stuff and I'll post a comment there.

Thanks again.

Godd article

Counterpunch has a good article omn Betty K. See
http://www.counterpunch.org/lee03122007.html

The hanging Judge

agoanarcho that's a good story, I particularly enjoyed the part where Ingmar Lee refers to what I call the hanging judge. Glad to see someone has the gusto to report the news in a truthful, meaningful and sincere fashion. Good for you Ingmar Lee.

Dear Mr. West,

I am immensely grateful for any word. It will be a second comment since I put our horror story and cca millionth Request for Help on the internet, almost exactly two years ago. The first comment was a reccomendation that I return to school and study English, what I certainly should do. THANK YOU.
J. Fisher

yes g, this might be

yes g, this might be goodbye. i'm not sure yet. this site is getting very tiresome and boring, and allowing you to hang around after your despicable scam has caused me to lose a lot of respect for the editor and the posters who have supported you. if you lefties discovered that a politician had done such a thing you'd tear him to shreds.(unless he were a lefty too) double standards and hypocrisy aren't my style. if i decide to leave i'm sure it will make your day, as there will be one less poster to point out the idiocy of most of your posts and to expose your scummy stunt.

The Quebec Connection

GWest+Village= Garf

Oh I don't know

I think I've got a fair amount of stuff on file to prove that whoever has been posting as Elliot for the last year has been into exactly what you've just described above.

To a T.

Stay or go, it is of no concern to me. I already know what you think of your fellow men and women. As to hypocrisy - I'd say that's another of your strong suits too.

The only time you ever engaged with me in the last year as though I was a decent sort with as much right to breathe air and walk on the same street with you was when we were talking sports. I've never called you an name or hung a label on you El. For you to suggest anything different is just sad.

And kind of funny. Because you end up being condemned by your own words.
Bye El

any respect i had for you

any respect i had for you ended when you began cutting and pasting practically every post i made in an attempt to mock me. at that point i realized that you had nothing to say so i began to ignore you at an intellectual level. since then you have given me no reason to change my opinion. as for this claim of writing a book, that's simply a way of trying to cover your scam. anyone who believes otherwise is either delusional or another one of your aliases. i wish you luck. i sincerely hope you realize how ridiculous you sound, and i hope you get a life.

Mock you el?

How could that possibly mock you? I just reposted your own narrow-minded ad hominem words?

They were your own words. No one ever forced you to behave like a 12 year old. You did it entirely on your own.

In addition, you know something else? If and when I get this little book published and distributed I have a feeling you won't be able to resist buying a copy.

I haven't decided on the title yet, but it'll be something you won't be able to miss.

I haven't broken a single rule and I'm proud of making everybody here aware of just how pathetic and shallow you are. Haven't called anyone names or mocked people for where they live or how they make a living - let alone how they vote.

Those are all your moves and in the end, they are ineffective, aren't they?

Thanks for the good wishes. I always appreciate a fan.

That's why I play the greatest game in the world like a real Canadian. I keep my stick on the ice and my eyes on the goal.

I have a life.

A very nice one. I just wish some of the poor and the handicapped and the disadvantaged and the young and the homeless in this society had a better one and I'm doing everything I can to see they get it. Working fairly and above board and without calling anyone names. I gave you chance after chance to change your style of play and not once did you take up the challenge and behave like an adult.

'I haven't broken a single

'I haven't broken a single rule'. is the emperor wearing clothes gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??

Yep, nice clothes, very comfortable.

Perhaps you should check the rules El.

I'm not the one who's broken any of them.

Every label has to have a real and unique email address. Both of my two labels have.

The registration confirming message from Tyee to each address has to be responded to in order to activate a membership. Once you've done that each 'label' is forever associated with that email address.

I have two: One for GWest. One for Alcibiades.

I registerd the Alcibiades one on March 3 2006. I last posted with that label one year later. Exactly what I said I did - for reasons you alredy know and I'm not going to repeat again because everyone else knows too. This has all been spelled out very clearly several times. What is it about these relatively simple, but admittedly somewhat abstract concepts that you can't understand?

I like my clothes just fine. And, as I've told you, I'm proud of posting exactly the same ideas and philosophy under each of those labels for a whole year.

Without once resorting to what was obviously your stock in trade from the first post of yours I read. What is it about that very simple proposition that you can't seem to get your head around. I told you very early on I had an aversion to bullies.

No one forced you to post things that, in retrospect make you look like a mean-spirited crank. You did it to yourself - every single bit of it.

My clothes are just fine. The fit is excellent.

Maybe it's time for you to grow up.
I know it's time for me to ignore you because you still don't have anything to say....

'Every label has to have a

'Every label has to have a real and unique email address. Both of my two labels have.' sounds like you should go to work as a spin doctor for the federal liberals. you're a liar g. period. i'm going to make sure new posters (if there ever are any) realize what you've done so they understand this site is a joke for allowing this sort of thing to happen. but of course your book will explain all that, right g?

Elliot, I am not a liar

And you'll be happy to know I'm not going to report this to the editors.

It's the second time you've said it on these pages, I also know that David Beers knows about the first time because I brought it to his attention and asked him not to caution you for violating his rules.

The more often you post such nonsense the more foolish you look, sadly.

So keep it up. The last thing I want is for you to be banned.

I want you to grow up!

The only joke is you.

As for the book, I was kind of thinking a release date of, say, January 2009 would be about right. By then I'll have a couple of other things to say about the way media "works" in this province.

I think it might actually have quite an impact.

If you're still around, I may pay you a commission for the publicity. The Elliot file is growing apace.

if that's a threat it's

if that's a threat it's meaningless g. you are a liar.

It's not a threat

I have never lied on these threads, not a single time. You and everyone else here have been told the whole story.
I would never threaten anyone. That, my friend is your style, not mine.

Keep spitting. I need the material.

you lied by stating that

you lied by stating that your deceitful little practice of using multiple aliases to defend your positions was done as an experiment for research on a book. what a bunch of garbage! i'll say it again g.
YOU ARE A LIAR!. you should have admitted you were wrong and disappeared. now you have spun a web of lies and you can't turn back. you disgust me.

Not at all

I was very clear about the fact that the idea about the book came later. Which it did. The idea of posting under two names – and pushing fairness, attacking bully tactics and avoiding ad hominem comments about others was my initial motivation. Since March 3 I’ve decided, as I said, that another use could be made of my little experiment.

I'm so surprised you're not inspired by my entrepreneurial spirit.

Pardon me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that you involved yourself entirely of your own accord and volition. If someone else is forcing you to make written entries here that point out your own character then I think maybe you’re the one who needs help.

When I realized the amount of material I had collected (all my own - why would I save yours, it's in the archives if I need to consult it) and what an interesting slice of human nature it revealed I recognized that it might make an interesting project as a book.

Not a single lie Elliot; in addition, you can check the record to confirm it if you like.

I'd just as soon you keep up the diatribe. Now that I HAVE decided definitely to do the book, every little bit helps. I'll definitely let you know when it goes on sale. I'd even be happy to autograph a copy for you: No extra charge.

SO keep it up dude. Your goal has been empty since the end of the first period.

I must admit though it's starting to fill up with pucks.

when my kids were teenagers

when my kids were teenagers they always had to have the last word g. since you insist i'll let you have it. unfortunately i have lost all respect for you so it doesn't really matter to me what you do anyway.

Do you think that I care for your respect?

Elliot:
I gave you literally dozens of chances to play fair.

You need to start showing some respect for yourself.

If your kids ever find out who 'Elliot' is I'd be interested to hear their reaction if they also got a chance to read what you think of anyone who disagrees with your take on life though.

If you'd cared at all about what I think and cared a fig for what I believe constitutes a civil discussion or debate you'd have shown it months ago. You didn't. There is, on the evidence, only one possible conclusion.

Moreover, you're still doing it, this time to all school janitors and CUPE members on a thread just up top of the website.

I'm not the one who's behaved like a 12-year-old bully in the school yard.

Carry on El. I'm not the one who ought to feel guilty.

Definitely a record to be proud of.

An on-topic article.

An on-topic article.

thanks for the link to that

thanks for the link to that article snert. great stuff. as m;uch as i expected. she's a miserable blowhard with nothing to say, but we're supposed to feel sympathy for her b/c she's a 78 year-old 'grandmother'. big deal. wrong is wrong.

cold...

:- |

bear

Some article snert

Nothing but ad hominem nonsense and cheap snide opinion. You'd think he could have mustered a few quotations to prove his point wouldn't you? Instead just cheap slime and innuendo. I'm not surprised you approve Elliot.

And this:

DO you suppose Mr. Fletcher writes Bill Bennett's stuff too?

did you say something g?

did you say something g?

Snert's little article.

The creature who wrote the article Snert linked also seems to hates Suzuki and Gore as well.Once again hate propaganda is substituted for analysis. In other words a typical neocon Reich-wing moonbat, too stupid to realize that few things could be more genuinely "conservative" than defending the environment.

roads to development or developments guide roads?

I'm interested by the new Translink mandate - that land development be part of the consideration in Translink's planning for new transit and roads. Will the new reality be that the road gets built where Kevin's friends own property, instead of transit being planned to serve the existing population centres? In the South Fraser, we are very concerned about the South Fraser Perimeter Road, part of Gateway's grand plan. The road will bulldoze existing residential neighbourhoods, pave over the best farmland in BC, and dam the Burns Bog without any knowledge of the impacts of this action.
For more information, see our websites at:
www.SaveDelta.ca or
www.SunburyNeighbourhood.ca or
www.StopGateway.ca or
www.GatewaySucks.org

Dear Mr. West,

THANK YOU! Thank you for your kind comment to my 3359 days long quest for Justice, for listening that 2nd VPD interrogation with resulting declaration that I am not only a criminal, but mentally ill criminal, for listening to their repeated Vows: ”These crimes are not going to be investigated!” It is so frustrating when people do not understand at all my so terribly corrupt English. Though my hero Harriet and I understood each other perfectly. I will never forget her so adamant confidence that a big and entirely positive change for owners of this stolen cursed land is coming, that in the year 2008 we will hear a honest apology and that she will be able to forgive. As Kevin Annett said for her memory: “They haven't killed Harriett Nahanee at all. Don't believe that judicial murder, or pneumonia, or a cross, ever silences the just souls among us. May they, and may Harriett, continue to make us restless, and move us to act”.

Promoting Hate Literature...shame,shame...

G West said of snerts article:

Said well anarcho:

These articles, as with the people promoting them, are empty of anything accept strangely cold, hateful, and cruel attitudes towards these two elderly women who spoke up for earth justice... Clearly most people believe that the injustices put upon these two women right here in our country were inconceivable and wrong...

The judge should be charged with the death of Nahanee, and set Betty free... I have never witness anything more cruel and vile towards the elderly, towards women, and towards our personal freedoms right here in our country...

People should NEVER forget this action promoted by our legal system against the Voice of the People...... Indeed I won't.

Democratic?? Not even maybe.....

Pathetic......

More Peace,

Bear

Redefining democracy

Bear

At the time of the latest census there were 4,113,487 people in the province and how many protesters were there all together, 100 - 200? Kinda like a lower than average voter turn out, wouldn't you say? What a distorted view of democracy in action. Geez, if your glasses looked any more like coke bottle bottoms we'd have to call you Bubbles.

Whose glasses are like Coke bottle bottoms?

That overlooks the fact that the protestors are the unofficial (please note that last word) representatives of a lot of people. I wasn't there nor either were any of my friends yet my friends and I supported their actions. This situation is repeated over and over again and seeing maybe two-thirds of the population are concerned about the environment... Anyway since no poll seems available, it is a moot point, but I can say for sure that Harriet and Betty represent a lot of people. You right-whiner moonbats may control the govt. but you don't control all the people.

anarcho and right to bear;

anarcho and right to bear; you forgot to mention that you disagree with him.

Right from Left

anarcho

You don't know your right from your left anyhow so what are you on about. Nothing like an Anarchistic whine to set the teeth gritting.

snert, and elliot... yesh :-\

Elliot said:

Fair enough dude. If you would like, I will remind myself to bridge the gap between "you" and "the obvious" in the future...

In response to snerts snarkiness when he said to Bear :

anarcho replied and said it all :-):

Peace,

Bear

Since when

Bear

is democracy a minority rule form of government? You use the word to try and provide some legitimacy to your cause. Smoke and mirrors.

...wisdom of the aged.

I said:

Active word: MOST, meaning majority snert.

anarcho's post:

No one snert, except for perhaps corrupt corporate supporters, and government sell-outs to the people, believe this cruel action towards these elderly women was appropriate, justified, humane, fair, or of sound judgment of which we would all want our democratic, just, and civilized society to be based on...

What about your grandmother snert, what if she stood up for something she believes strongly in, should she go to jail if she speaks up?? What about the fundemental and basic respect we are to have for the aged and the wisdom of the aged?? You know, our Elders??

What will happen if we put the peaceful "voices" in jail? Would people then elevate to the next level to promote fairness and truth? I wonder if history shows that people will find a way to be heard? What do you think??

Peace,

Bear

snert

In this country democracy is A MINORITY form of government. That's a big part of the reason why the MAJORITY of sensible people are so angry and frustrated much of the time and why, more than anything else we need real fundamental electoral reform to bring 'real' democracy to ALL the people. Why should it only happen in countries on the other side of the Atlantic? Aren't we good enough to handle the responsibility here in North America?

Gordon Campbell certainly hasn't proved himself up to the democratic challenge. When the questioning in Victoria gets intense, he goes to visit Arnie.

Now, did you have a point? Or are you just looking for air time?

Thank you for bringing it up again.