Iraq will end in a most bloody civil was, where the religious zealots will win, only because they brieng a moral and religious stability with them. That's how the Talibann became so powerful in Afghanistan.

The Americans are way too much right wing Christian to understant the Muslim way of life. As with Vietnam, Iraq's are just 'gooks' with turbans and the Americans treat them as such. The americans, because they believe they are God's choosen people understand nothing, remember nothing, and learn nothing.

OOPs not a civil was a civil war! Time for a new keyboard.

What nonsense. Canada was in charge of a multinational force protecting US war ships in the Gulf, not to mention the many Canadian industries that supply critical parts and technology to the US war machine. Enough with the perception management, Mr. Glavin. And your article is written within a paradigm that says it's ok for the rogue bully to invade wherever it chooses, after all, it's to bring "democracy" to wherever it chooses. And you know, "it's worth it" to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people while bringing democracy. Innocent people, for god's sake. They will never see this vaunted democracy.

What do we owe Iraq? An apology, and a condemnation of the murder of Iraqis. Yankee go home. Canuck go home.

The Americans did not abandon the Marsh/Shite Arabs in 1991 because of the "Peace Now" camp. They were afraid the Iranians would take advantage of the revolt thus dismembering an already prostrate Irag. The UN coalition mandate was to reestablish the territorial integrity of Kuwait, not to inviolate the borders of Iraq. A "palace coup" was the preferable option where a more compliant leader would work with the UN/American coalition instead of the uncontrollable Saddam. There was much expectation around this option, hence they abandoned the rebels to their fate.
In my view it is comforting to speak with people like Ambassador Ziad who is seemingly sectarian and democratic. However,he represents a tiny minority in a country which was artificially created after 1918. There are millions who are not even remotely a part of this mindset. Violence is not just targeted against trade unionists who are Left oriented and sectarian but randomly directed at trades dominated by religious groups. A recent article in the Guardian Weekly denoted bakers and barbers as falling in this category. Barbers in Baghdad are largely Christian who cut beards thus making them targets of Shiite fanatics. Bakers in the city are largely Shiite thus making them targets of the Sunnis during communal strife.

More garbage from Glavin, Canada's unfunny answer to Christopher Hitchens. This rubbish isn't really worth commenting on. I think we should maybe take the advice of an earlier poster (sorry I forget who but it might have been G. West) that we boycott Glavin's column. As for the Tyee itself, here we have what is supposed to be an outlet for progressive thinking publishing the sort of neocon propaganda you could find in in the Nazi Pest. What a waste!

But it is strange that the left has given away the moral high ground to the right, as far the morality in international affairs

The right did not support the invasion of Iraq for moral reasons (that became the "reason" after the fact). The left is not proposing that attempts at democracy in Iraq be scrapped -- it's simply nearly impossible to do anything within the chaos that Bush has created.

I think discussions of 'left' and 'right' outdated and not particualrly useful. A recent example,Jack Layton's support of Harper's Income Trust bill is a good example of making a decision based on what makes sense-not reflexifevly dividing into camps of left and right.

what do we owe iraq? absolutely nothing. get the hell out and let those violent maniacs deal with each other as they will.

Come on, you guys... Why bother responding to a guy who writes something like this:

"...a reflective anti-Americanism has mutated into a surrogate for analysis."

What means: We lefties just hate America so much that everything we believe about its forein policy is tainted by our rabid hatred.

More Glavin sillies!

"...the left has given away the moral high ground to the right."

This guy's an adolescent, eh.

Wasn't me anarcho. But it is a good idea - boycott the bum!

I would think it would be self evident that the countries that commit atrocities during a war of agression are not the agents that can or should be involved in the reconstruction of the victim country. Glavins position is totally delusional.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15456.htm

Did you see the account by an American war resister (tv last night) who told of watching a group of American soldiers playing soccer with an Iraqis head?

Or just google: "78%Iraqis think American soldiers make it worst," or "60%Iraqis say its good to kill American troops." (University of Maryland poll)

Glavin's in a Euston Manifesto fog.

Little Elliot just proved that this issue is not really about left vs right: he's on side with the so-called lefties, and we all know where he generally positions himself.

I'm left of center myself, but I support an interventionist foreign policy. Traditionally, war meant that young men sacrificed their bodies while old men sacrificed their capital. Income tax, the best idea of the last 100 years, came from this kind of thinking; George Bush's tax cuts are stupid for many reasons, but are especially immoral in the context of this war.

I'm surprised that a number of conservatives are in favour of the Iraq Adventure, given their general attitude about the welfare of others. Elliot's attitude seems more in keeping with the right-wing paradigm, actually.

My sense of moral responsibilty argues that every affluent member of the first world should take a pay cut for the next ten decades in order to fund a non-stop campaign to take on every ******* we can find. Saddam fit the bill perfectly. Let's do Mugabe next. China is a fascist dictatorship; I'd gladly pay more for shoes and patio furniture just to make a moral statement against those bastards.

I'm not saying that the U.S. has chosen this course for the moral reasons I describe. We all know where this war fits in their perverted economic universe. Hell, they deserve to be targeted (as do we) if they don't start taking a moral path on important environmental issues such as climate change.

But it needs to be said that a policy of isolationism is, and almost always has been, a rejection of a moral imperative that one finds at the core of progressive thought.

Davey-boy
Roll back the clock 20 years. Who was the American's biggest bugbear in those days?

I'll tell you, it was Gadhaffi. He's been turned around by a process of carrot/stick and diplomacy, threats and cajoling and is now a member in relatively good standing (relative to the US at least) in the international community. Your theory that there are better ways to reform the world's badguys ought to start with Libya and how that project worked. The same thing would probably have worked with Saddam. Although I think there may be times when actual force is necessary - I think the down side to war is almost never worth the cost and I'll be using Iraq as an example of that for a good long time - pretty much alongside Vietnam.

Isolationism wasn't at the heart of the Libya project - engagement, constructive engagement was. China is infinitely better off today as part of the international community than it was prior to Nixon's visit.

God save us all from "do gooders" with DU munitions and waterboards.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=18077

What's really amazing is how he wielded that carrot and stick.

I would like to know why Tyee doesn't do a story on what is happening in Oaxaca instead of Glavin's neocon apologetics. In Oaxaca we have people on a general strike against a corrupt politician who have created their own parallel government based upon direct (ie real) democracy. For those of you who might be interested see:
http://www.narconews.com/

Apparently the federales have laid siege to the University in Oaxaca.

anarcho said:

Absolutely anarcho,

An article on Oaxaca would have value, and serve us all in directing us to a greater understanding on this issue imo.

Or, if we want something more local (B.C.ish), how about the War recently waged on the all the predators of B.C. This paves the way for logging and mining companies to then shirk their responsibility in the eminent deaths and even the possible extermination of the mountain caribou in B.C. We haven't yet heard anything about this scientifically and ethically unsupported initiative in the Tyee yet...

Nothing personal to Glavin but imo his take on "life" is not something I care to explore anymore, and imo, contains some toxic biases. Let's move on to issues we would appreciate exploring relative to our earth today. Just a thought...

Peace,

-Bear

...actually, I take that back...This is personal...!!!
-Bear

Hi, RTB. I thought you'd be back to reconsider that. Excellent! And great posts lately, as usual.

Somehow our normally fantastic Tyee editorship has gotten it into their minds that Glavin is more than just a pathetic little boy lost in a world he doesn't understand.

Maybe this link posted by Nana on another thread will will help catch him up: http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/021106_vidal.html

Truman said:

Hey brother Truman,

Alway good to read ya... Yeah, basically, that is it in a nut shell. Well said my friend...

Peace always Truman,

-Bear

I'm with you Dude. I'm so sick of these left/right labels. I believe in free markets. I believe in social safety nets. What does that make me? A centrist? No. Just a guy who understands the world comes in shades of grey, not black and white extremes. I believe the labels do nothing but divide. Everybody is yelling at each other and not listening at all. Not surprisingly the divide just grows.

Is this how I should raise my child... believing that those who think differently from me are bad just because they think differently? Is intolerance the answer to those who see the world differently from me? Talk about becoming that which you abhor.

There's good and bad people on both sides of this artificial divide. As long we keep shouting left - right, left - right at each other we'll just march ourselves into oblivion as things fall apart. What's left won't be the good people of any political stripe, just the opportunistic cannibals.

I'm so tired of the name-calling (of which I've done my share too). Let's try civility for a change. Listening instead of shouting. Acting like there's children in the room instead of acting like children.

Just. This. Once.

Excellent analysis as usual. Glad that Glavin is a columnist for the Tyee: he brings perspective rather than rhetoric. Glad that none of his critics are columnists for the Tyee. May it ever be so.

"Ideology is the corruption of reason and is morally akin to lying." John L. Allen, Jr.

"what do we owe iraq? absolutely nothing. get the hell out and let those violent maniacs deal with each other as they will."

We owe them nothing. We demand no recompense. We go and help because it's the right thing to do (although the methods in this case are not working and need to be changed). We realize "those violent maniacs" could apply to us as well.

We let sick people die in the streets. We let children go hungry. We act as though we have some claim to high moral ground, while we strip the Earth of its bounty and pass along the cost to our children. We create computer models of car theft, assault, and murder and call it a "game". Who are we to preach about the path of righteousness?

We have no right to preach. We have an obligation to help. To lead by example. Because not to do so is to be less than an animal.

For shame Elliott that you would be so intolerant. That you would not recognize there is no Us and Them. There's just Us. We are a family. And if we want to be happy we'd better learn to love our family, warts and all. If we don't we will kill all that is left of that which is beautiful in this world and replace it with even more hate and greed and suffering.

Why dump on glavin? He is basically retailing the position of the Iraqi ambassador.

The utter lack of realism in the ambassador's hopes was depressing.

Anyone who reads the newspapers knows that the ambassador's recommendation that defeating the Baathists with external assistance would create the conditions for a pluralistic secular future is ridiculous.

The ethnic genie (foreseen since the end of WW ONE) is out of the bottle. Resolution will be bloody.

Less bloody, perhaps, IF ALL of the external forces (most notably, the US, Saudis, Iranians and Gulf States Emirates) agreed to stop supporting their friends until some agreement had been reached among the domestic parties.

I'm not holding my breath for that to occur.

I got to agree with the the sentiment,"Why dump on Terry Glavin? He is basically re-telling the position of the Iraqi ambassador"..
What does one expect the Ambassador to say.Of course he wants the US troops to stay,his life,his job,and the continuance of his government depends on that remaining the case.
If Terry Glavin supports that position,who knows.
That said after years of US troops,hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's,a govt that still depends on outsiders for protection,a country that is more and more divided its quit clear things are not working out and probably won't as long as US troops remain.
Most Iraqi's see American presence as part of the problem,as fueling the violence.But then "what would the Iraqi people know"...
In the end the US troops will leave,the Iraqi people will figure things out in their own time.Its the Iraqi people who will have to decide their future.
If the Islamist's take over,as they probably will so be it.In a country as ravaged as Iraq,with next to no civil society left what does one expect.Its only the groups organized around Islam that have any influence or credibility left with the ordinary people .
Nothing good will come of the US invasion,democracy must be built by Iraqi's,it is not built over night,nor can it come from without.Indeed worse is probably yet to come.
The US troops are but stalling one inevitable fact,Iraqi's will take over their country and government,regardless of US opinion,moralizing,or policy.
And its not going to be Western style democracy,that might come later in time.
Iran would be a good example of what is likely to happen.
What the US government,or any political commentator in the West has to say about it,will in the end matter in the least.

While Glavin whines about the left"s attitudes, its the people in general he should be attacking. Interesting stats in the following Guardian article of today:

"America is now seen as a threat to world peace by its closest neighbours and allies, according to an international survey of public opinion published today that reveals just how far the country's reputation has fallen among former supporters since the invasion of Iraq.
Carried out as US voters prepare to go to the polls next week in an election dominated by the war, the research also shows that British voters see George Bush as a greater danger to world peace than either the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il, or the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Both countries were once cited by the US president as part of an "axis of evil", but it is Mr Bush who now alarms voters in countries with traditionally strong links to the US.
The survey has been carried out by the Guardian in Britain and leading newspapers in Israel (Haaretz), Canada (La Presse and Toronto Star) and Mexico (Reforma), using professional local opinion polling in each country.
It exposes high levels of distrust. In Britain, 69% of those questioned say they believe US policy has made the world less safe since 2001, with only 7% thinking action in Iraq and Afghanistan has increased global security.
The finding is mirrored in America's immediate northern and southern neighbours, Canada and Mexico, with 62% of Canadians and 57% of Mexicans saying the world has become more dangerous because of US policy.
Even in Israel, which has long looked to America to guarantee national security, support for the US has slipped.
Only one in four Israeli voters say that Mr Bush has made the world safer, outweighed by the number who think he has added to the risk of international conflict, 36% to 25%. A further 30% say that at best he has made no difference.
Voters in three of the four countries surveyed also overwhelmingly reject the decision to invade Iraq, with only Israeli voters in favour, 59% to 34% against. Opinion against the war has hardened strongly since a similar survey before the US presidential election in 2004.
In Britain 71% of voters now say the invasion was unjustified, a view shared by 89% of Mexicans and 73% of Canadians. Canada is a Nato member whose troops are in action in Afghanistan. Neither do voters think America has helped advance democracy in developing countries, one of the justifications for deposing Saddam Hussein. Only 11% of Britons and 28% of Israelis think that has happened.
As a result, Mr Bush is ranked with some of his bitterest enemies as a cause of global anxiety. He is outranked by Osama bin Laden in all four countries, but runs the al-Qaida leader close in the eyes of UK voters: 87% think the al-Qaida leader is a great or moderate danger to peace, compared with 75% who think this of Mr Bush..."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1938434,00.html

November 3, 2006
Protesters in Mexico Push Riot Police Back
By REUTERS

OAXACA, Mexico, Nov. 2 (Reuters) — Thousands of protesters hurling Molotov cocktails forced riot police officers with tear gas and water cannons to retreat on Thursday, as clashes intensified here in this popular tourist city.

At least eight people were injured in the violence, including a newspaper photographer who was hit by fireworks launched from the grounds of Oaxaca State’s university, a center of the protests. More than a dozen people have died in the conflict.

The federal police, who took over downtown Oaxaca last weekend, were pushed back by hundreds of protesters guarding the entrance to the university.

The riot police had the upper hand at first, when reinforcements arrived in armored trucks and helicopters, spraying water cannons and firing tear gas canisters.

But as they pushed through barricades of burned vehicles, the activists, who have blockaded the city for five months and demand that Gov. Ulises Ruiz step down, threw gasoline bombs at them. Local residents joined the demonstrators.

As the police backed away, the streets filled with thousands of people chanting, “Ulises has fallen.”

Anarcho, G West, Right to Bear re OAXACA

Yeah, why indeed spend all this time dumping on Terry Glavin? Either ignore him or find something useful to talk about, if you've got so much steam, fer chrissake. Anarcho, G West and Right to Bear touched on Oaxaca above, which I've been following closely these last few days, thanks to the internet and my rusty Spanish, and yeah, there's HEAPS of important stuff going on down there. This forum is supposed to be about Iraq, not about Terry anyway; so why not talk about Oaxaca instead - which is important - instead of Terry, who isn't (sorry Terry).

So here's the most useful link I've found, admittedly from a leftist paper, but when used with babelfish you can make sense of it, more or less; who knows some of you may speak Spanish. It's the "Latest" section of the online La Jornada, the lefty paper:

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/ultimas

remove the ultimates and you'll get the daily editions. The other two main papers are
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx (centrist/independent)
http://www.reforma.com (rightist)

The last footage of the late Bradley Will of Indymedia can be seen via links somewhere off http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml

Narconews.com also had some good stuff, if good is the word:

http://narconews.com/otroperiodismo/en.html
from which:
http://narconews.com/Issue43/article2289.html
http://laluchita.blogspot.com/
http://narconews.com/Issue43/article2282.html

There's no doubt heaps more of independent media all over this, but I'm just keeping pace with these guys and La Jornada. Not because La Jornada is leftist, but because it seems to have the most thorough coverage - particularly of the APPO point of view (Asamblea Popular de los Pueblos de Oaxaca), which is absent from Reforma's headline summaries - to see the content you have to subscribe - and is rightist in origin and inclination and bias. El Universal is apparently very good in the middle of the road but seems less on-the-ground than some of the argument and opinion in La Jornada...if you understand Spanish Radio Universitaria remains on the air via a Mexico City relay (through one of the links above) = it's the target of the police raid on the university. Which failed - meaning tomorrow or the next few days could be a bloody affair if Vicente Fox doesn't stop behaving like Echevarria...

This is big stuff, just as news; lesser items from other continents get coverage here, why not this?

How many dead by now? Another today, including a guy who was supposed to have been killed by tear gas but has a big hole in his chest - indicating someone else got blown away like the aforementioned Bradley Will - as indeed another bit of video footage that's made it out of Oaxaca shows a cop's barrel pointing straight at a cameraman, and the clip ending.

CBC's 20-second segment tonight was shamefully brief, did not mention the deaths and had bizarrely little in the way of footage from behind APPO lines, which is all over the place, even in mainstream services like AP; it's not as if they can't use indymedia's footage, either, or those from Reporters Without Borders. There was no political explanation about Oaxaca, only that the Mexican government was taking control and that there had been riots. The level of violence was not shown in the videos, or given in the text.

Why is Iraq more important to Canada than Mexico? Aren't we partners with Mexico? Despite the language differences, don't se share a commonality of place, more than neighbours with in fact old historic ties (this was, after all, part of New Spain, and Mexicans were also here during the first days of the colony, as also at Nootka Sound). There's also more and more Mexicans living here now, either as students, immigrants or vacationers.

Our peacekeeping troops and foreign affairs diplomats could have been a lot better disposed these last few months to mediating between Mexico City and the new regime in Oaxaca, and helping with political and policing reforms (er, maybe that second idea's not so good).

Or do we only holiday in Mexico, and anything else is an internal Mexican matter. Yeah, just like the bad old days of the PRI, with the rest of North America looking anywhere but ever since, well, ever since. And that includes Pearson and Trudeau and other Canadian small-l and big-l Liberals and, largely, the socialist community which has been more interested in, variously, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, and so on.

Mexico's a big player, a big economy, three or four times the size of Canada in population and also in liveable territory. It's a complex place, difficult to understand, entrenched with problems reminiscent of our own, only much more pronounced. Another post-colonial society, overtaken by bandits who just won't let go. It's the archetypal country that globalization is supposed to help, to bring into democracy and freedom by way of better means of capitalism and foreign investment and all that - what it's probably boiling down to, though, is that the big-money people who have sunk foreign investments in Mexico want to keep Oaxaca and its ramifications from the newspages, as it would hurt stock values, and of course the tourist trade and with that the airlines and probably also any currency connected to the peso - namely the US and Canadian dollars, by way of NAFTA.

Curiously at the same time this is going on we've got apologists making excuses for importing Central American wage conditions into British Columbia.....

sorry for La Jornada that should be

http://www.jornada.unam.mx
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/ultimas/

I should put that in context: Will's last footage is thought to include a sequence ending with his death, in which a plainclothes aims and fires at the camera, ending the clip and, apparently, Will's life. The US has protested to Mexico overt the affair, but as one Mexican columnnist puts it, why did it take the death of only one foreigner to get the world's attention when twelve Mexicans were already dead?

And it still hasn't caught Canada's attention, to judge by the content of our papers and news broadcasts. They're looking anywhere but.

[QUOTETerry Glavin Brings his 'Dissent' to The Tyee

Terry Glavin may call his column 'Dissent', but he seems to have a bit of an attitude problem with those who do not agree with his views. Here is a quote from his blog:

It seems that dissent is a one-way street for Terry Glavin.

Brilliant concept, Skookum1, let's completely ignore this goofy columnist in two weeks.

And you're right, there's not enough coverage from Latin America.

So in two weeks let's ignore Glavin's next 'dissent' and go straight to events in Nicaragua, where Daniel Ortega will be president.

I don't know what Glavin's position was in 2002-2003 on the issue of the Iraq invasion, but there was an excellent article in The American Prospect a year ago on the excuses made by the "liberal hawks" for the debacle. It talks about the argument, which Michael Ignatieff makes, that the invasion was a good idea in principle, and it was only Bush's incompetence that sunk it. It also deals with the false dichotomy that says our choices were to invade Iraq, or do nothing. If the spin from the liberal hawks isn't challenged, then nothing will be learned from the fiasco. Here's the link:

http://tinyurl.com/dnrs6

El Universal photo galleries of the Battle of Benito Juarez University yesterday:

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/fotogaleria/wfg.html?gal=2863
(use the "siguente" button at the lower right of the picture to advance to the next image)
http://graficos.eluniversal.com.mx/appo_oaxaca/index.html

The CBC, in its under-30-seconds bit, had only shots from behind police lines, very poorly shot, and of course no actual coverage of the why and the wherefore. Verdict: the CBC is censoring news from Oaxaca, apparently because it might instigate potential blockades and such in Canada. I'd venture that the private networks are more concerned with their travel/vacation advertising revenues, though...

OK, to be fair, CBC is just using CP wirecopy to build its stories - and nothing else. I searched cbc.ca and here are their most recent links concerning Oaxaca, all Canadian Press. Note the difference in tone even from the material from the Mexican papers, as well as the independent media (and, if you search their online edition, even the New York Times has better coverage):

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/061103/w110338.html
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/061102/w110240.html
Top billed for Canadian readers, though, is the travel advisory:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourview/2006/10/canadian_officials_warn_touris.html

And in a tone that is reminiscent only of La Reforma's headlines:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/30/oaxaca-unrest.html

You'd think CBC would have a Spanish-speaking Latin America correspondent/commentator, like the half-dozen they've got on staff for the Middle East and likewise for other regions of the world, and would not depend only on a wire service that shows clear bias in its coverage....

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/30/oaxaca-unrest.html

I don't think the poor reporting from Mexico is just because they speak Spanish and we don't. The powers that be do not want links, other than officially vetted ones, formed between the two countries.

Here's some unintentional black homour.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2435289,00.html

"America fights to take charge of UN peacekeepers around world
By James Bone and Richard Beeston
Move could help exit strategy from Iraq
The United States is lobbying to put an American, possibly a general, in charge of all UN peacekeeping operations in a move that could offer Washington an exit strategy in Iraq.

The unprecedented US bid for the top UN peacekeeping post would place an American in command of the 95,000 UN peacekeepers in trouble spots from Le
banon to Sudan."

Thank you nana, I missed that.

What a disconnect - Bush appoints John Bolton, the main opponent of the 'existence' of the United Nations as US Ambassador to the UN; which still fails to pay its long overdue assessments; and Bolton and the US now attempt to co-opt the whole organization to pull their nuts out of the fire in Iraq - all the while with a US appointee in the saddle.

Now that is Chutpah!

should be Chutzpah, my bad!

Bolton always reminds me of an attenuated version of Wilfred Brimley!

Yup, I agree, let the Iraqis see what is actually happening within Canada right now..how all our civil and human rights are deteriorating day by day. Let them see how those who enthusiastically supported Bush's invasion of Iraq...the so-called "mighty" of this country (the mightily weak of character, in actuality) govern here. Let them see the sham that democracy has become in this country...and south of the border from here... under the governments of those who are arrogant enough to pretend they are now governing democratically in any sense of the word. Let the Iraqis see the respect the Harper government has toward women...their huge cuts to the Status of Women and the restrictive conditions placed on future funding as well. Let the Iraqis look at what has happened to the trade union movement within this country...at the policies of Campbell, Klein et al that have attacked the collective bargaining process and eradicated human rights to the point of condemnation by the UN over Campbell's arrogant disregard for the bargaining process and the ruthless destruction of the social infrastructure and its devastating effects on the lives of women, children and the poor within this province.

Let them see the erosion of civil liberties taking place in this country right now. Let them see how easy it is now to access information in this country...to find out the truth about anything in this country...whether it is the sale of our railroads, our ferries, our medical information, our power, our water, our river..our souls.

Yup, let the Iraqis see it all as Ziad suggests...including what went on inside those recent meetings in Banff with the Harper crew et al...let them see that for sure... the dirty inside view of how those in power here really operate...and how their pretend democracy is about to sell this country and all of its citizens down the road...behind closed doors.

What was once Canada's greatness and what once had real value is being made counterfeit and worthless....by those who have no values other than monetary ones.

So far the bringing of this sham brand of democracy to Iraq has resulted in 755,000 Iraqi civilian deaths..this shocking number climbing daily.

What do we owe Iraq? Honesty, I think, would be a good beginning.

We owe them for the US to get out of their country, and give them their lives and country back.

Short of that, we should take up Frank's suggestion and form an alliance of countries to invade the US, and carry out a regime change there. Time to democratize Amerika.

And they actually have Weapons of Mass Destruction and wave upon wave of fundamentalist Christian religious nutters, one of whom is their President.

There is no greater threat that the entire world faces than the fundamentalist fascist USA.

Time to take 'em on!

Frank is onside I know. :-)

(The old lady gets frisky whenever we are staying in a motel. Gotta go.)

Though I hope some of you are paying attention to the stuff Skookum 1 is putting up. (Excellent work, Skookum.)

The leading edge of what is to come in the "Uberstat" North Amerikan Union zone is now happening in Oaxaca, as what has passed for democracy to here, begins to break down.

Next, Canada. Maybe even the USA.

Enough of this Neocon Fascist bullshitt.

Take 'em on here too. Time for this country to find its courage and will to resist. Time to defeat Neocon Fascist, religious fundamentalist Amerika here too. Time for Canadians to claim their own country.

Glavin?

Who is Glavin?

Sounds like a Zionist floor wax.

Lynn,

Grrrowrr!

Love your politics, babe. :-) A major turn on.

Good article above.

Glavin needs to look a little deeper than the Ambassador's views. The ambassador is still speaking to a political solution when the personal and the business solutions are going wanting, and would have a much bigger effect.

Greg Palast does a much better job of identifying another route to success. He calls it "cut and run" but it's mostly about giving Iraqis the dollars and contracts to do the job themselves.

http://www.gregpalast.com/are-us-corporations-going-to-%e2%80%9cwin%e2%80%9d-the-iraq-war#more-1520

The Iraqi man or woman who is too busy earning money for his family doesn't have time to pick up a gun and turn it on his neighbour. And he also doesn't have time to listen to mullahs who tell him the reason he doesn't have work or meaning in his life is because he hasn't killed himself for Allah yet.

Lord knows there's lots of work for everyone in Iraq. And lots of money too. I'm sure Capitalism would be happy to hear these words.

It's time for the army to cut and run. Let those who have real solutions take over. It might not be fair at the end, but it's not fair now to the half a million who have already died. At least it'll be a home-grown solution.

And Glavin's views on the "left" (into which I would guess he would dump me in with the lot of you, poor dears) are just the witless maunderings of an old crank. He's too young for senility, so I can only assume it's jealousy that he doesn't belong to this "club" - or for that matter, any club. Leave him on the Tyee, and give him an education he sorely needs.

Coyote said:

Next, Canada. Maybe even the USA.

Right on Coyote, and that is the point brother.

We are not exempt from the effects of our destabilizing democracy anymore than Oaxaca. So lets take this opprotunity to see what our future could look like, and not let this happen to us... Thanks 'Yote.

lynn said:

lynn, your the Gal...!
I won't attempt to paraphrase it, as you said it perfectly...

Stump said:

...yeah Stump, "who are we"... Well said brother...-B

A quote from a previous post:

Indeed, show the Iraqis, show the world...!! Today’s truth is sadly that we are not on a peaceful path, but a warring one...!!

More Peace...

-Bear

Whether you view yourself as left or not Zalm, from my point of view, you still fundamentally get it.

Excellent points.

And Bear, :-) your energy, compassion, and intelligent concern are infectious. I always read your posts for that battery charge effect they have on me.

And I thought you were a guy! When such could only come from a mighty fine gal, of course! (Having raised four daughters, how I missed it is inexcusable. 8-D LOL

...back at U brother Coyote, although I think your battery is fully charged all the time...!!

You've have lots of heart bro...

Peace and love,

-Bear

There is something we have overlooked, and that is the false flag operations which have gone on in Iraq aimed at breaking the country up into 3 entities.
Below from Sept. 05
http://www.physics911.ca/Compilation:_British_Forces_Conduct_False-Flag_Bombings_in_Iraq

My small town paper (news@nanaimodailynews.com)has an intriguing headline today:
"Canadians Tired of the Fight"
I am not in complete agreement with the writer, but there does seem to be a resonant theme here: the majority of Canadians do not (whether they are "tired" or not) support this particular escapade. The writer seems a bit nostalgic for previous wars when Canadians simply kept on grunting no matter how many casualties and how few were still grunting along side him/her.
Not a lot of discussion regarding exactly what a Canadian should grunt about. Apparently we are really proficient at simply grunting when instructed to do so.
We will see.
Neither of my daughters entered the military. If I had a son I would likely have encouraged him to do so a few years ago.

But not now!

I'm sorry for our involvement in Afghanistan. I'm sorry for those who have lost people dear to them.

But I would appologize to the Afghani first.

And to the Hardheads who have trouble with people like me who cry easily: I too am canadian and I am betting I can grunt harder than you

Just a tiny point relative to the author of this piece, Terry Glavin.

Two days ago I visited his blog and noted a comment there which was both dismissive and rude about the general tenor of postings to his commentary at Tyee - I think he called Tyee posters 'nutters' and alluded to certain other minority opinions about his journalism.

I posted a critical but not impolite comment about folks who make such comments behind others' backs and suggested that he ought to have the courage to confront these people with whom he disagrees and not do it such a backhanded and dishonest way. He had, after all, stated that he was interested in fomenting dissent.

I revisited his blog today to discover he'd removed my comment. Apparently 'dissent' is not so important when Terry's not the one doing the dissenting.

That pretty much proves exactly what kind of an honest man Mr Glavin is.

In other words, not very!

You can all go over to his blog and see for yourself.

http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/

Just read an article in the Vancouver Sun about "EcoRage" which I admit to suffering from ocassionaly. Is there another "Rage" out there?
Blogerrage?
Cutting someone off in traffic or hammering on the horn (most modern horns are fairly pathetic)would be similar to "removing" an unwanted post or tossing litter back in to the offending SUV.
I do not notice any fundamental difference in attitude between Glavin and Alcibiades but here we are quarelling about who's "Bon Mot" is best.
Having seen the results of total breakdown of civil society I would say to those still imagining: You do not want to know.

"White man Dancing"

doggone
I merely posted a question about why someone interesting in dissent would be so pusillanimous as to delete a comment which 'dissented' with Glavin's nominal and quite ad hominem (you'll see what I mean if you've been to his blog) categorization of all the commentary that his initial (and subsequent) article at Tyee had engendered.

I think it does say something about what Mr. Glavin's attitude toward free speech actually is. And by implication, it says something about David Beers’ motivation for bringing such a man and his attitudes here as a regular columnist.

This is not a quarrel about words, it’s a question of openness, honesty and fundamentally, truth.

Them are big words you are weilding there Alcibiades.
"The Truth is a Pathless Land"
I did read some of Glavin's stuff and was by no means offended.
However, I was not accusing you or Glavin of Bloggerage. It just seems to me there is a natural progression:Road/environment/internet rage
What is next? Spousal and self abuse (rage)?

As have I, doggone; read some of Glavin's writing and found myself nodding in agreement. As have I.

Why then involve himself in an exercise so compromised in advance as this thing here at Tyee has been, and, when questioned - delete the offending query?

In the greater scheme of things it is of absolutely no importance; but I was more than willing to engage civilly with the man at his convenience - as you and I are doing now - at his place of business.

He seems unwilling to acknowledge the fact, either here or there, that all those who disagree with him are not, what is his term, 'nutters'.

Although the man has gone down considerably in my estimation, I'm sure he'll live with it.

And I'll drop the matter - further engagement with someone who prefers his own isolation to an actual conversation is a waste of time.

You guys still bitching about whether or not Terry should have a column at The Tyee or not? Sheesh.

Here's a full account of the Battle of Ciudad Universitaria for you to consider:

http://www.narconews.com/Issue43/article2296.html

And though some of you have seen these links, here's some images in montage form as well as a full Mexican newsbroadcast, with VERY intense battle footage from Friday and especially Wednesday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itdv5Yq9i_c&mode=related&search=
It's all in Spanish, but the images tell the whole story and it's a lot more than I've even seen in the print media, certainly a lot more than the clips on our media so far (CBC's coverage two nights ago expanded and got more conscientious, with interviews with Mexican exiles in Canada).

Anyone hear remember a Mexican political asylum case, guy named Arturo Cruz? He wasn't interviewed the other night, but his story is a propos. Ranking officer within the Mexican military, walked out of Campo Militar Numero Uno one day with orders he didn't want, went straight to the airport and got on the plane for Toronto and applied for asylum; took a long time for diplomatic reasons, because of relations with Mexico, but he didget refugee status, based on his stories of the atrocities he'd committed in the name of the Mexican republic.

That was in PRI days, though. It's not supposed to be happening under PAN. But it is.

ooops, forgot the stills-montage link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xru40MIbF4&mode=related&search=

Yeh, I remember Cruz, and I saw the CBC piece, which was a bit better but still far from complete and even handed; still a definite improvement.

I've no problem with Terry being here, as I've said already, but I'd have to second Alcibiades post above. What Terry posted on his blog - and his subsequent action - was the move of a quisling. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Are there any Latin-Canadian MPs? Or MPs noted for their knowledge of Latin America? I'm just wondering who to pester about raising it in Parliament, or at least speak to it publicly.

Today on the news there was coverage of street demonstrations over the mayor of Taipei. And coverage of a stupid name dispute over Beijing's Olympic mascots. And nothing on Oaxaca, even though you can drive there from here; it's on this continent, part of a shared economic and cultural community, such as NAFTA is evolved into (ie. in a community sense).

Sure, that's Global's coverage for ya, I don't expect any different. CBC appears to have changed its tune, though I haven't seen anything new since. An interview with Cruz would be pretty interesting, but the terms of his aslyum included his silence, I think. Interviewing the many Mexican students here, or the growing number of Mexican immigrants and workers, won't work, because of the risk of reprisals back home, as is the nature of the crisis (much of Mexico is as gangster-run as the State of Oaxaca was; Ruiz was simply one of the very worst).

One of the issues of Turkey's "normalization" into the EU has been that it bring its civil and democratic rights up to snuff, and diminish the power of its military in politics (tricky to do because of the Turkish constitution, and Turkish realpolitik). But Mexico's far worse, although it's been a whole lot[I/] worse in the past.

Canada, as a NAFTA partner and kindred, should offer its traditional mediator role, maybe coordinating internationally-supervised new elections in Oaxaca (help which would have to be requested by Mexico, not imposed on it). Reforming the Mexican police and military and the age-old kickback and bribe/extortion system upon which much of the country's society still runs is a bigger task; but the issue would seem to be that, if we're going to have a "level playing field" with these guys, that should extend to standards of public governance and humane society.

I remember just before the Yugoslavian Wars began, just after a highly-televised world crisis that was up-close-and-high-in-the-ratings there was an editorial cartoon showing a circle of TV cameras, with different network logos, perched around the caldera of a smoking volcano, pointing down into it.

I get that feeling right now, except the cameras are handhelds, and not in network hands. But if APPO's success in maintaining its support among the Oaxacan people (and the Mexican public imagination) and in showing the dreaded forces of the state, even riot squads, can be beaten off, the spread of shows of support will increase across Mexico. If there's further violent attack by the state on APPO it will completely derail the Calderon inauguration (Calderon has, as far as I can tell, remained silent so far, but I haven't been reading everything). The capital is already in a political crisis, which won't be over until Ruiz resigns; further bloodshed in Oaxaca could easily spread elsewhere, also....

Mexicans don't like outside interference in their domestic matters, no more than Canada tolerated international observers during Oka. But given the close economic relationship and growing social ties between the two partners to the elephant, the mouse and the burro perhaps (to extend the usual paradigm), it behooves someone in the Canadian media/political establishment to [I]say something.

I suppose what might be fun could be a question at a Liberal leadership campaign stop; not that any of them would dare say anything. What Canadian politician knows much about Mexican politics? Are there any that would dare take a stand, even if their timeshares are in Maui and not Mazatlan?

oops about those italics; that's 'cause I type them instead of use the buttons...

I don't recall any MPs having a connection to Mexico, Skookum1. But, I have a vague recollection that there is a Bloc MP who is Haitian. That might be someone who would have a sympathetic ear - can't remember the name though. Not that throwing a few small pebbles in that direction would stir many ripples in the english media I guess.

I would have thought the Toronto Star might be the only paper that would give it more than a moment's notice. I'll check there and see what I can find.

The star has quite a bit of stuff, it'll take a while to wade through.
Here's the result of a 7 day search:
http://search.thestar.com/SearchWeb/Search.do?query=oaxaca&Submit2.x=12&Submit2.y=7&Submit2=Go

Note the story of a Victoria rally

It's the one by Susan Walker - Stirring up the fine art of outrage.

One of the Mexican youtube clips showed a rally in Vancouver, seemed to be on the front steps of the gallery, Georgia St side, maybe Robson; but like so many there it didn't get covered by the local media. I'm surprised given the Latin presence in Vancouver now that CBC-Vancouver hasn't picked up on it; as said before, maybe CBC Radio has - I don't listen to them anymore. But I'll be they're busier pitching for Afghanistan and cheerleading on distant continents, or about Quebec nationhood; the self-determination of the people of Oaxaca isn't an issue for them, nor is the nature of democracy and justice in a major trading partner and strategic ally (though they aren't part of NATO).

I still do listen - 6am news - to CBC Radio - and sometimes in the evening. You're right, nothing, or next to nothing.

November 5, 2006
A Week Later, Protesters Still Hanging On at University in Oaxaca
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

OAXACA, Mexico, Nov. 4 (AP) — Masked men with bats and gasoline bombs patrol the gates, and barbed wire and booby traps defile the campus lawns. Since protesters took over the state university in Mexico’s besieged Oaxaca City last weekend, there have been no classes, only talk of revolution.

The university of 30,000 students has become a stronghold for leftists trying to oust the Oaxaca state governor in a five-month conflict that has left more than 12 people dead.

Demonstrators poured into the university last Sunday after thousands of federal police officers pushed them out of the city’s main plaza, where they had camped out since May. Federal officers are not allowed to enter the campus under a law protecting academic freedom.

The university rector, Francisco MartÃ*nez, has made it clear that the police would not be invited in.

“We cannot consent for the campus to be an object of occupation,” he said in a radio message Friday. “I want to ask the federal government to be sensitive in its solution to the problem.”

Some critics say the university’s autonomy law is protecting rebellion.

Federal police officers backed by armored vehicles and helicopters surrounded the university on Thursday. Hundreds of protesters ran out, attacking with gasoline bombs, stones and fireworks stuffed with glass and nails.

The police fought back with batons, water cannons and tear gas, and threw back some rocks. After a six-hour battle that injured more than 30 people, the police retreated and the protesters claimed victory. But they fear that the police could return. “We are on maximum alert,” said Guillermo Contreras, a teacher and protest supporter. “We will fight their weapons with our spirit and dignity.”

Thousands of federal officers now patrol Oaxaca’s historic city center. Crowds of people flocked to welcome them when they first came in, but less than a week later, some residents say they are intimidated by their presence.

“It’s like we are living in a city under military occupation,” said Bernard Cruz, a store owner.

The protests began in May with a strike by teachers demanding better pay and work conditions in one of Mexico’s poorest states. When the police violently broke up a demonstration in June, protesters expanded their demands to include Gov. Ulises Ruiz’s resignation and were joined by leftists, Indian groups, students and others.

Mexico’s largest leftist group, the Democratic Revolution Party, said Friday that it would join the Oaxaca protesters in a demonstration on Sunday.

Some protesters say they feel safer in the campus than on the street.

“I feel scared even in my home, because people know my family are part of the protests,” said Cecilia Gomez, a 32-year-old school cleaner. ”Here we have the strength of numbers.”

Among those killed in the Oaxaca conflict was Bradley Roland Will, 36, an activist journalist from of New York who was shot in the stomach while filming a gun battle on Oct. 27.

Two officials of a municipality on the outskirts of Oaxaca are in custody in connection with Mr. Will’s killing, state officials have said.

On Friday, the press freedoms advocacy group Reporters Without Borders condemned “shortcomings” in the investigation into his death. The organization also said it had information that two Guatemalan journalists were missing in Oaxaca.

Skookum1:
Did you see David Rovics piece about Brad Will?

Let me know if you didn't and I'll post it in the other place.

The AP item you posted is verbatim the Toronto Star lead article. Despite the coverage of the "rebel" point of view, note the focus on nail bombs, bottle bombs etc, with no mention of the police tactics - which have met with a great deal of attention and criticism in the Mexican press; "masked men with baseball bats" is just as apt a description for those on the side of officialdom (in its varying degrees of legitimacy). Still presenting it in terms of the Mexican state trying to restore order by means of force, rather than seek a peaceful solution by negotiation with APPO, which was widespread public support and sympathy throughout Mexico. Throughout the politicized poor and the large range of Mexican radical elements, who are vocal and numerous, especially in Mexico City, which is "where it all goes down" in terms of the Mexican regime.

The next few days are critical, but I'm not betting on an easy transition to the Calderon presidency in December...Mexico's history doesn't bode well for its future, though, unless there's a sea-change down there something like glasnost had been for the Soviet Union, or the Truth and Reconciliation thing in South Africa...but that's kind of like asking Bush to suddenly become a Buddhist and renounce violence and empire; not very likely to happen. Mexico needs a Gorbacev, or a Havel; neither Obrador or Calderon fits the bill, and Vicente Fox's Tony Blair imitation - in the sense of a reformer, although as a liberal capitalist supposedly friendly to labour and democracy - just went down the tubes with the Battle of Ciudad Universitaria.

On the other hand, he has nothing to lose now, as a lame-duck president in his last month of power; he pretty well has ''carte-blanche'' to be as heavy handed as he wants, short of international pressure/decorum anyway. Not that it appears to matter much at present...

The bias is pretty evident - even when they seem to be trying to be even handed.

Fox is caught between a rock and a hard place until the changeover. My guess, he won't push too hard - the overall situation - from everything you've posted at least, could become full-scale country-wide civil unrest if he doesn't take it easy...he's never really been a reformer but he doesn't want to go down in history as the president who presided over a civil war either.

On the other hand, you may be right. What happens in the US on tuesday isn't going to make much difference to Mexico though, as far as I can tell. I just don't know enough about the basics of Mexican politics and culture. I'd say that half the voting population is still pretty upset about the election so it really could fall apart when Calderon comes into office.

If I were Fox I'd let him make the hard decisions.

Seems to me there was a story in the press a month or two ago about US troops being sent down to protect some commercial and industrial installations.

Have you heard any more about that?

Seems to me there was a story in the press a month or two ago about US troops being sent down to protect some commercial and industrial installations.

Have you heard any more about that?

All very interesting, that last bit. I'll ask indymedia or narconews maybe; major troop deployments are often relatively discreet in the press, as with pre-Grenada and pre-Haiti.

I'm sure Calderon is already pulling some strings over Fox; any political party in leader-transition has to do that, especially when it's an incoming regime, not just an incoming party leader. If Calderon's not all over Fox on what goes down, I'd say he's a fool; but Fox if anything I think wants to hold things off until Calderon takes power, so history can blame what happens on him.

"I'd think he'd want...."

I posted the story I found at the other place.

Shouldn't have been there in the 1st place,created a mess and now if US pulls out there will be a bigger mess.

But I like Glavins's discussion of the dilemma of the Left's "No War" ideology.

Terry, thanks again for your thought provoking article which questions the "president's choice club pack politically correct" mantra. Something they are not permitted to do in order to maintain membership.

My god, how right-wing is this nut? Glavin doesn't dissapoint in another B.S. article, attacking the left and supporting U.S. myths about "terrorists" and "democracy" in Iraq.

It's almost funny watching The tyee slowly slide to the right, with this and Jarred Farrie's article.

Daffy:
Obviously Glavin is right on because YOU read the article didn't you?
And anything that dares to differ with THE mantra is "right wing" isn't it? Thank you for proving my point!