The minute some political pundit starts yapping their head off about a new definition of this country we open up a can of worms best ignored. Doesn't anyone get it yet? Canada works best in practise and not in theory. That's why Quebec will never separate in the literal sense of the word, and why she will never be part of the body politic understood as an United Canada. There will be another referendum and if the Sovereignists win what do you think will happen after the Entertainment Industrial Complex wreaks havoc with the result? The financial class in Montreal and Toronto, the real pulse takers of our "nations" will do everything they can to stem the panic selling of the Canadian Dollar and another famous, or infamous if you will, national compromise will stop the rot.

Seperation is coming faster than anyone thinks. With the vastly growing south asian and asian population because of our immigration policies in BC, the second, third, etc. generations of these immigrants will find they have little or nothing in common with the 'French' connection and the special laws granted to the French.

They will also tire of the 'First Nations' givaways as they will percieve that the F.N. question has nothing to do with them.

This will create the mix for BC seperation from Canada and even the annexation of the Yukon and Alberta.

Special nation status for Quebec will only steepen the slippery slope of the dissolution of Canada.

The eternal question, especially on THE TYEE , of what IS Canada, really ?

May be we should continue to define what Canada is. In my view it always has been an amalgam of balkanized interests within balkanized states/Provinces. In a past TYEE topic, it was noted that the Quebec political leaders, ironically, have perhaps the best insight, ie claiming Canada is not a real country.

Perhaps the rest of Canada, the so-called sum of its parts, are having the same epiphany like Quebec did, and a Quiet Revolution is also brewing outside Quebec .

The First Nations Treaties issue , in my view, is simply adding dynamite to the already existing cracks and fissures in the so-called unity , rather than perhaps ANY sort of glue. This FN issue is simply legacy/brownie points. Doesn't BC for example, have a disproportional number of FN groups as opposed to the rest of Canada ? Are we creating mini Quebec scenarios in our own midst?

The political leaders don't want to be perceived as as NOT part of a solution to FN treaties, so they will decide to draft something come hell or high water, consequences be damned.

Its basically "F" it , "Just Do It" and 4Q .

Our leadership almost takes a cue from P Herr Trudeau, a sort of dare us to challenge or question them, or "watch me" attitude. Its simply Gov't actively catering to special interest groups...or reacting to their demands, and walking through this political minefield with a political GPS in the attempt to acquire and maintain power.

That seems to be the basic less and less of a secret formula. Yet they wonder why us other natives are getting restless ?

dude, when I hear announcers on the CBC Newsworld, say things like it's "not Canadian to speak back" and how the CBC uses foreign -born people to berate Cnadians born here not to dissent and complain (see how bad conditions are in the rest of the world, be quiet, move along, don't talk back" I don't morn the death of Canada if it means some of us can go to the USA and be part of that nation.

You can cry all you want about the evil that is being done in the name of the USA, but their constitution and checks and balances (a concept bereft up here) they are the greatest nation in the history of the world.

Remember, never believe your own PR (ie Canada, the most greatest good guys in the world - nonsense in reality).

Rafe hit the nail on the head when he said that at least Trudeau had an understanding of Quebec and the issues. What is left unsaid is that Mulroney was happy to prositute himself and our country in order to atain and keep power. Canada has now been plunged intoa crisis that will continue for a number of years. Or at least until la Belle Province takes its option to depart. What astounds me is that Canada has taken the road of sitting and waiting rather than laying plans for the inevitable. As a nation we as Canucks seem happier to take the ostrich aproach rather than see writing on the wall and be prepared. No better example can be cited than Chretien's tact during the last referendum. Run hide and if caught stick your head in the sand.; Hardly Chretiens best hour. Many polls taken in Quebec show the among children of Immigrants there is growing support for seperation. Gone are the stereo typed immigrants and enter the new children of immigrants who do not fear Quebec departure from Canada. What worries me is not Quebec leaving but is there time to stop the spiral of constant giving to the provinces and out of control decentralization. Only then in my opinion can we even beging to keep our country and Canadian identity

I think much of the problem comes from the sort of either-or logic which generally underlies European discourse. Such logic finds a concept like unity in diversity difficult to understand. Hence all the problems about multi-culturalism, dual citizenship and whatnot. It is even more difficult for such a worldview to comprehend that groups which seek autonomy might at the same time wish for cooperation with others. With such a limited worldview, FN's seeking sovereignty means balkanization, Quebecois doing likewise, the “break up of Canada”. What is forgotten is that in very practical terms both FN's and Quebecois NEED the rest of Canadians (if nothing more than for protection from the USA) and hence even if granted autonomy, some sort of unitary, cooperative political arrangement would come about. What is also forgotten is that federalism is a “bottom-up” PROCESS and not a THING granted from above by an elite. Canada was constructed by an imperial elite with the various groups making up the state having little say in its creation. Hence the continual push-and pull for more autonomy, a movement which could eventually give rise to a new, far more genuine federation.

A federation is not a division of powers, with the people at the top deciding to give some authority to the lower levels of government. Federation is a coming together of autonomous constituent groups freely deciding to give up certain powers to a federal authority as a means to aid these different groups. Cooperation means mutual benefit. Those aspects which make sense to keep at the group level or which the groups wish to retain for whatever reason, are kept at that level. Canada was not constructed in this manner and sufferers accordingly. We need a peoples movement to create a new and genuine federation, one that satisfies all of us.

Rafe's columns are ALWAYS worth reading and a breath of fresh air. Which doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. Regarding Quebec, I highly recommend A Short History of Quebec by Professors Dickinson and Young
http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=1275.

If we don't read Quebec's history, we'll never be able to be a good partner. The history captures very clearly English finanical interests which sought to control most of Quebec's wealth. In a well known "deal" with the Quebec Catholic church, business got to keep the wealth, and the Church would control the people. Such a deal.

It all self destructed in the 1960's when the Quiet Revoluion finally freed Quebecers from this yoke. It remains no wonder that Quebec is now one of the most secular provinces in Canada, a clear indictment of the failure of organized religion to help its own people. Ever since Quebec took control of its resources, English mercantilism has been sulking ever since. And if they can make Quebec pay, they will. Over and over again.

Go to Quebec today and you will see one of the most progessive, well organized, democratic sociallist societies in the world. Something we could all learn from, if English Canada's financial interests would only let us. Not likely.

Thus, millions of Canadians turn to the Tyee and other free presses to learn about things like this.

Let's read the tea leaves...properly.

Seems too many feel a magic wand will be waived and all will be well. However, this is both the start and continuation of a political equivalent of an old -growth forest sustained by the Canadian polit" burro" status - quo. It is also becoming more and more a-political...ie all the same.

The die were cast decades ago, with P Herr Trudeau trumpeted as "the tie that binds" No, he and his poli-tenure was simply poor - quality duct tape re: national unity that would make even Red Green shudder. Leadership makes the tough calls in the collective's best interest, thus what if we had a leader who actually stood up to Quebec and stopped the spoil child routine. However, in defence of Quebecers, I often wonder if Trudeau gave then cue cards to act spoiled so as to spoil them more. Maybe Trudeau was also the first example/model of In- Site...Quebec as client..create an addict?

I think Trudeau was a not too UNcommon Candian political phenom...someone who ACTUALLY is more suprised to be in charge than those who voted them in, or via protest vote( Hello Bob Rae /Dave Boy as Premier )...and then they get addicted to power and resort to carte blanche to stay in power.

Trudeau could rarely, if ever give a straight answer,would often deflect the questions into some poor comedy routine,and had a poor handle on economics, EXCEPT the Tax,... Bribe..Nationalize and Spend facet , often turning Loonies into domestic Francs and Ontario pesos.

He set the template for all future leaders. However, perhaps justice will prevail, what goes around come around, and his own party will see this all boomerang and bite itself in the ass.

Lets use the laws of physics and create some balance of forces, ie "here are OUR demands or else "sayonora"...at minimum cancel out the Whiny balkan state/ special interest groups and Provinces elsewhere and their demands.

and

Rafe, not unlike the 1837 rebellion, this court action, is a loreli signal to those within the Quebecios nation to 'elect their own magistrates'.

This issue, PQ separation, is treated the same by all the "National" parties, LIEberal, CONservative and NonDP; it is only the BQ that is taking anything even remotely close to an opposition view -> thus the reason why the BQ is able to be elected in Quebec. For Quebecois nationalists none of the "National" parties can ever 'represent' their interests, ever.

Pointing out the Seven Years War connection is very apt, since it is the 'definining moment' in Canadian history so far. In my view, and I am not alone, the 'repatriated' constitution is worthless, especially since the Quebec National Assembly did not ratify it. This simply means that, in reality, we are either governing using the BNA (without oversight from Her Majesty's Government) with the Human Rights and Freedoms document stapled to the BNA's yellowed pages.

If bpither1 is right:

Then I think we can all start to 'practice' the Canada is a different way.

Tell Ottawa to go 'piss up a rope' regarding any further tribute. No more taxes, either income, or trade-based from things within Canada (like the hated GST). Any further taxes must be agreed to by either National Referenda or 100% provincial agreement.

This would empty the trough from which the pigs in Ottawa feed, reams of pink slips would be sent out (as is so desperately needed) and the Provinces would much more correctly find the funds needed for things like Health, Education and Economic Development (like roads in infrastructure -> such as wireless data expansion, as is going on in Asian industrial nations).

The 'old world' nations that span massive continents are going the way of the do-do. Rafe is right, unless we face this potential future and start to think about ways and means to continue on in a crumbling nation and what 'our' response to it should be then the results of that crash will either be controlled by those whom have thought about it and have a plan or result in a chaos which no-one will enjoy.

The date that any Prime Minister actually starts to use the public resources at his or her disposal to put a concrete public plan in place to deal with Quebec separation will be a date referenced in the future on a par with those above (i.e. 1759, 1837, 1983, etc.) It will be the date when the wheels really will come off.

gee ain't it a bitch when a minority gets all uppity and moves politically as a solid block in its own interests.

English elites can only moan and cry that just a small slice of the rest of Canada does what it's told and buys into the neo-liberal propaganda. The rest go off in all directions, diluting the vote.

The difficulties Canada has had over unity in the later '80s and '90s was due to Mulroney's idiotic coalition. Of course the historical abuses of francophones laid the foundation.

What surprised me about this latest blip of Canadian unity questioning is just how entrenched the bigotry toward francophones in a hell of a lot of English Canada really is. Dion's dual citizenship... what a load of crap. Why had this argument never been raised before over Brits? Why? Because the issue isn't loyalty, because who could question Dion's loyalty? No, it's simple bigotry. Scratch the surface of many English Canadians, and look at the disgusting behavior that spurts out. It's little wonder so many in Quebec want a separate nation to protect themselves from that kind of idiocy.

To wit here are few quotes to demonstrate just that bigotry:

maestro vomits:

What condescending crap. You in particular continually harp on anything that remotely suggests a recognition of difference. Your colossal ignorance of the experiences of minorities is simply staggering. Demanding children seems to be your refrain. Sorry to wake you up to this fact bud, but life is a continual negotiation within ever changing circumstances. You behave like the government, taxes, resources, traditions, the constitution, and all the laws are yours.

But you seem to forget that you're a part of just another special interest group like all the rest. You have to negotiate just like all the others. The sooner you and the ignorant like you recognize that, and ditch the arrogant delusion you are the epitome of citizen and Canadian, the sooner we all can get on with the process of negotiating how we run the country, and the less time we have to spend listening to you bitch about how everyone else doesn't want what you want, and should stop behaving like demanding children.

Recognizing and living with diverse interests is par for the course, particularly in Canada. Canada is far from perfect in this regard, but name me a country with a comparable level of diversity that has done better. It sure as hell isn't the US. Try cruising their inner cities, or their poorest rural areas. The only thing that comes close to the horrors in those areas are some of our First Nations reserves, and even they don't approach the levels of violence you'll find in the US.

If separation occurs, it will occur because of petty bigotry. I'm sure Rafe, Grumpy, et al. will just love wallowing in their schadenfreude as they spend their time telling everyone "I told you so." But the failure will be due to sickening aura of arrogance and superiority so many anglo Canadians have, because they seem to think that they have a right to a paternal attitude, and that everything from resources to taxes is something they deign to give to everyone else who a mere childish special interest.

Spoiled children... I wish you dumb asses would stop projecting your own behavior on everyone else.

Thanks James Burns.

I've been trying to point out the inherent racism and bigotry in western Canada for some time. It won't make you any friends but the truth often does that.

I'd also like to weigh in that the current and upcoming native treaty settlements the news media are going to be 'celebrating' are no negation of this principle.

Look very carefully at the potential (I’d prefer eventual) disposition of new fee simple lands a half-dozen years down the road for the real beneficiaries of this shell game. And look equally closely at the private interest 'partners' who are literally popping up to take advantage of the provincial largesse for their new-found ‘friends’ among our First Nations brothers and sisters.

And look for lots of carefully worded press releases that don’t come from the band councils themselves.

The transfer of public assets to private pockets that began with BCRail is now continuing apace on several fronts:

'pecuniary' INDEED!

Of course Rene Levesque would probably point out that all of the members of the Quebec Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court Court of Canada, whether francophone or not, would have been appointed by the Federal Government.

So James Burns aka "Captain Canada"

(i) What classes do you teach, tenured yet?

(ii) Are you up for a Senate seat ?

(iii) What area EAST of Portage and Main do you come from ?

(iv) When's your " Escape from JonesTown" due out ? Cash kool-aid bar at Premiere ?

You seem to represent the classic la- de -da cluelessness that is often inherent in these discussions, with the subsequent relativism arguments of " what is equality ? " and navel gaze.

Your type would legalize cannabilism as the last -gasp straw of appeasement, then what? Take yer' ideas on tour and go to the Middle East et al and wow them over THERE. At least you will get out more often from the wannabee Ivory Tower you apparently seek to pontificate from. Wear a hard hat when you do.

PS Merci Bow - Coop

I can understand you being upset maestro - that's your job description isn't it?

Protect your turf if you like. My view is that no one else wants it.

I thought you'd started a long road trip by the way.

If separation occurs, it will occur because of petty bigotry.

Quite right. Pride will be number one with this. But not just the pride that turns the Ezra Levants into the numbnutted, ignorant, arrogant blowhards of the world... but as well, the pride of Quebec. And beyond this pride, is it good for either Canada or Quebec to separate? I think not.

While Quebec believes, for example, that they will have a greater voice on the world stage, the reality is that the pie will shrink dramatically and their voice will become smaller... but more distinct.

The next question is how Quebec will treat their FN, anglophones and immigrants. If they separate, there will most certainly be an exodus of people leaving this province. Bigotry has most certainly reared its head in the separatist parties before.

And then there's the money question. Quebec has 117 billion worth of provincial debt. Canada's net consolidated debt (Fed & Provinces combined) is well over 800 billion. If Quebec was to take its share of this debt by population percentages and establish its own currency, Quebec would have a hard time managing the books. Considering a potential exodus of people from a potential flood of internal bigotry combined with this kind of debtload and a province that has no experience running itself as a real nation... the question that should be asked is "why on earth would they leave stability for what could be a highly unstable outcome?" It sure won't come down to logic. It will be pride.

And so the separatists look for more motions to garner them strength in the courts to separate, and the western separatist Harper is only to willing to oblige. Its mind blowing, actually, to consider that currently, separatists have federal power in the commons. It is also equally mindblowing in noting how they got there, or that this nation of nations never gave majority consent for them to do so... but meanwhile, dangerous motions are passed and most MP's, the lawmakers of this country, are to dumb to realize the legal implications of such motions. I for one will breathe alot easier when our Republican U.S. sellout western separatist is gone from the PMO.

The solution is simple and Mr. Harper actually grasps this. Decentralization and provincial rights. I know the term sounds aweful, but we should be 12 nations within a nation. The Americans have it figured out.

We have no excuse. Americans (Republicans and Democrats are united by their National Pride). They have elements of the far religious right (the South), far right in every aspect (Texas), moderates (Midwest), progressive conservatives (North East USA & Southern California) and the far, far left - Boston, Chicago, Wisconson and Northern California.

I've travelled extensively in the USA and each region is so unique it is unbelievable. They all speak english, but their accents, dialects, values and principles differ completely.

What they have is 50 states, within one united state. Where regional, spiritual and political differences can co-exist. Each state makes its own decisions re. gay marriage, education, capital punishment, taxes and environmental compliance.

The only thing the federal government is responsible for is foreign policy, basic civil rights and administering the few national programs that exist including Medicaid.

In Canada, the Federal government should limit its responsibility to foreign affairs, civil rights and a select few national programs. We should allow our different cultures to flourish - where being French Canadian, an oil-worker, an environmentalist (whatever) is all Canadian.

Instead, we have had the Liberal party who believe is centralization, control of all provinces, limited involvement in foreign affairs and national regulations. This does not work when you have umemployed fisherman in the maritimes, french speaking canadians, western canadians and ontario (who don't appreciate the values of Canadians outside their own province).

Most Quebecers want to be affiliated with Canada and be Canadian. They don't want to be controlled by Ontario.

Gordon Campbell and Carole James know BCs needs and interests better than Harper or Dion. Decentralization is the key to keeping us one country.

writes Cappy.

They do? Like in Texas and Iraq and in terms of their national debt? Are you trying for maesto's title as the biggest joke on Tyee?

He'll be upset.

In terms of electing your political buddies as dogcatcher, sherriff, JP and mayor along with a whole lot more partisan and unqualified people who have powerful friends.
Are those the kind of things the yanks can teach us?

I know you're in gordo's pocket and he likes to reward his friends but that was just ridiculous.

Heeeyyyy ACLi :

Are you Captain's Canada's " ROBIN " ?

Always sticking your nose into things eh ALCi ? Howzabout you do a 180 degree instead so we can kick yer troll ass out of here AFTER we kick yer ass in the debating ledger column.

Mssr "James" was addressing " MOI"...not "THOU" ...unless thou art their " IGOR" . We need HIS permission IN WRITING if you wish to represent him...(not that it has ever stopped you in the past).

Time to wind up the grammophone ALCi, and break your own " broken record " .

Listen Alci - you never cease to amaze me how often you miss the point. I am not saying that the Americans (or Harper for that matter) are the answer to global peace and global warming.

I am merely saying that we could learn a few lessons from the yanks - in avoiding pit-falls and success paths. The one thing you can't fault them for is their national unity. Despite a very diverse political and cultural landscape, Americans are the proudest citizens in the world.

We can learn a lot from them when it comes to national unity. I believe that decentralization in the key.

If you want to post - go ahead - but lets leave Iraq, the debt and other unrelated topics to this discussion for another day....

More incomprehensible blather from the biggesr idiot on Tyee .
The Yanks have it figured out ?
Fifty individual States that can have their laws over ridden by the Feds . Yea, that has worked ,really, well in the past .
How about the Civil War ?
Suppose they had it figured out then too,hunh ?
Phuck do us all a favour and nove there ya' nit wit .
Personally I am sick to death of 'ya .

You missed the part about the 8.6 trillion dollar debt I guess; and those states you're so fond of - check out exactly how many American citizens are currently under lock and key in those state prisons. If you're going to talk intelligently about the USA, Cappy, you need to spend some time actually getting down and dirty in some of those wonderful states like Louisiana where they are trying to re-build under the jurisdiction of incompetent Federal bodies staffed with political hacks and friends. Folk who see disasters like Katrina as a real estate opportunity.

Push away from the gaming tables and wake up - I'm gonna nominate you for Ron's ‘clueless’ title soon.

I’ll let you know if you ever have a valid point about anything. Please, hold your breath.

You think an accumulated debt during Bush's time as POTUS that's equal to the total debt of all the other presidents in US history combined is irrelevant?

Say no more Cappy, I Couldn’t have demonstrated your foolishness any more comprehensively if I tried. Thanks for that.

Then just don't elect Dion or reelect Harper next time around.

Rafe would be far better off worrying about tighter integration of Canada with the US. The Quebec story will go on forever and could very well outlast the accelerating US/Canada integration! And don't blame Quebecois once again for that, but Canadians for letting it happen to them. Who is next to sell out now?

Oh...

I see the Tyee Troll only has one foot under the bridge, thus is it still safe to cross ?

Probably.
( Just say " Boo" ) .

And maestro, while you're at it, could you fix that bridge you're always talking about. Should increase your land's value for when you get it out of the ALR. Maybe you could apply for consideration as a member of a local First Nations group - seems to work when you have friends who're trying to change their image in the government.

For once Cappy and I agree on something. Though I suspect my version of decentralization and his would differ.

One thing that Cappy does not grasp is that the Canadian federation is more decentralized than the US, so the US is a piss poor model. To reconstruct the federation we nered a grass-roots, bottom up discussion and constitutional congress made up of delegates of all the people to create the sort of federation we really need. Elite involvement should not be allowed, as they had their chance and gave us the present mess. The goal should be to empower the ordinary person in their communities and the higher levels of government should only deal with those areas that we choose to grant them. Study the Swiss system of government as a start. They are the nearest "really existing federation" that approximates true federalism.

anarcho,
When you're dealing with Cappy, the idea of 'study' is a foreign country to him.

I'd like to get rid of provincial governments altogether and adopt something not all that different from the Swiss canton system. I don't think that's the kind of devolution cappy and Stevo are thinking about though.

Capitalism writes.
I guess that's why the U.S. needs massive Federal Departments such as
Agriculture, Commerce, Defense, Education, Energy, Health, Homeland Security, Housing and Urban Development, Justice, Labor, Interior, Treasury, Transportation, and Veterans Affairs, all headed by cabinet secretaries. These departments are responsible for enforcing federal law, and are assisted by hundreds of independent agencies, boards, corporations and commissions authorized by Congress. The US constitution requires judges to overule any state law that conflicts with federal legislation. And rather than "a few" national programs, there are 388 listed on the US govt website.
So it appears, Capitalism, that the feds aren't really out of the picture below the line either.

This country is not going to split up. Rafe is operating two generations behind reality. Modern thinking young Quebecois know that by remaining part of Canada, their futures as French Canadians and Canadians is bright and bountiful. Rafe should take a trip to Quebec and see it on the ground. The average age of a separatist is close to his. Dion is going to eat into the Bloc vote as well as the NDP and draw the support of the majority of Canada's youth who will at last be inspired to vote in large numbers. Across this country young educated and informed people realize that Canada is the country of the future - once we dump the 19th century neo-con militaristic HarBush Conservatives. Robert Stanfield (the best PM we never had) must be rolling in his grave and putting the "evil eye" on HarBush.

straightshooter
I'd love to think you're correct about Quebec....but I doubt you are. For most of the young people I know in Quebec, Canada is irrelevant, and has been for at least 20 years.
Sorry!

maestro, what are you some sort of automated cliche dispenser? The first response you come up with is a series of lame stereotypes in an attempt to utterly incorrectly pidgenhole me. I don't think I could ask for a better demonstration of exactly the problems inherent in your thinking. It's like you have a little set of oversimplified preconceptions for the world and you apply them willy nilly without the slightest hint of irony.

I brought up the fact that bigotry based on ignorance was the problem of many in English Canada, and you do your darndest to reinforce that perception.

brain wrote:

Absolutely, anyone who fetishizes an ethnic identity to an extreme will almost certainly have disdain for other identities out there. But you're overestimating how insular Quebec is. What may have been true in the '50s and '60s certainly isn't today. Quebec is vastly more cosmopolitan than it was even 10 years ago, and in terms of progressive politics, it is lightyears ahead of the rest of Canada.

I notice, when hypotheticals about Quebec separation start getting trotted out in English Canada, all the focus is on how much Quebec will suffer, how much less Quebec will have, how much Quebec will have to give up if they leave. Why is that?

All of Canada will suffer without Quebec, as will Quebec. English Canada would suddenly be bereft of an exceptionally rich and diverse cultural contributor, to say nothing of the economic impacts.

Canadian identity, since Trudeau, has been about diversity. Those who bitch the loudest about that always seem to be those with the most ethnic power to lose, because it was their identity that was top dog before Quebec started throwing its weight around, and before Trudeau made multiculturalism offical policy. The trauma of having to share power with those who don't look, talk, or walk like them must be a real bitch of a let down.

If Quebec chooses to "go" it is their decision no matter how the ROC feels about it. BUT if a 'divorce' happens they have to remember - if Canada is divisable then so is Quebec. Rupert's Land was ceded only to make the map of Canada look pretty.

I like that idea, and no, I am sure the Harpocrit does not have that in mind. He would prefer 10 strong provincial govts., that would then engage in seeing who could sell themselves at the lowest price to the corporations. Oops, they already do that!

Nothing brings out the bigotry quicker in English Canada than two words, "Quebec" and "Indians". We need not be too smug visa vis the Gringos in this regard.

straightshooter,

your observations of Quebecois nationalists youth is incorrect.

during the 'referendum' there were many young officers from 'La Belle Provence' whom were attending at Kingston Military College. As the referendum was reaching its conclusion (24 hours ahead of the vote) a confidential memo came into the hands of the Commandant of the Academy. It was from a member of the National Assembly whom was to become the new Quebec defence minister, he was asking for volunteers to become the new officer corps of the soon to be created Quebec military establishment. There were some whom had their bags packed that morning of the vote. (I was not privvy to the numbers but was informed that they were present)

These young men were not disciplined in any way that I was aware of, but they would be just ahead of the 20-somethings that you write about.

There is a sizable cohort within the 'youth' of Quebec that still want their own control and resent the 'dictates' of Canada's Parliament and the Supreme Court of Canada. Many even dislike the PM's from Quebec, which is why the BQ finds such fertile ground for garnering such popular support.

I think that your appraisal is a fantasy, and that the BQ will hold more than 50% of the MP's seats from Quebec for the forseeable future.

The troll has risen:
Hail to the Troll.

To the TYEE Troll:

If the shoe fits wear it.., funny how when one's name is NOT mentioned you are still magnetized to the podium.

Still bringing up "old" dirt eh...no pun intended, not that you'd get it anyway.

HMMM.

James Burns;

Who or What is James Burns ???
Seems to be part of some synchronized TYEE alliance with the TYEE Troll.

James Burns is a waste of time.

James Burns is THE bigot. Anyone who disagree with James Burns is a bigot....anyone who is tired of the status quo is a bigot. James Burns sans Valium tends to take a comment and extrapolate it out of context and rant and rant and rant when given their 15 minutes of fame.

Oh yeah, the LAST Lieberal Gov't got turfed due to the Prime Minister cut someone off in traffic, nothing to do with patronage and Province specific funding. 2/3 of Canada cannot provide a LIEberal leader for the last 4 out of 5 LIEberal leaders. Tokenism within tokenism.

James Burns seems to be some sort of status-quo auto - rant APOLOGIST who also can't read.

Typical of what has been said before and what will likely be stated again. No sense continuing any further with a real bigot and a moron. They already hang themselves with the first few words and the rest is simply more rope for next time.

Next time, when you are finished getting lattered up , THEN put it on spin cycle, not before.

Ah what a truly bizzaro world we have entered with our maestro of nothing. Someone who opposes racism is called a bigot. Oh, look - there goes Malcome X, leader of the KKK, the noted anti-semite Eli Weisel and the Bush-supporter Noam Chomsky!

Alci said:

I think of it more like a mixture of Real Estate gentrification and ethnic cleansing. Guys like Cappy and Maestro should move there and hang out at blogs like little green footballs, then they could be the radical lefties!

Ahhh Rkewen

Oui missed ya lad !!!

(....Next time don't duck).

Being a computer techie ,( of which you once info- blessed us with your mini resume') , what IS the program you Lefties use , in obvious "communal sharing mode" , to alert each other and circle the wagons ?

Is it Leftie SoapBox Version 18_ _ ?

Did Bill Gates lend it to you ?

Did Karl Marx autograph it?...then put it on E Bay ? Use the funds to elect Corky and circle THOSE wagons !

" Peace" Commie-rade...

No Maestro, I just get a newsletter once a week from the Tyee, it's kinda like a mailing list. Obviously you don't need such a thing as you live here 24/7 spouting nonsense the whole time.

I'd bet I could do a brisk business with software designed to filter you and Cappy from the threads here though. Except of course when life gets grim and we need a laugh. Regarding your idiocy, James Burns kinda nailed it with:

Mr. Burns also hit the truth close to the bone with:

And that's why I dropped by this article and this thread, because I believe Canada is important and Quebec is part of what makes Canada different from the glorified prison camp to our south.

If you recognize Quebec's national/soceital distinctiveness, that becomes a platform that separatists can use. {for example, it has just become a little harder for Quebec to accept that its share of Senate seats should be reduced for the sake of greater western representation--after all it is a nation. And if we had a policy or consititutional provision like s.106A of the Meech Lake Accord--guaranteeing opting out with compensation from shared cost programs for policies that meet "national objectives"--which nation??!!} And the next time a French President visits Canada, she will now have oficial licence to address the Quebec "nation".

Conversely,if you fail to recognize Quebec's distinctiveness, that becomes a platform that separatists can use as well. Personally, I thought that we should have grabbed the Meech compromise while it was on the table. Eveything that has come down the chute since has been worse. At least "distinct society" had the virtue of avoiding the ambiguous word "nation".

Mark Crawford:
We need a Senate?

Wasn't that another one of pee wee's Reform promises? Haven't heard much about that since he's been cozying up to Jean Charest.

Québec has already opted out of EI, Pension, & Child care funding; It runs it's own separate income tax system - unlike the rest of the provinces who piggy back on Revenue Canada entirely. It sends its own delegates to many Francophonie chinwags - as to many UN functions.

All of this w/out the 'nation' sobriquet - which was simply a ruse for the Prime Minister's ambitions come election time.

It won't work. The Québec people know exactly what they're doing and the rest of the country is irrelevant in that respect. Whether or not some 'kind' of unitary nation survives the next 10 years is very doubtful and we might as well get used to it, sadly.

Québec, should it go it alone - from my experience there - will actually do a lot better than the rest of Canada will. For a lot of reasons too complex to explain here.

Nothing ambiguous about it though.

Spewin Rkwewen;

Actually comrade, Mssr. Burns sort of coalesced the ad nauseum arguments(???) by the ad infinitum apologists.

Additionally there is this knee-jerk programming by the TYEE pseudo intellecti that jumps all over a discussion with the same stereotypical debate modus operandi they somehow accuse OTHERS of engaging in.

The Leftie programming becomes Leftie parody. Yawn .

BTW..Did I ACTUALLY say Quebec should separate and good riddance??? ..if so point it out. This topic of Quebec actually had a fascinating TYEE discussion several weeks back where many commentators were delving into the genesis where equality was the "starting point" sans even the remotest hint of ethnicity, nor "which founding nation", etc. were explored, not even really debated.

"Village", as an example, had a unique contributory style....as did many others . Unfortunately, our TYEE Dean /Allah of "Leftie" view aka His herr/Highness G'Ster(who also speaks for you Comrade RKewen.... correct??)started getting into a pissing match with "W", yet G' ster basically humiliating himself with token stereotype assumptions.

Unfortunately, Not the first time nor likley the last. The Left often never looks in the mirror,probably senses an ugly sight the same one the rest of us often see petty clueless hypocrites .

My point was much like anything in politics, issues get wedged by politicians and they often try to create sides. That's NOT good.

Are we ALSO forgetting the Quebec Language Police...signs in French as #1 or ELSE...in an officially Bilingual and Multi -Cultural country?
Good 4 Goose vs Gander?

However, those that allow this to happen , if not simply buy into it in self - serving fashion,are equally as guilty via the various "30 pieces of silver" taken. THUS: Be careful who you let speak for you or represent you.

BTW My children have taken French Immersion for years...by choice...have "Carnaval" ever year,...so that's a bigot...???

The biggest BIGOTS have often been in the pseudo intellecti, "intoler -rant" Leftie camp, that's my REAL WORLD experience. Most of the Leftie Logic should be on Comedy Channel, but no re-runs....once is enough ,...and very boring next time around.

Otherwise ,go waste someone else's time, the theatre is crowded, you all can go to a comrades flat, sit on each other's laps, and yell "fire" in your version of "free speech" to your own hearts' content.

I should light the furnace but first I should make a comment:
Scoll^
Quebec "Separating" is about as likely as Vancouver Island drifting off to join Japan (though it makes total sense to me, geological evidence shows we are nudging ever closer to the "Western" provinces), so the main problem must be "Balkanization". What exactly is wrong with an alliance such as the European Union or for that matter the poorly named United States of America in terms of working efficiency? What I see is that these conglomerations are still regarded from outside as a unit. Naturally the Brits don't accept the Italians and the Californian thinks the New Yorker is crazy (and vice versa).

I do not worry if our PM is comfortable in french or english. If someone can translate honestly and I agree with the proposal he or she emits just now I won't be joining the crowds at the Barricades just yet

anarcho:

And part of our problem stems from an electoral system which favors one set of groups over others. Let's re-build with a triple-E senate and some form of a proportional voting scheme.

Cooperation is much more likely when all parties perceive themselves to be "equal" partners.

maestro wrote:

Now you see at least the above quote has some thought to it beyond the majority of your comment, which is largely a block of poorly regurgitated Limbaugh-isms about lefties. But then creativity has never a specialty of your crowd.

Equality is impossible "sans even the remotest hint of ethnicity". To even suggest it is presupposes the abstraction "equality" is more real than the actual details of people's every day lives. What you are in fact doing, when you make an assertion like that, is assuming that your notion of identity and equality, your experience of it, and what you consider to be necessary for it, applies to everyone. That is simply incorrect.

Perceiving "equality" that way ignores the life circumstances of others who don't share your background, your language, your shade of skin.

Would someone be less of a racist if he considered black people inferior, but enjoyed listening to rap or loved watching a black dominated sport like basketball?

grub,

this attitude is at the heart of the PQ separatist//appeasement policy.

Ontario and Quebec see themselves as the two equal parts of the 'nation' of the canada.

This is not the attitude of the 'founding nations' concept (which totally ignores the contributions and sacrifices of the Iroquois Confederation).

Whereas the western provinces, including us here on the left coast see 10 'equal' partners (13 if you count the 'territories').

unless these two different views of the country or nation known as Canada can be reconciled, then end of the Confederation is inevitable.

I agree with Rafe, better to prepare what our response will be on the day after separation, long before we have to really face it.

More than this I believe that organizing now will deflect the pain and put those whom are prepared 'in the drivers seat' of controlling the situation when (not if) the separation comes.

G West:

not 'opted out' of EI, Pension or Child Care funding as these are permitted under the terms of the Original Confederation in 1867!

Provinces are permitted to run their own banking systems and police, we did that here in BC until the 1950's for the Police functions and tried a few times in the banking, but Central Canada (or is that Upper Canada?) used its financial control and clout to KO any western attempts at banking (tried in Sask and Alberta also I think in Manitoba). In all cases they were tubed by inability to get access to the Venture Capital from Ontario or Maritime sources.

It is the various provinces own lethargy and willingness to be 'taken to the cleaners' by Rev Canada and the RCMP!

murdock
They certainly HAVE opted out. Whatever the constitutional provision is irrelevant.

Currently, Quebec is running the most progressive government in North America - despite Jean Charest's best efforts to back off. Like the occasional conservative government in Sweden, he realizes the limitations expectations and experience impose on his freedom to act.

murdock:

Would you enlighten us please, on who exactly will prepare "our response"? Who will deliver it, and what process will be involved to ensure that it is valid, and truly "ours"?

To Maestro , James Burns and RAFE...

Actually Maestro , James Burns makes some very important points.., on the
MINDSET .. '' mindscapes '' really.., that is at times a residual of all of our collective dialogues..,

indeed , an aggregate like FORUM of Citizens such as we are .. who , eventually create a way of seeing things .. a thought CULTURE.., for lack of a better word.. , much like when we speak of a sense of
''place'' , '' sense of belonging'', and '' sense of identity'' eventually creating a larger concept and idea of COMMUNITY .. and eventually NATION itself..

I've spent a good many of years pondering the very question of.. ( if one had to attempt to describe the MIND OF CANADA.., ) how would one go about achieving this feat! ? ...,

What I like about James Burns comments - as it related to how we , the people of Canada , do clearly need to realise the integral part , that we play.., in creating the whole..,

( indeed.., the idea that surely a country is larger then the sum of it's parts .., applies , in this context .. ( and I sense that was one of the important point James Burns was trying to get across.., )

As far as his comments on the whole idea of BIGOTRY and BIGOTS .., * * The genesis of that word is found and at times lost .. in a MONSIEUR BIGOT.., of LA NOUVELLE FRANCE.., if my memory serves me well , who exhibited certain tendencies.. that became so much in evidence .. as to have that tendency be identified .. with this name * ONE WAY TO BECOME HEARD OF ,I SUPPOSE .. , not a way I'd like to be remembered . .,

I can't recall his actual fetish or whatever it was that got him all riled up .. but I seem to recall that this word and it's meanings stems from this MAN'S NAME.. and his attitude in life *

I think IGNORANCE is the nutrient that permits the conditions and the kind of soil fertiliser that eventually brings about a harvest of thinking ,to eventually create the kind of attitude that one eventually adopts..,which in turn stands out in the environment that would instead rather see.., gentleman debate the issues of the day .., yes , but with a golden rule of
RESPECT ,

being one OF THE GOLDEN RULES.. of the ''ROAD'' OF IDEAS , SO TO SPEAK.. in effect .. so that ''drivers'' such as all intelligentsia of any culture or nation knows themselves to be..., becomes the fuel and the very spirit and soul that holds it all together.. ( THE NATION ).. BY ANY OTHER WORD .

(ARTIST , bless their souls , are also very important contributors to this NATION DIALOGUE.. and overall go further then any INTELLECTUAL could ever dream of going.. as to sensing the future .. sensing the human condition and the ROAD AHEAD.., WE COULD ALL LEARN from these very CREATIVE EXPLORERS and eventualy .. DISCOVERERS.. of THE CREATIVE MIND...* )

(continued.. )

To Maestro , James Burns and RAFE...

Actually Maestro , James Burns makes some very important points.., on the
MINDSET .. '' mindscapes '' really.., that's at work here that is at times a residual of all of our collective dialogues.., and thinking in this country .. which invariable creates a mood.. much like the ebb and flow of the tides.., we can reverse the thinking that exist at any one moment in our history *...

indeed , an aggregate like FORUM of Citizens such as we are .. who , eventually create a way of seeing things .. a thought CULTURE.., for lack of a better word.. , much like when we speak of a sense of
''place'' , '' sense of belonging'', and '' sense of identity'' eventually creating a larger concept and idea of COMMUNITY .. and eventually NATION itself..

I've spent a good many of years pondering the very question of.. ( if one had to attempt to describe the MIND OF CANADA.., ) how would one go about achieving this feat! ? ...,

What I like about James Burns comments - as it related to how we , the people of Canada , do clearly need to realise the integral part , that we play.., in creating the whole..,

( indeed.., the idea that surely a country is larger then the sum of it's parts .., applies , in this context .. ( and I sense that was one of the important point James Burns was trying to get across.., )

As far as his comments on the whole idea of BIGOTRY and BIGOTS .., * * The genesis of that word is found and at times lost .. in a MONSIEUR BIGOT.., of LA NOUVELLE FRANCE.., if my memory serves me well , who exhibited certain tendencies.. that became so much in evidence .. as to have that tendency be identified .. with this name * ONE WAY TO BECOME HEARD OF ,I SUPPOSE .. , not a way I'd like to be remembered . .,

I can't recall his actual fetish or whatever it was that got him all riled up .. but I seem to recall that this word and it's meanings stems from this MAN'S NAME.. and his attitude in life *

I think IGNORANCE is the nutrient that permits the conditions and the kind of soil fertiliser that eventually brings about a harvest of thinking ,to eventually create the kind of attitude that one eventually adopts..,which in turn stands out in the environment that would instead rather see.., gentleman debate the issues of the day .., yes , but with a golden rule of
RESPECT ,

being one OF THE GOLDEN RULES.. of the ''ROAD'' OF IDEAS , SO TO SPEAK.. in effect .. so that ''drivers'' such as all intelligentsia of any culture or nation knows themselves to be..., becomes the fuel and the very spirit and soul that holds it all together.. ( THE NATION ).. BY ANY OTHER WORD .

(ARTIST , bless their souls , are also very important contributors to this NATION DIALOGUE.. and overall go further then any INTELLECTUAL could ever dream of going.. as to sensing the future .. sensing the human condition and the ROAD AHEAD.., WE COULD ALL LEARN from these very CREATIVE EXPLORERS and eventualy .. DISCOVERERS.. of THE CREATIVE MIND...* )

(continued.. )

OOPS .. just realised that this initial post was duplicated... SORRY ABOUT THAT.

Village,

( continuing with my thought now ).

Being mindful of what the other person has to say, as I was writting earlier ,. and then thinking about the arguments that were advanced.. and then , and only then making a decision and an eventual reply that will help all of us really grow.., for that's what COMMUNICATIONS is all about..*..isn't it !

LEARNING AND GROWING.. not only as a person .. but as a community .. and eventually as a Nation itself..*..
'' a tribe ''.., is what's developing here.. of the PEOPLE'S WHO LIVE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD called CANADA*..

and with a 21st Century kind of human settlement under construction AT THAT..

, We ( OUI,yes WE )in CANADA have our work cut out for us..,indeed , and we need to roll out our sleeves and do a full INVENTORY of our gains attained so far.. as a nation who has , without modern day equivalent of bloodshed of great proportions , managed to arrive whole and in pretty good shape .. (actually the FIRST NATIONS would correct me on this score..,for as descendants of EUROPEAN stock.. as I am., there was at the very begining of our journey and arrival to these lands.. considerable bloodshed.. and worst was the obvious genocidal attempts through biological warfare.. which almost completely decimated the original settlers of these lands.. ) and that fact needs to be recognised and addressed.. ), there are documents now that exist that point to that horrible conclusion *..,

but, when I go about considering how other nations have fared..,with all of their histories.., we nevertheless need a full inventory of WHAT WE DID THAT WAS A STEP FORWARD.. as to HUMAN SETTLEMENT ISSUES and SOLUTIONS to gradually improve the human condition for all concerned..*..

( continued ....)

COMPROMISE and negotiated settlements are the way to go.., and this we have attempted, time and time again .. in our EXPERIMENT and this approach is more and more then ever needed... ie: to continue on that path to reconciliation and in fact compensation , and if we were to seriously consider how other EXPERIMENTS in the world have fared.., it can be said that we are'nt doing too badly.. , we need but to get a handle on the NARRATIVE that would celebrate our successes rather then our failure.. IN MY BOOKS.., to use a famous quote.. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION*..

I can just see it.., centuries hence .. when they speak of the PEOPLE's who settled CANADA .. in the 21st Century ..

You know ,those who inhabited the Northern Lands of North America..
''how did they ever manage and build such a system of governance .. such a culture of compromise.., such a .. ', gentler , civil society * '' these are the attributes that we need to celebrate ,that we need to fully recognise as our national intelligence and heart..*., our way , as a collective..or ''TRIBE ''if you will, of dealing with the world and each other*.. I's say that's something to be proud of..,

( continued ...) ..

They will ask..,as I was saying..''how did they ever manage and build such a system of governance .. such a culture of compromise.., such a .. ', gentler , civil society * ''

,and you know who will be in the best situation to answer that very question..?

It will be our children. CANADA'S CHILDREN.. , if we could but learn to ensure that they fully grasp the journey of this experiment.. THE NARRATIVE ,if you will, YOU KNOW MY INCLINATION.. THE STORIES that made us and explained away how we got from.. A to B..( and in our case C ).. and Z.

Playing with words and realising that it's the glass that's half filled that fascinates me.., thinking that we need to focus on that REALITY.. and not the what if's..

James Burns .. : you bring up the other important observation surrounding the comments that have arisen from the discovery that Stéphane Dion .. had dual Citizenship..., and I thought your reminding us all, that indeed, for a very long time.. THE BRITISH held quite comfortably that duality..,was a point well taken *.. and I'd wish that the focus of your intervention had been further explored in that light *...

( continued ... )

COMPROMISE and negotiated settlements are the way to go.., and this we have attempted.. in our EXPERIMENT and need to continue on that path to reconciliation and in fact compensation , and if we were to seriously consider how other EXPERIMENTS in the world have fared.., it can be said that we are'nt doing too badly..

I can just see it.., centuries hence .. when they speak of the PEOPLE's who settled CANADA .. in the 21st Century ..

You know ,those who inhabited the Northern Lands of North America..
''how did they ever manage and build such a system of governance .. such a culture of compromise.., such a ..
', gentler , civil society * ''

They will ask..,and you know who will be in the best situation to answer that very question.. it will be our children. CANADA'S CHILDREN.. , if we could but learn to ensure that they fully grasp the journey of this experiment.. THE NARRATIVE , YOU KNOW MY INCLINATION.. THE STORIES that made us and explained away how we got from.. A to B..( and in our case C ).. and Z.

Playing with words and realising that it's the glass that's half filled that fascinates me.., thinking that we need to focus on that REALITY.. and not the what if's..

James Burns .. : you bring up the other important observation surrounding the comments that have arisen from the discovery that Stéphane Dion .. had dual Citizenship..., and I thought your reminding us all, that indeed, for a very long time.. THE BRITISH held quite comfortably that duality..,was a point well taken *.. and I'd wish that the focus of your intervention had been further explored in that light *...

( continued ... )

AS YOU CAN SEE.., MY EDITING ISN'T WHAT IT OUTA BE..

( please bare with me as I try to straighten out my posting methodology )..

Village,

murdock:

What they "see" or don't "see" can be made more explicit if we established (more like reworked) our second chamber, the Senate, with equal representation from each of the founding entities (provinces). With, let's say, 10 senators from each province, then there's only one way to "see" it. EQUAL!

once again.. ,

James Burns .. : you bring up the other important observation surrounding the comments that have arisen from the discovery that Stéphane Dion .. had dual Citizenship..., and I thought your reminding us all, that indeed, for a very long time.. THE BRITISH held quite comfortably that duality..,was a point well taken *.. and I'd wish that the focus of your intervention had been further explored in that light *... and if my research and memory serves me well.. in this Province ( British Columbia).., IT goes even further then that.., for indeed..

THEY.. ( THE ENGLISH ).. DID NOT EVEN HAVE TO TAKE ON THE CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP .. their British Citizenship was all they needed and they were given all the privileges that a CANADIAN CITIZEN had.. - again if my memory serves me well - .., they could enjoy all the rights of a CANADIAN without ever having even to become CANADIAN*.... ( perhaps might explain away the '' entitlement '' attitudes that somehow made it's way to the following generations that took.. on the ENGLISH CANADIAN mantle..* )

Let's look at Rafe Mair's interest and contributions to the HOUSE OF CANADA .. dynamic.., let's ask ourselves .., as he enjoys .. visiting LONDON .. , and perhaps the British Isles.., (* I seem to recall that he not only visits over there.., but enjoys .. the culture .., enjoys the ,, people.., as he should.. ) ..

However.. what drives an author such as he to continuously harp on the glass being half empty .. rather then focus on the very same glass.. that is half full*.. , perhaps due to a misconception he has of his country ?, common Rafe , you can one day not only get the Narrative right.. but you just might in OLD AGE.., go dig deep in the archives of the CANADA OF OLD.., ( of course , you will need to be able to fully grasp .. La langue de Molière.. , and perhaps you can and do.. that would be a bonus *)

LE CANADIEN *.. rafe.., is the lynchpin and the guarantee that CANADA will not only not break-up .. but will go on and find a way...in a transformative vision.. collectively speaking.., to inspire all those that followed the dream.. of a CANADA , beyond the boundaries and the territories already in place.., they , of all of our ancestors.., managed to plant the seeds of CANADA.., way beyond even our present borders of the day.*.. YOU AS A STORY TELLER HAS TO GET THAT NARRATIVE DOWN.. Rafe.., for indeed your abilities as a communicator is without question and simply needs to be harnessed with the kind of depth .. and narrative that will tell the whole story.., nothing but the truth and the whole truth.. will serve this country RAFE.., and me thinks you owe it to yourself to go even further then you've gone to this day...

you know the old expression that says..follow the money.. well in this case RAFE.. follow the trail of LES CANADIENS.. and the NARRATIVE will come to light..

Village ,

It took me 30 years.. of research to reach this conclusion Rafe.. and I highly recommend that many others who live in CANADA undertake this kind of EXPLORATION and DISCOVERY... for there is in the spirit of LE,LA and LES CANADIENS.. ( not excluding all other groups that followed ) ..,for indeed they were, in succession, part of the original people's who carried the very seeds of our modern CANADA as we know her to be today..) and we are clearly without that NARRATIVE.. that would go quite a distance in setting our compass and points of reference.. so that we could all start from the same foundation.., from the same footing.. you know.. ONCE UPON A TIME..

IMAGINE OURSELVES AS SURVEYORS OF THE LAND.. OF THE VERY QUESTION OF THE TERRITORY THAT WE'VE COME TO CLAIM AS OURS.. in the nation sense of the word..

If you could grasp but what was implied in the song.. entitled UN CANADIEN ERRANT*.. me thinks that the beginning of the story/narrative .. would become unchallenged.. and would serve us well for our telling our stories.. to the CHILDREN OF CANADA..

( yes/oui! .the very children that have embraced the bilingual nature of our country..quite matter of fact and experience it.. as they come into contact with either IMMERSION SCHOOLING or for that matter.. FRANCOPHONE SCHOOL AUTHORITIES that flowed from the CONSTITUTIONAL rights that came with TRUDEAU'S VISION of CANADA. and the search for answers of our origins .. our true beginnings...itself..,now part of our legend... : as a people's who create an innovative paradigm of transformative vision.. in an R&D.. approach to what it might mean to be a NATION...

PEOPLE OF THE QUESTION MARK.. * ( for most of the time.. ) and yet..has served us well..in being a PEOPLE's who's pondered the existence of their nation.., time and time again..
REJUVENATING the very existential qualities of it's existence.., we are by definition .. a nation of thinkers.. as well as doers.., and this bodes well for a very uncertain 21st Century THAT IS JUST AHEAD ..

As to the First Nations role..,in the CANADA we've come to know and identify with.. it is certain that without their help at the very beginning of the journey.., as to the arrival of the EUROPEANS and all of what that contact implied.. ( and the consequence thereof.). it is certain that without their help..no settler could have sucessfully established a foothold in these lands.., for they were many.. and could have easily stopped these initial attempts at settlements..*.. , be it as it may, one thing is certain..they permited these initial forays in their respective lands.., ( it must be remembered that though we speak of FIRST NATIONS as one entity.. THEY WERE CLEARLY MANY AND DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT amongst themselves.. who settled thousands and thousands of years ago.. ) ..

We nevertheless..,, owe much to LE , LA and LES CANADIENS.. for spreading the very dream of a CANADA.. from Sea , to Sea to Sea.. as we've come to know it to this day...

they provided the kind of impetus which invariably created the knowledge and the intelligence.. as it was handed down to them by FIRST NATIONS tribes all over NORTH AMERICA it must be remembered..., tribes which did not necessarily get along with each other.. but for better or worst.. tribes that , entered into alliances with these COUREURS DE BOIS and VOYAGEURS..( and of course FUR TRADING COMPANIES as such.. who , though acting at times as mere .. servants to their FUR MASTERS... LES CANADIENS were in effect.. true..,
liberated souls..who'd created a different IDENTITY then the original one of their previous roots.., they.,much like what happened to the SOUTH .. as Americans did.., LE CANADIEN experienced.. ( without having to resort to as much violence ).. as they perpetuated a dream and a vision of a new land..*

THEY ,who adapted to not only the customs of the FIRST NATIONS they dealt with.. but most important of all.., WHO became attached to THE LAND*..

and this land they thought of as
CANADA*..

( continued ...)

Village :

I may explore this with you later, but perhaps re-read my post, and perhaps review archive-ally what we discussed way back.

J.B. types are THE quasi- bigots, using pseudo -intellectualism with long ranting party-line diatribes to mask their own knee-jerk party -line biases and prejudices. They tend to lurk like vultures , tend to [ box "quote" ] and strike. If we took away their so-called grammar skills what would be left is often simply ambush BS and quasi-thuggery.

They tend to whine when one defends /counter rebutts against their ambush, and they often leave with tails between their limping legs.

Canada, is the sum of its parts...and each and every one of these parts is continually evolving. Status -quo types with blinkers on are often apologists and appeasers. That is the root of many problems internationally and intra-nationally.

If I find that, objectively speaking, that IF our political leadership ....who is mandated to represent the best interest of all their constituents WITHOUT acting at the cost of any/all minorities in their constituent base ,..... YET is not following this simply aforementioned mandate, ....we are simply sowing the seeds for future inevitable problems, not the least of which is disenfranchisement.

If many TYEE commentators are any indication, though the jury is still out, Canada is based on "we are NOT American", and involves a country larger than the U.S. , and with a population only 10% that of the U.S.

Canadians are oftendeemed "tolerant"..implying fences make good neighbours... ie don't piss me off and I won't piss you off...vs lets have a beer etc. We are simply more spread out , diluted within a huge country, other than some key urban centers.

One wonders if we in Canada had the SAME issues as we have now ....YET with the same sized population as the U.S. , ie 300 Million Canadians, that would be a very interesting armchair discussion, discussing how those types of variables would interact.

grub (me):

PINCH ME! Am I dreaming? I've got Newsworld droning on in the background and I hear: (1) Harper proposing an elected Senate and (2) Dion responding, "yes but only if equal reps from each province."

Did I hear that correctly or was it just so muck Muzak?

If true, I love both those guys!

muck should read much

spreading the seeds of that thought..CANADA..

was one of the most important roleS played by these peoples , of this emerging sense of a PEOPLE also REALLY, who sadly.., were not wanted in the HISTORY BOOKS .. of neither the FRENCH , nor the ENGLISH.. nor for that matter..,
a branch thereof.., as was to become known LE CANADIEN who inhabited the lands called QUÉBEC.. thus having LE QUÉBÉCOIS..name.. and people's who eventually clearly understood that the word CANADIEN was being appropriated by the EMPIRES of OLD.. PEOPLE's also , ( the QUÉBÉCOIS himself needing to erase that part of his very own roots and beginning.) ..who saw no advantage in perpetuating the stories and history of this group of people.. WHO PLAYED SUCH A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE.. IN OUR BEGINNING and theirs as far as le QUÉBECOIS goes.., and ours.. as far as the land called CANADA goes.., ( and even beyond.. as I take these trips down south to discover hints of their existence and endurance..,makes me even aware of their reach in this continent )

as what would be.., in their roles as gardeners planting seed.. except for the fact his/her their garden were vast territories., as far as the eyes can see and beyond .. and furthermore dreams of lands..way beyond most people's imaginations...,

Such was LE VOYAGEURS..,le COUREURS DE BOIS.., , ( I'm discovering .. )
such was LES CANADIENS.., a part of our history that we need to reclaim.. if we are ever to avoid.., what this article written by Rafe..., is all about.*..

THE NARRATIVE , LADIES AND GENTLEMAN..
needing to be told. ..
Village..

thanks for your patience , I needed to get this out there.. where people could examine .. and react to a story..* that I've gradually come across ..as I tried to fit all the pieces of the puzzle called CANADA that I was coming across.*

Sensing that it might provide a first step.. IN AN EXPLORATION AND EVENTUAL DISCOVERY of our IDENTITY as A NATION*.

Once again , thanks for your patience and attention..

Village ,

Grub:

If you heard right and I interpret this properly:...

The only Senate that would be useful and work would be on par with the U.S. model , whereby EACH Province would have the same number of Senators ie (2) . This is regardless of the number of Voters....hence PEI and Ontario or Quebec each have equal number of Senators and thus equal Senate representation.

The Senate could be and should be a counterbalance to the regions with disproportional populations and hence disproportional numbers of MP's

What was Dion saying by " equal reps ", as you noted , was he referring to (i) the U.S model ......or (ii) based on population - proportionality, which would give places like Ontario and Quebec the majority of Senators...and we are back to the same old status quo...which then implies Dion is playing his real hand MEETS true colours...a Quebec - centric Federal Liberal leader posing as a Nationalist.

There is NO evidence yet to suggest the Lieberals have broken the old mold.

Maestro , your statement below.. simply needs to be expanded upon..

''Canada, is the sum of its parts...and each and every one of these parts is continually evolving.''

CANADA IS THE SUM OF IT'S PART , YES.. AND MORE..

There is in the old adage that states.. that the sum of the parts is indeed larger then the whole.. because this points to a truism that most nation have discovered about themselves..

Especially those that have the thing we have such difficulty at times to describes... such as the SPIRIT of a community or group.. or sport team for instance.., that makes them larger then life itself at times..,

The '' soul '' of any group or organisation gives them strength that can never be explained away by the
ARITHMETIC of addition or for that matter logic ..., or whatever physical laws you wish to apply on their new found strength.. and to be found and not lost at precisely the moment of critical survival.. or at the very important moment of truth.. of whether a person will live or die.., for the lack of trying .

Say whether they will accept defeat in a HOCKEY GAME..or whether that team can rise above not only the expectations.. but can attain unexplained,., SOUL.. or
SPIRIT.., so to speak.. it is the stuff of nations ,of winners and SUCCESS itself..*

indeed.. a phenomena that ,for time eternal , has been demonstrated.., time after time.., win after win , ( challenge after challenge .., which are at times is overcome because the group , team , or NATION*
had what it takes ..,, that what it takes is the .. sum greater then the parts.. kind of thing..
that : something greater then the sum of it's parts.. KIND OF ENERGY and
POWER.., ( that is only found by those that can believe in themselves.. ) curiously enough..!

( continued ...)

and so.. to the next observation you make of .., ( ever evolving parts*.) ., yes, with the added dimension of not having equal beginnings nor,equal populations , nor equal challenges.., let alone not having equal GEOGRAPHY itself.

THEREFORE.., THE OBSERVATION THAT EACH PART IS CONTINUOUSLY EVOLVING IS A FAIR OBSERVATION BUT NEEDS TO BE EXPANDED UPON..*

thus , the very notion also of how so called '' equal '' parts.., as Murdock and others pine about.., which are faced with the reality of the difference itself.., as are all provinces in CANADA..*.. and that difference , la différence for others and the many other very distinct landscapes of CANADA.. needs to be factored in obviously. INCLUDING , that particular grandfathering that needs to be factored in also ., ( just like a family , and our parents.. and the children.. who though wanting the freedom of thinking everyone is equal.., quickly comes up with the reality of ..., the ELDERS.., and the EXPERIENCE that comes with having lived many years more then it's children..offspring's.. realy , if we are to be precise on this count..

and so.., WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSIONS ABOVE.?

EVERYTHING ! ... I WOULD SUBMIT..
We need to get a handle on the reality of our situation as a nation.. and then
develop a sense of respect for the ''elders '' of the PROVINCES.. that clearly have a wisdom to share.., we then can go about envisioning how we can improve on what we have..: BY FIRST OF ALL HAVING A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THAT INVENTORY *..

then.. of course.., let's get our stories straight.. so that the NARRATIVE OF CANADA actually meshes in as a whole.., between the PROVINCES. and TERRITORIES.., not the gaping holes that we experience now in the versions of the many canada's that is being encouraged across the land..*

from there we will quickly realise that our '' sense of place '' , '' our sense of belonging '' and '' our sense of IDENTITY ''itself.. will improve greatly..

We will develop that other dimension..and more importantly the spirit and soul..needed which would consequenlty greatly improve our ability to speak to each other..
indeed proving, once and for all that we are more then the sum of our parts..

Thanks for your observations.. ( and I await your reflections on my earlier post )..

I re-read the earliest FORUMS and revisited some of our discussions..and come away.., still fascinated by this 21st Century tool that the TYEE , so well administers and provides for the PEOPLE of not only this Province but , as an example of what could be.. in all provinces in CANADA*.., A TOOL THAT WOULD LIFT THE FOG OF ', NOT REALLY KNOWING OUR BEGINNINGS , OUR STORIES , OUR NARRATIVE *..

I for one , sure hope that other provinces are looking into providing for their citizens this kind of FORUM EXCHANGE option*.. ( and articles that are after all the catalyst for any successful FORUM to take hold , on whatever issue that it raises * )

Take Care..
Village,

Rafe wrote...

I cannot for the life of me understand why western Canada is anti-Trudeau. Sure he gave many the finger while on a train ride but the western Canadian press denounced him at every opportunity.
Quite frankly he not only tried to keep Quebec in its place as an equal province but he also tried to re-claim Canada's oil reserves. In my opinion he was and is the only true Canadian prime minister that this country has had since ??. Quite frankly, I can't think of any man who was more Canadian and pro-Canada.
My only criticism of him as a leader of our country is that he allowed the deficit to climb - which Mulroney never ceased telling us about and ended up not doing any better.

Racism and bigotry Jack, strong elements of both in western Canada. And deep, deep resentment.

G West:

No, this is at the heart of the issue.

Within Canada it is entirely legal for each and every province to esablish their own EI/UI (whatever you want to call it) system, their own pension system, their own banking system. Just because 'english' Canada has chosen to do it under a 'federal' umbrella does not invalidate the LAW that was created at the time of confederation. Nor does it excuse provinces that bitch and whine about federal powers while accepting being a part of a ponzi scheme called CPP.

eight:

Excellent comment, and this is the rub of it all...

I do not see a 'federal' leader of any political stripe that can command enough support to really be that representative.

I suspect that as the awful realization that the federal government is no longer really capable of representing us 'the great unwashed' that either a Provincial Premier (past or present), possibly a media personality ('cuz they make such good GG's!), or an as yet unseen civic statesman could step forward.

Ultimately the terms will be dictated by PQ unless some sort of a position or stance is presented by 'the canada' it will be time to turn out the lights on Parliament Hill as not many will be paying attention, nor tribute to them anymore. This is the crux of why Rafe has said we need to start thinking and talking about this now, otherwise events will take on a life of their own, on a course directed by only those prepared.

grub:

Interesting, how do you plan to do that without re-opening the 'constitutional constipation' that we all went thru 1980-2000?

How each side 'views' its own position is important to the discussion. For if a compromise will ever be worked out it can only be done by reconciling the 'images' that each group has for the nation.

For my part I say that Canada failed at Meech. It was the end, the long decline is only what has been going on since then.

Everything that Quebec wanted at Meech it has now, yet all that has been satisfied is a small part of the appetite for control and power. With no conclusion, as Meech would have brought as the Quebec National Assembly was ready to ratify the Canada Act following a positive result from the rest of Canada to the accord.

The result was no.

Thus both sides had at the one moment agreed to disagree, no guns no murder no mayhem in the streets, just an amiacable agreement that we were done.

Ottawa refuted this interpretation, Quebec City has not, nor has the BQ since then.

murdock
Quebec has opted out. The other provinces have chosen not to. My view.

Therefore, Quebec has, for the moment, all it needs. Harper is just now preparing to give Quebec some more - exactly as he's been doing for every special interest group he can think of since elected. I posted a list on another thread.

If his plan works, he'll get his majority and the federal nature of Canada will become more diluted.

Exactly what Harper wanted and has been planning for the last 8 - 10 years.

Preston Manning will undoubtedly be happy but John Diefenbaker will be spinning in his grave.

In any case, no matter who wins, Quebec will continue to have the most progressive and socially forward-looking society in Canada because it has the cohesion and sense of real community that the rest of the provinces lack. Their substance having been wasted on directing their regional and local jealousies at each other, Quebec and Ottawa.

Not much to be proud of, in my view.

The rest is white noise.

Village:

Good comments, I will respond later.
=====================================

Given the many comments on this post and the other one currently running with Tieleman and Glavin, it seems quite clear , at least in my view , that Harper is simply repackaging himself as a right wing version of a Federal Lieberal...

He seems to be either ripping off the tried and true Liberal formula, in a sense of sheer irony, and steal their thunder, if not simply neutralizing them.

Harper, it appears, has a strategy to cater to the same basic pool of interests the LIEberals always have...P Herr Trudeau, wrote the modern day operating manual many subsequent political leaders have followed. Harper is perhaps , simply reading the Trudeau manual's fine print more closely, but as I said risk disenfranchisng his own support and risks morphing into the LIEberal.

Dion's forte' seems to be "environment" , and (???),... which is simply a motherhood no -brainer issue, which many on the Left can ruminate on and marinate about in a sense of false hope delusion,a false sense of security and suspended sense of reality non-animation . Dion is simply the best Teflon man the LIEberals could "scrape" up...environment is the warm and fuzzy touchy feely coating....read the optics, SVP.

LIEberal definition of national unity, and for all subsequent Federal leaders, is simply following the ol' tried and true Trudeau formula...if you want to form Gov't. I foresee the future differentiation between political parties as so miniscule , that they may as well merge, but then again, we all lose in the democratic context, and the NDP wandering in the wilderness is perhaps the first early warning sign.

This almost harkens to the recent LIEberal Convention...as the round of votes continue to determine the ultimate winner, the LAST place candidate is knocked off the list...eh NDP?

Missing in all this discussion is whether nationhood in its 19th and 20th century incarnation is even relevant anymore. We have the agglomeration of europe, the break up of the Soviet empire, but overriding all, the massive growth in power and influence of multi-national corporations.

All this handwringing about Canada, whether it has an identity or not, whether it will survive or not, is pretty well moot.

Village:

Sorry for the delay, quite busy and on the go a lot:

Peefer (above) and (below my last comment) makes a good point.

I think man is often locked in a paradox the more sophisticated we become (or think we are). We often ignore history, and think more and more our own status -quo is written in stone, versus the small grains of sand in the overall picture we REALLY are .

Maps become outdated, and we see borders redrawn all over the world, and even in areas of the world that have thousands of years of civilized history. Is this good..or bad...or simply natural and unstoppable?

Its a very fluid socio -political dynamic. The earth itself is not really solid, we exist on flowing geological plates, yet we percieve it as stable and static. Lesson ? = Go with the flow and roll with the punches.

The Quebec issue seems to be one that is simply exploited for political gain, and both sides of the equation lose, except the politician/puppetmasters.

My earlier comment about Canada is the sum of its parts and each part evolving? As an example, a colleague from Saskatchewan informs me many Saskatchewan farms are being abandoned, farming on them is not viable , and the Gov't is purchasing them and remediating them abck to their natural state. People will move on to somewhere ELSE.

In Alberta, say in 100 years, what if the OIL depletes, then a "have not" province?

The Maritimes...no fish, ever poorer thus a greater "have not" region ..or perhaps more Hibernias, more Oil,.. and rich Newfies driving Hummers.

B.C. , in my view, is positioning itself to be quite a major economic force and will the East feel threatened? BC has disproportional amount of less Senate seats...why is this allowed...???...justified resentment..benefits status quo elsewhere?

As a lifelong BC resident, BC's demographic makeup has had huge shifts. Do I feel threatened?... NOT AT ALL, and personally speaking, I think many of these newer groups bring with them positive values that many of us have ignored or taken for granted. I see these groups and their children slowly amalgamating into a more generic westernized culture, by choice. That's the evolution I see here.

I think that many become cynical and resent being played for fools and the political magicians using the same magic tricks...it may come back to haunt them. I do think there is a somewhat backhanded equality, (i) the Canadian -Quebec citizens are not served well by either their Provincial nor Federal Gov'ts and (ii) neither are the rest of us in Canada.

One cannot stop progress, if all else evolves around you, yet IF one wishes to remain status-quo stagnant, historically at what cost? but inevitably something will lose out.

My view is stop the tired old politicized game and you will let far more natural forces thus let destiny come into play, let the chips fall where they may, ...and avoid the UNnatural manipulation and artificial "sweeteners" et al.

THUS....I believe we will see a much more unified Canada if we let things evolve naturally...and perhaps create a "law" that "bans" political interference and manipulation, and simply let the universe unfold as it should, (thus, collectively, no one can point fingers at anyone else).

In my view, that's Nation- unifying and Nation- building EQUALITY, yet often undermined by the very parties we elect to represent us and we hope will actually attempt to achieve it.

Maestro:

Always a pleasure exchanging ideas with you ! These are busy times indeed , and I find myself having to catch up on many fronts all at the same time. (*later today heading to Seattle..and will return in mid- week.. and I'll seek out your comments then..,)

However , I did want to offer up certain observations and comments as I see this post evolve ..

My thinking also takes in Murdocks comments and Gwest as they discuss the PROVINCE OF QUEBEC and her role and status in all of this !

Your very own frame of reference notwithstanding , offers up another approach to tackle the eternal question of .. what would be considered acceptable to all parties involved and what would be the ultimate equation or formula that would make all parties satisfied *..,

and thus by that act.. arrive at a MIND CONSTRUCT that would take in all the different aspirations and points of view.. , INDEED AN ETERNAL QUESTION OF THE HUMAN CONDITION AND IT'S ABILITY TO IMAGINE*.. to quote one great song writer of the past generation..

I'll leave you with this initial thinking framework.. as I must leave now for my journey down South..but when I return.. I will take this up where I left it ..

Thanks once again.., for getting back to me..

and I fully realise that a lot of us over the next few weeks.., will be at best pressed for .. our day to day lives..,

Thus , upon looking forward to your thoughts on this matter.., I would recommend that you take another look at the article : DON'T FORGET THE COUNTRY..'

for there in my most recent posting I was able to lay a certain contextual notion to what I will further develop with you in this post..

MIND CONSTRUCTS..., and how people's over the history of the world..either believed in themselves or did not..' making for the very outcome that Peefer alludes to.. if we do not get our NARRATIVE straight .. ( not only the one that explains away our beginnings.. but the one also that serves as a vehicle to unite us in the present.. and as critical is clearly the other NARRATIVE that continues providing the vision and the hopes for the future..*

Without which no nation can ever hope to take the next step ..

A journey of a lifetime.., with children in the back of our individual and collective minds.. for they will inherit our ... successes and our failures.., ( if that be the case , and this is not a moot observation ).. but reality in it's most naked state..

The ability to dream.., the impossible dream.., ( as one other great character imagined.., with DON QUIXOTE..,

(simply revisit that NARRATIVE.. and discover the beauty of the imagination..) our greatest of collective energy source... more important then oil itself I would submit .. .. dormant , at times as it be..., from time to time.. yet awaiting it's re-awakening.., I'm not suggesting we can do without oil.., for the time being.., but there is something to be said for the INTELLIGENCE of A PEOPLE.. and it's capacity to IMAGINE..it's FUTURE..

it is up to you and me.. and all readers on this matter.. (* or is it MIND that really matters..? ) this is my contention..

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS THE STAND I take on this topic.., that : failure is not an option*..

Take Care,
Village ,

in agreement with cappy,

decentralisation is the key to keeping us one country.

B]hi[/B] , Acadian driftwood. I'd be interested in hearing how you would see this ...

ON A CANVAS..., *( you know the .. decentrilisation is the key to keeping us one country observations you've written..) , suppose you were an ARTIST and you had to paint the kind of image that you have in mind..,

What traits , what details would be part of this particular painting , you envision...

I would be very interested in hearing the details that would expand on this statement you make.., ( as you agree with one other post )..,

I like the '' nom the plume '' that you are using , by the way...., and sense that if you indeed have roots , as I do.., in L'ACADIE.., we perhaps have some very interesting stories to exchange.., to in effect share with all of the readers also of THE TYEE...

Est-ce que tu parle le Français.., ? ..

comment longtemps est tu résident dans l'OUEST... si ceçi est le cas...,

( I hope you can make out what I've written immediately above.., ) IF NOT LET ME KNOW.. AND WE CAN APPROACH THIS FROM ANOTHER ANGLE AND POINT OF VIEW.., as per ever expanding and contracting imaginative leaps... that we all make , now and time again.

IDEAS IN ANY NATION or TRIBE.. is the very nutrient and indeed. , source of energy that .. creates the kind of MIND CONSTRUCT , that eventually leads PEOPLE to a realisation , an awakening as to being part of a COMMUNITY*...

Sense of Place.., Sense of Belonging ..Sense of Identity.. , wouldn't you say ?

for I am certain that for some reason , the handle you give yourself.., has something to do with your past..,

(if not sorry for presuming I've understood the why.., and the who.. and the where , and the when,,.. and the obvious.. HOW..,), of you appearing at this time and on this post at that..

just like an acadian log.., adrift in the oceans.., from sea to sea to sea.. for if ever there is a people who has a sense of OCEANS and NOTIONS themselves..it's the ACADIANS*..

HOW did you come to adopt such a fascinating name.., is what I'm really asking you..?

Take Care..,
Village.