Circumcision all bad?

There is mounting evidence circumcision protects against HIV infection.... of course I'm sure there are conspiracy theorists out there who can throw some doubt on this.
http://tinyurl.com/ywymss

Using human body parts is not a black and white ethical issue. The biggest concern should have to do with where the parts come from. Consenting adults that donate their bodies or parts are making a choice they should be allowed to make. But once money enters the equation, economic need and exploitation enter the picture. In addition, using newborn or fetal tissue is an extremely tricky and potentially dangerous ethical situation.

Fetuses for cosmetics

This ghoulishness of this practice is beyond comprehension. There is talk of women in eastern europe being paid to carry their babies to a specific term so there are more saleable parts to harvest for the cosmetics and organ industries.
Killing the unborn so one can have a nice complexion amply illustrates the appalling degradation our society has sunk to.

As long as people

As long as people desperately stare at themselves in a mirror, hoping that "improvements" will make them more liked, is how long all that cosmetic junk will be marketable.
Now, if a piece of foreskin can generate so much cash, imagine how much the ample bellies around North America represents, should that skin be harvested?
Maybe this is the next "get-rich-quick" scheme: Have a tummy-tuck and sell the excess skin?

Everything is for sale

People are just another commodity to be used by big business and the gov't. After all, corporations and gov't are merely quid-pro-quo whorehouses sold to the highest bidder. When the gov't needs illegal wire-taps, Verizon and Sprint allow them secret rooms to listen in on calls. When Haliburton (and KBR) need more revenue, the gov't hands out no-bid contracts. When the gov't dislikes literature, Amazon and Wikipedia ban the book "America Deceived". We The People had our gov't (and foreskin) sold out from beneath us.
Final link (before Google Books caves to pressure and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

Good comments JB and Dolphin...

Some very thoughtful comments...

I agree James, where the parts come from is key in the issue of "ethical usage" of body parts. The issue of ethical use and unethical use of organs, can be considered precarious to define and potentially a very slipery slope. If my son needed a kidney, I would give him one of mine...fair enough. But is a poor family from Mexico needs money, and choose to sell theirs or one of their children’s kidneys, is this acceptable?? As you indicated through your comments James, once money enters into the picture of organ usage, the ethical line is easily crossed. This issue also clearly defines "haves" from the "have not’s" in our world. Instead of helping people or animals, we cross the line and use the underprivileged or the voiceless. Imo, this creates and has created, a pathtic state of morality in humanity within our global communtiy...

So what about money made on the blood of aborted fetuses...?? Because there is now a market, demand\supply will dictate the number of children who die or are killed in the womb imo... It has been this way in other markets, why not this one??

What about the animals who have suffered and died to develop these organ transplant or organ usage procedures? Is this acceptable? How has this affected our morality I wonder?

Dolphin said:

Now where do we draw the line, or do we draw a line at all…???

Bear

Yes, James Burns it's all bad

http://barnesworld.blogs.com/barnes_world/2006/12/aids_circumscis.html

Let's get the HIV nonsense out of the way.
Read the above and explore the site. The Editor is Harvey Bialy PhD in microbiology so don't allow yourself to dismiss the site as crankery.

Then check out the postings of James3D on the "Is Circumcision Child Abuse" thread. It is. It is genital mutilation and there are no excuses for it unless the forskin has become a real problem. Un-c'd boys of around 2-3 may develop a smegma build up that is easily dealt with by home procedures allowing gradual retraction and cleaning. Doctors who don't know better chop it off unnecessarily.

It would seem to me that solving the tissue culture problems so new tissue is no longer needed might be a better way to go. I'm very antsy about harvesting human parts from live people.

the unkindest cut?

Meh, I don't miss my foreskin.

Frankly, we could all benefit from thinking about cocks less.

Perhaps parents SHOULDN'T snip their boys, but from my perspective, I'm glad it was done so long ago that I have zero memory of the incident. I've seen plenty of penises (penii?) and I prefer the appearance of a circumsized one, so I fail to appreciate the big fuss.

I think male circumcision is a far different thing from clitoral circumcision and should be left to the discretion of the parents, i.e. don't tell me what to do with my kid and I won't tell you how your parenting skills suck either.

Right Stump! You own your

Right Stump!
You own your kid and can do with it as you please!
How about letting kids decide for themselves how they want to live, once they are grown up?
In other words why make it hard or impossible for them later on in life?
So many parents enroll their offsprings into sundayschools so they can be brainwashed into one particualr religion for instance; is that fair?
I am happy that you do not miss your foreskin, but then again you have no idea what you are missing, do You?
My point is that you are the guardian of that child, You are supposed to look out for its interests instead of your own ideologies (which appears to be somwhat warped)

Amen

If God felt that foreskin was bad, SHE would not have made it part of man!

ideology?

I don't think I have an ideology surrounding my foreskin.

I'm certainly not suggesting I own my child.

I just don't understand the big flap over a little flap.

Do explain how a foreskin or lack thereof will affect how one wants to live later on in life?

Near as I can tell, about the only thing I'm missing is the likelihood of more smegma and cock-stink after a few days camping w/out shower facilities.

If you don't want to snip your kid that's cool by me.

Prove to me that circumcision is a bad idea. Otherwise, I fail to understand why your opinion should compel other parents to do your bidding w/r/t to their children.

Not for the faint of heart

Tell me it doesn't hurt and that it is not the most traumatic thing one could do to an infant after watching this. I couldn't watch, just listening to the baby was enough to convince me that there is no excuse for infant circumcision.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6584757516627632617

Although there is no concious memory of the trauma, it is there, imprinted in the nervous system forever.

Watching a video of a routine circ is part of many prenatal classes now and seems to be leading to a drop in the number of babies subjected to this atrocity.

It makes as much sense to cut off a nose so it doesn't have to be blown as to cut off a forskin so one can go camping without having to worry about personal hygiene.

Of course it hurts

One is getting a piece of pecker snipped off!

Prove to me its imprinted on my nervous system 'forever'.

My baby cried just as hard a zillion times when she was an infant and it was never because she was in severe pain, or poorly parented or anything. Babies cry... hard... and it pains a parent to hear it, but it's IMO it's not the big deal you would have us believe it to be.

The camping comment was not really meant to be an example. Don't get sidetracked by it. I was asking for an explanation of the benefits of being uncut... and I've yet to hear one that stands up to scrutiny. If I'm underinformed then show me.

Like I say, if you don't want your kid circumsized that's fine by me. If you think your beliefs should trump my beliefs I guess that's your business too. But, are you prepared to let me tell you how to raise YOUR kid?

placenta

Did I mention that I worked for two years in an Hospital in RSA?

Isn't that tissue "thrown away" as well?
Once the Maternity nurses started to trust that I was not your standard "afrikanner" maintenance engineer they asked me to provide locked storage for the placenta from the frequent births there. According to them the "witch Doctors" (local and otherwise) prized this material to produce "Muti" and were stealing it regularly. From what I know of nurses and hospitals they would rather sell the placenta than have it stolen. So for that reason (and the fact that I had no budget for maintenance tools let alone locks for placenta cupboards, nor for the cupboards themselves) it never happened.

Ammanda:
Yours is the first negative reaction I have heard to this display. My mother and my grand daughter thought it was spectacular. I have only seen the brochure and avoided biology throughout high school since the "squishy" bits put me off.
That's why some of us "tune in" to thetyee:
alternate perspective.

Overstating the case

I find it hard to believe I suffered an atrocity as an infant, esp. compared to some of the things others have endured in places like Rwanda and Cambodia.

It's so disgusting I feel ill

It's sickening to think that even in a "perfect" circumcision a man loses about 15 square inches of wonderful sensual tissue and over half his sexual nerve endings. The exquisite frictionless rolling/gliding mode of stimulation is gone for him and any partner he will ever have. Not to mention the large share of circs that have unintended consequences (how could a baby butcher have any clue how much skin to remove when he has no idea how the anatomy will grow at puberty?).

It's depressing that any human could stand idly by and say "I don't think I'm missing anything" and so allow infant mutilation to continue. Come on, it doesn't make you less of a man to acknowledge that you were victimized as a helpless child. A MAN is someone who looks out for the next generation.

HIS body HIS decision.

Believe it!

http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm
BEHAVIORAL RESPONSE FOLLOWING CIRCUMCISION

Beginning in the 1970s, a few studies investigated the effect of circumcision on infant behavior. Some studies found differences in sleep patterns and more irritability among circumcised infants.( 17) In addition, changes in infant-maternal interaction were observed during the first twenty-four hours after circumcision.( 18) For example, breast- and bottle-fed infants’ feeding behavior has been shown to deteriorate after circumcision.( 19) Other behavior differences have been noted on the day following the procedure.( 20) The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) Task Force on Circumcision noted these various behavioral changes resulting from circumcision in their report.( 21)

Researchers found that European reports of newborn infant responses to hearing and taste stimulation showed little difference in responses between males and females, while related tests on American infants showed significant gender differences.( 22) Investigators suggested that these differences could be the result of circumcision and not gender.

In one of the most important studies, the behavior of nearly 90 percent of circumcised infants significantly changed after the circumcision.( 23) Some became more active, and some became less active. The quality of the change generally was associated with whether they were crying or quiet respectively at the start of the circumcision. This suggests the use of different coping styles by infants when they are subjected to extreme pain. In addition, the researchers observed that circumcised infants had lessened ability to comfort themselves or to be comforted by others.

Some mothers and nurses who contacted the Circumcision Resource Center also noted behavior changes. Sally Hughes, an obstetrical nurse who has seen many circumcised infants before they go home, reported,

When you lay them on their stomachs they scream. When their diaper is wet they scream. Normally, they don’t scream if their diaper is wet. Baby boys who are not circumcised do not scream like that. The circumcised babies are more irritable, and they nurse poorly.( 24)

There's more..denial doen't help

Mothers reported that their infants changed temperament after the circumcision, cried for extended periods at home, and seemed inconsolable.

Researchers at Children’s Hospital in Boston noted changes in sleep patterns, activity level, irritability, and mother-infant interaction. They concluded,

The persistence of specific behavioral changes after circumcision in neonates implies the presence of memory. In the short term, these behavioral changes may disrupt the adaptation of newborn infants to their postnatal environment, the development of parent-infant bonding, and feeding schedules.( 25)

There is one study of the impact of circumcision several months after the event. A group of investigators at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto reported that male infants aged four to six months had a stronger response than females to pain during vaccinations. They wondered whether circumcision was a factor and reviewed the data to test that hypothesis. Researchers found that the circumcised boys had increased behavioral pain response and cried for significantly longer periods than the uncircumcised boys.( 26)

victim?

Well, you know us victims of atrocities, we have trouble discussing it.

advocacy website

Mopled:

Do you have any data from an unbiased source?

Are you ready to accept my advice on child-rearing, if I assure you that I know what's best for your kid?

Leave the decision to parents and their doctors and let's debate some other aspect of the trade in body parts where there actually ARE some serious issues and consequences.

What's biased?

The published studies comparing cut and uncut babies? What you can't face is biased?

There is no valid reason to circumcise an infant! Check out what medical societies have to say, like
2002 Royal Australasian College of Physicians
“After extensive review of the literature the RACP reaffirms that there is no medical indication for routine male circumcision. The possibility that routine circumcision may contravene human rights has been raised because circumcision is performed on a minor and is without proven medical benefit. . . . Review of the literature in relation to risks and benefits shows there is no evidence of benefit outweighing harm for circumcision as a routine procedure.”

2002 Canadian Paediatric Society (reaffirmed 1996 position)

“Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed.”

see the rest at
http://www.circumcision.org/position.htm

Spanking is no longer acceptable, why should genital mutilation get a pass?

benefit and harm

Nor is there any evidence that the harm outweighs the benefits right?

It's an emotional issue. You should do what you feel is right for your family.

It's not abuse, it has about as much effect on a baby as getting their ears pierced which is not uncommon either.

Point out to me where a doctors' association expressly says it's harmful please and I'll reconsider.

How would you interpret these?

1996 Australian College of Paediatrics

“The Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons has informed the College that ‘neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without anaesthesia to remove a normal functional and protective prepuce [foreskin].’ ”

1996 Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons

“We do not support the removal of a normal part of the body, unless there are definite indications to justify the complications and risks which may arise. In particular, we are opposed to male children being subjected to a procedure, which had they been old enough to consider the advantages and disadvantages, may well have opted to reject the operation and retain their prepuce [foreskin]....The 1989 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child states that ‘State parties should take all effective and appropriate measures with a view to abolishing traditional practices prejudicial to the health of children.’ ”

No national medical organization in the world recommends
routine circumcision of male infants.

What is the point of taking a chance when the odds are 1 in 500 of there being serious complications and there are no benefits?

Do a little reading on the effects of trauma on the nervous system. Believing that no permanent harm is done, is on the same line as MDs of just a few years back being taught that newborns don't even feel pain. They then operated with an attitude of "I wasn't taught that therefore it isn't true." denying their own perceptions and never asking themselves why the babies were screaming rather than sleeping.

I'm "covered"

T'anks God.
Would I be even more of a jerk if I had been circumcised? I hope not but:
Reading Koestler's "Janus" I am wondering just how to explain the self destructive behaviour of the Male dominated (and commonly circumcised ) modern world.

Lets have "show and tell" along with the "State of the Union" or Harper's pallid proxy.
How many of these psychopaths that currently make decisions affecting us all are circumcised?

one last kick at the cut

Mopled:

I wouldn't suggest it need be routine or done without anaesthetic, but it should be up to the families involved without the scare-mongering ("atrocities" and other hyperbole) involved.

Going on about trauma and permanent damage when it's pretty obvious that plenty of us are plenty capable of being compassionate and caring individuals despite being circumsized isn't very compelling evidence IMO.

Doggone:

Yeah, the world's a shithole because of circumcision. Puh-leeze.

"no benefits" to circumcision

That's not exactly accurate is it?

By HELEN BRANSWELL -- Canadian Press

TORONTO (CP) -- New research may kick-start the debate over male circumcision.

Women whose sex partners are circumcised appear to be less likely to develop cervical cancer, according to a large international study. The reason is that circumcised men are less likely to become infected with and pass on to their partners the human papillomavirus.

Human papillomavirus, known as HPV, is a common sexually transmitted disease. It causes genital warts in men and women and has been linked to cervical cancer as well as cancer of the vulva, vagina, anus and penis.

The protective effect of circumcision is greatest among women whose partners put them most at risk because of their sexual behaviour -- men who have had multiple (at least six) sexual partners, men who became sexually active at a young age and men who have sex with prostitutes.

"The most striking finding for us . . . (is) that the higher the sexual behaviour risk of the men, the higher the protection of circumcision for cervical cancer in their wives," said lead author Dr. Xavier Castellsague, of the Catalan Institute of Oncology in Barcelona, Spain.

Castellsague and his colleagues studied data from seven studies on cervical cancer in the Philippines, Spain, Columbia, Thailand and Brazil and reported their findings Thursday in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Those studies were conducted under the auspices of the International Agency for Research on Cancer.

Men who were either the stable partner or husband of women in the studies were interviewed by Castellsague and his team. They were asked about their sexual behaviour and whether they were circumcised, and were checked for HPV infection.

Uncircumcised men were three times more likely to be infected with the virus.

Among men whose sexual behaviour was considered high risk, those who were uncircumcised were five times more likely to carry the virus.

It is not entirely clear why circumcision protects men from acquiring HPV, but it is believed that the inside surface of the foreskin is not as tough as skin elsewhere on the penis and is thus more vulnerable to the virus.

It is also believed that circumcision protects men from acquiring and passing on other sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.

An editorial in the journal calls the study findings "convincing" and suggests an increase in the circumcision rate globally might have public health benefits.

But Castellsague and his colleagues were not ready to call for a widespread return to circumcision.

"This paper is just presenting the scientific data of a very large and very powerful study that circumcision is reducing HPV in the penis and also cervical cancer in the wives. But we are not making recommendations because it's very controversial," he said in an interview.

He suggested a debate on the pros and cons of circumcision should take place.

"It seems that indeed the data and the evidence are very consistent that circumcision may protect or may reduce the risk of acquiring any STDs, including HIV and HPV," he said.

"But I would move away from making recommendations. What I would say in this report is that a systematic, scientific review of the evidence is urgently needed at this point."

Once done as a matter of course in North American hospitals, circumcision has fallen from favour in the past couple of decades. Critics argue there is no good reason for snipping off an infant's foreskin. Even the Canadian Paediatric Society terms the procedure "not medically necessary," although it recognizes circumcision remains important among some cultures.

Infants

It is still morally wrong to subject an infant to torture on a "just in case" or 'It might prevent".

Cervical cancer is the most treatable and preventable of all the cancers. In fact I know of a case where the preliminary changes were reversed by mega doses of Vit C.
Since there is a link between smoking and cervical cancer, it makes more sense to discourage girls from becoming chimneys than hacking at baby boys.

If your worried about the religious requirement for infant circs, it turns out it is optional.
http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/info.htm

Some Humour

A priest, a pastor and rabbi who regularly met for coffee, were extolling their prowess at converting souls to their brand of religion. A nearby customer overheard their talk and said, "Look, it's easy to persuade people. Now what would be really impressive was if you could convert a bear." So the three decided to take up the challenge and meet back in a week to compare stories.
They did meet in a week--in the same hospital room.
The priest had a bandaged head and a broken arm. "Now that bear did not take kindly to my homily or lessons from the catechism, and he slapped me around something fierce. But thanks to the protection of the Blessed Virgin, I was able to sprinkle him with Holy water and he became as gentle as a lamb. I was able to teach him to do the sign of the cross and the first three beads of the Rosary, and the Bishop is coming out next week to give him his first communion!"
The pastor, of the Southern Baptist variety, boomed out his story, heavily bandaged and nursing a broken leg. "Well, I PREACHED the Word of the LORD to that monster, and he rose up in DEVILLISH wrath, and smote me mightily. But I CLAIMED the POWER of the Holy Spirit, hallelujah, and wrassled that beast up hill and down, until we finally tumbled into a creek, where I BAPTIZED his hairy soul. Lord God a'MIGHTY, he became as gentle as a lamb, and accepted JAYSUS as his personal Lord and Saviour, and we spent the rest of the day memorizing scripture verses. He's going to join the choir as a baritone, HalleLUjah."
The rabbi, completely immobilized in a body cast, was only able to wheeze out a few words in his heavy accent. "In hindsight, it was a mistake to start with circumcision."

Hyperboliffic

Mepled:

I really feel you weaken your case accusing parents of torture and atrocities. It's neither of those things. You also diminish the very real suffering of people who've had the misfortune to endure the real varieties of the above.

thanx for the debate.

Stump

LOL, the pseudonym suddenly seems quite funny. I assure you, it's all there, minus a few square inches of toque!

None are so blind

http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/women.htm
THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS
Excerpts from Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective
by Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.

“I had profound doubts about my decision [to circumcise]. But because open discussion of Brit Milah seems to be discouraged in the Jewish community, I experienced my doubts privately and without comfort. . . . Thus, a rite intended to inspire feelings of Jewish unity evoked in me a sense of loss and alienation.”

“If a woman is made to distrust her most basic instinct to protect her newborn child, what feelings can she ever trust?”

“My tiny son and I sobbed our hearts out. . . . After everything I'd worked for, carrying and nurturing Joseph in the womb, having him at home against no small odds, keeping him by my side constantly since birth, nursing him whenever he needed closeness and nourishment-the circumcision was a horrible violation of all I felt we shared. I cried for days afterward.”

“I have never heard such screams. . . . Will I ever know what scars this brings to your soul? . . . What is that new look I see in your eyes? I can see pain, a certain sadness, and a loss of trust.”

“I've never even talked about this before-I thought I was the only one who worried about it.”

“I heard him cry during the time they were circumcising him. The thing that is most disturbing to me is that I can still hear his cry. . . . It was an assault on him, and on some level it was an assault on me. . . . I will go to my grave hearing that horrible wail.”

“The screams of my baby remain embedded in my bones and haunt my mind. . . . His cry sounded like he was being butchered. I lost my milk.”

“I knew that this was a terrible mistake and that it was something that no one, especially newborn babies, should ever have to endure."

None weaken their argument so much

as those relying on anecdotes.

same page, check the footnotes

CIRCUMCISION IS A WOMEN'S ISSUE

• The maternal instincts and experiences of women uniquely qualify them for the important responsibility of caring for infants and protecting them from pain and harm.

• Research demonstrates that women are generally more sensitive than men to the needs and feelings of infants, and newborn infants recognize, prefer, and are more responsive to their mothers.1

• Generally, because they are not themselves circumcised, females are not subject to the personal psychological motivations of circumcised men to perpetuate the practice (e.g., "I want him to look like me").2

• According to a recent study, circumcision can adversely affect female sexual enjoyment.3

• Any adverse psychological consequences of circumcision on males may adversely affect male-female relationships.4

• Because of the prevalence of circumcision in the United States, some potential adverse psychological effects of circumcision on males (known/unknown) may have indirect adverse social effects on women.5

• Mothers sign the majority of hospital circumcision consent forms.6

NOTES

1. Frodi, A. & Lamb, M., “Sex Differences in Responsiveness to Infants: A Developmental Study of Psychophysical and Behavioral Responses,” Child Development 49 (1978): 1182-8; Bushnell, I., Sai, F., & Mullin, J., “Neonatal Recognition of the Mother's Face,” British Journal of Developmental Psychology 7 (1989): 3-15; DeCasper, A., & Fifer, W. “Of Human Bonding: Newborns Prefer Their Mothers' Voices,” Science 208 (1980): 1174-1176.
2. Goldman, R. Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma. Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997, 43-45.
3. O'Hara, K & O'Hara, J., “The Effect of Male Circumcision on the Sexual Enjoyment of the Female Partner,” BJU International 83 Suppl. 1 (1999): 79-84.
4. Goldman, R. Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma. Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997, 124-148.
5. Goldman, R. Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma. Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997, 151-171.
6. Bean, G. & Egelhoff, C., "Neonatal Circumcision: When is the Decision Made?" Journal of Family Practice 18 (1984): 883-887.
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
Researchers Demonstrate Traumatic Effects of Circumcision

A team of Canadian researchers produced new evidence that circumcision has long-lasting traumatic effects. An article published in the international medical journal The Lancet reported the effect of infant circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The researchers tested 87 infants at 4 months or 6 months of age. The boys who had been circumcised were more sensitive to pain than the uncircumcised boys. Differences between groups were significant regarding facial action, crying time, and assessments of pain.

The authors believe that "neonatal circumcision may induce long-lasting changes in infant pain behavior because of alterations in the infant’s central neural processing of painful stimuli." They also write that "the long-term consequences of surgery done without anaesthesia are likely to include post-traumatic stress as well as pain. It is therefore possible that the greater vaccination response in the infants circumcised without anaesthesia may represent an infant analogue of a post-traumatic stress disorder triggered by a traumatic and painful event and re-experienced under similar circumstances of pain during vaccination."

Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," The Lancet 349 (1997): 599–603.

Circumcision Study Halted Due to Trauma

Researchers found circumcision so traumatic that they ended the study early rather than subject any more infants to the operation without anesthesia. Those infants circumcised without anesthesia experienced not only severe pain, but also an increased risk of choking and difficulty breathing. The findings were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Up to 96% of infants in some areas of the United States receive no anesthesia during circumcision. No anesthetic currently in use for circumcisions is effective during the most painful parts of the procedure.

Lander, J. et al., "Comparison of Ring Block, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block, and Topical Anesthesia for Neonatal Circumcision," JAMA 278 (1997): 2157–2162.

Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys

The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during the first three years of life, according to a report in the British Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be discouraged.

Van Howe, R., "Variability in Penile Appearance and Penile Findings: A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776–782.

Poll of Circumcised Men Reveals Harm

A poll of circumcised men published in the British Journal of Urology describes adverse outcomes on men’s health and well-being. Findings showed wide-ranging physical, sexual, and psychological consequences. Some respondents reported prominent scarring and excessive skin loss. Sexual consequences included progressive loss of sensitivity and sexual dysfunction. Emotional distress followed the realization that they were missing a functioning part of their penis. Low-self esteem, resentment, avoidance of intimacy, and depression were also noted.

Hammond, T., "A Preliminary Poll of Men Circumcised in Infancy or Childhood," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1: 85–92

Psychological Effects of Circumcision Studied

An article titled "The Psychological Impact of Circumcision" reports that circumcision results in behavioral changes in infants and long-term unrecognized psychological effects on men. The piece reviews the medical literature on infants’ responses to circumcision and concludes, "there is strong evidence that circumcision is overwhelmingly painful and traumatic." The article notes that infants exhibit behavioral changes after circumcision, and some men have strong feelings of anger, shame, distrust, and grief about having been circumcised. In addition, circumcision has been shown to disrupt the mother-infant bond, and some mothers report significant distress after allowing their son to be circumcised. Psychological factors perpetuate circumcision. According to the author, "defending circumcision requires minimizing or dismissing the harm and producing overstated medical claims about protection from future harm. The ongoing denial requires the acceptance of false beliefs and misunderstanding of facts. These psychological factors affect professionals, members of religious groups, and parents involved in the practice."

Expressions from circumcised men are generally lacking because most circumcised men do not understand what circumcision is, emotional repression keeps feelings from awareness, or men may be aware of these feelings but afraid of disclosure.

Goldman, R., "The Psychological Impact of Circumcision," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1: 93–102

Serious Consequences of Circumcision Trauma in Adult Men Clinically Observed

Using four case examples that are typical among his clients, a practicing psychiatrist presents clinical findings regarding the serious and sometimes disabling long-term somatic, emotional, and psychological consequences of infant circumcision in adult men. These consequences resemble complex post-traumatic stress disorder and emerge during psychotherapy focused on the resolution of perinatal and developmental trauma. Adult symptoms associated with circumcision trauma include shyness, anger, fear, powerlessness, distrust, low self-esteem, relationship difficulties, and sexual shame. Long-term psychotherapy dealing with early trauma resolution appears to be effective in healing these consequences.

Rhinehart, J., "Neonatal Circumcision Revistited," Transactional Analysis Journal 29 (1999): 215-221

You tell me, Stump

Something is definitely wrong.
Of course it's not that all world leaders have been turned in to monsters by having their foreskins (and trust of parents) ripped off.
It goes a lot deeper than that:

Some system convinced their parents to inflict this wretched experience on them.
It has to do with "domination" and "manhood".

Most societies have "initiation Rites" and a good portion of those are fairly brutal and painful. The more sophisticated (not necessarily more modern) give the individual some time to get his/her feet on the ground.

Sensitivity to pain

is a good thing. It's a survival mechanism.

In another study

Researchers found that people who seek the aid of a psychiatrist often have issues.

Seriously, four case examples. How many circumsized men are there in the world that haven't really given it a moment's thought or concern since their high school locker room? I know at least one.

Just to reiterate

I don't think circumcision should be routine. It may not be necessary.

Calling it an atrocity and torture however is overstating it IMO. Anecdotally speaking of course.

Grateful to my folks

Im thank full and grateful to my parents for at least two things (1) they had me circumcised shortly after birth.(2) Im very grateful to them for seeing to, that, I was not introduced to the Jehovah Witness faith.

Come on Stump

Did you want the shrink to publish the whole of his files. You're grasping at straws.

I'm glad you at least concede that circs shouldn't be routine. Canada thankfully has only a 10% rate as opposed to 56% in the US.

That may be one explanation of the differing national attitudes, fearfulness being one of the side effects on the adult.

Never the twain shall meet

How do you masturbate without a foreskin?
Maybe that was the motivation for all the snipping: many establishments frown on self gratification. First there was Vaseline and now there are many varieties of "skin Lotions" with varying degrees of "staying power".

I have no idea what it is to live circumcised and those who have experienced that have no idea what it to live "hooded".

Sexual intercourse has got to be the goofiest of human pastimes

The Nectar of the Gods, Poon Tang.

doggone said,

Surely you jest? That’s like a right handed person asking a left handed person how can you masturbate with your left hand.

My hooded friend . If a foreskin gives the pleasure you allude to, then answer this, have you ever seen a hooded dildo, vibrator?

If there is anything more pleasurable than sexual intercourse (male-female) it sure as hell isn’t on this earth, Tail is the first thing on my mind in the morning, and last when I fall asleep at night ,than the tail dreams take over, started at age 15, over 60 now, and still going on , gotta say though the girls, who I was with as a youth are still the same age in my dreams , its only I who has aged. Who ever it was who designed the human female body did so, perfectly.

Foreskin face cream

Circucision the Filipino way does not take off any part of the foreskin. A tiny slit is made on the top of the foreskin down to the base of the glans penis. (I guess, it is akin to epidural slit made during the birthing.)It is done later after birth when the foreskin separates from the glans penis. The boy must be shown how to slowly, with time, pull down the foreskin to separate from the glands. The slit is almost painless, as I remember going through it. It is like the imaginary pain one feels before getting a hypodermic needle. The slıt must be kept clean and sanitized to prevent infection. During erection, the penis looks cırcumcise. Without erection, the penis looks uncut. Best of two worlds for and to me.