Opinion

Will Dion Be Paul Martin 2.0?

Key staff pick shows true economic colours.

By Murray Dobbin, 9 Jan 2007, TheTyee.ca

Stephane Dion

Dion: Massé hypnosis?

Mea culpa. My only excuse is pretty lame: taking a federal Liberal leader's statements and spin at face value.

In my last Tyee column looking at the next election, I got carried away with the widespread (by his supporters and others) notion that the new Liberal leader, Stéphane Dion, is a social liberal, a man to the left of his two predecessors, Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin. While anything (well, almost anything) is still possible, the evidence for Dion's progressive positioning is -- as a couple of friends gently pointed out to me -- pretty thin.

And getting thinner by the week.

The most recent evidence is found in revelations about Dion's new staff picks. Key amongst them, it seems to me, is Marcel Massé who, according to the Globe and Mail, will be Dion's principal secretary. Massé, a former senior cabinet minister under Chrétien, "will serve as the senior adviser in many areas." This should put to rest the debate going on amongst many people as to just what Dion's economic policies will be. But more than that, it is a disturbing revelation about where Dion sits vis-à-vis the role of government.

I suggested, based on listening to the man as he competed for the leadership, that Dion was a passionate believer in the role of government. But his principal secretary (and his cabinet colleague from the Chrétien era) could not be further from that belief unless he jumped off the scale. Massé's record in the Chrétien government marks him as one of the most dedicated neo-liberals and advocates of corporate globalization ever to hold a senior Canadian cabinet post.

Massé destruction

A long-time bureaucrat, Massé was a former Canadian director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and he is a hardliner on structural adjustment. He once stated: "It isn't just the Third World that needs structural adjustment -- we all do, in one form or another. We should avoid the temptation to let our desires for justice in the world obscure the view of reality." It leads me to wonder what Massé thinks of his boss's third policy pillar: social justice.

More than any single individual, Massé was responsible for designing the systematic gutting of the role of the federal government between 1995 and 1997, when Paul Martin's unprecedented budget cuts took place. He was chair of the Program Review Committee, which, despite its benign name, struck fear into the hearts of every Liberal cabinet minister and was referred to throughout the government as the Star Chamber. Cabinet ministers, even the most senior, were invited to the committee to receive -- not to discuss or debate -- their single piece of paper revealing the size of the cut to their departments. Paul Martin, Massé and Martin's deputy minister David Dodge (now head of the Bank of Canada) designed and implemented the most radical restructuring of the Canadian state in history.

Massé opposed across the board cuts -- he wanted, as did Paul Martin, to rewrite the role of government. So he saved the largest cuts of all for what we might call nation-building departments: transportation, natural resources, industrial and regional development, the environment, agriculture and fisheries. Then he delivered a savage, if not fatal, blow to the guiding principal of social program universality, killing the Canada Assistance Plan (CAP), which had provided national guidelines for social assistance since the era of Lester Pearson, and the long-standing (1977) Established Programs Financing, the method by which Ottawa provided targeted, accountable funding for health and post-secondary education to the provinces. These two programs were now to be delivered in a single lump sum to the provinces with no strings attached.

It was massive decentralization beyond anything Brian Mulroney had ever contemplated and greater than even Preston Manning had publicly called for. With the stroke of a pen, the three men reversed 40 years of federal leadership in social policy.

Dion versus labour

That Stéphane Dion has chosen this particular man to be his principal secretary comes as no surprise to those who have followed him closely.

When he first came to Ottawa, the academic he sought out for discussion and advice was none other than Tom Flanagan, the extreme-right Calgary School guru who advised and wrote policy for Preston Manning during the most critical years of the Reform Party's growth. Dion had spent a formative year at the Brookings Institution in the U.S., a strictly free-market research and policy institute whose public policy perspective is light years from the social liberalism of the Lester Pearson/Pierre Trudeau era.

His hard line on economic policy is also demonstrated in his attitude towards labour. His voting record on anti-scab legislation introduced by the Bloc and passed by the House? Dion opposed it twice and abstained once while most of the Liberal caucus (and even some Conservatives) voted in favour.

On his leadership candidate website, Stéphane Dion claimed: "My vision is that of a Canada that reconciles economic development, social development, environmental sustainability and public health better than any other country of our world." But he also said that he believed the vicious cuts to social spending by Paul Martin showed "compassion."

These two declarations are irreconcilable. So, too, are Dion's stated intention of creating jobs through the creation of a green economy and his hiring of Marcel Massé as his most important economic advisor. Taking an energy-guzzling economy focussed almost exclusively on exports to the U.S. and turning it into one based on environmental sustainability would require an enormous interventionist role for government. That is something Mr. Massé could never abide.

Maybe the secret is in Mr. Dion's pledge to model his first election campaign on Mr. Chrétien's winning 1993 bid. That election was based on the Red Book of promises. It turned out to be the Book of Lies. And even more reason not to give the Dion Liberals a majority.

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74  Comments:

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  • bpither1

    5 years ago

    Comments on "Will Dion Be Paul Martin 2.0?"

    And Mark Marissen husband to former Liberal BC MLA and deputy premier Clark ran his campaign? Go ahead Terry Glavin et al and vote for Dion if you think he is the alternative to the NDP. The Liberals are gifted at raising corporate cash while promising a face lift on their social agenda. Their commitment to a radical restructuring of environmental policy is no different and we have heard their promises before. Layton as glib as he may sound has a solid green record as a civic politician in Toronto and action speaks louder than words as the old saw goes.

  • Fiat lux

    5 years ago

    Of course, this story is a good example of the sordid fact that the so called "leaders" of any party are nothing more than front stooges for some shadowy backroom clique, all of whom, regardless of ideology, are hooked on to the criminal market capitalist, multinational economic theory.

    Unless the chain of this theory, choking and enslaving us, is broken and the real opposition builds up, not against these patsy politicians, but the universities where students are brainwashed with this crime wave, there won't be any improvement, regardless which Party forms the government.

    On the other hand, I still think a fascist Harpo majority is the worst case scenario and the quick end of Canada.

    Ed Deak, Big Lake.

  • Grumpy

    5 years ago

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. Dion, Harper, Layton, all from the same cut.

    To survive, Canada needs change and fast. The bureaucrats will not let the politicians change, lest they cut their influence. From the PM's ofice down to the lowly Canadian mayors, it is the unelected bureaucrats that are running things and badly!

    I'm voting Green, part in protest and part in seriousness, they are the only game in town.

  • stan

    5 years ago

    This is depressing. And to top it off, the current NDP is just an advocate for freaky fringe groups, so basically there is no one out there to represent working class people. (Big sigh.)

  • G West

    5 years ago

    As I've been struggling to point out to my friend the brain for the past five weeks, you have to pay very close attention to the company they keep.

    Perhaps now it'll be clear why there has been such an effort in place to obscure the real record of a couple of BC Liberals from their entries at Wikipedia.

    It may not be just provincial Liberals who'll be trying hard to find a way to get Basi, Virk and Basi through the python without attracting the public's attention during 2007.

  • MyBrainIsOnFire

    5 years ago

    run on the left, serve the right...liberal idiots, oh wait I mean the idiotic electorate which keeps voting for them again and again...and thanks to the consolidated press for ensuing only libs and cons can be considered reasonable choices presented to the public.

    of these things apathy makes.

  • jimtan

    5 years ago

    Neither harper nor Dion will get a majority.

    I'm not sure that the NDP and the unions will end up being champions of the environment.

  • Cynic

    5 years ago

    Ed said it. Dion is just the latest elite puppet to head the lying Libs. The real agenda is clear to anyone who cares to do a little scrutiny of what these people are up to. And the entire crop of political choices is pathetic, Layton included. Where are these "leaders" on the SPP, NAU, and the ftas? We are losing our country by stealth.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    For anyone who thinks that efforts aren't raging behind the scenes - by 'someone' - you can have a look at this page from wikipedia...read it carefully.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Erik_Bornmann

  • James Burns

    5 years ago

    You know, some journalist should write an article about the attempt by Bornman(n) supporters to subvert Wikipedia. If it drew some mainstream media attention it might throw a little sh*t on the fan. Hell that neo-con rag the National Post and their fascist columnists like Coyne always like to find stuff stick it to the Liberals over.

  • Fiat lux

    5 years ago

    The Greens are the outcrop of leftover, free trade, PC stooges, who were unhappy with the takeover of the "Party of Mulroney" by the Reform gang.

    Their slogan in the last elections was something like: "Environmentalism within the market economy ", or something similar.

    I'm a strong environmentalist, former Sierra Club exec in Vancouver, organic farmer and rancher, but wouldn't vote for them for anything. I'll vote NDP, but am very unhappy with the present noises, or the lack of them, from the Party and am trying to make some changes.

    If there are any unhappy NDP members out there, drop me a line at

    Perhaps if we get together and make some noise, we may do some good, both provincially and federally. Worth a try.

    Ed Deak.

  • MyBrainIsOnFire

    5 years ago

    Green party leader: former progressive conservative anti-abortionist elizabeth may - maybe that's why when I asked the green party of bc for their rules about running for the leadership of the BC Greens, I never did get an answer - I wasn't from the right cult to be considered eligible...

  • G West

    5 years ago

    Missing posts

    Editors:

    Were a number of comments lost in the transition to this new dashboard? I don't want to re-post if the missing material is going to re-appear in the normal course of events?

  • G West

    5 years ago

    It would seem they are lost

    Perhaps others might note that a lot of material has been lost this morning - some 3 hours of posts apparently on this thread alone.

    Whether or not anything there was worthy of rewriting and posting it up again is, I suppose, up to the individual.

  • MyBrainIsOnFire

    5 years ago

    it seems alright

    I haven't noticed any deletions - I saw this thread from the morning when it had 1 or 2 posts and was monitoring responses fairly regularly,,,,

  • G West

    5 years ago

    Didn't mean deletions per se

    There were comments made in the last 2.5 to 3 hours (that appeared in the old format) that have been lost in the switch.

  • woody

    5 years ago

    People, People, please try

    People, People, please try not to get your knickers in a knot over those lost comments, they were probably all pro Lieberals comments anyway.

  • BC Mary

    5 years ago

    This new format

    Dear Tyee:

    I do not recall anybody from The Tyee asking us, your faithful readers, if we wanted a new, jumbled, double-speaking, un-framed, incomplete flat space with red rules repeated time after time on a bare white expanse upon which to write our future comments.

    What was wrong with your tidy, accessible, uncomplicated mailboxes we used in the past?

    Assuming you are now wondering whether I want this new system to replace your nice old set-up:

    No ... I don't. Thanks all the same. What were you thinking!

  • BC Mary

    5 years ago

    Furthermore ... grey on cream print?

    Now what do I do? I've already said what I wanted to say, up there in the silly subject box.

    Why the "fade to grey" lunar landscape?

    The printed text is not clear. Not easy to read.
    I repeat: what were you thinking!

  • ursus

    5 years ago

    I am with you BC Mary this

    I am with you BC Mary this new format sucks, I don't like it!

  • ursus

    5 years ago

    I hate reading text twice,

    I hate reading text twice, like what is with this? Been offline for quite awhile and when I finally get access to the net my favourite news site has been changed.

  • ursus

    5 years ago

    Not happy with seeing the

    Not happy with seeing the commenting rules in RED after every post.

  • Cynic

    5 years ago

    bad format

    I like the new option of previewing, but the new format is bad. We also don't need the comment rules link, thank you.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    Subject explanation

    If you don't post 'something' in the 'Subject' box it defaults to the first few words in your comment. The repetitive 'commenting rules' script IS annoying and the de-emphasis of the poster's name is frustrating - especially given the fact that a frequently-meaningless 'subject' title is dark bold type by default.

    The preview pane is an improvement though. But I agree that the new typeface is anemic. Almost tempts one to tag a complete post bold to overcome it.

    I suppose the indented text for quotations is okay but, truth to tell, I preferred the box method...

    I wonder if these changes are set in stone or can be modified. The HTML 'tags' icons are also ridiculous - in my view.

    In a way, this new format is preferable to the level the pre-existing system had sunk to before it was replaced. Was that done on purpose to make these 'improvements' less annoying?

  • marta

    5 years ago

    Dion

    I'm not fond of Mariessen and Clark, to put it mildly, and I am very sad about Dion's win. I cannot for the life of me see how he will face global challenges and, let's face it, he is charisma challenged. As for his ties to Bay Street, I'm not so convinced that he will be so beholden.

    I agree with the posters who don't like the faded grey type. Hey, I'm old! I can't see!

  • Fiat lux

    5 years ago

    Just one more vote against

    Just one more vote against this new format.

    Why fix something that worked OK all this time, just for the sake of change ?

    Ed Deak.

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    I've written what?

    Hey, it tells us how many comments we've written now.

  • MyBrainIsOnFire

    5 years ago

    Alright Master Designer Speaks

    and sez that it's just a little flipped around - if they have the large, subject bold type (maybe a littler bigger than it is now relative to body text) grey and then made the body/commenting text black, it would aid in readability as well as helping the red to be less noticeable, however the "Commenting rules" need to be much smaller and body or less weight.

    been designing stuff coast to coast for 20 years. whatever...

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    Competitive juices flowing

    Now that I know how many I've posted I'm feeling the need to see a table so I can compare my prolificness with others. Is this a male thing??

  • MyBrainIsOnFire

    5 years ago

    oh and

    the body commenting text should be regular text weight and not bold/medium etc, as it appears now if black.

    thanks

  • woody

    5 years ago

    BC Mary said, Quote:Dear

    BC Mary said,

    Quote:
    Dear Tyee
    I do not recall anybody from The Tyee asking us, your faithful readers, if we wanted a new, jumbled, double-speaking, un-framed, incomplete flat space with red rules repeated time after time on a bare white expanse upon which to write our future comments.
    What was wrong with your tidy, accessible, uncomplicated mailboxes we used in the past?
    Assuming you are now wondering whether I want this new system to replace your nice old set-up:
    No ... I don't. Thanks all the same. What were you thinking!

    I agree 110%

  • woody

    5 years ago

    That's it for me Im logging

    That's it for me Im logging off, good night all, maybe even good bye.

  • Capitalism

    5 years ago

    This is Pathetic

    Give me a break. Dion had corporate Canada trembling in its boots. This guy is a believer in big government and the left knows this.

    What this is a campaign against Mr. Harper. Let the propaganda begin. The Tyee realizes that it is going to take a lot more that capturing a few NDP votes for Dion to win.

    He is going to have to capture many votes from the right side of centre - because, there are more voters right of the Liberals than there are left.

    The race is on for the Anti-Harperites to convince Canadians that Mr. Dion is not a big government, high tax guy. The Liberals were able to capture 3 majority's under Chritien for two reasons: (1) there was no unified right wing party, and (2) canadians rewarded the one thing they actually accomplished: debt and deficit reduction.

  • maestro

    5 years ago

    Something we can agree on

    I'll add to the Chorus:

    I was typing a response to G WEST on the Condo issue...(now about to be archived).

    I pressed the "POST COMMENT", then the computer went wonky. The topic announced that it was closed for discussion,.... NO WARNING , NO COUNTDOWN,.... as G West had just posted less than an hour previously(this was mid day). I couldn't retrieve my attempted post, it was gone forever.

    Why can't a deadline time for posts be established, say "X" time on "Y" day ?

    While we all may agree to disagree amongst ourselves as to what we have written, I have read of my other TYEE colleagues complain about posts that evaporate. Its a real pain to put ones views down , then edit, revise, final draft, then send, and then POOF..gone.

    THEN I couldn't log- in...everything slowed down , and eventually I could log- on a while later. Then, after all this, I saw we had a NEW Format

    I guess we'll have to give this NEW format a chance, BUT I really didn't see too much wrong with the OLD one.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    [b]More problems with new format[/b]

    In addition to seconding maestro's motion relative to providing better warnings (although in fairness, there was a small note about changes in the works on the upper right of the sideboard) I'd like to point out that closed conversations - at least some of them - are being reduced to an unreadable blur. The child poverty thread is an example and I'm sure there are others.

    If you can't search an archived article with the naked eye there's little point in having an archive.

    I can understand the difficulties that attend such a switch-over but it appears to me that some aspects of this change haven't been addressed.

    I'm sure the editors will notice.

    I hope they'll take some of these concerns into account and make the necessary changes.

    At this point, if it were to come to a vote, my preference would be to forget this new dashboard and return to a system which was working (although it did need maintenance) very well.

    Just fix the '3 blog references' glitch and everyone would have been happy.

    My view.

    And for God's sake get rid of the subject box - it's redundant. Maestro and I have few enough things we agree on.

  • murdock

    5 years ago

    STAR CHAMBER

    Quote:
    He {Massé} was chair of the Program Review Committee, which, despite its benign name, struck fear into the hearts of every Liberal cabinet minister and was referred to throughout the government as the Star Chamber.

    With Massé being selected for such a high office again we should all get ready to see Quebec take an even greater share of federal largesse, none of it being 'above board' either, and see the powers of the PMO expand beyond all reasonable limits.

    Dion is a marionette, with Darth Cretinous pulling his strings...

    If you liked the Cretin (spelled wrong ON PURPOSE) years then vote away your future on the LIEberals.

    If you did not, then I propose voting Independant only - ignore all the 'main line' parties.

  • maestro

    5 years ago

    Ditto

    Good points Murdock:

    Peel back the layers, so then what's really going on???

    Saw Dion on Rick Mercer last night, and my suspicions were further verified.

    Dion seems to be a nice guy.
    Problem: = Oh No!!!

    When Mulroney "nuked" the LIEberals in the 1980's they were reduced to the Rat Pack. Later, Mulroney perhaps saw the TORY writing on the wall...and a new TORY leader was chosen, aka Kim Campbell. Some say she was set up to be the Fall Guy/Gal. The campaign was a disater, and it seemed the Federal Election hinged on Chretien's "looks" (sympathy vote) versus any real substance, albeit Chretien himself felt he was owed the turn to be PM after having paid his LIEberal dues as a career politician , and defeated Paul Martin was left as a "Brutus" in the making.

    Dion impresses Chretien's wife, yada -yada -yada ...and brought into the LIEberal fold...but "Dion = Chretiens boy" regardless.

    "Brutus Martin" feels its his turn, pulls the knives on Chretien. Martin is PM and all LIEberals are considered part of the fold, including Dion. Paul Martin sorta does a Mulroney, except he goes down versus having a scapegoat. No real sh!te sticks to Dion...didn't Martin ignore/avoid him intially ?

    Dion is somewhat Teflon-ish...but I see parallels with Kim Campbell. Dion , in my view, is as Murdock says...too aligned/rooted with Chretien. Dion is Chretien's successor ,his protege -apprentice...I can see the Chretien-esque legacy now...and the smirk on Chretien's face that Martin "got his" and see who was "ultimately THE man left standing ". Answer= a Chretien protege'

    However, like Kim Campbell, Dion is simply transitional till the dust settles... and things regroup. Federal Lieberals are like the NDP, rudderless and getting trumped. This is now simply a long term boxing match amongst the Opposition with no KO on the horizon...maybe not even TKO's .

    I think Dion's scuccesor is already being groomed as we speak.

    Again, Dion appears to be a nice guy, a PhD, who admitted to Rick Mercer on CBC that he changed his political views after getting sh!t faced for 3 hours with a Federalist, OK...."a man of the people"? but not leadership material.

    PS Good ol Rick Mercer commented about would marrying the dog "Kyoto" be made legal?...as well as Dion's dog "Kyoto" couldn't catch the frisbee thrown .

    Hmm.

  • Coyote

    5 years ago

    On Sharing the Same Pair of Shorts...

    Just another example of mistaking form for content, Tyee. Keep the masses dazzled with the "bling"!

    You know we lefties, and many on the vertical "totalitarian graph, which also "tends" to include "most" of the self same lefties, are really "conservatives" in our heart of hearts. :-) We want very particular "social content" change. Change for its own sake, for the market, is a violation of our collective culture and comfort zone and is a pain in our small c "conservative" derrière.

    I understand the dilemma of many of you NDP folks, in these days when the obviousness of your party's coalescence, attempt to share the urinal with the Big Boys of the Ruling Class managed "democratic system" is unavoidable, and increasingly clear in its betrayal consequences. It's a bitter pill to swallow. Not unlike one I previously swallowed myself in the still chain stoking past.

    Quote:
    Ed said it. Dion is just the latest elite puppet to head the lying Libs.

    'Cause its true. This entire bullshitt, ruling class managed, money corrupted system of democracy is already by now exposed, and you along with the Libs and the rest of the Parliamentary System "actors" have all played your part in removing its clothing-, to the point of this naked, dicky showing obviousness.

    By now already, new strategies, forms of organization which are integrated into the needs and around the issues of the mass of folks, building parallel and challenging structures and new forms of democracy, capable of challenging this Old Order are by now, or should be, equally apparent. What the Capitalist State is no longer willing or capable to do to maintain egalitarianism and a sense of peace and well-being in society, collectively shared, folks need to begin to take on for themselves, feeding, clothing and housing our own class poor, organizing minimum and just plain old piss poor paid workers, and building a challenge to this Bullshitt State at the same time, needs to replace the Old "vanguardist" and elitist/careerist "Party" structures.

    Already nearly as many "eligible" folks do not vote at all, in every election, as do. As play "the game".

    We need to stop giving this system the appearance of and claim to legitimacy with our vote-, by simply withdrawing it, and focus on our own collective needs and interests, taking care of ourselves and those who have been placed outside "the system", and organize our own "parallel" power to "the system", as can perhaps eventually, if we are astute and persistant, eventually challenge it for ruling legitimacy-, in the economy and other essential structures of society. We need a new vision of "democracy" that actually seeks to provide the structures and other means for the mass of us to rule over our own affairs within these structures-, rooting out the elitism and ruling presumptions of privilege within them.

    Ehhh. It's as good of shitt, and more like to succeed as you vanguardist evangelicals really got to offer-, whatever the anal stripe colour of your shorts. Into which you are all collectively fitted together in the same pair in any case, sharing farts and God knows what all in that common "steam bath" Sin Pit. :-)

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    dion's a fart. the

    dion's a fart. the honeymoon with the eastern media will only last for a short while. as soon as the arrogant libs start sniping at each other the media will change their focus. translates into a minority for harper, especially since he's taken the environment out of dion's hands now.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    Elliot hasn't learned a thing, apparently

    Quote:
    dion's a fart. the honeymoon with the eastern media will only last for a short while. as soon as the arrogant libs start sniping at each other the media will change their focus. translates into a minority for harper, especially since he's taken the environment out of dion's hands now.

    Still impossible to appreciate and respect someone who can't admit when they're wrong. As for the rest: it's blather, no basis in fact or truth and it means absolutely nothing.

  • acadian driftwood

    5 years ago

    Dion is Neville Chamberlain

    Dion hasn't got a chance. where's the base? quebec? western canada?

    I'll just lean back and watch him implode. So will Iggy...

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    Is Harper Hitler?

    I was going to say that now that I am able to log in things are fine with me. Yeah, the text is a bit hard to read and the login process seems a bit more cumbersome, but here we are anyway and glad to be here.

    Dion came on fairly strong what with his tying the Cons in the polls for a while. It remains to be seen whether he can win an election or govern a country but so far Harper has proved he can do neither

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    libel

    you have to love guys like doggone and hannibal who accuse others of being nazis etc. in a forum where they're protected by their blog names. chickenshit cowards all!

  • G West

    5 years ago

    G West to Elliot

    Quote:
    libel
    Commentor
    Elliot
    1 minute ago

    you have to love guys like doggone and hannibal who accuse others of being nazis etc. in a forum where they're protected by their blog names. chickenshit cowards all!

    I see you're still up to it. I think you're the coward, el and those fellas aren't the only ones spreading dirt. As a matter of fact, if you look back at 'elliot's' posts over any period of time I'd say your quoted remarks are a far better description of your own, non-sports comments, than anything I could say. Thanks.

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    libel

    Do you do not understand punctuation?
    I guess it's a bit complex but I'll try to explain it:
    The question mark implies that the writer is asking a question. In the above posts I was responding to accadian Driftwood's statement that Dion is Neville Chamberlain.
    There was a connection
    I hope

  • G West

    5 years ago

    doggone from G West

    I got your point.

    Elliot, of course, wouldn't.

    He thinks he and acadian driftwood have carte blanche to say anything they want, as crude and nasty as they like - in unpunctuated phrases - about anyone they happen to disagree with. Hannibal, to be fair, sometimes reacts in a similar way. I think Elliot’s attack on you was uncalled for.

    In Hannibal’s favour I’d have to say that the couple of times I was involved in a conversation with him and he went too far he pulled back and apologized when I mentioned it.

    I don't actually think Elliot is a bad guy, he thinks somehow the NDP has hurt him personally and he has a real bone to pick with teachers.

    I'd gladly discuss any subject with him any time if he'd behave civilly. Until then, it's just sports.

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    So back to Murray's article

    Dion looked good to me. It's got me thinking when someone like Dobbin has second thoughts.

    But what alternatives are there out there? Maybe if we wait long enough another Treudeu will arise. We do not have that amount of time.

    I'm still leaning toward voting Liberal (which I have yet to do) to dump the Cons. If some other party had any chance to defeat Harper I might vote for them because that is the point: The world has changed and Canadian Politics has not.

    If Dion turns out to be just as bad then we have to vote him out next

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    nice try doggone. like i

    nice try doggone. like i said before; easy to libel anonymously. i'd love to see you guys use this kind of language in a public forum. not only would you have your ass sued, but you'd be exposed for the fools that you are.

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    hey doggone; who's treudeu?

    hey doggone; who's treudeu?

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    Elliots crying again

    For years you've been whining away that some so and so called you a Nazi. Years. Your constant over the top mock outrage is pretty damn funny I'll admit (kind of like the two old guys on the Muppets) but if you really don't like being called names then stop calling everyone else names or just go away.

    As for suing your little nazi ass the teachers would have sued you for calling them commies and nazis years ago if they had ever given a rat's ass about your drivel.

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    find the post where i called

    find the post where i called someone a nazi frank and i'll apologize. as usual you're blathering nonsense.

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    by the way frankie boy;

    by the way frankie boy; since you just called me a nazi, could i have your last name? didn't think so... you lefties only blather about free speech when it suits your particular needs. nothing new there.

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    Cheddar with your whine Elliot?

    No argument from you about calling people "commie" (among other things) then I guess.

    Why don't you repeat what you've said about Jinny Sims and teachers in general in a public paper Elliot?

    Gee, guess you use anonymous handles (nemesis and elliot) because you're afraid of being sued by Jinny eh?

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    jinny's been called worse

    jinny's been called worse frankie. did you see any of the editorial cartoons last spring? didn't realize that commie had the same sinister implications as nazi. news to me frankie boy.

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    Ignorance is bliss

    Everything is news to you.

    Somehow I doubt your argument of "she's been called worse" would stand up in court. If you think I'm wrong go ahead and write that letter to Pacific Press and sign your last name.

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    are you actually trying to

    are you actually trying to assert that calling someone a communist could be libelous frank?

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    ding ding

    Exactly the same as calling someone a nazi

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    i'd say we have quite a

    i'd say we have quite a difference of opinion on that one frank. nothing new there either.

  • Frank

    5 years ago

    Nothing new there at all

    But it would only take a printed letter in PacPress with your last name to find out if Jinny thinks being called a "commie" (and "bitch" too as I recall) is offensive and as worth suing over as being called "nazi".

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    didn't call her that frank,

    didn't call her that frank, and this is getting boring. must sleep. night.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    Boring

    You're right about that El. You are boring.
    I would never call you a nazi though El. It's pretty clear what you are.

    You're a bully. Every school yard, every kids' sports team had one.

    You just never grew out of it.

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    i love you too g. but i'm

    i love you too g. but i'm starting to worry about you. you really need to tear yourself away from this site, at least every once in a while. it can't be healthy to be obsessing about me 24/7.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    To elliot

    I see it as therapy for you. I'm trying to help you grow up. Therefore it's time not wasted - no one is so lost they cannot be redeemed.

    I've done that for a lot of bullies in my time.

    Already I've noticed a marked improvement in the kinds of things you post. We'll have you in the ranks of adults before much longer. Either that or you'll just be a sportsman and stop trying to be a critic.

    Have a good weekend.

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    Politics

    I'm actually interested in whether or not Dion will do a better job than Harper.

    My "communist" leanings and concern for the environmental issues say he could not do worse - I don't trust him for some of the reasons mentioned above. It would be interesting if a sensible conservative supporter could outline why she/he thinks Harper is a good choice

  • Coyote

    5 years ago

    You guys are just too, too

    You guys are just too, too nice to "the weasel", GWest and Frank. I don't see any improvement in his "adult reasoning" or verbalization skill capacities whatsoever. :-)

    Just the same old, same old "weasel" whose always been coming in here to take his grunts and dumps, draw some of his erect phallus porn graffiti on these Tyee threads, wipe his arse and leave.

    That's about as much grey matter display as you're going to get out of him; grunts, burps and farts as political repartee.

    Go ahead, listen to your gut instincts, and use him as a door mat. One's "dark side" has its role to play in the grand scheme of things too, especially involving weasly Little Dictators Chaplinesque.

  • G West

    5 years ago

    Dion = Martin 2.0

    This, clipped from today's paper, would suggest the proposal bruited above is a strong possibility - maybe even a probability:

    Quote:
    STEPHANE DION, the new Liberal leader, had the party's national election campaign co-chair Mark Marissen introduce him to local Indo-Canadian heavies and apparatchiks at a South Hall banquet facility powwow recently.

    All would have heard of the Dion leadership campaign being reportedly $600,000 in the hole, while the party has $2.4 million or so to make up.

    But the price that attendees most wanted to know was the one to put on words.

    With Paul Martin and Gordon Campbell having delivered fewer patronage plums to them than many Indo-Canadian supporters thought they'd been promised for their efforts, they'll expect something more concrete from Dion.

    And not the concrete blocks some felt were smashed against their heads before.

    Malcolm Parry, Vancouver Sun
    Published: Saturday, January 13, 2007

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    I got it

    Dion has and will have (if he becomes Prime Minister) his problems.
    He came across as someone at least cognizant of the environment. Harper does not make those noises - or I do not hear them.

    Canadians polled are very concerned with "Global Warming" et all. So am I.

    Again: It does not really matter if this "climate Change" is due to Human pollution.

    It is happening anyway. We need people in the seats who can function in chaos and "lead" us on a sensible path. My impression of Harper and his Conservatives is: they live in a world that has passed. Dion may not be up to the challenge but somebody has to do it.

    Yank that sword out of the stone
    Somebody
    please

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    must have forgot to logout

    Dion is just now making Google News with questions about Husky Oil's proposal to use Nuclear power to produce oil and gasoline from the "Tar Sand".
    By the way: the earthquakes in the Kuril Islands are significant but nothing new.
    Hang on to your hat

  • hannibal

    5 years ago

    Neos vs. Liberals

    The neos have proven themselves to be mean spirited,power hungry despots with out a clue on how to operate Canada let alone write bullet proof legislation that will withstand a Charter challenge .
    Now Herr Harpo is going to try and tie his little red wagon to California's gubernator (Arnold)in regards to the enviornment .
    Big difference is that Arnold actually has the brains and guts to enact strict legislation and is unafraid of big business.
    Partisan politics are a bygone era in California's state legislature as Arnold has equal numbers of Dems and Republican's on each commitee .
    It was no accident he won the last election in a landslide .
    Harpo on the other hand is merely using Arnold for optics to say "Yea, me too"
    Without ,really,doing anything about the enviornment other than paying lip service .
    Al Gores 'An Inconvenient Truth' has had a profound impact on Canada .
    Four to one Canadians support the Dems over the Republicans . That is huge .
    And as Harpo has aligned himself with the dummy from down south he can expect to get wiped out in the next election .

  • Elliot

    5 years ago

    nice blather hannibal.

    nice blather hannibal. still waiting for that name...

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    another "Inconvenience"

    Could be that some Canadians have not needed to be exposed to Al's movie - they just look out the window and judge the weather they see to be very inconvenient. Then there is Suzuki on the "weather Channel".

    I don't care who makes the changes necessary. I'd vote for Harper if I thought (or saw) that he was serious about climate change.
    Hot air promises are the last thing we need now.

    As Suzuki said ordinary people have not wanted to hear his (carefully considered) message about climate change. I don't want to hear it either. I would prefer to click on CTV/CNN/CBC and hear that everything is just fine and tomorrow's weather will be nice, the Ice shelves have returned to their traditional positions and the Polar Bear is thriving.

    Salter Films could do these reports (using selected old footage of calm warm beaches with no plastic bottles floating about) with a straight face: "This Hour Has 22 Postcard Memories"

  • hannibal

    5 years ago

    Harsh Indictment

    That is a sad indictment of our times Dog .
    What I want to know is once the ice is gone how will we ever get it back ? How long will it take for the cooling engine to be re-charged ?
    The fact is ,is that the movie by Al Gore has had an enormous effect on the Canadian psyche .
    And people do want to hear the message Dog .
    That is why it is now the number one issue facing Canadians .

  • BC Mary

    5 years ago

    Breaking news: Jamie Elmhirst resigns as Liberal president

    January 15, 2007 - Public Eye Online
    Sooner rather than later

    Jamie Elmhirst has resigned as the president of the federal Liberals in British Columbia. Earlier, there had been talk he wouldn't be seeking re-election at the party's annual provincial general meeting - scheduled for April. But, in a letter sent to Liberal executives, Mr. Elmhirst writes, "With the potential for a spring 2007 federal election campaign still strong, it is not inconceivable that our convention could be delayed again until the fall." That coming election means the party "needs a president...completely focused and committed to winning more Liberal seats in British Columbia." And - because of "many important personal commitments over the coming year, including my wedding in July and the need to focus on my busines" - Mr. Elmhirst doesn't believe he can "deliver the level of commitment and focus that the organization deserves." His responsibilities will be transferred to British Columbia vice-president Rex Renkema . The following is a complete copy of Mr. Elmhirst's letter.

    January 15, 2007
    Member of the LPC (BC)
    Provincial Executive

    Dear Provincial Executive Members,

    It has been an incredible honour and privilege to serve as President of the Liberal Party of Canada (BC) for the last two years. During that time we have faced the challenge of a tough federal election and an invigorating party leadership process.

    As a result of our party leadership convention, our own LPC (BC) AGM was delayed until April 2007. With the potential for a spring 2007 federal election campaign still strong, it is not inconceivable that our convention could be delayed again until the fall.

    At this time more than any, the LPC (BC) needs a president and a provincial executive completely focused and committed to winning more Liberal seats in British Columbia to help build a Liberal national government. With many important personal commitments over the coming year, including my wedding in July and the need to focus on my business, I do not believe that I can deliver the level of commitment and focus that the organization deserves.

    Effective immediately, I am resigning my position as president of the Liberal Party of Canada (BC) and turning my responsibilities over to Rex Renkema, our Vice-President. I know all of you know and respect Rex tremendously, as do I. He will do an excellent job until our party membership has the opportunity to choose a new president.

    I will of course, remain active in the party, especially locally on Southern Vancouver Island.

    I want to thank all of you for being so supportive and working so hard. I especially want to thank all of the staff at LPC (BC) headquarters that I have had the opportunity to work with. The commitment and dedication you bring to your work is a large part of the reason why Liberals in British Columbia are regarded as having the one of very best political organizations in all of Canada.

    Regards,

    Jamie Elmhirst

    Cc: Paul McKivett, Chair BCFLC
    Posted by Sean Holman at 05:30 PM
    Permanent link

    Comments on: Sooner rather than later

    A cynical person would say this has something to do with the setting of a trial date for the bc rail case. Hmmmmmmm, this is a lot like Kieran's sudden retirement in April 06, just days before search warrant information was released by the court exposing some very unflattering behavior!
    Posted by Jill on January 15, 2007 07:51 PM

  • doggone

    5 years ago

    Gotcha

    Hannibal:
    As far as I can tell we are not disagreeing. I believe this issue is the most pressing.

    I may sound flippant but I am attempting to keep my own spirits up.

    Just had a morning with my grandson. I enjoy him by ignoring the future he faces. He had no input to this but he will be living with what we have done and any "responses" we come up with in the next few years.
    I hope he too can play with his grandson in a benign world.

    And if that can not come to pass I hope he inherits a lot of my "Black Humour"

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